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User Topic: Does it end?
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Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I agree with Lark. Don't expect to get anything from her phone or computer when you announce you want to see it. if you can't access it remotely whenever you want that is useless now that she knows how important it is.

I also strongly agree the AP would not be continuing to contact her if he was getting silence or no response. This is underground. Count on it.

Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
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Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A couple of thoughts that came to mind when reading your posts…

We often compare infidelity to addictions like alcoholism. One of the benefits of this comparison is that usually we have a hard time understanding infidelity, but we probably know someone that’s in AA or is a drunk…
Basically what got your wife into this mess wasn’t the OM per se but the emotional spot he hit in her. Chances are it was some form of validation; he made her feel smart, young, beautiful, interesting… Sort of like an alcoholic doesn’t drink a bottle of vodka before lunch just because it tastes good – but rather because it makes him feel… different.

Ask any recovering alcoholic and he will tell you that getting sober is easy. It’s remaining sober that’s so hard. I kind of think – based on what you post – that your wife isn’t in organized or intentional contact with the OM. In that sense the affair is “over”. But she’s like an alcoholic that comes home from rehab, throws away all his booze but keeps that one special bottle of prime cognac… Probably with no intent whatsoever to drink it.
And she might look at the bottle every now and then. She might even open it and sniff… And these actions they sort of confirm that she misses drinking… Your wife might not be in active infidelity but it still sounds as if she’s in inactive infidelity.

Statistically a person that has cheated once is more likely to cheat again than someone that has never cheated. By a factor of 5… Once again back to the alcoholic comparison then in a typical rehab center less than half are in their first treatment…

As long as she is holding on to OM – even in the “innocent” form of passively googling his house – she is looking at that bottle. She is sniffing that wine. And… chances are she will be an unhappy sober drunk or fall for temptation and have that forbidden sip.

So accountable NC is extremely important. Extremely.

I really don’t like it when we here on SI point out things that might needlessly add to the pain but there are some aspects in your WW actions that worry me.

Gently… She has admitted to kissing. Why didn’t it progress further? Has she told you in what conditions they kissed? In a hotel room, bar, conference area? You note yourself that it feels like she is hiding something…
If you were to discover the affair was more physical than she has admitted then how would that impact you? Think on that and if you are willing to progress then look into whether this affair was more physical than you think.

Frankly – if it was physical – that burden might be what your wife is hiding. Getting it into the open can be beneficial and the key to recovery.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

Posts: 5567 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bigger, thanks for the post as it made a lot of sense. Things she says don't make sense to me as it's over and he's over it and has moved on, but if he has, why text her?

As for the kiss, it was during a conference, the team had all been drinking in a "party room" he walked her to her room, he kissed her outside of it and she stopped it and that was it. She said she wasn't ready to do anything with him and "do that to me". She did say at one time she wouldn't let him come into her room because she was afraid he wouldn't leave if he did.

At a recent conference, she was walking with another colleague and he needed to get something from his room, so they stopped and he said come in for a sec, she didn't and she told me because she felt uncomfortable doing that and if someone saw or heard about it.

She has referred to him a loser who probably only wanted one thing from her. She loved the attention and the chance to talk to someone about work, food, music, etc...things that a married couple don't have time or the energy to do most times.

I'm not convinced it's underground...she blocked his name on her personal email, also on Linkedin and Facebook. I have checked her computer when she left it unlocked once and saw nothing in the browser history or emails, same with her phone one time. She does have to work with him,even though they are on different teams based on demographics and has told me she had to call him for something as well as a group text that was going around.

Do I feel there was something physical and more than the kiss the one time they were together at the conference, I think yes as her responses and actions suggest it. I think my dilemma is not to be able to live with not knowing 100% if they did or not.

He's not over her...he's a predator and prick and preys on the situation throwing enough shit at a wall and hoping some of it sticks. She had a few email exchanges with him by email (one thread) last year and I was livid, she was crushed and thought it was the end. She refers to it now that she fell for his bait and kicks herself for it.

Back to the PA...we see MC and I was seeing an IC and she was as well but we both stopped the IC. Originally my IC always came back to me and said what is the one question I'm looking for...there is usually one! For me I think the question is if it was P at the conference and it is to be part of our MC session.

Thanks again!

Posts: 39 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
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Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bigger is right affair sex is a high it releases brain chemicals like cocaine it is a rush.
Some women go from one man to another chasing that high.
Really sad.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How many conferences does she go to in a year?
Is om at them also.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tom67 The conferences depends, usually 2-4 and yes he would likely be at most. The first conference after DD and she ended it, she told him only work related contact and she was working on her marriage. She was in a g/f's room with some others and she told me he emailed her to see if she was still awake. Stupid her replied yes. So then he text her his room number. She told me he also approached her at the coffee/lunch table and asked if they could talk and she told him no. We have had the conversation that I found it hard to believe she never talked to him about the relationship and her wanting to end it. She said besides the politeness in meetings and group functions, she ignored him.

Because the industry and they work together there had to be contact at times. He applied for a position that would make him her boss, my W freaked out and they talked as she was afraid it would affect her job. He never did get the position.

Posts: 39 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
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Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you cannot get answer in MC about PA you might want to consider hiring PI at next conference. He will not be able to get in private meeting rooms but will see if they are off at bar together.

Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
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Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've followed this since it started and I really feel for you because I know you want to believe that it never made it to a PA. We all wanted to believe that very same thing. I hope and pray that we are all wrong on the assumption because I don't know your wife and only you can decide for yourself. I will say that I've read this story a thousand times on this site, not this exact one but ones just like it and the person generally comes back and says "well it's official they were having a PA". I'm not trying to wish this on you man I just want you to protect yourself and learn the truth so you can make a sound decision for your future and not waste a minute more in false reconciliation.

Liars lie and cheaters cheat, that's what they do and they all do it pretty well. Well enough to fool the ones they supposedly love so much so they can get just one more hit of the OM/OW. They play on the emotions of others with their tears and other things and will do anything to have you believe otherwise. They are in every sense of the word "Addicts" can't be trusted. If I had the money I'd gladly hire you a PI so you'd know for sure one way or the other. Keep your wits about you and find our for sure what the truth is. Not her truth but the truth. Give yourself your sanity back, get your balls out of her purse, hire a PI and find out what's really going on and put this to an end.

I don't mean to offend you man but I've been there in your shoes, hell we all have in one way or another. It's time to drop the hammer down on this.

Me: BH 32years old DDay 4-29-13
Her: WW 33 years old
“Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard
Some do it with a bitter look
Some with a flattering word
The coward does it with a kiss
The brave man with a sword”

Posts: 627 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Houston, Texas
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Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you make some good coin get a PI.
Personally when she told you you couldn't have access to her electronics that would have been the end for me.
I hope everything works out.
Keep working on contacting his w do NOT tell your wife.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A geek,
As a woman I can tell you that I would do anything to keep my husband from feeling pain. He cheated... I didn't so I don't understand the mentality. I do understand that now that he's truly remorseful he will now go above and beyond so I am not in pain. She isn't doing this for you. She needs a wake up call. IMHO you need to be prepared to leave for a while and let her stew in this mess. Ending the marriage isn't the worst possible outcome. Living this over and over is worse.

BW - 49
WH - 50
Married 30 years
Beautiful Son, Daughter and 2 Grandsons.

OW - multiple, just found out about ALL of them, Husband coming out of years of fog due to multiple childhood and military events.

Hopeful but cautious

Posts: 194 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Texas
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Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BlueBlueEyes has a point.
Take a long weekend or a few days whenever go away BUT leave 2 vars in the house with long life lithium batteries and of course one in her car.
You may get some answers one way or another.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 9:41 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm afraid because she is remorseful, wants to move on, so if I draw the line in the sand, the marriage ends for what?

What makes you think that she is remorseful? What is your definition of remorse?

Go and get Not Just Friends. Let her know that you have it. Then wait. What she does after she knows that the book is at your house will give you an idea of where her thinking is at.

Do you think that she will grab that book up, and read it from cover to cover in a few days? Or will it just gain dust unless (1) you are reading it, or (2) you have to "force" her to read it?

Her action(s), or lack thereof, will speak volumes.

Remember, empathy is a HUGE part of remorse. I just haven't seen any in your posts. There is a big difference between your WW being lost in finding out how to help you, versus being selfish and pouty when you are hurting. Maybe this will change, but maybe not. I would definitely call her out on her behavior. If you are afraid of losing a marriage over this, then what are you really fighting for?

2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 22yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D

Posts: 2117 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
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Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It took 3 days for me to find all the truth of my wife's affair. Supposedly nothing happened. They were just friends and he was flirting by texting. A few weeks before she slept on his couch. She was at a gathering a few hours from our house and his wife had offered to let her sleep on their couch. I demanded that she call her so I could confirm. She resisted and finally told me his wife was not their but they did kiss. The next day she confessed to sleeping with him. Long storey short. She did not want me to contact his wife because his wife had found out about their affair 6 months prior but did not tell me.
You need to scan her phone and tell his wife. She may know something. If your wife truly loves you and you were wrong, she will forgive you. If you don't dig deep on this your life is going to be hell . I blew off hunches early on in their affair. I did not want to be the jealous type and cause trouble. I will never let that happen again. Go with your gut. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission


Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: Michigan
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Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Count me as another guy who saw just 'a kiss' at one conference turn into PA over 5 conferences.

Look, she may indeed want you and the marriage. The NC and transparency says a lot.

She may not be acting as remorseful as one might expect because she is sick with the secret. Plus, like my WW, she may be in a state if denial, where due to shame she is trying to pretend it didn't happen.

I agree that if it was a PA then the truth will set both you AND her free.

I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 895 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Mountain West
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Default  Posted: 6:09 AM, July 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MAYBE… just MAYBE it was only a kiss at a conference.

When attending a course on procedures in police investigations one of my instructors often used a quote that went something like “when you hear the beating of hooves you think horses, not zebras”.
With it he was warning about two things: Sometimes the obvious clues lead to the obvious conclusion. The clue gives you a clear start to how to investigate and progress, BUT you always had to have an open mind to the other options.
For example: If two people were suspected of a crime and one was a nun while the other was a known gang-member with a past of comparable crimes then it would obviously make sense to check him out first.
It’s the same with your wife. That “kiss at a conference”… that’s the beating of hooves and most of us are expecting horses – not zebra’s.

The MAIN reason I think there is more going on is how you describe that she seems to be holding something back. From the data you provide I’m assuming it’s something more that happened and me being a BS I simply assume (like we all do) that it’s that the affair went further physically. But that’s just us waiting for the horses…

Realistically it could be something completely different. It could be that they spent more time together but no sex. Had a picnic by the lake or skipped an afternoon at a conference to take a long walk. Or that she promised him more than she’s letting you know. Or that this isn’t her first affair. Or it could be that she and OM went at it like rabbits at every chance they got. You don’t know.
All I know is that I am fairly certain that your marriage can’t survive and thrive with a potential elephant sitting between you two.

NOTE before I go on so I don’t forget this: There is ALWAYS the possibility we are wrong and that there isn’t ANYTHING missing. But the info we have indicates otherwise.

How are your communications?
Do you think this is something you can broach in MC?
How would discovering more affect you or impact your will to reconcile?
Do you think you have enough to reconcile or do you too think you need the total and absolute truth in order to reconcile?

To me the key here is twofold: Make her feel safe in telling the truth and make the consequences of the truth better (or less damaging) than the consequences of keeping the secret.

I would suggest the following:
Tell her that you are getting tired of you two trying to reconcile and improve the marriage as two opposing forces, as two people sitting on the opposite sides of a negotiations table.
Tell her that you think you two deserve the best marriage possible. That it requires a lot of work from both of you but you are willing to do that work, both on an individual level and together.
Point out that the simple fact you are there, in the marriage and working for it, is an immense statement of your commitment considering that she had an affair.
Tell her you want the marriage to be based on TRUTHS. That any millstone that either of you carry around will eventually surface and cause more damage than if you two got rid of it now.
And then tell her that your issue is that you are certain there are things missing from her story. That you need a sense of the truth being on the table for your marriage to progress.

Offer her total amnesty. This is a key. No matter WHAT she says you will work with her as a husband and with the intent of saving the marriage.

It’s not unconditional per se. She can’t tell you she intends to meet and be with OM while being married to you. It’s unconditional in the sense that no matter what she says about her past then as long as she’s meeting basic conditions and commits to the marriage you aren’t going to file or move out or whatever if she shares her truths.

Offer that she can tell her story with an intermediary. Offer that she can write it all down. But assure her that even if it turns out that she met OM for sex yesterday then AS LONG AS SHE MEETS YOUR BASIC CONDITIONS FROM THE MOMENT SHE DECIDES TO COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE… you won’t file or kick her out or decide not to work on the marriage. That no matter what then you will give the marriage a chance.

OK – I’m not so blind to think that if she told you something significant it can shake your world and alter your commitment. But the price of getting the truth is that you give it a try anyway. That you don’t go with your first possible reaction but will try to appreciate the honesty and truth.

Finally and once again: Although most of us expect horses round that bend then just maybe this is the day the circus comes to town and it will be zebra’s for a change!

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, July 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


As usual Bigger has given you good advice. I will add that I believe there is more you do not know. Your wife may not be underground but she is obviously making excuses to stay in touch with this guy by responding to him every time he contacts her. She must be or it would not continue.
At the conferences, she always seems to have some dumb excuse as to having contact like when he texted her to see if she was still awake, and she responded. How does an educated adult woman keep responding to a man she had an affair with knowing he wants in her pants again and then she makes believe she was not thinking. I disagree. She is thinking and by making like it was just some dumb oversight it hopefully makes you accept it.
You are in the unfortunate position of her being at the same out of town location with this predator 2 or 4 times a year for days. If it has not already happened again it will because quite frankly she has not shut him down with vigor.
Your marriage will never recover if she stays in this job and you do not totally believe her and how can you right now.
You are going to have to do something to force this issue and if lie detector is out of question you better do what Bigger just suggested.
MC is a waste of time until you resolve this issue or else you just suck it up and hope. If you look at the results of other men on this forum that have done that, your odds are not good

Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
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Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, July 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see you have three primary orders of business:

1. Inform the BW. I know you sent a message and tried to friend her but the message went straight to her "other" box if you didn't pay a dollar (in USD). No one checks the "other" box. And why would she accept a friend request from you. She would probably ask her husband do you know this ageek1 fellow?

Don't you dare leave this hanging. She needs to know. Besides even if your WW story is true, this guy is still a major sleeze.

2. Get the truth from her. Figure it out. She's acting exactly like my FWW before the big admission. I printed up 10 questions and had her answer them. They were all yes or no and then she gave it to me. Then we sat down and I told her she had full amnesty at this moment only, if evidence ever comes to light that you lied on any of these, I would leave. She could change her answer now and only now. That's when she told me she slept with the looser.

3. Insist that she is open and honest. No you don't trust her, why are you afraid to tell her that? Tell her of course you trust her. My FWW had two EA/PAs. If I insisted on openness and honesty after the first one it would have only been one.

BH, 35, CoD, Military...sober since 6/17/14
FWW, EA/PA (x2) different OM coworkers
Reconciling since 8/1/13
100% ready to file at next dealbreaker...don't test me.

Posts: 209 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: NoVA
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Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Bigger, that is great advice.

I'm afraid while on holidays I found a calling card. It hadn't been used for over a month but again there were lies to the extent of the calls, when they started and when she bought the card. She is adamant that she only used it to talk as friends and she stopped it a month ago when she realized friends was not possible. I have shot down her excuses and rationalization for her actions and this frustrates her.

When we got back from the trip, she became defensive and argumentative every time I tried to discuss it...and I admit I attacked her, but how could I not. So a couple days later I packed a bag and said to tell the kids I was going out of town for work. She begged me to come back and we haven't talked much about it the last week or so. She has agreed to an extra MC session this week and I agreed not to leave. She started reading How to help your spouse get over your affair and has tried to talk with me...some of it productive some not so much. This was the last straw and I don't care if it was friends or not, it is unacceptable. I have my list of what I will accept and what I won't.

Blue Eyes and Bigger, thank you. Perhaps the guilt is just too strong for her and it wasn't a PA, and the noise could truly be zebras....I can only hope as I really don't know if I can live with the knowledge if it was horses.

Posts: 39 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
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Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In some situations you have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it.
With you ready to walk out she knew you were serious.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

maybe i am not understanding this... but i am getting strong hints of secrecy still going on with calling cards and her demand of privacy.

I am sorry, if there is any reconciling to happen, total transparency... the wayward gave up privacy for a time because the commodity we are dealing with in infidelity is trust.. which needs to be earned and cannot be compromised on... i read early that you made "agreements" .... ???

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