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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 21
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, July 12th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've only been to one, Ascendant. That was enough for me.

Have fun!


Posts: 7620 | Registered: Dec 2010
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, July 12th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And you have fun, too, GP. Lots to do in Vegas!

Posts: 7620 | Registered: Dec 2010
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh man...I am feeling it today. Had to be at work at 7 am.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2180 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ascendant, ummmmmm. Bachelor party, work at 7 the next morning?
Bet that won't happen again.

Sorry for your pain. You'll know better next time!


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3022 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Builds character. Or makes characters...can't remember.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4022 | Registered: Dec 2011
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Way to man up, Ascendant. A lesser man would have called in sick.


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1461 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
sunsetslost
♂ Member
Member # 39885
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There were fish. Big ones.

[URL=http://s28.photobucket.com/user/jojodadancinbear/media/C3214045-E369-4406-A808-7104B4067E74_zpscqgbwsuh.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s28.photobucket.com/user/jojodadancinbear/media/7810509E-E900-45AA-9584-AFAAD96507C9_zpstt29af0p.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s28.photobucket.com/user/jojodadancinbear/media/AF67DB69-A471-4ABE-8178-2CF0C409DF36_zpswo4lrgue.jpg.html][/URL]


Divorced 7/11/14. New Beginning on the Gulf of Mexico. It's real nice.

Posts: 773 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: The beach.
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm thinking Bogart. To Have and Have Not.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10420 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Nitrobob
♂ Member
Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi gents!

Learned a lot hearing your responses. I don't personally think I was a bad husband or that I brought this on myself. In fact, I suspect that the men who feel strongly that way probably never come to a site like this to heal. SI is for blind sided spouses. The men who were cheating on their wives when their wives cheated are probably a bit more circumspect about whining too much!

So another question, really a fuck up by me. I'm in Vegas with WW for 4 days, its evening, she is dolled up looks gorgeous actually. At 46 I'd say first in a few hundred in her division. But 25 is a different division, and in Vegas, skin is in. So this girl walks by, white with a light tan, and she is amazing, ass you could set a glass on, long legs, wearing a bikini with a netted coverup and high heels. No tats, nice jewelry, not a pro, just a10, probably a model or cheerleader; boyfriend a very big black fellow, probably a professional athlete I think I recognize. So I look and watch her pass. Not aggressively because I want to live another day as does every other guy in there watching her parade by. She is why we wanted to be professional athletes.

WW saw her before I did, of course, and was Pissed.

I apologized immediately, but she kept at it, talking about it ruining the evening, spoiling the mood, and I started triggering.
Thinking, I just looked! How about chatting her up? Getting her number? Texting a month? Having a secret date? Then sex? Lots and lots of steps right? But I didn't go there. I just kept apologizing. I realized I can't let her A be my go to place when I screw up.

[This message edited by Nitrobob at 7:16 PM, July 13th (Sunday)]


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 138 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All I see Sunsets are two mean snags...fish or it didn't happen.

ETA: Still waiting on a car photo...can't remember who from.

[This message edited by Tred at 8:04 PM, July 13th (Sunday)]


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4022 | Registered: Dec 2011
HoldingTogether
♂ Member
Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Evening Gents,

I realize that I am a little late weighing in on the subject, but it's Sunday night, I got a little time and if you gentlemen will indulge me I feel I'd like to pontificate a bit on the following:

And if BS is morbidly obese, beats his wife or is a raging alcoholic, the idea that he isn't at fault too is absurd. We don't ask those questions because we don't want to go down the road of anything other than its not your fault. It is quite possible that we did things to create the risk that WW, after all an imperfect human being, like us, would stray. I think we have to honestly look at that part, rather than close our minds repeating its not my fault it's not my fault it's not my fault...except in JFO, until the dust clears.

This, with as much respect as possible, is utter bullshit. I apologize if I offend but I simply cannot describe it in any other way. That being said I certainly understand where this line of thinking comes from. Been down that road many times myself, I know all the dips, curves and potholes. But after 3 years 11 months and 18 days of intermittently going down that road I can assure you it goes absolutely fucking nowhere.

As it so happens, I AM am alcoholic. Recovering, but still an alcoholic. Four years sober this July 25th. For those of you who didn't notice the math, I'll go ahead and spoil the surprise..... I got sober the day after Dday(which is a whole other wildly hilarious and entertaining story that I am saving for an eventual epic fucking post). Now, I don't know if I would characterize myself with the modifier "raging", but the alcoholic part certainly fits.

So... following the logic of the proceeding quote, my FWW was at least partial justified in lying to me for a solid year whilst fucking one of my best friends. Due, of course to my creating the risk that my FWW, and imperfect human after all, would stray. Because, even though my drinking myself stupid every single night wasn't in any way aimed at her. Even though it didn't, in the eyes of any reasonable person, reflect poorly upon her as a person or a wife. Even though my drinking was solely my personal issue and in no way my wife's fault.. Despite all of those facts, surely my drinking couldn't help but have a negative effect upon my wife's emotional health, Right?

Of course it did. Your not about to get any fucking argument from me about about one's personal issues and dysfunctions potentially having a powerful and destructive impact on their spouse's mental health. Hell, I've spent several years as the fucking poster boy for that particular affliction. What I take issue with is the idea, implication or slightest hint that my drinking in some way excuses, explains, rationalizes or even makes understandable her decision to let my "buddy" stick his cock into her.

Let's turn the argument on its head for a moment.

My FWW's affair with my friend certainly had a negative and destructive impact on my mental health. It certainly created an unhealthy and dysfunctional environment within my marriage. So you might say that my FWW might have created the risk that I, after all an imperfect human being, like herself, would BEAT the ever lovin shit out of her.. After all, in some cultures that would not only be acceptable, it would be fucking expected if not fucking mandatory.

Now, if I came here, after putting FWW into the hospital with a concussion, and tried for even a fucking nanosecond to imply that my physical violence towards her was in any way justified, expected, or understandable due to the stressful emotional condition caused by her infidelity? If I tried to pull that shit? You and every other decent human being on this site would shut me down in a fuckin instant.

Tell me just how it is that my FWW's emotional violence towards me is somehow the exception to this communal accountability circle we are all having here? Are we making any other exceptions? Maybe it would be understandable if I went out and had a revenge affair? Or maybe if I fall off the wagon after a particularly bad trigger. Think all the other alcoholics at my meetings are gonna give me a pass because my wife had an affair?

Of course if I were to beat the piss out of FWW, or go out and have a revenge affair, or start drinking again all because of the damage caused by FWW's affairs? Well I suppose any or all of those actions would be creating an environment of risk that my FWW might stray again... Which of course might create the risk that I might beat the shit out of her, or have and affair, or drink some more, maybe take up heroin to numb the pain... Actions which, of course, would create the risk that my FWW might stray... Which of course blah, blah, blah. Take it out as far as you like, it's all just one big justified, understandable, and reasonable vicious fucking cycle that we all get to ride round and round and round till one of us finally loses their shit and kills the other.

Fun stuff.

At the end of the day I have to own my drinking, with all of the damage and hurt it caused. And my FWW has to own her infidelity, with all of the damage and hurt that it caused.

And we do.

And we are.

All while trying our level best to keep the two issues totally and completely separate and segregated from one another. It's the only way we have found that actually works. Anything else just leads to recriminations and a shitload of retroactive justifications which, while they might make us each feel a whole lot less guilty about our own actions, get us absolutely no further along toward becoming healthy fully functional human beings.

One last point I'd like to make if I might. And it's expanding upon a point made earlier by 1985 (who happens to be one seriously wise and centered cat I might add). In all my time here on SI I have heard of only one WS who claimed to have announced to her BS her intention to have an affair before diving onto another man's dick. One, just one. Every other WS I have encountered here conducted their infidelity in secrecy and stealth, creeping about like thieves in the night. My FWW, your WW, apperently 99.99% of WS's all lied and gaslighted and snuck around.

Which means that, in addition to robbing me of my pride, and my sense of self worth, and my emotional support, and my primacy in her heart, and the exclusivity of her physical affection. In addition to that. My FWW robbed me of something much more precious and important.

She robbed me of my Agency. My ability to chose and direct for myself the course and trajectory of my own life.

By deliberately concealing from me vital and pertinent information that would have had a direct and enormous impact on the choices I would have otherwise made had I been in possession that information? By doing that my FWW reduced me to something less than a free autonomous adult human being. She made it impossible for me to truly be the master of my own fate.

And that is something that I never did to her. And it makes a difference in how you look at this kind of stuff doesn't it?

Just some thoughts, (well, a whole lot of thoughts lol)

HT


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 455 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Appreciate those thoughts, HT. Good stuff there.


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1461 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not sure I agree completely HT.

Sure, in a black and white world absolutely nothing we do has any impact whatsoever on whether our WW's decide to cheat. If they are unhappy they should divorce first. But what if they have conflicted feelings? What if they are undecided? Sure, they shouldn't cheat. But I think that if we are morbibly obese, alcoholic, semi-abusive, self-absorbed, blah, blah, it does set in motion things that might cause them to be vulnerable.

And for what it's worth, I'm an alcoholic too. so I'm not casting any blame that doesn't also fall on me. But from my experience, it's not a black and white world. It's just gray. I agree, they own all responsibility for their decisions. but that doesn't mean that we might have contributed to an environment that makes them vulnerable to making bad decisions. If you're an alcoholic, don't hang out in bars. If you're constantly in bars through no fault of your own and you take a sip, of course, it's your fault for taking the sip. We're responsible for our decisions. that doesn't mean that constantly being in bars was good for you. we're not robots. we're humans.

[This message edited by mike7 at 9:56 PM, July 13th (Sunday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
Nitrobob
♂ Member
Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 10:11 PM, July 13th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HT


you have to wonder why every WW snuck around. We all say D or fix the marriage, but don't A.

But no one does it that way, it's a pipe dream.

As I said, WW job shadow, test drive, cake eat, whatever you want to call it. That is just the nature of the beast. It's not honorable, of course, but it is just the human condition. M is a lot to give up without testing the waters, or they hope to have both security with us and excitement with AP; either way, they fuck first and ask questions later.

In terms of fault, I agree the diplomatic strategy is that each spouse owns their own shit for the purpose of R.

However, I believe that there is that there is a complex dynamic between two people, and one behaving badly can predictably make the other behave badly. You are correct that there is a difference in the secrecy. But alcoholics drink secretly, and obese people sneak down for snacks during the night. There can be other secrets in a marriage besides infidelity.

Again, I am just trying to spur honest discussion about this issue, not make anyone upset. When no one does what we think they should before the A, we have to reevaluate our perspective, IMHO.



Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 138 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 12:10 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alcoholism can be a definite stage setter for a slippery slope into a deep shithole distortion of marriage, and an EXCUSE for a wayward to stray. Brings up Co-dependent issues and such as well. However, HT, I agree with you 100% that the WW should own the affair 100%, and you should own your drinking. They ARE two separate issues.


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
HeartFullOfHoles
♂ Member
Member # 42874
Default  Posted: 12:34 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow a bachelor part and then needing to be at work by 7:00AM the next morning. That's a rookie mistake that I'm guessing won't be repeated.

Tred,

It is I who is delinquent with the photo. Haven't been back to the house yet. It's on my list. I have not forgotten.

I certainly did things that put my STBXWW in a vulnerable position just like she did the same to me. These actions were further complicated by her FOO issues where things I did had more effect than one would have expected. The difference in all this is I chose not to cheat while she chose a different path. So yes I contributed to her vulnerability, but I did not contribute to her poor choice. I never said it was okay or thought it would make things better if she fell in love with another man.

She says she tried to tell me about her problems, but all the counselling sessions before, during and to some extend after her affair were about how bad I was and what I was not doing right and how she was being this great wife. Because she couldn't/wouldn't accept her part I had a hard time accepting what she was saying. If she thought she was being a great wife than I was a great husband based on the dysfunction I was experiencing from her. If we found a counsellor who called her out on her stuff she immediately needed to find a new one since the current one wasn't getting her what she wanted. I always felt like all our sessions before DDay were beat up on HFOH and that was not going to work for me. It made me defensive and not very receptive to the part I needed to hear.

On a high note. I spent most of today giving my youngest a birthday she will not soon forget. Not expensive just a lot of thought to show I care about her and know what she is interested in. She was beaming much of the day and that made me feel good. My heart still aches because I miss them so much, but patience and showing them how I feel may pay off in unexpected ways.


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2014
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:48 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that maybe we want to know that once we're married, our wives would want only us forever no matter what we do or how we change. this is perhaps a chance for permanence in an impermanent world.

but I'm going to be shallow for a moment. This isn't my personal situation, it's just a thought experiment.


what if we married a beautiful woman. we loved her. but over the years she let herself go. horribly. she went from a beautiful 130 pounds to 300 pounds of weight. what if she stopped worrying about her hygiene such that she had a bad smell about her. We asked her repeatedly, would you be willing to work out? lose some weight? maybe we could join a club? Maybe you could bathe once a week? But she refused. she was happy with herself. On the other hand, we have stayed in shape and have remained active. We like to go running, or hiking, or whatever. Things she's never like to do and still won't do.

I don't believe we have the right to cheat, but do we have the right to divorce?


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 12:54 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On a hypothetical note, throw some flour and find the spot. Realistically, fuckin run for the door and don't look back.


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i would have to concur.

but I guess that means that "until death do us part" is really "only while you're still someone I want."

I think our views on marriage come from a different time. Where the average life span was maybe 45 years and where families chose spouses for their children. In that case, the purpose of marriage really was for procreation, passing on genes, and the melding of families. Consequently cheating, particularly by the wife, was a serious offense.

But I think that many of us, certainly me, yearns for "true love" that survives all. I hope to have a partner that I can happily share my successes and failures with. Someone that I know is always in my corner. In reality, we have a social contract that changes dynamically as life progresses.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
HoldingTogether
♂ Member
Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 4:32 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Sure, in a black and white world absolutely nothing we do has any impact whatsoever on whether our WW's decide to cheat. If they are unhappy they should divorce first. But what if they have conflicted feelings? What if they are undecided? Sure, they shouldn't cheat. But I think that if we are morbibly obese, alcoholic, semi-abusive, self-absorbed, blah, blah, it does set in motion things that might cause them to be vulnerable.

Sure in a black and white world absolutely nothing a woman does has any impact whatsoever on whether some dude decides to rape her. If some dude is hot for her he should ask her out. But what if she won't go out with him? What if she dresses really slutty? What if she's kind of flirty and a tease? Sure the dude shouldn't rape her . But what if she just walks around just asking for it, blah, blah it could set in motion things that make her vulnerable to being raped.

Sounds different in that context doesn't it?

Look I agree that it isn't a black and white world. But for all intents and purposes we all need to live with some black and white rules. Other wise we are living our lives on one awfully slippery fucking slope, just one justification or rationalization away from behaving like fucking animals.

Here is and example, I have always lived my life with the rule that men do not hit women. Period. End of story. No mental debate going on there. I'm not gonna let myself consider a circumstance in which me hitting a woman is acceptable because as long as I live with the rule that there isn't one I am not in danger of getting pissed off and moving that line. Like; I guess it's ok to hit a woman if she's threatening me gets moved to: I guess it's ok to hit her if she's talking shit to me. See what I mean? It isn't a line I am gonna cross because there isn't a fucking line at all. It's an absolute.

The world might be grey when it comes to most things but my morality certainly doesn't have to be one if them.

HT


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 455 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
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