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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 21
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 4:45 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can choose to live by black and white rules. no one else has to. in reality, men do hit women. men do rape women. men do get away with raping women under certain circumstances. it's grey.

your morality doesn't have to be grey. you get to choose the way you want. you don't get to choose for anyone else.

but... you seem like a very thoughtful guy. i'd be willing to bet if you really thought about it, you might not be so sure about what is black and what is white.

for example, it might be black and white to you that you would never kill someone. but what if someone was killing your daughter? but what if your daughter had just killed their child?

fwiw - i agree with most of what you posted.

[This message edited by mike7 at 5:43 AM, July 14th (Monday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Way too many hypotheticals for me...it comes down to where is your moral compass pointed. This is life, not Philosophy 101 Situational Ethics. I'll reserve judgement for what I would do in any given situation to when I'm actually in that situation. See, before DDay I was certain how I would act in certain situations. Such as if my wife sucked another mans cock I'd divorce her ass and never look back. I was wrong about myself there - so I'm just not that certain anymore.

I've had the pleasure to spend time with HT - I can vouch that he's a great designated driver . I could of done without the ABBA soundtrack, but that's another story.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4003 | Registered: Dec 2011
HoldingTogether
♂ Member
Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can choose to live by black and white rules. no one else has to.

I know. And that's the damnable pity of it isn't it?

in reality, men do hit women. men do rape women. men do get away with raping women under certain circumstances. it's grey

Again, I know. And we, as a society, universally condemn and vilify that behavior. Just because it happens doesn't make it excusable or justifiable. It's not grey. I'm sorry it just isn't.

your morality doesn't have to be grey. you get to choose the way you want. you don't get to choose for anyone else.

Again, I know. The only person who I have any control over at all is myself. Which is the whole point I have been trying to make. You're an alcoholic, if you've spent any time in the program at all you surely must have encountered the concept of giving up the effort to control or take responsibility for the actions of others. This idea that we some how can expect people to behave one way or another, that we can somehow, through out own actions ever truly control the outcome is the essence of the sort of hubris that lies at the heart many people's alcoholism.

Look, I think that we may be having a semantic argument here. I am certainly not arguing against empathy for the mindset of the WS. Shit, empathy is the cornerstone of Reconciliation. My ability to empathize with my FWW's state of mind at the time of her affair is the reason that I am able to see her as something other than a moustache twirling villain bent on my utter destruction. With out that I don't see how R would even be possible. I am simply arguing that just because I can empathize with her mental state, just because I can sympathize with it, just because I can see how it contributed to the whole fucked up situation, does NOT mean that I have to own any of the responsibility for her fucked up actions.

And that, this idea that I am at least partial responsible for her affair is the original point that I was attempting to dispute.

Because I am not. Just as she would not be responsible in any way shape or form if I went out today and polished off a fifth of whiskey. That shit would be solely on me.

HT


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 433 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
mike7
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Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just because I can see how it contributed to the whole fucked up situation, does NOT mean that I have to own any of the responsibility for her fucked up actions.

we are in complete agreement.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
cvs2kkids
♂ Member
Member # 41298
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I apologized immediately, but she kept at it, talking about it ruining the evening, spoiling the mood, and I started triggering.
Thinking, I just looked! How about chatting her up? Getting her number? Texting a month? Having a secret date? Then sex? Lots and lots of steps right? But I didn't go there. I just kept apologizing. I realized I can't let her A be my go to place when I screw up.

Nitrobob,

There's 2 things that struck me;

1) You gave a very detailed description of the girl you looked at, instead of something simple like "she was young and beautiful". My first impression was you had more then a passing glance, but a "Stare to burn to memory".

2) Your wife is still quite insecure. Is she in IC? I'm concerned she is ripe to stray again as she seeks external validation. Or worse, uses your actions to justify an A. Most wives would have made a snide remark to let you know they caught you, but then give it up.


Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your mind


Posts: 234 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: NB Canada
MadeOfScars
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Member # 42231
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know what I really like about this thread? The ability of everyone here to be open and honest, not BS each other, be real, but still be respectful. Just saying...

There's quite a bit I can personally focus on from the last few pages of conversation, but this especially struck me FWIW:

She robbed me of my Agency. My ability to chose and direct for myself the course and trajectory of my own life.

By deliberately concealing from me vital and pertinent information that would have had a direct and enormous impact on the choices I would have otherwise made had I been in possession that information? By doing that my FWW reduced me to something less than a free autonomous adult human being. She made it impossible for me to truly be the master of my own fate.

And that is something that I never did to her. And it makes a difference in how you look at this kind of stuff doesn't it?

While there's so much damage that comes from this kind of betrayal, I think HT put into words this aspect that has continued to linger in the back of my mind and still can make me very angry at times. My ex stole, and I do say "stole" a part of my life away. I won't say (as I did maybe right after d-day) that she stole 12 years of my life - the whole time were were together wasn't all a lie. At whatever point she first practiced to deceive me though, like HT said, she hid from me vital information that would directly affect how I proceed as a man, as an autonomous human being, had there been any honesty. I continued to behave as a dedicated and monogamous husband. I continued to plan around her needs, her family's needs. Had I known, I'm not saying I would have had my own affair or anything like that, rather I could have possibly been part of the decision-making around whether our marriage was worth saving, a decision she admitted to unilaterally making.

I still remember her saying "I've been thinking about this for a long time now" about whether or not we were built-to-last. "I," not "we." When one half of the marriage starts having those thoughts loudly echoing in their minds, I strongly feel it is their duty to let the other half know. Instead, a vital, vital piece of my life hung in the balance, and I was intentionally kept in-the-dark about it. That's a betrayal that stings as much, if not more, than the mental images of what she was doing with other men. The time she stole from me that could have been better dedicated to reshaping my own life, that's brutal. All that I continued to do during that time was due to believing I was still in a role, an existence, that was being actively stripped from me without my knowledge. The planning was done and new groundwork was in place, and I had no say. My life was being drastically overhauled, and I was intentionally kept out of the process until it hit the point of no return - damn....

[This message edited by MadeOfScars at 10:14 AM, July 14th (Monday)]


“The wound is the place where the Light enters you.” ― Rumi

Posts: 1225 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Texas
StrongBeard
♂ New Member
Member # 44027
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello and welcome, StrongBeard! Got my attention pretty quick.

What styles do you like to brew?

Pretty much anything. Right now, I'm working on getting my Belgians dialed in.

She robbed me of my Agency. My ability to chose and direct for myself the course and trajectory of my own life.

This could not be more true. Taking it a step further, even, she actually dictated the course and trajectory of my life (for some period of time). When I was suspicious, I was consumed by the pursuit of truth. Post-DDay, I was consumed by a flood of pain, anger, confusion, hate, and all manner of unpleasant emotions. After confrontation, at least, I have been able to [b]choose[/b] the hard, painful path toward R, but the roughly 2 months prior to that were not mine to control.


March 2010: WW ONS

February-ish 2014: Beginning of EA
March-ish 2014: EA morphed into PA
April 16, 2014: DDay
July 7, 2014: 2nd DDay of continued EA (no PA)
Currently: on the roller coaster, headed for R


Posts: 31 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Front Range
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She robbed me of my Agency. My ability to chose and direct for myself the course and trajectory of my own life.

This^^^
Instead, a vital, vital piece of my life hung in the balance, and I was intentionally kept in-the-dark about it. That's a betrayal that stings as much, if not more, than the mental images of what she was doing with other men. The time she stole from me that could have been better dedicated to reshaping my own life, that's brutal. All that I continued to do during that time was due to believing I was still in a role, an existence, that was being actively stripped from me without my knowledge. The planning was done and new groundwork was in place, and I had no say. My life was being drastically overhauled, and I was intentionally kept out of the process until it hit the point of no return - damn....

And this^^^
are what I really think gets to the nub of the matter. Without our knowledge or consent our lives were being changed in a very deep and fundamental way, and until dday we had no way of knowing it was happening. Our spouses made the decision to change us in ways they, nor we, could ever have imagined. This was no, "I'm going to lose 50lbs", "I'm going to give up the bottle", "I'm going into rehab for my painkiller addiction" type change. This transformed us to the very core of our beings. Changed us in who we are. Changed us in how we see, and how we live our lives. We are creatures of free will and when we are changed in ways we don't want, we rebel against it, usually in futility, and this was no exception. No matter how much healing takes place, we are not the people we were before this happened, no matter how much we may try to convince ourselves otherwise. We may tell ourselves "I'm the same man I was before", but deep down there is something that has changed, or perhaps even died inside of us whether we like it or not. Knowing what we know, having been through what we have been through, life will never be the same, nor will we. We can only learn to live with it because there's no going back. We have to adapt to this change and make it a part of us that makes us better men. Clearly some here have done just that, but it's what all of us need to strive for.


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 281 | Registered: Dec 2012
Nitrobob
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Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

CVS,

Yes, lol, I burned it to hard drive. That isn't what got me caught, though. When she came toward me I only glanced.

It was the curiousity of what the back of her looked like that made my head turn a moment later. Damn.


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell — 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 134 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It was the curiousity of what the back of her looked like that made my head turn a moment later. Damn.

I remember hearing a comedian talking about getting busted for the very same thing. He tried talking his way out of it by telling his W, "I wasn't staring at her. I was thinking how good that dress would look on you (and how good she would look on me)."


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 281 | Registered: Dec 2012
Nitrobob
♂ Member
Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is worried ill have a revenge affair. I've thought about it, but it would be more for validation then revenge. Nothing WW can do will make me feel confident again, so I think I need something. Then I realize, wayward thinking there, and snap out of it.

WHT, hilarious line.

Cvs, yeah, I assume any screw up, no matter how small, can drive them back to AP. my WW has quite an inventory to choose from.

[This message edited by Nitrobob at 4:04 PM, July 14th (Monday)]


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell — 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 134 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is worried ill have a revenge affair.

Early in R my wife suggested that I probably had one somewhere in the past. Which is completely not the case. Hell, I've never had a conversation with a woman I wouldn't want her to overhear. The insinuation pissed me off something bad and very nearly derailed R.

Thieves think that everyone else is a thief, cheaters think that everyone else is a cheater or potential cheater. I think most people think that what goes on inside our own heads is "normal", or close to it. We tend to project our own values and thought processes onto others, which is why I missed so many red flags when my wife was out running around. I couldn't imagine betraying her, and assumed she was built the same way.

Live and learn. Your wife will get over it Bob. And if this causes her some anxiety, that's the price she has to pay for her misdeeds.

We may tell ourselves "I'm the same man I was before", but deep down there is something that has changed, or perhaps even died inside of us whether we like it or not. Knowing what we know, having been through what we have been through, life will never be the same, nor will we.

You know, I think this is mostly true, but...I'm a much better man now than I was before D Day. The past 17 months has been more painful than I could have imagined, but the flip side is that pain has had some kind of purifying effect. I was off the rails in my own way. But it was all happening internally. I wasn't going out doing any bad deeds, but my thought processes were out of whack and my priorities were skewed and I didn't even realize it. So even though I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy and wish there was some other way I could have changed for the better, I'll take the good where I can find it. I recall something someone posted on this site once about a pretty flower growing out of a manure pile, or something like that. My wife has also made a radical change for the better, although apparently the bar wasn't that high.

As for the statement that something has died inside of us...maybe. A sense of security, maybe. And certainly a level of respect for my wife's integrity and decision-making. But, if what "died" was an illusion, then good riddance. It's much better to be armed with the truth IMO. We can use the truth to make informed decisions.

Great discussion we have going on here.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 7:44 PM, July 14th (Monday)]


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1451 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


However, I believe that there is that there is a complex dynamic between two people, and one behaving badly can predictably make the other behave badly. You are correct that there is a difference in the secrecy. But alcoholics drink secretly, and obese people sneak down for snacks during the night. There can be other secrets in a marriage besides infidelity.

Again, I am just trying to spur honest discussion about this issue, not make anyone upset. When no one does what we think they should before the A, we have to reevaluate our perspective, IMHO.

Going back to this, I don't think it's complex at all. Nor do I agree that anyone 'makes' anyone else act in a particular way. many people choose to respond poorly to shitty behavior, but again, that choice is 100% on the individual.

My wife and I did not have sex for a year or so. I am the kind of guy who is happy to go at it a couple times a day unless I am sick as hell. We were in the process of S. Is it predictable that I would shop around and secretly hook up with another woman? Does my wife behaving like a cold bitch towards me predict my adulterous behavior?

I don't think it does. I never even thought about cheating. The concept that I might eventually have sex with a woman other than my wife did enter my head, and I was relieved to defer that until after we had split up. because as shitty as our relationship was, we were still married and there were still agreements and expectations. She broke them, I did not.

The idea that it leads predictably to certain behaviors is another way of making those behaviors either acceptable on some level, or the fault of the other party. Neither are true at any point. Just as if I HAD gone out and fucked a string of crack whores (or meth whores or whatever they are now) it would have been on me, and my choice to respond that way. Would it have been because we hadn't had sex for a year? No, it would have been because I was too chickenshit to say "I need a D fast tracked because I am too horny to wait around on you."

There are no nuances or complexities. They simply do not exist, other than to muddy the waters of responsibility and spread around blame.


As to you checking out some chick, your wife needs to get the fuck over it IMO. She opened that door, her method of closing it should not be 0 to Bitch Mode in three seconds if you're not leering at this woman. I mean if you're ogling some chick and shit, obviously thinking Hot Damn, That Is An Ass Worthy Of A Tap Like Dule Hill's Shoes then yeah, I can see that, but somehow I doubt you were being a complete asshole about it and the unreasonable factor lay far, far closer to your wife than you.

eta:

Well, i did think about cheating, but I thought what a shitty thing that would be to do. Durr on me. Especially since a co worker had just gone through the whole being a BH thing and I saw first hand how shitty it all was.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 4:32 PM, July 14th (Monday)]


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7477 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not sure why, but I thought of the Menz when I heard this joke:

After days of driving, a trucker walks into a empty small-town diner and sees three signs above the counter. The first reads "Hamburger: $5," the second reads "Cheeseburger: $6," and the third reads "Handjob: $10." As the man approached, a beautiful young woman dressed in an apron came out from the kitchen and asked coyly, "What can I do for you, hon?"

"Are you the one who gives the handjobs?" asked the trucker.

"Why yes," answered the woman with a knowing smile. "Yes I am."

"Well then go wash your fucking hands, because I want a cheeseburger."


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4003 | Registered: Dec 2011
Nitrobob
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Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lol the joke was great. In the retelling remembering coyly and knowing smile would be critical.

As far as no sex for a year and not cheating, you are a better man than I. Kudos to you.

I didn't blame my wife for getting upset, but i didn't lear. She had never seen me check out a girl before when I was with her, she said. I guess maybe I hadn't. But my boundaries aren't the same. I'm much more flirtatious at work, confide private thoughts to some women there, and in general ignore all of the advice in the "not just friends" handbook. It's an acting out I guess, sort of a general fuck you to my predicament and pain. I don't hit on anyone, but I tempt fate now. I'm like the fireman that likes being near the fire I guess.


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell — 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 134 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
nuance
♂ Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There are no nuances

Hey!
Now, seriously: I can't empathize with the WS. Just can't. Fidelity and love go together in my definition of love. It's like rooting for the Yankees when you always loved the Mets. Never gonna happen.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1216 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
cvs2kkids
♂ Member
Member # 41298
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

..my wife suggested that I probably had one somewhere in the past. Which is completely not the case. Hell, I've never had a conversation with a woman I wouldn't want her to overhear. The insinuation pissed me off something bad and very nearly derailed R.

My STBX had a 1 year LTA and now a second one with a different AP after promising to re-devote herself. Yet, she says, "I knew you're will a girl names Gale" I know No such a name. Where did I meet her? "FB". No friends by that name. Why would you think that? "I heard things". Yea, probably from a potential AP trying to get in your pants. I've told her st stop listening to those voices in your head as they're messing with you.

She's told the kids (older teens) about it, but they don't buy it (between looking after them and the house, no energy for anything else).

To me, it's the WS trying to justify their screwed-up selves. She throws it up at me once in awhile, but crickets to her.

[This message edited by cvs2kkids at 9:40 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your mind


Posts: 234 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: NB Canada
cvs2kkids
♂ Member
Member # 41298
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There's a topic in General that is so hot topic that I don't dare post there, but want the menz perspective.

Essentially, there was an article that says a sexless marriage is as bad for the unwilling participant (UP) as an affair.

Now, I would never condone an affair, but I generally agree with this statement. Like an affair, it brings insecurity issues for the UP and they are put in a situation they never were asked to participate in.

Having experienced both, I was distraught that my wife was happy to go without sex (not knowing she was getting it elsewhere) and the lack of intimacy was damaging.

After the affair, I felt only slightly worse, but now knew how f'd up she really was able to work through it on my own.

Again, a sexless marriage shouldn't lead to an A, but should rightly lead to S/D.

Thoughts?


Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your mind


Posts: 234 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: NB Canada
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HT - wow. Great post.

What I take issue with is the idea, implication or slightest hint that my drinking in some way excuses, explains, rationalizes or even makes understandable her decision to let my "buddy" stick his cock into her.

Just IMO but I think that allot of our WW used our faults AS excuses. I worked too much (or provided for my family too well) and OM was there with her all the time. HE didnt work too much (he didnt provide well for his family either) and so my fault became obvious.

Before long I was abusive in her mind. If I had to work late I was abandoning her. If I initiated sex I was raping her. If I suggested a vacation or even a night out for us I was being controlling of her. It came to a point where literally I could do no right. and OM could do no wrong.

My WW chose to have a affair. She wanted to be with OM. The why of all that is her issue. MY truth is simply that she wanted to and she could get away with it. so she did. And all those faults she saw in me were simply self persuading that gave her permission to do what she wanted to do.

She robbed me of my Agency. My ability to chose and direct for myself the course and trajectory of my own life.

By deliberately concealing from me vital and pertinent information that would have had a direct and enormous impact on the choices I would have otherwise made had I been in possession that information? By doing that my FWW reduced me to something less than a free autonomous adult human being. She made it impossible for me to truly be the master of my own fate.

YES.

And that is EXACTLY why I feel not telling a BS that he is indeed a BS to be one of the most insidious. evil. disrespectful. and horrible things one person can ever to to another. And that is why I have to choke down my internal rage when I hear a WS claim they are not telling because they want to protect their BS. That level of slavery via manipulation is the exact antithesis of love. because if you love someone you dont lie and manipulate them. Instead you respect them and so allow them to determine their own path in life.

Again. HT. Great post.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Again, a sexless marriage shouldn't lead to an A, but should rightly lead to S/D.

I have always thought of sex as a sort of glue that holds the relationship together. Granted there are other factors but without it you might as well be friends. So if one or both people are not willing to work on that than yes, I would agree with that statement.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

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