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User Topic: Expressing needs and feelings?
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do you do it in a relationship where tradition has been the BS has "attempted" this more than the WS?

Attempted in quotes because I wasn't very good at it....but I did try. Wife is quite comfortable independently stating she has no needs....or is fine on her own.

Therapists coach me to express my feelings and stop there....no directions or instructions following them....just express the raw, deepest feelings you can and trust your spouse to handle them with care. Retrouvaille was all about this process of healing and bonding too.

I did that tonight with feelings of anxiousness and annoyance. Annoyed does have a judgement component to it....so kinda tricky when that word is chosen. A meeting she attended ran 50% longer than expected, texted wife to please bring me an iced tea at about the time the mtg was originally schedule to end, she said yes, then 30 minutes later I text her for an ETA....no answer. mtg is 5 min from house.

She came home about 10 minutes later.

My wife chose to minimize and use sarcasm in response to my expression of feelings.

This is a common pre-A M dynamic for us.

It hurts when it happens. More so now that I see how destructive convo can flow once hurts start to compound.


I am seeking advice on how to navigate away from this....I have grown tired of it.

How do I express painful feelings in a way that is healthy? How can we keep the pain of the affair "up for healing" without convo turning towards hurtful, lopsided interactions pre-A?

Asking too much?

We are fine as long as I don't express painful feelings or try and keep previously agreed to requirements in place, such as alerting me to her schedule.

God is with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 5:27 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And by "fine" I mean we can convo on unpleasant things and not get mean.

Two year anti coming up.....first day of school tomorrow....was off to the races time for my wife and her AP 2 years ago.

Peace


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
mchercheur
♀ Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi blakesteele,

Am having similar issues this weekend.

MC & IC have been adamant that I "use my voice", as this was MY part in why our M got so distant before WH's A.

just express the raw, deepest feelings you can and trust your spouse to handle them with care.

I did that tonight with feelings of anxiousness

A cousin of ours just had a double mastectomy in her 40s, & we went to visit her.
Since I lost my mother to this when I was a child, I have been afraid since her death that this would happen to me also.
Last night, I tried to voice to WH my fear that if something like this ever happened to me, it would end our marriage.
Not to mention how insecure it would make me in the bedroom ( I am already insecure enough since OW was 20 years younger than us, even tho I look young for my age.)


This is a common pre-A M dynamic for us.

It hurts when it happens. More so now that I see how destructive convo can flow once hurts start to compound.

Of course, WH became immediately defensive----how could I even think he would desert me if something like that happened?

How do I express painful feelings in a way that is healthy? How can we keep the pain of the affair "up for healing" without convo turning towards hurtful, lopsided interactions pre-A?

We are fine as long as I don't express painful feelings

Do I just "play the part"?
Or do I say it out loud ,risking WH's anger, & try to have an authentic relationship?


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1389 | Registered: Dec 2012
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((mchercheur)))

So easy to do the wrong thing...so hard to do the right.

Being vulnerable continues to be a challenge for me.

Therapists insist that I lead my M. Interactions like that of today have me feeling like a leader who has a general behind him firing his weapon at me. NOTE: I said "feeling"....not fact. Fact is, I don't know what my wife's desires are. She rarely comes to me and initiates any convo about her growth, such as sharing what she is reading or expressing what she is feeling. She was cruising his FB page as of 6 weeks ago....I never had a clue she still had feelings, desires, whatever to process from that relationship...nodda, nothing. When I asked why she told me the therapist advised her some things are better left unspoken.

REALLY?!?!? Isn't that the model of a M that got us where we are at?!?!? Isn't that exactly what our MC (group sessions) specifically and directly warned AGAINST doing??!? To this day I don't know what the truth behind that statement is. If it is true our therapist is telling her to lie to me...time for a new therapist. I asked specific questions that my wife specifically chose to tell me a lie in her answer. I still don't know what to make of that....wife has not elaborated on that scenario as of yet.

Therapist confirm we all "process differently". I get that...but interactions like today lead me to believe I just got a look inside a window to my wife as to who my wife really is....where her true desires lie. But as soon as I find the courage to peek in a bit more, she closes the curtains....then proceeds to distract me with how nice the yard is with defensiveness and sarcasm. Then uses interactions like today as reasons why she doesn't share anything with me. KWIM?

I am looking for solid advice on how to proceed. I have an IC session tomorrow....will be a starting point for that session.

Am hoping this post catches someones eye that made it through and out of this type of interaction.

I still recall a diagram our first therapist used to describe our interaction style.

One circle with a dot in the middle...this was my wife. Arrows coming into the circle to the dot then out again....over and over and over. This is my wife being "fine" to be unto herself,...and me craving real interactions, real bonding. And to clear up any noble traits you might harbor for me....me coming in and out was not healthy. I was not bringing my real needs and feelings to her....many times I was moving and shaking so as to AVOID having to do that. So I was sucking at real, true mature intimacy too.

Its a dynamic we shared since our dating years....have old letters to prove it.

But I am bringing just feelings more and more. It hurts a lot...interactions like today. But I am less fearful each time. Kind of like a boxer who has more and more experience in the ring. the next time is not as scary...he knows the times in the ring are only a PART of his life.

You gotta feel to heal.

Peace.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
mchercheur
♀ Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She rarely comes to me and initiates any convo about her growth, such as sharing what she is reading or expressing what she is feeling.

WH is the same. I have brought this up many times in MC. Once in awhile, he gives me a glimpse of what is going on inside. I need a lot more. Maybe the truth is that there is NOT a lot going on inside of him. This weekend he told me that I am a tortured sole, while he "just chooses not to dwell on anything negative, just be happy."

She was cruising his FB page as of 6 weeks ago....I never had a clue she still had feelings, desires, whatever to process from that relationship...


WTF
Blakesteele!!!
I see that as breaking NC. That would be a big problem for me.

When I asked why she told me the therapist advised her some things are better left unspoken.

^^^That is not 100% transparency.

REALLY?!?!? Isn't that the model of a M that got us where we are at?!?!?

I think most WSs choose A because they do not feel part of the "us against the world."
She is still operating from a "me" identity, rather than a "we" identity, Blakesteele.

I was not bringing my real needs and feelings to her

Its not easy to do. I am not that good at doing it either. And now there is that trust problem.

The ease with which our WSs fall back into their pre-A behavior (walls up) does not help healing.


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1389 | Registered: Dec 2012
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder just how much discomfort my wifes affair has caused her. Not a sarcastic comment.

My FEELING is that she sees it as a horrible mistake...but one that is stand alone and is not really connected with how she does life. KWIM?

How passionate she is when she says she will NEVER do that again...but then fails to actually show or share her plan on what she is doing to make that wish a reality. Most recently she expressed concern that her therapy sessions where not doing much for her. Then I discovered the FB lurking.


As far as I know the FB lurking was 4-25 times on and off again over the past 2 years. Motivation for it changed over time....longing for him to repulsed to just curious. And the amount of time you have spent reading this post is about the amount of time my wife has dedicated to sharing any herself regarding this repeated decision to lurk his FB.

Why am I willing to settle for so little? Why was I doing this in my pre-A M, why now?

Hopefully IC tomorrow will kill any sort of poor-me victim-mentality I fear I am developing. Right now it appears to me, FEELS like to me that my wife is far more comfortable dishing out pain than feeling and expressing her own pain. KWIM?

Still hoping someone who has navigated away from this dynamic will read and post to me.

2X4's welcome.

I am raw and hurting....this next couple of weeks will be more so.

Its like we just need to move on and have a few more date nights....all better.

God, do I want that to be my reality....rather than what it truly is.

Adultery is not a fruit of a broken marriage...a broken marriage is a result of a person that can choose adultery. --current therapist.

There is so much more to R than simply stopping the A....isnt' there. A tremendous amount more.

As a person that struggles with porn I liken this attitude of just stopping the A and professing I will never do it again is the equivalent of white-knuckling your recovery. A wish, not a plan.

Its like a wayward takes one or two steps back from the adultery goal line, but still stays on that same field. KWIM?

Peace, my friend.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wonder just how much discomfort my wifes affair has caused her. Not a sarcastic comment.

My FEELING is that she sees it as a horrible mistake...but one that is stand alone and is not really connected with how she does life. KWIM?

How passionate she is when she says she will NEVER do that again...but then fails to actually show or share her plan on what she is doing to make that wish a reality. Most recently she expressed concern that her therapy sessions where not doing much for her. Then I discovered the FB lurking.


As far as I know the FB lurking was 4-25 times on and off again over the past 2 years. Motivation for it changed over time....longing for him to repulsed to just curious. And the amount of time you have spent reading this post is about the amount of time my wife has dedicated to sharing any herself regarding this repeated decision to lurk his FB.

Why am I willing to settle for so little? Why was I doing this in my pre-A M, why now?

Hopefully IC tomorrow will kill any sort of poor-me victim-mentality I fear I am developing. Right now I judge that my wife is far more comfortable dishing out pain than feeling and expressing her own pain. KWIM?

Wonder if she is trying to get me to D to allow her to say to the world "see, I tried, blakesteele just couldn't handle it."

Still hoping someone who has navigated away from this dynamic will read and post to me.

2X4's welcome.

I am raw and hurting....this next couple of weeks will be more so.

Its like we just need to move on and have a few more date nights....all better.

God, do I want that to be my reality....rather than what it truly is.

Adultery is not a fruit of a broken marriage...a broken marriage is a result of a person that can choose adultery. --current therapist.

There is so much more to R than simply stopping the A....isnt' there. A tremendous amount more.

As a person that struggles with porn I liken this attitude of just stopping the A and professing I will never do it again is the equivalent of white-knuckling your recovery. A wish, not a plan.

Its like a wayward takes one or two steps back from the adultery goal line, but still stays on that same field. KWIM?

Peace, my friend.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:05 PM, August 10th (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:38 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he gives me a glimpse of what is going on inside. I need a lot more. Maybe the truth is that there is NOT a lot going on inside of him.

I think this is a very real possibility. My go-to guy friend is a COA. He has told me and I have seen it first hand that he can so completely ignore things that they are functionally NOT a part of him. Yes, even buried feelings influence us...but if he were pressed to talk about them he honestly could not. That is why IC is a must....a trained therapist is needed to help.


WTF Blakesteele!!!
I see that as breaking NC. That would be a big problem for me.

I know....it is a problem for me. When I put my oldest daughter in my place I say WTF!!! too.

The day it happened I had a promtional interview at work...something I have been prepping for for 2 years. 40 minutes after this discovery I was in the interview spotlight for 2 hours. I had little time to really feel the pain it caused. I was pleased I pulled a good interview and recieved a promotion. Since then I have waited for my wife to explain more. She has not.

I suspect more activity has taken place other than lurking FB, but can't prove anything. And, like you, feel the need to have proof before I engage. So I totally get where you are coming from.

But it appears that her lurking FB is not a motivator for her to look deeper. Asked how her IC session went and specifically how the lurking discussion went...."fine. Didn't spend too much time on it." was the answer offered to me. She did say she was grateful I discovered it....which is what she has said every time I discover something.

Just getting really tired of discovering shit. KWIM?

Actually, our very first therapist suggested my wife WANTED me to find out about her A!!! Suggesting that my wife didn't want to be in it but was too weak to break free from it. So at some level my wife got sloppy and left clues for me to find and discover the A. See how patterns repeat themselves if inputs aren't changed? kicker is, I thought I WAS changing inputs!!!!!

Where are the big girl panties she wore when she chose to have an affair?

Yeah...I'm aggravated. But at the same time, loosing steam to engage.

I did what therapists have told me to do tonight. I believe I did it without conditions or demands. My wife chose to react as she did and invite more hurt into our relationship.

Why??????


I think it is because she can take her pain and tuck it away....resuming life as she likes it. Putting up a facebook facade that all is well, she is strong and is nothing but happy.

Thats a guess....I don't know if that is true but I don't see her doing much upon the heals of these discoveries other than professing she will NEVER do that agian and pulling deeper into herself....no long calls to someone, no deep communication to me, minimal time in therapy on them......just a quiet confidence that "shes got this". KWIM? Same attitude she had while she was deep in her affair.

Change occurs when the pain of same is more than the pain of change.

How does a person change who can deny and compartmentalize pain so completely over their repeated actions?

I pray a lot.

I have come to the end of myself and what I know what to do. I think this is where God must want me.

God is fine with us being angry...but is strong in his direction to NOT react in sinful ways to this anger.

Thanks for responding to my posts....they are exploration in nature and are growing organically. I am not sure where it is going, but appreciate the support.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:43 PM, August 10th (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Brandon808
♂ Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just getting really tired of discovering shit. KWIM?
You need to ask yourself when you're going to be done with that. When will you decide you've had enough?


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 3791 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, August 10th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And that, Brandon808, will be the main focus of my IC session tomorrow.


It appears, given the past 2 years, that my wife is quite fine with this "hide and discover" mode of marriage.

God is with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:58 PM, August 10th (Sunday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 5:30 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had an agreement that we are to answer each others texts and phone calls MOST of the time...this was an informal casual meeting that would fall into this agreement situation.

My wife was good at this in the past...even telling her sister one night during a girls night out that "this is just what we do now" when her sister was surprised that my wife would respond to my text so quickly.

Peace.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:49 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wrote something like this in another thread = our pain often comes from realizing our WS cannot fathom that the person they did this to is themselves. So, we take on and express that pain because they won't. A "this isn't life changing for you? It will be for me." And then we get tired of being pissed and angry and realize that they'll never do it and we're just hurting ourselves by being this way.

Then the real pain starts: can I live with someone who doesn't even realize this. Who wants to have more positive interactions as a solution to healing and fixing all this.

We know our pain needs to stop for our own sake but we have to accept something that is even worse than their affair (IMHO)...


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4906 | Registered: Dec 2010
RomanticInnocenc
♀ Member
Member # 43041
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blakesteele,

In the original post you talk about a spiral in your communication with WW. Ie you come to her with how you are feeling and what I could judge from your description, she became defensive through sarcasm. Never addressing your feelings. What happened after I'm not to clear about, so my advice could be totally off the mark and if so, I implore you to stop reading and move to the next post.

My WH and I haven't come through this per se but over 10 years of being together I have managed to influence his communication abilities. He was only 18 when we met, so as you could imagine fairly immature when it came to arguments. He deflected anyway that he could, name calling, sarcastic comments and "but you did...". He couldn't accept having hurt my feelings or disregarded them because that would make him a bad person. I however am a communicator, I can't stand for that. So I would not buy into it. I would turn it on him by pointing out how hurtful and unhelpful that comment was and then I would ask him why he would speak to me that way. I would also say that I would not be spoken to that way and meant it. (it took him a long time to get that I wasn't going to let up on that). I think in these cases you need to divert the conversation from where it originated and takle the communication right there and then. Let her know what reaction is acceptable to you, you have a right to be heard. But do it calmly and maturely. Don't get drawn into the distracting cycle. When they can't answer you without being petty or rude it tends to make them think about what they are doing, especially when you are calm.

For instance
BS- why didn't you text me to tell me how late you were going to be? It made me feel anxious and worried about what you might be doing.
Ww- what could I possibly be doing BS you have me on such a tight leash I can't go to the bathroom without you knowing it! (sorry, trying to be sarcastic without knowing what she said)
Bs- why are you being sarcastic with me? I'm feeling hurt right now and I think it's understandable why.
WW - why do you need to control me, you are such a control freak!
Bs- please do not speak to me that way, I do not deserve to be spoken to like that when I am trying to be vulnerable and honest with you about how something you did made me feel. Why are you being so defensive?

Etc. It really is just calling them on their bull shit until they run out of room and realise that facing the original issue is far easier then feeling immature and petty because you are being so calm whilst they work themselves into a frenzy. You can't have a cycle if you do not join it. Hold fast to your expectations in an argument or discussion of acceptable behaviour, ie being open and honest, listening, and trying to see it from the other person's side. The more you expect it, live it (and it requires you to be vulnerable too which I know is difficult) the more likely she will either engage with you differently or you really will see that your wife is either incapable or not wanting to change how she interacts with you. Dealing with your pain reminds her that she made some really bad choices and I think that equals bad person for her and she doesn't want to be a bad person.

Anyway, possibly just babbled on for however long and totally missed what you are asking for, but if nothing else, you've been heard Blake!


Me: BS 31
WH: 29 (theseseatsRtaken)
DS: 6 months old
Together 10 years, married 2.
DD1: 8th of Jan 2014
DD2: 10th of Jan 2014
NC: 8th of Jan
In hopeful R!

Posts: 301 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And then we get tired of being pissed and angry and realize that they'll never do it and we're just hurting ourselves by being this way.

Lord how I hope and pray this is a false assumption being treated as fact. NEVER do it?!?!?

As near as I can tell upon my 3rd DD my wife retreated into herself. She was cold and without emotion as we talked about it. Did not call a friend. Spent maybe 10 minutes in therapy discussing it. Then it was over for her. For the past 7 weeks I have let that dog lie, we did the "nothing but positive interaction" thing for 3 weeks....and she never once broached the topic of what she felt or anything surrounding her repeated choice to lurk his FB page. just that she was "glad I discovered it.".

Yeah, thats what we have learned in therapy....leave lies and shadowy choices in the dark for your betrayed spouse to stumble across.


She has played off her lack of emotion towards me as "For years I have faked compassion for you and your needs". "I am numb to you".

And why is that? Her answer seems to be...because of who blakesteele is. She was in love with her AP....of which she loved within 5 days of seeing him, as it turns out.


Pain of change needs to be less than pain of same for change to actually be desired within a person. You are correct in my wifes inability and lack of desire to feel the pain she is responsible for. Far more comfortable using me as the reason she does what she does.

It is my ASSUMPTION at this point in time my wife is far more comfortable with the pain of same then she is taking on the pain of change, which would start if she could feel the pain of the consequences her choices have and continue to create. But medicating things such as lurking his FB page numb her to the pain of reality as she slips into fantasy mode.

I used to think that was a reflection of me, her withdrawing into herself...because thats what CoD's do, they take on other peoples shit. "If I weren't as broken as I am, my wife would WANT to be married to me....would not abandon me....would show real compassion and desire to connect with me."

I NOW see this is, as it always has been, all about her. As long as she is getting her way....we are a happy, facebook-posting model couple. A facade she still prefers to parade out to even her closest of friends. To do otherwise would reveal her brokenness...reduce the numbness she has developed and allowed pain to enter into her world. And since childhood she has done her dead level best to deny even from herself that she is in pain....that pain even exists really. She has subscribed to the theory that people that connect with others and show vulnerablity in the form of needs and desires are WEAK, dispicable people.

I have compassion for where she picked this up....I truly do. Being a COA sucks eggs. She saw at a very early age her Mom getting beat down and verbally abused, emotionally minimized by her drunk Dad. To date, she has hardly shown a moments worth of anger or pain over her Dads choices. More often than not, her aggravation had been centered around her Mom....who tried like hell to save her M and her family (albeit the same inputs over and over that failed to bring about any real healthy growth). But to use that as an excuse to keep doing KNOWN destructive actions is no longer acceptable to me.

My go-to guy friend is a COA....I see very similar struggles within him. Struggles to be honest and live an authentic, in touch with REAL emotions life. He regularly minimizes any and all pain HE is in. Constantly ends any sort of attempt at getting deep with me with something like...."But who am I to complain...lots of people have it lots worse than I do." His wife is aware of maybe 5% of the things that cause him pain in his life. She, like I was, is blissfully unaware of the deeper pain he still has not processed from HIS childhood. He is slowly doing that with me....when I slow down and engage him and where he is really at....he is sharing some pretty dark sides of himself. Ending conversations of that nature with "Man...does that feel good to share!".

No coincidences that my friend is a COA. He has played a key role, just like other trusted friends, in opening my eyes to what reality is....and it is NOT all about me. I am not niave to think he is growing as a result of his friendship with me. We both growing as we grow our friendship.


When a CoD person has a near-death experience, it is said that another persons life flashes before their eyes. As time and growth occur....I am seeing more and more of MY life. A mixed blessing, this is. I see where my own actions and choices caused me pain, but I also see how I absolutely have control over changing those actions and choices. Even those I can't do alone, I am finding resources to assist me. Still...I struggle....seeems like a never ending stream of things to work on within.


I was in a very dark pit even before my wifes A...I just chose to believe it was "not that dark". Told myself lies like "the sun is just about to come up...I just need to wait until August when our girls are both in school" and other crap-tons of lies that allowed me to exist in the pre-A M I was in. That is all on me.


My wifes actions indicate she is okay to live like that...as long as she can sneak around and nibble on false intimacies still, such as lurking the OM FB page. She has made quite a show out of doing just enough to get by while still holding onto her comfortable life long coping techniques.


Adultery....yeah, that fruit is hard to accept. But it really is just a fruit of a long standing way of tending an orchard, isnt it? Far more needs to change within a wayward for true R to take place.

God is with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:11 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't get drawn into the distracting cycle.

Wow...you been in my therapy sessions??? Two different therapists have advised this very thing. The interactioin you outlined is a page out of the Retrouvaille playbook.

I did NOT do it right, however. I started out great...with just expressing my feelings. But quickly jumped into the pit my wife brought to our backyard last night. sigh. More growing to do.....

Your post is well thought out and resonates with me.

Thank you for the support.

peace

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:45 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand exactly who your wife is. What if she doesn't want to change? What are you going to do with that? Because I am going to tell you from experience, unless she has a great desire to change, she won't. She is doing what works for her, and it is working quite well. Just speaking from experience.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4854 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Amen tired girl.

NOW I see what you are getting at. I actually agree with you.

I do believe my wife is who she wants to be....her words have said NO, but most actions yell YES! And some actions of late absolutely are a throw back to choices employed to spawn her affair. I am in a position of expecting another DD any time now....no longer a matter of "if" but of "when".

Her Actions following Retrouvaille, her opinions of what multiple therapist have done (or not done for her), her lack of engagement of RL friends and SI, reluctance to admit her choices harm our girls.....yeah, I see your point.

I also understand how my choices have enabled her to be quite fine with her choices. F CoD tendencies......something I am most certainly NOT comfortable with employing anymore.

Tired Girl....I understand a bit of your journey and hold your advice in high regards. Thank you for your time and energy.

What next? Aaahhhh the million dollar question.

I can't answer for her...for me though, I am changing and will continue to change.

Our relationship by this very interaction must change as well.


Ever seen a bucket of crabs at the market?

Wonder why there is no lid on those buckets?

Its because as one crab tries to climb out of the bucket, another reaches up and yanks it back down.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:28 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are asking her to change the very coping skills that kept her alive as a child. What she doesn't understand yet is that these coping skills are not serving her well as an adult, in fact they are hurting her. I can tell you though, she sees them as keeping her safe, beyond that she sees them as making her better or tougher than everyone else. Even you. So you, especially you, asking her to change that is going to be met with extreme resistance.

I valued how I was, I did not see it as a problem. I knew I had survived and I was good with that fact of how it had made who I was. You are asking her to give up that persona, the person that she is. Because it isn't working for YOU. It is working for her. Do you see the problem now?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4854 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes tired girl. I see this problem. For the record....I, too, valued MY coping skills that got me through a destructive childhood. What I accept to be destructive NOW was held in truth as a BENEFICIAL way of doing life. I was guilty of limiting intimacy in my marriage with the same skill set I thought so highly of as intimacy BUILDING ones.

Since about 8 months into this journey I have contended that my shock of who I am and what I was doing is second only to disovering how willing and open my wife was to choosing adultery.

GR has TOLD me she wants to change...she wants to connect...she has insight into how destructive her choices are to the very desire she is seeking to satisfy. Those have been her WORDS.

Her ACTIONS, however, speak plainly to that which you speak to.


So how do I ask her to be honest with me so as to avoid yet another DD, hear months later how she lied to me....how do I request that of her WITHOUT being accused of emotionally bullying her? I THOUGHT I had the answer...found it in therapy, re-inforced with Retrouvaille exercises.

Is the answer....I don't? I make a choice based on her actions and accept that she uses words to manipulate me back into old, comfortable but unhealthy "distractive patterns" aimed at buying her more time to embrace her old coping skill sets?

I sure appreciate your dedicated, thoughtful support.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:59 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3642 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is the answer....I don't

I believe this is correct. I believe that she said what she thought she should say because she got caught. She saw you hurting and she felt bad about that. But in the end does she truly want to change who she is, not from what I have seen and from what you have said.

So you have to decide if you can live with who she is at the present moment, the person that she is NOW. Not who she might become. She is not showing signs of changing. How do you feel about that?

ETA: My motivation to change myself was because of the betrayal to ME. I felt horrible for what I did to my H, I felt worse for what I did to myself. Your wife has not felt that. I feel this is why there has been no change.

[This message edited by tired girl at 10:56 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4854 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Topic Posts: 27
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