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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: A Big Fight Yesteday (I'm still in a daze.)
Wodnships
Member
Member # 42750
Default  Posted: 9:45 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know all couples fight, but things seem to take on such a different tone for me now. I really don't understand why everything has to be such huge explosion with my wife. She's really been getting better, but she's been under some stress at work and we just had one of our fights that we used to have only worse.

The whole thing started over the fact that I left some chap stick in the pocket of one of my pants. It was an honest enough mistake. They are light and small and I can't always feel them in my pocket. Sometimes they get missed. Well, she did laundry and had to redo a load because of it. She spent the day snippy and withdrawn. (although she seemed snippy and withdrawn even before she started laundry.) When she finally decides to tell me what's going on she could have simply said "I'm frustrated because you left chap stick in your pants." But instead she comes at me with telling me how she feels like I'm a child.

It goes from there to how I don't love her, I don't care about her, I don't care about this relationship. (all from her.) Finally she says "Why do I even bother?" Normally this is the point where I'd walk away but for some reason I engaged yesterday and said "I don't know, why don't you call *AP maybe he can tell you." From there things only got worse and resulted in her throwing a bottle of soy sauce at my feet, breaking the bottle and sending soy sauce everywhere.

After she calmed down we couldn't talk about any of it with out her crying. This is a pattern with her. She gets mad decides I don't love her. Then takes it all way too far and when it's all over we can't talk about it because she's so busy tearing her self down.

I want to reconcile. I want to have the relationship I thought we had before. But right now I'm feeling like maybe it isn't possible. Maybe she's too broken and maybe I just can't let go. I mean throwing the affair in her face didn't serve any good purpose. And that isn't who I am. Or maybe it is now. It certainly wasn't who I was. She has to work late tonight and I'm home alone feeling lost and hopeless. I thought this would be the only place I could turn where people wouldn't think I was being over dramatic.


me: BH 35
Her: WW 28

Married 4 years. Dating 8. Living together 7.

If a man took his time on earth
to prove be for he died
what on man's life could be worth
I wonder what would happen to the world

- Harry Chapin


Posts: 497 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
Scubachick
♀ Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did she ever tell you what was really bothering her? It's not fair to start this big fight and say all these mean things and once she's not in her rage anymore turn the tears on so she doesn't have to deal with any of it. Did she apologize? It sounds like she was hurting and wanted to take it out on you.

Posts: 709 | Registered: Jul 2013
Wodnships
Member
Member # 42750
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She apologized, but no explanation. Like I said when I tried to talk about it it was all tears no answers. She did say it was all about the chap stick and she wasn't upset at all before that. I pointed out that every time we have a huge fight she's up set all day and then something small sets her off. But she says she doesn't know what was going on.


I forgot to add that she got in my face at one point and literally challenged me to hit her. I gently brushed her aside and walked past. The soy sauce followed.

Honestly I can't fix her. I'm more concerned with the fact that I played into. When I normally don't.


me: BH 35
Her: WW 28

Married 4 years. Dating 8. Living together 7.

If a man took his time on earth
to prove be for he died
what on man's life could be worth
I wonder what would happen to the world

- Harry Chapin


Posts: 497 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
MomtoRoses
♀ Member
Member # 42271
Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, I feel for you. We have lots of fights like that and I say stupid things about his ap's. I remember one day he wanted to skip counseling or something to can tomatoes from our garden and I screamed "why don't you have ap over and she can can tomatoes w you". That was 1 week post dday.


But what I don't understand us why is she saying you don't want to be with her when she is the one who cheated?? That makes no sense to me when you are the one reconciling w her. Is she in counseling??is she working on her feelings? Other than acting out in anger??

Sorry for your situation. There is so much pain.


i'm the bs
he is the wh.
7 ddays: affairs, online activities, ea, pa, longterm pa,longterm ea, one night stands.
I'm the last to know.

Posts: 85 | Registered: Jan 2014
hihn
♀ Member
Member # 43986
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like guilt reversal on her part, have you been monitoring her FB, Text messages, phone calls, or email lately? If not perhaps you should. If you have been monitoring them & she is coming up clean then she might be going thru affair withdrawals. As far as telling her "I don't know why don't you call AP maybe he can tell you", well that's just giving her tuff love. Did you feel that she loved you, cared about you or cared about your relationship while she had her affair. The fact that you have chosen to stay with her is evidence enough that you care. Perhaps the next time she starts telling you that you don't care you should tell her that the jury is still out on that one & you are still considering your options and her blowing up at you isn't in her favor. Sorry for being so cold, but what she is saying to you doesn't sound like true remorse on her part.


Me BS 58yo
Him WS 55yo, porno & sex addict
DD#1 1/28/14 co-worker#1 1991
DD#2 2/8/14 co-worker#2 9/13 - 4/14,he moved in with OW 3/9/14, moved out from OW 4/8/14
DD#3 4/10/14 22+ anonymous sex OW
Full disclosure 7/30/14 30+ sex parteners
TT is

Posts: 130 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: colorado
Wodnships
Member
Member # 42750
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She was in counseling but was released, and things have been better. Recently she's been having issues dealing with stress and I've been asking her about going back. She's non responsive.

I've checked her FB and phone. So unless she's using something else she isn't having an affair again. Believe me that's the first thing I thought of. Funny thing is it never crossed my mind before, now it's the first thought.

As far as the connection between her actions and the affair, I don't think they were caused by the affair. Truth is she's always been like this when she gets upset. Normally someone else does something to her and I have to deal with a blow up like this. It's been that way as long as I've known her. She's thrown things before. Trying to get me to hit her was new, but other then that there was nothing about this fight from her that I haven't heard 100 times before.

I think it's more likely that the same broken feelings that cause her to act this way lead her to the affair then they are about the affair. Then again maybe there have been multiple affairs for as long as we've been together and I just never found out until now.

I don't feel confident about anything right now.


me: BH 35
Her: WW 28

Married 4 years. Dating 8. Living together 7.

If a man took his time on earth
to prove be for he died
what on man's life could be worth
I wonder what would happen to the world

- Harry Chapin


Posts: 497 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
hihn
♀ Member
Member # 43986
Default  Posted: 11:10 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just want to add you telling her to ask her AP was nothing compared to what I had said to my WH in the beginning. On more than one occasion I told him that he & his AP were more alike then we were, that they deserved one another (to make one another miserable). I even offered to call her up for him so I could tell her I didn't want him, I don't want to live with a narcissistic Ahole, so I was going to give her what she wanted, him. Perhaps her being the narcissist that she was made her more qualified then me to cope with what they had done to me. My WH was absolutely mortified that I would even consider doing such a thing. I wasn't just considering it, I was ready, willing and able to do it.


Me BS 58yo
Him WS 55yo, porno & sex addict
DD#1 1/28/14 co-worker#1 1991
DD#2 2/8/14 co-worker#2 9/13 - 4/14,he moved in with OW 3/9/14, moved out from OW 4/8/14
DD#3 4/10/14 22+ anonymous sex OW
Full disclosure 7/30/14 30+ sex parteners
TT is

Posts: 130 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: colorado
hihn
♀ Member
Member # 43986
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, August 4th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good to know she is not having an affair wodnship, but at the least she needs some anger management therapy. What next, is she going to wack you over the head with a frying pan. You know even throwing the soy sauce at you is considered domestic violence by todays standards.


Me BS 58yo
Him WS 55yo, porno & sex addict
DD#1 1/28/14 co-worker#1 1991
DD#2 2/8/14 co-worker#2 9/13 - 4/14,he moved in with OW 3/9/14, moved out from OW 4/8/14
DD#3 4/10/14 22+ anonymous sex OW
Full disclosure 7/30/14 30+ sex parteners
TT is

Posts: 130 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: colorado
Wodnships
Member
Member # 42750
Default  Posted: 12:07 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know even throwing the soy sauce at you is considered domestic violence by todays standards.

Believe mean even with a plastic bottle if she had hucked it at me this post would be in the D/S forum. She throw it down in my general direction. At my feet. It exploded everywhere. Floor, walls, her, me. If I thought for a minute she was throwing it at me to try and hurt me I'd be done. It was more like a tantrum.

I did later point out that she throw a tantrum right after calling me a child.


me: BH 35
Her: WW 28

Married 4 years. Dating 8. Living together 7.

If a man took his time on earth
to prove be for he died
what on man's life could be worth
I wonder what would happen to the world

- Harry Chapin


Posts: 497 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
confused615
♀ Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 5:49 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm. I don't know. She challenged you to hit her? Is that something new?

That..and her tantrum..over..Chapstick?

It sounds to me like she was looking for a fight..and the telling you to hit her rubs me the wrong way.

Could it be possible she is setting you up for a DV arrest? Maybe keeping a VAR handy would be a good idea the next time she starts a fight.

Oh..and I do all the laundry in my house..and have 4 kids who regularly left chapstick in their pockets. Rewashing isn't a big deal. I think out of the 2 dozen times this has happened, I've maybe had to rewash the load twice..and that's a big "maybe."

So her using this bullshit of chapstick in the laundry as a reason to be angry? Is bullshit.

It reminds me of the stupid stuff my FWH got pissy about during the time he was cheating.


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7671 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This fight isn't about Chapstick, in fact, a remorseful wayward would laugh at how the little things no longer bother them,
Something else going on.,, she's pissed she's unhappy and blaming you for it. Notta good sign..,


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.


Posts: 5242 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bingo @ Rachel's post


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
forkinthehead
♀ New Member
Member # 42267
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not so sure this will be helpful and I might be off base. I apologize in advance. Your wife's behavoir sounds so much like my dads.

Dad is the youngest of five and had a difficult childhood. In all honesty I don't feel he ever had coping skills. He sure knew how to throw tantrums as an adult.

He can't/won't tell you directly that he's angry, upset, disappointed, etc with you. I would watch him start his tantrum. First the cold silence. Then slamming of cupboards, doors, and the muttering would begin. "Noone listens to me in this GD house. Might as well become a hermit." And so on. I can laugh about this now. Though, it took me years to get here. You would be told usually the next day by mom whatever it was that he was upset about. He has never once in my 50 years of existence been able to tell me DIRECTLY what his problems with me were.

So, I did the next dumb thing. Married a man that felt just as jilted by life. Even more so then my dad. Spent the first 36 years of my life dealing with two men with explosive tempers. Side note my dad never cheated on my mom. My mom was the one that strayed. My ex husband thought that cheating was a justifiable hobby.

I have witnessed the lack of coping and the lack of communication my entire life. Which has always turned into blame shifting. We all know the phrases... " if only you ________ (fill in the blank) enough. I wouldn't be this way. Why do you always MAKE me so _______. (Again, fill in the blank)

I swear its like directions on a shampoo bottle...lather, rinse, repeat. Some folks never get it. They have convinced themselves its everyone elses fault, as their whys to being unhappy, resentful, bitter and confused.

As the saying goes...you can't beat a dead horse.


Just when you think it's safe to go into the water. Life steps in and takes a big bite. Let me rephrase that to a HUGE bite out of ones ass.

Posts: 35 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: northeast
sri624
♀ Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when i was in r....we had so many issues. my h would be mad at ME...and he was the one who cheated. he would blow up at me over little things...and constantly tell me that "i would never get over it." that i would never forgive him....that i didnt love him....or how could i possibly love him and want to be with him after what he did.

i wrecked my mind thinking that something was wrong with me. that i had the problem...i just didnt understand why we were always having these big fights...and how i ended up feeling so bad when he was the one who cheated????

9 months later, i found out i was in false r.

funny how that works. a remorseful wayward is not raging at a betrayed spouse over small stuff.

and when things dont make sense....or things seem crazy...or they are being unreasonable....it typically meant in my case that he was lying.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 973 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
sri624
♀ Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when i was in r....we had so many issues. my h would be mad at ME...and he was the one who cheated. he would blow up at me over little things...and constantly tell me that "i would never get over it." that i would never forgive him....that i didnt love him....or how could i possibly love him and want to be with him after what he did.

i wrecked my mind thinking that something was wrong with me. that i had the problem...i just didnt understand why we were always having these big fights...and how i ended up feeling so bad when he was the one who cheated????

9 months later, i found out i was in false r.

funny how that works. a remorseful wayward is not raging at a betrayed spouse over small stuff.

and when things dont make sense....or things seem crazy...or they are being unreasonable....it typically meant in my case that he was lying.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 973 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
nokidding
♀ Member
Member # 16242
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi! I just read your story, but I haven't followed all of your posts, so my apologies if I am missing key data.

Below are my thoughts, taken in context from your post. I have a fair amount of concerns here and would like to share them.

This is a pattern with her. She gets mad decides I don't love her

This is a legitimate feeling, one that she needs to actually learn to verbalize with you. If she is unable, or unwilling, this is nothing but blameshifting.

we can't talk about it because she's so busy tearing her self down.

Ok, I get it. But this is not an excuse to avoid talking through an issues, or any consequences.

Well, she did laundry and had to redo a load because of it.

Real life sucks, no?

"I don't know, why don't you call *AP maybe he can tell you."

Ok, I get this one too. But that is hitting below the belt and not helpful.

the relationship I thought we had before

That's pretty insightful and I would ask that you reread that several times. There are answers in here for you, but you will need to pull it apart.

Thoughts to consider:

Define your relationship before.
Define your relationship now.
Would you agree that the relationship you had before is now dead?
What would you like to continue about the old relationship?
What would you like to discontinue?


Fuck Barbie....and her shoes.

Posts: 2596 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: SE PA
Wodnships
Member
Member # 42750
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm. I don't know. She challenged you to hit her? Is that something new?

This is the first time she has ever done that. We talked about it some last night with out her shutting down. She said "I just felt like I needed to hurt and I didn't want to hurt myself." She was a cutter before I met her.

This fight isn't about Chapstick, in fact, a remorseful wayward would laugh at how the little things no longer bother them,
Something else going on.,, she's pissed she's unhappy and blaming you for it. Notta good sign..

Multiple people mentioned this wasn't about chap stick and I tend to agree. The thing is she is either unwilling to talk about what really was going on or she really has no idea herself. Either is a problem, but very different problems.

There is a very strange pattern here and I don't really understand it. My wife is non confrontational. She will bend to others will, let them walk all over her and respond with passive-aggression. That is true with everyone but me. Often when other people piss her off, her and I have one of these fights.

Post affair it's been better. A lot better. We've had disagreements, but nothing like these. There is a pattern to these fights that we haven't been repeating. I think the fact that it has happened again has me worried. I get that there is no such thing as healed in mental health and people back slide and maybe this is a small thing and not a sign that the sky is falling but it really does feel like the sky is falling.

I have witnessed the lack of coping and the lack of communication my entire life. Which has always turned into blame shifting. We all know the phrases... " if only you ________ (fill in the blank) enough. I wouldn't be this way. Why do you always MAKE me so _______. (Again, fill in the blank)

Most of what you said was dead on until this. After it's over she never blames me, but instead blames herself, gets very depressed and self deprecating. I feel like she's doing it as a way to avoid facing the consequences of her actions or dealing with the downfall. So, its really the same behavior just manifested a little differently.

funny how that works. a remorseful wayward is not raging at a betrayed spouse over small stuff.

Can this be said for all remorseful waywards? Is it impossible for someone to be remorseful and still have a short fuse?

Nokidding - what a post so much of it hit home. I'll respond in pieces.

This is a legitimate feeling, one that she needs to actually learn to verbalize with you. If she is unable, or unwilling, this is nothing but blameshifting.

Something she said last night was very confusing to me. She said that she says this because "You shouldn't love me. I mean how could you?"

Ok, I get it. But this is not an excuse to avoid talking through an issues, or any consequences.

Bingo. But how to you reach someone who has shut down?


Ok, I get this one too. But that is hitting below the belt and not helpful.

I agree and I don't defend my actions at all. In fact that is a biggest concern to me of all. I rarely let things get to that point. Almost never pre affair. I'd walk away first. Or at least take a breath and let my self think it through before. I hate that I did that. That's not a person I want to be.

That's pretty insightful and I would ask that you reread that several times. There are answers in here for you, but you will need to pull it apart.

Thoughts to consider:

Define your relationship before.
Define your relationship now.
Would you agree that the relationship you had before is now dead?
What would you like to continue about the old relationship?
What would you like to discontinue?

This is all very key to what I'm going through I think. Since you haven't followed my post let me explain.

My wife has multiple sclerosis. It's relevant for a couple of reasons. 1. it has direct affect on her emotions. Obviously having any incurable disease causes depression and anxiety, but MS causes damage to the brain and spinal column and can cause mood swings. (This explains some of her emotions, but doesn't excuse her actions.) The second reason it's relevant is that she had gotten stable about a year before the affair. We had bought a new house, had gotten settled and were looking to pay off so debt and have children. Our lives were calm, relaxed and the best it's ever been.

So my wife throw a grande into the whole thing. You can read the story in my profile.

The kicker is through out it all my wife has never tried blame shifting. She only tells me what a great husband I have been and how the affair was all her. She has repeatedly said she wouldn't want me to do anything differently.

But things are different now. I'm not at all secure in our relationship. I don't trust her. Before when she was upset or withdrawn I never thought it was an affair, now that is the first thing I think.

As far as is the old relationship dead. I don't really think about it in those terms. But it has changed. It isn't what it was before for me. At the same time I'm not so sure things have changed for her. At least not to the same significance as they have for me.

At this point I don't know if there is anything about the old relationship that I'd like to continue. Everything about it feels fake to me. I thought we had a good relationship. So did everyone else. What I really want is the relationship that I thought we had. I'm not so sure she's capable of it.


me: BH 35
Her: WW 28

Married 4 years. Dating 8. Living together 7.

If a man took his time on earth
to prove be for he died
what on man's life could be worth
I wonder what would happen to the world

- Harry Chapin


Posts: 497 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
DrJekyll
♂ Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wodnships

Might I recommend she read "Transforming your dragons" and "Your survival instinct is killing you" I had a lot of "ah ha" moments in those 2 books. They may be of some benefit to her.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 697 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
nokidding
♀ Member
Member # 16242
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife has multiple sclerosis. It's relevant for a couple of reasons.

That is quite relevant. IMO, when your spouse has a lifelong medical condition, that will always play a part in your relationship, and your emotions.

"You shouldn't love me. I mean how could you?"

I think this can be interpreted in a few ways:

1. I am awful, horrible, no good, and so shamed by what I have done, that I don't deserve to be loved.
2. Why don't you just stop loving me, and leave, so I can escape any real consequence for what I have done.
3. This one is more controversial: Why aren't you more vocal, pissed, moody, volatile after what I have done to you? Obviously, you don't really love me. I take it you are fairly conflict avoidant based on your patterns of walking away, not engaging. Maybe she wants a good old fashioned, knock down-drag out, clean fight. And her behavior was likely intended to draw that out in you. I used to bait my FWH all the time, just so I could say mean things to him, then ride my high horse down the low road. People who are hurt do all kinds of crazy shit.

I dunno, I'm a hand to hand combat kinda girl. But my gf used to scream at her husband to engage into some sort of heated dialogue with her. He was so passive, it drove her nuts. Disclaimer: I am not passing judgement of your preferred mode of conduct. Just merely pointing it out.

But it has changed. It isn't what it was before for me.

What was extremely helpful for me, and may not be for you, was to assume my marriage as I knew it, was totally over. I mourned the loss of what I thought it was, and realized some of it was a total lie. In order for me begin the rebuilding process, I needed to bury the old marriage and begin again. Everything was renegotiated from sex to laundry.

Hope that helps!!



Fuck Barbie....and her shoes.

Posts: 2596 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: SE PA
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 2:19 PM, August 5th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What you've described sounds like a *shame spiral* to me.

I think Monster got *stuck* here and by the time I realized it, I was pretty much 'done' so I didn't put much energy into trying to unpack it and learn about it -- however, I believe the inability to get past the *shame* is tied to something shameful that happened in the person's earlier years and was never dealt with -- so, imo, it's a deep-seated issue that takes a LOT of hard work to overcome.

Just something to consider......


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8073 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Topic Posts: 27
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