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I have a gut feeling.

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ChangeMaker posted 9/20/2017 12:58 PM

Hey UM,

You are doing well (even though you probably don't think so).

If a "Pretty Little Liars" discussion comes up again (you'd divorce me if I had an affair), don't tell her you will. She has no motive to confess in that situation, because if she does, she's been told that you will divorce her.

Instead, play along - say "I don't know. It would depend on how honest you were with me. Nothing is black and white".

Give her the rope... then hang her with it... or save her with it... you can decide later.

Unsureman posted 9/20/2017 12:59 PM

" I would go ahead and plant the VAR's in the house and under her carseat before the conversation. If she is having an affair she will be itching to talk to OM right away."

Randy I will plant the Var in the house and car, my wife is slowly unraveling over this.

Timeless loss- Yes he is a player, him and his wife have an open marriage, I know that his wife is bisexual.

Hellfire – the other woman is definitely affair partner I saw with my own eyes.

[This message edited by Unsureman at 1:02 PM, September 20th (Wednesday)]

Ginac posted 9/20/2017 13:20 PM

Sorry I misunderstood, UM. I read it wrong.

Nonetheless, I would still be tight lipped with your friend. If his wife is aware of the affair and is friends with your wife, the OW, and the OM, she probably would clue ALL of them in on what's about to go down if she gets wind of it.

sending strength.

Sharkman posted 9/20/2017 13:37 PM

Shark man, no I have Verizon and they don't provide the details

You need to get Dr Fone and run text recovery on her phone this afternoon.

And Michigan was spot on. You need to speak with her while taking her phone (have it in your possession first) and let her know that you do not view infidelity as a deal breaker but you do view lying as a deal breaker. This gives her an "out" to admit something (likely be trickle truth).

Of course infidelity can still be a deal breaker, just don't tell her that.

MidnightRun posted 9/20/2017 13:56 PM

Just curious.

Why would you allow your wife to travel with--or even hang around--such lowlifes?

twisted posted 9/20/2017 14:24 PM

I only kicked the can down the road to now. There is no more road.

Yes, that's the attitude it takes!

Unsureman- I have Verizon, although it's a business account. It doesn't show the actual message but it does have the date, time, and number.
Also if it's a text or pic/video message.

[This message edited by twisted at 2:28 PM, September 20th (Wednesday)]

M1965 posted 9/20/2017 15:18 PM

USM,

You say:

“I will meet my friend Saturday find out everything then speak to the OM.”

This occurs to me:

What if the friend does not want to discuss it when he is sober? What if he says, “Oh, that was just the beer talking. Nah, I was just kidding. Come on…Your wife? You know she wouldn’t cheat? You shouldn’t listen to me.” You are rather counting on him to provide a full history, whether hearsay or not, which he may not be willing to give when he realises what you may do with the information. This is not to say that you shouldn’t ask him, just that you need to brace yourself for him panicking and clamming up without a gallon of beer inside him.

Ginac makes some good points about this guy too:

“I would listen to him, but don't clue him in on your plans to confront om or have your wife followed by a PI.

Since he is the husband of the OW, he might share information (even if it's unwittingly) with his wife, who might tip off your ww.”

I really think you need to try and be as low-key about getting info from the guy as possible, unless you know he is willing to talk.

As for speaking to the OM, you need to have realistic expectations of what that is likely to achieve. If he and his wife are in an open marriage, and they basically lead a swingers’ lifestyle, to the point where he told you to not make a fuss of your wife having sex with another woman in the hot tub, what kind of mentality are you going to be dealing with? If you start asking him questions, he is likely to tell you to take a chill pill, and to take the issue up with your wife. Unless you are just going to read him the riot act, he has very little to gain by telling you anything that might spoil his fun in future. Sorry to put it that way, but that’s how he is likely to see it. If you press the matter, he may say something like, “She was never forced to do anything, anything she did was of her own free will. Why are you hassling me?”

It things go down that way, you may not have much to go on before you say…


“Sunday when my wife returns we will have our come to Jesus talk.”

“Randy- If the evidence is weak my plan is to have a weak confrontation then use a Var to record her conversations and see who she calls and what is said.”

Honestly, USM, I think you should bide your time before a confrontation, because the second the sh*t hits the fan, the bunch of them are likely to start comparing notes and asking who said what to you. Therefore, you really need to have enough evidence to satisfy you before you actually confront your wife, because after you do, I am sure that the whole crowd will pretty much stop talking to you, thereby cutting off a source of information. So you need to have all the info you need, and your ducks in a row, before you make your intentions obvious via a confrontation.

Also, bear in mind that a confrontation is likely to change the dynamic of your relationship with your wife, because up to now she has felt free to misbehave, in the knowledge that she will get away with it, or just say she was drunk. Once you change that, and she realises she faces actual consequences, she will either reform and fly right, or become more furtive and guarded. If it is the latter, you need to be prepared for that, in terms of how you will monitor it, and how you will deal with it emotionally.

Or…She might come to her senses if she values the marriage, and she realises what she stands to throw away for some cheap thrills. I don’t know your wife, you say she is already unravelling, maybe she will back away from the slippery slope she is on.

My point is, you need to choose the timing of the confrontation carefully, and do it at a point that is the best for you, and the plans you have made for the future. Confronting too soon may be ineffective, may drive things underground, and may get your social set clamming up whenever you are around.

However, that does not mean you cannot take immediate action prior to any confrontation.

For a start, I think you should reduce the amount of contact you have with that toxic crowd. It is obvious that your wife cannot be trusted around them, and they have different boundaries to you, so why can’t you withdraw from that social set? They have already proved that they are not friends of your marriage, so why socialise with them? Similarly, this Napa trip should be the last time she does a road trip with the free love auxiliary. That is just tempting fate way too much. Have you discussed with her the idea that she shouldn’t go? Considering her track record with the OM, and then her hot tub performance, it is surprising that this trip ever got the okay in the first place.

You can ramp up your surveillance, which you say you already plan to do, with VARs in her car and various key rooms at home. You may need a PI to monitor what she does and where she goes when you are working. That can be an expensive and gruelling process to go through, but it can also be vital to your peace of mind, and to verify that her actions match what she is telling you.

You can have some carefully planned, pointed conversations with her to get her views on fidelity in marriage, swinging, honesty, integrity, and so on. The best way to do that would be to think them through beforehand, and to conduct them with an air of detachment, so that you do not get drawn into giving much away, or worse, getting emotional and saying too much before you are ready to confront.

Your wife will not miss the significance of what you are asking, but if you keep it all theoretical – what about this, what do you think of that – then it is not a direct confrontation or accusing her personally of anything. However, it will have an effect, because she will start wondering why you are asking, and where you are going with it.

Up until now, she has been complacent and has believed she can do what she likes. Talks like this will help to put across the message that you are more tuned in to the subject than she has given you credit for, thereby rattling her confidence to do ‘wrong’, without giving her any hint that you are actively ‘watching’ her like never before.

This one is rather unsubtle, but what might her response be to a question like, “If a person keeps being caught cheating, why do you think their spouse would want to stay married to them?”

Like I say, not subtle, but it’s not a direct accusation, just a discussion about outlook. Whatever she says, it is likely to be enlightening, but you should stay cool and detached, and respond with something bland like, “That’s interesting”. If she turns the question back on you, an answer like, “I’m still thinking about it”, will have the desired effect of moving the ground beneath her feet, and making her feel less confident about doing whatever she likes, regardless of your feelings.

You could find that doing these kinds of things might mean a confrontation is not needed, if she starts to change her ways, and your evidence does not make a showdown unavoidable.

These are just my thoughts, to take or leave. Everyone here wants the best for you.

Unsureman posted 9/20/2017 15:46 PM

This occurs to me:

What if the friend does not want to discuss it when he is sober? What if he says, “Oh, that was just the beer talking. Nah, I was just kidding. Come on…Your wife? You know she wouldn’t cheat? You shouldn’t listen to me.” You are rather counting on him to provide a full history, whether hearsay or not, which he may not be willing to give when he realises what you may do with the information. This is not to say that you shouldn’t ask him, just that you need to brace yourself for him panicking and clamming up without a gallon of beer inside him.

Ginac makes some good points about this guy too:


M1965 You may be right, but my friend likes to drink and I plan to play cool and just let him talk. I will be very subtle on how I get the information. I plan to be very patient and let the information come naturally .

As for speaking to the OM, you need to have realistic expectations of what that is likely to achieve. If he and his wife are in an open marriage, and they basically lead a swingers’ lifestyle, to the point where he told you to not make a fuss of your wife having sex with another woman in the hot tub, what kind of mentality are you going to be dealing with? If you start asking him questions, he is likely to tell you to take a chill pill, and to take the issue up with your wife. Unless you are just going to read him the riot act, he has very little to gain by telling you anything that might spoil his fun in future. Sorry to put it that way, but that’s how he is likely to see it. If you press

The OM I will wait and see how the conversation with my friend goes before I speak with him. I just want this all to be over .
Up until now, she has been complacent and has believed she can do what she likes. Talks like this will help to put across the message that you are more tuned in to the subject than she has given you credit for, thereby rattling her confidence to do ‘wrong’, without giving her any hint that you are actively ‘watching’ her like never before.

Yes you are correct, I have always been good old Mr Reliable easy to trick with her Jedi mind tricks. No more this honestly has affected me terribly and I am concerned for my own mental health. I always question if it is just me am I making something out of nothing.

Nooneleft posted 9/20/2017 16:07 PM

unsure. I admire your strength to gather all the info before you confront. I did not have the patience to do this. Very smart indeed.
If she is having an affair (which I feel she is) its not like a weekend or a week is going to change the facts..... just enable you to collect your information.
Good luck on this hell of a ride.

Dismayed2012 posted 9/20/2017 16:23 PM

Good move on the PI and VAR. If she's getting rattled then she might decide to lay low for a while. In the mean time take her name off of your accounts and separate your finances and such from hers. Also, consult a lawyer right away. Learn what divorce looks like; educate yourself before the fact so that you can behave intelligently and not get yourself in a worse mess than she's made for you. Sorry that you find yourself in this situation. Take care of yourself.

Unsureman posted 9/21/2017 08:10 AM

Well she has left for her trip, PI is in place, but will only be at their hotel Friday and Saturday nights they are having dinner. Someone here said that she will turn into a good girl and that is exactly what is happening. She told me how much she loves me this morning before she left and was weirdly affectionate. Later at the airport she texted me again saying she loves and misses me.
I have been playing all of the mind movies in my head over the full length of our marriage and there are a lot of red flags. She has no boundaries and she never would have tolerated me doing what she did.
Someone asked why I let her hang out with these miscreants .
I don't we live in a small community and see each other all of the time. We have pulled away since the hot tub incident, but run into each other at functions. I have no doubt that there was an affair, I don't know if it is still ongoing. My WW will pay a hefty price for this betrayal.

Briseis posted 9/21/2017 08:43 AM

Unsureman: Just wanted to throw my support behind you with the others. I'm glad you are surveilling for more info before you confront, but at the same time I'm dreading what it'll do to you emotionally. Some shit you just can't unknow, but I suppose that bridge was already crossed with the hot tub incident. Understanding the person who was supposed to be your best friend can lie and betray so much is beyond devastating. I've been there along with everyone else on this thread. I'm so, so sorry you're going through this right now. It's such an isolating, lonely experience. Is there anyone IRL you can talk to about this in person who will have your back?? You definitely have this place to tap into whenever you want, but there is something about having a person around that is so helpful.

As for this:

I am at a loss as to why my wife would cheat, I am 6'1" and weigh about 225lbs , I am very fit and workout at a gym four or five times a week. I consider myself attractive and a good catch, that is why this has hit me so hard. I never thought that it was in the realm of probability , perhaps I am just an arrogant man, . Why would she risk our great life for this nonsense.

I'm slim, have had a perpetual six-pack since I was born, was a dancer, and a fitness addict, and my WH still felt the urge to check out other options. It's crazy, but even being a "catch" doesn't insulate anyone from experiencing this shit show.

Anyway, we're here for you, dude.

ChangeMaker posted 9/21/2017 08:50 AM

Why would you allow your wife to travel with--or even hang around--such lowlifes?
I don't think it's my job to "allow" or "forbid" my partner/spouse to hang around with anyone.

She has made a decision - to hang around with these people, who DEMONSTRATE low moral standards (according to your measure) knowing that it makes you feel bad. This is who she is - she's SHOWN you. Now you make a decision - either accept it and carry on or reject it and leave the relationship.

I might be a little less black and white if she had no idea that her behaviour is hurting you... but she's hanging out with an affair partner and her swinger husband! She's dancing with the swinger husband and sneaking away with him right in front of you! These are the actions of a person who can't understand that they're hurting someone, or the actions of someone who just doesn't care.

Asking her to change who she is not a realistic option. She can never be happy living a disingenuous life, and your relationship can never flourish while either of you is unhappy or unfulfilled.

You can't teach a dog to be a cat - not with all the Milk-Bones in the world.

Sharkman posted 9/21/2017 08:58 AM

I'd ask the mods to move this to Just Found Out. Many of the heavy hitters in there do not check this forum.

M1965 posted 9/21/2017 09:01 AM

USM,

It is good to want to gather as much actual evidence as possible, and you can see what comes of the PI and your talk with your friend on Saturday. However, an awful lot of betrayed spouses seem to want to be 'square dealers', and only mention what they can 100% prove. In many cases, that can be difficult. In yours, much of what you are dealing with is rumour or hearsay, coupled with your gut feeling.

It seems to me that if you are going to draw a line in the sand with your wife, you can definitely present any hard evidence that you have, but you can also play things a bit 'cute'.

You can say, "I know what's been going on. I'm tired of the dishonesty. Now, are you going to be honest with me? Is there anything you want to tell me?"

If she responds with something along the lines of, "I don't know what you're talking about. What do you know?"

You can reply, "Do you really think I'm stupid? That I can't see what's been going on? That I'm deaf to what people are saying about you? This is a small community. How long did you think you would get away with it? So I'm asking you again, is there anything you want to tell me? I need to know if I can trust you."

This switches the onus from you having to obtain, compile, and present a lot of evidence that may be hard if not impossible to get, and instead puts the spotlight firmly on her, by saying you know a number of things and you want to see if she is honest enough to tell you about them. The whole point of a 'test' like that is honesty, so even if you had a truckload of documented evidence, you would not be revealing it.

It also gets around the problem many BS's find, which is WS's who will only admit to what can be proven. I think a more productive approach for you would be to tell her you 'know' lots of stuff, and it is up to her to prove her honesty by owning up to it. You can pepper it with any actual evidence you have, for authenticity, but you are dealing with someone who may have been quite sly, tricky, and underhand in what she has done, so why not be a bit tricky yourself?

It's not a court of law, where all your evidence has to be in numbered bags on a desk; so why not take the angle of being an angry husband who 'knows' a number of disturbing things, asking his wife if she is going to come clean about them? It is not for you to display all your evidence, it is for your wife to start displaying her honesty.

If you don't like the approach, fair enough. I'm just trying to think of how you can get as much as possible out of her, rather than you showing her a couple of pieces of evidence, her grudgingly admitting to just them, and a slew of other stuff not coming to the surface.

Oh, and one other thing. I think you should be silent all weekend and not respond to any of her text messages. Keep her unsettled. Sorry, maybe I'm a horrible person for suggesting 'mind games', but I think shaking her confidence will be a good thing, given the direction you are travelling in.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:05 AM, September 21st (Thursday)]

Unsureman posted 9/21/2017 09:02 AM

Unsureman: Just wanted to throw my support behind you with the others. I'm glad you are surveilling for more info before you confront, but at the same time I'm dreading what it'll do to you emotionally. Some shit you just can't unknow, but I suppose that bridge was already crossed with the hot tub incident. Understanding the person who was supposed to be your best friend can lie and betray so much is beyond devastating. I've been there along with everyone else on this thread. I'm so, so sorry you're going through this right now. It's such an isolating, lonely experience. Is there anyone IRL you can talk to about this in person who will have your back?? You definitely have this place to tap into whenever you want, but there is something about having a person around that is so helpful.

Briseis, I would love to confront her and get this over, but she will never admit this without irrefutable evidence. Yes some shit you can't unhear or in my case unsee. I said earlier that this has taken a toll on me mentally, I think about this betrayal almost everyday for the last five years. I have read Waitedtoolongs threads and I was able to relate.
I'm slim, have had a perpetual six-pack since I was born, was a dancer, and a fitness addict, and my WH still felt the urge to check out other options. It's crazy, but even being a "catch" doesn't insulate anyone from experiencing this shit show.

Anyway, we're here for you, dude.

.
I have always been fit I take great care of myself eat right, watch my weight(full time job) an I love to lift weights. It has not stopped her from this path.

Michigan posted 9/21/2017 09:14 AM

Someone here said that she will turn into a good girl and that is exactly what is happening.

Unsureman

That was me.

Unless your wife is an idiot the PI will find nothing. Your wife knows that she’s playing for big stakes because you treat her like a queen. She will be walking the straight and narrow for a couple of months.

IMO you have two ways of finding out:
1. Monitor her communications (VAR, key logger, etc.). She should be discussing with others her problems and how to keep you in the dark.
2. Time passes and she becomes comfortable enough to resume her old ways. For example you pulled away from the hot tub couple then time passed and he cut in on you to dance with your wife.

You need to act as if her good girl act is working. The more noise you make the more careful she’ll be. Make her comfortable and get your evidence. The worst position to be in is for a PA to be a deal breaker and to be 99% sure it was a PA.

[This message edited by Michigan at 9:28 AM, September 21st (Thursday)]

Briseis posted 9/21/2017 09:24 AM

I guess I was lucky in the respect of having a WS who confessed (albeit with much trickle truth). I think I'd want definitive proof as well, since I was confessed to and I still wanted more details.

I hope you're able to find whatever info you need to make the decisions you need to make.

wa9872 posted 9/21/2017 09:37 AM

not sure if this has been mentioned before. Make sure you talk to a lawyer because once you confront things will escalate quickly. you should not back down and escalate to divorce and MAKE sure everyone knows her history. protect yourself, your assets and your children's future. BTW, you really don't need proof. you already know she does not respect you. NEVER reveal your sources. NEVER. good luck

twisted posted 9/21/2017 09:50 AM

Unless your wife is an idiot the PI will find nothing.

I don't know, unless UM has slipped up and she suspects, I figure she knows she's out of town and out of sight and would not imagine he would hire a PI. That's something most WS do not consider a real possibility unless they are obvious.
Whether or not he can actually get anything depends on the PI's talent and opportunity, But I am impressed at the initiative to hire one.

You said this is a girls trip only? No men? Next time she checks in with you, I'd casually confirm that. And record everything.
So here's the question, if the PI reports back that the OM is also on the trip, or something even more involved, what is you intent?

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