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User Topic: Therapist Comment - Input Please
norabird
♀ Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If she won't go NC, get out of MC and into the lawyer's office.

You cannot stop your WW, you cannot get your Ww to examine your WW, but you cans how her the consequences of this behavior. That is frankly your only hope. And it may not even be enough. But at least it will save you.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4165 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
FrmrBH80124
♂ Member
Member # 42967
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stepping,

I'm so very sorry that you are dealing with this BS. I wouldn't put up with this crap. When I was younger maybe but I'm on old honery S.O.B. and wouldn't tolerate this level of disrespect. If my XW wanted to be with OM, then I would have left immediately.

May I ask why you are even attempting to R especially since she seems to show no remorse? This isn't your first rodeo. She isn't making you safe, not honoring NC and is still in an EA. Why haven't you filed? I understand you have young kids but I struggle to understand why you are still there.


ME - BH 45
Her - XWS 30
D - April 2010 - never looked back and good riddance.
Happily remarried!

Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are


Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2014
ageek1
♂ New Member
Member # 44073
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

steeppingup,

Sorry to read the threads. We went through a couple counselors because they would say she needed to stop communicating with the OM (it was an EA as far as I know - colleagues in different cities). The one counselor put it this way...if they are a friend, then there should be nothing to hide, you could invite them to dinner and have any conversation in front of your spouse. It went on for over a month after the first DD but I continued to find communications. He was persistent but she enjoyed the attention. If R is to work, then she needs to break it off.

As for the MC comment, she has a void that was provided by the OM (same in my case) and we are working on fixing it. I had a void too, but didn't have an A. It's best to work with your wife to find out what she was missing from you. The 5 Love Languages is a great book and it shed a lot of light on my situation. Clarify with the counselor and ensure it is clear.

There is no denying though, for you and your wife to R, she needs to end it, as hard as it is for her!


Posts: 39 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
steppingup
♂ Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

May I ask why you are even attempting to R especially since she seems to show no remorse? This isn't your first rodeo. She isn't making you safe, not honoring NC and is still in an EA. Why haven't you filed? I understand you have young kids but I struggle to understand why you are still there.

It is hard to explain, perhpas because I am exceedingly competitive, optomistic and generally think the best of people, that aside she says she is trying to get out of the fog and is very consistent with IC therapy. I told her time is running out on my patience. This is not her first affair, there is no doubt we are not equally yoked when it comes to emotional maturity. She says I'm nearly perfect, I guess the OM has the keys to her heart, that is really the only think I ever asked of her. Loyalty is paramout to me. Whether she goes or stays, she is still pondering this.

I think the biggest question is actually one which has not been asked yet but will come out in MC soon. The question is, if she actually goes NC do I really still want her? I think she can see that unasked question so she is keeping a foot on home base and a foot on 1st.

Time will tell if she strikes out or not. I know God is with me, the things I have endured only the supernatural could sustain.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 411 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
FrmrBH80124
♂ Member
Member # 42967
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stepping,

I understand your thoughts and I cannot imagine what you've gone through. I personally have a tough time quitting on anything. Like you I try to see the best in people and I'm generally very optimistic and hope for the best. When my XW cheated, I knew that there was no going back. I knew that she was self-centered and really only cared about herself. There was no way that I could continue in the relationship because it was broken once and for all. The ONS (that I know of) was the final straw, the deal breaker.

Have you started the D process? There is no way that I would let my WW continue to stay in the marriage and have an EA and/or PA. I'm no ones second choice. Why haven't you thrown down the gauntlet once and for all? She is a serial cheater and has thrown your gift away twice!

You asked a great question in your last post. If she were to finally go NC, would you still want her? Do you think there is enough left to rebuild? Would you ever really be able to trust her? Is that really the kind of life that you think you deserve?

I'm not really in the pro-reconciliation crowd but I'm not in the pro-divorce crowd either so please don't assume or interpret that I'm saying you should divorce her. I believe everyone has to decide what they can and cannot live with. I do believe people can change. I only question if the WS really has the will, the courage and the desire to change. In my opinion, most people (WS and non WS) don't change unless they internalize the fact that they need to change. External pressures to change wayward behavior is rarely enough to effect substantive and meaningful changes on the wayward.


ME - BH 45
Her - XWS 30
D - April 2010 - never looked back and good riddance.
Happily remarried!

Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are


Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2014
steppingup
♂ Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Have you started the D process? There is no way that I would let my WW continue to stay in the marriage and have an EA and/or PA. I'm no ones second choice. Why haven't you thrown down the gauntlet once and for all? She is a serial cheater and has thrown your gift away twice!

Yes she has spit in the face of my forgiveness at least twice, i know she feels like a piece of crap, that is what the IC is getting out, and well A-holes do what A-holes do, they act it out. She called herself an A-hole to me multiple times, she knows what she is. Why not the gauntlet you ask, well I want a wife that wants to be a wife, i dont want to force her to do anything, she is free to go..I'll even pack the bags myself. My concern for D papers is that she will say, OK I give up, say she will do NC then simply be a covert cheater, I want to see if she wants the marriage for herself or not, she is going away soon to "find herself" upon her return we will see what she says, if she comes home with a "I am not sure", I will need to get a laywer.

You asked a great question in your last post. If she were to finally go NC, would you still want her? Do you think there is enough left to rebuild? Would you ever really be able to trust her? Is that really the kind of life that you think you deserve?

Rebuild, perhaps, trust...unclear. Is this what I deserve, OH F-NO!

I'm not really in the pro-reconciliation crowd but I'm not in the pro-divorce crowd either so please don't assume or interpret that I'm saying you should divorce her. I believe everyone has to decide what they can and cannot live with. I do believe people can change. I only question if the WS really has the will, the courage and the desire to change.


No, I told her in MC that I dont think she has the courage to do what she wants to (either go NC or Leave). That is part of her cheater lifestyle, instead of telling me she has issues with he marriage it is easier for her to find someone else to fill the gaps, she doesn't have to confront what she doesn't like. Well what is funny is the AP wants her, but he has no idea who she is, he only sees the shiny happy WW, not the one that crawls out of the bed in the morning, the one that snaps at the kids, etc. No, he is cluelss too.

In my opinion, most people (WS and non WS) don't change unless they internalize the fact that they need to change. External pressures to change wayward behavior is rarely enough to effect substantive and meaningful changes on the wayward
.

You are likely right, but I love the fact that God gave us FREE WILL. I want to see her FREE WILL towards our marriage or away from it. I want it to be genuine or not at all. If I cannot have her heart, then I dont want part of it. that is my standard, that is what I will enforce.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 411 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
Tom67
♂ Member
Member # 42664
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tell her you can't control her but you can control what you will put up with.
Until there is genuine remorse and no contact you don't have a chance.

Posts: 221 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
steppingup
♂ Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RE: TOM, you are correct sir, 100%.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 411 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
FrmrBH80124
♂ Member
Member # 42967
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My only thought was that I think its time for her to step up and make a decision. At the end of the day she still has free will as you aren't taking that away. She may complain that you aren't giving her a choice but that isn't correct and she knows that. We complain that we "have no choice" when what we really mean is that we don't want to make a decision.

Every day that she contacts AP she makes a choice. Every day that she chooses to remain in limbo is a choice. All you are asking her to do is clearly state that she wants you and the marriage. Not a hard decision (at least it shouldn't be). If it is really that hard of a decision, then you have your answer. IMO this should be no F'ing brainer after everything you two have been through.

You are correct. AP gets the best version of her (ie best behavior WW). All of the pleasure no pain, crap, FOO issues, or unpleasantness. "She's perfect" so of course he's in "love" with her because she has no flaws. We all know that is complete and utter BS.

Wishing the best for you in this very crappy situation. Strength brother!


ME - BH 45
Her - XWS 30
D - April 2010 - never looked back and good riddance.
Happily remarried!

Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are


Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2014
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow - so much in one thread!!

The other day in MC, the therapist said, “Steppingup well, if you cannot give your wife what she needs (even though she will not clearly state what it is), she will simply go out and cheat on your again.

I would find a new therapist. This one is not experienced enough in adultery. I will prove that in a moment.

I asked my WW what she thought of that statement, she said she didn’t agree with it.

Of course she doesn't agree that she'll cheat again. She is still cheating!! She hasn't stopped, ever. In order for there to be an 'again', she would have to stop cheating.

The MC is my WW personal counselor not mine.

This quack should not be left alone with a woman that won't accept responsibility for cheating, and won't stop cheating. The 'IC' has basically stopped trying to work with your wife to get to the root of the behavior, and is now just telling you that you need to be responsible because she has no clue what is wrong with your wife.

The first session was a blood bath, she felt like a caged animal. The MC asked me how angry I was, she baited me to show my WW. I screamed at the top of my lungs, RAGE old unprocessed RAGE came out, it was much to experience, both the MC and my WW started to cry.

I said I would prove her inexperience. Actually, you have proven it with this post. If IC cried because she couldn't believe the rage and pain you had inside due to the infidelity, then she's clueless. Any therapist that understands affairs would have known exactly what to expect. This woman cried. How professional. Please, stop using her and tell your wife that she needs a new, competent IC.

Most of the meeting my WW refused to speak and I keep filling the empty space with how I was feeling. My WW is challanged to take responsibility for this, which is slowing down this process much. We are 4 months into this new affair and basically we have gotten nowhere. Its sickening.

You're getting nowhere because, despite this 'therapist's' willingness to take your money for both MC and WW's IC, she is incompetent. She should be leading, not having you fill space. She sees your wife often enough - and she's clueless. Right now, I think you're wasting time and money on this woman. She's not helping, and she's not leading. She's not equipped to deal with infidelity, and she continues to prove that to you.


1Faith: That continutes to be the issue, the OM is still the confidant and someone she is having an EA with (perhaps PA but she says absolutely not)...who knows, right?

As long as OM is a part of her life in any way, you are not just wasting your time, you're making things worse. You sticking around as she continues to cheat is sending the message that there are no consequences for her cheating. She can have her boyfriend and her marriage. What's the incentive for a selfish active wayward to change? She's got everything right now.

I was arguing with her last night she wants to see a new me..a new me? what about me? how can I heal and want to be connected to someone who will not let go? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Hysterical. Truly, I'm sorry - but it's laughable that an active cheater would argue that YOU need to change. I can't believe you participated in this conversation. It's extremely insulting to you.


She needs the IC I will keep going to IC. But yes the point of MC, which was her idea makes little sense unless she wants to have an open marriage which I think is BULL SHIT, and I will not tolerate it.

Respectfully, you're tolerating it now. It's been 4 months. You're absolutely tolerating an open marriage. You're not happy about it, and she knows that, but you are tolerating it.


She is trying hard to have her cake and eat it too. The OM makes her feel good about herself and she limits how I can make her feel since she is getting ego kibble from the hands of a home wrecker Ahole. I think she has a distrubance like NPD or such, perhaps a sociopath...

She isn't trying to have her cake and eat it too - she is having her cake and eating it too.

Have you always thought she was NPD or ASPD, or is this strictly because of the affair? Every person in an affair acts extremely selfish and without empathy. It's part of the affair.

If she won't go NC, get out of MC and into the lawyer's office.
You cannot stop your WW, you cannot get your Ww to examine your WW, but you cans how her the consequences of this behavior. That is frankly your only hope. And it may not even be enough. But at least it will save you.

This is 100% correct. Every word.

It is hard to explain, perhpas because I am exceedingly competitive, optomistic and generally think the best of people, that aside she says she is trying to get out of the fog and is very consistent with IC therapy. I told her time is running out on my patience. This is not her first affair, there is no doubt we are not equally yoked when it comes to emotional maturity. She says I'm nearly perfect, I guess the OM has the keys to her heart, that is really the only think I ever asked of her. Loyalty is paramout to me. Whether she goes or stays, she is still pondering this.

Respectfully - this is all bullshit. She's saying what will get you to stay while she keeps her boyfriend. And competitive? This is your life. This isn't a competition. I'm not sure if you're serious with this or not.

I think the biggest question is actually one which has not been asked yet but will come out in MC soon. The question is, if she actually goes NC do I really still want her? I think she can see that unasked question so she is keeping a foot on home base and a foot on 1st.

This isn't even an issue right now. You cannot nice her back. You cannot be the understanding guy, going to therapy and working with her on this. It never works, ever. Not ever. NOT EVER. Until she goes NC, you should not be worried about her in the slightest. You should be worried about only you. She is showing you that you aren't important enough even to NOT have a boyfriend. Why are you concerned with her at all? She's been cheating on some level since 2001. Why are you giving her any attention at all?

Yes she has spit in the face of my forgiveness at least twice, i know she feels like a piece of crap, that is what the IC is getting out, and well A-holes do what A-holes do, they act it out. She called herself an A-hole to me multiple times, she knows what she is.

No - she knows that if she doesn't act like she feels bad, you'll walk. She wants you to believe she feels like crap and thinks herself an A-hole. If she actually felt like crap and like an A-hole, she would stop. If you do something that makes you feel like crap, and like an A-hole, what do you do? Do you insist that you get to keep doing it?

Sorry - but cheaters lie. She's lying. She's probably lying even to herself, but she does not feel like crap. She's a pro at this - she's been doing it for 13 years. Feels like crap? You know better. You want to believe her because you want her to be who you thought she was, but she isn't being honest and she isn't the person she's portrayed to you all these years. She's been hiding a large part of her life for 13 years. She's very good at lying and at getting you to believe her. She's actively cheating. You cannot believe a word she says - only her actions. Her actions tell you and the world she doesn't feel like crap, and she certainly doesn't feel like an A-hole.

Why not the gauntlet you ask, well I want a wife that wants to be a wife, i dont want to force her to do anything, she is free to go..I'll even pack the bags myself.

You can't force her to do a thing, as is being proven. The gauntlet isn't you demanding she stop. It's you deciding not to play her twisted game any longer. Right now, she has both you and OM. She has no reason to actually decide. If you make it clear that she is free to do as she likes, and you are free to not accept a wife with a boyfriend, she'll make her decision. It may be you, it may not, but she'll decide. The longer you try to 'work this out' the more she's feeling empowered. She is desperate for attention - hence the affairs, right? Boy - look at all the attention she's getting now! IC, MC, husband that wants her, OM that wants her - she's a rockstar!

You need to stop this. Stop being an option for her. When you don't care - when no one is going to MC to 'discuss all of her issues', when she can't run to OM to get more kibbles, when she isn't discussing HER needs and HER wants with you, and she'll left with just herself and her poor choices, THAT is when she'll start acting like someone that needs to grow up. Without all the attention, she's just her. She'll figure herself out when there is no one left.

And don't think for a second OM will suffice. He could be anyone, as she proved when OM #1 bailed. She just moved on. She wants the attention, and you're shoveling it at her as fast as you can.

Take away her options. If she wants to be a wife, she will be.


My concern for D papers is that she will say, OK I give up, say she will do NC then simply be a covert cheater, I want to see if she wants the marriage for herself or not,

Have you read the 180? What about what YOU want? Why do you care more about what she wants than what you want? You want a faithful wife, right? If she's telling you with actions that she won't do that, then do what is right for YOU.


she is going away soon to "find herself" upon her return we will see what she says, if she comes home with a "I am not sure", I will need to get a laywer.

This is exactly what she'll come back with. Why does she need to go away? OMG - the drama this WW has created is sickening. She needs to find herself? So all her IC and MC isn't enough?


No, I told her in MC that I dont think she has the courage to do what she wants to (either go NC or Leave). That is part of her cheater lifestyle, instead of telling me she has issues with he marriage it is easier for her to find someone else to fill the gaps
,

Sadly - she is doing exactly what she wants. She doesn't have issues with the M. She just has issues. She's an attention whore. She's a serial cheater. She wants attention, and whether its good attention or bad, she just wants attention. She's had 13 years to leave if the M was bad. OM#1 left because he was tired of waiting for her. She strung him along for 11 years. Now she's stringing you along. She wants this attention, this feeling of someone fighting for her. OM#1 did it. OM#2 wants her. Now you're fighting for her. She won't stop on her own. Someone is going to have to walk away. She's proven that if OM walks, she'll just get another OM. After 11 years, OM#1 didn't matter. The attention did. She doesn't want OM#2 either. She's hit the jackpot now - you know, and YOU want her. Now both men know of the other, and both are willing to wait for the poor princess to decide.

The ONLY way you get your wife to own this, to work toward change, and to be remorseful is to make her feel that she is losing something here, and that if SHE doesn't change, her life will change. If you wait for her, she won't change. Even if she decides to end it with OM#2, she'll act like you've won some prize because she chose you and the M. Is that the wife you want?

Worse - the second things don't meet her expectations, she'll get another OM. She will have learned absolutely NOTHING because she was treated like she was the prize, and is so wonderful that all men will wait for her.


she doesn't have to confront what she doesn't like. Well what is funny is the AP wants her, but he has no idea who she is, he only sees the shiny happy WW, not the one that crawls out of the bed in the morning, the one that snaps at the kids, etc. No, he is cluelss too.


This is sad. This woman has you so twisted that you find it funny (in a disturbed way, but you still find it comical) that her boyfriend doesn't really know her. HER BOYFRIEND. There is nothing funny about the fact that your wife has a boyfriend.

Sorry this is long - but I really, really hope you understand. She won't change. She won't see her actions as wrong. You yourself called her a child, and you find her immature. How do you deal with immature people, since they don't actually understand that their actions have consequences? You show them that actions have consequences. So far, she's had none.

You cannot believe her words. Remember this, please. Her actions tell you everything. I wouldn't be surprised to find out OM is going on this trip with her, or at least will be there for part of it. If not, she'll be seeking attention from men that are around.

Steppingup, please - read the 180. Understand it's for you. Your wife is treating you horribly, and if you continue down this path, that won't change. I know you think this is different - everyone that finds themselves here does - but we soon learn that there are only a handful of stories to be told regarding infidelity. Your story is far more common than you think, and the outcome if you don't start respecting yourself will be the same as we've seen hundreds of times.

Read the 180. Don't accept less than you deserve, which is a faithful wife. Don't demand she stop seeing OM. Just demand that anyone that gets your affection actually deserve it. She doesn't - and she shouldn't be getting it.

There are only a handful of stories. The details may be different, but in general, just a few. Yours ends one of two ways:

You remove yourself as an option, and your wife is forced to make some change - either she wakes up, realizes it's NOT ok to have a boyfriend, and starts actually working on herself and the marriage, or..;.

You continue to wait and try to 'understand' and 'not force her because you want to be sure it's what she wants' and any other reason you can find to wait this out. She doesn't change, and her respect for you dwindles quickly - very quickly. After all, what man lets his wife cheat? She becomes embolden, less worried about your feelings, and eventually she leaves.

There are a lot of men on this site that did what you're doing. They're in 'divorce and separation' now. I'm not exaggerating. I know of one man that waited and it worked out - after nearly a year. Every other man that 'thought he knew his wife better than SI' ended up wondering what happened to their life, and to their wife, because the cruel woman they now saw was NOT the woman they knew.

All the stories are here if you care to read a bit. If you don't respect yourself, she won't.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
steppingup
♂ Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To "PainfulPast", I'm a bit speachless, you have the honesty I really need right now, and to prove it, putting it into action.

Most of what you say, is right out of my IC mouth. I'm cancelling my MC appointment now, and will be sleeping in the spare bedroom starting tonight. I've got to end this F--edupness.

I'm printing out your post, I will mediate on each comment you've made. There is no doubt your wisdom on the subject is quite excellent.

BEST PART:

Read the 180. Don't accept less than you deserve, which is a faithful wife. Don't demand she stop seeing OM. Just demand that anyone that gets your affection actually deserve it. She doesn't - and she shouldn't be getting it.

IT ENDS

Many regards, Stepp.

[This message edited by steppingup at 4:06 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 411 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
Topic Posts: 31
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