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Bigger posted 3/21/2018 07:57 AM

Skin

I agree that my use of “acceptable” wasn’t correct, but by grouping affairs into recoverable and non-recoverable you are quantifying infidelity and thereby pain.
For someone suffering from discovering their spouse had an ONS that’s insulting.

By your definition one of the founders of this site is a truly sick individual and the other founder was wrong in staying in their marriage.

Look Skin – I remember one woman that divorced her cheating husband. She posted here some 10 years ago. His cheating? She caught him with his hand on another woman’s behind. Both fully clothed waiting for service at a bar. For that woman, this incident was enough.

Then we have our much-respected moderator WifeHad5 and his wife who contributes tremendously to this site. They managed to reconcile. Maybe it’s all a façade and she’s “truly sick”, but then it’s Oscar-level acting that’s been going on for a very long time.

It’s all based on what the individual can accept and is willing to do. Generalizations don’t apply here.


hopefulmother posted 3/21/2018 08:53 AM

Snow Day here in PA. I decided to check out the thread my husband brought up last night. Our general rule is not to post on the same thread. Yours really brought tears to my eyes. There is nothing wrong in doing what you know is right for you. Even after divorce, you will need to heal. Hopefully, my input can help put some things into perspective and maybe help you in the future.

Skins21:

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?
I don't place much value on sex. But, I was a CSA victim and I believe that makes a difference. I will tell you that I did lose the passion I once had for my husband before the affair started. Not after Dday. I noticed the change in him right away. I do place value in intimacy. For me it means something different. Trust and sharing. I get more enjoyment out of cuddles and holding hands. Knowing that my husband has my back. Sex is sex. My husband tried to make his affair physical. I am not sure if any thing I tell you would make a difference. I am not a male BS and my husband didn't have a PA.

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?
What factored the most? Keeping my family together. Giving my children a chance at a normal life as much as possible. It was the responsibility and role that I chose as a mother. It wasn't that I owed it to them. It was that I acted on my own set guidelines, morals, and values on my definition of a mother. My wedding vows meant my life. "In sickness and in health. In good times and bad." I made a promise to try when I said "I do". Staying and trying to give that chance was in my character to do so. My character is my foundation. I felt no love when I chose to stay. That came back later on.

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?
I do after 6 years of work from him to show me he is trustworthy again. We started over. He rebuilt trust just like any other friend. Most importantly; Trust really isn't about the other person. It is about you. You must trust yourself first. I knew that no matter what he chose to do in the future, I would be just fine and it would be his loss ultimately. I have that much self confidence to know my worth. I have self respect to know when to leave. He became a guest in my life. Not the center of it. Now, he is my partner.

I can't reinvest in someone who has the capacity to hurt someone they "love" in such a way.
Some people don't know how to love or know love. Many people that are capable of love weren't always that way. Many children have a great capacity to love, but are also very self absorbed. They learn as they get older. FOO is important in the life of the wayward. I believe many just never learned lessons the BS have. They never grew up. Once, a person does...then they are capable of love. They are capable of giving. They are no longer takers. My husband always had object love. I know through his actions, he isn't like that anymore. Takers have object love. They place value on things/people that fill their needs. If a child is capable of learning and changing....then so can adults that never learned as a child. I have seen that work with three men. My grandfather, my husband, and a friend of ours that also cheated on his wife.

Today she's in IC, reading, rediscovering herself, off the toxic antidepressants she was on during the entire length of the affair, lost lots of weight and is now the person that I remember marrying.
The affair was her crisis. This happened to her. I can't begin to explain how you will feel in 4 or 5 years. The awareness you will have. You are in too much pain to see it. This had nothing to do with you. You were unfortunately an innocent bystander that was in the way of her going down in her trials and tribulations. She was always lost or she lost herself. When you go through healing, the way you feel will change. I had the anger and hate with the best of them. I moved to pity. Now, I have compassion. No one chooses this life with a sound mind. No one chooses to be so full of self loathing that they will do unspeakable things. It breaks my heart to think of the pain a wayward must be in to do the things they do to relieve it. To risk so much and to relinquish their self and soul.

The sad part is that I just don't feel the same about her anymore and I know that I never will again. At least I'm not willing to wait around for 3 or more years to find out.
That is okay. I didn't feel the same way about my husband either. I lost a level of love and passion for him that I once had. A level of intimacy. I am alright with that. I gained things that I put more value on. I gained more respect for him. When the going got tuff, he dug in and did it. He proved himself to my family and he made himself worth the temporary pain of staying. He changed for himself and for us. I gained so much more wisdom, strengths, and "fruits of the spirits" because of this. For far too long I allowed my life to revolve around him instead of where it should have been. If I hadn't, the fall wouldn't have been so far or great. I nurtured him on a unhealthy level and I have learned how to step back and require people to stand on their own two feet.

How long do you really want to wait to find out if your WS is one of these rare people who can change for the better?
I waited two years to see some real change. I think I would have waited three. It was so long ago, I am not really sure. Everything just happened at once around the time he TT. During the two years, things had to progress forward though. One small step at a time added up.

It appears to me that too much focus has been on your wife and the marriage. Nothing is going to work till you focus on yourself and your healing. Till you feel at peace again. Till you feel strong again in spirit. If you need to divorce to get there, that is okay. If you are a reader, a book that helped me get over the loss was A Grace Disguisedby Jerry Sittser. As a Christian, there was lessons from the Bible that helped me to move forward and heal.

I wish you peace and will be praying for you and your wife.

truthsetmefree posted 3/21/2018 09:05 AM

I am deeply disappointed by some of the responses on this thread...and many from people I have long respected. It's not because you may have a different opinion than the OP (or some of those that have agreed with his sentiment at large)...but it's because you have both focused instead on what you perceive as a generalization...and the arguments that you have presented are unfairly emotionally weighted in many ways. Skins has been grouped into being an offense to MH and DS - or other long-term respectable members, an affront to anyone that has a successful reconciliation, accused of making repeated generalizations - which he has several times qualified what to me was clearly an emotional initial post (and subsequently then been challenged on those qualifications), and used to serve as a "poster boy" example of why generalizations are not allowed.

What the hell happened to compassion??? What about the empathy that maybe skins21 or some of the others of us have suffered further injurious infidelity experiences that compound the hurt - such as a false R.? Something many of you that are throwing stones about generalizations can more easily do so simply because you don't have to hear, recognize, and intuitively know the very large pain of false reconciliation. I will not throw stones at the seeming confidence that some of you have in what you think you will do should you world implode again. Because I had the same perspective at one time...I had no idea the different aspect of the pain that comes with a false reconciliation. But I will point out as Mike Tyson once said - Everybody has a plan...until they get punched in the face.

So...can I recognize the point that there could be some generalizations? Sure. But knowing the immense pain of false reconciliation, I'm personally hearing many of your responses along the lines of, "Oh dear...I do believe you are getting blood on the white carpet" when it's clear the man has essentially been disemboweled.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 11:04 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

steadychevy posted 3/21/2018 09:18 AM

truthsetmefree: Here, Here!

cobalt77 posted 3/21/2018 09:26 AM

Hi Skins21. I know a lot of people are giving you shit for this thread, but I can relate and I agree with you. I too had a sexless LTE with my wayward while he was blinking other people but even worse. At least you got a marriage out of it (any kids?) and some lame sex 2-4 times a month. I got literally NO SEX at all from early July 2016 up to the very end, recently. Granted, we did have a half year break in the middle of this relationship and the last 4 months were a LDR with him being physically inaccessible. But that doesn't explain all the time that he WAS with me and turned me down for anything beyond 2nd base. He never admitted his affairs to me either, where he was giving sex to other girls that he wouldn't give me. His friends likely knew but hid it from me, except for a few subtle hints near the very end, when XBF was distance-wise far away from them.

Skins21, I see you've gotten more sympathy, particularly for your unmet sex needs, than I have. I honestly believe the different treatment is due to our different genders. I have literally been called a "meat puppet" and other sexist, gross, derogatory names by a few (but not all) SI members simply for expressing my need to have sexual intercourse after a nearly 2yr drought, AND while I'm single! Keep in mind I'm STILL sexless and celibate, still, so now I get the worst of both worlds: the sexual frustration AND the unfair slut shaming for simply wanting "a" single sex episode. Overall I have had my sex needs disregarded and dismissed by some on this site, and told I should take up individual therapy instead. (Ha, I've BEEN in therapy since before meeting XBF and guess what, I'm still sexually frustrated!) Although you've had mud slung at you by some in this thread, I'm glad they've at least empathized with how horrible it is that your wife sex deprived you while giving the sex to OM. I feel like men on here get less slack for wanting sex while still married (constituting a RA) than I've gotten for wanting sex post breakup from someone I was never even married to.

I think you raise great points when you say that if 1yr of failed R feels like a life waste, then why would you want to invest the estimated 3-5 yrs more for the mere chance of WW becoming fully remorseful and reconciled?? Why waste away those years? I agree! It's even worse for me because I don't have marriage or kids under my belt yet, and I've now approached my 30s as a childless woman, aka old maid territory. I already waited 6mos with no sex for a guy to hopefully want to be intimate with me again (ha never happened!), just to get dumped. Then I waited 7 more mos through our breakup for him to take care of some issues in his life and get himself together, because I was always told that it's worth it to wait for someone you love, and although we did get back together eventually he STILL wouldn't have sex with me and was cheating more than ever. If my goal is kids, it would be very contradictory for me to patiently wait 3-5yrs to "work through" his infidelities and intimacy issues (aka his Madonna-whore complex), since no sex = no pregnancy obviously. My bio clock is already ticking faster than average because I have infertility problems that will most likely shorten my window of time to have kids. (A cousin had the same thing as me by age 30. Thankfully she already had 2 kids early on in her 20s because by the time she tried for another baby in her 30s, nothing worked, despite multiple ivf attempts and lots of money spent on ivf) Why would I want to waste away my 30s waiting to "do hard work" for someone who isnt my husband or baby's father, who might never be those things to me??

Skins21, do you have kids? I don't remember you mentioning them if you do. If so, did the cheating start before or after the kids came along?

[This message edited by cobalt77 at 9:45 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

hopefulmother posted 3/21/2018 09:42 AM

Maybe we can settle the other debate of generalizations by simply stating that everyone is capable of change, not everyone can choose it. I chose to ignore the tone of the thread because I can see your pain and I also know from experience in my M. I believe that many readers will not put so much stock in just one statement made by someone in disappointment and pain and the tone is not a threat. Hopefully though, it allows those that are in false R and whose wayward spouses are not stepping up their game to re-evaluate their current R and to do what is right for them.

sassylee posted 3/21/2018 09:44 AM

Meaning not much emotional/mental trauma has occurred, there wasn't the most severe betrayal and breach of trust and the affair didn't get to the level of a relationship with the affair partner.

This is insulting and demeaning to many members. How can anyone tell another member how to feel after the destruction of their marriage? Has Skins life imploded? He hasn't shared a new dday - a new horrific event - he's too busy telling everyone else what to do.

Skins - why aren't you discussing YOUR PAIN??? Why are you so hell bent on discussing and comparing everyone else's??? That requires some digging I think.

sisoon posted 3/21/2018 09:55 AM

** posting as a member **

I find it very difficult to have compassion for a person who has called me a liar at least 3 times, for a person who has been told several times that posting about his own sitch is fine but over-generalizing isn't and who nevertheless keeps over-generalizing.

** posting as a guide **

skins, In therapy, whenever I generalized, my therapist always brought me back to what I was thinking and feeling. If I didn't do that, I was told, I could not release the pain.

That's a general rule for at least some therapists. If you're in pain, and if you want to get out of pain, you need to address your own pain directly.

Generalizing distances you from your pain, and you can't release it from a distance. If you really want out of infidelity, you'll have to stop generalizing.

In addition, you have before you evidence that your ideas about R are don't come close to matching real life experience. If you want out of infidelity, you'll need to keep in touch with reality, even if it doesn't match your preconceptions.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:58 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

Bigger posted 3/21/2018 10:02 AM

All valid points Truthsetmefree.
I tend to be direct and confrontational if required. I do have compassion for Skins situation, but I don’t have compassion for generalizations that can hurt others in comparable situations that might be battling with the choice of reconciling or not. I don’t think I have directly accused Skin of anything, but pointed out that if he sticks to his line of thought then he is implying certain things. I have never been big in supporting the journey of people headed towards a cliff, but can be vocal in getting them to turn.

One of the biggest changes that has taken place here on SI over the last 12 months is a “burn the witch” mentality that has become very loud and prevalent on the JFO forum. I have seen dozens of threads where a betrayed husband opens his heart to us only to get hammered with that his wife is the pan-ultimate b@thc, the worst case ever, the situation non-recoverable, any attempt at reconciliation a sign of weakness. The BS isn’t given a choice. He has no option. I feel generalizations like R is never worth it… well… they simply feed the fire.

As has been said – this site is about surviving infidelity. It’s not about reconciliation or divorce but it’s not about remaining in infidelity. To-date – over 10 years since I signed up – I still haven’t found a third path to survive infidelity. The only paths I know are R or D. To eliminate one path right off the bat… well… that’s not constructive.


SisterMilkshake posted 3/21/2018 10:03 AM

truthsetmefree, so there should be exceptions from guidelines if one is in a great deal of pain? Wouldn't that be the majority here at SI on any given day? P.S. There was no smugness in my expressing what I think I would do if I found I had been in false reconciliation. I said I believe I would divorce immediately but I also know that there would be a lot of pain associated with the false reconciliation and the process of divorce. Maybe even more than the first d-day, IDK. However, skins21 is not you and his situation is different.

maybe skins21 or some of the others of us have suffered further injurious infidelity experiences that compound the hurt - such as a false R.?
He came to the conclusion that the infidelity was a dealbreaker for him. And is trying to insist that everyone follow his lead and that it must be a dealbreaker for everyone.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:02 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

skins21 posted 3/21/2018 10:25 AM

why aren't you discussing YOUR PAIN??? Why are you so hell bent on discussing and comparing everyone else's???

I have discussed my personal pain in my original thread and several others as well as with several members who have offered support.

Why compare and share my experience? I feel it's important for people who have just found out the tough road that lies ahead. I'm a business analyst so I've dissected my experience from every angle and with many close people personally, I've read hundreds of others' affair stories on this site and other sites and am offering my observations/conclusions. Just with anything else on this site, take what you want and leave the rest. If I can save some people a year or more of emotional torture then it's well worth it IMO.

In addition, you have before you evidence that your ideas about R are don't come close to matching real life experience. If you want out of infidelity, you'll need to keep in touch with reality, even if it doesn't match your preconceptions.

I beg to differ on your opinion. I see very few "reformed" wayward spouses who have successfully reconciled the marriage and now are living in an authentic, happy and healthy marriage with a BS who has no trust issues or thinks about the affair any longer.

The truth is that the mental/emotional trauma from an affair lasts a lifetime. That's something I didn't fully understand at first. The mind movies, recurring thought loops and emotional pain that I've suffered have permanently changed me. There's no going back to who I was before or recovering completely from the damage my WW has done to me mentally. Therapy, self help books, life distractions, drugs/alcohol and time can help dull the pain and memories but it will never completely go away.

I'm not alone in suffering from these issues as many other BSs can attest.

SisterMilkshake posted 3/21/2018 10:32 AM

I ask you again, skins21, where are you getting your data to bolster your assumptions?

I beg to differ on your opinion. I see very few "reformed" wayward spouses who have successfully reconciled the marriage and now are living in an authentic, happy and healthy marriage with a BS who has no trust issues or thinks about the affair any longer.

ETA: And, do you think you are going to be miraculously healed of all your pain once you are divorced? No matter which path you take, there is going to be work for you to do and healing you need to do. It maybe different than reconciling, but there is still much pain and heartache in divorcing.

ETA: I have read hundreds of infidelity stories on here and other sites, too. Probably more than you as I am eight years post d-day and I have not come to the same conclusions as you.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:03 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 3/21/2018 10:47 AM

Skins, I do believe that some people change. I've seen it. Having said that, I think you're probably right in a majority of marriages that suffer infidelity. You may very well wind up being right with regards to my own marriage. Time will tell. I don't find that scary. A post like yours makes me evaluate what's going on in my life, though it doesn't influence my decision. I say that even as a MH. Those of us who have been betrayed need to keep it real with ourselves. If your post helps someone keep it real with themselves, good. Some could read this and know from their own experiences that you're wrong in their case and it just solidifies their own decision. That's good too.

Trying to R is definitely a hard thing and you really do have to keep who you're trying to R with in perspective. I'm trying to R with someone who has issues with addiction. That's a MAJOR point against my marriage lasting and I know it. I'm very much in wait and see mode and for a lot of the reasons you stated in your original post.

I'm sorry you've gone through this nightmare. I wish you well in your single life ahead. It sounds like D is right for you and congrats on making that decision.

Whether we're in a good R or a false R, these are legitimate points to consider in the process:

Without trying to overgeneralize most/many cheaters have severe character flaws that include lying, addiction, fear of commitment, selfishness, entitlement, attention seeking, fear of abandonment and co-dependency to name a few.
Beyond all of that many cheaters have some sort of personality disorder that's hereditary or was established as a child and how they were raised by broken parents.

Whatever your cheater's issues are it's hardly ever a simple fix to magically restore the partner you've always wanted.

What ends up happening most of the time is that they continue to hurt you over and over again because they have no empathy/compassion or they just can't change their core personality.

Years of counseling/psychotherapy may get them the help they need but it does not necessarily mean that the changes they make are long lasting and permanent.

The odds of a marriage lasting isn't great to begin with but trying to R with someone who's already destroyed your life is nearly impossible and takes many many years to even begin to "move on".

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:49 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

cobalt77 posted 3/21/2018 10:51 AM

As has been said – this site is about surviving infidelity. It’s not about reconciliation or divorce but it’s not about remaining in infidelity. To-date – over 10 years since I signed up – I still haven’t found a third path to survive infidelity. The only paths I know are R or D. To eliminate one path right off the bat… well… that’s not constructive.

What about having a RA or open marriage? I regret at times NOT just f-ing who I wanted while suffering in my sexless relationship with now-ex WBF. Maybe if I'd pursued a RA and had actually been successful, I would have realized I want out of the relationship sooner, being able to taste the side where the grass is truly greener. Or, maybe it would have caused WBF to realize what he was missing, that I was in fact a "catch" able to actually attract other men, and that he now needs to compete better in order to keep me his. Sometimes guys act better when they're trying to woo you away from other men. I saw it, briefly, when my WBF found out I was hanging out with my decently good looking male friend (totally platonic). All of a sudden he was more interested in finalizing weekend plans with me, and started texting me calling me cute affectionate names like "Hun" and "cutie". Before that, he was aloof towards me (this occurred when we first got back together after our 7mo breakup). I've had many friends, more now than when I was actually with WBF, coming out of the woodworks saying that if my needs weren't being met, then it wouldn't have been wrong for me to find sex elsewhere. Now, however, I'm fatter than ever and the long time without sex has plummeted my self esteem, making it more difficult to get laid now than it might have been before.

truthsetmefree posted 3/21/2018 11:04 AM

Maybe we can settle the other debate of generalizations by simply stating that everyone is capable of change, not everyone can choose it. I chose to ignore the tone of the thread because I can see your pain and I also know from experience in my M. I believe that many readers will not put so much stock in just one statement made by someone in disappointment and pain and the tone is not a threat. Hopefully though, it allows those that are in false R and whose wayward spouses are not stepping up their game to re-evaluate their current R and to do what is right for them.

Yes, yes, yes. Very well expressed and much more to the direct point of what I was trying to express. I was trying to make the same point by hopefully creating empathy - which instead has apparently just fueled the fire around the same arguments.

who has called me a liar at least 3 times

Has he called you a liar, sisoon? Or has that been your interpretation of what he has said by stating his opinion? To-may-to, to-mae-to. I'm not diminishing your sovereignty to interpret how you choose...but I do not seen what you apparently see. Maybe because I don't see his perspective on waywards as a direct affront to you or your situation?


Generalizing distances you from your pain, and you can't release it from a distance. If you really want out of infidelity, you'll have to stop generalizing.

Respectfully, I don't agree with this statement as a whole. For long-term healing, yes. But for accepting the magnitude of the pain at the moment and the reality of your situation, I think there can be merit in generalizations...particularly as we try to comprehend and process the magnitude of what has happened to us and come to terms with whatever limitations we may be facing with our individual WS. It's a process and each stage has it's own value. (I will address what I anticipate to be the counter-response to my opinon when I respond to SMS below.) I truly believe skins generalization is rooted in anger...which is a necessary aspect of healing. And speaking personally, something I have not been able to successfully reach and thus I believe has greatly affected my ability to truly heal. It certainly affected my ability to just look at my WS for the behavior he was demonstrating.


This is insulting and demeaning to many members. How can anyone tell another member how to feel after the destruction of their marriage? Has Skins life imploded? He hasn't shared a new dday - a new horrific event - he's too busy telling everyone else what to do.

I think this is unfair. And honestly - again, respectfully being said - inciting. It takes two sides (opposition) to polarize a group. I don't see the original post as any more inciteful than some of the responses that have been given. That's just my perspective.


truthsetmefree, so there should be exceptions from guidelines if one is in a great deal of pain?

This has nothing to do with what I was expressing. However, to answer your question and to clarify my intent - I have absolutely no interest in establishing the guidelines or policing this site. If I did I would be countering the upset of those at the breaking of the "no generalizations" rule by pointing out that we are also not to "call out other members". I appreciate every aspect of SI and those that take on what must be the daunting task of moderating a board of such high emotions in an environment of "opponents" by the very nature of the topic itself. My sole purpose in each of my posts has been to try to decrease the polarizing views by introducing empathy (through a different perspective) to the topic.


P.S. There was no smugness in my expressing what I think I would do if I found I had been in false reconciliation.

I can accept this, SMS. Honestly, "smugness" was not exactly the word that I wanted to use. That choice was likely influenced by some of the frustration/emotion I felt at the time of responding. I believe "confidence" more accurately reflects my true thoughts so I have edited my reply to reflect that.

WhatsRight posted 3/21/2018 11:06 AM

I see very few "reformed" wayward spouses who have successfully reconciled the marriage and now are living in an authentic, happy and healthy marriage with a BS who has no trust issues or thinks about the affair any longer.

skins...^^^ I think the above may be an example of what sisoon was referring to about having been accused of lying. Because sisoon, and others, have told you that they have successfully reconciled, and have re established connection and trust with their FWS. And yet your comments seem to suggest that they only THINK they are successfully reconciled, because it is YOUR belief...your truth...that it is rarely possible.

But there is never one universal truth. We each have our own truths.

Respectfully, I think it is also an example of speaking about things of which you have no knowledge. You certainly, if I understand correctly, have never actually EXPERIENCED a successful R. I'm really sorry that it didn't work out for you. But your reality does not negate the positive R experienced by others.

I hope that your decision turns out to be the best one for you. As sister said, whatever way we choose, we have to look "healing" dead in the face and do the work to get there.

I don't believe anyone here is judging your choice not to R in your marriage.

But I also believe they would prefer that you don't judge their choices, either.

I wish you well. You have one up on some folks here, in that they are still struggling with what their choice will be.

I hope we will all share the pros and cons for each choice, but allow them to make their choice without judgement.

SisterMilkshake posted 3/21/2018 11:10 AM

You make a good point, truthsetmefree, about the guidelines.

However, as far as empathy goes, does not skins21 also have an obligation to have empathy?

ETA: When I first joined SI I was the Queen of Generalizations. I really appreciated it when other members pointed out that I was generalizing as opposed to the Mods having to intervene. Which the Mods did on a few occasions. (So embarrassing!) I didn't feel that the other members where "calling me out" but, in fact, helping me become a better member and letting me fix my mistake/generalization before a Mod had to step in.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:18 AM, March 21st (Wednesday)]

devotedman posted 3/21/2018 11:11 AM

skins21, I'd like to address you directly on a few points and I'll try my best to be complete with my assumptions, conclusions, etc.

When I first read your original post in this topic I thought, "Wow. That guy is really hurting." I think that then I was correct and I think that you still are. I think that you still are because emotional pain takes a while to get over, not just a few days or a week but more time.

I am also quite familiar with reality smacking me in the face with my own unexpected reactions. When I had to have an eye removed I thought that I was fine with it -but- in the parking garage at the hospital I had to have xww stop the car because all of a sudden I doubled over and felt like puking my guts out. One second fine, the next tottering on the edge of vomiting and all emotional. It was that quick. There have been other, similar, times.

In a related vein I can tell you from my own personal experience that time does indeed change things about how I feel about events. The betrayals that I've suffered throughout life now hurt a whole lot less than they did then. The false R of my M hurts a lot less now than it did then. Seeing xww with the kids now is no big deal. Seeing xww back then was a huge deal. I was bitter, hurt, all of the things that you are now.

You say that, "this has changed me forever." I agree with you there, it has changed you forever. Every huge experience does. You also say, "I'll feel this way forever," and I can also say that you will not. You will feel differently than before, but how much differently you feel depends upon the type of person that you are and, perhaps, on the type of person that you choose to be if you should choose to grow from this.

You posted in my thread, "Well that escalated quickly" that your wife makes suicide threats to get you all concerned and going out and looking for her. But, what if you called 911 or the police the next time that she does that? You've taught her that she can do X (threaten suicide) and you'll Y (panic and run around ineffectually). Change your reaction to Z (call 911 or the police and share texts or voice mails) and you'll now be showing her a reaction that she does not want. She'll likely up the game to try to steer you back into line. If you stay the course, not panicking, then she will learn that that trick doesn't work any longer and she'll most likely quit doing it.

I think that your original post in this thread is a similar reaction to a huge, traumatic, horribly painful experience.

Q. Would immediately getting a D "work" for everyone?
A. That depends upon your definition of "work." There are consequences to every action that we take. Is it the right answer for everyone? Probably not. R has never been the right answer for any of my situations -but- that doesn't mean that attempting to R is an invalid answer for every situation, only for mine.

Q. Is R always an invalid response?
A. No, -but- it has to be with someone that is truly remorseful, not rugsweeping, not lying, not TT-ing, not gaslighting. To be successful it has to be with someone who becomes honest.

Q. Is D always an invalid response?
A. No. Similar reasoning as the previous question. True R cannot be done with someone who isn't fully "in." In those cases I do think that D is a valid response. Sometimes, though, one can choose to stay M because of other factors or influences. That decision might not be the right one for you or me, but that doesn't invalidate the decision for other situations.

skins21, there are a whole host of factors that play into choosing R or D. Just like underwear it isn't "one size fits all."

Coping mechanisms are used to cope. Yours right now seems to be a "take no prisoners" approach, a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" approach. There are other approaches that work for people.

Good luck, and I do mean that sincerely.

[This message edited by devotedman at 11:13 AM, March 21st, 2018 (Wednesday)]

hopefulmother posted 3/21/2018 11:17 AM

Skin21:

I see very few "reformed" wayward spouses who have successfully reconciled the marriage and now are living in an authentic, happy and healthy marriage with a BS who has no trust issues or thinks about the affair any longer.
There are probably more than you think. They just aren't here anymore. Are you basing your reasons to divorce on the statistics you see? Are you basing your need to divorce because you need to get away from the source of the pain to heal? If you do what you need to do to heal, the pain doesn't last forever. It helps if you have a remorseful spouse to show how their choices have affected you. Your feelings for her may change down the road. I can attest to anyone else out there that R can work. It has to for the individual. It can for the marriage. It is worth the chance to try because you never know if you are part of the percent that come out better. We did. I can say with 100% commitment that I am grateful for what happened in our marriage. I am happier. I live life better equipped. I don't wear rose-colored glasses. I am happy for my husband and am thankful and proud of the man he has become for himself and for my family. It came from a hard situation, but it wasn't impossible to overcome. It was painful, but it didn't last forever. We are now who we should have been together from the beginning.

The truth is that the mental/emotional trauma from an affair lasts a lifetime. That's something I didn't fully understand at first. The mind movies, recurring thought loops and emotional pain that I've suffered have permanently changed me. There's no going back to who I was before or recovering completely from the damage my WW has done to me mentally. Therapy, self help books, life distractions, drugs/alcohol and time can help dull the pain and memories but it will never completely go away.
Find a way to survive. Rise above it. It gets easier over time. I know that is a hard thing for you and that is okay. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to sign up for that 5 year period of rebuilding. I wish you just wouldn't discourage others from doing that. It really can be worth it. A year or two of emotional torture is hard. It really seems like nothing now. What you choose to do in that time to help yourself to heal is what is important. I wouldn't have traded in sticking it out for anything. Even if it meant undoing the affair. I know it easy for my to say. We made it. Most importantly I made it. For some of the readers that get discouraged by the time, just know that there are some that find it worth it. Things change over time. People change and so do feelings. I know for anyone that considers this will evaluate their own situations and take into account their definitions of progress.

hopefulmother posted 3/21/2018 11:23 AM

SisterMilkshake:

When I first joined SI I was the Queen of Generalizations.
I can't imagine that at all. Since I have been here you have been the complete opposite. A voice of reason to see things in a different light. Encouraging users to think outside their comfort zone and box. Empathetic and compassionate.

See. People can change.

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