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Just Found Out Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: wife had ema with a coworker, continues to talk to him
gfunk
♂ New Member
Member # 44460
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WE have been married for over 2 years and together for over 5. She has 2 daughters from past relationships that I am raising as my own (9, 6), and one daughter together (4). I found out this past Wed night, I could tell something was out and found an email address she had setup to communicate with other man, who is also married with 4 children. They have only sent dirty pictures to each other (many more from my wife than him, I saw in the emails) and they have made out at least a couple of times. I kicked her out that night when I found everything for a few days. I was very angry at first and now more devastated and heartbroken. I love my wife with all my heart and have a strong faith in God. I made many more things more important than her and was very selfish with my time and even lied to her about money I spent on a hobby. I have started the 40 day love dare and plan on proceeding all the way through it, but I am very discouraged that she continues to talk to the OM even after I sent him an email asking him to stop and telling her how it made me feel. We have had a couple of wonderful.evenings since then, including a romantic date where I cooked for us for the very first time (cooked her favorite food). I know I am going to have to earn her heart back and will work every day to sacrifice and do everything I can to win back her love and affection by being loving, understanding, kind, patient, selfless, and forgiving. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated and God bless you.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Aug 2014 | From: St. Augustine
Lalagirl
♀ Member
Member # 14576
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he continues to talk to the OM even after I sent him an email asking him to stop and telling her how it made me feel.

This is a big fat no-no. She is cake-eating and you have to put a stop to it or she will continue to hurt you. She needs to go NC completely or R is not possible, not unless you are okay with sharing your wife with another man, and obviously that is not okay.

Tell the OM's wife. Don't tell your WW you are doing this. Often times, when the A is exposed to the OBS, it blows the A out of the water.

It infuriates me that she feels that there can be three people in a M and that she has no regard for your feelings.

In the meantime, please get tested for STDs and read the 180 in the Healing Library. Take care of YOU.


Me - 49; FWH - 51
Married 30 years 9/2/13
2 grown daughters-30 & 27
5yo GS & 20 mo. GD & GB #4 due 8/15(DD30) and 2.5 yo GD(DD27). D-day #1 - 1/06; D-day #2 - 3/07
Reconciled! Construction Complete.

Posts: 5058 | Registered: May 2007
spond
♂ Member
Member # 41686
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. You do not deserve this and nothing you did caused her to cheat. It is NOT your fault. She CHOSE to do this, and unless SHE gets to the root of her issues, it might happen again.

1. You can not LOVE her back.
2. Keep eating, sleeping and exercise.
3. Are you sure there isn't anything more? A lot of us experienced the same thing you are going through. I personally found out about 3 months later that the EA was actually a PA by continuing to dig and look for the truth.
4. Keep digging for the truth, but do not confront her about it.
5. Tell the OBS.
6. Gather proof and hold on to it. Never delete it or throw it away.
7. Read up in the BS's FAQ in the healing library on the left, and pay close attention to the 180 and start practicing that.

Whenever you need to vent, have questions, feel like your going to burst, come here and post. There are so many people here that are going and have gone through what you are going through.

Stay Strong!!


BH(me) | fWW
2 Kids - Married 2002
D-Day TT & EA | D-Day #2 PA
Reconciling

Posts: 402 | Registered: Dec 2013
Lalagirl
♀ Member
Member # 14576
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

know I am going to have to earn her heart back and will work every day to sacrifice and do everything I can to win back her love and affection by being loving, understanding, kind, patient, selfless, and forgiving.

No. No. No.

Her having an A is NOT YOUR FAULT. You may have issues that contributed to trouble in your M, but the A is 100% on HER. Please do not try to "nice" her back - this never works.

As I said in my previous post, please read the 180. This is for you - not a tactic to win her back.

I'm so sorry, gfunk. This sucks.


Me - 49; FWH - 51
Married 30 years 9/2/13
2 grown daughters-30 & 27
5yo GS & 20 mo. GD & GB #4 due 8/15(DD30) and 2.5 yo GD(DD27). D-day #1 - 1/06; D-day #2 - 3/07
Reconciled! Construction Complete.

Posts: 5058 | Registered: May 2007
Badhurt
♂ Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

G Funk

You can count on one thing. If you continue to accept your wife being in contact with this OM they will do a lot more than making out soon. You are NOT going to end this by being a patsy.

Right now she is happy to let you make a groveling
fool of yourself apologizing for your past sins while she continues to send him dirty pictures.
it will not get better until YOU get out of denial, stop telling her how much you love her, and tell her you refuse to be in a marriage with three people in it.

The Om obviously has disregarded your call. You better tell his wife and do not give your WW advance warning of that. Send her the pictures.

No one here can help you if you continue to accept her behavior. And it will escalate.

Stop hoping and do something to help yourself.
tell her what your demands are to stay married to you.
NO CONTACT (verifiable)
Transparency of all social media
Commitment to you and your marriage

read the other threads. You will see what happens to BS when they allow it to go on.


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
annb
♀ Member
Member # 22386
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi,gfunk, welcome to SI. Please check out the Healing Library in the upper left hand corner, chock full of great articles.

First and foremost, her cheating IS NOT your fault. If she was not happy, she could have communicated, separated, suggested divorce, requested marriage counseling. There is NEVER any justification to cheat.

I know I am going to have to earn her heart back

^^^Um, no, she is going to have to win YOU back! She cheated, she is not trustworthy, she was leading a secret life, SHE MUST earn your trust back.

Keep the evidence in a safe place. I suggest you tell the OM wife, she deserves to know she is living with a cheating SOB. Allow her to make decisions for her own life.

In the meantime, I also suggest you get tested for STDS, cheaters lie and always minimize the truth.

There is never room for three in a marriage. If you want the marriage to continue, she must throw the OM under the bus. Now. No more chatting, emailing, facebooking, calling, whatever.....and give you her passwords to everything, cell phone, etc. She cheated, she lost her right to privacy.

Your wife needs some serious counseling. What she does not realize is that those pictures could end up ANYWHERE on the internet. ANYWHERE!

Edited to add: He's a coworker? Time for her to quit her job.

[This message edited by annb at 7:50 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


Posts: 7529 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Northeast
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know I am going to have to earn her heart back and will work every day to sacrifice and do everything I can to win back her love and affection by being loving, understanding, kind, patient, selfless, and forgiving
Impossible and can't be done.

Not with a third person involved in your marriage, so don't even try.

Your wife is not paying attention to you at this time and hasn't for quit some time. There is no reason for her to. She is paying attention to the OM.

You need to put your foot down, impose some rules of the marriage. Such as she quits her job. How do you feel every day knowing she is there talking to the OM at the very least.

Do you even believe this has been strictly EA considering x-rated pictures.

The OM has to be out of your marriage if you are going to stay married.

She can quit her job, but that doesn't mean the affair ends, but you would feel better.

She needs to be completely transparent, do you have access to all of her emails, texts, passwords, etc.

Since the OM laughed you off and ignored you, maybe it is time to let his wife know what is going on. I doubt very much that this guys wife will ignore you and laugh you off.

Until the affair ends, and this guy is out of your lives, you certainly cannot "win her heard back."


Posts: 3950 | Registered: Jun 2002
NeverAgain2013
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Member # 38121
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know I am going to have to earn her heart back and will work every day to sacrifice and do everything I can to win back her love and affection by being loving, understanding, kind, patient, selfless, and forgiving. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated and God bless you.

Gfunk, this is a HUGE 'no.'

You shouldn't reward bad behavior - and that's exactly what you're doing by cooking for her and catering to her and begging her to love you again.

The message you're sending her is, "you can disrespect me, cheat on me, devalue me, lie to me and treat me with zero consideration and I'll reward you for that by jumping around like a trained seal knocking myself out to please you any way I can."

Seriously, stop doing what you're doing.


Be careful - that 'knight in shining armor' may very well be nothing more than an assclown wrapped in tin foil.
ME: 50+ years old and cute as a button :-)
Ex-WBF: Just a lying, cheating, gravy-sucking pig - and I left him in 2012.

Posts: 1753 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: USA
jagged
♂ Member
Member # 32317
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...being loving, understanding, kind, patient, selfless, and forgiving.

This SEEMS like the thing to do, doesn't it? We're conditioned to believe that "love conquers all" in times like this, and to recognize that a wayward spouse is struggling, and we want to support them, help them, and assure them that we won't abandon them. We desperately want to love them back.

As anyone who has been through this will tell you, however - and as you're already seeing as a recurring theme in the responses in this thread - it absolutely DOES NOT WORK.

Trust me. I didn't believe it...I thought we were different, special, etc. I learned through a lot of pain and wasted time that the things you describe above are, in fact, the very behaviors that drive a wayward spouse further away.


One foot in and one foot back
But it don't pay to live like that
So I cut the ties and I jumped the tracks
For never to return

Posts: 333 | Registered: May 2011 | From: TX
wk55hn
♂ Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You may have been a crappy husband and if the world of cheaters was fair and made sense, maybe you should have to earn her love back. As others have already posted, though, the world of infidelity doesn't work the way you think it does.

You have to take a hard line on infidelity issues, that seems to be the only thing that works. Your wife is not going to leave you for this married guy with four kids. She may leave you because you are a crappy husband.

The problem is, you can be as good a husband as you can, you can be the perfect husband, and while you may THINK it is registering with her, AS LONG AS THE OTHER MAN IS IN THE PICTURE, it's really not. That's because the other man IS perfect, in the sense that in your wife's relationship with other man, unlike in her relationship with you, there are no problems, no financial worries, no kid issues, she doesn't have to clean up after him, they are not interrupted by screaming kids, your wife does not care what hobbies other man has or if he spends money on them. All she cares about is that he finds enough time to pay her compliments and have sex with her. Their relationship is just I love yous and sex. Most likely, other man is trading attention and compliments to your wife to get sex, and your wife is trading sex to get the attention and compliments.

If your "hobby" that you are "lying" about and "spending" too much money on is gaming, just give it up now, cold turkey - it is an addiction that has ruined your marriage and will ruin your life.

1. Tell your wife you are going to be completely honest with her, show her every receipt every time you spend money, and you will never lie to her again, and you will allow her to check up on you. Tell her you love her and will completely re-commit to her.

2. In return, ask her to do the same for you with other man. Cease all contact, and allow you to verify by letting you know where she is and have access to all her accounts and devices any time you want, that she doesn't delete anything. And that she re-commits to the marriage.

3. If she won't give up other man, tell her you cannot continue in the marriage. As bad as your lying and hiding things has been, they are not as bad as her finding another guy to have a romantic sexual relationship with, and now that you know, you can't continue in the marriage this way if she continues to cheat, or even if she continues to be in contact with the guy she was cheating with. If she refuses, file for divorce. Tell her you don't want divorce, but you have no choice. Tell her you can always re-consider if she decides to end the affair. Tell her you cannot control her, you can only control yourself, including how you react to her actions.

4. Buy a voice-activated recorder and put it in her car. This will help you to know what is going on in the week after she says she is ending contact.

5. Call other man's wife and let her know about the affair. You've got to end the affair if you want to save your marriage. This is probably the best way to make sure it ends. Don't tell your wife you are going to do this, just do it.

There is no guarantee that any of this will work, but the marriages that have been saved after cheating have followed the basic principle of "you can't nice them out of the affair" and "you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it."

I have started the 40 day love dare and plan on proceeding all the way through it,

This is OK, I don't think it will work, but go ahead and finish out your 40-day plan. The risk is that your wife will become even more emotionally attached to this guy during those 40 days, have that much more sex with him, and it will be that much more to overcome later. On the bright side, she will have to acknowledge that you are making some effort. In the meantime, check out some of the stories on this website, see if other women who have cheated on their husbands have behaved similarly to your wife, and see what worked and what didn't work in the other stories here.


Posts: 296 | Registered: Jul 2014
gfunk
♂ New Member
Member # 44460
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the advice. She says she needs time and space to figure out what she wants. I think she understands it wouldn't work out well with a guy who would be paying support for 4 kids but she has that emotional.connection now that she was missing with me. I did state while trying the initial stages of reconciliation the if she decides she wants to work this out she will have to quit her job as in no way, shape, or form am I ok her relationship with the other man and their contact continuing in any way. I cheated on her when we initially started dating and she was pregnant with my child and I lost some attraction to her so that's also a strike against me; however since we have been married I have been completely faithful to her. Of course temptations have come my way but I have avoided them because I love my wife. I want to give her the time and space she needs but not too much to where I push her to him. I am planning on taking her out on a date this Friday to essentially reenact the night I asked her to marry me. I know you all say I need to put my foot down and let the OM's spouse know but I'm deathly afraid that will only push my wife closer to the OM when he has nowhere else to turn. As far as the pictures they were only somewhat racy (no nudity on either parties part but she did take pictures up her skirt). I am battling with how to be loving and show her I am changing to be the man she's needed all along while still being firm.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Aug 2014 | From: St. Augustine
wk55hn
♂ Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, consider that if you really love your wife, if you really want her to be happy, and if other man makes her happy, maybe you should encourage her to go be happy and be with other man.

When I caught my wife cheating, I told her to go be with other man, I even offered to help her pack and drive her over there.

I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end, let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings, "you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse, and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with, wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it? Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating. A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason? To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse? What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse? They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point, The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want. You don't fight them on this issue. You agree with their feelings, they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead", you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them", you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 9:23 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


Posts: 296 | Registered: Jul 2014
syhoybenden
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Member # 44406
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Please stop grovelling in front of her.

Tell her that if she wants him she can have him and please don't let the door hit your backside on the way out.

Let her family and friends and especially the other man's wife know all the gory details of what they've been up to. Nothing will kill their affair faster than putting it all out there in public. Do this quick before they start spreading their cover story and making you out to be a paranoid loon.


Posts: 25 | Registered: Aug 2014 | From: ontario canada
Montreal
♂ Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PLEASE do not go on this recreate your proposal date. PLEASE. I did essentially the same thing, and had a GREAT weekend away. GREAT. My wife would say the exact same thing. It was arguably the best three days away we had together in five years.

And the night we got back she sexted OM.

All she will do is compartmentalize. Trust me. I too thought we were different, that it was my fault, if only, if only. You may have a great time on the date, but it will not end the affair and will cause greater damage than you can know. That great weekend? Makes me sick to think about now.

It is so hard to understand, but you cannot win her back. So sorry. She has to want to come back, and she will not as long as the other guy is around. Why would she? She is getting the best of both worlds. You are going to get smacked around here so I am trying to be gentle, but you cannot win if he is still in the picture. As sad as that is, its the truth. Let her go. If she comes back to you then later, much later, you can try this date. Now, you are just ruining your chances of saving your marriage, as strange as that may seem.

[This message edited by Montreal at 9:40 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 88 | Registered: Sep 2013
gfunk
♂ New Member
Member # 44460
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had a conversation with her this morning, made it clear that if she has any intentions of working things out with me that the communication with the other individual needs to stop, especially the stuff that she continues to hide from me. I made it clear I'm not willing to share her with anyone else in that capacity. She said she doesn't know how/why me changing this time will be any different than any other time but all I can do in that regard is show her that I am transforming into the man that she has needed all along.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Aug 2014 | From: St. Augustine
Tom67
♂ Member
Member # 42664
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Please tell his wife and don't tell her you are doing this.
She will actually respect you for this in a weird way.
You are being a doormat right now sorry.

Posts: 221 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
Tom67
♂ Member
Member # 42664
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh and get tested for STDs and yes VAR in her car now.

Posts: 221 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
Badhurt
♂ Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are making every mistake known to man and you will regret it. Needing space means she wants. To continue to e in her affair and have you chasing her like a puppy dog. And You are accommodating her.
Wha you should be doing is telling her hat tomorrow she will give you am answer .
Every thing on are doing is insuring she has more time to deepen her emotional connection with no consequences from you.
And by the way, making out and feeling each other up is a PA. So you are already there.
You obviously are not going to listen and if you think you are hurting now wait until you find out while you are giving her space she fucks his brains out if she has not already.
You can stop that but not if you refuse to stop being a doormat

[This message edited by Badhurt at 11:43 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
craig2001
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Member # 55
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She says she needs time and space to figure out what she wants.
This means she wants to continue the affair without you snooping, without you knowing.

That is an open marriage.

Where does she intend to stay...do not let her talk you into moving out of the house.

She seems more concerned that the OM will have to pay child support. Have you asked your wife what this OM's wife has to say about all of this.

Your wife is already marrying the OM and she is already worrying about him paying all of this child support.

Seems like the affair has advanced much further than the hinting at sex pictures.

When the OM wife finds out, it is possible, the OM will throw your wife right under the bus.


Posts: 3950 | Registered: Jun 2002
wk55hn
♂ Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, August 11th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She said she doesn't know how/why me changing this time will be any different than any other time but all I can do in that regard is show her that I am transforming into the man that she has needed all along.

This is a legitimate concern of hers if she has brought this up to you numerous times in the past and you have not fixed her legitimate complaints. NO EXCUSE FOR CHEATING, but a legitimate concern of hers nonetheless. Why should she give up her exciting new love for you? Maybe she was about to leave you anyway and this guy is just her way out, like it could have been any guy but just happened to be this one? There is a lot that we can't tell from a few brief posts on an internet forum.

However, you have the right attitude. If the following is true, you should tell her that this affair really has woken you up to how much you love her and how much you have been hurting her with your behavior and that you understand why she thinks you won't change. Tell her that she has to decide, does she want to give you this one more chance or does she want the marriage to end right now. If she gives you another chance and you fail, she could always leave you in the future. Tell her if she keeps cheating (by your definition), that you will not tolerate it and will file for divorce. Warning, do not make empty promises, your words will become meaningless. If you say you are going to do it, do it, you can always call it off later. Also, I'm assuming your behavior has really been egregiously bad in hiding your activities from her and lying to her in the past - many times in these cases of cheating on this forum the betrayed spouse's behavior really is just normal taking-each-other-for-granted stuff that happens in any long-term relationship, not over-the-top-bad stuff.


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