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12 days since Dday, searching for the right course

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craig2001 posted 6/19/2014 16:45 PM

What happened to the 60 days together to see if "we" could work it out.

Seems like all she wanted to was have a place to stay for the next 60 days.

It is very hard to say why and how someone can change just like that, I don't have that answer and would be very rich if I did. But it seems to happen often.

Since she is the one who said lets try and work this out and NC with the OM, why dont you ask her why she is not doing anything that she promised. It does appear she cannot keep the simplest of promises.

It must be bad for your son to say those things. And you are lucky you have his support.

Do what you need to know, otherwise you might be sorry looking back 10 years from now.

doggiediva posted 6/19/2014 17:15 PM

I know the feeling of depression..It is hard enough to get motivation to go out to a movie with friends or do something else nice for yourself on a given day, much less do/make any life changing decisions and interventions for yourself..

Family support and the support of trusted friends is one way out of this rabbit hole (depression)..It is awesome that your son is wise and supportive of your needs, but he runs the risk of being pulled in two different directions someday because he is too close to ground zero and how it affects him...These questions might run through his mind someday..."Do I help mom or do I help dad?" "Mom is mad at me because I helped Dad" KWIM?

So I would say find plenty of IRL support and continue 180ing your WW..This will help you get a stronger clearer head...
That 60 day trial is a stupid ludicrous proposition..I got one of those from my WH' too...I had until his next birthday to ship up or he was gonna want out of our marriage..Too bad he didn't leave..I wish he had..Instead, we are in house separated until I have my ducks in a row to leave...

LifeisCrazy posted 6/19/2014 17:39 PM

You want to know why she's still flaunting herself? Why she continues to act the way she does? Because she's not scared of you.

She thinks you're a chump - someone who's so in love with her that he can't stand up for himself.

Well, one of the main things that you will see throughout all of the posts here is the absolute need for strength. To be a man - no matter how much it hurts - and start demanding certain actions. DEMANDING them. Not negotiating, but demanding.

"Wife, by lunchtime I have all your passwords for every device you own. Period."

"I'm not living my life like that."

"Fine - then get the fuck out." And pick up her pocketbook, her coat, her phone and throw them out on the street.

Tell everyone. EVERYONE. Stop being nice. Stop being considerate of her - has she been considerate of YOU?

I am in the minority here but I am perfectly fine with letting her know that if she doesn't get out of the house immediately you're going to sit down and let your 13 year old know what she did. It is gloves off time, baby - and Papa has come to fight.

Bigger, as usual, is right. She's free to screw whoever she wants. But not as your wife. She made certain vows to you and if she doesn't want to keep them - fine. But she doesn't get to live under your roof at the same time.

File for divorce, as many have said. Remember, that doesn't mean that you will GET divorced - but it is time to show her that her clock is ticking and it's decision time.

The funny thing is - almost all here will agree that when you start acting strong, when you lay down the law ("We are going to IC. You have no say in it if you want to remain married.") things have a strange way of turning around.

What you don't want - the very, very worst option - is to be married to someone who has checked out of the marriage. Force her to make a decision, one way or the other.

Good luck, brother.

Onguard posted 6/21/2014 22:20 PM

Well, this morning my WW went to the 10am spin class even though her AP teaches at 11am and it's almost certain that they would see each other. When she got home I told her that I was hurt about her decision. She proclaimed that she is going to make decisions based on what she wants to do and not concern herself with what anyone else thinks. It's her life and if I don't like it then too bad. I reminded her that she had promised NC. "I was not there to contact him, I was there to work out." She then proclaimed that IF he tried to contact her that she would want to talk to him in order to get closure. The A ended when he suddenly texted her that it was over and that she should not attend any more of his classes. She says that he had said some "interesting" things to her the day before he ended it. She would not say exactly what he said but indicated that it was something about a future together. Now, I want my WW to come back to the M and try to make it work, but it is becoming more and more clear that she wanted a long term future with her AP and that is a bitter pill to swallow.

With regards to her earlier proposal to try and get along for 60 days... I told her that unless she was feeling sincere remorse for the A as well as make a commitment to the marriage then I was not interested in her proposal.

I have also exposed her affair to one of my closest friends who told his wife. His wife immediately called my WW and engaged her about the A. My WW went nutz! I told her that I was perfectly justified to ask my friend for support. WW has her entire family to support her and I have my Son. I asked my friend not to tell his W but he did anyway. I'm not sure if this will end up being a good move or a bad one.

My 180 continues to fail. I cannot believe how hard it is to stay away. I am going to try my very best again tomorrow. It must be the depression that is causing me to be so focused on "fixing things". I must find the strength to back off and be patient.

My WW is really in love with her AP. She is furious that he ended it so abruptly as well as banished her from his classes by choosing his OW over her. When my WW talks about it I can see the anger in her face. And if I dare to comment about how he is a professional player she is quick to tell me that I don't know him or what they had. And yes, she does not fear me or respect me. 2 days after Dday she sent me some texts full of remorse and a sincere desire to R. But since then (about 3 weeks) she has done the 180 on me! No remorse, no R. Just, "I need time and space to focus on me. We cannot do this while we are both living in the same house, you should leave for at least a month." Her IC told her that she should not commit to anything until I have overcome my depression. What!? Her IC also said that my mental health is not her issue. Now, I agree with that in theory but when you get the bomb of infidelity dropped on your head it tends to affect your mental health a bit! I don't want her to commit to our M unless she sincerely wants it, obviuosly. But to say that she should wait until I am fully healed from the knife wound before she helps me pull out the knife is insane!

Thank you all for your knowledge and support.

ZedLeppelin posted 6/21/2014 22:26 PM've done nothing?

Schadenfreude posted 6/21/2014 22:40 PM


Have you read and understood a thing anyone has said to you here?

She has checked out, is stalking the OM who kicked her to the curb.

She couldn't care less about how you feel. She only cares that you provide a roof over her head. Her initial texts about R reflected her justifiable fear that you'd toss her to the street. That didn't happen, she saw your weakness, and all thought of R was quickly forgotten.

There can be no R when one spouse doesn't want R. She wants OM.

Fog? Sure. But you are the victim. She's blaming you by probably falsely quoting or providing false information to her IC. You yourself say she's in love with him. Believe her actions you've seen.

Quit describing him to her. She loves him, not you, and won't believe a word you say. Player, cheater, none of those words mean a thing to one who believes she has a "special" relationship going on.

Forget 180 and drop divorce papers on her. She'll either bolt or change. You'll be out of Limbo/Hell.

If you can't consider doing this, you will eventually regret it.

Google Myth of Sysiphus. Greek myth about a dude condemned to spend eternity pushing big rocks up hill all day, only to have them fall down and the next day he pushes them back up again only to have them fall down, forever! You might take a lesson.

YOU did NOTHING WRONG. If her tender feelings require space, let her move her spinning ass out, not you.

She's still in high school -- plotting to recover the boyfriend who dumped her. That's her focus. Let her think about that all by her lonesome self.

Badhurt posted 6/21/2014 22:49 PM

Schadenfreude just put it straight to you. Again, there is no such thing as R with someone who still wants the OM and to be in the affair. If this guy breaks up with his girlfriend and wants to get laid tomorrow she'll be right there for him.. First, she outs you on trial for 69 days, now this latest behavior.
No one can give you advice or help you if you want to stay paralyzed I to doing nothing.
Here you are in your 60 day R period, and she is parading her ass up to spinning class where he cannot a avoid her. How much more humiliation are you going to out up with.
She needs to be knocked off the fence or out of your house
You can post here 1000 times and that will not change. You can't R with a woman who could give a crap about you and is chasing another man.
File the Damm papers and stand up for yourself

Calabro posted 6/22/2014 01:14 AM

One simple question. How does your staying with a women have no respect or love for you going to help with your depression ?

Onguard posted 6/22/2014 07:32 AM

I appreciate the 2x4's. I need something to jolt me into a different course of action, clearly. She says that she needs time and space to "figure herself out". She is open about the fact that she emotionally checked out of the marriage about a year ago and that her feelings for me are not there right now. She admits to being in pain over the loss of her AP. She firmly believes that our marriage was "terminally ill" due to neglect even though I have tried (bad idea I know) to point out how many good times we had over the years. So ending the M would not have a really big impact on her emotionally right now.

I know for a fact that I need to stay away from her for a while. I'm just wondering if filing for divorce right away is the best idea. I want to save my marriage but I agree that divorce would not be the worst outcome. The worst would be to live in infidelity with a woman who didn't want to be with me above all others. She says that it is over with her AP and that she will not contact him. But her actions yesterday said otherwise. When I asked her what she would do if he contacted her, first she says "that's not going to happen." Then she says, she would tell me. Then she says, "I would want to talk to him and get closure." She is in love with him, will this fade over time? She is not in love with me, will this come back over time? Should I be patient with her while she sorts herself out and give her time and space? As suggested by a couple of IC's. Or should I drop divorce papers on her and force the issue. She is not in love with me right now so it seems logical that trying to force it would only make things worse.

Kicking her out of our home would be tough. We have a 13 year old and I travel on business quite a bit. If someone is going to leave the home it would have to be me. ZedLeppelin asked what I had done. Other than divorce, what can I do? I can ignore her, move out, expose the A or divorce. In the meantime, my heart is broken, I am suffering from horrible depression, 3-4 hours of sleep a night, no appetite, no confidence. What a nightmare to have to deal with this during a bout of depression. The old me would be doing things very differently but now I have dug a deep hole.

hard_yards posted 6/22/2014 07:44 AM

Onguard, I'm so sorry you find yourself dealing with this, but deal with it you must.

Some of the posts are quite hard hitting, but, as hard as it is to read, it's all true. There's no need for guess work here, there's always a depressing sameness in how these things play out. The predictions are accurate, because you're on a well trodden path, it's all happened before and been said, over and over again.

You really need to stop conversing with her, stop telling her how you feel, how you're hurting, she doesn't care. 180, 180, 180......

Don't hang around the house hoping she'll have a "come to Jesus" moment, it's not going to happen as things stand right now.

The only hope in changing her current behaviour is to make continuing it very uncomfortable for her.

Cancel her credit cards if they are secondaries to yours, take half of any saving/investments and put them where she can't access them. If you pay for her phone, cancel it. Tell people who might influence her, what's going on, nothing like a cold harsh dose of reality to wake someone up. Let her feel the derision and disgust of others, her fantasy life might not seem like cloud nine after all.

Tell the OM's wife, if she doesn't already know he's a serial cheat she deserves to know the truth.

One of the main things to protect is your self-respect, sometimes it's all you've got and it's taken a direct hit over this. It's no wonder you're feeling even more depressed.

You simply must let go of the outcome, let her fall/fail alone, you will never win, love or nice her back to the marriage. Care for yourself first, protect your heart, get some help to deal with your depression, it's clouding your judgement, and preventing you from making realistic decisions for yourself.

We all feel for you, dealing with this is something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

You are only 44, there's a huge future out there for you, plenty of time to find someone who loves and respects you, when you're ready, should you wish to.

Remember this too, your WW is infatuated with a man who doesn't want her.... she's in for a massive fall, it's not your job to be holding the safety net for her, he doesn't want her...... after this, why should you?

Hugs man, take care of yourself.

Badhurt posted 6/22/2014 07:54 AM

Again, your depression is not going to go away while you allow her to do this to you. Sure she says she won't contact him again. What do call going to spin class in her little exercise outfit when she knows he has to be there ? She is trying to lure him back. All it is going to take is one phone call from this guy and you really think she will not sleep with him again. ?
So you are at the total mercy of her spinning instructors libido.
How could you not be in a state of depression
By pointing out all the good times, all you are doing is begging her to love you and want the M.
I don't know what idiots you are seeing in IC, but you need to read the threads of advice on here about BEFORE YOU RECONCILE. It can't be done with a WS that does not want to give up the AP. If the statements she has made to you do not change there will be another AP after she gets over this one because you are PLAN B.
You can use your child as rationale for putting up with this . You will wind up giving yourself a serious medical problem if you continue this..
She is NOT your wife now. She is a woman living in your home trying to figure out a way to continue her relationship with another man. Divorce does not happen overnight, but it has to start with you pulling the plug on this shit.
How long can you exist on three hours of sleep a night and work and travel. ???
She is making it easier for you by being so shitty.
Do what you need to do. You have no chance to win her back with what you are doing

[This message edited by Badhurt at 7:56 AM, June 22nd (Sunday)]

hard_yards posted 6/22/2014 07:59 AM

We must have been typing at the same time!

First off, do not move out of the house, this can have implications further down the line. I don't know where you are, but please, get yourself off to the best divorce lawyer you can to find out the facts should you end up dealing with a divorce, knowledge is power, and you need power.

Read the 180 and live it, it'll help you become stronger, with a clearer vision of what you will and won't accept... stop letting her dictate what's going to happen.

As for closure yeah, right.... that'll help her.... rubbish, their paths should never cross again if she had any honest intention of trying to begin to address what she's done to your marriage.

And that alone should be a deal-breaker....

Please, if you haven't already, get yourself along to your Dr and get some meds to help you deal with this and your depression, find a great IC for yourself, infidelity takes a huge toll on your physical and mental well-being.


jb3199 posted 6/22/2014 08:30 AM

I want to save my marriage but I agree that divorce would not be the worst outcome. The worst would be to live in infidelity with a woman who didn't want to be with me above all others.

The worst scenario is EXACTLY the one that you are living---one with a remorseless spouse, who is flaunting her "power" in your face. She is almost taunting you with her actions.

Every member here can scream at their computers for you to start listening to what we are saying, but ultimately, you have to make the conscious decision to want to get better. You have to put you and your children first, and stop trying to win your wife back. It will never, ever, happen.

One part of what makes this so difficult, is time. While it has only been weeks since you have joined here, it seems like an eternity of inaction on your part, because your posts are full of the wrong things to do. We get that, and understand it, but that still doesn't change the facts that things will not only fail to improve for you, but will only get worse, if you continue on this path.

I like LifeisCrazy's post, although legally you cannot kick her out. But it show you taking control of yourself, and standing up for what is right. While you legally cannot throw her out of the house, you can throw her shit out of your bedroom...and tell hell to sleep wherever else she wants. On the couch, on the floor, AT HER FUCKING LOVER'S HOUSE....but not in YOUR room. These are the little parts of taking back control of your life.

Stop focusing on how to get her back into the marriage. Focus on how to get her OUT of the marriage, so your healing can continue. If she wants to come back to you later, with a desire to R, then, and only then, should you even entertain that thought. But without a partner that has your best interests in mind, why would you want anything else?

As cold as this may seem, 29 years means nothing, if your partner thinks of it as nothing. You can't build on the past if you both aren't committed. And not only is she non-committal, she is anti-committal...because she detests you...due to HER brokenness. Not only can't you reconcile with that, you can't live a life like that.

Not only do you need to continue working on your 180, you need to work on No Contact(or as little as possible) with her. There is no reason to engage her while she is like this.

Stop trying to save what she does not want saved.

craig2001 posted 6/22/2014 12:34 PM

She firmly believes that our marriage was "terminally ill" due to neglect even though I have tried (bad idea I know) to point out how many good times we had over the years.
First of all, this is an excuse, nothing more than her excuse to rationalize her wrongs.

This is a lie, an excuse. She could have and should have talked to you about the marriage situation BEFORE she had an affair and made your life a living hell.

Look at her and tell her these things. She made the choice to completely ruin the marriage. Instead of having an affair, she could have worked with you on the marriage or just said she wanted a divorce.

Instead she took the selfish way out. She had an affair and might or might not have real feelings. But this is nothing more than an excuse to justify her completely and totally wrong actions.

Do not look back and think you could or should have done this or that. You were lied to. When someone is lied to, they do not know otherwise, all because she lied to you.

Lies are so devastating, that they are actually against the law in many cases.

Her lying and lies is what ruined your marriage.

self-rescuer posted 6/22/2014 20:05 PM

I know you feel overwhelmed by all these hard- hitting suggestions.

The truth is, that the process of coming to terms with your new reality is slow and arduous.

But this I can guarantee - once you take back your power and foster self respect, once you believe in your worth and show your children your strength - whatever the marital outcome - you will begin to heal.

Bigger posted 6/23/2014 04:13 AM

Oh man!
Not sure if I should post… Sort of feels like punching someone after he’s already been hit by Mike Tyson. But I can’t really stand and watch this scenario without at least trying…

First of all:
I want to apologise for what I said in my first post to you. I told you that we old timers could predict with 80+% accuracy how things develop. I then gave your present situation a 1/5 chances of surviving.
Sorry for giving you that glimmer of hope because IF YOU DON’T ACT… you really don’t have ANY chance at all. Not 1/5, not 1/10 but plain and simple ZERO – NADA – NULL.
And I’m willing to say that with not 80% accuracy but with 100% confidence.

Other than divorce, what can I do?

More or less every single post above mine makes some suggestion on what to do. There might be some variances in the steps – IMHO some make more sense than others – but basically even the worst suggestion put forth is better than doing nothing.

Go back to my post. I make some detailed suggestions on what to do.

I don’t support throwing her out. First of all it’s probably illegal and second it will be seen as domestic violence by a court.

Consider starting by doing this:
List the suggestions made by us posters.
Post the list along with your response on what’s keeping you from following the suggestion and/or any question you might have.

Onguard posted 6/23/2014 10:16 AM

Thanks to all for taking the time to help me throught this living hell. The 2x4's are needed. I am disgusted with myself for being so docile. I hate to keep making excuses but I was never like this before depression. I also know that there is no more time for excuses. No matter how much it hurts or how alone I feel I must take steps to protect myself and my children.

Bigger, you have given me some great advice so I will do exactly as you suggested and list out the actions posted and my thoughts about those actions:

See an attorney. I have talked to an attorney and have the preliminary paperwork. However, I still have not had a face to face meeting to discuss my legal rights to do things like cancel credit cards, cell phone or divide up joint accounts. My WW does not know about this. She thinks I have only done research on the web.

180. I have started and stopped but mainly I have failed. I am on day 2 since falling off the horse on Saturday. I am commited to staying the course from here forward no matter what.

IC. She just started this.

Inform the studio about the affair. She is extremely addicted to this studio. For years this has been her passion. I believe that if I were to inform the owners of the studio that she would leave the home and file for D and it would get ugly. This would be a step I would take as a last resort before D.

Exposure. Her family knows, my son knows, two of our closest friends know. A few of my own personal friends know. I have not blown the lid off yet however.

File for D. I feel like it is a little early to do this and I would like to successfully implement the 180 for a period of time as well as meet with an attorney to take steps to separate our finances first.

Throw her out of the bedroom. She and I
have been sleeping in separate rooms for 6 months.

Tell her to move out. Possible but complicated. We have a 13 year old daughter and I travel during the week. I would rather not physically separate unless we are going forward with D.

Here is how I see it right now:

She gradually fell out of love with me due to not having her needs met. Neglected.

She began to fall in love with her AP because they have a shared passion and he was showing her attention and making her feel good about herself when she was starving from neglect.

I was hit with depression which made me appear dependent on her for my survival. I sensed her distancing and I pursued, begged and tried to reason with her. This only pushed her farther from me and more towards her AP. (5 months).

Now her AP has broken off the affair and she has told me about it. She said that she wanted to work on us and her initial reaction showed sincere remorse and a desire to R. My initial reaction, as expected, was to express shock, anger, pain, confusion. This pushed her away. Then I pursued which pushed her even farther away. Which is why she now says that she does not have "in love" feelings for me and wonders if they will ever return.

It feels like I need to do a hard 180 for myself right now and see how things go for a month or so. I need to meet with an attorney and initiate steps to protect myself financially and make it uncomfortable for her.

This will hopefully help her to see me getting stronger and more independent. It will also give her time to think about her choices and actions as opposed to resisting my attempts to control her and win her back. It will give her time to get over her feelings of loss for the A.

The big question I have is whether or not to file for D right away. The posts all say that I should do this in order to shock her into reality. But based on her emotions right now I think this could backfire. I want to try to R but she is on the fence. To her, right now, the M does not look appealing. Doesn't it make sense for me to give the 180 a serious effort before filing? Maybe she will value me and our M more than she does now. (It cant get much worse). It will allow me to regain some confidence and self esteem as well.

Schadenfreude posted 6/23/2014 10:29 AM

From your posts, it appears,that you aren't doing a 180' maybe a 30 or even a 45' but not much more. Far too much discussion of how she feels, how she views the m, what went wrong in her view, and the like. If you care about and discuss with her what she's feeling, you're far from a 180. And now you're fearful she'll file for divorce.

Even you have admitted D is not the worst outcome.

Everything you've done has pushed her further away. Why? She doesn't care how you feel. You should start calling her MeMe instead of her real name.

She's on the fence? Only because OM dropped her. Al he has to do is smile at her, ask for for a,quick roll in the hay, and she's gone.

Her actions, and not her feelings, should be all that matters. File and serve the papers. See if she'll try to salvage this M and see if you can, long term, accept her horrible actions.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 10:34 AM, June 23rd (Monday)]

Badhurt posted 6/23/2014 10:31 AM

On guard

You are rationalizing again for reasons not to do it, hoping that if you do not piss her off she will come out of fog. That is not going to happen. The 180 is proving more difficult for you than her and would be more likely to work if she showed any sign of remorse. She is not.
While you give her this time , she will continue to not provide you with anything to help your needs, no companionship, no sex if you are in separate bedrooms. So basically , you are just hanging around with your guts churning while she has fun at parties and goes about her life like normal.
What is more likely to happen is that while you are twirling your thumbs waiting to see if she wants planb , she continues to parade herself in front of him hoping to rekindle the A , and if you do not think she is doing that you are in Disneyland.! Remember, he broke it off because his gf caught him. Your WW had no intention. Of breaking it off and would have him again in a New York second.
Of course the D papers would piss her off. Aren't you pissed off?????
You can stop the D anytime you want to. Being a patsy will not make her love you . And you will not be told the truth about what her IC tells her or what she tells them. Don't be surprised if she tells you her IC said what she is doing is fine until she " finds herself". Meanwhile you continue to get shit sandwich.
You will NEVER know for sure what will happen if you do this or that. The only thing you do know is what IS happening while you do nothing

craig2001 posted 6/23/2014 10:35 AM

She gradually fell out of love with me due to not having her needs met. Neglected.

She began to fall in love with her AP because they have a shared passion and he was showing her attention and making her feel good about herself when she was starving from neglect.


Reverse it for one thing. The affair started or her wanting an affair started before she fell out of love for you.

The OM is always poisonous. They are the ones that put even more negative thoughts towards the WW marriage. Of course, how else do you think they keep the affair going to get what they want.

The OM is every bit as selfish as the WW.

Your wife is starving for attention from other guys. This has nothing to do with you neglecting her.

I was hit with depression which made me appear dependent on her for my survival. I sensed her distancing and I pursued, begged and tried to reason with her. This only pushed her farther from me and more towards her AP. (5 months).
Wrong again. Remember the wedding vows through sickness....

I have wondered why a needing position always seems to push the WW to the OM. But I think it is more of a show of making the affair easy.

Because being a hard ass instead of showing need, makes the affair hard to continue versus trying to nice her back.

Your depression pushed her to the AP. BS

It rains and the WS runs to their AP. A hard day at work, the WS runs to the AP. WS is having a bad hair day and they run to the AP.

DO not believe for a second your depression had anything at all to pushing her to the OM.

Show her independence. Close all joint accounts and credit cards. Does she work?

Always remember this the next time you think the OM showed her attention that you were not.

How hard is it to be in an affair. How hard is it for the affair to be more fun that being at home.

It is not hard, in fact it is very easy.

Does the OM have to pay her bills? No
Does the OM have to put up with her when she is sick? No
Does the OM have to constantly hear from her how he is neglecting her or asking too many questions? No
Does the OM have to worry about the mortgage payments or a sick child? No

Affairs are easy and phony!

And just because she said the OM ended the affair, doesnt mean it is true. You need to verify that before you can even consider the thought of R.

Make the affair miserable. Make her pay all of her own bills.

Who pays for this gym that she is so in love with going to?

If you are, stop immediately.

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