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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 9
sarahstar
♀ Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question: As a WS, did you think of your spouse when you betrayed? My husband keeps saying he just didn't think. But are you just in a fantasy and can't think rationally or are you aware of what you are about to do? I am trying to get a grips of WH thinking as we are in reconciliation and he almost betrayed again but stopped himself and came home. I just can't fathom doing the wrong thing by my husband and cant understand how he can so easily do it to me when he supposedly loves me so much.

Posts: 113 | Registered: Jun 2014
RawDeal75
♂ Member
Member # 42495
Concerned  Posted: 6:37 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks familyfirst and NoGoodUsername!
May I follow up with a spin on my own question to you, somethingremorse, ThatGuyNoMore and all other WS out there (especially WW):

Even though you are remorseful for your actions and see no joy or good feelings in the memories of your sexual and emotional encounters, can you still know, feel and understand that AT THE TIME of the A they were joyous occasions, that they were happy, exciting back then?

My WW does not admit to this at all, and almost want me to think that she felt dirty, hollow, bad and disgusting also at the time when she had sex with the OM. I cannot accept or understand this. I can fully understand that she now see her actions as disgraceful, repulsing etc., but back then she must have felt the butterflies and the joy, must she not???


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
♂ Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(question to moderators: how can I get access to older threads - BS Questions for WS's - Parts 1-8? I guess there may be good info/answers there too...)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RawDeal --

I think it is possible that your WS felt bad during her A. Even during sex. I think that varies for each specific person.

For me, I know I felt awful right after, every time. This may be TMI, but when I would meet my APs, I thought they were really attractive. Like immediately after sex, I focused on every imperfection and blemish. Really, I was so disgusted with myself that I projected.

FWIW, I don't think I have ever done that with BW. After 25 years together.

I know that when I started each encounter with the AP, I was excited. But for me, there was always a bit of a "push." Like when you are standing on the diving board, and have to tell yourself "come on, jump in." I think there was a point in almost every physical encounter where I had to convince myself this is what I want to do. I don't know if it was me feeling disgust before, as much as it was just knowing that the encounter was going to make me feel worse when I was done. There was always a threshold that I needed to cross. I admit that it got easier to cross the more that I did it. But is was definitely there for me.

For me, once I decided to jump of the diving board, I would block out all of those doubts and regrets. So I usually enjoyed myself during the act itself (and during sexting, whatever). But it was bookended closely by a lot of bad thoughts.

Your WW may be different. People have sex for different emotional reasons. I think it is entirely possible that someone could feel dirty and used during the encounter. It is possible that is the reason for the A.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 650 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
♀ Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RawDeal75
AT THE TIME of the A they were joyous occasions, that they were happy, exciting back then

At the time of the EA, it was making me feel good. Happy maybe, but joy?...not so much. Joy is an emotion I associate with my children's face when they see their stockings on Christmas morning. The good feeling of the EA was more like the kind when you win a hand in blackjack.

My PA was exciting but in a bunji jumping sort of way. Thrilling and nerve wracking is a better way to describe it. But that was just me and I knew my AP for over 20 years and trusted him. Even then I can think of some times with AP where he was overly selfish. Dirty is the exact word I would use to describe that feeling.

Depending on how you WW's AP behaved during the encounters, I can completely believe she did not enjoy it during the act. I think most women crave intimacy and when you have sex and it's not intimate it can be extremely deflating and even damaging. I know the idea that you could be sympathetic to your WW when hearing about her feeling dirty is absurd to you, but that is an awful awful feeling that she has to deal with. I imagine you are asking her about that over and over and making her revisit that in her head. Can't be good for her psyche

sarahstar
I thought of BS after, but rarely if never before and certainly not during. When getting ready to meet AP I had tunnel vision for him only and all other thoughts got pushed out. In my mind I was 22 and meeting someone for a date. I could almost feel the ties of responsibility fall off of me when driving there. It's like I took a hit off a crack pipe when I left my house and just got more and more high until I got back in the car to go back home to BS. Then I would crash. I had no concious betrayal of BS when AP and I were together.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 10:38 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 230 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I could almost feel the ties of responsibility fall off of me when driving there. It's like I took a hit off a crack pipe when I left my house and just got more and more high until I got back in the car to go back home to BS. Then I would crash.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across. For the last half or more of A#1, I would drive about an hour out to AP's house. I'd do it during work hours (thinking that if I had an A on "my time" that I wasn't shortchanging my BW or kids). So I'd have to make up an appointment on my calendar. I'd start my lies far in advance, so I'd need to start acting as if I had an appointment far enough away from the office that it would make sense to be out all morning. I'd have to "schedule" a client with whom I was working on something recently, but not too actively lest they would call my secretary and blow up my spot. So I'd get all wound up in all these stories and lies, which always made me feel awful.

During this time in my A, AP was dropping her kids off at daycare, so sometimes I'd have to let myself in the house and wait for her.

All during the drive out there, I'd kind of slip out of my normal self, and go into my A self. By the time I'd be in someone else's house waiting for AP, I'd be excited at that point, like a teenager.

When I left, I took the entire drive back to work to deal with my shame and guilt. By the time I had spent the entire morning going back and forth, I had the A packed away in my neat little box.

All of what I just admitted is gross. Even though I can tell you what was happening in my head, it never gets easier to see. Even if I explain it in rational sentences, and even if I understand what I did and why I did it, there is never a point where I say that any of it makes sense. It's all just so messed up. If it doesn't seem rational or logical to you, it is because (at least in my case) I was not rational or logical.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 650 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
ThatGuyNoMore
♂ Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RD75, it is quite possible your WW felt sick about what she was doing. I had multiple ONS and one LTA. Some of the ONS, I felt physically ill several times to the point that I couldn't continue with the sex act. Other ONS, I had no trouble. I couldn't tell you why some encounters did that to me and some didn't. Speculating here, maybe because I felt like I got to know one woman better than another--I don't know. With the LTA, the sex was something I usually enjoyed very much. I never got the butterflies of joy, however.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 211 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
♂ Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sarastar, no, I tried not to think of my BW. I was caught up in the moment.

For your WH, he needs to become mindful of dangerous situations so he doesn't find himself in one. He should know what's appropriate and what's not, and not even come close to crossing that line. If you're an alcoholic, you don't go into bars. If you're a wayward, you steer clear of those one-on-one situations and don't flirt.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 211 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
familyfirst
♀ Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

somethingremorse you make another good point that might help sarahstar. I think it must be hard to understand how if the WS did all the planning associated with the A like you described (and yes I had fake meetings, made up dr appts, etc on my calendar too) then the WS must be rational and thinking with a clear head. But YOU AREN'T. It's like the invasion of the body snatchers takes you over and you do/say/plan the most unbelievable things. There is no explaination for it! sarahstar your WH is still a jerk like the rest of us for doing what he did, but I really don't think he's lying to you when he says he was not thinking.

Posts: 230 | Registered: Mar 2014
Neverwudaguessed
♀ Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS must be rational and thinking with a clear head. But YOU AREN'T. It's like the invasion of the body snatchers takes you over and you do/say/plan the most unbelievable things. There is no explaination for it! sarahstar your WH is still a jerk like the rest of us for doing what he did, but I really don't think he's lying to you when he says he was not thinking.

This is so scary to me; this is what makes taking the chance on reconciliation so risky. Even with all the IC and MC and changes in behavior and thinking, what will keep a wayward from boing in that place where they are invaded by "body snatchers" and not thinking in a rational way? How does this NOT happen again?


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
ThatGuyNoMore
♂ Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Neverwudaguessed, your WH has to figure out the "why" of his A. It's probably not a superficial answer. Assuming your WH is remorseful, he should be doing the digging to figure this out, what led him down the path to make the choices he did, and what he can do in the future so he doesn't have another A nor make other destructive choices. Often there are deeper problems stirring inside waywards. But the "why" isn't an excuse. Other people have the same problems your WH has but they don't choose to cheat on their spouses. That's why he needs to continue to work after discovering "why" to figure out how to deal with things constructively.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 211 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Neverwudaguessed
♀ Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thatguynomore. Thank you. He has done much work i that area, yet my apprehension about trusting, about believing that the "body snatcher" no longer have an easy place to take up residence in my husband's head. I suppose that is the plight of the betrayed spouse.


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
familyfirst
♀ Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Neverwudaguessed
I don't know your WH's story, I should preface that the invasion of my body snatchers came after many poor decisions that I had the ability to control. You don't wake up one day as a 40 year old mother of 2 completely off your rocker meeting someone in a parking lot on your lunch hour. My A started by opening up to someone who wasn't my H. I got emotionally close to AP, then by the time the conversations became inappropriate I was already reliant on him for friendship and validation. The beginning was so subtle I didn't know or didn't want to see that it was even wrong. By the time I noticed I was going insane I felt like I was on a runaway train unable to get off.

How do I know that won't happy again? Because now I know the signs where a normal friendship can take a dangerous turn. I won't put myself in that situation again both physically or emotionally. And not just staying away from it, but I also plan to notice when I might be vulnerable (lonely, feeling unloved etc) and fixing that reason as well. ThatGuyNoMore said it well

For your WH, he needs to become mindful of dangerous situations so he doesn't find himself in one. He should know what's appropriate and what's not, and not even come close to crossing that line. If you're an alcoholic, you don't go into bars. If you're a wayward, you steer clear of those one-on-one situations and don't flirt.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 2:43 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 230 | Registered: Mar 2014
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Neverwudaguessed,
Even with all the IC and MC and changes in behavior and thinking, what will keep a wayward from boing in that place where they are invaded by "body snatchers" and not thinking in a rational way? How does this NOT happen again?
As ThatGuyNoMore said, working on the why will make a lot of difference. It will help him figure out where to start changing his thinking and his behaviour. He'll get to practice, every day. Ideally, the changes in thinking and behaviour in themselves lessen the vulnerability to an affair, in case your heartbreak and hurt isn't enough of a deterrent. And these changes will be visible in more areas than extramarital affairs, fortunately. If you look at his actions, you may be somewhat reassured, I hope.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 817 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
Yakamishi
♂ Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How long after D Day did you consider yourself to be completely honest? That is, when did you finally stop TTing?


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
RawDeal75
♂ Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:41 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks again! Your input is extremely valuable to me, and hopefully to others as well. The way you share these private details about yourselves and your thinking is just... wow!

Good analogy with the diving springboard! And I get and agree the difference between "joy" and winning in Black Jack.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
♂ Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To clarify things a bit: my WW has described her sexual encounters as fumbling and insecure in the beginning but utterly intimate and sensual as time went by. Slow, not rushed, very generous on both parts, lots of intense eye contact. She had several O during her encounters with the OM. These are some of the reasons I have such a hard time believing that the encounters would have been so disgusting...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

family first, I so appreciate your words. You describe things so well. As a woman, I wonder about this:

I know the idea that you could be sympathetic to your WW when hearing about her feeling dirty is absurd to you, but that is an awful awful feeling that she has to deal with.

My H is ashamed and remorseful about his actions now, and there were a few spots during the affair that he felt were sordid at the time, but as a man, I don't think he got that "dirty" feeling.

For me, I can't imagine not having that feeling after, say, having sex in an abandoned lot with a married man. Maybe not before or during, as you describe, but after. It gives me a tiny shred of empathy for his AP when I think that is how she may have felt. I see it as so self-destructive on her part. Of course, he said lots of wonderful stuff to her too, but also things like "I don't think you and I could be best friends like Bionicgal and I are," and it was understood all along that this was not an exit affair for him.

So, I guess my question is, if you don't mind, how did you deal with those feelings during the affair (if you had them during)? If any other WW wants to chime it, I'd appreciate it. I really am trying to get to the point where I can see some humanity in the AP so I can get to indifference.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Neverwudaguessed
♀ Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 9:57 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you familyfirst for your insight;I wish that my husband had not been clear about what he was about to do, but I believe that since this was an ex girlfriend, he knew that he was seeking attention from a woman who was beyond wiling to give him anything that he wanted. He was definitely looking for attention and the feeling of being completely adored. She would be the willing participant which was going to be the answer to his empty. I don't think there were any illusions there, but I could be wrong.

leftoolate: I do see the changes in MANY areas outside of the affair and you are reiterating EXACTLY what my IC says, that it is so apparent when we look at his actions. I SHOULD feel so reassured and I feel so guilty about that because so many BS wish for the effort ad change that I have received from my husband. Unfortunately the blindsided feeling that shocked me upon discovery keeps me from relaxing about the good that has come out of it. I think this is just something that I have to get myself past. I appreciate all of the input.

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 9:57 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
RawDeal75
♂ Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 3:50 AM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

bionicgal, I hope you donīt mind me commenting on your post. Iīm a BH, not a Wayward, so I may not be able to provide insight, but perhaps I could offer a different perspective on the AP. You mention that you want to se humanity in, and eventually indifference towards, the AP. I donīt know the details of your story (and the genders in our stories are the opposite), but for us the AP was an old flame (from 20+ years ago) who started inhabiting my WWīs surging "Sliding Doors-dreams". They had not met in 21 years when she contacted him. He is (was?) married with two beautiful kids. I had a lot of contact with him after D-day and even though he showed me no remorse/regret and never apologized to me, he was always curteous and respectful towards me. He gave me the full story while I only got TT from my wife. He seems to be a decent guy who made some horrible and despicable choices. To me, that makes him immoral, but I donīt loathe him, hate him or see him as inhuman. He never made me any promises. My WW did, and she broke those promises and my trust. I fully understand that there may be cases where the AP is a complete POS, but ours in not one of them, and I generally donīt understand the ill will towards the APīs I read and hear a lot about. I was betrayed by my WW, nobody else.

Just my two cents for what itīs worth...
(Now back to WS answering BS questions)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
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