I have also noticed that a lot of our WWs are in their 40s to 50s. Almost makes you think female version of MLC. They are starting to look older, kids are starting to leave, etc. and they need some validation. Add some of the typical wayward issues (e.g. selfishness, self-centered, etc.) and unless they can find better coping skills it seems like an affair is inevitable.
HFH - My ex was in her 20's and my stbx late 20's when they cheated. Not sure if age or MLC has much to do with selfish, self centered behavior.
[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 6:52 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]
and they need some validation
You both hit on the fact that they "just needed validation". As BH's where do any of our feelings become validated?
I am an introspective person, and fully capable of my own validation. However, it would be nice if my STBX were capable of caring about anyone / anything but herself.
Now pass the cheese, I'm done with my whine....
[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 7:26 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]
HL, my feelings/pain were often actively invalidated and dismissed. For me these suppressed feeling/pain led to anger. STBXWW refuses to see her part in that cycle and said I was trying to shift the blame when I explain this to her. What's comical about that is I have owned my part for years while she is the one who always has to blame someone else for her problems (shame issue).
Would you like some apple to go with the cheese?
Sounds familiar, I have always manned up to my issues, admitted mistakes, and attempted to correct noted deficiencies. STBX has never owned up to ANYTHING. Point something out and she'll redirect everything to "Because YOU H&L did this or that". Shit gets old. But when SHE needs validation for HER feelings, by God you'd better step up or there's hell to pay. Good riddance!
Apples would go great with the cheese!
Nuance - don't ever relax mate. I went 14 years between DDays.
True. At least now we know the red flags. But to be honest she seems to be more worried that I cheat on her than anything else.
One of these days she asked me if I ever wanted to f*ck other women. She was my first and only. I told her that I fucked all the women I wanted to fuck. She can't believe me. She told me once she thought she didn't made the most of her single years. We got married early in our early 20s.
Another thought - I posted a response in another thread on mind movies about how I tried to just let the movies play out until the exposure did not hurt so much. After a while I decided that exposure was causing too much trauma and found a different way to deal with the mind movies. I’ve never felt comfortable with the PTSD diagnosis but it does help me understand some of the physical (chemical) responses I now have to certain stimulus or thoughts and it has helped me control the response.
Later in another post I think I read something WAL said about him having to expose to this shit until he was desensitized to the pain and that got me thinking. I thought I was kind of nuts when I was doing the full exposure – maybe I am but it’s nice to know I’m not alone. Or maybe that is just what I needed to do to get through it. I’m not sure if a manual could ever be written on how to heal from this crap but I’d like to think someone smarter than me has figured out how to deal with the mind movies without the trauma exposure. IDK kind of rambling so that is all for now.
[This message edited by foundoutlater at 11:23 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]
But to be honest she seems to be more worried that I cheat on her than anything else
My gut was right she was seeing someone else but I never bothered to check because by then it didn't matter. I had made the decision to file. I am speaking just about my situation and your WW's A may be over. However if your WW is still accusing you of cheating or thinking you will cheat then imo her head is still screwed on backwards.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:26 AM, July 24th (Thursday)]
My STBX is apparently on the fence on D. Funny cause after involvement with current OM she's the one that brought up D and was suhocked at how fast a pissed off BH can fill out paperwork.
Talked to her yesterday just to explain a couple of details and OM came up. She is stuck on the fact that she is doing nothing wrong "hanging out" at this guys house (and spending the night), talking / texting and deleting records, I'm paranoid, I am being controlling asking her to at least keep her legs closed until final separation agreement filed, etc. But in other breath wonders "if she's doing the right thing, she doesnt know if she wants the divorce". Some special kind of selfish.
[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 11:28 AM, July 24th (Thursday)]
Gently, your WW is fencing you and keeping you as plan B. Being paranoid only fills her life with "excitement" and helps her play victim to her L, OM and her "team".
180 her man, don't ask her for anything. Note the behavior but don't ask anything. See a L if you can (use a separate account for the retainer). Don't let her try to sway the judge. If you said your piece, didn't become paranoid or difficult, but she continued the behavior, then it's all on her.
She's horribly selfish. Mine is the same way, she just keeps saying "I cared for him" (uses past tense but I think she still sees him - who knows? I'm NC!) and "I can't fix it". Of course she does that on texts ("I cared for him" on an NC break a couple months ago - my fault and "I can't fix it" got crickets). She can't even talk to me she's so ashamed. Sure I'm NC, but she could have asked to have lunch or something (kind of glad, I would have agonized over it and maybe said yes). OM got "closure" at a hotel room (which of course wasn't closure at all). So that tells me her priorities.
I'm nobody's plan B. She can go to OM if she wants. I'll continue working, raising my kids and saving for my future alone. And then I'll be someone's Plan A.
Oddly enough your W and mine are probably from the same outer planet. She also "filed first" (like it was a race or something), then was shocked that I actually continued the process, led the discussion on child schedules during mediation, organized all the bill splitting/sent her a statement, had the $ she owed me for shared medical expenses (she has never paid a dime) to the penny and still do, had back-of-the-envelope support calculations ready, etc.
I guess she just filed hoping I'd crawl to ask to come back. "In the real world, outside your A where you lie and where black is white and white is black, people take you seriously when you say something, honey!"
Which BTW I talked to L. We will be preparing a final settlement offer now that we're waiting for escrow close on selling the marital home. I'd love to just get this done and over with.
Reading what you've posted here, I gotta agree with GotPlayed. It's 180 time and take care of HurtingandLost time. The fence is far more uncomfortable for you than for her. Knock her off, but be prepared mentally (as best as any hurting man can) that either side she lands on, it's going to be a process.
Oddly enough your W and mine are probably from the same outer planet.
I think my ex may be from a different part of that planet. Maybe not. You familiar with the Selfishville area smack-dab in the middle of The Foglands? You take the "ItsAllAboutWhatINeed" expressway past Shameless park and it's on the wrong side of the tracks. I think I've pinpointed her origin to that area.
So, she asked for the D, but I filed in my case. From that point, she did basically nothing. I guess I shouldn't complain since it was completely uncontested, but it would have been nice if I didn't have to go to court twice to finalize the D because she couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge the petition (which in my county you can do online in 5 minutes - she knew this too; she's the one who told me and then still didn't do it). Then she kept asking me questions on what to do about this, how to do that, from setting up her own benefits to goddamn everything else she needed to do to start her new life without me. I actually got attitude a few times when I basically (and politely) refused to answer her questions or "took to long" to respond. "YOU did this. You figure it out. I owe you nothing!" /rant
Selfish comes in many ugly forms.
For me. My WWs issues and whatever that let cheating be a possible decision she could make are HER issues. not mine. As far as Im concerned she had the opportunity and OM was attractive and she thought she could get away with it. So she did.
In the end all those elaborate and fancy reasons dont matter because NO ONE IS AFFAIR PROOF. Fidelity is something we all have to guard and work at.
I admit that under the right circumstances I could have a affair. Those conditions and circumstances exist. I know they are there. And so I watch myself and am careful around women.
Maybe thinking you are affair proof and would never do *that* creates a circumstance where you drop your guard. And that can land you into affairville.
In the end though I dont give a shit what WWs *reasons* for her affair were. I dont really care if she still thinks it was the M or me or the alignment of the planets. All that is HER crap. not mine.
If she cheats again or even violates boundaries such that I think she might have cheated again but cant prove it. Then I am GONE. No more chances.
Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
In the end I dont think the factors that led our WWs to cheat shouldnt really matter to us.
I agree you can't A proof a M. But your WS can figure out why they have piss poor coping skills and why allowing yourself to have an A is one of them. If they can't then they are a dry adulterer. The reason I wanted my XWW to figure it out was the pattern of bad choices was there right in front of her in bad decision after another. If I was going to stay in the M then SHE needed to be able to see that pattern and figure it out herself. She couldn't so I had to go.
This is no different then me taking the time after I had detached to figure out exactly why I seemed to ALWAYS end up with women that cheated on me. I needed to figure that shit out for myself or be doomed to repeat the cycle over and over. Figuring me out doesn't mean I won't end up with a cheater down the line. It does mean that I now recognize red flags and don't ignore them. I no longer skew towards the codependant side of things and my KISA or more bluntly put "captain Save-A-HO" tendencies are gone. It also means that if I do see suspect behavior I will confront and crush that shit immediately instead of being conflict avoidant as I was in the past. Just like my XWW all my fuckupedness was right there in front of me the entire time. I just never knew to look at it and figure it out until Dday forced me to evalutate myself again.
I don't want to walk into future relationships with my shields always up. I have to trust that what I learned about myself will carry me through and I know I am strong enough to walk away if the situation is bad. Would have been nice if XWW could have done that type of work on herself but again no longer my issue to worry about.
She is stuck on the fact that she is doing nothing wrong "hanging out" at this guys house (and spending the night), talking / texting and deleting records, I'm paranoid, I am being controlling asking her to at least keep her legs closed until final separation agreement filed, etc. But in other breath wonders "if she's doing the right thing, she doesnt know if she wants the divorce".
your WS can figure out why they have piss poor coping skills and why allowing yourself to have an A is one of them. If they can't then they are a dry adulterer.
People have to guard their Fidelity IMO. Its something you have to watch about yourself and actively protect. If a WS has their WHYS in hand then they know their weak points and perhaps can guard better.
I seemed to ALWAYS end up with women that cheated on me.
I don't want to walk into future relationships with my shields always up.
I dont need to fix my XWW, that's her problem but I did need to know her fucked up ways to counteract that shit for my kids
Amen Brother. Biggest part of the struggle for me at the moment. Learning not to bail her out of her poor parenting skills when they act out for her, while distancing myself and providing that counterbalance is proving to be a challenge at times, but I am working on it.
Hard to go NC when we share a roof. Hopefully the offer I put in on 2nd home is accepted. She wants me to fix this and change that I told her its not my problem get her BF to fix it. I've more than covered my bases and it wasnt for her, but for the kids. Don't need them roaming from slum rental to slum rental with her.
NC should begin soon enough, should help immensely. Thanks fellas for the advice and support. Keeps what few marbles I have left rolling on center!
But I think they are all dry-adulterers. Just like a alcoholic will always be a alcoholic and the best you can hope for is to be a dry-alcoholic.
I've made the infidelity/addiction comparison myself, but I don't think it's the same thing for the 'user' who has recovered, on a long enough time-frame.
Meaning, I don't think the fWS who works on all their shit still has the same 'pull', the same mental tug to cheating behaviors as the person who is a recovered alcoholic does. I could be wrong, though.
A alcoholic knows what their triggers are. and so should a WW. Knowing those triggers helps the person defend themself.