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Lost and frustrated

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Bigger posted 9/14/2017 09:11 AM

Sainyads

Former cop here with some (old but extensive) experience with sexual assault cases.

Was the incident some years ago, the same man? (oops... saw you have answered that one already)

IF she’s telling the truth then yes – this is rape. However, it would require a confession from OM for any legal consequences. The basis of all law is that the benefit of doubt leans towards the accused. A drunk woman that willingly entered his house, no physical evidence of violence, maybe not even residue (skin, semen, dna), long time from event to report… It won’t do. All he must do is either deny or insist it was consensual. Too late for a tox report to support that she was totally incapable of acceptance. Too late for rape evidence kits.
It's tough and it’s a situation predators thrive in and the legal system hates. But that’s reality.

What might be a good idea is to contact your local police or a sexual abuse hotline and let them hear what happened. You could probably do so with no charge being made. Sexual predators have a pattern and MAYBE there are others with the same experience with the same man. MAYBE there are repeated incidents of Rohypnol accusations in your areas.

When she came home – was she drunk? Could you converse? I hate throwing out excuses for her behavior but if she doesn’t remember anything until next day then I’m thinking rape-drug… My friends in the police say it’s’ extremely common. Common to the point where cops and bouncers are trained to recognize the symptoms.


Other than that, IMHO I can see a series of steps you should consider. A series of actions.

First: I truly believe a marriage can survive anything. This is not the same as saying a marriage must survive everything. I truly believe that if YOU want to and if SHE wants to then you two can work through this.

There is one exception thought… A marriage can survive anything other than lies.

To me the first absolute step is to get a sense of you knowing and acknowledging the truth. From what you have posted I take it that you want to find ways of working this out. Tell her that. Tell her that most of all you want to try to save the marriage, but that it’s SERIOUSLY damaged. Tell her that she needs to answer some questions and that if she’s truthful then NO MATTER what she tells you then your first option will be reconciliation. Tell her that you probably will follow this though with a polygraph (although maybe a weak threat in the UK).
Then listen.
How often has she cheated? How often with this man? Anyone else? Was she always drunk? Ask whatever you need. Get your truth.

Second: How does she feel about what happened? Does she feel raped?
If she says yes, then she needs rape-victim consultation. In fact, these people are used to helping husbands of raped wives. Used to dealing with the “was it cheating or rape” scenarios. What you describe – too drunk wife, sex with OM and the question was it rape or consensual – its unfortunately a well-known dilemma.

We can all sit on our high horses and tut-tut at your wife for getting too drunk. We can all recognize the danger in leaving with a man while in that state. But no matter what – no person deserves to be raped or had it coming.

But this all changes IF this was consensual…

Third: Her drinking. Does she drink excessively? By that I am more referring to when she drinks, not how often. Even if she only drinks once a year then if she drinks to black-out and loses her control then it’s an issue. If, however she drinks “normally” but was slipped a roofie…

Maybe both of you should commit to a period of sobriety while you work things out. That will fit in with my fourth suggestion.

Fourth: Is alcohol a substantial part of your social life? Can you two go out and simply skip alcohol or stick to a pint or two?
What about the group of friends? Is it Fridays at the pub or do you do other stuff too?
What about the OM? How does he fit into the group?

It goes without saying that he needs to be removed from your lives. IMHO the truth is the best way to deal with that. Even if that means telling the others what happened. Remember: your wife was drunk and claims to repeatedly have said no. Even IF this was consensual then this “friend” is no more of a friend than he’s screwing other men’s wives.

[This message edited by Bigger at 9:11 AM, September 14th (Thursday)]

twisted posted 9/14/2017 09:13 AM

Sainyads,

Define "friends".
How many, what genders, how are they acquainted to you and your wife? Long time friends, co-workers, neighbors? How long have you know them, and have you any question that he, (or is they?) are capable of rape? Which one was she the best friends with, and why did she stay after you left? For what reason?

mike7 posted 9/14/2017 09:21 AM

nice post Bigger.

Sainyad - Not saying that all the other posts aren't good advice, but I would follow what Bigger suggested. At least for now. very solid advice.


good luck friend

Sainyads posted 9/14/2017 09:53 AM

All advice is good. My head is already spinning and it's just trying to process everything. The friend (I will call jess) is a friend who lives in the same road and kids go to the same school. She said 1 minute my wife was gone, next her and her bag were gone. She assumed she decided to go home. The bloke is a friend of my wife's older brother and is known by most peole in the area. My wife doesn't remember getting home or talking to me when she did. I didn't get much sense out of her only that she had been to jess's. Which she had and jess asked where she had been she just said the pub. Which had shut an hour before? The next day I had to pick my wife's phone up from the pub. They said they found it just left on the bar. Very very unlike her to not have her phone in her bag. This is her issue. His word against hers and she doesn't want it all coming out in the open with friends and family knowing. But she is seeking advice from professionals today (she works in a hospital) I am finding haRd to treat this as she simply cheated on me but worried I am being slightly nieve.

I don't drink at home, at all. And only drink on social events and special occasions. She will drink 2-3 times a week at least but struggles to control it. When she starts she doesn't know when to stop and would stay up drinking all night on her own if the alcohol was available. She has had a troubled past. And had a rough time a couple years back losing her nan, grandad, auntie and mum in the space of 18 months. Which is when it got worse. She is seeking help with everything and said she doesn't want to drink again so she is not in this position. I haven't even thought about leaving her so far and worry that this a weakness that is being exploited and that I am being a bit of a doormat

twisted posted 9/14/2017 10:13 AM

What did jess say your wife's condition was when she left? Are there other witness's?

Which she had and jess asked where she had been she just said the pub.

I'm confused, jess ( a female) was with your wife at the pub, then notice she was gone, then showed up at jess's house an hour after the pub closed. Was she walking from pub, to bloke's house, then back to jess's house, then home?

If I got this right, what did jess say her condition was when she showed up at her house?
Barely standing? Confused, Drunk? Disheveled?

If she was "roofied" I would think she would have a hard time walking anywhere.

Bigger posted 9/14/2017 10:37 AM

GHB and Rohypnol can leave a person perfectly capable of physical activity (like walking) but incapable of rational thought and acceptable to spontant ideas. Ideas like “let’s go NOW” and leaving her phone. Added to alcohol it exaggerates the intoxication. So yes – she could be capable of all these physical actions if drugged.
But it’s not the real issue. I put the roofie theory out there as a possibility, not a fact.

A couple of things in your last post worry me…
First: Your wife’s drinking indicates a problem. Too much and too often. Don’t think for a second that she can just stop drinking like that. She can remain sober for a couple of weeks, maybe months, but without some real help then it’s only a question of time before she slips again.
In the strongest of words, I suggest she looks for an active female-only AA support group.

Even if your drinking is in moderation then for the next months you too lay off it. Your attentions should be focused on reconciliation anyway (since that’s what you want).

What is it you find hard about thinking of this as her “simply cheating on you”? Why simply? It’s complex. The KEY ISSUE is why she left with him, where she went with him and what she consented to.
That’s what determines if this is rape or a plain old one-night-stand.

Her shame… this is precisely why you BOTH should seek professional help from rape-victim specialists. NOW.

BTW – I agree with twisted questions.
Treating this like an ONS if this is rape is wrong. Just like treating this like rape if it was an ONS is wrong.


M1965 posted 9/14/2017 12:10 PM

Sainyads,

Very sorry to hear what has happened. The important thing that leaps out at me here is that this must not be swept under the rug.

You say that the man who took your wife home is a friend of your wife's older brother? Then you need to talk to this older brother as soon as possible and tell him what his friend did. A big part of what stops this stuff from happening repeatedly is that predatory behaviour is exposed and recognised by people who can be friends of your marriage. I would hope that your brother in law is a friend of your marriage, and he can hopefully become a source of support for you.

I also think you need to go back to Jess, tell her what happened, and ask her what your wife said when she suddenly reappeared, an hour after the pub had shut. Would Jess have asked no questions, would your wife have just turned up, stumbled in, and said nothing? That seems hard to believe.

People around you need to know, because if it is just you and your wife trying to get through this, you will both struggle. If Jess is a good friend to your wife, her knowing the truth could help her to support your wife and be someone your wife can talk to. Depending on what he is like, your brother-in-law can become a support for you. What is important is that the guy who took your wife home should be exposed for what he does, because he is likely to keep trying to do this kind of thing until he faces consequences for it.

I know that your wife wants to hush it all up, but I think that is the worst thing to do. No, you don't broadcast it in the local paper, but you should tell people like your brother-in-law and your wife's close friends, people you trust are 'friends' of your marriage, so they can rally round, act as support, and keep their eyes on the predator in future.

Bigger's advice about investigating this more deeply is spot on. What is really important is that this become a line in the sand, an event so serious that it causes a permanent change in your wife's behaviour. She did it once before, and now again. You need to make it abundantly clear that even if you can get past this, it will be - to use an American term -"three strikes and she's out". That is important for you and your self-respect, and also to emphasise to her how serious her actions are.

As Bigger says, your wife needs to be delving into why she she left with the guy; simply saying that she was drunk does not cut it. It may not be 'fun' for either of you, but you have to go back to this, because the issue is whether, on some level, she did it because she wanted to. If that is the case, that needs to be hauled out into the sunlight and worked out between you. This is why her desire to just 'move on' makes it seem like she wants to avoid exploring this aspect.

It seems odd to me that instead of going straight home afterwards, she went to Jess's place. Did she need to talk something over with Jess before going home? Or was she trying to set up a cover story of going straight to Jess's from the pub? Either way, that indicates that her mind was working, and that she recognised the significance of what had happened. This is why a second talk with Jess is important for you.

Bigger also nailed the significance of your wife's drink problem. This incident has to trigger a change in the way the way pair of you approach it. It is a big problem, and it has to treated as one. No more nights in the pub, definitely no more 'girls' nights out', etc, etc. You have identified the fact that your wife cannot start drinking without going into a kamikaze crash dive, to the point where she becomes easy prey for any passing predator. That has to stop. And it is likely that whatever positive noises your wife is making, she is going to have a hard time with stopping in the long-term. Seek help with this, there are loads of support groups out there.

The way to not be naive is to keep asking questions, and to make sure that you are not either offering forgiveness based on lies and omissions, or presuming you know what happened when you don't have enough proof, and throwing accusations of rape at the predator. Wanting to save the marriage is in no way naive, but to save it, you need to know what you are saving it from. At the moment, what happened is not clear, and as Bigger suggests, getting your wife to a rape support group could help get more clarity in a sympathetic environment.

Treating this like an ONS if this is rape is wrong. Just like treating this like rape if it was an ONS is wrong.

Sums it up perfectly. Only when you have a better idea of what the true situation was, will you have a sound foundation to base a reconciliation on.

mezlabor posted 9/14/2017 13:18 PM

In answer to some other posts here. I understand that this could have been infidelity, I'm not proud to say this but I have been blacked out drunk before and not aware of what I was doing. Ive seen it happen to others too.

I agree with bigger this smells of a rophenol or other similar drug. This could have happened even if she was just blacked out drunk she would not be fully aware of what happened.

In most cases of infidelity I would have no hesitation about recommending moving forward with the process of D or R, but this is a sensitive case and if your wrong and she was raped you will do extensive damage to your marriage and her fragile pysche. This is why I feel its best, at the moment at least, to err on the side of caution here and treat this as rape until you have evidence otherwise.

Bigger is right at this point proving rape to the standards needed for a conviction are slim but as Bigger said these people are repeat offenders and he has probably done it to someone else and will do it again. Any information the police can get can help them in catching him before he victimizes too many people.

I urge you at this time to treat this seriously and once your wife is in IC and rehab for her alcoholism you can continue to find out of this was infidelity but right now, doing it right now after a potential rape can do some serious damage to her and to your marriage.

twisted posted 9/14/2017 15:59 PM

I will defer to Bigger's expertise and LEO experience, but the selective memory and able to walk from house to house in the middle of the night has me puzzled.
If this just happened Saturday night, then I think I would be looking for witnesses, talking with whatever bartender/ waitress was working, and all the other friends at the pub for more information.
Maybe your brother in law needs to have a visit to his friend and a nose to nose talk. Maybe he needs to go through his medicine cabinet while he's there.
Bigger, If Sainyards reported this to the police, explaining it as a possible rape, would they even do any investigation or questioning? ( Well shit, it's in the UK)

Bigger posted 9/15/2017 10:23 AM

I hate giving infidelity any discount. The only person that really might know if this was rape or an ONS is your wife. Heck… even the OM might honestly believe this was not rape. Keeping in mind your desire to remain married and that this is a family with 4 kids and the immense seriousness of rape I want to err on the side of caution on this matter. Based on what you have shared and MAINLY on your wife’s forthrightness in confessing (there was no way you could have known of the original incident) I am willing to set the infidelity-issue on side-burner for now.

I don’t know if the police will initiate a full investigation but I am certain that they will listen and take the accusations seriously. They won’t kick you out but I am certain that at some point an officer will get you a cup of coffee (or tea over there) and as kindly as possible ask you if you really want to do this.

If we look at some commonly accepted stats, then it’s estimated that out of every 100 rapes only 30 are reported. Only 6 will lead to arrests and 1 eventually make it to court with about 2/3leading to a guilty sentence.
Majority of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows and has an acceptable reason to trust.
Both the FBI and Scotland Yard has done recent research that indicates false accusations are under 5%. It depends on your definition of what’s “false”, most older research had that number a lot higher.

One can dispute the reliability of some of the numbers and maybe even who’s to blame (there are still those that think a woman that got too drunk was asking to be raped), but the odds are really stacked against anyone reporting rape.

I think most police departments really WANT to investigate rape in as genteel and thorough manner as possible. But a basis of police research is to prove the guilt OR THE INNOCENCE of the accused. Therefore, they must ask the victim some hard questions that probably make the victim feel like she is being accused. It’s a tough process.

I think I will stick to my suggestion you look for a local rape helpline like this one:
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/
(This link posted with mod approval)

It would be best if you and your wife phone together. Like I have already told you these guys have heard the “my wife was raped. I feel like she cheated on me” story, know it’s seriousness and have coping methods for you. They take this seriously and can really help.
If she’s not willing to call or if she wants to rugsweep then YOU make the call. Outline your situation and ask for guidance. These people know the seriousness of not dealing with rape – irrespective of it being reported to the police or investigated. They focus on the effect it has on the individual and the family.

Last time this happened… that incident a couple of years ago…
Do you really think your wife didn’t promise herself never to drink again after that?
I am willing to place money on that she woke up that morning and felt guilty and ashamed and had a very full and honest intention of remaining sober. Just like she woke up last Sunday.
To your wife’s benefit then this time she realized she couldn’t carry the secret. That is possibly the brightest point in this whole mess. But she probably STILL thinks she can cut the drinking on her own.

Friend – Alcoholism is a real disease. To be an alcoholic you don’t need to be constantly drunk, wear a bin-liner and sleep on the streets. Although the amount you drink can be a determining factor in alcoholism then another clear indicator is how you drink and what you do drunk.
My wife has a very good friend who is a recovering alcoholic. We were quite surprised when she told us she was entering rehab because we hadn’t noticed her problem. Turns out she would only drink several times per year but when she did there was an immense risk of her crossing the line and waking up in a bed beside someone other than her husband. After rehab she attended a female-only AA group where many shared the same behavior.

Alcoholism is also a disease that can immensely affect those that are closes to the alcoholic. Chances are it will demand some possibly temporary – possibly permanent changes for you. Like maybe you support your wife by running a dry house and staying away from pubs. That’s OK – it’s not a big sacrifice because you fill your time with family- and marriage friendly activities instead.
Once again I strongly suggest she seeks AA guidance and that you look into Al Anon.


I absolutely think you need to confront OM in some way. I think you should let her brother know what happened. You can do so on a realistic, factual non-accusing way:

“Your friend had sex with your sister – my wife. She came to me and told me without me having the slightest clue or reason to suspect her. She says she told him no and to stop numerous times but was too drunk to resist. We even suspect she was date-drugged but we can’t prove that. I am certain that he will say she wanted it, but it’s her word against his. Even IF she consented then your friend KNEW she was married and KNEW she was drunk and should have shown her, me and YOU the respect to have refused her sex. I want you to know about this because to me this man is not welcome in my world in any way or form.”


Finally:
Friend – you are totally free not to respond back to us. I think we can help, but we are an infidelity-site. I’m suggesting this was most likely rape and you are better off dealing with this as rape. That’s why the rape-hotline and the AA and Al Anon suggestions. If you don’t feel we can help… fine. But DO NOT ignore those two other places.

However – this MIGHT have been a drunken ONS. If so then a critical part in her AA work and 12 step is the part where she lists those she has to make amends for and why. You should probably be high on that list and at that point this being infidelity should be clear. If she takes her sobriety seriously then she KNOWS she can’t carry on pretending this was rape if it wasn’t.

I wish you the best of luck and pray you have the courage to take action. A lot is in your hands right now. We are always here if you need us.

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