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So, I flipped out almost four weeks ago when I learned that "setting better boundaries with my friend" translated into 1500 texts exchanged and over 5 hours on the phone in the course of 6 weeks, and when I flipped out, H went underground somehow with his contact. But he was open with me that he was still in contact with EAP.

We are now doing in-house separation but we have not yet put the official ground rules into place. I just hit my limit and told him to get out of my space. Since that day, I have seen two phone calls and a text on the bill, where I had seen NONE for the 3 weeks prior. He mentioned yesterday that he was soon going to tell her not to contact him and he would not contact her for the month that we are separated, so that he can work on fixing his shit. (I know, it's not a commitment to totally end it, but I believe it's a place to start from!)

I wonder if allowing these interactions to surface where they are visible to me is a sign that he is going to stop hiding things from me.

Am I mad that he called her for 41 minutes this morning? Of course. But it also kind of feels optimistic.

What do you all think?

Am I mad that he called her for 41 minutes this morning? Of course. But it also kind of feels optimistic.

I think his no longer hiding it means he has even more lack of respect for you.

He is "going to contact her soon about NC" Sure. Ok.

You feel these things are optimistic? I'm sorry, but it doesn't look/feel that way to me. He is choosing her over you. I know you want to believe he is changing, but I think you are grasping at straws.

What is happening *soon* that he needs to wait to go NC?

My hindsight being 20/20, I would kick him out during this separation. My biggest regret is that I did not do that with my WS when I found out he was still lying to me. I think your H needs to feel how life is going to be without you.

He wanted it to coincide with when we hammer out the ground rules with our MC. She also called him out that it didn't need to wait.

How is he not feeling now how life is going to be without me? We are separated and have not spoken to each other (outside of yesterday's MC) since Sunday night, essentially (four brief exchanges that were totally 180 and not even full sentence responses from me).

How is he not feeling now how life is going to be without me? We are separated and have not spoken to each other (outside of yesterday's MC) since Sunday night, essentially (four brief exchanges that were totally 180 and not even full sentence responses from me).

From what I have read, you are doing the 180 amazingly well! But it's not the same doing an in-house sep/180 as it is if he was forced out. Figure everything out by himself. Be ALONE. That's all I was saying. We didn't do either, so this is JMO without the experience to back it up.

I do think you are giving him too much credit because it doesn't seem as though he has really done anything as yet.

How is he not alone just because he didn't have to go stay in a motel? Also, he was forced out. When his behavior became unacceptable to me, I started the separation on my timeline, instead of letting him start it on his.

[This message edited by NoDoormat at 1:09 PM, May 30th (Friday)]

He wanted it to coincide with when we hammer out the ground rules with our MC.

Well a ground rule for being married is being faithful. It doesn't make sense to me that he can't cut it off with her until there are ground rules for separation. Sounds like he wants to keep her around and convince you that seeing others while separated will be OK.

Remember I am on the outside looking in only through what you have shared. But he doesn't sound like he is moving toward R at all.

How is he not alone just because he didn't have to go stay in a motel?

Because you are still living together. Sharing the same home, just not the same bedroom... unless I missed something.

If he was showing more of an effort, I wouldn't think you need to kick him out. And maybe the in house separation will work just as well - like I said, I don't have the experience, just an opinion.

Continuing the in-house sep & 180 is a step in the right direction.

Well, he isn't getting the benefit of the rest of the house. Just a small bedroom to sleep in and a bathroom to share with my cats. From what I can guess, he goes to the gym after work (I saw his truck there last night after MC) and then he comes home, showers and goes to sleep, then gets up and leaves for work early in the morning before I even get up. I don't think he's even using the fridge or the kitchen trash can. I think for all intents and purposes, it's like living in a motel, and then the rest of the time he's either at work or working on figuring himself out and fixing his own shit.

I think it's a great for you that he's being honest. The more honest he is, the easier it will be for you to see if he's a candidate for R.

I don't think the open contact is good for R, though. R requires remorse, and continued contact doesn't show remorse, IMO.

But I think you're closer to the best solution for you now.

(((ND)))

I think for all intents and purposes, it's like living in a motel, and then the rest of the time he's either at work or working on figuring himself out and fixing his own shit

...Or spending time chatting with his girlfriend

In house separation is not as impactful as real separation b/c you still have a foot in the door (literally and figuratively). You can still keep dibs on each other. You haven't had to fill out a change of address card, pack up boxes, sign a 12 month lease, pay a deposit. The implication and consequences involved in real separation are much stronger.

So, what if he agrees to go to MC this afternoon and will call the AP while we're there to tell her no contact for a month? Should I still agree to the in-home separation, or should I make him leave no matter what?

I wonder if allowing these interactions to surface where they are visible to me is a sign that he is going to stop hiding things from me.

I see that as a sign that he or she slipped up.

I'm sorry, but I don;t see anything optimistic about his behavior. He is saying things that he knows you want to hear, but he is still in contact with AP. I read this as him hoping you will cool off and allow him back in so that he can cake eat. HE is optimistic because you at least have not banned him from the home and still go to MC. And I am betting that his end goal is to get back to the sweet spot of the time before dday when he had both a wife and gf and the wife was ok with it, if only because the wife did not know about the gf.

Frankly, I do not see any remorse from your WS

I don't either, because he's ambivalent.

To me it sounds like while you are both on board with an R, he is still expecting that he'll be able to do what he wants, which is NOT okay.

I think you do need to show what he is losing. I mean once you're gone he will have to keep up with cleaning his place, cooking, doing laundry and all that.

I'm not cooking, cleaning or doing laundry for him!

So, what's the verdict? Should I throw him out entirely no matter what?

He mentioned yesterday that he was soon going to tell her not to contact him and he would not contact her for the month that we are separated, so that he can work on fixing his shit. (I know, it's not a commitment to totally end it, but I believe it's a place to start from!)

Gently.....this is a common wayward stance. I have read about it in infidelity and adultery books, I have talked about it in IC, and I witnessed it first hand as I watched my wife.

This whole idea that "I can just sort this out on my own...I just need space." is pure bullshit.

My wife expressed this idea to herself time and again. She expressed it to her sister before I had my first DD....she supported this idea that my wife could somehow just stop her A and sort things out with me........THEN decide what she would do.

Adultery is sexual sin. There is no sorting needed! What is needed is stopping and running like hell the other way. Period.

I know....I used porn. I know about sexual sin, I know about how it gets a hold of you, I know how white-knuckling and handling it on your own is NOT an option. Its foolish to think the same twisted mind that got you into that pit is the same one that will get you out all on its own.

I also am a recovering codependent. I know that drive and desire to be overly optimistic when it comes to your spouse. I choose poorly after my first DD. By my own actions I opened myself up to further hurt...helped drive that knife deeper into me.

Please don't do what I did.

180 was hard for me. But I learned how to do it. Now it seems elementary, but I struggled hard with it.

When you are doing it well you WON'T find yourself examining your spouses reactions to it. You will find you can breath again. You will find parts of yourself you subconciously lost along the way. It will feel better and better.

You also know you are doing it well when your counterdependent spouse starts to get angry and defensive. They DON'T want to change. But you changing will force them to change. Doesn't mean they will change in healthy ways....they could have another affair, drink, throw themselves into work....any of a number of selfish, destructive actions. But by the nature of a relationship they must change.

180 is NOT a manipulation tool. I suggest it is not a one time tool either. When done right it is a way to live. It creates a healthy person who can bond in healthy ways to others....and create the interdependence that M was created for.

Counterdependent folks LIKE their independence. Projecting some here....but that inhouse separation where your husband can be independent with minimal pain (especially if he is continuing to nurture his affair) is NOT healthy. It is what a wayward would be comfortable with that is still in their affair or within their fog.

My wife would have welcomed that as it would have reduced her pain. Honestly, if he did not dump her....I think my wife would have welcomed being kicked out. There was a real part of her that was "sorting things out" to the point where she was ready to destroy two families to feed what she thought was something very special and unique.

She is not that person anymore....but at the point where your husband is at....she was.

Is it really acceptable to you to wait for 4 weeks to see if your husband was in an "exit affair". He needs to grow a set and step up or step out.

The fact he is open with you about his continued contact with his EAP is NOT noble. It is degrading and manipulative.....a classic counterdependent tool.

I know....I have lived that nightmare.

Here is what helped me.

I put one of my daughters in my shoes....put her at my age, sitting on her bed, interacting with her husband who had been unfaithful to her. I watched her as she played my part.

It turned my stomach. I hurt so bad for her.

Then I asked why. Why was it okay for me to accept that sitch and all the pain it carries with it....and yet, when my daughter choose as I did, it was HORRIFIC and easy to see the destructive reality of it?

Codependency. Its why spouses stay in abusive situation.

IMO....your husband is abusing you right now.

Please find a good therapist. Ignore your husband as if he were a toxic chemical spill. You have not had a final DD yet. Until that happens you are not only in pain, you are suffering.

Until the suffering stops, healing can not start. Certainly R is out of the question.

I feel your pain. Texting was how I discovered my wifes affair. First DD, my wife was having an EA so it was infidelity but not adultery. I choose as you are choosing. I had a second DD. Wife took EA to the PA arena...adultery was now officially a part of our marital history.

My wife now says how she wishes she had stopped after my first DD.

Your husband doesn't realize it yet but he is hurting himself, he is destroying parts of himself. If this OW truly loved him (she doesn't, he doesnt) she would not willingly help destroy parts of him to his core.

Post often...find some RL relationship friendly girl friends to reach out to. Your husband has turned away from you...chase him at your own peril.

God is with us all.

Regret and remorse.

Honestly...my first DD had my wife finding only regret. Not regret over hurting me, our family, lying to her family and friends, hurting another fmaily with 5 kids under the age of 16....but regret over the relationship that I just killed. 'course, I didn't kill it....she scrambled and gave it first aide and revived it. I couldn't kill it. It was hers to do with what she chose. Your husband is clearly making a choice over and over and over...and it is not your M or family.

Remorse was months in the making......first scent of it wasn't until 7 months after my first DD. 2 months after he dumped her (how their affair ended after I made a visit to his front porch late at night) he found another OW to get into. Even that did not trigger a remorseful feeling within her. 12 months out remorse was growing.

Sounds like your husband hasn't even found regret yet. People don't continue to make the same choices they regret. He probably doesn't even think it was all that bad....its just an EA. Thats how my wife played it.....the whole "we're just friends" sled ride to the pit of full on adultery. Relationships are either growing or dying...they are not static. Your husbands total disregard for boundaries is not healthy for a M.

I'm sorry this is your trial. There is nothing good about his choices. They are consistent with wayward thinking and acting.

I know I am not supposed to have regrets....but I should have hefty bagged my wife immediately. But I was ill-equipped to handle what was forced upon me......totally surprised by it and broken in ways that had me extremely weak to defend myself against it.

Took me 2 months to even find anger. Yep, my wife was in an affair and I could not even get angry. I am posting as a man who stumbled hard....this post brings me back to my darkest moments.

I will say a specific prayer for you now.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 2:08 PM, May 30th (Friday)]

I think he needs stronger consequences and if you're asking for an opinion then yes, I would kick him out. I agree that he is looking at this like he still has one foot in the door. He can keep tabs on you and he knows you're waiting around for him to make up his mind. That lets him sit on the fence longer.

I'm not suggesting you play games. But I do think that physical distance from you will drive the point home quicker that he could really lose you. It will also give you some space to get your bearings. I have not done in-house separation, but I can imagine that it's pretty difficult. I'm sorry you're going through this.

Well, it definitely sucks, I'll give you that.

I am still waiting to hear from the MC whether the emergency appointment she had is still available.

When I texted him to ask him if he could make it, his response was "Why". I said, "Because I need it", and his response to that was "Fine". I have not responded yet, but you know I am wanting to tell him, "Well don't kill yourself being concerned over me!" Fuckhead.