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User Topic: Ferguson Missouri
HeartStings
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Member # 38017
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if a person (black, white, or purple):

1) robs a store
2) physically assaults a police officer
3) attempts to steal his gun
4) runs away after said gun goes off
5) refuses to freeze when officer tells you to, and instead...
6) turns around and charges the officer with a 300+ pound body

It's justifiable self defense.

Unfortunately, the media always sensationalizes these events and doesn't provide the facts. Fortunately, an audio tape was discovered of a black eyewitness who describes the situation exactly as above.

The truth will prevail, eventually, but at a tremendous cost to everybody involved. Prayers for LEO, National Guard, and all the law-abiding citizens of Ferguson.


Posts: 117 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: New England
h0peless
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Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And what if the police lie about any or many of the above in order to save one of their own? If I did that, I would be an accessory to murder. Did the officer not have any less lethal means of stopping the kid? Did he not have a Tazer? No pepper spray?

[This message edited by h0peless at 4:59 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


Posts: 1736 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
TrulyReconciled
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Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can't lie about ballistics. They will be definitive.
You can't lie about powder residue in a squad car.
You can't lie about drugs in your system.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21306 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
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Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And you can't lie about an unarmed kid dead from 6 shots, one through the brain. All cops are certainly not bad. I know a lot of older LEO who are sickened by the new shaved-headed Nazi looking cops and their actions and mentality.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
h0peless
♂ Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 5:11 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It will be interesting to see what the final report says about those things. Even if the officer was attacked in the car, and even if the firearm went off because there was a struggle for it, I have a hard time reconciling that with the fact that Michal Brown was 30 feet from the squad car and still unarmed when he was killed, that there was no powder residue found on him, that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye. He may have robbed a store earlier. He may have taken a scary looking picture at one point. Perhaps he was mean to his Grandmother. None of that matters if it isn't relevant to the particular circumstances of the shooting.

[This message edited by h0peless at 5:13 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


Posts: 1736 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The video statement floating around you tube saying that he doubled back and the gunshot directly to the top of the head(charging at) seem to indicate that the officer may have had reason to fear for his safety. I was troubled also by the video released from the surveillance camera in the convenience store.

That said, I too wonder if there wasn't a less lethal alternative.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
MissesJai
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Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a hard time reconciling that with the fact that Michael Brown was 30 feet from the squad car and still unarmed when he was killed, that there was no powder residue found on him, that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye...
oh and his hands were up. Let's not forget that. I'm having a hard time reconciling it myself.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5978 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
POed
♀ Member
Member # 2450
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, tushnurse, from someone else very close to this chaos.I, too, am about 25-30 minutes, southwest. It's so sad and disheartening to see an area, that had made soooo much progress, going through this. Especially hard, as you mentioned, is knowing people forced to be right in the thick of it.

Stay strong and safe.


Posts: 836 | Registered: Oct 2003 | From: St. Louis, MO
Forged1
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Member # 43418
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye...

I have yet to see anything that supports that and I am following this matter keenly out of professional as well as personal interest - I work in criminal defense. Every report I've seen on the public and private autopsies indicates that all six rounds were to the young man's front.

I agree that the round which entered through the apex of his skull could be consistent with somebody either surrendering with arms in the air and bowing their head or charging head down and with arms outstretched.

As to the lack of gunshot residue on the body, that is not in itself conclusive of anything. A test on the young man's clothes would we far more probative.

There is a lot of information out there which is somewhat ambiguous. As to eyewitness testimony, that's not always reliable either, and I can tell you that our office has literally dozens of former clients at liberty today because we showed that the eye-witness was not as reliable as originally thought.

For the record, I'm not originally from the US and I have zero cultural or political bias either way here. A young man has been killed, either with or without lawful justification. I want to see the right outcome based on the evidence. People are right to be angry - there are certainly some very hard questions to be answered here by the police - but the looting and rioting is overshadowing and tragically minimizing the very real message which the protestors are trying to get across.

I hope that cooler heads prevail and that the right outcome is achieved for all the decent people of Ferguson, MI.


Me: BH - 30s
Her: WW - 30s

Married - 2008
PA with boss for at least 5 months in 2013, possibly longer.
DDay - Feb 2014
Separated, heading to D
==================================
At this stage, I'm pretty much bulletproof.


Posts: 307 | Registered: May 2014 | From: USA
Want2help
♀ Member
Member # 20547
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, August 18th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can't lie about ballistics. They will be definitive.

Ballistics do not lie, you are correct. However, people do. And it takes a ballistics expert to complete the examination, release it to another person, and another person to release that report to the press.

I won't go too deeply into how I know, but I have had some close ties with law enforcement officers in my past. Their entire culture revolves around covering for "their own".


BS- me.
FWS- him.
DDay 6/07 (immediately separated)
RDay 8/07
OC born 3/08
OC Adopted 2014

Reconciled


Posts: 2312 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: PNW
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:29 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Again this was not about creating and continuing the argument as to what happened.

Again another night of chaos, where the police were basically there to end things when they become violent.

I can say as someone who is close to the phenomena of everyone in St. Louis knowing another, that there has been horrible misrepresentation as to what actually happened, and poor leadership to quiet the concerns from the minute it happened. This officer who chose his career to Protect and Serve, had to make a choice in a split second when a 6'4" 300 plus pound man was charging at him. Who didn't stop when told to, and didn't stop when shots were not center mass. This man has a life outside of work, a family, and loved ones who all now have forever had their lives altered just as the family of the young man.

The kids in that community have had to see a delay in the beginning of their school year, now not for a day or two, but nearly 2 weeks, and that's if things calm down.
The community of Ferguson, and surrounding areas is a mixed, and has done so much to make it a nice place that people want to live. I even worked in this area as a teen. Now to witness bad guys coming in and creating this image that will stick with the rest of the world forever just makes me sad.

The Criminals that are running around with guns, and looting, and starting fires, and throwing rocks, and Moltav Cocktails of police, they do not live there. Those are thugs that have come from even places outside of St. Louis, some as far as Memphis according to the few arrests that have been made.

It needs to end, and it needs to end soon. The LEO's have been doing this all night every night for a week now. They are exhausted, emotionally drained, and feel they have little support from their leaders, and the community. This is when mistakes are made and I fear truly tragic events will unfold.

Peace to Ferguson.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8717 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Jeaniegirl
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Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I stayed up until 3 a.m. this morning, watching live coverage. It appears a lot of situations there are being 'created' by both sides and the media. One reporter said the people (protesters) were wanting to go home but LEO and the national guard had roads blocked so the 20+ remaining protesters could not leave the area as the national guard would start firing tear gas at them. It truly looks like a war zone.

edited by me to remove political content. My apologies.

[This message edited by Jeaniegirl at 11:18 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
tushnurse
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Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jeanie - I don't know about the all of them, I do know the spokesperson they had on yesterday afternoon was NOT a white guy.
The National Guard that has been activated is the MP's only.

I know they asked yesterday that the protesters leave at dark, and clear the streets so that it is easier for the LEO's to actually protect the community. I do believe that they have stated the curfew will be reinstated tonight.

Poor leadership by our Governor is just one of the failures in this mess. There is a fine line between allowing people to be heard, and keeping things under control.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8717 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
TrulyReconciled
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Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

oh and his hands were up. Let's not forget that. I'm having a hard time reconciling it myself.

It's physically not possible. Bend over at the waist so that your head is pointed horizontally and then raise your hands over your head. I can't do that - maybe someone else (double-jointed?) can. Especially with four bullet wounds in one arm.

that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye.

That's a misreading of the autopsy results. He wasn't shot in the back of the head. The round you refer to entered the top of his forehead and exited through the eye then re-entered his cheek and chest, confirming the head held horizontally.

There are more than a dozen eyewitnesses who confirm this version of events (LEO version). If the LEO version is correct, there will be smokeless powder residue on the baseball cap.

Now, DOJ is bringing 40-50 FBI agents to town to investigate the situation for possible federal civil rights violations (unprecedented). Let's see what they come up with - hopefully the truth, since lying to the FBI is a federal crime.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 8:49 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21306 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
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Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TushNurse, I am one state away but often travel through Missouri. I have relatives in west St. Louis. During the last presidential election I was cursed and yelled at in St. Louis because of a bumper sticker on my car. I ignored and did not engage. So we know racism exists there, as it does everywhere. One man interviewed last night said those living in Ferguson just 'know' there are areas where they are not 'allowed' to be outside, after dark. They are not FREE in their own area because they know they can be herded around or killed by police, just for not being 'inside.'

Our country still has a long way to go to end racism and I feel calling out the national guard and having them in riot gear with weapons aimed at citizens certainly perpetuates the situation in a negative way. History shows us that did NOT work with school segregation and trying to force citizens to ride at the back of the bus. It's like we haven't learned anything. And it's sad.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
♀ Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have zero sympathy for the officer who shot Michael Brown. IF he felt threatened by the size of Michael Brown, why not pull out a tazer or stun gun as the police seem to LOVE using those? Why, once again, do we have to see photos of a young, black male (unarmed) lying dead in the street?


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
TrulyReconciled
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Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Because the media wanted you to see that. They by-and-large ignore the carnage in Chicago (mostly black-on-black gang and drug violence) and other cities but jump on this kind of situation with a vengeance.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21306 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
♀ Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TrulyReconcilled, I am a southern woman, born and bred.

The media doesn't have to point out anything about racism to me. I live, eat, breathe and see it daily.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
♀ Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And by the way, ignoring 'black on black' crime IS racism by the people who have the power to stop it and turn things around. I have been privy to way too many conversations when the remarks of ..."let them kill each other" have been made. I have spoken out many times on this issue. Funny how I'd get surprised looks as no one expects many southern white woman to be sickened by racism in any form.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 993 | Registered: Feb 2005
TrulyReconciled
♂ Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sure, I get it (being from the South also).

Then let's address the real solutions, not just blaming police (and putting a photo of Officer Wilson's house on national TV, for instance):

- more community involvement in police interaction with the community
- better racial integration of PDs relative to the community
- police procedures commensurate with actual crimes *
- work to keep kids away from drugs
- work to keep kids away from gangs
- teach kids respect for the rule of law
- keep children from giving birth to children
- work to keep families together, specifically keep fathers from leaving
- help find male role models where fathers are not present

* Ferguson statistics show a disproportionate focus on black stops vs. non-black stops - that's a given

The media isn't really addressing these issues. As a society, however, we need to do it.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21306 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
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