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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 21
HeartFullOfHoles
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Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the factors are way more complicated and subtle then we think they are and to be honest since we don't have a wayward perspective I'm not certain they would even make sense to us. STBXWW had an EA so what are the factors in that? Her bipolar mother, her likely BPD, living with a single father who was busy at school or work, her FOO issues of shame, abandonment, etc. All I know is I'm going to pay dearly for all this even though she is the one who had the affair and wants a divorce. I will certainly be better on the other side, but it's going to have a significant cost financially and more importantly on the emotional wellbeing of my daughters and myself.

I have also noticed that a lot of our WWs are in their 40s to 50s. Almost makes you think female version of MLC. They are starting to look older, kids are starting to leave, etc. and they need some validation. Add some of the typical wayward issues (e.g. selfishness, self-centered, etc.) and unless they can find better coping skills it seems like an affair is inevitable.


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2014
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h0peless - my stbx claimed only 4 notches in her belt. By the time of her 1st A, I already knew to add probably a zero after that 4. After the A I asked again just to see and she gave me the same number 4 as an answer, confirming my earlier suspicions. Like yours, my stbx is an accomplished liar, both outright and by ommission.

HFH - My ex was in her 20's and my stbx late 20's when they cheated. Not sure if age or MLC has much to do with selfish, self centered behavior.

[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 6:52 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 6:59 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and they need some validation

That's all you had to say mate.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4028 | Registered: Dec 2011
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 7:17 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred / HFH -

You both hit on the fact that they "just needed validation". As BH's where do any of our feelings become validated?

I am an introspective person, and fully capable of my own validation. However, it would be nice if my STBX were capable of caring about anyone / anything but herself.

Now pass the cheese, I'm done with my whine....

[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 7:26 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
HeartFullOfHoles
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Member # 42874
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are probably right Tred. They couldn't validate themselves so that found it outside the marriage when we didn't meet their (unrealistic) expectations.

HL, my feelings/pain were often actively invalidated and dismissed. For me these suppressed feeling/pain led to anger. STBXWW refuses to see her part in that cycle and said I was trying to shift the blame when I explain this to her. What's comical about that is I have owned my part for years while she is the one who always has to blame someone else for her problems (shame issue).

Would you like some apple to go with the cheese?


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2014
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HFH -

Sounds familiar, I have always manned up to my issues, admitted mistakes, and attempted to correct noted deficiencies. STBX has never owned up to ANYTHING. Point something out and she'll redirect everything to "Because YOU H&L did this or that". Shit gets old. But when SHE needs validation for HER feelings, by God you'd better step up or there's hell to pay. Good riddance!

Apples would go great with the cheese!


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
nuance
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Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nuance - don't ever relax mate. I went 14 years between DDays.

True. At least now we know the red flags. But to be honest she seems to be more worried that I cheat on her than anything else.

One of these days she asked me if I ever wanted to f*ck other women. She was my first and only. I told her that I fucked all the women I wanted to fuck. She can't believe me. She told me once she thought she didn't made the most of her single years. We got married early in our early 20s.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1221 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
foundoutlater
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Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some great stuff going on in the Menz thread – even a WAL sighting (too bad I missed it). I found when I was reading all the talk about “does young promiscuity lead to affairs” and “OP’s schlong was a monster” and “hey it’s not your schlong but her mound that’s wore out you need to be concerned with” all I could think of was “it’s the compatibility of what’s between the ears, not the legs”. IDK maybe I have thrashed around in all of it too long, and I know I’m in the "keep it simple stupid" mode lately. I really like sex (understatement), but for me it was part of a good one-on-one relationship. I did not want to sow my oats, not that a ton of opportunity showed itself but there were some that I did not pursue. My W made it seem like she felt the same way but there was enough for me to see otherwise IF I was wiser. No need to beat up an 18 year old me for not being the wiser and I’m ok with that now. So my W and I were not compatible in this regard at that age but I think she has changed so that’s ok. (Edit to add – it’s ok that we are compatible in this regard now – it’s not ok she did not have the fortitude to be honest about who she was before.)

Another thought - I posted a response in another thread on mind movies about how I tried to just let the movies play out until the exposure did not hurt so much. After a while I decided that exposure was causing too much trauma and found a different way to deal with the mind movies. I’ve never felt comfortable with the PTSD diagnosis but it does help me understand some of the physical (chemical) responses I now have to certain stimulus or thoughts and it has helped me control the response.

Later in another post I think I read something WAL said about him having to expose to this shit until he was desensitized to the pain and that got me thinking. I thought I was kind of nuts when I was doing the full exposure – maybe I am but it’s nice to know I’m not alone. Or maybe that is just what I needed to do to get through it. I’m not sure if a manual could ever be written on how to heal from this crap but I’d like to think someone smarter than me has figured out how to deal with the mind movies without the trauma exposure. IDK kind of rambling so that is all for now.

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 11:23 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1135 | Registered: Jul 2011
99lawdog99
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Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just got caught up on this and have to say, I think marrying a virgin will only lead to trouble. I met my wife when she was 17 and I was her only one til last year when she met some POS former drug user who lived with his mommy in a rented piece of shit. After 4 months of her basically delivering herself to him on a weekly basis, I caught her, told her to get out and she decided she wanted to stay with me. The bottom line is when I asked her why she did it, her answer for the longest time was that she didn't know , she just liked the attention he was givin g her. She finally said that she always wondered what it was like to be with someone else and it just happened. She was selfish. The funny part is when I tell her, I hope it was worth it, she looks at me like I have two heads and says shit no, it was the same, just different. Yea right.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 144 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
7yrsflushed
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Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But to be honest she seems to be more worried that I cheat on her than anything else
Can't speak for anyone else but for me when my XWW was saying shit like that it was her basically screaming she still doesn't get it. It meant she wasn't digging into her reasons for doing this stupid shit in the first place. It also meant she was still hella selfish. She was more worried about me having an A and trying to hurt or get back at her than the damage she did to me and our family.

My gut was right she was seeing someone else but I never bothered to check because by then it didn't matter. I had made the decision to file. I am speaking just about my situation and your WW's A may be over. However if your WW is still accusing you of cheating or thinking you will cheat then imo her head is still screwed on backwards.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:26 AM, July 24th (Thursday)]


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Divorced 9/2/14 and loving life!

Posts: 1914 | Registered: May 2011 | From: VA
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7Years -

My STBX is apparently on the fence on D. Funny cause after involvement with current OM she's the one that brought up D and was suhocked at how fast a pissed off BH can fill out paperwork.

Talked to her yesterday just to explain a couple of details and OM came up. She is stuck on the fact that she is doing nothing wrong "hanging out" at this guys house (and spending the night), talking / texting and deleting records, I'm paranoid, I am being controlling asking her to at least keep her legs closed until final separation agreement filed, etc. But in other breath wonders "if she's doing the right thing, she doesnt know if she wants the divorce". Some special kind of selfish.

[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 11:28 AM, July 24th (Thursday)]


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
GotPlayed
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Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HurtingandLost

Gently, your WW is fencing you and keeping you as plan B. Being paranoid only fills her life with "excitement" and helps her play victim to her L, OM and her "team".

180 her man, don't ask her for anything. Note the behavior but don't ask anything. See a L if you can (use a separate account for the retainer). Don't let her try to sway the judge. If you said your piece, didn't become paranoid or difficult, but she continued the behavior, then it's all on her.

She's horribly selfish. Mine is the same way, she just keeps saying "I cared for him" (uses past tense but I think she still sees him - who knows? I'm NC!) and "I can't fix it". Of course she does that on texts ("I cared for him" on an NC break a couple months ago - my fault and "I can't fix it" got crickets). She can't even talk to me she's so ashamed. Sure I'm NC, but she could have asked to have lunch or something (kind of glad, I would have agonized over it and maybe said yes). OM got "closure" at a hotel room (which of course wasn't closure at all). So that tells me her priorities.

I'm nobody's plan B. She can go to OM if she wants. I'll continue working, raising my kids and saving for my future alone. And then I'll be someone's Plan A.

Oddly enough your W and mine are probably from the same outer planet. She also "filed first" (like it was a race or something), then was shocked that I actually continued the process, led the discussion on child schedules during mediation, organized all the bill splitting/sent her a statement, had the $ she owed me for shared medical expenses (she has never paid a dime) to the penny and still do, had back-of-the-envelope support calculations ready, etc.

I guess she just filed hoping I'd crawl to ask to come back. "In the real world, outside your A where you lie and where black is white and white is black, people take you seriously when you say something, honey!"

Which BTW I talked to L. We will be preparing a final settlement offer now that we're waiting for escrow close on selling the marital home. I'd love to just get this done and over with.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 755 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
MadeOfScars
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Member # 42231
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HurtingandLost,

Reading what you've posted here, I gotta agree with GotPlayed. It's 180 time and take care of HurtingandLost time. The fence is far more uncomfortable for you than for her. Knock her off, but be prepared mentally (as best as any hurting man can) that either side she lands on, it's going to be a process.

Oddly enough your W and mine are probably from the same outer planet.

I think my ex may be from a different part of that planet. Maybe not. You familiar with the Selfishville area smack-dab in the middle of The Foglands? You take the "ItsAllAboutWhatINeed" expressway past Shameless park and it's on the wrong side of the tracks. I think I've pinpointed her origin to that area.

So, she asked for the D, but I filed in my case. From that point, she did basically nothing. I guess I shouldn't complain since it was completely uncontested, but it would have been nice if I didn't have to go to court twice to finalize the D because she couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge the petition (which in my county you can do online in 5 minutes - she knew this too; she's the one who told me and then still didn't do it). Then she kept asking me questions on what to do about this, how to do that, from setting up her own benefits to goddamn everything else she needed to do to start her new life without me. I actually got attitude a few times when I basically (and politely) refused to answer her questions or "took to long" to respond. "YOU did this. You figure it out. I owe you nothing!" /rant

Selfish comes in many ugly forms.



“The wound is the place where the Light enters you.” ― Rumi

Posts: 1280 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Texas
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In the end I dont think the factors that led our WWs to cheat shouldnt really matter to us. As HFOH said those factors wouldnt make sense to us anyway.

For me. My WWs issues and whatever that let cheating be a possible decision she could make are HER issues. not mine. As far as Im concerned she had the opportunity and OM was attractive and she thought she could get away with it. So she did.

In the end all those elaborate and fancy reasons dont matter because NO ONE IS AFFAIR PROOF. Fidelity is something we all have to guard and work at.

I admit that under the right circumstances I could have a affair. Those conditions and circumstances exist. I know they are there. And so I watch myself and am careful around women.

Maybe thinking you are affair proof and would never do *that* creates a circumstance where you drop your guard. And that can land you into affairville.

In the end though I dont give a shit what WWs *reasons* for her affair were. I dont really care if she still thinks it was the M or me or the alignment of the planets. All that is HER crap. not mine.

If she cheats again or even violates boundaries such that I think she might have cheated again but cant prove it. Then I am GONE. No more chances.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
7yrsflushed
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Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In the end I dont think the factors that led our WWs to cheat shouldnt really matter to us.
I sort of agree with this. IMO, it does matter if you are planning to R, if you are getting a D maybe not so much. I have 2 small kids and knowing why my XWW is the way she is allows me to parent in such a way that when I see them mirroring habits from Mommy I can insert some Dad in their to counterbalance taht shit. I dont need to fix my XWW, that's her problem but I did need to know her fucked up ways to counteract that shit for my kids. For instance my XWW fears death and has never been able to handle it. Her Mother died at a young age and it fucked her up. I on the other hand know everyone will die. Yes I will be sad but I won't go catatonic every time a loved one dies because the world keeps going and shit has to get done. I want my kids to understand that it's okay to mourn the loss of a loved one but you must continue to live your life especially since that lost loved one would want you to live a long and happy life.

I agree you can't A proof a M. But your WS can figure out why they have piss poor coping skills and why allowing yourself to have an A is one of them. If they can't then they are a dry adulterer. The reason I wanted my XWW to figure it out was the pattern of bad choices was there right in front of her in bad decision after another. If I was going to stay in the M then SHE needed to be able to see that pattern and figure it out herself. She couldn't so I had to go.

This is no different then me taking the time after I had detached to figure out exactly why I seemed to ALWAYS end up with women that cheated on me. I needed to figure that shit out for myself or be doomed to repeat the cycle over and over. Figuring me out doesn't mean I won't end up with a cheater down the line. It does mean that I now recognize red flags and don't ignore them. I no longer skew towards the codependant side of things and my KISA or more bluntly put "captain Save-A-HO" tendencies are gone. It also means that if I do see suspect behavior I will confront and crush that shit immediately instead of being conflict avoidant as I was in the past. Just like my XWW all my fuckupedness was right there in front of me the entire time. I just never knew to look at it and figure it out until Dday forced me to evalutate myself again.

I don't want to walk into future relationships with my shields always up. I have to trust that what I learned about myself will carry me through and I know I am strong enough to walk away if the situation is bad. Would have been nice if XWW could have done that type of work on herself but again no longer my issue to worry about.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Divorced 9/2/14 and loving life!

Posts: 1914 | Registered: May 2011 | From: VA
7yrsflushed
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Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She is stuck on the fact that she is doing nothing wrong "hanging out" at this guys house (and spending the night), talking / texting and deleting records, I'm paranoid, I am being controlling asking her to at least keep her legs closed until final separation agreement filed, etc. But in other breath wonders "if she's doing the right thing, she doesnt know if she wants the divorce".
HandL, that is just unremoresful right there. There is no confusion just unremorseful cake eating behavior. As the others stated do a hard 180 and kick the fence from under your WW by removing yourself from the equation. Focus completely on you and what you need to be okay. What she wants is kind of irrelevant. What do you want is the question you need to answer? When they are unremorseful the only way to get an answer is by taking her ability to choose away. You walk away because you won't allow 3 people in your M. She either gets her shit together or she won't but all of the waffling is a clear indicator that she is unremorseful.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Divorced 9/2/14 and loving life!

Posts: 1914 | Registered: May 2011 | From: VA
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

your WS can figure out why they have piss poor coping skills and why allowing yourself to have an A is one of them. If they can't then they are a dry adulterer.

But I think they are all dry-adulterers. Just like a alcoholic will always be a alcoholic and the best you can hope for is to be a dry-alcoholic.

People have to guard their Fidelity IMO. Its something you have to watch about yourself and actively protect. If a WS has their WHYS in hand then they know their weak points and perhaps can guard better.

I seemed to ALWAYS end up with women that cheated on me.

For me it was a low value of myself. FOO issues had to do with that. And just like fidelity I have to guard myself to prevent a tendency of falling back into the *Im not good enough* mind set.

I don't want to walk into future relationships with my shields always up.

Maybe not shields up. but instead EYES OPEN. IMO its stupid to put complete trust in anyone. In the end their needs will be more important than your needs and your going to end up disappointed.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrs -

I dont need to fix my XWW, that's her problem but I did need to know her fucked up ways to counteract that shit for my kids

Amen Brother. Biggest part of the struggle for me at the moment. Learning not to bail her out of her poor parenting skills when they act out for her, while distancing myself and providing that counterbalance is proving to be a challenge at times, but I am working on it.

Hard to go NC when we share a roof. Hopefully the offer I put in on 2nd home is accepted. She wants me to fix this and change that I told her its not my problem get her BF to fix it. I've more than covered my bases and it wasnt for her, but for the kids. Don't need them roaming from slum rental to slum rental with her.

NC should begin soon enough, should help immensely. Thanks fellas for the advice and support. Keeps what few marbles I have left rolling on center!


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I think they are all dry-adulterers. Just like a alcoholic will always be a alcoholic and the best you can hope for is to be a dry-alcoholic.
I don't know if I totally buy into this, Razor.

I've made the infidelity/addiction comparison myself, but I don't think it's the same thing for the 'user' who has recovered, on a long enough time-frame.

Meaning, I don't think the fWS who works on all their shit still has the same 'pull', the same mental tug to cheating behaviors as the person who is a recovered alcoholic does. I could be wrong, though.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2185 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, July 24th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I intended that analogy simply to mean that a person (WS or not) has to guard themself against temptation just as a reformed alcoholic does.

A alcoholic knows what their triggers are. and so should a WW. Knowing those triggers helps the person defend themself.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


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