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During a very heated discussion last night, WH told me I crossed the line. Cue me losing my ever loving mind. It was bed time, and thoughts always run wild when I lay down. So I started asking. WH was feeling "fragile" so after a few minutes, he asked if we could stop talking about it as he hates it being the last thing we discuss before sleep. "It messes with him". I didn't really oblige, just started talking about the relationship in general. Now, rewind, right before the affair, our relationship was awful. I contacted a realtor about selling our house and told WH he needed to leave. He begged the whole time to give him another chance, he loved me, picked me, would do anything for us, yada yada. Then engaged in a 2 week PA while telling me these things. So back to last night. I was so upset, so angry at him, so hurt by his lies that I said "I wish I had just listed the house and gone ahead with the divorce and started dating". And he replied "you just crossed a line". (This was after much negative back and forth). And I lost it. Screaming "I crossed a line by saying I would date?!?! You f-ing did it!!!!!! You tell me I crossed a line???". Only with a lot more vulgarity and profanity. I just can't process what he thinks. Me talking about dating is crossing the line, but he actually had sex with some awful woman! How does that make sense? In general he is very remorseful, although he does tend to get hung up on how bad he feels, how guilty, and not as attentive to how he made ME feel. He is still a selfish selfish man. He's working on it, though. I'm not sure what answers I am asking for. Just any insight? Any thoughts?

China-

((Gently))

For a long while, I felt like anything I did or said could be trumped by the fact that my H had an affair. He felt bad about staying up late? Too bad! He felt attacked by something I said? So what?

But, truthfully, BSes are responsible for their words, as well. Many waywards live in fear that their BSes are going to pack up and take off. You said something very hurtful, and probably scary, to your WS. He still has feelings, no matter how terribly he messed up.

We all have those moments early on when we maybe cross the line and say hurtful, ugly things. But, the goal is to get to a point where we own that behavior and treat the WS with respect as well. That doesn't mean they don't deserve all the anger, etc. that they earned, and that you don't get to express it. But, as I think you'd agree that you shouldn't punch a WS, it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

Understandable to want to, but not ok.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:50 PM, June 30th (Monday)]

it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

Lets agree to disagree with this!

I believe you are allowed to verbally assault for a period of time after Dday. After all, your speaking your pain.

Yeah, I disagree too, bionicgal, sorry. She really did feel that. It doesn't necessarily sound like a constructive fight, but I don't get the feeling that she said that just to hurt him. I think the WS seeing the pain of the BS is pretty crucial. And seeing the disconnect of their attitudes and reality. You gotta call them on their bullshit.

Not sure he sees it though, china.

How does that make sense?

It doesn't.

IMO he was merely trying to turn the table on you. He did not want to have any discussion about his A, you persisted (as you have every right to), and he found an opportunity to attempt to silence you.

"I wish I had just listed the house and gone ahead with the divorce and started dating"

Nothing, absolutely nothing in this ^^^ statement = crossing the line.

it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

^^^ I too disagree with this. My WH response to my ENDLESS rants and rage = "I deserve that" ~> and that's just another reason that we are 3 1/2 years out in successful R...He "sucked it up" until I processed the horrendous hurt that he intentionally inflicted. Too bad for him that it took me about 2 years.

Regrets? None.

You're not very far out from dday. What you said was fine. It is ok to vent your anger. It is actually healthy to get that poison out. His job, as remorseful husband who says he wants to R, is to listen to your anger and allow you to get it out. He needs to hear how you feel. There is a difference between verbal abuse and speaking the truth.

I would imagine what he said triggered a lot of painful memories for you. He crossed line after line..but you expressing your regret that you listened to his pretty words and all the while he was cheating on you...that had you not fallen for his lies then you might be in a place of happiness now, instead of dealing with the pain of being betrayed....that is crossing a line?

He was out of line,IMO.

And while,yes, mAny waywards live in fear that they will be left...there are many who want to rugsweep and nit talk about it. They use their BS's pain and anger as an excuse to not talk about it. I'm not sure what kind of wayward you're dealing with. Does he have no problem talking about it any other time? Is he doing what he needs to do to repair the damage he has cause?

If you read the wayward forum, you will see that most of them understand,accept, and some even welcome their BS's anger...because they understand its imperative that we be heard.

[This message edited by confused615 at 10:43 AM, June 30th (Monday)]

CD - you didn't cross any line.

Sorry BG - add me to the disagree list. Nothing CD said was abusive, and if that's what she thinks, why not bring it up?

CD - your WH doesn't sound remorseful. He's still all about him. He doesn't want to talk at bedtime. He doesn't want to hear you think about leaving. He he he! He sounds regretful that he's messed up his life, did something stupid, etc, but he doesn't sound remorseful. Saying you crossed a line, instead of understanding why you would think such a thing, tells me there's no real remorse inside of him yet.

Honestly, I'd start the 180.

I think it is understandable. I think we all do it, and like I said:

We all have those moments early on when we maybe cross the line and say hurtful, ugly things. But, the goal is to get to a point where we own that behavior and treat the WS with respect as well.

But, assuming we have a remorseful wayward who is working hard, answering questions, trying to help us heal, IMHO, threatening to leave, or saying one should have left, is counterproductive. It may be how we feel, but I know when I have said things like that, (and I have) I later regret it. These things can leave scars as well, make the wayward defensive and close up, and escalate the argument.

There is probably a truer sentiment under there - a real feeling that can be expressed that isn't meant to hurt. "I wish I had just listed the house. . " etc., is not a feeling really, it is a thought. I think it is understandable that China has these thoughts this early on, but I also think it is acceptable and understandable for her WS to indicate that he was hurt by it.

Get him to talk about his hurt when you said it China, and you'll be two steps ahead, I think. That way you get to express yourself, and he has to be vulnerable, too.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:52 PM, June 30th (Monday)]

assuming we have a remorseful wayward

The level of defensiveness shown says, to me, there is no remorse in this WH - only regret.

And, respectfully, wishing she was single, without the house and marriage, is a feeling, not a thought. She feels like she'd be better off if she had moved forward with separation prior to the A. She may not feel like this always, but to me, it's a feeling.

Lashing out is part of the process. I think before we remind people that 'WH has feelings too', we should remember that as well. There is hurt and anger that goes deeper than we imagined anything could, and releasing that is absolutely part of the process.

Almost a year from Dday and I say the same things. Generally not at bedtime since I don't want her crying while I try to sleep. Normally it's in the car on a drive.

I don't just blurt out "I should have divorced you", but there are days I certainly feel like it would have been the better option. There are pros to staying married and pros for divorce. Two of those are my dignity and dating someone who isn't going to cheat on me.

I see nothing wrong with sharing that. I want her to know there are pros to divorce so she knows how high the bar is to R. I'm an engineer and I'm going to go with the better list, sorry. But not really.

I just read your post from June 20, "Feel like I'm doing all the work."

He has done the easy things..given you transparency..but has done no digging, and he gets mad when you try and get him to talk about it.

Painfulpast is spot on. He is regretful, not remorseful. You absolutely have the right...the need...to talk about this. You have a need to get that anger out and be heard. What you did was not verbal abuse. He isn't doing everything he should be doing to make you feel safe and work on his issues.

[This message edited by confused615 at 11:25 AM, June 30th (Monday)]

We all get to set our own boundaries, and they're based on what we want, not logic. On one level, then, you have different boundaries about talking about D & dating. WRT your H's boundary, I think it's another crazy thing WSes say and think - something that comes up time and again, because cheating makes such lousy sense.

On another level, it sounds like you had a very heated discussion that ended badly. That happens from time to time.

On yet another level, you wanted to talk when he didn't want to. The conflict escalated. That happens from time to time.

If you R, I think you both will have to cut each other some slack. You both could say something you don't mean, and R means you'll allow each other to recover.

I don't see anything wrong with what you said, but if your H is a candidate for R, he's got to start accepting responsibility for any stupid comment he makes - by saying, for instance, something like, 'Sorry - I thought you were threatening D, and I want to R. Dating after D is OK; cheating on you is not OK.'

**********************************************

It's natural for BSes to get very angry, but attacking the WS doesn't really help release the anger. Sometimes the BS does it, for sure, but it provides only 'pseudo-relief'. The problem with anger is what it does to the angry person. Attacking others usually just keeps the anger inside.

There are healthy and unhealthy ways to deal with anger. No one is perfect, but the more you choose healthy expressions and the less you choose unhealthy ways, the better for you and for the people around you.

Juts sayin'....

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:28 AM, June 30th (Monday)]

Chinadoll:

Your cheating spouse is blameshifting and also asking for pity.

It sounds as if he is still self absorbed.

What you said is a normal thing one might say after being betrayed.

Too bad, if he lives in fear that you might leave him. There has to be some consequence to his cheating.

Don't make excuses for his behavior. Do not accept it. If you do, he will likely cheat again because there has been no consequence for his cheating.

He needs to start listening to you so that you can process your pain from his deceit.

you didnt cross the line. you are still in pain...and it needs to get out. i have learned that the first step in real healing is that the cheater needs to understand clearly just how much his actions have hurt you. getting all of this out can take months. going to weekly ic appointments helped me deal with the anger....so that i could live with him during this awful time....and attempt to r in a constructive way. and even then it was still hard.

a mc is also good for helping to get these feelings across.

saying mean and ugly things during this time is normal. you are hurt and he should understand that. at some point, hopefully that will die down...it will need to if you are to have a successful r. but it will take a long time.

you didnt cross the line. you are just upset.

Attacking others usually just keeps the anger inside.

No, suppressing anger keeps the anger inside.

Yikes! Attacking others is only one way of expressing it. IMO & IME, it's one of the less effective ones.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:29 PM, June 30th (Monday)]

I am not trying to just be obstinate here, but yes, BSes have a right to express their anger and hurt. But, I see over and over on SI people justifying behavior of BSes just because we are the injured party. I think it is more nuanced than that. Just because you were hurt, doesn't mean you can't hurt others, and that at some point we have to take ownership of that.

Regarding feelings vs thoughts, I read that if you can substitute the word "think" for "feel" then it is a thought. i.e. You can say "I think I should have listed the house, and gone ahead and started dating". Therefore, that is a thought, not a feeling. But, if it is a base feeling, it will not work. i.e. "I think sad," or, "I think hurt" vs. "I feel sad" or "I feel hurt." Make sense?

So, in my opinion, those were thoughts Chinadoll had. Understandable thoughts to have in her situation, but the feeling she was trying to express was deeper. If she can get to the feeling, and communicate it, then I think things will go easier. Same for Mr. Chinadoll.

When my husband told me for the first time that it scared him when I said "I should've just left you there, then -- in the backseat of the truck with AP," it made a huge impact on me. He had feelings too -- not just me. I was hurt, and so was he. We were both scared of the other person giving up. Healing comes from this place where we meet and really see each other. It is hard, and I still struggle with getting to my feelings, vs. thinking.

Just my experience.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 1:46 PM, June 30th (Monday)]

I can totally see feeling this way when if you get that pushback during angry argument about WH's A. I'd only say that after reflection in a calmer moment, consider whether you might really have crossed the line or whether he's just being defensive.

There are times during heated "discussions" that I will say things in a very hurtful way to WW. Not untrue things, but things said in a way that are intended to inflict pain rather than communicate.

Just because I am in pain, and because she over the last year behaved in an absurdly reprehensible, selfish and destructive way doesn't mean that it is acceptable to intentionally hurt her, even though it is understandable.

I have apologized when I cross the line. I will do so again, because sometimes the anger causes that.

That said, I think in the heat of that moment if my wife were to call me out right then... I totally understand where you are coming from, that sounds part of our new normal from all this :(

OK - let's just look at the line said - "I wish I would have sold the house and left."

Forgetting everything else - feeling vs thought, hurting a WS, etc. - I don't see this as crossing any lines. That thought, feeling, emotion, desire, whatever, is real in that moment. If the WS doesn't like hearing that, after such a deep betrayal the BS has thoughts of just walking, then the WS is in some pretty heavy denial. After the destruction they willingly brought into the marriage, they'd have to have their head firmly up their ass to think the BS didn't think of leaving, or other similar thoughts. If that scares the WS, tough shit! If they were so scared, they wouldn't have cheated.

If I eat an entire cheesecake every day for a month, I'd have to be an idiot to wonder why my pants didn't fit. Actions have consequences. Yes, I know, they didn't think they'd get caught. Really? Is that an excuse? The BS knows. The WS knew, with every phone call, secret meeting, sext, that they were risking their marriage. They didn't care. Well, now it's out of their hands. If they're scared, that's really on them.

A BS saying they wished that they had walked, to me, isn't even close to the line, let alone over it.

PP:

The WS knew, with every phone call, secret meeting, sext, that they were risking their marriage. They didn't care. Well, now it's out of their hands. If they're scared, that's really on them.

You are assuming that affairs are rational. They are, practically by definition, irrational. The dangers/repercussions were theoretical for most waywards. If most waywards were thinking clearly, as you describe, then they wouldn't do what they did. (And, no one would get fat, and no one would get addicted to anything, because we are all nothing but rational creatures.)