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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 21
Nitrobob
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Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, July 16th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred, when I looked through WW cell phone I found a message to her BFF.." I saw $$$$ yesterday. It was the best sex of my life."

She tries to down play it now, the novelty, her mania, the fog, whatever. It probably was the best.

Yes, it smarts. Ultimately I decided that women might have better sex partners even before they meet us, that it doesn't have to be " bestest" to work because there are a lot of other factors. I remember a girl who I swear had no gag reflex, and no one I've been with since could compete with that bit of sexual athleticism, but it really is only an asterisk in the story of my life. I don't pine away for it. I hope WW doesn't pine away for what I might not be able to do for her, but I don't know.

[This message edited by Nitrobob at 8:43 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)]


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 134 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, July 16th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Like allot of affairs (I think) the LTA eventually became more trouble than it was worth. she tried to end it but kept getting sucked back in

Yeah, I got an "I tried so many times to end it, but he kept drawing me back in" from my WW too. I do know she tried to end it at least once. The oldest email I found between her and Thing 1 was about five months prior to dday and she was ending it. I could tell she meant it too because it was a whole three days before he "sucked her back in" by her sending him a "can we still be friends" email. Within a week this Svengali had his dick back inside her. Wow did she put up a fight with all the "I miss you, I miss us" emails before that happened. It's so clear she was helplessly under his spell.


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 281 | Registered: Dec 2012
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 12:41 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One of the great injustices of infidelity is that there will be (if you're lucky: only) a few of these:

I saw $$$$ yesterday. It was the best sex of my life.

...and chances are, your wife will not remember them. They were momentary truths shared when no one was looking, subsequently lost in the drama of D-Day, the self-loathing, the remorse, the blah, blah, blah of "that doesn't define me".

I don't know that we, the betrayed, ever get over those. We bury them, but they're a restless dead.

Your wife forgets, finds a way to stop connecting with that stranger that was herself, makes that once-was person an inauthentic representation of herself. The whole affair becomes a chiaroscuro palette of fuzzy vignettes and snapshots disconnected from her present reality.

You inherit the reality she leaves behind. Her liberation becomes your chains. She achieves a new cognitive dissonance where the once-was-her has no relationship to the now and she rejoices in her transformation, while those forgotten, stolen moments are burned into your memory. You become the one who inherits her work of trying to see beyond the shame, horror, and casual cruelty to a world where life can go on and relationships can continue.

That is the work of reconciliation if you're the betrayed: how can I ever look at you again without seeing cock-in-mouth, eyes full of derision, giggling with girlfriends over dicks and lies and the delicious degradation of having one's cake and eating it too.

The grace we give ourselves is always the cheapest...but there's inevitably a reckoning. The bill for grace is always left for someone to pay in full.

The double indemnity of reconciliation is that you are made to pay for your real and imagined failures that pre-dated the affair, and then made to pay for the forgotten sins you uncover because you cannot forget. Because forgetting isn't grace. Forgetting isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness is remembering and releasing from penalty. Forgiveness is mercy.

And then you'll have these moments of incredible irony where your WS holds a grudge against a co-worker or a friend for some minor slight in the grand scheme of things. Some moment where your wife says, "How could they say/do/think that behind my back? When I've been so good to them! I'm not going to forget that."

You learn to laugh at the agony of it all, understanding that grace is always, inevitably, treated as a cheap trinket when you're on the receiving end of it.

You're have to learn to honor your own sacrifices to survive this, because no one else (outside of the Menz thread, maybe) is going to understand the horrific price you will pay and how easily it will be dismissed once a couple of summers have passed.

And then you have to learn how to do it without resenting the dismissal of your sacrifices as something mundane: something any decent spouse should do. Your sacrifice becomes just another twisted test of love for the abandonment mindset. Your wife can write a thousand psalms about the shape and size and fulfillment of the other man's cock, but the moment you let a single couplet of that liturgy escape your lips, the quality of your faith will become suspect.

No one ever promised this shit was easy.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well...fuck.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2164 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Double post.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 12:46 AM, July 17th, 2014 (Thursday)]


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2164 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
slater13
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Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 1:21 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

damn WAL. I haven't read here in a while and I return to that. I almost wept. You fing nailed it. I need to read that again a few more times.

I have tried to move on. Finding it harder and harder. WW has all but forgotten. But as you said I bear the burden of the memory now.

I fear I am slipping into depression. I think part of me is rebelling from this fucked up R. I have no desire to do any of the things I used to enjoy. I used to be so active- now I give zero fucks.


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 161 | Registered: Apr 2013
mike7
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Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 1:46 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nice post WAL.

i'm not there yet. any satisfaction she finds I'm still tempted to say something that spoils the mood and then I feel like a dick. apparently i'm not very fucking stoic when it comes to being betrayed. fortunately, I'm not around.

i have to ask you, if you're still paying attention, have your read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? if so, what do you think?

[This message edited by mike7 at 1:47 AM, July 17th (Thursday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
Montreal
♂ Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jesus WAL...

One of the great (?) things about this forum, this site really, is how topical it really is. I JUST had this conversation with my wife last night, where I told her about how it had hurt me so much to hear her talking about how lousy in bed I was, and how OM1 was "the best lay of her life". Textually giggling, as you put it, with her girlfriend over dicks and lies and delicious degradation (S&M for fuck's sake!). And she came back with the "but that's not me anymore, that's not who I want to be." So yeah, she's all swell and good and honorable now, and can't understand why I'm still hurt over those things that were said "at that time".

I swear you must have been sitting in my kitchen.

But then I remember just how fucking scripted this whole thing is. Just how alike all our experiences really are. I suppose that's a good thing, because without it support would be a lot harder to get.


DDay: July 6, 2013
Trying.

Posts: 91 | Registered: Sep 2013
99lawdog99
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Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow guys, these really hit home. I kind of thought I was sort of alone in all of this. I have been having a really hard time lately dealing with how my wife acted and what she said. It's been about 8 months since DDay and it seems worst than before. Before the A, my WW never was interested in sex that much. It was like that for a while and she always claimed it was just her. Then when she started with this giuy, she was like a crazied rabbit who couldn't get enough. Going down his house 2-3 times a week just for sex. never did anything else with him. When I found out, and she finally admitted it, she got smart and said that while she knows he's younger than me he lasted a lot longer. When I asked what she meant by that, she said he goes for over a half hour constantly banging her. And I mean, she said going at it full speed, as hard as he could for that time. When I asked what she did while he was doing that, she said she just lays there and has multiple orgasms. Now she tells me that none of that was true and if she came 2 or 3 times during the entire A, she was lucky. She now claims he was very selfish and didn't care about her. When I asked why she would say what she did, she tells me that she was sick of me asking her about the details of what they did together and just wanted to shut me up. Well she did. To this day she insist that it was not true, but how do you get that out of your mind. She keeps telling me it was nothing special, that it was just different because she was never with anyone else but me. Even when I question her as to why she always felt that she had to go running to him whenever he called her to have sex and never refused, she says she was F'd up and doesn't know. She calims the excitement and newness was what she was after. A while after Dday we were having sex constantly but now it seems as if we are back to where I was before the A, she claims she can't be in the mood all the time and it is unfair for me to pressure her. I of course keep telling her why wasn't she never in the mood with him and why can't I have what he was getting which only blows up the situation into a fight. So I cannot win.

The bottom line is it helps to know that I am not alone. If anyone of you guys can tell me how to just move on and not be thinkinging i'm second choice I would appreciate it. She is doing everything right and constantly trying to reassure me that she was F'd up and that I am the only one she truly loves but I'm to the point that one day I love her like I always did and the next I hate her and wish she was gone. Thanks for letting me vent. And WAL, great POST

[This message edited by 99lawdog99 at 8:59 AM, July 17th (Thursday)]


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 136 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Two things regarding wal's post.
1. The word "chiaroscuro". Now there's a five dollar word this five cent head's never heard. Had to look it up to get the full effect of that analogy.

2. To paraphrase Slim Pickens in "Blazing Saddles": "Goldarnit Mr. wal, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore."

I'm giving serious thought to sending that post to my WW.


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 281 | Registered: Dec 2012
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Slater:

WW has all but forgotten.

You really think so? I picture them walking around with an invisible scarlet A. No first hand experience, but would think that this is the type of thing that can really eat away at a person.

When I asked what she meant by that, she said he goes for over a half hour constantly banging her.

BTDT lawdog. I performed like that once in my life, before I met WW. The lady I was seeing at the time was older, divorced. She was fairly attractive physically, but there wasn't much of an emotional connection and we didn't have a lot in common.

Sounds to me like he was only marginally attracted to her (at best). Maybe even a little bored. If it was a woman who really turned him on, I guarantee you he wouldn't last anywhere near that long.


[This message edited by Sal1995 at 9:57 AM, July 17th (Thursday)]


Me (BS)-45, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1451 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
99lawdog99
♂ Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SAL

That's what she keeps saying. I told her that no way can anyone short of a porn star or someone on drugs can go full tilt at it like that for over a half an hour. I'd be exhausted. She says that should prove she was making it up because he smokes and was always out of breathe. It still stings.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 136 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
doubleboggy
♂ Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I picture them walking around with an invisible scarlet A. No first hand experience, but would think that this is the type of thing that can really eat away at a person.


Sal,

I adopted 4 foster kids years ago. When the judge took away their parental rights, the parents didn't even bother to show up to court and fight for their kids. That upset me greatly. I couldn't imagine not fighting as hard as I can, with everything I can, to not let my kids be taken away. But that's the point. I would have never let the situation get that far. I would have worked my ass off to get them back before getting to the point parental rights would be in jeopardy. Hell, I wouldn't have abused and neglected them in the first place.

This is where you are getting confused. Because you are honorable, you can't imagine that a wayward wouldn't be walking around with an invisible scarlet A. You would... but you're honorable. You wouldn't ever let the situation get that far. Because you're honorable you would have worked your ass off to keep the marriage from being in jeopardy. Hell, because you are honorable, you wouldn't had the affair in the first place.

They (most WW), don't wear a invisible scarlet A because they don't think like we do. If they did, I would be posting on a MLB website totally ignorant to the effects of infidelity.


D Day: 3/31/13

Posts: 107 | Registered: Sep 2013
Nitrobob
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Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, you the man.

And yes, I got the "it wasn't really me", which was at least a bit more credible since she had to start bipolar meds that had a small but real possibility of death by your skin peeling off (called Stevens-Johnson Syndrome).

So I always feel bad when I go through the usual BS stuff. I'm always thinking, she can't know how this feels, but logically, I can't know how hypomania feels either. She is too smart to stand on it as an excuse. She says, "I know I have to take responsibility for my actions", but she does go there when I want explanations. And maybe that's all she can do.

I do think the great sex they have is a combustable mixture of new and secret. But also, WW pointed out that women have sexual experiences when they are young with young men, who know little and finish quickly. Then they get married. The AP may have quite a repetoir and different timimg,as well as different chemistry that can get to "the best ever". We, as well, might be able to give the same rush to AP's wife. You get the point. It's definitely not a level playing field.

Bob

[This message edited by Nitrobob at 11:02 AM, July 17th (Thursday)]


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 134 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL great post. exactly my experience.

Lawdog:

When I asked why she would say what she did, she tells me that she was sick of me asking her about the details of what they did together and just wanted to shut me up.

WW did this to me allot. I would ask a question - one she probably didnt want to answer - and she would give me the truth in the harshest possible terms.

Its punishment by truth.

Basically WW wanted me to STFU already. It worked because I did.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
HeartFullOfHoles
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Member # 42874
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, doubleboggy,

That's some seriously insightful writing. Thank you!

WTH,

Don't feel bad I had to look up "chiaroscuro" as well.

Given that all the old ICR threads are no longer available I worry how much insight like this is now only contained in meme form by those that have been here long enough to be blessed with experiencing it first hand. It sure seems like we need a betrayed menz compendium.


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 176 | Registered: Mar 2014
99lawdog99
♂ Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hear you Razor. My WW says she lied and wanted to just shut me up. God forbid if I bring something up. It amazes me. She F's up and i'm the bad guy because I want to know things.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 136 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

look up chiarscuro?!? are you guys kidding me? i have one of those for lunch practically every day!


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
HeartFullOfHoles
♂ Member
Member # 42874
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Look it up again Mike. WAL didn't say chirizo .


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 176 | Registered: Mar 2014
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You really think so? I picture them walking around with an invisible scarlet A. No first hand experience, but would think that this is the type of thing that can really eat away at a person.

I think it can, but remorse is a big factor there, and that makes it harder to speak generally in an open forum. But, you know, that's also timeline dependent. There's a huge sense of change that comes from "I stopped lying and fucking other people" that masquerades as transformation sometimes.

Changing a habit doesn't mean the puddle got any deeper, because "affairs r bad" isn't really much of an insight, you know?

One of the great things about my wife is that she spent years earning her freedom from shame. She didn't just stop fucking other people; she didn't stop digging until she got her shit together. She transformed herself to become the person *she* knew she could be rather than to appease me or show me that she had changed, could be safe, etc.

And that matters.

The other things I talked about above were just milestones along the way...but it was important that she didn't give up the shame until she had convinced *herself* that the change was authentic.

(Remember, of course, that like Nitrobob's wife, my wife is bipolar, which means that hypomania was also part of her process. She's more likely to forget and disassociate from her affair activities than others...but for her, that wasn't ever an excuse. What it meant was that she was working blind -- unable to disentangle a process that she couldn't completely recall.)

If your wife is one of those who chooses to go through the meat grinder to recreate herself authentically -- to heal herself as well as the marriage -- then it's a different perspective, because you really are working together. You know that you're not the only one at war, and it's easier to support and validate each other's struggles, even though the theaters of conflict are different.

There's a ton I could say here about the concept of remorse that I just don't in this venue. Specifically, I'd talk about the religiously-laden word "repentance" -- a true, core-level turning away from who one was before, an abrogation of the old self. Compared to repentance, I tend to view remorse as just another guise for selfish...self-involvement, full of a bunch of "I deserve" statements ("I deserve a better me, a better life, a better marriage than I've allowed myself to have before. I deserve to be healthy. I'm worth it.")

But that's the difference between the cheap grace of forgetting and the engaged self-reconstruction that's essential to getting through this mess.

I won't get any closer to it than that out of respect for the site's guidelines.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
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