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Confronting when 'no contact' is broken

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20yrsin posted 6/12/2017 16:41 PM


stevesn

I was wondering, what was the reason she gave for saying she would contact him later?

I still haven't asked or really revealed I found this email. My confrontation was just more about the contact and day to day conversation which she admitted to and felt was harmless. I put the ultimatum out there. If you want him then go. She was insistent she has no interest and would end all contact and wrote the email and that was it. Agreed to counselling but not yet started. She has never really understood the need for it.

I have drafted a big email touching on this lie, counselling, details and working through 'not just friends'. I haven't sent it yet as I am still sorting through the messaging. Might be too much in one shot to be effective. That was the problem with the letter I wrote her. She has focused on applying for jobs but not really addressed other things.

I am holding onto this for now. Also getting lots of good feedback here that gives me a bit of pause to reposition things.


william

Why are you so resistant to your wife leaving this job? Nc is impossible to really ensure and the greatest probability is the affair goes underground or resumes later. And you will never know if it does or doesnt. Is a job worth it the not knowing, the risks, and the stress?

your wife wants another chance to show shes going to be/can be a better mother/wife.
ok. give it to her.

tell her leave the job.



anoka

Lastly, I maintain that if they are still working together - she's still fucking him. They've already crossed this boundary together and stepping across it again is as easy as falling off of a log. Your dream of reconciliation cannot be fulfilled as long as they work together.



m1965

I hope that your wife will find another job soon, detach from that guy completely, and get her life back on track.

And by ‘out’, that means either in another job in the same company (better, but arguably not ideal), or simply out of the job, and temporarily unemployed (if your finances can ‘work’ with her being out of work for a few weeks until she finds a new job). Ideally, she should be working for another company.



stevesn

If it were me I would tell her she has 1 day to tell her boss she needs a transfer or she has to quit and if they won't do it, then she leaves the job.

Otherwise you file. I believe you're leaving a lot of this just to hope

Put down a drop dead date. E.g. She gets a new job by the end of next week or else she either quits or you start having the lawyer draw up papers. If it gets to that point she might want to make a last ditch effort by telling her boss what is happening and let him know if she doesn't get a job elsewhere immediately she is going to have to quit


sharkman

Frankly I don't see how you can ever recover from a betrayal of this depth. That they still work together and (likely) chat every day I would say that you have a 0% chance of recovery.
And even if she's in another office she will *never* interact with him again? Why can't she just get a job somewhere else? You will never be able to trust her around someone that she clearly loved so deeply to risk everything for him



chelsea9

However, if she wants to commit to the marriage she needs to leave the company; it's ridiculous that they still work on the same floor and have to interact for business. That is not doing the work she needs to reassure you.

Your M should be more important than a short-term financial hit or career progression and so she needs to hand in her notice now, period.

If that is a dealbreaker for her than she's either still in the A or does not feel strongly enough about your feelings to be worth R with.


Thanks all, regarding the job situation. I get it is worst case and have said as much. She is actively applying for other jobs as i noted.

All I can say is it is a massive organization. Even on same floor they don't interact from a pure work perspective.

Any of these positions would continue that state of not interacting from a work perspective and would also create a massive physical distance. Really no legit reason to lay eyes on each other.

I get that with lying and manipulation that could happen, but she is rarely anywhere without me knowing whats going on and not on the phone a ton. Leaves it lying around. I know this proves nothing. This is one of those kind of jobs people don't leave. Is it more important than the marriage? Of course I don't believe that. Its a tough spot and I hear what many of you are saying. I want to see how things go when she is in a different place. Closer to home.

Ultimately I am ready to demand more but feel this move would be a big step. I feel its imminent, with 3 applications. The process is not over night. 2 week period for submissions. Contact of candidates and interviews and then a decision. Best case its 4 weeks from application. At this point I would let it play out. I agree, can't wait for ever and will issue an ultimatum if things aren't working out.

The only thing I will say is that in the spirit of getting out she did turn down a promotion within the office. I have to say this would have been a turning point. While she argued it was a step that would help her move out of the office, short term it was at least another 6-9 months commitment to staying. It made my blood run cold and I am glad she withdrew much to the disappointment of management.


Sharkman posted 6/12/2017 16:57 PM

Her turning down that position is a good sign. Obviously the big issue is her lying to you about these applications hoping to rug sweep the whole thing, allowing her to continue her relationship with her boyfriend.

It's pretty decent proof against the alternative

20yrsin posted 6/12/2017 20:27 PM



sharkman

Her turning down that position is a good sign. Obviously the big issue is her lying to you about these applications hoping to rug sweep the whole thing, allowing her to continue her relationship with her boyfriend

Thanks sharkman, if she is lying about the applications that will be a major issue. I don't know that to be the case and maybe I implied that in my previous post in error. I believe she is applying. Lying about it would be a deal breaker.

Through her career I have helped her with resumes, cover letters and interview prep. She has had many different positions and consistently does well in the process.

In other circumstances where they had an incumbent she was often offered a contract as a second choice. At the time that wasn't of interest but here anything will do. I won't know 100% the outcome but I am seeing her go through the usual process to submit the applications and adjust for the posting specifics. Everything looks to be in order and I trust she is applying.

I will be highly suspicious if there is no response from any of the three postings.


20yrsin posted 6/12/2017 21:12 PM

Appreciate your support and effort once again M1965. You have given me many things to think about and do provide somewhat of a contrary view to other opinions. It is helpful to look at things from all angles.


M1965

It sounds like you have all the details of the affair, and for your own good, I suggest you treat it as a done deal that needs no further investigation or raking over of ashes. To keep replaying it will just hurt you. I know that from my own experience. I kept going over and over the details, and that was so pointless and painful. It sucks, it was horrible, it should never have happened, you did nothing to deserve it, but it looks like the main, active part of it is over.

This is an interesting comment. I have thought this way as well at times. What more value am I gaining from details which I can pretty much fill in by myself just looking at my own text message history. It is quite the mind fuck. I keep coming back to the past knowing I was duped and replaying it over and over. It is not a good use of time or energy. I try and refocus on my goals and myself. Being positive about things in my control. But there is always that voice reminding me that there is a score to even. This is probably where I need the counseling to find some ways to deal with it and try to move on.

The other side of it is if we can just get it all on the table then I can move on and be done with it. Dispel any remaining secrets and bullshit. In the end the story is I lied about this and we fucked here and lied about that and fucked there. blah blah


M1965

What that taught me is that we should learn how to hear, and heed, our inner voices. In your case, your inner voice is saying that you want to try and save the marriage, but what you need is real, hard proof that your wife is committed to the same thing, and not still lost in the fog of the affair. So I think it is perfectly legitimate and fair for you to sit down with your wife and set a deadline for her to be out of that job. And by ‘out’, that means either in another job in the same company (better, but arguably not ideal), or simply out of the job, and temporarily unemployed (if your finances can ‘work’ with her being out of work for a few weeks until she finds a new job). Ideally, she should be working for another company. The point here is to get her to accept and sign up to the idea that still working with the OM is totally unacceptable, and that it has a finite, fixed amount of time that it will be allowed to continue.

I agree more discussion needs to happen. It was a good step with the no contact letter but I don't want to wait another 3 months before bringing this shit up again.

As I posted earlier I wrote a lengthy email covering a number of things. I suppose the thing to focus on now is the concern over lying, the need to GTFO and get into counselling.



M1965
Now, and this depends on what feels right for you, you could – and it is only a ‘could’ – wait for your wife to leave the company, and then write to HR to inform them about the affair, with evidence, to blow the OM out of the water. Totally up to you, whatever you feel (either way) is fine. I must admit that the way I am wired up, I would do it. I am not saying that is right, or good, or blah blah blah…But I would do it as a way of making that POS face some consequences for the things he has done, and by doing that, make myself feel like I had struck a blow back

Trust me I have thought about several schemes to repay the AP for his contribution to my misery. This suggestion certainly has some appeal but only works as you have noted if my wife leaves the organization.

Stevesn posted 6/12/2017 23:36 PM

20,

I think you do a good job thinking things through to an extent and I agree to what MI1965 is telling you.

I had the same thought that you are so sure that one of these 3 jobs will come through and then she'll be able to go no contact.

However, I want you to think further. What happens if she doesn't get any of them? Are you going to let her start the cycle all over again? This could go on for months. To tell the truth I don't even like that she is staying in the same company. If it were me I wouldn't allow it.

I think you and she need to detail the plan. Put a stake in the ground with deadlines. Work it together.

Sample plan would be:

1) WW needs to be out of the job by jun 30 and full NC.

2) If she doesn't get any of the jobs or doesn't hear by June 26 then she will either: Quit and then take some time to find a new company; or

3) perhaps a better plan, before quitting, would be to have an honest conversation with her boss. Included in that convo is that she loves her husband but she betrayed him with Mr X and can no longer be working anywhere where she will ever be with him or see him. That needs to start on July 1 or sooner. If it cannot she will need to quit. If they value her work they will make for accommodations. If not they will say their hands are tied and she will have to quit.

4) what happens if Mr X tries to follow her to the same dept either within the company or to another company? He can apply to the same jobs can't he? If this is the case she needs to inform you right away and she will have to have a discussion with her management hopefully before they hire him if not directly after. She will have to quit and leave if he shows up again.

20,

Let me tell you why I've been saying this is so important. She didn't just have a quick ONS. She had a calculated affair for over a year. That's dating. That's "courting". They planned dozens of times to be with each other. They fell in love (in their minds). She worked it like you didn't even exist.

They made excuses and stories so she could betray you. While you thought she was working late and you were exhausted watching the kids, she lied to you so he could put his P in her V. But beyond that and more important , they spent numerous hours, before and after sex, talking, gazing into each other's eyes, having meals together, making plans, having pillow talk, laughing, touching casually.

This was not just getting drunk at the office Xmas party and doing it quick in a closet. This was romance. This was the start of a relationship as if you didn't exist.

He stole from you and she gave away the things that were supposed to be special between the two of you. They were acting as husband and wife.

In this thread you yourself said they were on "a fucking 5 day honeymoon" at one point when they went to the conference. People who saw them and didn't know them probably thought they were married.

I say this not to hurt (I know it already does) but to get you to realize why it's so important to get her out of there.

Remember when you and she started dating? I don't know how long you you took before you finally slept together but let's say it was 6 months. You fell in love with each other. And then you started a sexual relationship and it was passionate and fun and sexy and exciting and breathtaking.

Imagine right then after 18 months that someone said that you both had to stop your relationship cold dead in its tracks. You had to stop even talking. But you were going to be working together 8 hours a day. Side by side. Everyday you would be that close, but you could no longer talk about your dreams with her. You could no longer laugh with her. You could no longer look at her lovingly. You could no longer put your P in her V and feel the closeness of making love.

Could you do it? I couldn't.

Maybe the first week. But every time she sees him now she knows what happened between them. She knows what he looks like under those clothes. She knows what his favorite things are and the quirky way he laughs. She still knows those things and every day she sees him she is reminded of them, no matter how good her intentions. And he knows the same about her

So that's why it's so urgent for her to be out of there. You need to give her every chance to succeed. You're not doing that right now. Whether she admits it or not, shes trying to do the hard work with a piano tied to her leg. If this is what you both want, if you want to save your M, you need to get rid of the circumstances that will make it near impossible to achieve.

I'm still not sure I have seen you write the answer to the question she should be answering "why pick me and not just go be with him"? I hope you have that answer, and to paraphrase MI1965 and others the answer better be "because you are my one and only and I made the biggest mistake of my life when I forgot that".

Hope this helped and didn't offend.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:43 PM, June 12th (Monday)]

chelsea9 posted 6/13/2017 03:11 AM

Stevesn nailed it I would say, great and constructive plan

Sharkman posted 6/13/2017 04:17 AM

Agreed. Post of the year

M1965 posted 6/13/2017 07:33 AM

I have to agree with the comments on Stevesn's post. A ton of good advice and insight.

So that's why it's so urgent for her to be out of there. You need to give her every chance to succeed. You're not doing that right now. Whether she admits it or not, shes trying to do the hard work with a piano tied to her leg. If this is what you both want, if you want to save your M, you need to get rid of the circumstances that will make it near impossible to achieve.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is so true! I hope she can see that leaving that place is every bit as important for her as it is for you. Maybe even more for her, because she is trying to save her marriage at the same time as being in contact with the man who derailed her from it in the first place. That does not make it easy for her. It would be great if she could come round to the view that being out of there is in the best interests of her marriage and family, rather than something she is doing for you and your peace of mind. It is the best thing for both of you.

Re. the job applications, if you are as involved with supporting her as you have been, I think it is fairly safe to assume that you will see the correspondence relating to the three applications that are 'live' at the moment.

I am glad if my posts provide a bit of a different angle on things. My attitude has always been that people should take what is useful, and leave what isn't. I am no genius!

In relation to my comment on not going over the details of the affair repeatedly, you wrote:

What more value am I gaining from details which I can pretty much fill in by myself just looking at my own text message history. It is quite the mind fuck. I keep coming back to the past knowing I was duped and replaying it over and over. It is not a good use of time or energy. I try and refocus on my goals and myself. Being positive about things in my control. But there is always that voice reminding me that there is a score to even. This is probably where I need the counseling to find some ways to deal with it and try to move on.

The other side of it is if we can just get it all on the table then I can move on and be done with it. Dispel any remaining secrets and bullshit. In the end the story is I lied about this and we fucked here and lied about that and fucked there. blah blah

I think you have a good handle on things. It would be good to be able to get some closure on the affair for both of you, and that would really be the only positive reason for ploughing through stuff that I know is upsetting for you. If there are any elements that you need more information on, perhaps you can ask your wife for it, explaining that it is not to punish her or make her feel guilty, but explaining why you need to know. Peace of mind is hugely important, particularly when your world has been rocked, and hopefully your wife will see it as another way of helping to heal the marriage.

...I don't want to wait another 3 months before bringing this shit up again.

I think you are doing very well with the progress you are making, and that you should keep the momentum going. It is better to get as much as possible discussed and in the open sooner rather than later, because both of you will feel weary if questions are still surfacing in two years' time.

The angle of my posts is to try and find what may be positive and possible, applying a bit of trust that your wife may well be trying to put her life back on the right tracks after her affair burnt out. The past cannot be undone, but the future remains to be made, so while there may be a lot of past things that need to be clarified or detailed, I tend to focus on what needs to be done to build the future, and the positive elements that can support that effort.

If I thought your wife was lying and not to be trusted, I would certainly not be doing that, because there would be more immediate problems to tackle before real progress could be made. I am actually very suspicious, pretty cynical, and fairly judgemental too, so I am not a naïve dupe. But I do see much that is positive in your situation, and from everything that has been said, I do think your wife has realised that the affair was a road to nowhere. Working with you, the pair of you can put the marriage back on the road to somewhere, which hopefully will be a happy future. That cannot happen overnight, but I think you are doing really well, and that if you keep on, taking it a day at a time, there is a lot of hope for both of you getting out of infidelity.

twisted posted 6/13/2017 08:54 AM

20,
My WW worked for the phone company. I find quite often that large corporations and the peer structure foster and even promote this type of behavior. It has become the norm. You can compare it to frat /sorority life on a college campus, a separate universe than has it's own social and sexual dynamics that lends itself to compartmentalize the work life from the personal/family life. What happens at work, stays at work, so to speak.
If you aren't in the drama of sex and soap operas, you don't fit in. That is the danger for some people that work in that kind of environment. Need for acceptance over rides the moral fidelity of marriage.

20yrsin posted 6/13/2017 09:38 AM



stevsn

He stole from you and she gave away the things that were supposed to be special between the two of you. They were acting as husband and wife.

In this thread you yourself said they were on "a fucking 5 day honeymoon" at one point when they went to the conference. People who saw them and didn't know them probably thought they were married.

I say this not to hurt (I know it already does) but to get you to realize why it's so important to get her out of there.

Remember when you and she started dating? I don't know how long you you took before you finally slept together but let's say it was 6 months. You fell in love with each other. And then you started a sexual relationship and it was passionate and fun and sexy and exciting and breathtaking.

Imagine right then after 18 months that someone said that you both had to stop your relationship cold dead in its tracks.

You had to stop even talking. But you were going to be working together 8 hours a day. Side by side. Everyday you would be that close, but you could no longer talk about your dreams with her. You could no longer laugh with her. You could no longer look at her lovingly. You could no longer put your P in her V and feel the closeness of making love.

Could you do it? I couldn't.

Thanks, I am at work but read your post this morning and it is very insightful. I had tried to put these thoughts into words myself and this is a great way to think about it. Makes it personal.

How can you have a 'normal' conversation with a guy you had sex with and played 'newlyweds' with for 5 days? In reality for months, secretly.

Another scenario I thought about, that might help 'fix' her thinking on this was to ask 'what would you advise your kids to do in this scenario'? Suppose their spouse cheated on our oldest daughter and had a long term affair for a year. She discovered this after it had peaked with a lovely 5 day 'newlywed' escape. What would you advise her knowing the cheaters still worked side by side?

Thanks, I have more to say on your post and a few others but have to make a living too haha.

Great post! (not offended, yes it hurts, but we all know this sucks!)

Cheers

Sharkman posted 6/13/2017 10:07 AM

With all due respect that's one mistake that many betrayeds make. It's not on you to "convince" her of anything. She knows very well exactly what she did... and she doesn't care.

She loved and probably loves him in every way a woman can love a man. She hasn't been no contact with him for the past few months because she still loves him.

It looks like she is atleast topically trying to abide by your wishes, but she is in no way in remorse. She doesn't give a shit if she hurts you further.

You plain and simply don't have "small talk" with someone you traded your husband in for for 1.5 years and then had it ripped away from you.

We are not saying this to hurt you, but for you to see the reality of this situation. You can't fix this by asking her what she would have done if one of her kids were in the same situation. She left her kids for five days to go on a honeymoon with her new boyfriend. You can't reason with that.

Right now she is "kinda sorta" doing what you ask her because she's not sure her boyfriend is marrying material, she doesn't want to split time with her kids, she doesn't want the stigma... but what remorse is is she will fall over in pain at imagining what she has put you through. She's not even part of the way there.

I mean if this was me and I wanted some hope of reconciliation, I would blow the fuck out of his world. I would expose him to the 10th degree. Then what would happen to your wife? Well 50/50 she would be out of a job. (not a bad thing). You would also see who she got angry with - herself that she caused this problem, or would she defend her boyfriend over you.

Atleast you'd have your answers and stop this little milquetoast cycle of never really knowing where you are.

theaterguy posted 6/13/2017 13:43 PM

m1965 and stevesn have made some very strong points. Have you talked to her regarding the email you found?

M1965 posted 6/13/2017 16:26 PM

20yrs,

Well, the debate goes on, and the suggestions come thick and fast. I think Sharkman makes a devastatingly good point when he says:

“It's not on you to "convince" her of anything. She knows very well exactly what she did...”

That hits on a very basic thing here, about the whole dynamic that currently exists. That you have to justify or find logical reasons for what you want or need her to do. When I think about it, the opposite should be true; she should be doing whatever you need her to do, without arguing about it.

Do you remember the movie “Goodfellas”? There’s a classic scene where Henry Hill is explaining the mob’s approach to collecting payment (not the exact script, but along these lines):

“You had a bad week? F*ck you, pay me. The IRS is auditing you and you ran out of heart pills? F*ck you, pay me. Your kids are sick and your dog ran away? F*ck you, pay me”.

Brutal, but effective. The point is, it sticks to its priorities, and has no time for excuses. To take an example:

“stevesn
I was wondering, what was the reason she gave for saying she would contact him later?

I still haven't asked or really revealed I found this email. My confrontation was just more about the contact and day to day conversation which she admitted to and felt was harmless.”

To channel Henry Hill, your approach to this could be:

“You want to continue contact with the man who did so much damage to this marriage and the stability of our children’s family and home for more than a year? I don’t appreciate that, and I need you to stop. Do it because I need you to do it, and because I have asked you to do it. You think continuing to bring that man into all of our lives on a daily basis is harmless? I don’t. He’s a homewrecker, and continued involvement with him can still ruin the future for you, me, and the kids. So I need you to stop, because I have asked you to stop. If you care about me, you will do it for me. If you care about him, you will carry on talking to him.”

If she starts using the same ‘harmless’ arguments, do not give them any credence. You can cut them short with something along the lines of:

“This is not a debate. It is about a choice. Your choice. What is more important to you? Remaining in contact with your boyfriend, or doing what your husband needs you to do?”

I realise that approach may seem crude or confrontational, but what it is really doing is putting your needs front and center, in a way that she can’t misinterpret or debate. The moral is, you don’t enter into a debate about justification, because justification has no place in the arena. If you need something done, or not done, that is good enough. You are the wronged party here, she is the transgressor. If she is truly sorry, and truly committed to fixing things, what is there to debate?

And…

“Agreed to counselling, but not yet started. She has never really understood the need for it.”

There is nothing to “understand”. That is bullshit avoidance of taking responsibility. She probably doesn’t want to do it because it will shine the spotlight firmly on her, and make her explain herself. Effectively, going to counselling would be accepting/admitting that what she did was messed up, and needs examining and fixing, which she does not seem to think is the case. However, if you channel Henry Hill, the reason is: “You do it because I need you to do it.” No debates, no justification, no searching the internet for articles that prove the merits of counselling. The reason is, “I need you to do it. So please do it”.

Of course, there’s a ton of reasons for doing it, and a simple counter-argument to the “understand” issue is, “And I don’t understand why you refuse to do it. Can you explain the benefits of not doing something that can help get to the root of why and how you were able to lie to me and the kids for a year and a half, and establish a complete second relationship outside your marriage and family? I would say that figuring that out is fundamental to why we’re in the place we’re in now, and by getting to the root of those things, maybe we can prevent this from happening to us again.”

Which is, in its way, justification, but it throws the onus onto her to justify her position.

“I have drafted a big email touching on this lie, counselling, details and working through 'not just friends'. I haven't sent it yet as I am still sorting through the messaging. Might be too much in one shot to be effective. That was the problem with the letter I wrote her. She has focused on applying for jobs but not really addressed other things.”

I think you are right that maybe these things need to be broken up into manageable chunks, which make avoidance harder to hide. You could write a series of letters, addressing each element, or a couple of elements, at a time. If some of what we say here is useful, by all means incorporate it.

I also think your wife is avoiding responsibility repeatedly. If she really wants to save the marriage, she needs to get off her behind and focus her energy on doing positive things, not arguing about the harmlessness of continued contact, or claiming a lack of comprehension when it comes to the need for counselling.

It is good that she is looking for other jobs, for so many reasons, but that is not the be all and end all of what needs to be done. And the main driver is WHAT YOU NEED TO BE DONE. What your gut needs to be done. What your hurting heart needs to be done. Not what she thinks is appropriate, not what she “understands”, not what she considers harmful or harmless.

It would be counter-productive to say this, but I know I would feel like responding, “Darling, it is precisely because of what you consider harmless and appropriate that we are in this position, isn’t it? Would you concede that perhaps you need to spend some time re-considering your boundaries and what behaviours are, and are not, appropriate for a married woman with two children and a husband who all love her?”

These points can be made more artfully in a letter, and with a touch less Joe Pesci in their delivery, but I think they are sound, unarguable points all the same.

She has no room for complacency here, because if it was not for your love for her, and your desire to hold the family together, she could be in the middle of a bitter divorce case, with all of your friends and relatives on both sides aware of her actions, and her and OM’s behinds still bearing the boot prints of the HR director who ejected them from the premises after you forwarded a dossier of your evidence to him (or her).

She really does not know how lucky she is that she is still married to you.

Sending strength to you from Team 20yrs here on the forum!

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:33 PM, June 13th (Tuesday)]

20yrsin posted 6/13/2017 21:52 PM

Thank you contributors to this thread! Much to digest here. I can't really explain why I haven't brought up the email. At first it was to collect more evidence. Today based on some of the posts here I was thinking about just asking why she thought it was ok to continue making small talk with her affair partner. She knows I think its unacceptable. Her being secretive about it has the hallmark of an emotional affair.

When confronted she wrote a very strong no contact letter so the natural conversation would be to ask how that is working out and to follow up on the counselling. She talked about the bad choices made and how she was going to make good choices going forward.

She even admitted if the roles were reversed she would be doing the same thing and demanding no contact.

So the lying about the contact is the curious thing. She thought I was talking about 'lying by omission' but that is not it. So if I press on this to ask why did you lie? Are there multiple lies and she doesn't want to admit the wrong thing? Does the lie really not even register and it will be dismissed as nothing and harmless. (Will have to channel good fellas here :-))

At the same time she is doing work for our relationship and positive things. That is making this all the more difficult. Thoughtful things for me and the family. So its a very fucked up dynamic with me kind of stewing and her seeming unaware and appearing to be doing her best.

Regardless the discussion needs to continue and I will plan this out and will use a little of that mob mentality steel to make my points. Thanks for the input, harsh or not, and I know it could be a lot harsher! I do appreciate all views and the time being taken to provide the input. My slow, 'thoughtful' (being kind to myself here) actions frustrate even me at times.

Will address some specific comments over next day or two and hopefully provide some updates on progress being made.

theaterguy posted 6/13/2017 22:17 PM

Yeah, I'd just ask her why.....apparently she hasn't grasped the concept of NC. Time for a lesson my friend. A small lie at this stage is significant, very significant.

M1965 posted 6/14/2017 03:44 AM

20yrs,

You are actually doing way better than it feels.

Trust is the first casualty of infidelity, but there are elements of what happened in your story that you have independent proof of.

1.) Your wife could have run off with the OM, he seemed to be pushing for that, but she didn't. That was her decision, made without your involvement, and running contrary to what the OM wanted. Maybe she won't win any merit badges for 'Wife of the Year', but what that decisions shows is where her feelings really are. Which is with you and the family. I know that prompts the obvious question of, "Well, if she loves me and the family so much, why did she...?" Unfortunately, that misunderstands the helter-skelter mind-set that the experts say occurs in affairs. Some liken it to a drug addiction, and while I thought that was bullsh*t at first, I have now read so much on the subject that I think maybe it's true. Her period with the OM was like a period on crystal meth or drinking two bottles of vodka a day. That is not to make any excuses for it, but rather to try and put it in some kind of context. Underneath her addiction, her core feelings were to stay in the marriage. So I think you can trust that, because it was proven by her actions when faced with the choice of 'stay or go'.

2.) You have proof, via their correspondence, that the affair was burning out at the point where your wife said shame and guilt were starting to overwhelm whatever the rewards of the affair were. Perhaps that five-day 'honeymoon' finally made her think, "What have I become?" Kind of like the equivalent of the old story about if you catch a kid smoking a cigarette, you buy them a pack and make them smoke the lot, till they get sick, and that puts them off cigarettes for life. Now, before a sh*tstorm erupts about that example, it is something that was said back in the 1960s and 1970s, and it is not something anyone with a brain or a conscience would do these days. But the point of the exercise was that exposing a person to an excess of what they might otherwise experience in small amounts can show them what that guilty pleasure really is. They end up feeling sick. In an affair, liaisons tend to be furtive, snatched, and hurried. In those intense but separate bursts, perhaps they are mentally palatable. But when you wife had five days with the OM, it was the equivalent of being made to smoke a whole packet of cigarettes instead of just one. Overkill. And when she started to feel that overkill, and the guilt and shame of what she was doing, it will have altered her perception of the affair, the OM, and herself. The point of this long ramble being that the events prove that the 'shine' had gone from the affair in your wife's mind. This is not based on anything she told you directly, you have the evidence in their correspondence.

Those are two important insights into her messed-up thinking, and both are independent of any pressures to lie that she might have felt if she was talking directly to you. Both are, in their way, positive. They provide a foundation for her to build on by taking further actions based on what you want and need. It sounds like she has the basic will there, she just needs to be guided and motivated.

Sharkman posted 6/14/2017 04:54 AM

you need to do something to blow up his world a bit then see if you wife finds out. It's the best way to not only test no contact but to see where he heart is.

Stevesn posted 6/14/2017 06:22 AM

MI1965

I agree with your statements as possible signs that WW might be more receptive to 20yrsin's requests to leave the job and better NC than he thinks.

However I don't want your points used as justification that 20yrsin shouldn't do anything because he might think WW might have come to her senses anyway and stopped the A on her own. I don't believe that for a second.

Even cheaters that show signs of guilt may never come clean. And there is nothing to say that she wouldn't have worked thru her guilt and found the next honeymoon opportunity to be with OM again.

This was a relationship. When she lists in her mind or relays to someone the list of the boyfriends she has had in her life besides her husband AP should now be included in this list.

If BH never existed this guy would be in her mind as one of her great true loves. The fact that she still sees him every day means that the A with him continues, maybe differently than before, but no less importantly.

To me, until true NC starts, full Ghost mode, BH is still at DDay.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:24 AM, June 14th (Wednesday)]

M1965 posted 6/14/2017 07:33 AM

Hi Stevesn,

No problem! My angle was exactly what you say, that there are signs that WW's mind-set is getting back to where it should have been all along, which is 'for' the marriage. I thought that could be a good foundation for whatever action may be planned. I suppose that's why I tend to look for positive signs, such as they are, because they can be a good indicator of whether or not it is even worth trying to rebuild something. And in a case where there has been deceit for more than a year, it seemed worthwhile to try and find some independent evidence of a change in mind-set. However, your point about a couple of positive indicators being nowhere near a cause for celebration is well-made, and completely right. It's why I think the WW has to get into counselling as soon as possible, because whatever mental gymnastics were performed to make it 'okay' to be in a second relationship for more than a year, they need to be pulled to pieces and disempowered to try and prevent anything like that from happening again.

For WW to say that she sees no need for counselling is almost like she sees nothing 'wrong' or messed up in what she did for a year and a half, and that as she now says she has stopped doing it, there is nothing to examine or review. She's missing the point by a country mile; the reason for counselling is because you enabled yourself to betray your husband and children for a year and a half. There is something amiss in having that capacity, and yet WW seems to think it needs no analysis. She needs to get to a point where she actually understands why what she did was so messed up, and by gaining that understanding, to also understand exactly what 20yrs is struggling with now.

The same thing goes with her thinking that casual contact with the OM is harmless. It isn't, but she didn't see that.

So I would say that while there are some positive, independent signs that the affair was burning down, there are also signs that WW's mind is by no means out of the woods, and that she is not viewing the affair from the angle of the harm it did to the other people involved (her family). I agree that until she grasps that, and truly 'gets' it, she is still in a grey area between the affair and the marriage, and positive actions should be taken to get her out of it. She needs to recognise the OM as the toxic danger he represented to her family, which does not seem to be her view at the moment.

I most definitely think that things should be done, because mentally, she is not fully out of 'affair' mode yet, and not taking responsibility for the emotional damage she has caused to those around her, and which she could still cause unless she gets with the program.

Maybe that is an angle that could be taken: "Yes, you are making a few efforts, but I am still seeing signs that you don't fully understand what you did, what it did to me, what I need as a result of it, or the fact that our marriage is on much shakier ground than you think". Which is pretty much a statement of fact as things stand at the moment, isn't it?

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:34 AM, June 14th (Wednesday)]

20yrsin posted 6/14/2017 22:22 PM

Guys, thanks again for the insight and recommendations. These points really hit home for me and I will be using them in what I can only call a follow up confrontation.

One of many to come I imagine.

The setup for this is too good or awful, depending on your point view, to be true. Our 11th anniversary is this weekend. The 10th barely passed with notice and actually was highlighted with a crying session (me having no clue why) and accusations of excluding her when talking to my friends. This was followed by an apologetic text the next morning saying 'you used to be my best friend. I really miss that.'

Anywho, fast forward a year and a lot has happened and been uncovered. We have a lovely celebration planned and as I mentioned we currently do all sorts of nice things together - yoga, running, eating healthy, reading. While I know these are positive things, it is rugsweeping things that need to be dealt with.

Unfortunately this anniversary date night we have planned might be the only time I have to bring this up. Its on Saturday.

I am going to try and fit it in tomorrow evening as laying a big bomb on anniversary night is probably not something I want to look back on over the years. Tomorrow night, if I can get this in, may put a damper on things this weekend or it may help create an opportunity to reconcile properly. We will see.


stevesn

So that's why it's so urgent for her to be out of there. You need to give her every chance to succeed. You're not doing that right now. Whether she admits it or not, shes trying to do the hard work with a piano tied to her leg. If this is what you both want, if you want to save your M, you need to get rid of the circumstances that will make it near impossible to achieve.

This was a relationship. When she lists in her mind or relays to someone the list of the boyfriends she has had in her life besides her husband AP should now be included in this list.

If BH never existed this guy would be in her mind as one of her great true loves. The fact that she still sees him every day means that the A with him continues, maybe differently than before, but no less importantly.

These are great points. It helps me understand the urgency for her to get out of that office.
I believe it will also help her understand the urgency and provide the context for why that is the case. The piano image is so true!


m1965
It's why I think the WW has to get into counselling as soon as possible, because whatever mental gymnastics were performed to make it 'okay' to be in a second relationship for more than a year, they need to be pulled to pieces and disempowered to try and prevent anything like that from happening again.

This is a great way of looking at it. And I have said this to her in anger a few times. You lied every fucking day.

But this is a way of pointing out the need to get an understanding of the mentality that it took to do those things through counselling. In turn this will help her gain that understanding of what she did and ensure it is not repeated.


m1965
For WW to say that she sees no need for counselling is almost like she sees nothing 'wrong' or messed up in what she did for a year and a half, and that as she now says she has stopped doing it, there is nothing to examine or review. She's missing the point by a country mile; the reason for counselling is because you enabled yourself to betray your husband and children for a year and a half. There is something amiss in having that capacity, and yet WW seems to think it needs no analysis. She needs to get to a point where she actually understands why what she did was so messed up, and by gaining that understanding, to also understand exactly what 20yrs is struggling with now.

She has always maintained it was compartmentalization and living a seperate life. One she hated herself for but couldnt unwind herself from. The addiction issue that you have mentioned seems to fit here.

This is a key point and I have always felt she has regret but not remorse. She is very motivated to be a better person and wife. That is work she is doing. However she only wants to look forward and not dwell in the past. This approach has avoided the need for empathy and she has not gained an understanding of her capacity to abuse and the impacts of that abuse.


m1965
she is not viewing the affair from the angle of the harm it did to the other people involved (her family). I agree that until she grasps that, and truly 'gets' it, she is still in a grey area between the affair and the marriage, and positive actions should be taken to get her out of it. She needs to recognise the OM as the toxic danger he represented to her family, which does not seem to be her view at the moment.

I most definitely think that things should be done, because mentally, she is not fully out of 'affair' mode yet, and not taking responsibility for the emotional damage she has caused to those around her, and which she could still cause unless she gets with the program.

Recognizing the toxicity of the OM and his presence is a key point.

I have to thank you M1965, you gave me the framework for the confrontation that lead to the no contact letter. A small but positive step.

I am leveraging many of your points and stevesn and others here for a second confrontation. One that will address that continuing the relationship is continuing the affair.

And most significantly lying about it is a harmful setback. Its persisting the cheating behaviour. I will outline that counselling is mandatory for us to continue moving forward. Without it we are not giving ourselves any chance for success.

Additionally we will need to talk about what happens if the jobs don't pan out. I may save that for a follow up as things are still in flight there. She is doing the work on that end at the moment. When I get to that discussion which will be the next in the series, assuming we are still working through this. I will outline my boundaries and consequences if things don't work out there.

Thanks guys for the strength!


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