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User Topic: kind of a t/j: forgiveness from BS
holesinmybucket
♀ New Member
Member # 43621
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is forgiveness from your BS important to you? Is it something you are hoping for and/or striving for?

I really believed I would never forgive my WH. EVER! I wanted to so badly, but held so much resentment for his behavior, somehow I thought in my heart that forgiving him was admitting to myself how worthless I had become.

I heard the whole "forgiving is for me not WH" but it never really sank in, until one day I got it. It was my choice to forgive, he has absolutely nothing to do with it! After 5 months, I made the decision to forgive my WH. When I told him this I specified that it was 100% for me. One thing I have realized is, I not only forgave him, but myself for being so "foolish" which was not true, but that was how I felt.

I see forgiveness now, much like I see "love" It is mine. It is not something that is truly given, but can be shared.

I believe it to be much the same for the WH/WW. The magic and healing from forgiveness is really felt when they forgive themselves. And let go of the pain and resentment of their action/choices.


me:BW 37
him:WH 37 (Dr. Jekyll)
DDay: 1/1/14
Whole truth:March 7th 14

DS 14 DS 10 DD 8
They are the sun that shine through any storm.

Love is not given away, but shared
When you have lost what matters.. what do you have left to loose?


Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2014
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't think that if one doesn't forgive, it automatically means they are "filled" with anger, uncertainty, and mistrust. I don't believe the feeling of forgiveness, if one has it toward their offending party, wipes away all of the negative feelings associated with said offense, but nor do I believe the LACK of forgiveness means that those negative feelings overwhelm the offended one.

well said! There will always be things that piss me off about what he did. Likely him too about me. Should we divorce about this? Or should we consider the positive good things we have together and live that life most of the time? Is it settling. Yes. Is that bad? I don't think so. I bet it happens a lot.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't think that if one doesn't forgive, it automatically means they are "filled" with anger, uncertainty, and mistrust. I don't believe the feeling of forgiveness, if one has it toward their offending party, wipes away all of the negative feelings associated with said offense, but nor do I believe the LACK of forgiveness means that those negative feelings overwhelm the offended one.

Did that make sense?

It does make sense, but the level of anger and resentment pre-forgiveness is very different than post-forgiveness. Even in this thread you're seeing BSs saying how they forgave for themselves because they were tired of being filled with rage, anger, (pick the descriptive). There is a difference, and it's big.

The mindset of a BS that hasn't forgiven is different. Your last line, which I put in bold - is imo, incorrect. A BS that hasn't forgiven is overwhelmed with negative feelings. Hence forgiving for oneself. Also, I notice you wrote 'offended one'. BSs aren't offended, BSs are betrayed. There is a very big difference between an offense and a betrayal. It almost seems like subconsciously, based on your choice of words, you may be minimizing the pain of the BS. This may be why the fact that the pain and negative feelings 'overwhelm' the BS is something you don't see.

I realize your story is a bit different, and that your H and you split after DDay, and didn't see each other again for some time. This may be why you see things differently.

If I wasn't a BS, I wouldn't understand this. The level of anger and pain is far beyond anything I could have imagined, and never would have I believed the amount of time a person could spend rehashing something in their mind, going over ever detail, every item that didn't line up, every possible missed item, again and again. Forgiveness doesn't make every single thing go away, but the weight it lifts is enormous.

That said, and I say this with absolutely no disrespect whatsoever, I think this is why there is a split between the BS and the WS in this thread. The mentality of a BS really may be impossible to grasp for anyone that isn't a BS. The BSs are saying forgiveness is necessary, while the WSs say it's not.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 9:42 AM, June 28th (Saturday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A BS that hasn't forgiven is overwhelmed with negative feelings

I'm also a BS. I have mainly positive feelings with a side of sadness and an occasional flash of anger.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm also a BS. I have mainly positive feelings with a side of sadness and an occasional flash of anger.

rachel, you know I like you, very very much. However, you're a MH, and, I'm sorry, but I do think it makes a difference that your A was first. I'm sorry - I know you hurt a great deal and you've been through a lot, but I just don't think you, in the BS role, have the same outlook as a BS that never cheated. There is a 'blindsided' factor and a 'why me' factor that occurs in someone that never thought infidelity would ever touch their relationship.

I'm truly sorry if I've upset you (or anyone else) I'm being honest. I think there is a reason there is a MH classification, in that it's different than a straight up BS or WS.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Sad in AZ
♀ Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there is a reason there is a MH classification, in that it's different than a straight up BS or WS.

Of course it's different; they've been on both sides. That doesn't make the betrayal any less hurtful, harmful or devastating. That's a dangerous stance to take.


I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 20456 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Of course it's different; they've been on both sides. That doesn't make the betrayal any less hurtful, harmful or devastating. That's a dangerous stance to take.

I never, never, said the pain of a MH wasn't real or that it was 'less than'. I said that the mindset is different than someone that is betrayed and left wondering why, how, etc. If a person is the second BS in a MH sitch, imo, a lot of those questions would turn into self blame instead of just questioning why. Self blame isn't good either since there is NO justification for cheating, but imo, I would think that there is a difference.

I wasn't insulting rachel or any other MH. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. I'm going to step away from this thread now. I've said my beliefs - that R without forgiveness is going to be much harder given the level of anger and resentment still boiling within a BS.

Again - I meant absolutely no offense to anyone, at all, and I'm not minimizing anyone's pain - BS, MH, WS alike. I simply said the mindset of each is different.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 10:17 AM, June 28th (Saturday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I simply said the mindset of each is different.

Assigning a mindset to a group is a generalization, and a thinking error.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1252 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, June 28th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Using "offense" to describe a wrong done to someone in the context of the forgiveness discussion was solely for simplicity's sake and not intended to minimize.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2322 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
iwillNOT
♀ Member
Member # 40605
Default  Posted: 1:16 AM, June 29th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a BS and I do not think forgiveness is necessary for a reconciliation. I think it is very important to some on a deep moral level, yes. I have also observed some BS's on this board who rush to say they forgive right away after Dday, and sometimes it seems they are trying to fix, to move on, to make it ok, that it is "cheap forgiveness" as I have heard it referred to by Janice Abrahms Spring in her book "How Can I Forgive You."

She writes that true forgiveness comes from the joint efforts of the betrayed and betrayer; the betrayer showing remorse and having the opportunity to make restitution, together with the healing effect of these actions on the betrayed, can bring the betrayed closer to forgiveness. Ms. Abrams points out that forgiveness is not necessary to move forward, but acceptance is. These things feel right to me.

Perhaps I will someday feel forgiveness, I am not sure, and I am not focusing on it. Certainly I am not putting pressure on myself, nor is my WH. In fact, he doesn't expect it. I am simply trying to stay present, process, and make it through. I have read some on this board say that they weren't actively trying to forgive but that one day, they realized they had anyway. When they were ready, it just quietly happened. If I come to it as a result of the healing process, great, but IMHO it would be damaging to put the pressure on myself that I somehow "had to" forgive.

Forgiveness means different things to different people, and everyone finds their own way. It's wonderful if some are helped by trying to forgive/forgiving, but it's incorrect to insist everyone in true reconciliation must forgive or they are not really reconciled at all. In the end, we all only truly know our own journey, and we all travel an individual path.


Me: BS, 43
Him: WH, 44
Together 21 years
Married 14 years
Kiddos 2,6,8,10
Dday#1 2004, 3 years after EA/PA co-worker MOW
Dday#2 8-6-13, 13 months EA/9months PA with co-worker MOW - caught not confessed
Rugsweep now, pay later. Ask me how I know.

Posts: 514 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
GetEvenInAZ
♀ Member
Member # 30891
Default  Posted: 2:20 AM, June 29th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off ... I want to say that this forum has been a lifesaver for me in understanding xSO and things he has probably gone through/is going through. You all give me hope every single day!

But anyways ... BS here with an extemely un-remorseful xSO (he honestly doesn't know what he did wrong ) I was one of those people who swore up & down would NEVER forgive xSO. I used to get into arguements with the Pastor who ran Divorce Care over the whole "forgiveness" thing. But between the Pastor and my IC, I made it a point to study forgiveness, what is and is not, how to go about forgiving and what the end looks like.

But I've done it - mostly! There's 14 years of behavior to forgive, so it is taking awhile , but I've found I CAN forgive him. I CAN let go of the resentment and negative feelings. I see now that he is a very broken person who has made bad decisions, probably out of habit at this point (I used to be a champion rug-sweeper).

I now deliberatively and consciously try to separate behavior from the person and that has really helped in the forgiveness. I sometimes even have sympathy for him!

Forgiveness does NOT mean he is back in my life or that I trust him. It just means I no longer harbor the anger and resentment over his actions. I can relate to him as a person instead of the monster i envisioned him being on the DDays.

None of this has been easy, and most times it has sucked HARD. And alot of the specifics are still a mystery; all I know is that I did NOT want to be an angry, bitter person and everyone (Pastor, IC, friends, SI folks) said forgiveness is the best method for avoiding that outcome.

Again, the thing that works for me is to forgive behaviors and actions. I think it would help tremendously if xSO ever apologized for anything (which he doesn't). I think just the acknowledgement that a certain behavior or action was wrong and/or unfair to me would have a huge impact on and speed up the forgiveness timeline.

But the forgiveness is not for him. It is for me. I don't think he knows I've forgiven alot of what he's done, or if he would even care, but that is not the point. The point is to release him from any obligations for restitution and to release me from a tragic episode. It is for me to learn and grow from a painful experience instead of stagnating in the past.

Can you R without forgiveness? I don't know. I think alot of people think forgiveness means automatically trusting the other person and letting them back into your life with no qualifications, but I think that is wrong. Trust is a completely different thing than forgiveness and must be earned back in its own right.

If there have been apologies and restitution, then there is at least the groundwork laid for forgiveness, but forgiveness can happen without that groundwork.


Me: BW (44)
now xH (44)
20 yrs, 2 wonderful kids, and up to 5 - make it 6 DDays

Posts: 287 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: gilbert AZ
ThatGuyNoMore
♂ Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, June 29th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BW said "I forgive you" a day or two after D-Day. What I think she meant at the time was, "I own my part of the relationship that wasn't working." In the shock of discovery, I believe she was blaming herself for my A. (Of course it was not her fault that I lied and betrayed her. That's entirely my responsibility. There is no possible justification for what I did.) Since then, the numbness and shock has started to wear off, and now she's starting to allow herself to feel the anger she had bottled up inside.

It will be a long time before she forgives herself for not figuring it out and catching me sooner. She has always been very hard on herself, and my LTA just destroyed what self-esteem she had.

I think that if we have a chance at R--and right now I believe she's on the fence about it--then it will involve work on forgiveness. Forgiveness is not saying what I did was ok. I think forgiveness is about acknowledging the hurt and being at peace with it. I honestly don't know if it's possible for my BW to forgive me, given all that I did and for so long. Her hurt runs so deep...


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 247 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
stunnedmullet
♀ Member
Member # 42975
Default  Posted: 12:25 AM, June 30th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IwillNOT - well written. That is how I feel as a BS, however I honestly don't know if I can ever forgive my WH for what he did. I want to reconcile with him and I see a future for us, but he has hurt me more than I could imagine, and I don't think I can ever say that was ok or that I will fully get over it.

I want to get to a point where I accept it happened and move past the deep anger and hurt, but I honestly don't think I can ever truly forgive him.


DD April Fools Day 2014 (unfortunately no joke)

BS (me) 40
WH 38
OW - a friend of WH for 5 years

4 month EA which turned into a 5 month PA

Us together 20 years, married 17 and 6 kids

I always thought I was enough but obviously not!


Posts: 218 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
MegM
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Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 12:50 AM, June 30th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am understanding that this journey is full of 'verbs' What propels us is actions.

So I understand we are 'reconciling' I don't know if there is a 'reconciled' but that there is an ongoing choice from me and he to committing again and again.

Similarly I am committed to 'forgiving' as an action - each day.

In the early months I said "I forgive you" and like some other posters or their SO's here I realized I had spoken a desire or preparedness to forgive - It was not and I don't know when it will be 'journey's end'.

So I just need to keep choosing to walk, move, and not get stuck.

That is what I think is essential. Not just to healing my marriage - but healing myself as well.

thanks for this great topic.
blessings to you all
Meg.


BS / fWS me 41 (@ DDay)
fWS / BS him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 ch(6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulders"

Posts: 669 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
holesinmybucket
♀ New Member
Member # 43621
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, June 30th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

GetEvenInAZ

Thank you for sharing your story, while mine is different I can defiantly agree with your (pastor and IC) that forgiveness is the best way to let go of blame and resentment.

I think sometimes,BS/WS put expectations on forgiveness. Such as: once forgiven, the hurt, destruction and pain will disappear. No more fighting and questioning. For me, this is simply not true. I still have times of pain, distrust continued questioning. The biggest difference for me is how I process these feelings. I no longer sit in judgement over his behavior or my feelings.

I have seen many posts from BS, stating they have come to acceptance. I think recovery can happen with acceptance. however for my personal healing, this was my first big step. My choice to forgive, has really nothing to do with my marriage and everything to do with me.

I do not really understand the term "cheap forgiveness". IMHO if the forgiveness is to free yourself and (not to free someone else or rug sweep) and continue working on healing....How could this be Cheap?

Thanks for sharing..this is great thread!


me:BW 37
him:WH 37 (Dr. Jekyll)
DDay: 1/1/14
Whole truth:March 7th 14

DS 14 DS 10 DD 8
They are the sun that shine through any storm.

Love is not given away, but shared
When you have lost what matters.. what do you have left to loose?


Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2014
iwillNOT
♀ Member
Member # 40605
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, June 30th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

t/j holesinmybucket - In answer to your question - this link is to an article explaining Dr.Abrams views on cheap forgiveness and on the process of acceptance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Janis-Abrahms-Spring,-Ph.D./forgiveness-divorce_b_1418173.html

ETA- the term cheap forgiveness is a bit off putting, isn't it? I don't like it either. It makes more sense when you read her explanation. And I am happy that you found healing and forgiveness.

[This message edited by iwillNOT at 5:38 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


Me: BS, 43
Him: WH, 44
Together 21 years
Married 14 years
Kiddos 2,6,8,10
Dday#1 2004, 3 years after EA/PA co-worker MOW
Dday#2 8-6-13, 13 months EA/9months PA with co-worker MOW - caught not confessed
Rugsweep now, pay later. Ask me how I know.

Posts: 514 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
pizzalover
♀ Member
Member # 38336
Default  Posted: 9:24 PM, June 30th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know that I'll ever be able to forgive myself so how can I expect my BH to forgive me. He says that he hasn't forgiven me. I don't expect him to anytime soon. I did the most awful and devastating thing you could ever do to another person. Hopefully at some point I will forgive myself for what I've done to him and to others in my life. He has given me the gift each day of staying with me and trying to work things out. If he ever forgives me it will be the greatest gift I will ever get.


Trying to rebuild each day

Me - WW 39
Him - BH 40 (mpb1974)
2 Furrbabies - sweet cats

Met - 8/13/99
Started dating - 9/11/99
Moved in together - 3/03
Engaged - 6/5/09
Married - 8/21/10
D-Day - 1/24/13
Affair started 5/09


Posts: 517 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Pennsylvania
GetEvenInAZ
♀ Member
Member # 30891
Default  Posted: 3:43 AM, July 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgiveness for me started with conscious decision to just do it. I went against 40 years of personal history and warped view of forgiveness (whole forgive and forget thing) and made it a mission to at least try. And no one is more surprised than me that it is actually working!

As a BS, find it odd in that i am finding it much harder to forgive myself than xSO. I think this is because we are all too hard on ourselves. We are only human and sometimes we make poor decisions and while we need to own those decisions and actions we can also use them to learn and grow. Our past helps mold our present, but i don't think it should be branded on our foreheads for eternity if we are truly learning and struggling to be a better person.


Me: BW (44)
now xH (44)
20 yrs, 2 wonderful kids, and up to 5 - make it 6 DDays

Posts: 287 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: gilbert AZ
Topic Posts: 38
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