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12 days since Dday, searching for the right course
Sorry to hear all of this. Your eldest child, other than WW getting angry that he was told does she not care and continues on going to class, etc? I witnessed a similar situation. All three kids saw their father(who committed the infidelity) as a empty shell of man and all the talk of marriage and trust was dispelled in a flash. He never recovered from it and walked the house more or less like a ghost. Disowned by his own children and rightly so. I suspect you WW does not realize she has probably lost a great deal more than just her H. Seems she was more interested in hiding her indiscretions than accepting the cold truth that what the eldest child believe to be good and true are more of a story with a bad ending. I'm astonished at her selfishness. In as such, I believe I would work on yourself and the kids leaving her to her own devices. It is obvious she cares very little of the consequences to her children.
Stronger hit the nail on the head. For goodness sake the OM teaches spin classes. Most likely, his motivation for his career choice is clear. He is a fox in the hen house. He has planted himself there for a reason. There is a continuous supply of potential candidates to hit on. There is a good chance that your WW meant nothing to him and that he has several others "on the side." If all of this is true, it will actually be a positive thing for your situation in the coming weeks because the OM may have never had any type of emotional attachment in the first place.
The reason that I write this is that it is similar to my FWW's A. She had boundary issues, was depressed,had low self esteem and mid-life crisis issues all at once. The OM realized her vulnerability and pounced. His only motivation was sexual and she meant nothing to him emotionally. After D-day and the fog lifted, my WW realized she had been played and was only one of many women that he was chasing simultaneously. She was embarrassed, ashamed and very remorseful and soon realized his true colors which helped make her one way attachment to him quickly die.
She needs to stop going to that same gym starting yesterday.
It takes time to know what the right course will be. Take care of yourself, breathe when those feelings surge up. Rest as much as you can. I could not eat much for a few months after dday and lost weight, but I could keep myself hydrated. You are down to the basics right now, just getting through the day.
My STBX was in the fog for a while and was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He kept me on the fence for a few weeks, but I saw the writing on the wall. I judged him on his actions, not on what he told me (which were mostly lies). His actions told me that reconciliation was not going to happen, so I saw an attorney and started divorce proceedings. That was nearly a year and a half ago and now negotiating the settlement.
Read the healing library. Post here often and get the support you need.
My son was 22 when Dday happened and he was so angry. He lost all respect for the STBX and felt betrayed by him as well. Now, we refer to him as the Dementor.
Life will get better, but it will take time.
Again, thank you for all of the support and guidance. My WW's feelings for her AP are strong. She admits to knowing that they are based on fantasy but also says that her mistake was getting involved with someone who was already involved. She states that she had "left me" long ago and that is what cleared the way for her to be open to other options. However, she called me yesterday and said that she wants to try and make us work. She proposed that we do our best to be together for 60 days and see how it goes. She has agreed to NC with the AP and has agreed to go to spin classes that are no where close to when he teaches. But she still refuses to stop going to this particular studio. I was not aware that she had moved so far away from me emotionally. I thought that it was distancing as a result of me going through depression. She is being brutally honest with me about her feelings. She is afraid that she will never feel "in love" with me again but that she wants to try and see if that changes.
It seems like implementing the 180 right now would be very risky. She doesn't have an emotional attachment to me and I think that distance would only cause that divide to widen. We do have 29 years of love, life and family that we might be able to build upon though. This has been, among other horrific emotions, a very humbling experience. She seems ready to walk away with or without me or her AP. She loves me and wants to try and make some progress for the sake of everything that we have invested and have to lose as a family. My survival instincts are telling me to give it my best shot but another part of me thinks that she will lose even more respect for me if I accept her proposal. In addition to that, my depression has been getting worse and I am trying not to panic. That is the last thing I need to be dealing with right now.
says that her mistake was getting involved with someone who was already involved
Really....THIS is what she thinks her mistake was?
Not her getting involved when she was already M? Not her not being their for you during your stuggle? Not getting help when she felt herself dying inside?
Nope....her mistake was picking an A partner who was taken?
Unless she agrees to your guidelines (ie ditching this gym, etc), she cannot give this an honest attempt for rebuilding.
She is still twisting it so it looks like you should feel 'grateful' that she is giving your relationship another chance.
She has it all backwards.
Edited to add....she felt herself pull from the M and be attracted to AP...then at six-months you enter into severe depression? Sounds like a direct link even though you were not aware why. Is that possible?
[This message edited by EvenKeel at 1:47 PM, June 12th (Thursday)]
Wow. Talk about no remorse. Not a hint or glimmer.
Hate to say this, but you should start D planning, like yesterday. She'll enjoy the cake with you at your expense as long as you let her.
Play good poker. She's bet 60 days. Call her and let her move out to see how she likes that single life chasing the involved Spinner.
Maybe she'll catch him, or maybe not. NOT your problem if you are planning for D.
She is so far checked out of M that R doesn't seem possible now.
My WW's feelings for her AP are strong. She admits to knowing that they are based on fantasy but also says that her mistake was getting involved with someone who was already involved.
Say what? This was only part of her mistake.
She states that she had "left me" long ago and that is what cleared the way for her to be open to other options.
Options are talking out the problem in the marriage or D. Not going to spin glass and having an affair with the instructor. That portion is not in the, "I care for you." handbook.
However, she called me yesterday and said that she wants to try and make us work. She proposed that we do our best to be together for 60 days and see how it goes.
Since when does she get to make proposals? You make them. As far as I can tell you did nothing wrong. You make the call.
She has agreed to NC with the AP and has agreed to go to spin classes that are no where close to when he teaches. But she still refuses to stop going to this particular studio.
Again, what? NC but still going to the same studio. Does this make sense to you? Not me.
I was not aware that she had moved so far away from me emotionally.
Because she did not attempt to tell you? Took a different road and formulated this emotional distance because the instructor was showing some attention?
I thought that it was distancing as a result of me going through depression. She is being brutally honest with me about her feelings.
When are you allowed to be brutally honest with yours?
She is afraid that she will never feel "in love" with me again but that she wants to try and see if that changes.
Sound defeatist to me and a losing propostion for you.
It seems like implementing the 180 right now would be very risky. She doesn't have an emotional attachment to me and I think that distance would only cause that divide to widen.
We do have 29 years of love, life and family that we might be able to build upon though. This has been, among other horrific emotions, a very humbling experience.
Not to mention two kids after 29 years and apparently the eldest horrified. I get the suspicion this means nothing to her.
She seems ready to walk away with or without me or her AP. She loves me and wants to try and make some progress for the sake of everything that we have invested and have to lose as a family. My survival instincts are telling me to give it my best shot but another part of me thinks that she will lose even more respect for me if I accept her proposal.
You make the proposal as you see fit. Not hers to make IMO.
In addition to that, my depression has been getting worse and I am trying not to panic. That is the last thing I need to be dealing with right now.
I hope she does not play on this to her advantage.
Wait a second, let me get this straight, she is giving you 60 DAYS to woo her back into the M?!? Are you kidding me?!?
And that was my second thought after I picked myself up off the floor over this gem:
her mistake was getting involved with someone who was already involved.
Dude, I would seriously give her like 60 seconds to decide, either she is married or you will proceed to divorce. Either all in or all out. Then turn on your heel and implement the 180.
And yes to what EvenKeel said, her "leaving you" likely played a giant role in your depression. I know in my case that was true.
I would buy a bunch of trash bags and start getting her stuff packed for her. She is not worthy.
Also, I would call the gym and let them know what kind of a dirtbag is in their employ. Just the moral thing to do. Take care.
ETA: My husband agreed to NC. Lied about it for 3 months, even to MC. I would not believe a single word.
[This message edited by Edith at 2:20 PM, June 12th (Thursday)]
Hey buddy I know it's hard because of 19 years together and I know you love her to death. Seriously you need to listen to these people I know it's going to go against everything you're thinking but if I can just give you one word of advice please follow these peoples advice... I cannot believe what she said that's what I get for falling for someone that's already involved she didn't even mention how she betrayed you and your kids. Look if you don't listen to these people and get a lawyer right now and file for divorce. Look at it doesn't mean you have to get a divorce. It takes a while to get a divorce. This might help lift the fog that she is in ... From what we all see on here she's done she shows absolutely no remorse towards you. And I know you're going to you might know better I know her they don't. Really is she the same woman you married for those 19 years. I bet you saying wow who is this woman. You have to be willing to lose your marriage to get back it. Please just listen to these people. They have your best interest in hand. Be advised listen to these people they can help you walk through this mess
My son and close friends are all telling me to rip the band aid off as well. My therapist is suggesting that I try to rebuild with her and to be patient with her right now as she gradually comes out of the fog. He says that we should mentally go back to the time when she felt herself really pulling away from me, about 1 year ago, and do now what we wish we would have done then. I wish I could muster the courage and strength to end the relationship but I still love her and miss her. I simply do not want to believe that this is the end. We have been together since I was 13. After all these years it is absolutely brutal to picture her with another man, but it happened and I am trying to accept it. But I am also hoping that this will not be the final chapter of our life together.
My son says that the only reason she is still with me is so that she can take her time preparing to live alone and hedge her bets while seeing if her AP has a change of heart and wants her back. It is so sickening to think that he, and all of you, are probably right on the mark. My son also says that the only way I will ever have a shot at getting her to want me again is to file for D and move on with my life. Depression is the most evil illness of them all. It has weakened me and caused me to lose so much of the confidence I used to have. Now, the person who I thought I could count on under any circumstances is not just watching me suffer, she is making it happen.
You have a son wise beyond his years.
Let me explain to you in plain English. I and everyone else posting on your thread have already been in the same place that you find yourself in right now. It sucks. Worse than anyone outside of your shoes (and ours) could ever imagine. I'm sorry you have the depression on top of the bull$hit but that is the hand you have been dealt. Again, it sucks. But right now, you have to deal with what is directly in front of you. Focus on nothing else.
Your WW is deep in the fog. Her words make no sense, her mind is jello and she is talking nonsense. You need to act and act decisively just as your son told you. You need to shock her into reality one way or the other. I would recommend exposing her A to her family. Are her parents living? If so, do you have a relationship with them? If so, tell them what she has done. A's are dirty little secrets that do not like the light of day. Exposure is your trump card. I know you would prefer to keep this embarassing chapter of your life private and not tell a soul. That is the natural reaction. But, in reality, this may well shock her back into reality. I did this even when it felt like the complete opposite of what I should do. And it worked like a charm.
Whatever you do, you need to stay strong and make sure she knows that your life will go on with or without her. You must learn to become an actor and cast aside your emotions right now. This is a tragic, traumatic time and your actions right now in the way you handle this are extremely important. She is acting like an ass with no remorse whatsoever. You have no choice but to shock her into reality. Tell people close to her what she has done. She will initially be furious but soon reality will set in. IMO, this is your best and only choice.
Well at least you can console yourself with the knowledge that you have raised a great son.
With respect: your wife is still with the skyfairies in unicornland.
You have come to this board seeking advice. You have been given it. The rest is up to you.
You need to present her with divorce papers and move on.like the others have said, she only regrets that she picked an I available lover who will make his living teaching spin classes.
She"ll pick better next time.
Your therapist is an idiot and you should dump him or her. Therapy is a subjective science not quantitative or exact and if you tell your exact story to ten of them you will get ten different opinions.
Now you are on trial for 60 days . How does that make you feel?? At the end of the 60 days , when she tells you that she still can't committed to you I would present her with the divorce papers and thank your so. For his good advice
Ohmyword does an excellent job of analyzing what you yourself post about her response.
I´m going to warn you in the most serious of terms about making one big mistake:
Don’t for a minute think you case is “special” and “different”.
I know that might sound tough but if you think your marriage is different, her affair is different and your situation is unique then there is no way you can take the collective wisdom here on SI and act according to our suggestions. Granted I will accept that there is one thing totally unique in your situation; namely that the affair is taking place in YOUR marriage. But her “reasons”, excuses, actions, responses, the OM responses, your responses… they are all storybook classics.
Heck – I venture that many of us old-timers can predict with +80% accuracy how things will develop. Those are betting odds friend.
Look – What do we know? What are known “facts” in your situation? Basically what shines through to me is that you have a person that consciously decided to detach from the marriage, have an affair and then cuts her losses by telling you about it when discovered by the OM GF. It didn’t end because WW wanted it to end. She didn’t tell you because she wanted to. This person then goes into damage-control and dictates the conditions to how and why she will remain in a marriage with you. She even has a timeline for how long you two will try.
Can’t you see how wrong this is?
This is like a thief that negotiates with you on how to return the goods in order to avoid jail – but still wants to keep some of the valuables.
I can tell you how this will develop if she has her way:
You two will find a way to coexist without dealing with the underlying reasons for why she had an affair. You will be full of insecurities that you can’t deal with because she won’t help you in solving them. If your marriage improves then she will constantly be thinking that it’s because she had the affair. A bad, negative and immoral act is turned into a “blessing”.
What’s more statistically a person that doesn’t deal with the underlying issues is 5 times more likely to cheat again compared to someone that hasn’t cheated.
So basically your marriage will be a time-bomb and only a question what happens first: You grow so subdued and resentful that you hate the marriage or she simply finds a new toy-boy.
I don’t believe in punishment. I don’t think you should take action to “punish” your wife for the affair. But you definitely need to take action to end the infidelity mentality and ensure the affair is over. This includes accepting the fact that if you don’t take action then you are doomed to live in infidelity forever.
Look at the words she used about her “mistakes”. I can’t see that she acknowledges that deciding to have an affair was not the appropriate response to supposedly losing emotional attachment to you. She basically is saying her decision to cheat was correct but her choice of lover wrong.
Are you going to let someone with this sort of “logic” dictate how to save your marriage? Think that’s going to work?
Friend: You really have to step up if you want a chance of saving the situation.
I think you have to realize the immense power you have. Your fear of losing your wife and losing all the years invested… Your wife has the same fears.
The difference between you two is that your wife (at the moment) wants to remain married for the security that provides but also have her lover(s) for the excitement that gives her. You on the other hand simply want to be married.
OK – so your fear losing her.
Is that really your biggest fear?
If so then why risk a 60 day trial period?
Why not make her an offer she can’t refuse; Tell her she can have all the lovers she wants only if she remains your wife. You could add details like ask her to use a condom, offer you occasional sex, act like she loves you. Could even ask her to be discreet so you can both act as if nothing’s wrong.
Does that sound like a plan? Sound good to you? Sound like something you can accept?
Well… If not then you need to realize your worst fear is not that you lose her but rather that she remains in infidelity.
Your WW insistence on going to the same spinning place really says it all. It’s like an alcoholic trying to quit insisting on doing his daily stop at the bar under the pretense of only drinking a soda. It’s only a matter of time before she feels secure enough to start associating with OM again.
Once you realize remaining in infidelity is the worst outcome you might find strength to act.
It’s an extremely significant moment when a betrayed husband has the strength to tell his wife that divorce is not the worst possible outcome, but rather having to share her. That she is totally free to do whatever she wants – she can attend any spinning class, have whomever she wants as a lover and seek whatever kicks she needs… but not as your wife. That she is totally free to choose: commit to the marriage (and that includes MC, IC, commitment to NC, cutting ties to the infidelity etc.) or acting in ways that confirm she no longer wants to be your wife.
You should also make it clear that YOU are willing to accept some blame for how things have developed and that you realize you will have to do a lot of work too, but until and unless she verbally and clearly commits to reconciliation on YOUR grounds then you will simply assume the marriage is over.
Then friend – you take steps to a) initiate the path of ending the marriage and b) actions to make the affair hard.
Like her insistence on going to the same spinning place? Well… why not a phone call to management threatening hell and high water if they don’t dismiss OM? (Trainers like him are a dime a dozen and he will have another job in a week. Not that it matters). Show your WW that her actions have consequences and you are not taking them lying down.
Divorce is a long, drawn out process. Starting the preparation, getting the required information, the arrangements of living conditions, separating accommodations…. This all takes time.
I told you early on we old-timers can tell you with +80 certainty how things will develop.
Follow the above advice and the initial reaction from WW will be to huff and puff and go along with having decided to divorce.
That will go on for 1-2 weeks.
As word goes out that she is in infidelity and what she’s been doing to you she will feel social pressure to reconsider.
When she realizes you mean business and when she realizes the social and financial impact of D then she will start returning.
Right now I give your marriages chances of recovery as 1 in 5 at best.
Follow the above advice and it goes up to 50/50.
She states that she had "left me" long ago and that is what cleared the way for her to be open to other options.Only an excuse to rationalize her wrongs into rights.
If she had left you long ago, why did she stay?
She has reluctantly agreed to NC with the OM. It sounds like the OM's GF put a stop to the affair.
Does your wife think she is still going to be with the OM even with his GF knowing about the affair, doesn't sound likely.
Make the affair hard to the point it isnt worth it for her to do anymore.
Thank you again to all of you who are taking the time to hear my story and give me support and advice. It is slowly dawning on me that my situation is in fact no different than all of the others that have come before me. Im having a hard time accepting it because she is the only woman I have been with for my entire life. I have never known an adult reality without her in it. As such, I have been breaking every rule of the 180 and not following the guidance that all of you have been providing. And, as you all know, it is not working. It is making it worse for me and easier for her to justify her A and prepare to move on without me.
We went out last night with a group of people to see if we could try and just have a decent time without talking about our issues. I was stunned by her ability to party like she was celebrating. I did my very best to play the role but the whole time for me was forced. She, on the other hand, was like a college kid on spring break. We got home late and there was not even a hint of possible intimacy. And during the night she pretty much ignored me with a few exceptions where she came over to stand next to me. Probably just to make it look good in front of our friends.
I know that I need to accept the reality that she has presented me. She has abandoned me during the most challenging time in my life as I have battled depression for the past 6 months. During this I have been begging her for her emotional support and love and instead of being there for me, she was giving her love to another man. Then, he ends their A and she still is showing no remorse or sincere desire to R. Her feelings for me are gone and now I have to find the strength to accept that and move on with my life.
I would like to think that if I were not battling depression that this would be easier. Because it feels like I have been run over by a train. I look at our neighbors and I get very emotional. Why did this have to happen to my marriage? Why can't we be at peace and happy like we were for most of our lives? Why has my wife become this selfish person? It feels like I am completely alone. That's why I have been trying to communicate with her to no avail. "Do you realize what is about to happen if you don't wake up?" It is like talking to a wall. Our family is going to be fractured, our home will be sold, our friends will know everything that has happened. I keep thinking that it's not too late, right now, if we both commit to working hard on R, we can do it. Crickets..... No, worse than crickets, she feels like I am smothering her and trying to control her.
My son has been phenomenal to me through all of this. I have contacted an attorney and I have the paperwork to begin the D process. She has also already hinted that she is not going to settle for anything less than what "she deserves". So this is probably going to be a fun process. Some of my friends have suggested that I should separate before deciding on D. I don't see how that would help in my situation. Separation seems right for two people who have similar opinions on the M, but here we have a totally one sided situation. Also, She is very unstable and has been drinking much more than usual. I would not be surprised if she had another A or ONS along the way. Separation would only delay the inevitable and provide her with more opportunity while still being married.
Hi Onguard. So much of what you say about your WW reminds me of mine. So, sending you strength & support, and hoping we can learn from each other. The very best of luck to you.
She has also already hinted that she is not going to settle for anything less than what "she deserves". So this is probably going to be a fun process.
More than likely, you are in a no fault state. The infidelity will have no bearing on the results of your divorce settlement. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't arm yourself with knowledge, and at least be aware of the probable outcome of a divorce.
Seriously, your wife could file today, and never look back. That is a real possibility. What you need to do is accept this as a possibility....not run away from it out of fear. Like Bigger stated, this is NOT the worst possible outcome.
I can't imagine how badly this depression is affecting you. I have never experienced depression, but from the horror stories I have read, I would wish it on no one. But if there is ever a time that you have to stand up, and face the brunt of reality....this is it. You CAN emerge on the other side as a strong, happy, and confident individual, but you must work past your fears. Obviously, much easier said than done----but still the truth, nonetheless.
Find your righteous anger. Channel it productively. You can do this.
My attempts to execute the 180 continue to fail. I had done it for about 36 hours and then she asked me if I would spend the night with some friends of ours at their lake house. I agreed. Again, once she started drinking it was like she was celebrating. Here I am trying to muster enough strength to not make it obvious that my entire life is crumbling and she is singing and dancing like its party time. She also was very outspoken on a couple of occasions regarding "doing NEW things and changing it up". I mean, it was clear that she was rubbing my nose in the fact that she is feeling liberated from marriage and is moving on to experience new things.
It hurts so much that the woman who I have known for over 30 years has turned into a selfish, heartless person who has no concern for her children or me. She is on this kick to do only what makes her happy now. She acts like she is on some liberated philosophical mission.
I am also convinced that there is still communication going on with her AP. She guards her phone like her life depended on it. When she isnt holding it, she sets it face down, always within eyesight. I have her pin but she has said that if I need to look into her phone that it will only push her farther away. The 180 says no snooping as well. Also, there are apps now that can allow her to text without any trace. One is called iblacklist. It is touted as being almost undetectable. You don't even see it on the phone as the app itself is disguised. Either way, it's not about me proving that she is still involved with her AP. It should be about her proving to me that she is not. If I feel insecure about her then I need to decide that she has chosen not to continue with our M.
She has been very clear with me that her feelings for me are more like a brother than a spouse. She is not sure if she will ever get those feelings back. I'm having a very hard time accepting that this is really the end. But at this point what would I really be losing? She has not been there for me emotionally in over 8 months. She has not been loving or intimate with me for over 6 months. She has given her heart and body to another man while I suffered from a horrible depression. She has not done anything to make me feel loved or happy in a very long time. So why am I still so afraid to end my M? I am hoping that she has a complete change of heart and returns to provide me with love and happiness.... Hope is not a strategy. I have to be willing to lose my M if I have any chance to save it.
My son is convinced that I should file for D. He says that it is the only thing that is going to slap her hard enough to wake her up. And he is certain that she will be scared to death if I did. "But even if she isn't, who cares, there are so many better people for you to love than her." "She is my mom and I think she is a horrible person, what does that tell you Dad?" He does not want to see us R but is willing to support me if that is what will make me happy. I am so lucky to have such a great son!