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User Topic: I have seen evil
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 5:12 AM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As my WS shares the details of the EA from almost three years ago, I am coming face to face with the darkest, most evil capacity of a human being. It's horrendous to me that I have experienced this first-hand. Not from WS, but from AP1.

While I realized long before I knew my WS was even in an EA with this person that she was manipulative, I had no idea the extent. I was severely depressed, dealing with both my third miscarriage and being harassed at work. WS and I were in therapy to address issues in the relationship and I was working hard to overcome my depression and be a better partner. I shared personal information with AP1 as a way of processing and finding some support through it. Months prior we had become friends through church because I brought her and her partner dinner when she had surgery. Anyway, she listened and was compassionate. She offered empathy and let me feel safe. It turns out that she began texting and talking to my WS for a couple weeks about her life, how funny my WS was, etc. Of course no one told me any of that. As I opened up, she began telling my WS things I was saying. Let me be clear that I was sharing my worries about WS's fears about what I felt and thought along with what I really felt and thought. She wasn't just telling WS what I was saying, but twisting what I said to confirm WS's fears. If she shared the truth, WS's fears would have been alleviated. Worse, I was sharing in our couples counseling my true thoughts and feelings about most of it, anyway. AP1 was telling both of us individually how abusive and controlling her BS was. Because I felt bad for her (and stupidly secure in my relationship) I encouraged WS to compliment her from time to time because AP1 was telling me she felt unattractive because OBS wasn't giving her any positive attention. Ugh! Of course WS and I talked about it, but WS never shared information she was getting independent of me , even before AP1 made it clear she was attracted to her. "Grooming" us might actually be the perfect term here. I also told AP1 that WS "saved" me from an emotionally abusive relationship. So by the time she began telling WS that she was attracted to her, the groundwork was laid. WS couldn't come to me about it because then she would have to reveal the secret conversations, feel responsible if AP1 got "beat up" by her BS, and address the information she believed from AP1 instead of me. During the same amount of time I cannot tell you the number of arguments we had because she was stirring the pot by telling me things WS did or said when I wasn't around (twisting that, too). However, we had arguments because I respected WS enough to bring it to her. Just before everything "blew up" back then, I said to WS, "I think she's trying to drive a wedge between us." My WS's response, "Nobody can drive a wedge that isn't already there." Such a nondescript answer left to open interpretation, of which I took to mean that AP1 "couldn't" drive a wedge. I was so very wrong.

Ultimately, it was Hitler-like brilliance! She even presented herself as flaky and unintelligent, which I totally question now. She also made attempts to distance me from other friends. I am not saying that WS is not at fault. She made a huge mistake not disclosing the contact, to begin with. She made a horrible mistake not telling me what she had been told, letting me continue to be friends with her, continuing her contact with her, and continuing the couples friendship we had. She allowed this person to manipulate the situation by not protecting her relationship or me. And WS final mistake? Not coming clean when it did blow up. We were in therapy! So when she told me that AP1 just "out of the blue" propositioned her by text and the OBS found them at a party where all our friends (and our child) were in attendance while I was out of town, I just accepted it like an idiot. I actually said (and WS let me), "I know you would never do that to me, baby." And it felt so f&*king good at the time.

So, I have seen the devil. I have brushed up against her, felt her presence, been duped by the emotional "need" I had at time, witnessed the dance and seen the blackness of a person with no soul. I'd like to say she will have a miserable life, but I know better. Nobody without a soul will truly ever know what misery is. I feel bad for the people around her, as they will know that kind of misery. She's not just a waste of skin, she is a cancer in society, who's mind and behavior developed in a way to wreak havoc on good, kind, well-intentioned others experiencing great vulnerability. Her purpose in life? To make us aware of how our vulnerabilities make us capable of the worst type of damage we can inadvertently cause those who love we love and love us back. The only weapon we have against them is love, trust and honesty. That kind of evil cannot survive transparency. It can't see the light of day, as it must lurk in darkness and secrecy to live.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:33 AM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Re:
Nobody without a soul will truly ever know what misery is.

I understand how this can be believed. Looking deeper, we see that

1. They live with a constant, inner sense of loss, not having a core. A peek inside their minds would reveal the hamster of true identity frantically, desperately seeking a way out of the self-wrought prison of their starved souls with its narrow stifling walls. The life which is thus restricted within must seek meaning and purpose from that which is without. They live in constant misery. Thinly veiled at times by external ephemeral entertainments they use as blandishments for their dying thirst for true meaning.

2. In the end they truly will see justice. They will drink to the dregs the cup of pain they spent their lives inflicting on others - to the last half drop. We will take no joy in their final suffering.

You say you've seen the devil? True evil?
I know only one response. It is
"Get thee behind me."
NC. Leave. Get away.


Posts: 6489 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
overandone
Member
Member # 39162
Default  Posted: 6:25 AM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's really pretty bad. That degree of manipulation is so extreme. Unfortunatly My H's AP was also incredibly maipulative, constantly asking favours of my H (well, she was so incapable,ugly, whacky and needy I didn't have anything to worry about, did I???) pretending to be my friend for years whilst stabbing me in the back (same goes for my H of course). I put up with her flaky behaviour as my H was quite isolated and wanted, so he said,to see her H. Wierd, 'cos he did get on very well with her H. So as they came as a couple I had to socialise with her. Couple of hours in her company was enough for me.

Her friends were dropping away like flies so she was constantly trying to wheedle her way into our lives,even inviting herself to go camping with ourselves and our friends - my H was extremely pissed off at her, I couldn't understand that year why he was so rude to her on camp.

When H finished the LTA nearly a year before I found out and I had asked for D(later rescinded) without having a clue about the A, leaving him free to be with her, she asked 5 times to get back together and he wasn't interested. He'd finally seen the light by then, and was shocked she had no concern for her H if she left.

And all the snide comments, wierd looks and manipulative behaviour over the years to me all now make sense. My consolation is she'll die a lonely old woman. She lives in her house with her H, but not 'together',has alienated most of her friends, and she has terminal cancer.

Karma seems to have hit home and for somebody like that who basically lived her life not giving a shit about anyone but herself I'm not sorry. Your time will surely come.


Me - BW (54)
Him - fWS (61)
kiddies - daughters 22 and 27,son 22,
d-day - April 18 2012
R - but lots of bumps in the long road

Posts: 218 | Registered: May 2013 | From: uk
SadFlower
♀ Member
Member # 37725
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ah, manipulation. My FWH's OW was a master of it.

My FWH firmly believes that he initiated the A. He's right--he's the one who stopped at a motel on the way home from a trip to the city and called her to join him for their first sexual encounter--but from what he's told me about the time before and during the A, I can see that she was manipulating him skillfully.

Before the PA started, they were having lunch together most of the time for several months preceding the A. Always in a public place, always with professional conduct, conversation mostly about work, some personal stuff. Then the day came when OW came into his office and slapped a magazine down on his desk with the front page story about the stresses in modern marriage: Dual Income-No Sex was the headline. "That's my life," she said to him.

When I suggested, in our post D-Day talks, that she was sending him a message (with blaring trumpets and flashing neon lights) that she was available and open to an A, my FWH was incredulous. He said she was just "sharing with a friend." (Snort.) I think he doesn't like to think of himself as being manipulated.

E-mails also show lots of manipulation--the kinds of messages that manipulate while explicitly saying, "I'm not trying to manipulate you..." Yeah, sure. They were designed to elicit sympathy and provoke a response. Sentences like, "I'm the only one you can talk to about this" (and vice-versa) were designed to keep him on the hook. In fact, after his NC phone call, FWH said, "I don't know who she'll talk to if she can't talk to me. She'll explode." (My inner thought: Good, I hope she does.) She really had him believing that they needed each other.

She also encouraged the thought that I was only really interested in FWH's nice fat income, rather than FWH. That's in the e-mails.

And favors! She "needed" FWH to explain statistics to her for her doctoral dissertation. I would be exaggerating if I said that FWH practically wrote part of her dissertation, but not by much. The kicker? OW was a math major as an undergrad! But poor little ol'OW just needed a man to explain it all to her and tell he what to do!

OW and OWH were couples friends with us. How can you accept an invitation to dinner in someone's home, have a pleasant evening, and then go off and fvck your host/hostess's spouse? That is evil, and FWH was just as guilty as OW.

More manipulation is evident in the ways she worded the two e-mails and one phone message sent since D-Day. "Let me know if this message causes any problems." Yes! Contact causes problems, so let's have more contact!

Peoplepleaser, my FWH's OW is not nearly as evil as yours--yours really takes the cake.

Jjct, you nailed it about the emptiness of their souls. Overanddone, I am still waiting for that karma bus to come smacking into OW. One day...


Me: BW, age 66
Him: WH, age 64
Married 19 years
In R.

D-Day: August 14, 2012
9 year LTA with former co-worker and family "friend"/7 years EA+PA, 2 more years EA


Posts: 381 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Connecticut
overandone
Member
Member # 39162
Default  Posted: 3:23 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sadflower...

"Before the PA started, they were having lunch together most of the time for several months preceding the A. Always in a public place, always with professional conduct, conversation mostly about work, some personal stuff." (except it certainly wasn't every day) and


"OW and OWH were couples friends with us. How can you accept an invitation to dinner in someone's home, have a pleasant evening, and then go off and fvck your host/hostess's spouse? That is evil, and FWH was just as guilty as OW."

Yup, same here. The second of which was one of the things I blasted her for in the long e-mail I sent her venting my spleen.

And long before H had any thoughts of the A, he told me "she likes to confide in me"(about her problems with her H. Me too trusting, H too naive.

And she started sending H pornography at work - we didn't have a home computer then.

I could go on. Realised in hindsight from remembering conversations that she was trying to push her H and myself together leaving her and my H together - she told her H on d-day that "he could now have overrandone". Except the stupid bitch never picked up on, or believed my H when he told her he didn't love her, didn't want to make a life with her, it was friends with benefits only, and he wished things could be better between myself and my H. Apparently always jealous of me.

Which is why I let rip to her when she e-mailed me saying she 'never meant for any of this to happen' and was 'pleased my H and I got back together again'- after temporary split beforte I knew about A.

So manipulative it takes my breath away...

[This message edited by overandone at 8:32 AM, June 27th (Friday)]


Me - BW (54)
Him - fWS (61)
kiddies - daughters 22 and 27,son 22,
d-day - April 18 2012
R - but lots of bumps in the long road

Posts: 218 | Registered: May 2013 | From: uk
SadFlower
♀ Member
Member # 37725
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Overanddone, the day of the NC phone call, there were a few questions that arose during FWH and OW's conversation that needed a follow-up, so FWH had to get back to her (which he did through a very terse e-mail). One question she had asked was whether I wanted to talk to her. I said NO! I just wanted her out of my life. While I had a million questions I might have liked to ask, she's exactly the kind of person who would have said just what yours did:
she 'never meant for any of this to happen' and was 'pleased my H and I got back together

I just didn't want to hear it.

She was sooooo good at projecting a kind, caring persona. I couldn't bear the thought that she would try to sympathize with me or try to justify/minimize the A, or worse yet, tell me her deep insights into my H and tell me what he needs to be happy, or tell me to take good care of him. Yes, she would have done that. To help us, you see. And to demonstrate her magnanimity.

Even her post-NC messages were couched in caring language: "I thought you'd want to know that [former choral director] had a stroke." "I'm trying to live by the rules, but I thought you would want to know that [former choral director] died." "Other Friend said she hadn't heard from you in a while. I'm concerned, so please let me know if you get this message."

Unfortunately for her, I see right through her manipulations.


Me: BW, age 66
Him: WH, age 64
Married 19 years
In R.

D-Day: August 14, 2012
9 year LTA with former co-worker and family "friend"/7 years EA+PA, 2 more years EA


Posts: 381 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Connecticut
overandone
Member
Member # 39162
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sadflower...

'She was sooooo good at projecting a kind, caring persona.'

Didn't have the same OW did we??!!

She saw a friend of mine who had borrowed some scaffolding from her H and was returning it, that her H wasn't well and she was having to look after him. Yes, she'd blown his life apart, completely messed his head up and for the first time in his life he was on AD. And wasn't she such a kind person to sacrifice herself to look after him...

AS I was being told this I'm afraid I saw red and asked my friend to shut up and why. Not like me to be rude to my friends, but sheeeesh, that was just too much.


Me - BW (54)
Him - fWS (61)
kiddies - daughters 22 and 27,son 22,
d-day - April 18 2012
R - but lots of bumps in the long road

Posts: 218 | Registered: May 2013 | From: uk
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh yeah. My WS's AP and my former friend too. Took the time to apologize 2 1/2 years later after I found out how bad it really was. Called and said, "I miss our friendship. I loved you; we both did," and, "I just can't believe I did that to you. It just happened." Ugh! I knew she had manipulated the situation and both WS and me (though I didn't know exactly how brilliant it was), but it wasn't worth calling her on it at that time. Now I wish I had. I told WS the other day that I hoped I didn't see her on the side of the road because I'd run her over to save others the misery.

It didn't "just happen." She pushed it after my WS said no (but didn't break contact or tell me ...which was just enough information for her to keep trying, right?!) She planted seeds and watched them grow. Disgusting.

Truth is, my WS is the one with the most blame regardless of how brilliant AP was. Not only did she give AP1 enough power for it to happen the first time, but she went ahead and let it happen a second time. And AP1 laid the groundwork for my WS to be the one trashing me the second time. AP2 didn't know me, but had enough misinformation started by AP1 through WS to call me selfish and a controlling b*&ch undeserving of my WS. It's mind-numbing all the stuff going on behind my back and out of my awareness.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
tryin2havefaith
♀ Member
Member # 37165
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand as I too have seen true evil. OW in my situation destroys everything /everyone unfortunate enough to come in contact with it. Yes, manipulation and destruction seems to be some sort of sick or psychopathic fix for them. Sick.....just very very sick. You cannot understand it because you are not that way.

Best thing to do....focus forward. Do not give them space in your head. Try meditation, hypnosis, or yoga to center on yourself.


ME- BS
HIM- WS
DDay 1/2011
4 - 6 months of TT'ing
Fully R'd
"Just as ripples spread out when a single pebble is dropped into water, the actions of individuals can have far-reaching effects. " -Dalai Lama

Posts: 265 | Registered: Oct 2012
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, tryin. I have been trying to do that. We are in the middle of the timeline, though, so it's like DDay all over again making the head-space thing difficult. You are right, because I am not that way I will never understand.

Overanddone, yay for karma!!!!!

Sadflower, until you posted I didn't realize how unprecedented this level of deception and manipulation is. I should honor that throughout our R as it's important for me to remember that when angry with WS and lamenting the situation. Not that I'm letting WS off the hook, but it's an important reminder of what we need to do to protect our relationship going forward.

I wanted to respond to jjct. I think the distinction is between the assumption that everyone has souls or that some people don't. I don't care much either way. If everyone has souls, then the true outcome for people engaging in this behavior is that they don't recognize them or feel anything anyway. If they do have a soul, it is locked up tight without any access to feeling, including both misery and joy. Sure, they feel bad when things don't go their way, or they feel good when things do...but those are mere surface responses lacking the depth of true living. If I view it from the perspective that I would never want to live that life, regardless of the pain true depth of feeling risks, then yes I can say they live in misery. When I state that she will never know misery, I mean that she will never feel enough to experience it in the way she throws it around for others. She's incapable. She's without a soul either because she never had one or because she locked it away. At the depth of the misery she's caused others it would break someone to unlock that cage.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
SadFlower
♀ Member
Member # 37725
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Overanddone--yes, very generous of your H's OW to look after her H after she'd turned his life upside down. That reminds me of some e-mails from my FWH's OW complaining bitterly about having to take care of her H, who had broken his leg, was in a cast that went up past the knee (so, he couldn't bend one leg), and was hobbling around (badly) on crutches. She told FWH her true feelings (anger, sneering disdain for her H, resentment over a "ruined" summer), while the rest of the world she portrayed herself as a loving and caring wife looking after her handicapped husband. (I didn't know about the A at that time, so I saw how she was presenting herself.) (And by the way, her H is a truly good man.)

Peoplepleaser--

It's mind-numbing all the stuff going on behind my back and out of my awareness.
--yes yes yes.

Tryin2havefaith--I don't know how I would have survived this long without yoga. I know I've said this before, but really, I think that yoga has saved my sanity.



Me: BW, age 66
Him: WH, age 64
Married 19 years
In R.

D-Day: August 14, 2012
9 year LTA with former co-worker and family "friend"/7 years EA+PA, 2 more years EA


Posts: 381 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Connecticut
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct....intelligent post. Thank you.

Peoplepleaser....I am sorry to hear about your miscarriages. I have followed your journey but just read that for the first time.

I see a number of people posting about "manipulators" and how their spouses AP duped them into adultery.

I get that...I really do. The OM used my wife, had sex with her 3 times in one week, then dumped her the next. He got what he wanted....he used the "I'm broken, hold me" technique, "I'm not pushing you, just love you so much" lines, drew up poems and read them to her, "checked in with her" after DD#1 just to "see how she was doing"....so i get their part of it. He also had at least one affair before my wife and was into another woman within 2 months of dumping my wife. He is a serial cheater. But AP are a non-factor.

Gently....don't loose sight of ALL the facts. Fact is my wife was not raped. Fact is my wife kept their first "hi's" a secret from me, never sharing that she "met a guy to go running with"...and this was her choice within the first hour of meeting him. Even if he were a master manipulator....no one is THAT GOOD. Fact is she counted down the days for the weekend to pass so she could be with him again. Fact is she sat in anxiety therapy I enrolled in to find out what was tearing me up inside while she was involved in her affair. Fact is after DD#1 she took her A underground and gave me the gift of DD#2. Fact is she TT'ed and lied, fog lasting for months afterwards.


I get that the AP was manipulative, but so was my wife. She manipulated me, her friends, our family....to get exactly what she wanted. No different then AP. Adultery is singularly selfish...just like all sin. Wife used him and took what she wanted....he used her and took what he wanted. It was consentual, neither giving....both just taking.


Peoplepleaser....I have followed your journey closely. I know you have had a similar path as I have with your spouse. I get her AP was manipulative...but those manipulations would have been in effective if your spouse was grounded enough to say "no", was of strong enough character to turn to you and be vulnerable.

You have endured much pain......you have pain from your childhood. You did NOT choose adultery as a response to that pain.

Pure evil does exist in this world, however it is rare.

Evil exists within each of us in the form of temptations.

While I am holding waywards feet to the fire as I discussed "manipulative AP's" above, I put my own feet to the fire as I see how temptations influenced me to choose destructively, selfishly all on my own. Internet porn is tempting, easy, and "fun"...but it is not healthy for me to blame cheap, fast internet speeds on MY choices to use it. If it were a dial-up, slow connection....I would have still found a way to choose it.

This is yet another example of why the AP are a "non-factor" in affairs. Fast or slow connection....those willing to chose adultery will find a willing partner to do so with.

I pray your spouse works hard to find her "whys", uncover her pain that her false-intimacies were masking and then finds the courage to face them head on and heal through them.....allowing real R to start in your relationship.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:11 PM, June 27th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3594 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NOTE: I struggled to break free from serious CoD crap....and still struggle with it.

It is from that perspective that my post above was written.

For most of our relationship I dismissed my own feelings, denied my own needs and enabled my wife to do her counter dependent thing.

I'm not taking any credit for her A, but I see how my "covering up" and "turning a blind eye" to her relationship hurtful actions limited our bonding and kept our intimacy where we wanted it...at the surface level.


You don't know how bad I wanted to find out OM was some sort of predator. He is not. But it would be so much less painful for me if my wife was taken advantage of, if he really did make her do something she really didn't want to.

The fact is she was every bit as aggressive as he was....from the start.

I had to accept that to change my inputs in our M. I failed to change after DD #1....DD#2 pretty much shattered me. It was only then that I started to change and grow.

"Adultery is crazy making shit"--first therapist

Peoplepleaser....keep posting. I feel I am not comforting you...but I am trying. Others are too. You are in a painful spot....but remember pain does NOT equal unhealthy.

What you are feeling and choosing to do is healthy.

Please keep reaching out.

This is too much pain to hold inside. Depression and resentment will be a result if you try and do this on your own.

I know you are desiring like me....to grow better not bitter. I also see your spouse needing to seriously step higher to catch up with you.

God is with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3594 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blakesteel,

I always find comfort in your posts, rest assured. While I find so much support on this site from various sources, we tend to gravitate toward a few whose stories and self-exploration "speak" or reflect our own truth and help us grow through this pain and R. I regard you as one of several supportive companions in that respect and always take your posts and replies seriously.

I agree with you 100%. In part I see MY WS as I've always seen her but with a bigger picture of who she is as a whole. In that whole I see the hurt child from FOO issues, the misperceptions she placed and the vulnerability in her choices. It helps me understand how and why all this happened toward healing IN the relationship. Unfortunately, there is always room for seemingly paradoxical views given the many facets of context.

I also see the pain she was willing to inflict on me, her self and our relationship as a devastating side effect of avoiding personal issues, not respecting herself or me, and choosing to risk total annihilation of our relationship due to permanent damage rather than attempting a positive change by being genuine, authentic and honest while risking the same annihilation. The first choice leads only to destruction, the second merely risks destruction. And all of this was done based on private assumptions about the interpretation and motivation of behavior she either saw or looked for in me throughout our relationship.

What's interesting is that as I go over this I realize we might have had a chance in our first couples counseling before either EA if we had not encountered the evil manipulations of AP1. If her worst fears had not been confirmed during that time, she might have actually risked honesty. I know that I am borrowing trouble by predicting outcomes of things I will never know for sure, but given the knowledge I have gained, I feel very certain of that possibility.

Until just now (as I type, actually), I have believed that WS would have eventually cheated no matter what. Yes, she had a history of PA in every relationship before the one before me. She insisted when we met that she had matured and was disgusted by her past behavior. After DDay2 I refused to believe that. Now I believe it in part. The timing of everything (what WS kept from me about her thoughts and feelings, the depression I was in, my own patterns interpersonal interactions and how they conflict with hers, the desperation we both felt at the time, etc.) made the scene perfect for the depth of manipulation introduced at that specific time. AP1 merely highlighted WS's worst capacity for destruction when she was at her worst.

Maybe better explained...
I work in mental health. When I do assessments for risk I entertain every aspect of possible risk given every context I can consider for the person I am assessing. That person may not have been suicidal for 10 years and have every positive barrier for relapse in their present life, but because there is a history I have to consider what situation might trigger that response in the future. I see this similarly. Nearly every area of her life at that time was being perceived so negatively that she was ripe for relapse. I can even note that she attempted to create some barriers to it. Like a substance abuser she was allowing someone to drink in front of her while she was craving a sip during a time she was susceptible to relapse. Over time familiarity and justification set in until she smelled it and put her lips to the bottle. She didn't drink, as far as I know, but the intent was there. As long as it didn't hit her throat she could still claim sobriety.

Because she didn't come clean the first time, she harbored all that justification as well as now harboring a terrible, harmful secret that was eating away at her own self-esteem. That led right into the second one, in which she "knew better" so didn't actually put her lips to the bottle. However, the second time she sought out someone and put the bottle in their hand instead of simply not refusing them when they showed up drinking it in front of her.

Yes, she's responsible for letting her own fears trump my truth and the truth of our relationship. She's responsible for not giving it the light of day for her own selfish ego-building. I'm not ignoring that. And now that we know, she has an opportunity to grow beyond her partial work before and engage in a true emotionally-connected relationship.

And now that I know I finally have an opportunity to be a better partner to her. I have that opportunity because she is finally telling me what she needs in a way that I hear it. I now recognize that I need to provide her space to do that. The rub is that I have been working on that on my own the past two or three years, she just couldn't see beyond the shit she rubbed all over her eyes, and I didn't highlight it.

There are more things that I'm responsible for. I did come out of an emotionally abusive relationship and wasn't as vulnerable in expressing love, want, gratitude and desire as I could have. A part of me also held back because deep down I felt unneeded, too. But that is also something I have to explore...why was I ok with not feeling needed? Why did I resign myself to a relationship that didn't feel as connected as I wanted? Did I truly want that connection, or was I also afraid? I know that early on I was confused about it, but my past relationships always placed me in the role of compassionate, understanding and sacrificing partner, so maybe I was tired. I chose to see it as finally being in a healthy relationship, which makes sense because I had no barometer. However, deep down I think I knew something was missing.

Anyway, that's a lot. It was helpful to type it all out as a text-stream, . Thanks for all your helpful and compassionate responses. I still contend that this woman is truly the emodiment of evil as we can perceive it.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also see the pain she was willing to inflict on me, her self and our relationship as a devastating side effect of avoiding personal issues, not respecting herself or me, and choosing to risk total annihilation of our relationship due to permanent damage rather than attempting a positive change by being genuine, authentic and honest while risking the same annihilation. The first choice leads only to destruction, the second merely risks destruction. And all of this was done based on private assumptions about the interpretation and motivation of behavior she either saw or looked for in me throughout our relationship.


Ok....well, I feel a bit foolish. This paragraph elequently displays your pretty complete knowledge of the human condition.

I also more readily see your interpretation of the AP actions.

I probably got more comfort out of your posts than I gave.


I especially keyed into the part where you felt you were on the cusp of a truly authentic, radically honest, vulnerable relationship with your spouse.

I don't waste to much time wishing for a better past anymore....but I have seen where if just ONE of us where just a tad healthier, a tad more tired with our destructive coping mechs perhaps full blown adultery could have been avoided.

I see very clearly how infidelity was a part of our relationship from the very begining...me using porn, my wife with the OM. So we were broken in the first place.

I enjoy visiting with you.

Thank you for so boldly and honestly putting yourself in your posts.

I also enjoy the LENGTH of your posts! Makes me feel somewhat normal.

It appears to me you got this....regardless of your waywards choices...you got this.

With regards to your spouses previous PA.....

Our current therapist said

"Adultery is not a result of a broken marriage. A broken marriage is a result of someones ability to chose adultery."

I have interpretted this to include all sexual sin....all forms of infidelity. So replace adultery with porn...and I stare directly at myself. So I hurt our M too....our relationship was in trouble from the begining.

I have faith that learning to R means learning how to do relationships healthier.

RA was a real temptation.....while I can't say 100% what would have happened, I think it highly likely I would have found a cute adoring girl and repeated the same old cycles had I not been authentic and radically honest with myself. A mode of operation that I will subscribe to for the rest of my life....too bad I didn't learn to do this earlier, but thank God I have today to choose differently!

God is with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3594 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, blakesteel. Don't feel foolish. It's difficult to get every aspect into a post, though clearly we both do our best as your long posts help me feel normal too.

I love that quote! I might even amend it a bit to say that a broken marriage is the ability of someone to make damaging choices. Our relationship was broken before the EAs due to damaging choice down the road to infidelity.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
hopefull77
♀ Member
Member # 43221
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since I believe in God I also believe in evil/devil just turn on the news evil is out there....alive and well....but that being said we are given free choice....I am sure I have used my words to 'manipulate' an outcome to go my way...selfish? Sure!....
But the pain of infidelity is the worse pain I have ever felt....although the death of a child is beyond my comprehension ..
I struggle with the pure selfishness of it....
I am a cradle Catholic....I am also a realist....life is not fair...bad things happen to good people...I have not seen true evil in person but I know it's out there...


me-BS
him-WS
3 adult children 1D 2S
married-1977
LTA 09-2010 - 11-2012
D-day - 11-11-2012
status - reconciling and very hopeful
"Let Go of Control; Let God's Life Flow" ...Richard Rohr



Posts: 443 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: sunny california
musiclovingmom
♀ Member
Member # 38207
Default  Posted: 10:40 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just here to commiserate. I was going to quote the things mentioned about OW that applied to OW2 in our situation. Then I realized I'd have to quote entire posts. Manipulative, friendly, twisted my words to drive a wedge, was happy we worked things out, was just trying to help/being a good friend, offering deep insights into my H and telling me to take good care of him. Pretty much anything any of you have said is true of her. My biggest struggle with her is that I want her to fix herself. I don't want to believe that someone could do that and not see the wrong in it and want to do better. It tears me up that she might do the same to other people I know (and possibly already has).
This:
I told WS the other day that I hoped I didn't see her on the side of the road because I'd run her over to save others the misery.

I actually had the opportunity to do this in the parking lot at our Target. My H was driving. He took his foot off the gas, hovered both feet over the brake pedal and gripped the steering wheel very firmly with both hands. He could see the thought on my face as it floated in my head. Two things kept me from overpowering him to run her over - 1. I didn't want to go to jail and leave my kids without me. 2. I didn't want to harm her child. Otherwise, there would be an OW2 size dent in our truck and a black mark on my criminal record.

[This message edited by musiclovingmom at 10:57 PM, June 27th (Friday)]


Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jan 2013
peoplepleaser
♀ Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

musiclovingmom,

Right! I feel the same way. I usually feel bad for people who are so broken they project evil. In this case maybe I'm not there yet. This time, I don't care if I ever get there. My feelings toward her are not a reflection of my own goodness (which is why I strive to do this at other times), but a reflection of the energy she puts out into the world. I have met very few people in my personal life for whom I've been unable to find a redeeming quality. Yes, she and the others probably had a very rough childhood. I feel bad for anyone that suffered trauma, neglect and abuse as a child. However, sometimes the damage is so very bad, especially when they project the same hurt and pain on others. Because I believe in God and believe in reincarnation, these people just need a do-over. That doesn't mean I'm the tool of justice or the deliverer of second chances, but the fantasy is nice.

I get this quote from Jaws in my head (not sure if it's still perfectly accurate), "Sharks eyes like dolls eyes, black." That's what pops into my head with people who suffer from a lack of empathy, narcissism and a goal to please only themselves (basically, antisocial personality disorder, under which the term sociopath is often applied). The odds they will ever "feel" misery or realize their own mistakes are very slim given all the barriers they've developed to save themselves from personal awareness and pain.

Knowing that others will suffer is my biggest issue. The best we can do is educate people to make the covert overt and bring light to the actions that seem "off" so that the situations they manipulate die a quick death.

Live authentically, openly, and honestly. The pain from it will be great, but it will subside. The alternative is never knowing joy.


WS: 38--2 EAs
BS: 38--me, faithful
DS: 5
8 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 526 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
Topic Posts: 19

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