but to me the "start over" comment sounded like a request to rugsweep
Starting over can be a forewarning as there are more truths to come. But again, there can be no starting over without knowing what the hell it is you are forgiving her for.
It is hard enough to understand what other people's words mean all of the time, so starting over could mean rugsweeping, but to me it sort of means let bygones be bygones. That is all about forgiving. And you first have to know what it is you are forgiving.
Starting over is wonderful, get back to the way we felt at first. Starting over and moving on are great. But that cannot happen when there are lies, untold feelings and gripes. It all has to be aired out in order to start over.
There could be more to her story or not. It is hard to tell at this time, she seems she really needs to talk to you at this time, and I think you need to find the time to let her tell you whatever it is.
Craig and the others are right. She's trying to rug sweep and I think she's testing your boundaries to gauge if you will go along with it. Good job keeping your foot down on the matter and forcing her to face this issue.
Find out if her boss is married. Look for him on facebook, call the workplace and just ask anyone who picks up the phone and just say "I just want to confirm the martial status of joe-blo" and maybe they'll unintentionally volunteer hours wife's name right there. But don't tell your WW you are doing this. She'll just contact him and give him a heads up, then they get their story straight. Heck, she may have already done that.
One thing for you to reflect on though.
I think the "iron is hot" in your situation right now because she is VERY unsure of your feelings and plans.
I understand the tired feeling you talked about, but I feel you missed a GOLDEN opportunity to get the full truth (or most of it) out of her.
I understand you comforting and assuring her, but if she starts to feel secure again, she will probably go back to TT'ing you because she will be afraid of returning to a state of insecurity if you find out the full truth.
Be honest with yourself, are you avoiding the conversation and truth because you fear knowing everything (BS's can really damage themselves and their recovery chances by living in denial).
Look at what Dyokemm wrote above.
It is really important that you not just gloss over this observation. I felt the same way after reading your responses to your wife. While you do seem very aware of your current reality, do NOT underestimate the power of fear. It can make us hesitate; it can make us hold onto shreds of hope; it can lead us to make poor decisions.
If this is not the case, then disregard it completely. But if there is a shred of truth, then you really need to look at this closer. Dealing with your wife...and her apparent willingness to talk right now...should be done as soon as possible. The more comfortable that she gets with your commitment to the marriage, the further that she will shield these feelings. You have the unenviable task of not only letting her know that the marriage is at risk, but somehow convincing her that the only REAL chance for success is to be honest. And you also have to be honest with yourself. Are you prepared to accept the possibility of much deeper secrets?
The saying goes--"pray for sunshine, but prepare for rain".
All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D
My wife and I talked for over four hours last night. She initiated the conversation after dinner and our son had gone to bed as he had to work very early this morning.
I got the truth about the texting, as she swore on her kids. I BELIEVE everything she said. I know some of you will say "maybe" but my vote is the only one that counts and I choose to believe. Not because I desperately want to stay married to her, but because I was there and watching her. Besides, I will/would have ended it had she lied. I told her that before she started.
We also addressed other issues that each of us had held in for far too long. We both agreed that communication and lack thereof has been our number one problem. We used to talk about everything and anything and in the last year, not much about not much. Some of this is job related....both have high stress jobs with longer than normal hours, but we are both going to work on this together.
In the end, your advice was the catalyst for this discussion, so I thank you. Basically, in some respects, I instituted a psuedo 180 and was rather cold for a couple of weeks. One of you, sorry don't remember which one, pointed out that now was the time to get to the truth, as she was afraid of my intentions.... she admitted she was scared that I was contemplating ending our marriage.
Today, though we are far from healed and it will be some time until we are, I know that she wants what I want, to grow old together. I know that she loves me and only me.
Understand, I would not allow any "rugsweeping" and though I prepared for rain, the actual truth was more like sunshine. We slept together after our talk (not sex)like we used to; not on opposite sides of the bed. For both of us, even with the limited hours of sleep, we were well rested when the dawn came. For me, best nights sleep in many months.
Again, I thank all of you for your input and advice. I hope I can help even one of the other posters on here just a little as you have helped me. I would like to post every now and again to keep you updated.
I prepared for rain, the actual truth was more like sunshine.
So what was the truth? What was in all those texts that she kept deleting? Don't leave us hanging, man.
I am happy that both of you communicated in an open, honest manner.
Better yet; you both went to bed at the same time.
Way to go.
We have spent every night talking, touching, COMMUNICATING. Have not had the damn tv on since Monday night.
Anyway, DS went out of town with friends yesterday so we had last night all to ourselves. Made love(which was awesome), made dinner, talked for a while about us, then cuddled on the couch instead of her on the couch and me in my big chair. Both of us just enjoyed "being there" if that makes any sense at all. Not much more was said, she laid on my chest and we held hands. No TV, no lights, just us. It was great.
She thanked me this morning and I thanked her. We both know we have lots of work to do on the communication, but it has been so much better this week than the past 6 or 7 months and she is committed to it as am I.
- Did she ever look up ea's?
- Did she admit to having one?
- Did she own her behaviour or did she blame it on the breakdown of communication?
- What happens with her boss now? Will anything change?
So these are the red flags for me.
1. Originally you told us that her reaction to your concern over her relationship with her boss and your consequences for that relationship being separation, was disbelief that you would end your marriage over that. Well I say, who would even consider keeping a friendship over the welfare of their marriage?
2. She asked if you could start over, without even admitting anything. No one asks to start over on a 22 year marriage unless they know they have f'ed up majorly and are feeling a lot of guilt and hope it will all go away if only you could 'start over'!
3. You have this talk and you believe everything she says, and yes you are absolutely the only one that matters. But you are also the most likely person to be blindsided... How many people have you seen on here who swear they never knew anything that their ws told them over and over and they believed them, I include myself in this. In fact if my WH hadn't come to me and admitted everything (supposedly) 2 days later, I'd be blissfully ignorant that he had another affair 5 years before which started back up during his second. Unless you have proof, I mean physical proof and behaviour that matches words, then I'm sorry, your gut is usually right, and as betrayeds who are still deeply in love, we only really see what we want to and any explanation that fits MOST of what we saw, we tend to accept because the truth is scary.
4. Your wife and you seem to be happy and connecting now, which is lovely I am sure. But remember that affairs are not about sex most of the time, they are about stroking the ego, attention etc. Right now YOU are providing the ego kibble, the positive reinforcement etc. But what happens when you guys go through a rough patch again, which is likely to happen? Unless the her need for attention, affirmation etc is addressed and he understanding that getting it from someone outside the marriage is not healthy, THEN SHE WILL FALL INTO THIS TRAP AGAIN. And even if she was only on the "slippery slope" and nothing had happened yet, it could next time. This is something that needs to be addressed, and giving attention and finding one another again, whilst positive and necessary, is not going to do that. I'm sure I seem all doom and gloom etc but I have personal experience in this and I have been obsessive enough on this site for the past 6 months to see there are real warning signs here. They don't mean the end of your marriage, just make sure you fortify it, not pretend that this is an area not worth exploring because her explanation made sense and you guys started to communicate again.
Unless the her need for attention, affirmation etc is addressed and he understanding that getting it from someone outside the marriage is not healthy, THEN SHE WILL FALL INTO THIS TRAP AGAIN.
Even worse, when that next low point in the relationship occurs she thinks having an EA/PA is the way to kick start the "passion and romance" with you bbecauseyou are rewarding her wayward behavior, like it was a good thing to do to save the relationship. Yes, some think this. Even some MC and IC think and promote this bullshit.
Be wary. Be very, VERY, wary...
Please don't take these posts that are warning you of possible lies and deception as jaded attacks. While I am sure that everyone here hopes that you have the entire truth, the moral to this story is that the two of you need to work through this---by communication, and counseling...if possible. It is obvious that boundaries were crossed, and safeguards need to be put into place to prevent this from happening in the future. And while you most certainly would like to reconcile, you need to convince your wife that she will be at her safest, if she discloses everything...so the two of you can work on moving forward.
I am not saying that she is lying, or withholding any more information; I am merely saying that she needs to feel comfortable in telling you anything/everything. Believe me, you would much rather have her disclose something terrible right now, than to discover it on your own months or years down the road. This is the communication that we are preaching about. The two of you may just have avoided the largest crisis in your marriage---now is the time to learn from this.
Anyway vaca was good in one sense for US. She sensed I still was not "there" with her. Don't know how but she figured it out. I am a very early riser and one morning was on the screened in porch of our condo at 5am. Out she comes at 530. We talked for over 3 hours before kids started to move. Mostly good, but I did tell her that I was having second thoughts on our marriage. I am going to be traveling a ton over the next year, money is great so can't turn it down (early retirement looms I hope) She FREAKED out. I mean out and out in a lump on the floor. I got her calmed down and we discussed the A in my mind and my concerns with her being lonely while I travel.
WW (can't give her F yet) showed remorse, understanding that even though it was all innocent(yes I got the old texts and read them all) that she cheated me out of her time and had an emotional connection with her boss beyond work and inane family bullshit.
I believe we will make it but what happens will happen and I will not make promises I can't keep I sense that she is all in, but she also knows it is still a long road...no rugsweeping here!
The rest of vacation and the past weekend were great, so we will see how it goes. Back on a plane tomorrow nite! Shit!