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I'm hoping it may help me to put a situation out there and think through what the best thing to do it.

I have NC with my mother who is an emotional manipulator (undiagnosed narcissist). I made the realisation at the beginning of last year and have been on the journey through guilt and shame to accept that NC is the way to go.

From time to time she will try and hoover but its mostly calls with no message or a txt I delete. The trouble is she still speaks to my son and she sees him occasionally, supervised by my Ex. I am still unsure if this the right thing to do but I wanted to keep any drama to a minimum.

She has mentioned her lack of contact with me to my son and I feel so bad that she is putting guilt on him too. I am feeling like I need to call her and tell her not to contact me again and that I will allow her to continue to speak to DS as long as she doesn't talk about me.

So 2 questions:

1) Do you think I should stop her contact with DS?

2) Do you think I should explicitly spell out the NC rules (as above)

So now she's using your son to try to manipulate you? Oh, hell no! She knows this is wrong and will keep on until you make ds stop seeing her as well. Honey, cut off her access to your son. He doesn't need to be in the middle of her game!

How old is your son?

If he is a little guy, under 16 I would be calling and laying down the law.

If he is older I would be painfully honest about the unhealthy relationship you have with her, and explain why you choose to live without her drama.

My Mom is very similar, but I do have contact, and live near, and tolerate it. I do not engage in the drama though. I have resigned to being the underachieving, less perfect kid, cause I'm damn happy. My kids 15 & 17 are totally aware of the dysfunction, and can laugh at it, and not get sucked in either.

He's twelve, and I know, I know. You must know how difficult this is and I guess I'm looking for validation.

I guess I need to speak to both of them in some way. I really don't want to break NC but feel I need to say something to her.

DS says he likes seeing her but I think it might be guilt or fear driven. Or am I projecting my fear onto him. So difficult to know what to do.

How did the subject come up with your kids?

[This message edited by KatieG at 2:27 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

Honestly - My H has a no nonsense approach to many things including the dysfunction between my mother and I.

He will call me out on it, if I waver, or start to get suckered in. My kids have been aware that my relationship with my mom is not normal, and that Grandma is a bit bitter about a lot of things, and has an opinion on everything, and if you disagree you are wrong and stupid. So they have learned to take my approach, if you disagree, you just nod and let it go. You can't change her mind, or her behavior. Her behavior has nothing to do with me, or my kids, it's all on her. My 15 actually feels sad for her, that Gma can't be as happy as everyone else.

I need to get to that place. She's more subtle, like a little girl, uses her health to get attention and sympathy, she takes a victim role and most people fall for it. She's one of those who thinks she loves me sooo much.

It's been difficult to convey the impact she's had on me as her child to people. I have support now from ex, bf and some friends. The rest of the family don't speak to me except 2 of them because she has taken a victim role.

I don't think my DS would get that and I'm not sure I want to explain it all to him now. Adults have a hard time with it. But I just have a need to protect him from her because he's a child.

If your mother is so toxic, why would you allow your son to ever have contact with her? I'm struggling to understand why you feel you have to protect him now after whatever time has passed. Perhaps it's more a dysfunction between the two of you than between her and the rest of the world? If so, that's more than ok. You have to protect yourself, but yes, you could be projecting your difficulties onto your son.

Is your son a mature 12-year old? If so, I don't think that's too young to set the record straight with him about your mom. He's reaching an age where he can make decisions about who he sees and who he doesn't with guidence from you and his father.

Yes he's quite mature, so it might be ok. I feel over sensitive because my true feelings were very deeply buried because of the emotional abuse. I don't want him to suffer or bury stuff in the same way I did.

I think I am still scared of the fallout from stopping contact between them.

My Mom is very similar, but I do have contact, and live near, and tolerate it. I do not engage in the drama though.

This sounds exactly like my situation, but it's taken years, many of which included complete NC on my part, to get there.

She's mellowed recently though, at least with me. I think it's because we were in NC when Dday hit and through the divorce process and I never called her and let her know what was going on once. She found out about a year later when she contacted me. She's also now cut off so much of our family, my brother and I are about the only ones left, so she kinda has to be nicer now.

My kids, now 19 & 21, have known their grandma is "crazy" since they were little - they've witnessed many of her outbursts. Your mom sounds like she has the victim role down. If your Ex is supportive, have you asked him to end the "visits" when he has your son?

Hi KatieG. I know you know my story and that I too struggle in this dept. I'm out of town right now with MrsYop but wanted to let you know that there is nothing wrong with keeping up the NC. I will never leave my kids alone with NPD mom because of the abuse that I suffered. Specifically the emotional manipulation even more so than the physical abuse. My 10 year old DS even started to notice things with NPD mom. Right now I'm keeping NC until Sept (started in May) pane I may just keep NC permanently. Talk to your DS about it and why things are the way they are and why you halve to remain NC. I would tell him why you are stopping his contact with your mom and stop the contact. You know the damage you suffer. As many others have said to me here, don't feel guilty about it for one second.

I'll check back in when I have more time.

Strength to you KatieG

yop

Thanks yop. I'm back and forth on this and just struggle with what to say to him. I was going to be careful and not criticise her to him, but she is my abuser and I am still protecting her. I want to be able to describe somehow why she is dangerous.

I need to get to that place. She's more subtle, like a little girl, uses her health to get attention and sympathy, she takes a victim role and most people fall for it. She's one of those who thinks she loves me sooo much.

It's been difficult to convey the impact she's had on me as her child to people. I have support now from ex, bf and some friends. The rest of the family don't speak to me except 2 of them because she has taken a victim role.

I don't think my DS would get that and I'm not sure I want to explain it all to him now. Adults have a hard time with it. But I just have a need to protect him from her because he's a child.

Yes he's quite mature, so it might be ok. I feel over sensitive because my true feelings were very deeply buried because of the emotional abuse. I don't want him to suffer or bury stuff in the same way I did.

I think I am still scared of the fallout from stopping contact between them.

I'm back and forth on this and just struggle with what to say to him. I was going to be careful and not criticise her to him, but she is my abuser and I am still protecting her. I want to be able to describe somehow why she is dangerous.

Hi Katie G. I could have written each one of those statements my self. MrsYop and I read through this thread and discussed a bit over the weekend as this is going to be my reality shortly.One of the symptoms of being the child of a narcissist is not being able to articulate what happened to you as a child. It's taken me years to figure out how to. When I tell people that my mother gave me a hard time for taking out the trash...well who's mother didn't give them a hard time. So them I'll explain that my mother was emotionally manipulative and would say if I didn't take out the trash that I didn't love her. That if she had to ask, then I dind't really love her. Even then it doesn't sound that bad. It's the bigger picture that is missed. If you hear this 100x a day, along with I'm going to leave you at the store if you don't behave, or I'm going to leave you at home alone (age5) if you don't behave, or get locked in the bathroom for the day, or be told that everything you do is not good enough day in day out, suddenly taking out the trash is no longer just taking out the trash because hearing all of that stuff combined 100's of times a day, you start to believe you are worthless. I grew upi with no confidence and self worth. I still don't have much.

And THAT is why we protect our children around our mother's isn't it? This is why we want NC for our children with out mothers. What we struggle with is explaining why to people and it comes out sounding lie we are the cruel one's by not letting our children interact with their grandmothers. But we know the bigger picture and the impact that the emotional manipulation will have on our kids, because we still feel the affects today.

You know your mother. You know the impact that she has had on you and your life. You are completely justified in having your DS have NC with your mother. I haven't completely ruled NC 100% for the rest of my life with my mother, though I'm getting there more and more each day, but I will not allow my DS10, DD8, or DD4 to be alone with her. EVER! At the very least.

So how do we gently tell our children the NC news? This is what MrsYop and I were discussing. I think I'm going to have to sit my kids down (separately) and in their own age appropriate language let them know what is going on and why they may no longer have contact with their grandmother. I'll stick with my DS10 for this conversation. I'm not going to get very elaborate and keep it simple. I'm going to also try and be as honest as possible. I'm going to let him know, as much as I can and try not to badmouth, that there are many things that happened to me in my childhood long before he was born. Those things that happened to me are still having an affect on me personally to this day. What I need to do for myself, to be a happy and whole person, is NC. By extension, I think it is in DS's best interest as well. There are things that I see from an adult perspective that are not obvious to you DS. I need to make sure he understands that this isn't revenge, that this is self preservation and I'm sorry that if it hurts him, but it's my job as the parent to protect us both. I'll let him know when he is an adult, if he wants to know more and understand more, I will talk to him then.

On another level, I've already put a lot of distance between my NPD mom and us anyway. Part of me thinks in my sitch that if I say nothing, they may not even notice. The least traumatic thing for us may be to do nothing. But that's where they don't have much of a relationship with my mother anyway. In your case it sounds like your DS already has an established relationship. I still may end up talking to my own DS shortly.

She has mentioned her lack of contact with me to my son and I feel so bad that she is putting guilt on him too. I am feeling like I need to call her and tell her not to contact me again and that I will allow her to continue to speak to DS as long as she doesn't talk about me.

If DS is not NC with her, the next step for your mother is that she will be saying things like.... "Don't tell your mother xyz". Ever ask your DS how he feels about her? My DS this past winter said that he noticed that his grandmother didn't like boys very much. I had to explain it's not boys but his grandmother will only do what she wants to do when she want's to do it.

My mother's favorite role to play is the victim. She plays that part for my kids well. It's soooo frustrating.

yop

It's interesting the different roles these types of mom's play. This jumped out at me from yop:

One of the symptoms of being the child of a narcissist is not being able to articulate what happened to you as a child. It's taken me years to figure out how to.

My mom wasn't so good at the victim thing, but has always been very controlling and had a mean angry temper. (I have a close childhood friend who has seen her in action and is now a mental health professional - she thinks my mom is a borderline - though God forbid she ever see a therapist and actually be honest and be diagnosed). And just as YOP stated, it has taken me years to not just know how to articulate it, but to honestly admit the truth to myself, because I doubted myself and my perception for so long. Even as she cut off member by member of our family when she got angry, I still justified, it's this blind loyalty the control she exerted in my childhood engrained in me, and lost contact with that family too. I was in my early 30's before I finally was able to tell her how controlling she was. I was "crazy" of course.

I admire that yop has intentionally kept his kids from being alone with his mom. When I was a young single mom, I let my mom watch my kids afterschool for a while - lasted less than six months before I found an afterschool program. She was very angry I did it, but I just couldn't expose them to her crazy, especially ALONE, anymore.

Anyway KatieG, I don't know that I'm any help, but this thread has really struck a familiar nerve, and I think you need to do what you have to do to protect your child.

Oddly enough, my XWH was the one who finally taught me how to stop letting her control me. I would always give in to what she wanted - and he taught me one sentence that changed my life: "That's just not going to work out for us mom." That one sentence gave me the power to take control of my own life without concern over her reaction. It was truly wonderful, and carries over to this day (with occasional NC periods peppered in between)...

((KatieG))

[This message edited by persevere at 7:02 PM, July 6th (Sunday)]

but to honestly admit the truth to myself, because I doubted myself and my perception for so long. Even as she cut off member by member of our family when she got angry, I still justified, it's this blind loyalty the control she exerted in my childhood engrained in me, and lost contact with that family too. I was in my early 30's before I finally was able to tell her how controlling she was. I was "crazy" of course.

I hear ya persevere! All of this just happened to me at age 40. I couldn't admit it until one day this past Oct she brought me to my knees and I ended up here on SI. The anger that mother used to have, like yours, has turned more to the victim role in recent years as she has gotten older. No less lethal.

The anger that mother used to have, like yours, has turned more to the victim role in recent years as she has gotten older. No less lethal.

It's funny you say that YOP, because now that my mom has pretty much no one but my younger brother and I, she seems to be "softening" in her behavior, at least with me. She's still crazy with the rest of my family, which still saddens me, but I now have a relationship with them. My kids and I now spend every Easter with my mom's brother and his family, tons of cousins, I'm sad she can't be a part of it, but it's of her own making, so I don't stress about it anymore.

My younger brother though is 28 and he has very little exposure to all of that family which is also a sad thing, but he doesn't see it yet, though I'm pretty sure my mom is why his serious relationship ended a year ago. But as long as he chooses not to see it, there is nothing I can do. To approach him about it wouldn't accomplish anything productive.

I'm so sorry we have this in common, but it's nice to have someone who gets it to communicate with.

Thanks both. I didn't speak to DS this weekend about it. I froze because to struggle with describing the problem makes me go in the "you're crazy" loop in my head. His silence on the subject as well, makes me think she does say to him "don't tell mom" etc. Ugh high.

I will be alone with him to tonight and HAVE to have that conversation.

I was talking about the drama triangle to BF and that I will be the perpetrator. To not criticise her keeps her as the victim and she is the perpetrator. I need the courage to tell him she is harmful.

When I talk to other adults she tries to triangulate with, I coach them to not get involved and keep conversations short. They get it. But can I tell my son to the same.

I have asked him how he feels and of course he believes he loves her. I allowed them time together when he was younger and I was in denial. He was the sacrificial lamb. I feel so bad about that now. I'm going to get my thoughts in order and do this.

I have decided not to contact her, NC means NC and she would get N-supply from that. Thanks so much for your support.

I need the courage to tell him she is harmful.

I know you are coming to grips with what happened to you, much as I still am, but know this... You are stronger than you know. You already have this courage. Look at everything you have been through. Use that strength. When you talk to your DS, draw your courage from him out of your love for him.

You can do this.

NC means NC and she would get N-supply from that

You are absolutely correct! I've been learning about this myself. One of the things that I have read several times in several places is that one of the narcissists greatest fears is abandonment. It ties into that supply. They will go to great lengths to keep you as part of their supply, especially as they get older and their supplies start to dry up.

I used this knowledge as a weapon against my own mother. I was/am ready to walk away permanently never to speak to her again. I called her bluff several times using this. It's what kept her ass in a chair for over and hour and a half while she was forced to listed to me and I made her look in a mirror as to what she did to me and my family. That narc supply can be used against you, unless you know what it is and how it works with her in which case you can use it against her and call the shots. Stay NC! Otherwise you will be back part of that supply.

Continued strength and courage to you KatieG!!

And persevere

I'm so sorry we have this in common, but it's nice to have someone who gets it to communicate with.

It is nice to have someone to talk to about this. I find the more that I talk about it with people like you and Katie, the stronger I get. I'm around anytime for pm's or whatever.

yop

I have been in your shoes Katie G. You're making the right choice by not contacting her. The only way to avoid her trying to suck you in is by not giving her the chance to. My mother is the same way.

It's tough when you have kids. You want so much to have a normal family. My mother robbed me of that. I'll never have that big family around the Thanksgiving table. I'll never have that generational picture of my mother, me, my daughter and her daughter. I grieve over that occasionally. So I don't stop my daughter from contacting my mother. If she can get a nugget of that family life, so be it. My mother can't harm my daughter. The dynamic is different. But she knows the harm my mother has caused me and knows how to avoid manipulation from her.

Thanks for the messages. I do feel stronger today. I want him to know how serious it is that I have decided to go NC. I want him to know that I need to protect him from her.

I am thinking it go something like:

I want to talk to you about GM and tell you the reasons why I don't talk to her anymore. I thought I was protecting you from grown up stuff by not telling you but I know that's not fair because you deserve to know the truth.

I am telling you this because its the truth, you deserve to know and I want to protect you.

Still working it out but it helps to write something down. What do you guys think about the speakerphone thing?

This is all a very good start. Very appropriate for him. However, if he is going to have contact on speaker phone...what happens when GM says things that are emotionally manipulative to him and you hear it. Are you going to end the call then and there? What is the plan for that sitch and then what is the plan if he's being manipulated at all under any circumstances such as when the visit. With me, I set up boundaries and consequences with my mother...if we go back to having contact those will be the rules she has to follow. If she disrespects my kids or my family at all (this includes emotional manipulation) I have informed my mother verbally and in writing that she will be escorted off my property regardless of time of day or event that may be happening. In other words, she gets the boot. If we were visiting at her house, which we will not, then we up and leave her apartment immediately.

That's the only problem I have with the speaker phone is that DS has to know what the plan is if something inappropriate happens. It's thinking of these consequences for my own kids is why I may be leaning towards NC permanently. Why put my kid through the scene and drama of throwing my mother out. Not sure I want to do that to me kids.

yop