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User Topic: Why do they do this??
jrc1963
♀ Member
Member # 26531
Question  Posted: 2:54 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a lot of people here already know, I am a teacher. I work with adolescents who are "troubled". They all have IEP's and they all have a host of different labels...

> Bipolar
> Conduct Disorder
> Oppositional Defiant Disorder
> ADD/ADHD
> Mood Disorder

Whatever - I teach, or attempt to teach, them English using the standard district approved curriculum and I also work on social/personal curriculum with them.

Ok... so that's the background.... here is my question!

What is it, why is it, that regardless of the students label they all seem to have the same central issue.... Lack of personal responsibility.

For instance, they will say things like:

Student "Mr X is so mean he gave me an F."
Me: "Why did you receive an F"
Student "Because Mr. X is an asshole, just because I didn't turn in my homework all semester he gave me an F."

That's one example...

Another might be:

Student "Ms. P is a big fat bitch."
Me "Why do you say that?"
Student "She took all my points away on my point sheet"
Me "Why?"
Student "I don't know... because she's a bitch. Just because I slept thru her whole class and then punched Rocko in the face, she TOOK all my points"

It's like saying...

"That cop is an asshole... I mean, just 'cause I was doing 85 in a 35 and a school zone he stopped me and gave me a ticket."

The outrage!!! The indignity of it all... Geez...

Anyway... I won't go on. But this kinda thinking just amazes me. I am always trying to figure out WHY something happens or WHY someone behaves in a certain way... and this one just baffles me.

Any input?? Whatcha got?


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24601 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
Myname
♂ Member
Member # 23138
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

*Warning: I'm about to sound like a crotchety old man.

I think it's this younger generation in general. I work with a lot of "kids" 18-24. They take no responsibility for their mistakes. They think they can show up for work when they feel like it, party all night and then come to work half asleep. I'm a jerk because I don't tolerate any of that stuff. I fire (or make people quit) real quick.


DD: 1-14-09 EA/PA OM #1
TT: 5-11&12-09
DD#2: 5-18-09 EA OM #2
5-31-09: Told me she hasn't loved me.
No kids
Me BH: 38
12-08-10: S

Posts: 3070 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: Inside your computer.
Holly-Isis
♀ Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Haven't read the responses yet.

IMO it's the same reason that brought most of us here. An attitude that refuses to own their choices but instead puts the blame on other people.

Classic blame shifting.

During my time teaching I saw parents excusing everything for their kids, as though that would make up for being absentee parents. I think the kids learn it beginning very early.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11235 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
scaredyKat
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Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why? They are adolescents. I taught for 37 years. I honestly didn't see a big difference between year one and year 37. The kids who came from families where they were taught responsibility, accepted responsibility, those who weren't, didn't.
And I agree with Holly.
And you know what? It wasn't a "class" issue, or a racial issue or a difference between church going or non religious families. I taught in very poor areas, upper middle class, transient, and old, stable neighborhoods. There were the same range of entitled vs responsible kids. Some of my nicest kids came from same gender parents, some of the most entitled came from professional, hetero parents. It simply didn't matter.
As a teacher, you get them all. You just try your best to set a good example and try to influence them to be those responsible people. And hope the school administration backs you up...


Me-BS-60
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3692 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
JanaGreen
♀ Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My college roommate was like that.

She was mad because I got excess financial aid (I was on full scholarship and my dad was a state employee, so I received the deduction from my tuition as a check) and she didn't - she CHOSE to go to an out-of-state school where she'd pay higher tuition. I chose to go to an in-state college where I had a scholarship because my family didn't have a lot of extra money and I have a twin brother who was starting school at the same time. CHOICES. She made that choice but she still bitched about how unfair it was.

I also had a class with her. I had another class right across the hall right before that class, so I never skipped it or was late. My roommate either skipped or was late for EVERY SINGLE CLASS. When it was time to submit our final papers, hers was four pages short of the minimum page requirement. Yet when I got an A and she got a D, she said it was unfair because the teacher liked me and didn't like her. Not because she never went to class and didn't meet the minimum requirements! She was just generally very invested in her victimhood. I was so happy when she moved out!

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 4:09 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6833 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
jrc1963
♀ Member
Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Scaredykat - only problem is... In general, I don't get the mix of good and bad due to my environment.

I only have 17 students in total -spread over 5 class periods.

The other fascinating thing is their magical thinking.

"I'm gonna play in the NFL and make a million dollars then I'll be set for life."

These are 15-17 year old kids whose grades are so bad and who are so academically behind that college is a very distant dream/hope. Not that I wouldn't love for all my kids to succeed and get all they wish for. But we don't exactly have a high school football team for them to play on to get noticed by a college scout. And most of them, while decent players, aren't stand out superstars that colleges are gonna be knocking down doors to get them.

[This message edited by jrc1963 at 6:17 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24601 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The other fascinating thing is their magical thinking.

Conversation I had recently with a young person, not my own:

Me: What do you want to be or do when you grow up?
Young Person: I want to be a famous singer and make a million dollars so I can just sit around and eat candy every day for the rest of my life.

Me: WOW! You must really like to sing!
YP: No.
Me: You don't like to sing?
YP: No.
Me: Oh. Do you sing in front of other people?
YP: No. I never sing in front of anyone. I would die of embarrassment.
Me: Have you ever sung in front of other people?
YP: No. I'd rather die.
Me: Then why do you want to be a famous singer? Did you know that singers sing in front of people?
YP: I want to make a lot of money.
Me: How about picking a goal that doesn't require you to sing in front of people, since you don't like to sing and wouldn't want to sing in front of people anyway?
YP: I just want to make a lot of money.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9856 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((jrc))) Serenity prayer time, my friend.

oh, the magical thinking? sure, I get that but it beats the "I'm going to sell drugs and buy a big house" which I hear too.

I try to remember that the magical thinking is their way of saying, "my real life situation sucks so bad that I spend most of my time creating an alternate reality (with drugs and fantasy) and I hate anyone who shines a light into it, (such as the fat bitch and the mean principal).

The good news? You are listening. And if they notice, they might listen back when you get a chance to offer real world alternatives to a better way of living. But the hard truth is that many many many of the 17 kids with the alphabet soup of disorders just won't make it. So we care for them and hold them accountable because it is the right thing to do.

I hope you enjoy the high school classroom this year! PM me if you ever want to vent or compare notes.


Me: 44, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 13 DS 10
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5864 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
jrc1963
♀ Member
Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OMG... Thank You Care... You made it all so clear! I guess I've been in mines too long to see it that way anymore.

And you're right, I do listen! And my kids know I listen... I frequently get more cooperation from my students then other teachers who have the same students. I understand that they are humans with the same basic needs as all humans... they just want to be heard and know that someone cares.

So far HS is going well... Thanks Care...

NG - sounds like all the conversations I have had recently.


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24601 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
GabyBaby
♀ Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honestly....I think a lot of it starts at home.
A lot of times when you see kids/people with this kind of thinking you'll see parents that excuse a lot of bad behavior.

Well, Little Johnny didn't turn in his homework, but you shouldn't give so much homework because I have to work late and I don't have time to help him with it.

When my kids were in school they knew we expected that their homework be finished, that they be respectful to teachers/classmates, etc. They had the leeway to play video games, etc first to "blow off steam", but that was a privilege.
On the rare occasion there was a problem, we listed to our kids, heard the school's side, and proceeded from there. Sometimes we sided with the school, sometimes with our child, but we tried to refrain from the knee-jerk "not MY child"!!!

It starts at home!


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6588 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
positively4thst
♀ Member
Member # 23998
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am seriously offended by your generalizations below. I think it is time for you to retire. I am shocked at how you have taken a group of students that you have been entrusted to educate and have lumped them all together into the tidy negative categories below.

I work with adolescents who are "troubled".

They all have IEP's and they all have a host of different labels...

> Bipolar
> Conduct Disorder
> Oppositional Defiant Disorder
> ADD/ADHD
> Mood Disorder

Whatever - I teach, or attempt to teach

[This message edited by positively4thst at 9:14 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 1253 | Registered: May 2009
LydiaE
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Member # 42571
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Frankly, it is a bit disturbing to hear/see a special ed teacher with this level of intolerance. Maybe you're a bit burnt out. I'm sure it's a difficult job.

However, kids with SED(s), emotional disorders, and possible neurological complications will struggle with these types of issues throughout their lives, not just in school. They aren't capable of self-reinforcement.

Lots of "normal" kids are entitled and delusional too, as are their parents.


Posts: 99 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: SouthernUSA
Chrysalis123
♀ Member
Member # 27148
Default  Posted: 9:30 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jrc1963, I understand your question and wonder why they cannot see themselves in their predicament.

I do not see you disregarding them or labeling them. Heck, they are kids that are receiving special services and protected by federal laws, due to specific and identify able behavior that did not respond to a series of interventions and supports....that is why they ended up in your classroom....which is far from the least restrictive environment.

Your "whatever" is referring to the fact that you do not care what the IEP is......you teach them regardless.

My hat is off to you....I know how difficult your job is each minute.

I think they say things like that because they are immature and emotionally delayed. They are viewing their life through broken glasses.

You are helping them to get the correct glasses on so they can clearly see what is going on.


Donít get to the end of your life and find that you lived only the length of it; live the width of it as well.†

Posts: 2726 | Registered: Jan 2010
GabyBaby
♀ Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 9:33 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not see you disregarding them or labeling them. Heck, they are kids that are receiving special services and protected by federal laws, due to specific and identify able behavior that did not respond to a series of interventions and supports....that is why they ended up in your classroom....which is far from the least restrictive environment.

Ditto this.
I didn't see your post as labeling the kids...they come to your class with these labels already attached. That part was for information to your readers.


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6588 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
scaredyKat
♀ Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wait a minute!!! JRC works in a school that has a designated population, kids who have been removed from the rest of the others. It is challenging to the extreme! She is merely stating the realities of what she tries to do.
Seriously, trying to teach grammar, literature, etc., to kids who are somewhat motivated by grades, SAT scores and the like is difficult enough, but these kids aren't generally thinking about that. The mandated curriculum provides less and less opportunity for creativity.
I've always wanted to insist that all the naysayers, and people who think teaching is easy, be required to teach one week of freshman English. Or first grade. It is a hard, hard job. One that can send you blubbering out the door at times. And people like JRC who do it in "special" schools are saints.


Me-BS-60
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3692 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I won't speak for jrc since we teach in different states, but I know that our schools are similar from numerous conversations.

MY school: Kids have been expelled from "normal school" because they are deemed too dangerous for mainstream population. They have assaulted a principal or the SRO, they have been caught with drugs on campus. My students attend school because it is mandated as part of their parole. Attendance sucks on Monday and Thursday because those are juvenile court days. We see more court counselors and parole officers than parents. More of my kids are homeless or in group homes than in two parent homes. We babysat a newborn in order to graduate a senior during exam week. We regularly transport students to the hospital because they are deemed "in crisis." I lost a bright young lady to suicide despite all efforts.

Kids come to school drunk and throw up. Every child is searched every morning by TEACHERS. We find razor blades and pills. I am subpoenaed and miss work for court appearances.

I have taught and helped to graduate kids that everyone else gave up on. I have had a student who had to charge his ankle bracelet in my classroom so "swat doesn't come through the windows."

Most of the female students (and they are far outnumbered by males at my school) have been sexually assaulted. They disclose and we start the process. I have my crisis team members on speed dial. Most of the girls cut.

We had a transgender student last year in the midst of the rest of it, and we managed. She was called the name she preferred, we made arrangements for bathroom privileges that worked for everyone, and we had no bullying.

We have gangs. Active gangs. We have gang recognition training.

It is what it is. I am not judging and I did not assign the labels. But through it all, they are MY kids and I teach and intervene and mediate and go to bat for these kids.

eta: for spelling.... seeing as I am a teacher

[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 10:25 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


Me: 44, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 13 DS 10
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5864 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
scaredyKat
♀ Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 10:22 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It is amazing that you aren't burned out. My hat is off to you and to all of you who teach in special circumstances. And to the rest of the teachers who continue in this time where teachers aren't always appreciated.

Thank you, thank you, thank you...


Me-BS-60
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3692 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
jrc1963
♀ Member
Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am seriously offended by your generalizations below. I think it is time for you to retire. I am shocked at how you have taken a group of students that you have been entrusted to educate and have lumped them all together into the tidy negative categories below.

Positvely4thst - I'm sorry you're offended by the "labels" that Drs and Psychologists have given to my students in their offices outside of school grounds.

I'm sorry that I put "troubled" into quotation marks because that's how "general" society sees them... 50 years ago they would've been called Juvenile Delinquents and kicked out of schools and put in "Reform School" so they could be "Reformed" to "Conform" with society as a whole.

I'm sorry that you didn't understand that I don't give a flying fig about the "labels" when I say

"Whatever... I teach, or attempt to teach".
.. because what I mean is that I really don't care if they have a "label"... All I see is hurt, angry, confused young people who are trying everyday to get thru everyday and they (and I) have to endure a lot of stupid rules and tests and mandates from a education system that is more driven by standardized tests and scores that by individual achievement.

And I'm sorry that you didn't understand that I came to SI to ask my fellow teachers and counselors and others who've been there done that why my kids do and say what they do and say so I could HELP them.

Except for caring for an infant so a student could take exams, this could be our school.

MY school: Kids have been expelled from "normal school" because they are deemed too dangerous for mainstream population. They have assaulted a principal or the SRO, they have been caught with drugs on campus. My students attend school because it is mandated as part of their parole. Attendance sucks on Monday and Thursday because those are juvenile court days. We see more court counselors and parole officers than parents. More of my kids are homeless or in group homes than in two parent homes. We babysat a newborn in order to graduate a senior during exam week. We regularly transport students to the hospital because they are deemed "in crisis." I lost a bright young lady to suicide despite all efforts.

Again... since I knew/know there are fellow teachers and other professionals online who do understand where I'm coming from and what I was asking... I apologize that you were offended.


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24601 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
Want2help
♀ Member
Member # 20547
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just popping my head in to say that I was one of those kids, JRC.

I didn't do well at my first high school on the West Coast (I was diagnosed first with depression, then with what they called "manic depression" back then). Then I tried a high school in my mother's neck of the woods (a very gang riddled town in the Southwest). I got in so many fights I was sent to a military prep high school.

I did well there initially, but there was one older guy (far above me in rank) that liked to pick on me. Eventually we had it out, and I was sent to a "school" (it was in an abandoned bank building they had converted into a school, and only had one computer in the whole place) exactly like caregiver9000 described. Exactly. It didn't even have a cafeteria or any where to get food, but it had a daycare and people to escort the gang members to their court hearings. Drug dogs came in and we were searched on a regular basis.

While I didn't suffer too badly from the "magical thinking" you describe (although I am painfully familiar with it, it describes my younger brother completely), I did not do well in school, and never finished.

I am now in my early 30s and on my way to my PhD. I have never forgotten any of the teachers who tried to reach me, even when I was unreachable.

Please remember that.

[This message edited by Want2help at 11:28 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


BS- me.
FWS- him.
DDay 6/07 (immediately separated)
RDay 8/07
OC born 3/08
OC Adopted 2014

Reconciled


Posts: 2316 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: PNW
jrc1963
♀ Member
Member # 26531
Default  Posted: 11:48 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Want2help - thank you.

I celebrate with them when they succeed.

My heartbreaks for them when they struggle.

If you can go and tell those teachers how you're doing now and what impact they had on you I know they'd love to hear it!


Me: BSO - 46
Him: FWSO - 69
DS - 13
D-Day - 12-11-09,
R - he finally came home
Your life is an Occasion. Rise to it. - Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium"

Posts: 24601 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Florida
Topic Posts: 24
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