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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 21
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And if BS is morbidly obese, beats his wife or is a raging alcoholic, the idea that he isn't at fault too is absurd. We don't ask those questions because we don't want to go down the road of anything other than its not your fault.

"Daddy drinks because mommy's a whore"

The responsibility of being an asshole rests on the asshole. It doesn't matter if you're a junkie, alcoholic, adulterer, thief, murderer, grifter, what-the-fuck ever.

That people don't do the honorable thing very often just says that honorable people are uncommon. That doesn't suddenly redefine the concept of dishonorable.

I'll give you a challenge: even though I think A/A is hokey, they are at least there taking responsibility for their behavior. Go to a meeting and explain to them that it is too absurd absurd an idea that whatever that alcoholics spouse was doing has no fault in their choice to be a raging alcoholic. Count how many people don't look at you like you're insane, then disregard that number and work out why one selfishly abusive behavior - infidelity - is any more acceptable than any of the others you listed.

Cheating isn't testing the waters and binge drinking isn't a barrel tour.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 10:33 PM, July 9th (Wednesday)]


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7488 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So WW do a 'job shadow' first with AP, to see if there is something out there that's better than what they've got. It's not an exit affair per se, and many, in fact, don't exit.
I agree that this phenomenon happens, though. The issue is that an AP can never truly be 'better'. The grass is greener on the other side because it's fertilized with bullshit. I do think that many affairs, exit or otherwise, begin as slight diversions from everyday life...little window glimpses into the road not taken that grow infinitely more attractive the more often the WS goes to that 'fantasy well' and compares it subconsciously to the doldrums of everyday life.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2175 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Nitrobob
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Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ascendant, the skill of the predator is an issue too. Aniston faced off against Jolie and lost. Even at the level of the most beautiful women in the world, there is still the game.


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 135 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
5454real
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Default  Posted: 10:38 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the skill of the predator is an issue too

Nope, the character of the WS is the issue. Pitt could have dumped Aniston first.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry Bob, not angry. Limited typing ability on my phone, trying to be concise.

It's a touchy point around these parts because many of us had one DDAY, tried to 'fix' ourselves for our wives and got a second DDAY for our efforts.

What'd WAL say way back? "DDAY2: Everybody should have one"?

Having two DDAYs blows goats...and the only remotely positive aspect to come out of mine was the fact that I can look my wife in the eye and say, "I did everything you asked, and you still fucking did it."

That experience tends to relieve your 'blame yourself feelings' fairly quickly.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2175 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is no game, though, that's the thing. If you had told me before I got married that there was a game afoot that I was expected to pay and failure meant my wife blowing dudes, I would've opted out right away.

Funny how WW don't tell you about that particular caveat until AFTER they've cheated, huh?


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2175 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We are all adults here, and we are all ultimately responsible for the choices we make, regardless of how we feel. I hold that standard to BS's, WS's, MH's, and anyone else that is a competent adult. That's my general statement on placing fault when it comes to affairs.

If/when you worked with an IC to deal with your affair-related anger, did your IC want to work through your personal history? 'Cuz that's what mine wants to do, and I keep wanting to bring it back to the affair.

Ascendant - Yes, she did want to work through my personal history a bit, and it turned out to be a productive exercise. One day I went into my session, we got comfortable, and then I kind of unleashed a diatribe of anger about my situation. She said something like, "You don't 'do' anger very well, do you, Losfer?" I had another one of my SI pals say almost the same exact same thing to me in one of our PM threads, too. Did some digging, and found some stuff there. Anger wasn't really an emotion that was accepted in my household growing up. Just pinpointing that fact made a big difference in me being present with my anger, and dealing with it in a more healthy and conscious way. I still have some work to do in that department, but the work I've done thus far has been helpful to me, and collaterally to my wife, and maybe a few other people in my life. That's my personal experience with it, anyway. Since you asked.


Posts: 7559 | Registered: Dec 2010
foundoutlater
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Default  Posted: 12:38 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm on vacation and it's all good but we are non stop having so much fun it's getting exhausting. Had to log on though

Congrats WTH and Sunset

I felt compelled to post. I don't think there are innocents in marriage. Those that commit to a mirage try but sometimes fall short. But fucking someone else or fostering feelings with someone else is not falling short. That's bailing out or worse. Just think about it. How does fucking another girl help your marriage resolve the problem of your wife being a bitch (or whatever other real or imaginary issue). It does not. How is it a logical response to the problem? It is not. The issue(real or imaginary makes no difference) is the excuse for a selfish person to do whatever the fuck they want. It is the justification to green light getting something (attention, getting off, fantasy or whatever) that a person wants, damn the consequence. I think looking at our part in the marriage partnership can be a healthy exercise when it has nothing to do with infidelity because you had nothing to do with her infidelity. Nothing. Without that premise (which is where I spent too long and I think others do -both genders) a lot of damage is done.

Ok that's it. My heart has finally caught up with my brain. It ain't your fault. Maybe not innocent in the marriage but unanimous not guilty verdict as the cause of my wife fucking my friend. That's all on her.


Your beliefs dont make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1135 | Registered: Jul 2011
64fleet
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Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guarantee I am to blame for fWW's A's. I married her, after all. If I hadn't, it would have simply been dating.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5397 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
WearingTheHorns
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Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the congrats brothers, and congrats to you sunsets. Weird thing I remember from the D with my first W. I was at work on the day it went to court and I wasn't thinking about it. Suddenly I got this "disturbance in the force" feeling but shook it off. About 10 mins later my newly XW called to tell me it was final.

Regarding fault: I do go back and forth occasionally about whether or not I had any fault in her decision to cheat. Was I an inattentive H? Yes. Did I turn a deaf ear to her pleas? Yes. Did I push for a threesome? Yes. Does that place me at fault for her deciding to take those guys dicks into her? As a guy I used to work with would say, "Not just no, not just hell no, but HELL FUCK NO!" Could I have done things that might not have made her feel pushed in that direction? Yes, but when you get down to it, I wasn't standing there at the intersection of Adultery and Fidelity directing traffic. She had the map, she knew which way to go, and she made the conscious decision to turn the wrong way.


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 286 | Registered: Dec 2012
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Could I have done things that might not have made her feel pushed in that direction?
Hell, I'll even go so far as to say that this is a bridge too far, too. Yes, we can do things that result in our spouses feelings being hurt; that's true. But they own the response....because I guarantee you that if the WW had turned to a healthy coping mechanism like working out, or volunteering, or say, crochet, then they would have been more than happy to own that particular coping mechanism. We tend to only look for people to blame for our choices when we don't like what the results of those choices are.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2175 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Doesn't it really come down to choices? I can complain all day long about my upbringing and how shitty my parents are and on and on. At the end of the day I am ultimately responsible for the CHOICES I make. Does that come into play? Sure...but I am a fully functioning adult that knows right from wrong. Rationalizing or justifying my behavior based on some actual or percieved unmet want or need is really just an excuse to justify poor behavior.

Thing with marriage is that a conscious decision was made to committ to one person and no other. We even go through a whole ceremony to drive that point home. When the WW willingly choices to not live up to that agreement it is on her. We all have our faults and weaknesses, and so do our WW's. But we didn't choose to have an A on them. Marriage isn't a zero sum game. If you feel abused, used, unappreciated, etc there are ways to get out of it without putting the other person at risk of STD's, being dishonest, shaming, or abusing the other person. A person can CHOOSE to walk away with some dignity and respect without going nuclear by having an A.

[This message edited by RyeBread at 9:25 AM, July 10th (Thursday)]


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 1030 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Razor
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Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WTH: Regarding fault: I do go back and forth occasionally about whether or not I had any fault in her decision to cheat. Was I an inattentive H? Yes. Did I turn a deaf ear to her pleas? Yes. Did I push for a threesome? Yes. Does that place me at fault for her deciding to take those guys dicks into her? As a guy I used to work with would say, "Not just no, not just hell no, but HELL FUCK NO!" Could I have done things that might not have made her feel pushed in that direction? Yes, but when you get down to it, I wasn't standing there at the intersection of Adultery and Fidelity directing traffic. She had the map, she knew which way to go, and she made the conscious decision to turn the wrong way.

Anger at me was definitely a motivation to cheat for WW. I recently found a old journal (from about 8 years post Dday) of hers where she was complaining about me and how horrible I was. That paragraph ended with *but at least I got a few good licks in*. meaning that she got back at me by fucking OM. So at some level her LTA was about anger and desire for revenge.

I think the real issue is the fact that for our WW cheating was a option that was considered. It was there on the table next to counseling and divorce.

When I get mad at WW I dont ever think *well Ill go fuck someone else!* because that option isnt on the table.

But that option was on the table for her. And maybe thats part of the brokenness of her.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
Sal1995
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Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can only relate to my own experience of feeling neglected, unappreciated, undersexed, etc. Objectively, I think I had more legit marital complaints through the years than she did. If feeling "pushed" into the direction of an A was any justification at all, I could have had at least three of them since 2000. Like a lot of men, I got nothing but her leftovers once the babies came along.

Now, that doesn't mean that I can't, or shouldn't, look at the H I was pre-DDay with a critical eye. If she owns her A, I need to own all the ways I was less than the best husband I could be. Because that's mine to own no matter what she did or didn't do. If R is the goal, then both spouses should try to be better spouses and create a better marriage. Because who wants mediocrity?


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1456 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
BAMAC
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Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I'm legally divorced as of this morning. I didn't even have to go to court. It seems weird that they can just do that without me.


DDays - 1/26/2013 | 3/23/14
Divorced 7/10/2014

Posts: 84 | Registered: May 2013 | From: TX
StrongBeard
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Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What'd WAL say way back? "DDAY2: Everybody should have one"?

Having two DDAYs blows goats...and the only remotely positive aspect to come out of mine was the fact that I can look my wife in the eye and say, "I did everything you asked, and you still fucking did it."

That experience tends to relieve your 'blame yourself feelings' fairly quickly.

I said almost exactly this to my W today at lunch.

I can say, though, that DDay #2 seems to have waken the W up completely to the true extent of the devastation she has borne. DDay #1 should have been enough to do that, but then again, the A should have never started, either.


March 2010: WW ONS

February-ish 2014: Beginning of EA
March-ish 2014: EA morphed into PA
April 16, 2014: DDay
July 7, 2014: 2nd DDay of continued EA (no PA)
Currently: on the roller coaster, headed for R


Posts: 31 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Front Range
Schadenfreude
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Default  Posted: 4:42 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BAMAC, I assume you reviewed and signed papers. Court appearance in that case is a mere formality. Be glad you didn't waste your time.

Posts: 892 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Midwest
GotPlayed
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Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@BAMAC, congratulations! I'm sure it's a weird feeling.

I have been putting off mine but the marital house will sell soon, setting the stage for a possible final settlement on my end (I may exchange my share in another property we own together for a bigger share of the marital home to just.get.this.pushed).

did your IC want to work through your personal history?

My IC has basically allowed me to talk about whatever I want to talk about, but every time that I mention my personal history and past pain from childhood he definitely prods a bit. Once it happened at the end of a session and he said "we're at a very important point here, so let's try to continue from here next time because you really need to talk about this."

So yes, it's generally the consensus that our own "issues" on how we relate to the important people in our lives (and possibly what we will and will not put up with, our anger, our pain) stems from our personal history.

It's uncomfortable at the time, but I've found it cathartic and productive.

if BS is morbidly obese, beats his wife or is a raging alcoholic, the idea that he isn't at fault too is absurd

StillGoing answered better than I could, but here's my take anyway:

When I discussed with my IC he said something along the lines of, "this particular situation (the A and even the in-progress D) is not your fault. However, of every self-justifying blame-shift WW said, write it all down and keep it, but don't look at it. At some point in the far future, when you feel healthy, open it back up. At that point some of these things will ring true, and some you will know is BS. Work on changing whichever of these things you think would make you a better person".

So we WS's need to be aware that whatever our faults, wrong was done to us. We need to heal before we try to run the marathon of improving ourselves. And learning from the experience will make us better.

But from that to being "at fault" for her behavior there's a giant gulf, a chasm, as nobody put a gun in their heads to do this - they instead premeditated and carried though the A.

Each person is responsible for their own actions. Rather than feel guilty for something we didn't even know bothered them to that point before, we should get up, shake off, heal and then learn from the experience. Our WWs won't and will continue to betray their future couples over and over - can you imagine the hell and drama that entails. If we learn from our experience and become better people as a result we will one day attract a worthwhile mate for life, or at the very least be happy without one.

And that, my friends, is how you do turn PTSD into PTG (Post-Traumatic Growth)


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 755 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
BAMAC
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Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Schadenfreude, I had already signed the settlement agreement and divorce decree. I'm still going to have to go to the court tomorrow to pick up a certified copy of my divorce decree that my bank needs for my mortgage.

GP, I think it's going to take a while to really sink in, even though we've been separated for 3.5 months. It brought up a lot of sadness and hurt. I had a hard time keeping it together at work once my attorney told me it was official and I cried the whole drive home. The marital home still has to sell, but I should be moving out in a week and a half or so. I keep thinking about what she said in our last counseling session (post DD2 and post divorce filing), that she felt relief when she found out I filed. She also tried to tell me that women in happy marriages don't have affairs, which I called bullshit on.


DDays - 1/26/2013 | 3/23/14
Divorced 7/10/2014

Posts: 84 | Registered: May 2013 | From: TX
Sal1995
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Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, July 10th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just to be clear, when you guys reference "D-Day 2" are you referring discovery of a subsequent affair, a resumption of the affair with AP 1, or TT?

I have a friend IRL who managed to reconcile with his W after she had a second affair with another man (the first was rugswept), but find that unimaginable. I really do admire him, that's eating a double-stacked shit sandwich. But he did what he felt was best for his kids, his wife saw the light and changed her ways, and today (3 years past the 2nd A Dday) they seem happier than ever.

Not sure I have what it takes to go through this more than once in a lifetime with the same woman.


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1456 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
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