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DevastatedDee posted 4/5/2018 11:29 AM

Now THAT is a generalization I can live with. I'd even agree with 'After an affair, there are no good options left to you.'

Truth. We lose things about ourselves that we probably never regain no matter how we recover. Even if my marriage got happier, I've still lost parts of me and changed in ways that aren't for the better. There are some real things to feel despair about even if R is successful. You're never the same.

Hephaestus2 posted 4/5/2018 11:48 AM

Exactly what is the problem with generalizations?

Please be specific.

Or, what is the problem, generally speaking?

DragnHeart posted 4/5/2018 11:51 AM

Exactly what is the problem with generalizations?
Please be specific.

Its number 8. Under the forum guidelines.

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

1Faith posted 4/5/2018 11:56 AM

STOP

Allow skins21 to share what he is experiencing.

Don't take is comments/views personally.

His feeling aren't right or wrong they just are his feelings which he is entitled to just as all of us are entitled to our feelings/thoughts/fears/hopes etc.

Thank you skins21 for being honest, sharing and for the inspiration to a new path for you.

((Hugs))

[This message edited by 1Faith at 11:57 AM, April 5th (Thursday)]

DragnHeart posted 4/5/2018 12:25 PM

Ummm all I did was answer a question as to why generalizations are a problem.

Nothing skins or anyone else says here will affect me personally or knock me off my current path. I'm simply worried for a new bs being given the "only option is to D, you can't heal with the source of your pain still living with you" when that's not true for everyone. No one can presume/assume? that I or anyone else is incapable of healing through infidelity by taking the path of R and not D.

He's hurting. We all understand that.

Bigger posted 4/5/2018 12:53 PM

Hepahestus2:

Imagine a new poster that comes to this site.
Imagine it’s a husband that has just discovered his wife’s affair. He’s really mixed up. His world has been shattered. His family threatened. They own and owe a house, they just got the second car, they had their vacation planned, the kids are his life, his career is being affected…

Now imagine this poster came here to SI. Imagine he comes here to find out if R is a possibility and what needs to be done. Only to be told that ALL waywards are a lost cause. No exception.
That NO reconciliation has EVER succeeded. That he’s a loser, a weakling, a puss. He should man up, grow a pair, kick her out, change the locks, strangle the cat… whatever. He should do ANYTHING ELSE than even THINK reconciliation is EVER possible. It’s NOT POSSIBLE. It CAN’T BE DONE.

Since this site was founded by a reconciled couple, since amongst the guides, moderators and contributors there are reconciled members… then we KNOW the above is not true. That generalization – if allowed to thrive – would be doing that poster a great disservice.

There are infidelity-based sites that encourage reconciliation. Right now, in JFO there is a poster that’s going to remain married no matter what. It took me about 2 minutes to google the site the poster possibly found her faith-based path on… There are other sites that encourage divorce. SI does neither IMHO. I like to think SI encourages getting out of infidelity. Reconciliation is one path out and closing that path right from the start (like generalizations do) is simply limiting the help we can offer. I feel the same about closing the path of D.

IMHO marriages can survive anything. This does not imply that they need to survive anything. In all instances, the people in the marriage can decide what they want.


Sisoon
I think that at least I took part in coining the phrase “getting out of infidelity”. Your understanding is correct.

To me, in summary, 'getting out of infidelity' means making mindful choices about how each of us is going to respond to his WS's A

Is spot-on. It‘s basically when you decide not to be a victim but take realistic steps to end the infidelity. It’s centered around taking control of what you can control and working with that. While the affair is ongoing you can control ending the marriage, if the affair is over you can control the pace and effectiveness of reconciliation.

Jaci02 posted 4/5/2018 14:08 PM

Take realistic steps to end the infidelity????
Actually when you decide to R, can't just take realistic steps to end it. Your WS can but you as a BS can't stop the infidelity. No matter how much you want it to stop. This lies only in the WS power.
If you D instead you still can't stop the infidelity but you simply choose to not be the one, who is going to be cheated on in the future.
R as same D is possible.
But not really to take realistic steps to stop the infidelity as a BS staying with the WS.

Hephaestus2 posted 4/5/2018 14:57 PM

Hello Bigger,

I think I agree with you at least when you seem to say that blanket statements about recovery from infidelity are pretty meaningless. Obviously, it is false that marriages never survive infidelity. We can all point to examples of marriages that have survived (some for better and some for worse).

You are probably also right that it is unkind to try to rob people of the hope that their marriages (and families) can survive an affair. On the face of it, it seems kinder to encourage reconciliation.

On the other hand, blowing sunshine up someone's kilt can also be unkind. There is nothing especially noble about imparting false hope. There may be some value in attempting to remain optimistic but optimism will only take you so far.

Infantilizing the participants on this site seems unwise. People are capable of recognizing the kinds of advice that are worthwhile.

Having a general rule that recommends avoiding generalizations seems to teeter on the brink of some kind of internal logical inconsistency.

It is somewhat similar to advising against giving advice.

Here's my point, Bigger. Imagine a new poster comes to this site and an old poster (sounding suspiciously like Eeyore) says "don't bother trying to reconcile with your unfaithful spouse - it will never work". What will will the new poster do? Immediately file for divorce? Slit his wrists? Not likely. Not if he isn't developmentally disabled. More likely the new poster will take the old poster's advice for what it is. Advice. An opinion. Probably a biased opinion.

When my (then) wife and I met for the first time with our first marriage counselor, he asked me what my primary concerns were. When I told him that I did not believe my wife (when she denied having an affair) he told me that in that case I had no choice but to divorce. I won't bore you with the reasons that I refused to take his advice. They are obvious.

OK. I changed my mind. I will bore you. No one has the right to advise someone else to divorce, especially if they have only known each other for a few minutes. Marriage counselors ought never to be the first person in the room to give up on a marriage; if they do, they should find a different profession (he said ironically). Should I go on?

In any case, if skins21 (or anyone else) wants to write "forget reconciliation" I say let him write it. What is so dangerous about letting him make his case? But caveat emptor. Or to put it another way, YMMV.

wifehad5 posted 4/5/2018 15:06 PM

Having a general rule that recommends avoiding generalizations seems to teeter on the brink of some kind of internal logical inconsistency.

It is somewhat similar to advising against giving advice.

Hephaestus2,

This is not a "general rule". It is one of the few Guidelines that we use to help the site run smoothly as it has for many years. It's simple, if someone chooses to not follow the Guidelines, they will no longer be able to post here. It doesn't matter why they are breaking the guidelines. It matters that they are breaking the guidelines and if they continue, they will be removed from the site.

heathenchristian posted 4/5/2018 15:28 PM

How the hell can you heal when the biggest obstacle and trigger of your pain is still living with you?

This is how I feel, but can't seem to move on after almost 6 yrs...

Bigger posted 4/5/2018 15:34 PM

Here's my point, Bigger. Imagine a new poster comes to this site and an old poster (sounding suspiciously like Eeyore) says "don't bother trying to reconcile with your unfaithful spouse - it will never work". What will will the new poster do? Immediately file for divorce? Slit his wrists? Not likely. Not if he isn't developmentally disabled. More likely the new poster will take the old poster's advice for what it is. Advice. An opinion. Probably a biased opinion.

We have examples by the dozens of what happens when new posters are bombarded with advice based on generalizations. I have been around for quite a few years. In the last 2 years there has been a steadily-increasing number of hardcore divorce-at-any-cost tilt on threads in JFO. Especially for BH. When the nth poster tells the BS what a wuss he is for even hoping to R the result is generally that the BH simply finds another source for support.

And yes – blind support for R is not better than blind support for D.

[This message edited by Bigger at 3:39 PM, April 5th (Thursday)]

Hephaestus2 posted 4/5/2018 15:39 PM

Hello wifehad5,

If it is a Guideline but not a general rule then that would be different. Thank you for clarifying.

Hephaestus2

Hephaestus2 posted 4/5/2018 15:43 PM

Bigger wrote >>We have examples by the dozens of what happens when new posters are bombarded with advice based on generalizations<<

I'm not familiar with what happens in these circumstances. I guess you are saying that bad things happen when new posters are bombarded? What do they do?

Hephaestus2 posted 4/5/2018 15:47 PM

Bigger wrote >>We have examples by the dozens of what happens when new posters are bombarded with advice based on generalizations<<

I'm not familiar with what happens in these circumstances. I guess you are saying that bad things happen when new posters are bombarded? What do they do?

woundedbear posted 4/5/2018 16:18 PM

Sorry, late to the party....

I would say that my fWW and I are deep into R. Our marriage is very happy, we travel, volunteer, and play together. I think our sex life is as good as ever (given that we are not in our 20's anymore) I meet her for lunch sometimes during the week, and I am greeted at the door with a kiss every night by an enthusiastic wife. Very few people know that she was a serial cheater. None of you would know if I did not tell you.

Here is why I think we made it. One, my fWW's As were not long PAs, but she had several EAs and PAs over our almost 29 years. We got to the bottom of her triggers that would start them and her boundary issues, and she got help including meds for depression and anxiety. It also had to do with me. Far from a co-dependent, I am very independent. I have a strong sense of myself. I know that without my fWW, I am a bright, strong, successful man, and I was not broken by her infidelity. It did not fuck with my outlook about me. Her infidelity had little to do with me, it had to do with how broken she was. Sure I was wounded and it was very painful, but I was by no means broken.

I did not 180 after DDay. I grieved AND laid down my terms. She knew I would follow through if she did not follow them. I was prepared to walk away, and she knew it. If I walked away, I would not cover for her, everyone would know she cheated. I would get an annulment so I could remarry in the church if I chose to. The terms were not meant to punish, and would allow for an amicable R. Still, for the first year or so, she was in shame for what she did and getting caught. I would not call it remorse, she was still too caught up in her own shit for remorse. When she started to deal with her issues after many sessions of IC and MC, remorse set in. Then at the end of year one, we started to really process her shit. We started to get to the root of how I contributed (not taking blame, she could have dealt with it very differently)

Skins, your WW may not feel remorse for a while, she is likely still dealing with her own justifications. I don't think remorse sets in until the justifications fade or get shot down. And if the A has wrecked you, get out. R is not for everyone. But neither is D. AND it is not a binary decision. There are lots of ways to go. You gotta do what is best for you, but we all have to do the same.

sisoon posted 4/5/2018 17:26 PM

Actually when you decide to R, can't just take realistic steps to end it. Your WS can but you as a BS can't stop the infidelity. No matter how much you want it to stop. This lies only in the WS power.

Hmm...after d-day, every issue that came up was 'go or stay?' for me. I could have chosen to leave - and D - at any moment, since issues come up in life several times every day.

If you D instead you still can't stop the infidelity but you simply choose to not be the one, who is going to be cheated on in the future.

Whoa...how in Heaven's name do you guarantee no one else will betray you in the future?

How the hell can you heal when the biggest obstacle and trigger of your pain is still living with you?

Again, one's WS can provide a LOT of emotional support while a BS is healing. If the WS doesn't provide that support, I'd probably suggest at least thinking about leaving. If my W had not provided emotional support, I certainly would have left.

crazyblindsided posted 4/5/2018 17:52 PM

your WW may not feel remorse for a while, she is likely still dealing with her own justifications. I don't think remorse sets in until the justifications fade or get shot down. And if the A has wrecked you, get out. R is not for everyone. But neither is D. AND it is not a binary decision. There are lots of ways to go. You gotta do what is best for you, but we all have to do the same.

Really good insight! It's true for some WS 's remorse comes when the BS is ready to throw in the towel that's how it worked in my case. My WH is showing me more now than after initial DDay so I can see he gets it now. It took years and a separation to get here though!

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:52 PM, April 5th (Thursday)]

skins21 posted 4/6/2018 07:54 AM

Skins? Are you still here?

Yes, I was put on a 24 hour time-out apparently.

What is it you want most right now and what are you doing to achieve that?

What I want the most is mental clarity, happiness and financial security. I'm moving into my own condo in 2 weeks to finally be away from the sources of my pain (home and WW). I think the change of environment and being away from her will allow me to start living my life again. Happiness is elusive and I don't know how to get that back again. I just need to find myself again and get back into hobbies I used to enjoy or find new ones to try out. Finances are one thing I'm not too concerned with except for how much my WW wants in the divorce settlement.

How are you handling the anger and frustration it seems you are feeling?

By letting go of any feelings for WW. By not caring about her needs or the marriage I finally stopped being angry at the situation and wanting revenge on OM. By letting my love for her go I have released myself from much of the tremendous anger I had. It all stems from being hurt by the worst betrayal anyone can experience.

Are you eating and sleeping alright?

Mostly, once I'm on my own I'll be able to get back into a better routine and regular meals/sleep schedule. I've lost 30lbs since last year.

Do you work out?
Yes, but I could always go more often. The new place I'm moving to has a state of the art gym so I'll cancel my current membership and use the one onsite.

Are you in IC?

Yes, started 3 weeks ago. So far so good. She has advised me to divorce as well and is excited about my future prospects because of how well I'm doing in many areas of life.

Do you have an outlet for yourself IRL?

Outlet? I have 1 friend in my area and my family is a few hours away. Maybe I should take up target practice at a shooting range or something.


Why didn't I divorce immediately after DD? Well the first thing I did was contact an attorney to find out my rights and how the process worked. My attorney said the best thing to do is to divorce as quickly as possible while WW was distraught, confused, upset and still in the fog. That way you can get what you want quickly while she isn't thinking clearly.

I absolutely believe this was the best advice! I should have listened. He even said you don't have to stop being friends with her, just end the relationship. Apparently his ex-wife works for him at his law practice and his current wife doesn't care. Weird...

During the week I kicked her out of the house I did a lot of reading online about marriage, relationships and affairs. I think this gave me false hope that reconciliation was a possibility. I see now that I was too traumatized for this to be a possibility, at least for me. Maybe the affair wasn't a complete deal breaker but the type of affair was. It was a 4 year LTA that was emotional (ILY's) and extremely physical (sex daily for years). During my investigation I saw the love letters, holiday cards, video of OM masturbating, hundreds of explicit pics my wife sent to him, photos of them on "dates", gifts they gave each other, found lingerie my wife wore for him and discovered trips they went on. Basically the entire 4 year secret relationship was exposed in front of me. This created months of intense mind movies and negative thoughts. My need for revenge was high.

I remained in this limbo of staying or going for a year. I tortured myself by staying. My house was a trigger because they had sex in it multiple times and they cooked together and he even played with my dog. I should have sold the house last year instead of waiting until now.

My wife was never 100% all-in from DD and hasn't really put in enough effort in my opinion. Even if she did I don't think it would be enough to stay but maybe it would have helped me mentally and I could have healed quicker.

All I can say is that for me the affair is a deal-breaker. If it was a different type of affair maybe that wouldn't be true, I don't know. In my situation I have a great job, no kids, relatively young, not ugly but could lose a few more lbs, am intelligent and overall financially secure. I know I'll be OK and will probably be able to find a new life partner someday. I guess those factors help when choosing to start all over again this late in life.

If people find my idea insulting or unhelpful in their choices then I apologize. If you feel the way I do and you want the pain to stop then I believe divorce is not only the right thing to do but the responsible thing to do for your mental health.

I refuse to take anti-depressants and I believe they even might be a contributing factor to my WW's affair. I will not numb my emotions. I let them all out, process them and am learning to move on in a healthy way.

Do I have any vices to help me out? Of course, I still drink on the weekends and use herb when I do get depressing thoughts. Meditation and IC have helped me to focus on the present, observe unwanted thoughts but not become emotionally connected to them and to know that my life isn't over and actually will be awesome even after this tragic life event.

DragnHeart posted 4/6/2018 08:07 AM

Hi. Thanks for answering my questions. Sounds like the plan you have is working for you and things will get better once you have your own place. I get the weekend drink but please make sure to eat, drink eater, sleep and exercise. Those things do help.

Have you tried journaling? That can help too.

skins21 posted 4/6/2018 08:21 AM

I have not tried journaling. I'm not much of a writer and I don't see the utility in it.

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