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User Topic: personal boundaries
Splitter
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Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Picking up from this thread http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=538071

Many BSs talk about their waywards having boundary issues. For the 3 years that I was with my EXWW, I was constantly creeped out by the way she would communicate with other men. I did my best to swallow it, because I felt that I was being a prude. You see, I have the opposite problem in that I've got mile high barriers, which I still feel ashamed about. I worked really hard to not be critical about this aspect of her personality, recognizing that her "sluttiness" is what brought us together - I need someone with few barriers because I have so many. I focused on the fact that being "slutty" is one's personal choice and is a culturally acceptable mode of engaging with the world. I tried to understand that her behavior did not mean she didn't love me and want me less than those she flirted with.

Anyways, now I'm confused about personal boundaries. What does it mean to have boundary issues? I always thought I was the one with boundary issues because I can't open up to women until I'm in a solid relationship with them. But my problem rarely hurts other people, whereas my EXs mode of engagement fueled her ability to cheat on me.

I suppose I'm just throwing this out there hoping it will help me come to terms with recent betrayal and subsequent separation. Anyone willing to share opinions and experiences, welcome.

[This message edited by Splitter at 12:45 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]


35 yrs old

Posts: 33 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Eastern Canada
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your description struck a chord with me, as my STBX has a lack of boundaries while I have too many.

Contrary to your situation though, I point out boundary violations and try and discuss them openly with her (well, up until recently, we're filing in a few weeks). STBX thinks that its ok to flirt with and hang out with single guys, and rationalizes and justifies this with her need for "friends". I countered with "healthy friendships can be easily obtained through meeting married couples with kids and similar interests. In the past I've attempted to get you involved with friends and colleagues in a social setting and because of your depression issues you refused."(side note: according to her, past depression is all my fault as well ).

Myself on the other hand, am slow to meet people let alone open up. I don't like crowds of people, nor do I seek out settings like this. I keep tabs with a handful of friends who I've known over the years, from my time in the Army, mostly. I have little desire to mingle with folks at work, for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I'm in management. Second, one look at her dysfunctional behavior and lack of boundaries around folks at work would be embarrassing.

Boundaries are everything. If you hold to your boundaries and respect others boundaries, life typically works out pretty well. When they're violated and crossed, don't be surprised when chaos ensues.

[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 1:09 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 987 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
Pass
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Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Splitter, I know exactly where you're coming from. When I met The Princess, she made all the first moves - which seemed like a good thing because women scared the shit out of me. We had sex an hour after we met. I thought this was great, of course.

She flirted with every man she met. It didn't matter who it was - it could be her best friend's husband - but she would be making sexual comments, and putting herself "out there". I decided that I was just being insecure, because of course she would never cheat. I didn't want to be one of THOSE jealous husbands.

So I let it happen, even after we were married, and for over seventeen years after that. I pushed the fact that it was driving me crazy WAY down beneath the surface. I had no idea that it even bothered me.

I only ever discovered one attempted threesome, and one inappropriate (at least!) relationship. However, I have a lot of circumstantial evidence that she was screwing around the whole time. I've learned that the best thing to do when I think of another suspicious incident or person is to say, "Yep, probably", because the odds are good that something at some level was happening.

Meanwhile, one time a co-worker in a large company asked me out early in our marriage (she didn't know I was married). I immediately said no, and was crazy with guilt. I had to phone The Princess right away to tell her about it. She kept throwing that in my face on a regular basis.

So like you, my boundaries may have been too high - and my wife's were definitely too low.

I guess the answer is that there is a middle ground somewhere that would be more ideal. I'm in the process of trying to discover what it is, so that I don't automatically assume that all women with a lower boundary than I have are just like The Princess. It's a hard road to navigate.


Loyal spouse: Me; Disloyal spouse: The Princess
Two sons: Now 11 and 14
DDay: Nov 15, 2012
Separated: Mar 2, 2013 after 17 year marriage, now divorcing!

The best thing about hitting rock bottom is that everything after that looks fucking fabulous


Posts: 1929 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Pass
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Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And I'm certainly not saying that every woman who wants to have sex on a first date is "slutty". I was a willing participant, and see no problem with that. It's how they behave while in a committed relationship that is more important.

Women are allowed to like sex too, after all.


Loyal spouse: Me; Disloyal spouse: The Princess
Two sons: Now 11 and 14
DDay: Nov 15, 2012
Separated: Mar 2, 2013 after 17 year marriage, now divorcing!

The best thing about hitting rock bottom is that everything after that looks fucking fabulous


Posts: 1929 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Splitter
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Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, I didn't like to use the word 'slutty', but couldn't come up with a more PC term. My ex had a book on her (our!) shelf called "The Ethical Slut". I think it was an instruction manual for how to have a lot of boyfriends and get away with it... always disturbed me, even though it was an old book from her youth.

So how does one reconcile their need for intimacy, especially in the wake of infidelity, with a now stronger aversion to cheap and easy sex? On the one hand, I don't want to fall into old patters - of shyness etc - but on the other hand, the thought of being open and easy turns my stomach, because that would make me more like her.

Thanks for sharing, people.

Pass, I hear you about the guilt thing, I felt so guilty anytime I flirted with a girl. I felt guilty just for flirting! Meanwhile...

Hurting, I think I get it: It's not about ones own boundaries, it's about the boundaries of those around ones self. That makes sense.


35 yrs old

Posts: 33 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Eastern Canada
GotPlayed
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Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry, long response.

I'm in the same problem. The urge is definitely there, but the ethics stop me from acting on them. I'm not dating, I'm not doing anything. In my case there are three drivers:

- I don't want to become STBXWW.
- She was my first and only
- I still have the "husband reflex" (that's what I call feeling guilty flirting with a girl)
- I don't want to complicate my life further.

They say around here to concentrate on yourself and when you don't feel the need anymore, then you're ready. Since I haven't gotten there, I wouldn't know.

I have the mind of an Engineer but come from a very gregarious country. I had few friends growing up, but I have the need of talking to people (my work is very isolating). So I've gone on group meetups and it has helped a bunch.


Can I make an observation? I just read the book "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud (if secular, you can read Codependent no more, which broaches the same topic), and although I do see that our boundaries (BSs) right now are sky high because of the betrayal (and in fact the S & D are in fact a way to raise those boundaries), it doesn't mean that the WS was the only one with boundary problems. We could have voiced what made us uncomfortable earlier on. We could have set ultimatums and left before As happened. The fact that it got to the A point is not only poor boundaries on WW's side, it's soft boundaries on my side (giving her too much, allowing too much, not engaging her both on the difficult things but also on the happy times).

Note I'm not saying we're guilty of their behavior. I'm saying that, particularly for both of us who were M'd for a long time, we were enablers, at least for a time. That and the experience we just went through played havoc on our boundaries.

The S and D are also an extreme boundary setting that corresponds to their extreme behavior. If we dated this quickly we'd likely either drop the boundaries too low again or keep them sky high and not be emotionally available out of trauma. So then maybe we'd be no better than WS - physical attachment without true emotional ones (other than infatuation).

To me, @Splitter, I'd rather open up to friends, and then create a relationship out of one of those friends who is a woman and really "gets me". Quality relationships won't exist unless you open up to people.

For the physical stuff, there's workshops on boundaries ridiculously called Cuddle Parties. Physical, nonsexual touch. Essentially an opportunity for men and women to learn to say yes and no, and think about which situations prompt which kinds of (physical, in this case) boundaries (maybe I should t/j this), and also to be able to divide physical touch from sex - which I'd say for the WSs is probably a common cause for the infatuation that leads to an A. I've never been to one, but I've been wondering about those, whether they would help in this regard, particularly for us BSs who have gone through boundary injuries and need to re-learn where we want to draw the lines. Where is "just right"? It's certainly not the same place for everyone.

Once we know where our personal boundaries are, I would (when ready) go look for a couple who has the same natural boundaries. But without either of us knowing where our boundaries are in our natural state, how can we possibly have a relationship that won't end with one or both of us feeling boundary-threatened?

For myself, I'd rather save sex for when I'm in a very serious relationship. It's what I'd recommend my kids (and for them I'd go as far as to say until they marry), and what I did when young. Not a prude after 17y of healthy M, and I certainly won't judge men or women who decide differently, but it's my ethics.

[This message edited by GotPlayed at 3:44 PM, August 6th, 2014 (Wednesday)]


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 730 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She flirted with every man she met. It didn't matter who it was - it could be her best friend's husband - but she would be making sexual comments, and putting herself "out there". I decided that I was just being insecure, because of course she would never cheat. I didn't want to be one of THOSE jealous husbands.

@Pass - I hear ya, my experience in both my marriages were the same (you'd think I'd freakin learn at some point)

STBX wasn't overtly making sexual comments though, at least not in my presence or to my knowledge. But damn if she doesn't have an entire wardrobe dedicated to showing her "assets".

I swore I wouldn't be that jealous guy. I never questioned much before Dday #1. But after 2010, anytime I asked to see her phone for transparencies sake, I would get the stink eye and be accused of being jealous. In reality, it was me enforcing a boundary that she had toppled once before, and as she never followed through with IC / MC or even the simple requirement of R to come here and read and post, I didn't give a shit what she called me.

Yeah, I must have been just simply jealous all these years. Cause my radar picked her latest A up REALLY freaking early and sent us down the road to D.


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 987 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
jendo
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Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH had awful boundaries. We realized it after the A when I read all of his FB chats with women friends of ours, uncovered emails with friends and business associates, and peeled back every layer of who he was. He realized it too. He is now ashamed and those boundaries are firm at the moment. My boundaries have always been probably too high too. Wonder if that is some kind of a theme...

Posts: 188 | Registered: Apr 2014
AmSoDone
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Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I always envied his easy way with people both men and women. He could walk into a room full of strangers and start talking to them. He used to tell me about women coming onto him all the time and what a good boy he was for turning them down. (liar) I said it was because he gave off the vibe that they could, which he denied (of course).

Total opposite of me. I am never really comfortable in a crowd. I am quiet (not shy) and can never make myself heard, so I don't try.

I have very high personal boundaries. I would not so much as glance at another man, let alone engage in anything that could be seen as untoward. He told me once that I give off this 'don't come near me' vibe to other men. We were once at a party and one of his friends was persistent to the point of rudeness in asking me to dance - he was off being charming somewhere. I ended up having to tell the guy to fuck off. He said someone told him that one of his friends has been brushed off and he knew it was me. He absolutely loved that.

However, I realise that he took on this fake persona to mask his true self (his brokenness I suppose). He was always agitated before we went out, constantly seeking my reassurance that he looked alright and became almost OCD with his checking rituals. This persona has no boundaries. Unfortunately, he cannot function outside without it so he is always open to whatever may cross his path.

Funny that he loved my boundaries and I hated his.

[This message edited by AmSoDone at 6:16 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]


BP(me) 50
WP (scumbag) 52
On-off for 32 years
1DD
1 DGD
Too many D Days to count. Same with OW.

Posts: 131 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: UK
Jomarion
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Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a lot like you, Am so Done. I would consider myself shy, polite, probably a bit uptight if anything, and do not know how to 'flirt', and would be disgusted at myself if I did. I am turned off by men who flirt.

I did not think my exWB could flirt until his kids came to this country.( Before they got here, he seemed a gentle, shy man.) THEN I saw another man. Flirty and lots of sex-jokes to women. Really embarrassing to be around. Very very poor boundaries. Would complain about me in public, to his kids, then come back and complain about them to me! Always wanting to 'help' neighbors, wanting them to think he was 'nice'. I call his public persona his 'Mr Nice Guy', who is a man with almost no personal boundaries, his sole objective is in impressing others, using charm, sexuality, whatever works to feed the bottomless pit of his ego.

He would treat his children as 'friends', spoiling them and always trying to please them, unable to discipline even when they were stealing and lying.


me:BGF, 54, American immigrant. one son. me and my ex get along great, the most amicable split imaginable!
him:WBF,43, Polish immigrant
together since 2006,
DDay:October28,2009,after his 3 teen kids push him to cheat with OW.
5 betrayed me

Posts: 191 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: UK
Jomarion
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Member # 43659
Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a lot like you, Am so Done. I would consider myself shy, polite, probably a bit uptight if anything, and do not know how to 'flirt', and would be disgusted at myself if I did. I am turned off by men who flirt.

I did not think my exWB could flirt until his kids came to this country.( Before they got here, he seemed a gentle, shy man.) THEN I saw another man. Flirty and lots of sex-jokes to women. Really embarrassing to be around. Very very poor boundaries. Would complain about me in public, to his kids, then come back and complain about them to me! Always wanting to 'help' neighbors, wanting them to think he was 'nice'. I call his public persona his 'Mr Nice Guy', who is a man with almost no personal boundaries, his sole objective is in impressing others, using charm, sexuality, whatever works to feed the bottomless pit of his ego.

He would treat his children as 'friends', spoiling them and always trying to please them, unable to discipline even when they were stealing and lying.


me:BGF, 54, American immigrant. one son. me and my ex get along great, the most amicable split imaginable!
him:WBF,43, Polish immigrant
together since 2006,
DDay:October28,2009,after his 3 teen kids push him to cheat with OW.
5 betrayed me

Posts: 191 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: UK
still-living
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Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think maintaining conservative boundaries is important. My wife crossed a line in 2007. She told herself she would never cross that line again, and then bahm, she find herself doing it again in 2009. Then I discovered the affair.

I caught my wife delivering a musical kit to a neighbor child. Only the child and husband were at home. She was visiting for approximately 15 minutes before I decide to walk over to see why she was taking so long. I was not happy. She was eating brownies with the husband and child, and inspecting their new kitchen. It was unacceptable in my opinion. I would have felt uncomfortable had it been me and the wife and child.

Boundaries is not the only fix. Boundaries is a switch, if not maintained, can contribute to having an affair. One day brownies, next day sex. Prior to D-day, like you, I thought the problem was me and ignored my gut. I follow my gut now.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
cissie
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Member # 17637
Default  Posted: 9:20 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hope this s not a T/J but I was thinking of starting a post about this when this one cropped up. I wasnt sure which forum to use either.
What would you think of the following.
In the Doctors office and the nurse is filling in the form. She is late 30s nice looking and pleasant. She ask him what his weight is, and he says "195" and then adds "naked". I (who am the one with the poor boundaries) was extremely uncomfortable, and she made some sort of non committal noise, which made me think she felt the same.
This from a man who is always careful never to be put in a compromising position with the opposite sex. Would you guys think it was inappropriate?

Posts: 537 | Registered: Jan 2008
GotPlayed
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Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, August 6th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@cissie, though everyone's boundaries are different, I think it's inappropriate if you're attached. And even if I was single, I would feel flirting to a physician as a patient during the job probably borders on harassment. I know if I worked there I wouldn't want to be hit on or hear innuendo by customers.

Related story - once I had a beautiful-looking Doctor check my groin area. A joke got into my head - "it's the most action I'm going to get this week (and it's totally worth it)!" I just looked up at the ceiling for a couple seconds and tried to think of something else. I did end up telling the joke - but after I was gone from the place and certainly not with anyone at the physician's office, much less Dr. Lovely.

With the Dr. I was completely professional and did have nice rapport with her and talked with her during the procedure but about other things entirely (technicalities of the procedure, news, what have you).

That is an exercise in boundaries. Treating others with the respect you'd like to have if it was yourself in the position of everyone else in the room, and respect for your own self as well. She didn't need to hear it, and she probably hears it All. The. Time.

[This message edited by GotPlayed at 10:13 PM, August 6th, 2014 (Wednesday)]


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 730 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Splitter
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Default  Posted: 1:47 AM, August 7th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Huh, thanks for the tip, GotPlayed, but I think I'll pass on the Cuddle Parties! Haha, they sound super creepy, hey?

I'm very aware of where my boundaries are, so it has never been something I felt I needed to discover. I do feel like they don't serve me well, though. Odds are 10:1 that the day I finally manage to lower them is the day I meet the girl who wishes they were still sky high, heh.

Cissie, I'm not sure I follow your doc story exactly, but I read the dude as being a bit slimy. However, I would also think a doc who didn't want to hear that shit wouldn't even waste their breath on a "non committal noise" - it's what the dude wanted, after all - an acknowledgement of his sexual innuendo.


35 yrs old

Posts: 33 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Eastern Canada
Jomarion
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Default  Posted: 4:45 AM, August 7th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cissie, I would feel a boundary crossed. He was clearly trying to get her to imagine him naked. My exWBF said slimy stuff like that before he cheated. Once when my friend was cutting my hair, he said to her : do you do any trims lower down on me?(HA HA HA)'. I was so embarrassed that I was with this man, my friend luckily laughed it of but later said she thought he was just a jerk. If he did this in front of me, God knows what he said behind my back.

The naked talk. Totally inappropriate, in my opinion.


me:BGF, 54, American immigrant. one son. me and my ex get along great, the most amicable split imaginable!
him:WBF,43, Polish immigrant
together since 2006,
DDay:October28,2009,after his 3 teen kids push him to cheat with OW.
5 betrayed me

Posts: 191 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: UK
SparrowSoul
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Member # 44223
Default  Posted: 2:47 AM, August 8th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I might be wrong about this, but I'm not entirely certain that boundary issues are always quite so obvious(though of course when they are, it's probably a larger issue).

Post D-Day, my WBF and I were looking through his e-mail together when I noticed that he had received quite a few e-mails, even since before we were together, from a female friend of his. Upon opening them, I saw that they contained picture attachments, usually mirror shots of her showing off her outfits. Outfits which got progressively smaller. And then nonexistent. And then there was a link to a Dropbox with several videos of, ah... much more "extreme" behavior.

It turned out that because he'd never solicited/encouraged these little gifts(allegedly), WBF didn't see that it was really a problem. He and she had never been physical(again, allegedly), and she's engaged now(which stopped the e-mails coming in), so she was no threat. Right? Wrong.

So, so wrong.

He never flirted with other women in front of me, he never acted anything but the perfect gentleman whenever I was likely to find out about it, but all the same... His idea of boundaries and my idea of boundaries are clearly so far apart, they'd have to pay long-distance fees if they ever wanted to talk.


Me: BGF, 29
Him: WBF, 35 (RMarred)
D-Day: 7/5/2014, seared into my memory like a brand.

"Dum spiro, spero." - "While I breathe, I hope."
The cure to all of life's problems is salt water; Sweat, tears, or the Sea.


Posts: 128 | Registered: Jul 2014
Splitter
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Default  Posted: 3:04 AM, August 8th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree that other peoples boundaries are hard to read. Obviously, they change depending on who's around, too. For eg, I can imagine that if a super hot girl came onto me, my boundaries would be significantly lower than if she were, well, not super hot. I hate to admit that, but it's true. Same must have been for my EX - her boundaries dropped for the right man (men?). Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as "boundary problems". I mean, it's only a problem when you're trying to mesh them with someone who has incompatible ones.


35 yrs old

Posts: 33 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Eastern Canada
SparrowSoul
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Member # 44223
Default  Posted: 6:27 AM, August 8th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...other peoples boundaries are hard to read. Obviously, they change depending on who's around, too. For eg, I can imagine that if a super hot girl came onto me, my boundaries would be significantly lower than if she were, well, not super hot.

Again, respectfully, I'm not entirely sure that that's so. At the risk of sharing TMI, there was an incident a couple of months back(While WBF and I were experiencing a great deal of strife) when I went to a coworker's house to socialize. To make a long story short, I found myself heavily intoxicated in the presence of another coworker with whom my WBF had in fact *encouraged* me to pursue a PA or at least a ONS(Because I'm bisexual and my WBF wanted me to be fulfilled, allegedly). She was enthusiastic and things could very easily have progressed-- But they didn't, because of my boundaries. I should stress that this coworker is immensely attractive, and we have a great friendship-- it was certainly not a lack of attraction that called things to a halt. It was my boundaries. You either have them or you don't, IMO, though they can(and should) be learned/changed.


Me: BGF, 29
Him: WBF, 35 (RMarred)
D-Day: 7/5/2014, seared into my memory like a brand.

"Dum spiro, spero." - "While I breathe, I hope."
The cure to all of life's problems is salt water; Sweat, tears, or the Sea.


Posts: 128 | Registered: Jul 2014
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