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User Topic: Wayward victimhood
Maverick1998
♂ New Member
Member # 41909
Frustrated  Posted: 11:07 PM, July 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It’s been several months since I posted on SI (I moved over to DB for a few months), but could really use some input.

I found out about my WW’s 3-year affair this past December. Over the next seven months (nearly into June) she sat on the fence about whether to visit the MC or a divorce mediator. After each DM session she’d waffle, saying that she thought that she wanted to try MC again. After doing this twice I finally told her that we were getting divorced…no more games. I started packing my clothes and moving stuff that I’d be taking with me out into the garage in preparation for moving out. Three days before our final session with the mediator my WW said that she thought that she was making a huge mistake and that if we tried she was sure that we could make things work. She asked that I contact the DM and postpone the last session.

Fast forward to about a month later. We’ve been to see the MC three times now. The MC hasn’t acted as a bigger hammer on my behalf or sided with my WW against me. She’s encouraged us (WW) to read “Not Just Friends”, but admonished me for getting passive-aggressive about WW not getting a copy as quickly as I liked. She’s set up some basic guidelines for talking about the affair (set a time and place so that I can have my questions answered and so that WW isn’t constantly being sniped throughout the day). She’s backed me on my need to validate my WW’s story with actual data (phone/text records, e-mail, etc.)…I discovered the affair by snooping and WW lied until I’d backed her into a corner with the information. I feel like I have a solid advocate for rebuilding the marriage who’ll address both sides.

During the last session (as the MC told me after WW had left and I was paying), the MC let WW vent since WW didn’t feel like her side of the story was being told. All of the focus was on the A and what I wanted from her. What about her?

Prior to this last session my WW told me that even though I think that all of our problems have to do with her and the affair, in reality it’s all my fault. The reason why she went to the OM was because “I always want what I want and I want it that way now”. Nothing is ever about her. The two major areas where this has occurred has been in house work (I do all of the yard work, cleaning, laundry, etc. …everything but cooking for WW) and in taking care of our DD (WW has been busy with her affair since 6 months after DD was born). Even then all I can do is bitch and moan and she still gets her way. A couple examples where this isn’t quite the case:
- We moved into a house two hours away from my office because she liked the location
- I have a long commute and am gone 13 hours per day. She works from home. She doesn’t understand why I get upset when she can’t be bothered to empty the dishwasher or clean up her breakfast and lunch dishes
- In her downtime during the day, she likes to do online surveys and go garage sale-ing (to resell stuff online). Even though we aren’t hurting for money and I’ve told her that I need more help around the house, she refuses to unplug. At one point she was even bragging that she got one of the companies to GIVE HER MORE surveys to do.
- After DD was born, WW wanted to sleep in on the weekends (I was still working that 13 hour day during the week). She still doesn’t understand why I would open her curtains at 8am to wake her up (I’d usually been up since 6am or so)
- I shifted the training schedule for my marathon around to accommodate her weekend activities…turns out it was so that she wouldn’t have to get out of bed with the OM as early
- After having completed her recovery from plastic surgery (~$10k), she told me that we needed to start saving money because divorce is expensive
- She told me after the second MC session that she’d continued the PA with the OM over the past six months because she needed the support and needed time to decide on her own that the relationship wasn’t for her.

I could probably keep going on, but I’m getting angry all over again. She blames me not meeting all of her needs on the 3-year affair and says that the 6 month continuation doesn’t count because we were in the process of getting divorced. She says that nothing is ever about her (which it isn’t unless it is…which it is most of the time). She complains in MC that I treat her like a child when she’s dealing with DD…which I do sometimes when she acts like one. I had to explain tonight that, yes, our 3-year old is allowed to get mad at her when WW tells her not to do something. She can tell WW that she’s mad. I keep telling DD that’s how she can let people know. Hitting/kicking/throwing isn’t.

I’ve accepted that I married a narcissist. Has anyone on here had ANY luck getting through to someone like this? Getting them to own up to their share of the problems?


Me: 31
WW: 30
married 5 yrs
Together 12 years
3yr A (PA & EA)
one DD, 3yrs old

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Chicago
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 11:30 PM, July 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So you have been doing things for her and she has been only thinking of herself, right? Sounds very familiar to me.

Seems she loves being on the fence, and the ego kibbles from the OM and from you, and the $$ from you. If she's getting $ from OM, then the circle is complete, isn't it? All that's missing is for you and OM to have a fistfight for her and she'll have her Bizarro-Disney-Princess dream come true, where she can decide who's the best man based on who wins.

You said you read "Not Just Friends". Read it again. What to do is right there. It's also time to change books...

Kick her off the fence. File for D. Get "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality disorder", and get a copy for your lawyer. The steps are:

1) Quietly open a CC account with at least $5K (for the retainer)
2) Interview a few lawyers (many will give you one hour free)
3) File
4) When she gets served, tell her she can either respond or stop NC, and agree to everything you ask. Cold turkey.

Any L will tell you, until you actually send it to the judge, it's not final. She can use that time (usually about 6 months) to decide.

Warning: She may (and probably will) call your bluff.

This is not a bluff.

If you want her, be ready to lose her. Put it in another way, you've already lost her. Start the motions and she may realize she may lose you and then maybe, just maybe, she'll decide she wants you back.

But keep in mind that you can't change her. She has to change herself. This has nothing to do with you.

Cheers man, sorry this happened to you. We're all in similar boats.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 755 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Brandon808
♂ Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, July 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Prior to this last session my WW told me that even though I think that all of our problems have to do with her and the affair, in reality it’s all my fault. The reason why she went to the OM was because “I always want what I want and I want it that way now”.
Assuming that were true that would be a reason to D you. Not a justification for 3 years of betrayal.

For me personally I wouldn't accept my WW being a narcissist. I'd accept my xww being a narcissist.
Unfortunately it sounds like your WW is not liking being accountable for her behavior since it messes with her mindset of blameshifting.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4000 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
Lark
♀ Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 12:43 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you guys in individual counseling on top of marriage counseling?
Have you set a timeline of "I commit xyz amount of time before assessing how MC is going?" type thing?

Those are tough issues in a marriage without an affair. Without the affair, my initial reaction would be to wonder if she has depression. Aside from the surveys, is she a stay at home mom?

I'm not justifying or anything what she's done, just thinking outloud if I saw the questions in a situation without an affair - that kind of marriage can be difficult for a couple even without an A tossed in. Gone 13 hours a day, she sounds like she's craving professional work, mounting housework tensions, ridiculous commutes, etc.

Toss in an affair and of course everything is going to be amplified that much more as she dedicates more mental and emotional energy towards that. I know at least in my husband's case it's hard to say where possible depression ended and selfishness/narcissism began


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 740 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
Maverick1998
♂ New Member
Member # 41909
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you want her, be ready to lose her. Put it in another way, you've already lost her. Start the motions and she may realize she may lose you and then maybe, just maybe, she'll decide she wants you back.

By the time we started rolling into the last DM session, this was where I was…detached and ready to move on. What she had to agree to in order to stop the divorce was NC, transparency, and attending MC.

She agreed to NC and has turned over all the login and password information I’ve asked for. We contacted the MC and get on her schedule. Here’s the rub I found: she’d gone through all of her accounts and deleted any “incriminating evidence” from the last six months (i.e. e-mails, texts, voicemails). She told me that she was under the impression that transparency was about moving forward, not trying to recreate a timeline of the past. Not only that, but she and the OM apparently been using an app for the last six months that effectively hides texts, never saving a record once the app is deleted and never having them appear on a phone bill.

But keep in mind that you can't change her. She has to change herself. This has nothing to do with you.

This and realizing that I have no control over the outcome are the two things that I’ve had a very difficult time accepting. She has to want to change, but she has to realize that there’s a problem. I don’t think that she’d hear it from me. I’m hoping that if she hears it from the MC she might listen. Whether or not we stay married DD will still end up living with her 50% of the time.


Me: 31
WW: 30
married 5 yrs
Together 12 years
3yr A (PA & EA)
one DD, 3yrs old

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Chicago
Maverick1998
♂ New Member
Member # 41909
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you guys in individual counseling on top of marriage counseling?

Right now, no. I was in IC for a couple months while she was riding the fence. I’ve actually found the board over at NMMNG to be more insightful into my personal issues than the two IC’s I visited. WW was in IC for several sessions (our MC has another person in her office who does the IC sessions), but eventually stopped because she felt that the IC was always questioning “her willingness”. That was also several months ago.

I’ve stuck with the board over at NMMNG…it’s made a big difference in MC to be able to own up to my share of the problems in the M.

Have you set a timeline of "I commit xyz amount of time before assessing how MC is going?" type thing?

Yes, I’m going to wait three months before reassessing.

Those are tough issues in a marriage without an affair. Without the affair, my initial reaction would be to wonder if she has depression. Aside from the surveys, is she a stay at home mom?

Without the affair things might have been more manageable. We met young and so have the problems from early on. Seven years later (long if you count before moving in together), I’m still accountable for my actions when I was still in my early twenties (your typical NG b.s.).

No, she’s a field agent for a federal agency. She spends half of her time out of the house either on a nearby military base or in the field. The other half she spends at home typing cases. She gets paid based on the expected productivity of a 40-hour week, not to do 40 hours of work, so if she’s efficient or can get her work done quickly, she can use the downtime as she pleases. We also receive the exact same pay (I’m a federal employee as well)…the only difference is that I’m an engineer with graduate degrees in hydraulic and coastal engineering, whereas she has a communications degree and her supervisor is an alumnus from her college.

This was actually another sticking point for her. Initially she was teasing me about my graduate work, asking what the point was of spending all that time if we just ended up earning exactly as much money. She stopped that song when I told her that she was overpaid and would never pull down that salary or type of position if she tried to enter the private sector with her education or experience. Now her complaint is that she feels that she deserves a husband that actually earns more than his wife (her agency gives OT, mine does not).

I'm not justifying or anything what she's done, just thinking out loud if I saw the questions in a situation without an affair - that kind of marriage can be difficult for a couple even without an A tossed in. Gone 13 hours a day, she sounds like she's craving professional work, mounting housework tensions, ridiculous commutes, etc.

Even with the 13 hour schedule, I’m still stepping off the train at 5pm and home with DD by 530pm. THEN I’m able to start doing the dishes, doing laundry, mowing the lawn, etc. Part of the problem for me is that if I ever slow down my pace, I don’t have a partner who will pick up the slack. She was raised in a family where it was okay for the dishes to stack up and the laundry to overflow. I was raised in a big-ish family in a small-ish house (6 people, 1000 sq ft)…without order there would be chaos. For us THAT is the primary friction point in the relationship. We got along fine as a couple until we had to try living together! Add the fact that we’re both non-confrontational and you can see how I ended up here!

Toss in an affair and of course everything is going to be amplified that much more as she dedicates more mental and emotional energy towards that.

It’s odd, but the affair forced a major change in the dynamic of the relationship. Before we used to argue about things. Once the affair started, she stopped….she just didn’t care anymore. I thought that things were getting better. Sometimes I’d get frustrated about stuff, but there wasn’t any pushback or resistance. She just didn’t care.

I know at least in my husband's case it's hard to say where possible depression ended and selfishness/narcissism began.

Oh, this one was narcissistic for as long as I’ve known her. Part of the appeal was her ambition and air of superiority. If she wanted something she usually got it. Unfortunately she also wasn’t the most loyal of girlfriend’s back then, either. Looking back I can see all the warning signs and missed opportunities to plant my flag and establish what behavior was unacceptable.

Has your husband been able to confront his narcissism?


Me: 31
WW: 30
married 5 yrs
Together 12 years
3yr A (PA & EA)
one DD, 3yrs old

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Chicago
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hang on a sec, did I read this right: Your Dday was last December......and your WW continued her affair until just recently (as in last month)?


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8087 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Brandon808
♂ Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don’t think that she’d hear it from me. I’m hoping that if she hears it from the MC she might listen.
It won't matter who she hears it from. It has to come from within.

Now her complaint is that she feels that she deserves a husband that actually earns more than his wife (her agency gives OT, mine does not).
She "deserves"??? How about the fact that you deserve a wife who doesn't cheat. Your WW sounds incredibly shallow and generally lacking in character. Her reveal in MC basically means that she's been going through the motions and didn't actually believe she was wrong. Not only that but all that she was supposedly doing for R was just a show. Just to humor you and get you to change your mind about D. Why? Because you provide half the income. Because you do take care of so much at home. As much as she may claim she dislikes it she clearly depends on it. She wants to cake eat. She wants to justify her cheating and all-around selfish behavior by blaming you. Yet she still wants to reap the benefits of you being there. Your income, your support, your hard work to keep the household going.

Sorry if this too harsh but your WW has no integrity or character at all. She doesn't strike me as an otherwise good person who made a bad decision. Her words and actions mark her as a selfish, narcissistic person whose actions and words are reflecting that nature more and more.

You are the one who deserves better.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4000 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
norabird
♀ Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems to me that there is no hope for your WW. My exWBF was a narcissist, I'm pretty sure; sometimes he would talk a good game about working on his insecurity and changing to be safe for me, but underneath it there was endless toxic resentment. He resented my very need to be made safe and for him to step up and change, and used it as justification to keep betraying me. The type of selfishness and inability to empathize, the constant victim card that the NPD use in their heads about their terrible behavior, the refusal to see any needs but their own as valid...it is impossible to go up against that. They continue the cheating because they really think they deserve it. They think we the BP are too demanding and refuse to see that their behavior is unacceptable. Personally I couldn't try to R with someone who was willing to blame me for their cheating. The nerve of that is astonishing to me though I know it's common wayward script.

Your wife has not come out of her fog but it's more than an A fog I think--it's a personality fog. You have accepted that you can't make her change but holding out hope that she will see the light on her own when she won't even go to IC is hurting you. Her IC questioned her willingness for good reason--she isn't willing. I know you want her to be like you, able to own her shit and be an honest partner, willing to compromise and work on healing...but that would require her to be able to step outside of her own little self-centered universe, and her past behavior indicates this is extremely unlikely. You can stay married to her but you can't hope to change the dynamics with an unremorsefully partner who is still convinced that you are the bad guy. Which means that filing for D seems like the better alternative. Sit with it for a while, give her those three months if you need to; but people are who they are. Change is very hard. And the commitment to change has to be rock solid if it is to work.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Maverick1998
♂ New Member
Member # 41909
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, July 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hang on a sec, did I read this right: Your Dday was last December......and your WW continued her affair until just recently (as in last month)?

Yep, you read that right. When she told me I was honestly expecting worse, so it didn’t hurt as much as I was anticipating. As odd as it might sound, I just thought, “Okay, good. This is at least familiar territory!” The more that I think about it, though, the more angry I get.

It won't matter who she hears it from. It has to come from within.

I didn’t think that I had a problem of my own to deal with until someone on a thread here challenged me. I wasn’t really able to put my finger on it until someone on another thread suggested I read NMMNG. It’s wasn’t until that point that I was really able to get a handle on my own situation and start dealing with my own issues. I hope that she might be able to have a similar experience at some point.

Her reveal in MC basically means that she's been going through the motions and didn't actually believe she was wrong. Not only that but all that she was supposedly doing for R was just a show. Just to humor you and get you to change your mind about D. Why? Because you provide half the income. Because you do take care of so much at home. As much as she may claim she dislikes it she clearly depends on it. She wants to cake eat. She wants to justify her cheating and all-around selfish behavior by blaming you. Yet she still wants to reap the benefits of you being there. Your income, your support, your hard work to keep the household going.

I think that she honestly thinks that what she’s doing is trying to reconcile. I think that she seriously thinks that by going to MC she’ll be able to convince both the MC and me that all the problems in the relationship are my fault and that I’m the one that needs to change. I’m not denying that I’ve had some serious shortcomings in the marriage, but I’ve recognized them (or at least some of them) and am trying to make them better.

You’re right, though. I think that what she likes about me is the package that I bring to the table. In the settlement that we arranged she gets to keep the house. I just don’t know if she’ll actually even be able to keep ahead of all the routine maintenance if things go that route.

Sorry if this too harsh but your WW has no integrity or character at all. She doesn't strike me as an otherwise good person who made a bad decision. Her words and actions mark her as a selfish, narcissistic person whose actions and words are reflecting that nature more and more.
You are the one who deserves better.

It’s not too harsh and thanks for the kind words. If anything I think that it’s my DD who deserves better…a mom who isn’t a cheating narcissist and a father who wasn’t so reluctant to pull the D trigger. This was the first time she cheated while we were married (that I know of), but not the first time in our relationship. I’d chalked the past up to her just being young and stupid…now I have to question whether it’s a symptom of a larger overall character flaw.


Me: 31
WW: 30
married 5 yrs
Together 12 years
3yr A (PA & EA)
one DD, 3yrs old

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Chicago
stronger08
♂ Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 1:38 AM, July 5th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dude, bottom line is that you cant R with an unremorseful WS. Your WW just does not get it and I doubt she ever will. You really need to STOP this insanity now. You were holding up more than your fair share of the M before, during and after her A. And now she expects you to take the blame and do all the work trying to fix what SHE has broken. Remove yourself from the situation, take a good look at what has been going on, imagine it was happening to your best friend. What advice would you give him ? I'd bet my last dollar it would be to get the hell away from that toxic bitch. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5732 | Registered: Nov 2007
idontknowwhy5
♂ Member
Member # 42648
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, July 5th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow it sounds like your WW may be my WW's twin. Every MC session was her complaining about me and what I was or had done wrong, and talking herself up as the ideal mother and wife. She even equated later my filing for divorce without telling her I was filing to a dishonesty and betrayal with equivalence to her having an affair with a man she knew was married and had a child. Shed do anything to be the victim in any situation.


DDays- too many

Status - In D.


Posts: 90 | Registered: Mar 2014
tfkeel
♂ Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, July 5th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I’ve accepted that I married a narcissist. Has anyone on here had ANY luck getting through to someone like this? Getting them to own up to their share of the problems?

No. Like they say in NYC - fuhgetaboudit....

We moved into a house two hours away from my office because she liked the location

Kinda tells the whole story there, doesn't it?

I have to question whether it’s a symptom of a larger overall character flaw.

Interesting. You have to question, and, from reading your posts, I have no questions at all. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about her character.

I know you want her to be like you, able to own her shit and be an honest partner, willing to compromise and work on healing...but that would require her to be able to step outside of her own little self-centered universe, and her past behavior indicates this is extremely unlikely.

I lived with one of these "own little self-centered universe" people, too. There are very, very slim chances that this will ever change.

[This message edited by tfkeel at 9:58 AM, July 5th (Saturday)]


Posts: 527 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
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