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User Topic: Men only- Timeline for gaining respect to fww ?
bittermusic
New Member
Member # 14464
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

When NC has been established and WS is remorseful, do you ever gain the respect you once had for your wife? Did the feeling of being "so grossed out" and "she's-a-dirty-whore" ever fade? What is the timeline?

Posts: 20 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Florida
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 2:10 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Not at a year out.

I didn't really struggle with "you're a dirty whore" feelings, though. Mine is more of just a general loss of respect.

I don't have confidence in her ability to make sound decisions, to select appropriate friendships, to maintain personal boundaries, etc. Of course, that could be because she doesn't seem to have made much progress since the A in making better decisions.

Now, I did have some interesting incidents where I began to find her physically repulsive in ways that I hadn't before. (Not to be crass, but I suddenly became very conscious of some of the effects of weight and age that I'd always overlooked before.) That wasn't constant, though. Just something that cropped up a dozen times or so over the first six months.

(I learned that if I avoided having sex with her for a week or so, I managed to get over it. :) ).


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Our first d-day was in February. Found out NC had not been established in April. Then I found out there had been others, and there had been PA in June. It took another 2 months after that to begin to renew the respect I once had. A big part of that is from MC and getting to the bottom of her issues. She's been working very hard. I never really had the "dirty W***** feelings. I do still wrestle with mind movies. I'm just rambling. Sorry


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
SoulDreamer
Member
Member # 14466
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I never felt she was a whore. She never admitted to a PA though. But my gut tells me otherwise.

What I lost are some of the things w-a-l mentioned... loss of respect, confidence in her ability to make appropriate friendship... And this one especially come up when she keeps saying things like "I'll make sur enot to talk to anyone and never make any nbew friends" And all I can think is... Hon, it's not about making new friends or talking to people. It's about not telling them you're marriage sucks and f*cking them and agreeing to move in with them. If you can't figure out where the line is then you do have a problem.

The biggest one I lost is sincerely being able to know I always had a woman who stood by my side, thick and thin, no matter what. When I see a guy, proud of his wife... I just think "Gosh... I really wish I could make that speech someday... But if I do, I'll just be thinking in my head "And here's to my wife, who was with me through everyt... I mean, through almost everything."


I'm not going crazy. I'm going sane in a crazy world.

Me: BH
Her: FWW
D-day: May, 2007.


Posts: 222 | Registered: May 2007
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

That's a great point, SoulDreamer. I hope that at some point the feeling that I'm married to someone I can be proud to claim as my wife comes back. Because right now it's very much, "Meh. This is the woman I'm married to."

It sucks to feel ashamed of your spouse on a regular basis.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Invisible Man
Member
Member # 5264
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I think this is part of the over all damage that an A causes and like the other parts, can fade with time. I didn't say will fade with time, because do much depends on how your fww responds from this point forward.

Although the scar will always be there, a mutually loving, respectful relationship can heal many wounds.....with time and effort.


BS- Still Recovering
"So many roads, so much at stake.
So many dead-ends, I'm at the edge of a lake. Sometimes I wonder what it's gonna take to find dignity.-Dylan

Posts: 2317 | Registered: Sep 2004 | From: Midwest
racerx
Member
Member # 15221
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

The first thing you need to loose is that "dirty whore" image. There is something wrong with anyone who has an affair period. If your wife knows she has done wrong and is remorsful about what has happened then address the issues, calling her that only causes a wourse self image for her and lets face it thats what got you here in the first place. But I will admit I also had those thoughts at first but that all stems from the pain not the person

[This message edited by racerx at 2:45 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 169 | Registered: Jul 2007
bittermusic
New Member
Member # 14464
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I notice that most of you mentioned things that you lost. I was wondering if there's any possibility that you will ever gain them back. And more. Would you be able to be proud of your wife someday? Is it impossible already. Would it be possible that someday you will say "My wife is an amazing woman. I love her dearly. I have no regrets in my decision to R with her!"

What does it take? Is it at all possible? Thanks for all the replies. I just want to be hopeful.


Posts: 20 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Florida
racerx
Member
Member # 15221
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Yes to all the above!

[This message edited by racerx at 2:46 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 169 | Registered: Jul 2007
BadBack
Member
Member # 11600
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Never had the "dirty whore" feelings....

It is all about the lying and deceipt part of it to me, that someone I could love and trust so much could lie and hurt me without a blink of an eye and throw away every thing we worked for over the years..... and come home and look me in the eye like nothing was up???

I was gaining pride in her again until Dday#2 when I found out that she was still lying to me....

[This message edited by BadBack at 2:49 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


M - 14 Years
Me FBS - A VERY VERY OLD Feeling 42y
Her FWW - 40y (lovedagain)
Her A ended 4/06 (2 Mo EA 7 mo PA with Former Employee of Hers)
D-day 7/29/06 D-Day2 9-24-07 (FOM REAL identity finally revealed
R is going Xtremely Well!!!

Posts: 510 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: SouthEastern US
Strider75
Member
Member # 13596
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

i used to respect WW. then the A started, i got 6 months of gaslighting and lying, and then after d-day...i lost all respect, trust, faith, etc. in WW.

i had all sorts of "dirty whore" thoughts about her for a while. those changed when i really started to understand why she did what she did. then i started to look at her w/ pity, pity for a weak-minded person.

at the moment, i'm able to trust her so far as to trust that she's not out balling someone else.

however, i don't trust her to make good decisions all the time.

i don't trust her to always be there for me the way a spouse should during times of trouble.

in fact, i don't trust her to be able to deal with crisis at all.

my faith in WW is dead.

and the only thing that will ever raise it from the dead is to see her go thru some sort of crisis with me, be mutually supportive of me, and stick w/ me. although, the thought just hit me that maybe she is doing it by R'ing, but that seems kind of hollow to me at the moment.

a biggie would be to see her actually admit what some of her own issues are (like how P-A she is) and admit that she needs to change those defficiencies. and then further to see her actually do it.


Sometimes I wish there was a way to have do-overs in life.

Posts: 5033 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Atlanta, GA
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Wish I had more hopeful advice for you, bittermusic. Maybe one of the guys who is farther out will be on to answer later.

Like you, I'm *hoping* that it changes, and I'm doing what I consider to be the work to *get* to that goal, but there aren't any surefire road maps. So much of rebuilding respect depends on the actions of our FWW's.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I agree on the loss of knowing she had my back. Now, I'm a little scared.

I am very of proud of how hard she is working on herself now. She is working her ass off, and is making huge improvements.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
BadBack
Member
Member # 11600
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I'm there w/ Wifehad5 too,

Mine had her A when I was recovering from back fusion surgery...she had my back alright.... Im dead afraid to have any other medical procedures again even though I need another back surgery....even though she swears on her life she'll be there for me "this time"....


M - 14 Years
Me FBS - A VERY VERY OLD Feeling 42y
Her FWW - 40y (lovedagain)
Her A ended 4/06 (2 Mo EA 7 mo PA with Former Employee of Hers)
D-day 7/29/06 D-Day2 9-24-07 (FOM REAL identity finally revealed
R is going Xtremely Well!!!

Posts: 510 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: SouthEastern US
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Oddly enough, I was recovering from near-fatal encephalitis at the time my WS's affair started. She flat out told me that the stress of my being ill was a major factor in her infidelity.

So, yeah, after I'd held her hand through her debilitating depression, the death of her father, the death of her grandmother, the very traumatic births of our children, the miscarriages, etc., when I actually needed *her* to stand up on her own and take care of me, she ran into the arms of my best friend (because he "understood what she was going through" fearing that I might die).

Yeah, there's a lot to respect there. Like BrokenBack, it makes me terrified to ever get sick again.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
BadBack
Member
Member # 11600
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Yep Wincing.... I was always there for her for every little and big illness tramua she had through our marriage also...even during her A period, she thought she had skin cancer, and who was the one (even with the bad back) who sat there in the Doctors office while she had the tumor removed and was worried if his wife had cancer.....sure wasnt Don Juan at her job.....if I knew then she was messing around on me I would have told him to sit there with her....and then again, I probably would have been there becasue I dont abandon my commitments like she did...

it does make you wonder if I'm ever in a bad accident...how quickly would she pull the plug on me??? something I wouldnt have worried about before....

[This message edited by BadBack at 3:23 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


M - 14 Years
Me FBS - A VERY VERY OLD Feeling 42y
Her FWW - 40y (lovedagain)
Her A ended 4/06 (2 Mo EA 7 mo PA with Former Employee of Hers)
D-day 7/29/06 D-Day2 9-24-07 (FOM REAL identity finally revealed
R is going Xtremely Well!!!

Posts: 510 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: SouthEastern US
Think 2 X S
Member
Member # 9093
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Bitter,

It's been two and a half years for me, and just last night, I found myself thinking "HOW COULD YOU?" It hit so hard I had to stop what I was doing and take a couple deep breaths before I could continue. So the timeline is still ticking for me.

As to your question about gaining respect again, I think that came as the result of a conscious choice. I decided that showing or feeling respect for her said more about me than it did about her.
I also had to admit that her confession, acceptance of responsibility, and efforts to fix what she'd broken were worthy of respect as well.


Posts: 343 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: Utah
tputer
Member
Member # 11353
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I remember when I started getting the respect back. It was when I decided to R with her. I had told her I was going to file for D. We had a very deep heart-to-heart talk about that.

She said it would destroy her, but she loved me and just wanted me to be happy. If that meant D, then she'd do whatever I wanted. She said she hoped I would meet someone who made me happy again. She had tears streaming down her face at the time.

I realized then that this woman is truly sorry for what she did and really does love me. That she would be willing to let me go in order for me to be happy again, I thought was a pretty selfless act on her part.

I honestly respected her for that, and thought she deserved another chance. I don't regret my decision at all.

BTW, this was about 9 months post DDay#1

[This message edited by tputer at 3:31 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


Me FBH/WS: 48
FWW/BW (JP12861): 48
Married 25 years
Kids: 2 DD's 24, 20
My DDay: 7/16/06
Hers: 4/5/10

Posts: 20518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: San Diego Area
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Ultimately, I guess that's one of the betrayals we're talking about. I mean, I've got friends that I respect as husbands or employees or something else, but I'd never talk with them about some personal issues, because I don't respect their opinions on, say, fatherhood. They've proven to me that their style of fatherhood runs counter to mine. That isn't a respect they can ever earn back from me, because I've seen enough examples from them to have determined that I don't respect their methods *in that particular*.

Are there some things for which infidelity kills not just immediate respect, but respect for all time?

For example, in the last year, I've listened to my wife give advice to a handful of her newlywed nieces on how to handle old boyfriends who are hanging around. Literally, all I can do is roll my eyes. As far as I'm concerned, she'll never have the right to advise anyone on stuff like that. She wants to give advice on paying for school tuition, fine. How to fix the dryer, great! How to deal with babies, you bet!

How to be faithful over the long haul? Prove to me that you can do it for ten years, and maybe -- maybe -- I'll take you seriously.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
tputer
Member
Member # 11353
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Prove to me that you can do it for ten years, and maybe -- maybe -- I'll take you seriously

- I guess this is where I'm fortunate. I didn't find out about FWW's little trysts until 12 years after the last one. So she at least has 12 years of fidelity to build on. I think that's pretty huge.


Me FBH/WS: 48
FWW/BW (JP12861): 48
Married 25 years
Kids: 2 DD's 24, 20
My DDay: 7/16/06
Hers: 4/5/10

Posts: 20518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: San Diego Area
wizver3
New Member
Member # 16357
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

This is all new for me as well. Hard for me to say how or if i will ever get the respect back, but something that SoulDreamer said is what sticks in my head "It's about not telling them you're marriage sucks and f*cking them and agreeing to move in with them."

That is what my wife did to me, she even tried to tell me that she was going to be sleeping on the couch when she moved in with him....yea, like she slept on the couch in that hotel room 2 hours away. I still love and enjoy my wife's company very much, but as to trusting her....not even sure wheer to begin....

[This message edited by wizver3 at 3:51 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


D-Day 9/14/2007

Posts: 26 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: tx
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Of course, the immediate question that leaps to mind is, how can I feel that way about my wife, but yet I don't feel that way about some of the WS's *here* who have D-days after mine? I have plenty of respect for their opinions on issues of fidelity.

Maybe it's because I don't live with them, so I can take their words at face value. One of the things I should mention is that it isn't like my FWW was giving her nieces *bad* advice. It was more that she had the gall to give them advice at all.

But again, I don't feel even an inkling of that about WS's that aren't mine, ya know? That feels like an irrationally applied principle to me -- which is one of the reasons that I hold out hope that it's one of those losses of respect that will fade in time.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
HUM1021
Member
Member # 6222
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I was trying to respect her after the first affair. Fat lot of good that did me.

After a lot of work we're to the point where I don't think she will cheat on me again. But I know I can't rely on her.

Some of you guys fear getting sick--I fear getting old.


Me: BS 34
Her: WS 33
M 5 years
dday with 1st OM 4/30/04 EA/PA
dday with 2nd OM 12/11/04 EA/PA
on the reconciliation rollercoaster

Posts: 739 | Registered: Jan 2005 | From: Colorado
brandedtx
Member
Member # 16216
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Don't think about a timeline. I'm only 2 months from D-day. I'm taking every day with a day-to-day mentality. 5th week of MC has helped and he says we are making progress. I had feelings of hate and anger but defeat and dispair creep up too. It's that rollercoaster that slowly is starting to level off for me. In some ways i feel guilt for my wife's A. i wasn't good enough. She lost her attraction because I put on weight because of my sedintary Office job since I graduated college. (all for my family). I'm just holding on. i've said mean things but i do regret them. I'm with those who will have problems with WW decision making. trust is starting to work out but a new beginning is important. New friends help too.
hang in there.


Trying to keep my head above water while holding on to a dream of a perfect family

Posts: 480 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: Texas
bittermusic
New Member
Member # 14464
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Wincing, is your D-day just recent? Sorry I didn't read your profile yet.

We can hurl all the most painful insults to our WS but I heard from my IC (I'm a BS) that one good thing about a truly remorseful FWW is her ability to be able to provide the soundest advise to people who are in danger of succumbing to the same mistakes she did. She will be way more effective than an someone who has not learned the lesson the hard way. My IC told me to be objective about it.


Posts: 20 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Florida
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

I'm more than a year out, bittermusic. My FWW is just an idiot. :)

Edit to clarify: She was also giving scads of marital advice to her girlfriends *during the affair* about how to be a good wife and keep their husbands happy. She was giving her great, hypocritical advice to friends who *knew* she was having an affair.

Her friends subsequently have told me that even they had their share of roll-eye moments with her.

Of course, for the sake of full disclosure, I should also add that my FWW is bipolar.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 7:46 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
ToddC
Member
Member # 9314
Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Although I am not R, much of your WW's progess may depend on her support system. My WW gets her sage advice from two friends who are both alcoholics(as is my WW), both desserted their families for OM when their kids were young and both hate men and marriages. My WW continues to be seduced by their advice twenty months or so past DDay.

I urged the "no friends who are not friends of the marriage" posture but it fell on deaf ears. Hopefully your WW has positive and supportive friends. It can make a huge difference.


Posts: 18524 | Registered: Jan 2006
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Couple more points:

1. ToddC has some great insight. Ever heard the phrase, "You can tell a man's character by the company he keeps." It applies in spades to WS's. People who continually associate with immoral "friends" who don't value fidelity tend to become and/or remain unfaithful. Good friends keep you accountable to yourself and your marriage because they have your best interests at heart. Bad "friends" don't ever judge you because they don't want to be called to the carpet on their own behaviors either.

Part of earning respect is acting honorably and developing a support system that requires you behave honorably.

2. My wife will always be the wife who cheated on me. She may become more than that, and accrue the respect that comes with it, but she will always be that. What she becomes will never change what she did.

3. There's a big difference between feeling a lack of respect for my wife because of what she has done and what her actions have revealed about her character, and giving voice to that lack of respect.

Just because I don't respect my friend's skills as a parent doesn't mean that I tell him so. It just means that I don't seek out his input on parenting issues, know what I mean?

I don't need to badger my wife with my lack of respect for her. That doesn't help anybody get through this. I mean, if she's acting like an idiot, I can call her out on that behavior, but I don't need to constantly rub her nose in the fact that I might think she's an idiot.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
ToddC
Member
Member # 9314
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

With infidelity, the marriage loses its innocence and scar tissue grows over the emotional wounds. When I was new at SI, Bigger told me to think in terms of W and WW. W will never be back because she left when sweet innocence was taken by the A. If you R, you have WW. If however, you both work hard at R, including transparency, NC, and MC/IC, you can potentially get RWW or FWW, which maybe an improvement over W and certainly WW in many ways. It is akin to physically working out to heal scar tissue but on an emotional level. The innocence is gone I am afraid but time will mitigate that wound as well.

Posts: 18524 | Registered: Jan 2006
Hurt&Crushed
Member
Member # 14108
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)

Some of you guys fear getting sick--I fear getting old.

HUM1021 -- I'm with you. I fear getting old. I'm here working on R. I am giving it everything I can muster up. But I am also realistic in that there is no guarantee that we will make it through this.

One of my biggest fears? Being in my mid thirties, divorced, 3 kids who I love very much, lots of baggage (jaded/hurt) and the inability to reproduce due to the Vasectomy my FWW and I agreed I should have because we didn't want more kids. Which in turn would potentially limit my options if I happen to run accross someone who might want to have a family of their own. Silly me was thinking as a couple when I had that done, not as an individual.

I don't know how or when the respect comes back. There are many things I agree with in here. I just wish I knew what to say to make it better for all of us.

Edited because I can't type.

[This message edited by Hurt&Crushed at 9:25 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]


"Get busy living, or get busy dying. That's goddamn right" - Red

Me(34)BS/WS
RoleModel(34)WS/BS
M 10yrs
Kids 7,7,3 all boys
Dday 1/07 & 3/07
RM's 12/07
Reconciling!!! :)


Posts: 1329 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: NY
Hurtnstill
Member
Member # 12079
Default  Posted: 12:38 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

As one who is already older, I don't fear it anymore, and it sure beats the alternative:-) As far as when the respect returns, I'm not sure you can go back there. In my relationship, we got to the root of both of our problems(see profile) and moved forward without much looking back. Did I forget about the past? No, but we did begin a new relationship built on the trust that we newly built. Trust built on the communication that we hadn't had before the A. I was deeply hurt as every BS is, but FWW was remorseful, transparent,maintained NC from the beginning, and was willing to do whatever it took to make our M work. I'm very confident that it will never happen again, and that helps me to renew my respect for her as well. She made a huge mistake, paid for it in full (owned her sh*t) and has stated many times that she is very sorry it happened, and wishes it had never occurred. I also believe that we forgive others based on the seriousness of the offense against us. We need to remember and it is difficult,that most times the WW is not deliberately offending us by having an A. Usually we don't enter their minds until they begin to feel the guilt of what they've done. They compartmentalize the A separately from their BS. It really isn't about anything we did or didn't do in most cases. They tell us all sorts of stories blame shifting the responsibility to us or someone else because they don't like the person they became if they feel guilt. If they are not remorseful, then they are still involved in the A in some way, either physically or mentally, and they've checked out of their M or relationship with us anyway. IMO we only begin to respect someone when they deserve our respect. I wouldn't respect someone still seeing the OM whether they were sleeping on the couch or not.


FBS-Me 67
FWW-64
M-46 Years
Reconciled-34 years
Reconciled for 34 years

The more I get to know some people, the more I like my dog.


Posts: 345 | Registered: Sep 2006 | From: Pacific Northwest
BadBack
Member
Member # 11600
Default  Posted: 6:19 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

You know Wincing, My wife always had the holier than thou attitude with her brothers when it came to advice with her brothers when it came to marraige and relationships also...

Her older brother cheated on his second wife and my wife blasted him for it, her middle brother was carrying on with an old girlfriend behind his wife's back while my wife wass having her little trist and she made some big stink about it in front of her parents as if she was Mother Teresa,(do you see a pattern here with my wife and her brothers?) now if I would have known then what I know now I would have told her to shut the F up and look in the mirror. She even allienated a friend in the past giving her marriage advice on what she needed to do to be a good wife.... Yeah..my wife really knew what to do to be a good wife... Checking into the Local Motel with an employee 15x for some nooners is a good wife....

So when it comes to respecting my W's advice and opinions now, well lets say, as others did above, if it comes to things without moral implications I may listen, it will take a long time before I take any credence in anything other than minor matter, until some trust and respect is built back up.....

[This message edited by BadBack at 6:22 AM, October 4th (Thursday)]


M - 14 Years
Me FBS - A VERY VERY OLD Feeling 42y
Her FWW - 40y (lovedagain)
Her A ended 4/06 (2 Mo EA 7 mo PA with Former Employee of Hers)
D-day 7/29/06 D-Day2 9-24-07 (FOM REAL identity finally revealed
R is going Xtremely Well!!!

Posts: 510 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: SouthEastern US
certman
Member
Member # 11446
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

I still don't respect my WW. I remember before the A I use to be proud of my wife. If people asked how she was I would rattle off some of her recent accomplishments, how she was doing well at work, how she was happy at her job. Both WW and myself work in similar field so it was a common occuurance to run into people who knew her.

Now I keep the answers as brief as possible. I tell them that she is fine and leave it at that. It saddens me when people ask how she is doing because in some ways I don't care how she is doing. During the A and after dday she disconnected from me totally. She legally changed her name back to her maiden name, removed all the pictures from the office and acted like I no longer exisited.

If I was killed during the A I am sure her biggest worry would be how to get the wake over as quickly as possible and getting me in the ground ASAP.

You only own one thing in your life, your reputation. Everything else is rented and returned after you die. My WW decided to trash her reputation for a pathological liar.

[This message edited by certman at 7:59 AM, October 4th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1562 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: NYC
Basic_Guy
Member
Member # 4396
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

"When NC has been established and WS is remorseful, do you ever gain the respect you once had for your wife?"....no


"Did the feeling of being "so grossed out" and "she's-a-dirty-whore" ever fade?"...yes...but they still come back to kick you in the ass every once in a while....

"What is the timeline?"
.....I am 7 years out.


Courage does not always come with blinding flashes of light....sometimes you only notice it after it passes...

My patron saint is a-fighting with a ghost
He's always off somewhere when I need him most.


Posts: 32886 | Registered: May 2004
BadBack
Member
Member # 11600
Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

I here ya Certman, FWW and I are also in the same field, I also was proud of my wifes accomplishments and actually coached and pushed my wife into taking her current management position that empowered her to have her affair. Its almost like a slap in the face, because I have always been her personal cheering section when it came to her career.

Before I found out the truth a few weeks ago who OM was, I actually helped her with figuring out a way to get rid of him ( I thought he was just a problem employee, not her ex-man-toy).

My FWW was always career driven and funny how when I asked her to tone it down to and spend some time with me when I was recovering it couldnt be done, but she could find the time to spend with him..she stole what little time she claimed to have available for me and gave it away to him... and my biggest loss of respect for her was lying to me over this past year and making up a false OM while this butthole was there the whole time. and me here, the fool, being duped all over again...even if the affair was over...the lies and deceit were still very much alive.she claimed NC, that he was gone, and the truth was he was still there every day during our first false R for over a year...Yeah, what respect I regained over the past year or so has been shot to shit....

ToddC... Thanks for the insights... that really put the lost innocense in a nutshell for me...hopefully, F-RWW 2.0 will work out for the better this time....

Certman...hang in there bud... Beleive me I feel your pain!

[This message edited by BadBack at 8:35 AM, October 4th (Thursday)]


M - 14 Years
Me FBS - A VERY VERY OLD Feeling 42y
Her FWW - 40y (lovedagain)
Her A ended 4/06 (2 Mo EA 7 mo PA with Former Employee of Hers)
D-day 7/29/06 D-Day2 9-24-07 (FOM REAL identity finally revealed
R is going Xtremely Well!!!

Posts: 510 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: SouthEastern US
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, October 4th (Thursday)

You sound like you need a manly pat on the back today, cert. Anything we can do to help?


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Crossbow
Member
Member # 15224
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, October 4th (Thursday)

Wow, I'm there with you guys about losing my respect for my FWW.

I was always so proud of her. Sure, I knew some of the "drawbacks" that other people might see (her obesity, for example), but that didn't matter to me. I talked about how wonderful she was, how smart, what a great wife, how loving and loyal, how great she was at her job, etc. I, too, was her personal cheering section.

I was there when her first job here didn't pan out (stupid boss) and her second job also ended (evil boss), and then when her third job turned out to be the charm. I was there when her father died (they were very close), driving 1400 miles alone & non-stop from work to be with her. Of course I was there through the pain of infertility and then the dramatic ups & downs of adopting a newborn.

So then what happens? She gets her husband, she gets her house, she gets her baby, it's like she had a checklist. Then she got involved with OM. And nearly lost the whole thing over THAT.

Do I trust her ability to make good judgments? To form healthy friendships? To keep appropriate boundaries? To take good care of our children if she's in the throes of something else? The answer is a resounding NO.

D-Days were still pretty recent, I realize that. I hope for the day when I will regain my respect for her. She got a little bit back by going absolutely NC with both OP and especially by writing a letter to OMW confessing and apologizing and offering to answer any questions she might have. That probably earned my respect more than anything else she's done since D-Days. But still....

Now she's just my wife. I love her, but I'm not proud of her the way I used to be.

Like another guy said, "This is my wife, who has been there for me through everyt... well, ALMOST everything."


DDay 7/4/07 found out about online/sexting EA with OM
DDay 7/25/07 found out about OW
In R

2 DSs, ages 8 and 6
DD, 1


Posts: 9376 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Utah
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, October 4th (Thursday)

Speaking of jobs, I was always so proud of FWW. She loved her job. Was very good at it. Had a lot of respect. Used to tell me how busy she was. I wouldn't contact her at work unless it was important because I didn't want to "bother" her. Come to find out, she met all of the OM through work, and carried on long phone, e-mail and IM conversations with them. I felt cheated (pardon the pun). Hear I am respecting her, and she's using the time to meet other guys?!? Then to add insult to injury, after the last d-day, she was given a new assignment, and is actually busy now. (I do know that she is actually busy) Took me a while to come to grips with this.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
HurtinMan
Member
Member # 15695
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, October 4th (Thursday)


regaining respect 100% is a long, if neverending road off for me here.

now, that being said, my FWW has earned a certain degree of it back by owning her shit, showing remorse, doing NC, and sticking around while the shit hit the fan.

that may not sound like a lot but reading on here has taught me that is something to be thankful for.

i will respect her more as time goes on and she continues it all... but yes, there is sort of an "innocence lost" as mentioned by others on here. The garden of eden has closed and the serpent is laughing.

all i can do is learn to laugh too and move on... to err is human. granted, that was a huge fuckup but I believe it can be measured by the progress and rebuilding that comes after that...

respect is just one piece of the puzzle of how I feel about FWW.

as for a timeline, I think actions being compiled is a better measure, time for personal measures varies so greatly from person to person, depending on their maturity levels, emotional strength, etc.

respect for me just comes one day at a time.


DDay - 8/2007 BrokenNC -11/07
BH with 2 kids
Committed to R

Posts: 1615 | Registered: Aug 2007
i_lost_my_mind
Member
Member # 15678
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, October 4th (Thursday)

Hi everyone,

One of the first things I told my W after I decided not to leave was that she had to make me proud of that decision.

3 months from D-day and I feel very far from being proud. She has done anything his weak mind allows her but she has always been a very dependent person, she doesn't like to make decisions. That's how the OM got her, he always took the initiative, she only followed him without thinking what she was doing.

That is why I lost all respect I had for her. When I ask her details about the A, she always responds that the OM used to say what to do, when and where. She didn't worry about protection or being caught, she left all that stuff to the OM.

I still have to take a parental test, since I forced her to leave her job, we can't afford it yet. But I know that if when I take the test I discover that my little princess is not mine I will not only had lost any respect for her, I will hate her.


"One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope."

Posts: 56 | Registered: Aug 2007
kxm00
Member
Member # 14075
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, October 5th (Friday)

I hate to be a downer but...

My simple answer is that I never regained respect for her. She never gave me a reason to. I worked very hard at R and was beginning to rebuild that trust and respect her again.

Unfortunately, my wife wanted to just put the whole thing behind her and pretend it never happened. That enabled her not to deal with her issues of why she did it. I didn't realize it was happening at the time. I really wanted it to work and I really wanted to be able to trust her, but it was all smoke and mirrors on her end.

One year later, she had another affair and I will always think she is a dirty whore from this point forward. I have even called her those exact words. She didn't like it, but the truth hurts.

I think if she showed real remorse and tried to work on our marriage and -- this is a big one -- did NOT cheat again -- about one year out, I would have been fully trusting and respecting her again. As it is now, she clearly doesn't deserve my respect.


D-day: 6/25/06
D-day #2: 8/16/07 Found out for sure she was seeing another OM while we were deciding to divorce, separate or work on the marriage.

Divorced 3/5/08.


Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: PA
thyme2go
Member
Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, October 5th (Friday)

When NC has been established and WS is remorseful, do you ever gain the respect you once had for your wife? Did the feeling of being "so grossed out" and "she's-a-dirty-whore" ever fade? What is the timeline?

NC was not established (she would/will not tell me who it is)... no remorse has been shown (one year at end of month)... I never lost respect... I do not think she is a dirty-whore and I am not grossed out by her. Our connection is broken.

That being said I literally have not touched her in any fashion post Dday (10.31.06) so I do not know if the problems you guys mention would have been an issue.

I come from the "no second" chances school and she glomped onto that fact as a Trump Card in her exit A... saying I would never treat her fairly and give her a chance while in R so she did not want to try. So we never tried R and (I suspect aided and abated by OM) she has filed for D.

Infidelity is one tough row to hoe and there is no easy answers to any issue.

-t2g


BH - no longer 49
3 DD's - (29, 25 and 18)
Divorced on 8/6/09

Posts: 9200 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Eastern Washington
manytriggers
New Member
Member # 14899
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, October 11th (Thursday)

It's been 3 months since my last post on SI and 6 months since D-day. The thing that is driving me mad is that I reach a point where I really feel like I have turned a corner and BAM!!! something unexpectedly knocks me off my feet....a song (listen to Ghosts in My Machine on Annie Lennox's new album at your own risk), a truly stupid new TV show (Michael Vartan's reaction to finding out about his WW on Big Shots)...I could go on, but I think you get the point. I never know when something is going to trigger me to fall down the rabbit hole OR how long I am going to stay in the hole??? I came back to SI because I am currently in a hole caused by the sources mentioned above. Lord...I feel so stupid admitting that...but that is where I am.

I came to what I think is a turning point in the past week, but I am not sure what it means. I know that I still love my wife, but I am not "in love" with her. I really want to fall "in love" with her again. I guess that will require the rebuilding of trust, respect and all those feelings we freely discuss on SI, but I am not sure??? I find myself in a state of confusion...yet again.

To all of you who are wondering what the timeline is. I really think we are talking about a figment of our imaginations. There is no timeline. You just never know when something will knock you off your feet. I wish I could be more optimistic...sound like a Hallmark Greeting card...but that's not where I am right now. Any constructive thoughts or just a simple "I know where you are" would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note, I must admit that I was relieved to hear that so many of you have had the "dirty whore" thought. My wife's A was an EA only on the internet and I still had that thought. You just never know what/who might console you???? Thanks SI.


Posts: 5 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Mid Atlantic
wonderingbull
Member
Member # 14833
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

I don't think I will ever respect her like I did. To me she was the brightest and hardest working woman that I'd ever known. When I found out she would go over to his house at lunch for her trysts I lost respect for her work side and then the lying and gaslighting ruined it on the honesty and virtue side. She ruined just about every type of respect I had for her.

Will I learn to respect her in a different way, maybe. Time will tell.

She's a completely different person now then she was before. If we ever have a real relationship again it will be with that very different person. Can I respect the person she is now? No. Will I respect the person she becomes? Maybe. I can substitute the word trust in for respect.

We aggreed to have a dinner date once a week to try to reaquaint our selves to each other. We'll see. Right now I can't respect her nor would I trust her...

Trust and Respect are earned, never given (again).

WB


The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time...

James Taylor


Posts: 6004 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: A better place
Strider75
Member
Member # 13596
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

so guys...what does a WW need to do to re-establish creditability and trust?

I'll name a few no brainers:
-NC w/ OM
-Openness and transparency and accountability

What else? How do they go about proving it?


Sometimes I wish there was a way to have do-overs in life.

Posts: 5033 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Atlanta, GA
manytriggers
New Member
Member # 14899
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

Trust and respect...trust and respect. There are those two magic words again. We all seem to think that if we find our way back to these two feelings toward our wives, all will be better.

I recently had a conversation with a relative who had just lost his wife. He shared with me a few big secrets about her that he uncovered during their marriage. I asked him how he was able to regain trust in her. He said he tried for years and finally came to the realization that he would probably never totally trust her again. I asked him how he was able to stay with her without totally trusting her. He said he learned to love her without totally trusting her because the history and life they had built together was too important to throw it all away over a few secrets.

I had this conversation 2 months ago. I walked away from it feeling kind of numb. I didn't know then and I still don't know if I am capable of living with and loving my wife without totally trusting her. But, it was another perspective that I haven't seen much of on this site. Any thoughts?


Posts: 5 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Mid Atlantic
tputer
Member
Member # 11353
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

This can be such a complex issue. In my FWW's case, she was molested by her bio father when she was 5. Was that her fault? Absolutely not.

Her hypersexuality and lack of boundaries was a direct result of her abuse. Again, was this her fault? I would have to say no.

But due to these issues, she had serial ONS's. Her fault? I'm inclined to say yes, but I can't discount the profound effect her abuse had on her. Yes she cheated. But she was also very damaged and was therefore predisposed to sexually acting out. Does this warrant my lack of respect? Hmmm. Toughie.

It's not so cut and dried.

[This message edited by tputer at 2:45 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]


Me FBH/WS: 48
FWW/BW (JP12861): 48
Married 25 years
Kids: 2 DD's 24, 20
My DDay: 7/16/06
Hers: 4/5/10

Posts: 20518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: San Diego Area
queequeg
Member
Member # 15395
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

My FWW left without even mentioning her ongoing affair.

I confronted her after she moved out and I had time to figure out what was really going on.

I asked her to reconcile, but she showed no remorse, no desire for NC, and continued impatience with me.

When a wife is sleeping with another man while she is married and still also sleeping with her husband at the same time, I believe that is slutty behavior.

I never really regained respect for her after that


Posts: 1030 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: maryland
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

My FWW has worked hard on learning what was wrong with her, and is working on fixing it. That helps me feel proud, etc.

About not totally trusting her again, the trust I had in FWW before was a blind trust. Had she earned it? Looking back, I don't think so. I think whatever trust I have in her going forward will be more honest, in that she has to earn it.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
manytriggers
New Member
Member # 14899
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

These responses point to the fact that we all deal with trust in very different ways and it means different things to each of us.

For example, wifehad5...you talk of the blind trust you had with your wife before going through all of this with her. I know...because of the conviction with which you state it...that is exactly the way it was for you. Yet I read that and it does not relate in any way to the feeling of trust I had for my wife before her EA. I was so secure in the trust I had for her for the first 20 years of our marriage. She had earned it in so many ways.

tputer...I can relate to your situation. In the conversations that have resulted since my WW's EA, I found out about a gang rape in her past. I always knew there was some form of sexual abuse in her past...just not the details. You are right...this must be accounted for in the way I view and deal with our problem.

Just had a thought from all of this discussion this afternoon. Is history...of the individuals in the relationship and of the relationship...more important than trust and respect. My relative who had just lost his wife seemed to think so. Any thoughts?


Posts: 5 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Mid Atlantic
Crossbow
Member
Member # 15224
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

Wow, this has taken an interesting turn.

My wife was molested by a cousin when she was a girl. It seemed like she had come to terms with it pretty well. Then when her mania hit, it was hypersexuality plus wildly impulsive behavior and terrible decision-making ability.

So where does that leave me/us now? I just don't know. She is definitely remorseful, willing to work on our M to heal it, patient with me, fully transparent. She also takes her meds every single day to keep further manic episodes at bay.

Wish I felt better about it all, though.


DDay 7/4/07 found out about online/sexting EA with OM
DDay 7/25/07 found out about OW
In R

2 DSs, ages 8 and 6
DD, 1


Posts: 9376 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Utah
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:19 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

See, Crossbow, we've got that bit in common that our wives were diagnosed as bipolar as a result of their A's. On some days, I feel like my wife's mental illness should mitigate some of the blame I place on her for her behaviors. People who are mentally ill do mentally ill things. They don't necessarily *mean* to hurt anybody, though the hurt itself is very real.

The problem with a mentally ill WS is "How CAN I trust them again?" Because the fact is, they're mentally ill -- which means that every stressor, every day they forget to take their meds, every time their bodies become accustomed to their meds and they need an upgrade, they're capable of falling into the same old self-soothing, risk-taking or destructive behaviors. I could pretty reasonably argue that *ever* trusting a WS who is mentally ill is outright foolishness.

At the same time, I don't want to go through my life viewing my WW as a poor, broken little bird who has to be swaddled in bubble wrap to keep her (and me) safe. I didn't get married to caretake a child. I got married to have a partner in life.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
tputer
Member
Member # 11353
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

hey don't necessarily *mean* to hurt anybody

Close - they didn't intend to hurt you or their children. What they did was ultimately self destructive. What my FWW was in effect doing was re-victimizing herself. This is very common in sexual abuse survivors.

Wincing, my wife isn't bi-polar, so I can't speak to that. I can only imagine how scary that is and how powerless that makes you feel.

But sexual abuse CAN be successfully treated - given that the survivor herself WANTS help. It took me finding out about her infidelities to finally wake my FWW up to the realization that she WASN'T alright. She HADN'T dealt with her issues. Once she admitted she had a problem and dedicated herself to treatment, the changes in her were pretty drastic.

Hell yes, the pain of what my FWW did still stabs my heart every time I think of it. But I have to remember she wasn't trying to hurt me. She was hurting herself. I was just a secondary victim of her abuse.

In this regard, I think there are some similarities between us. I truly don't think your W was doing this to hurt you. She was just spiraling in a self destructive cycle that took you down with her.

Again I ask, does this warrant your loss of your respect for her?

[This message edited by tputer at 5:38 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]


Me FBH/WS: 48
FWW/BW (JP12861): 48
Married 25 years
Kids: 2 DD's 24, 20
My DDay: 7/16/06
Hers: 4/5/10

Posts: 20518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: San Diego Area
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

Oh, I agree with you completely, tputer.

I was hoping in my post to make a distinction between "trust" and "respect", because I think they're two distinct qualities when it comes to dealing with mental illness.

To use a tired example: If my wife was an alcoholic, I could come to respect that she hadn't touched a drink in ten years, but I wouldn't ever trust her not to drink if alcohol was offered to her. And if she was a truly recovered alcoholic, she wouldn't trust herself either, and so would do everything in her power to minimize her exposure to temptation.

ETA: the closest I ever expect to get to trusting my wife again is not giving a shit. And if I ever get to that point, I'll file divorce papers the next day.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 5:47 PM, October 11th (Thursday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
tputer
Member
Member # 11353
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, October 11th (Thursday)

Great analogy. Trust IS a whole different beast. Do I trust my FWW? No, not completely. I still check her emails and cell phone.

Do I think she'll cheat again?? Highly unlikely, but the trust is nowhere near where it was when I was living in blissful ignorance. I suspect that will take quite a while to reestablish.


Me FBH/WS: 48
FWW/BW (JP12861): 48
Married 25 years
Kids: 2 DD's 24, 20
My DDay: 7/16/06
Hers: 4/5/10

Posts: 20518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: San Diego Area
Lonerider
Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, October 12th (Friday)

dang wincing, you sound like me.

DW has serious depression, and is also taking anti-psychotics (which kill the libido).

Last night I came home grumpy because of work, and didn't feel like dropping everything to become supersupportive EmpathyMan when DW bitched about work. DW got upset, nearly left the house (our daughters reacted, they're going to turn into codependents, too), and it just made a shitty evening.

When do I get an equal partner? Do I ever get one?


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
CUCKOLD333
Member
Member # 6140
DOH!  Posted: 6:07 PM, October 17th (Wednesday)

I WISH SOMEONE COULD TELL ME HOW TO REGAIN TRUST AND RESPECT FOR MY WW...

My first d-day was over 22 years ago and the last d-day was 3 years ago, with several more in between and I am expecting another one again any day as soon as she gets careless again..

The reasons that I stay married are several and complicated, but the main one is that I love her no matter what.

I TRUST her like I would a snake in the grass. I would not believe her if she was sitting on a stack of bibles in church and holding a stack of bibles..

I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR HER.., but I feel sorry for her.. She is a lifetime member of the "VICTIM'S CLUB" She tries to buy respect and love with money (most of which I have made)

She is 58 years old and needs to look as young as makeup and clothes will make her look. She needs for every man she meets to fall in love with her and many have over the past 40 years that I have been around her. They have been from 30 years older to younger than our youngest child, who is now 35..

She has a wonderful personality and never meets a stranger. Everyone loves her, including me....

She also has never shown any remorse. I have asked her several times if she wished that the A did not happen and she said "NO" She mentioned guilt once, but I didn't understand what she was feeling guilty about. I think it was getting caught. She refuses to talk about any of the A's and just wants to sweep them under the rug and never talk about them. Also no counciling and she even refuses to read Dr. Phil's book "Relationship Rescue" I learned how to forgive from that book and that is something I thought I would never learn. You may not believe it from this post, but I have forgiven her for past A's, just not present or future ones.

I learned to live with physical problems at a young age.. I was 35 before I learned to live with emotional problems.

My philosophy is "LIFE IS A BITCH AND THEN YOU DIE" My WW is not a bitch, she is a sweet person.. Just too sweet to too many men and has no morals or boundaries...

I hope most of you can regain your "RESPECT" and "TRUST" for your WWs, but as for me, I just gave up !!!!!!!!!

cuckold333 (again and again and again)

[This message edited by CUCKOLD333 at 6:16 PM, October 17th (Wednesday)]


Me-BH(59)Married 40yr.2 grown kids
Her-WW(59)Hard to get her to talk
D-DAYS:Several over the years
PAIN is necessary-SUFFERING is optional
The TRUTH hurts sometimes, but a LIE scars forever

Posts: 82 | Registered: Jan 2005 | From: Kentucky
champ
Member
Member # 8559
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, October 18th (Thursday)

It has been 7 years since her 3rd and last affair and the respect has never came back.

Posts: 108 | Registered: Oct 2005
thyme2go
Member
Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, October 19th (Friday)

My first d-day was over 22 years ago and the last d-day was 3 years ago, with several more in between and I am expecting another one again any day as soon as she gets careless again..

The reasons that I stay married are several and complicated, but the main one is that I love her no matter what.

Wow... and obviously!


-t2g


BH - no longer 49
3 DD's - (29, 25 and 18)
Divorced on 8/6/09

Posts: 9200 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Eastern Washington
heynow
Member
Member # 14342
Default  Posted: 8:37 PM, October 19th (Friday)

It's been a year for me and the trust is starting to come back. Before the A I trusted my WW completly. I never questioned her at all. I did feel like calling her names at first. She told me the OM wife called her a whore and my WW got mad. I thought what did you expect her to say. She is trying very hard to rebuild our relationship. I don't know if I will ever trust her again all the way. She promised she would never hurt me again and I think I believe her. I don't know why but I do. She has never done anything like this before in our twenty plus years together. I want to trust her but I never want to feel that pain again. I told her shes very lucky someone didn't get hurt (like the OM) You can only push someone so far before they snap. I believe I was very close to losing it. People should think about what others will do if there pushed to far. I am not a violent person at all. But people that know me wouldn't want me to be either. Iam a very powerfull big guy. That can defend himself if need be. I hope someday to trust the one I love. If I can't what do you do? Move on? Or stick it out?


WW 39
BS 40
Affair started 6-06
Married 17yrs 3kids B,G,B
EA Lasted two months, 1 week kissing and touching w a friend of ours.

Posts: 120 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: South
KAZ48
Member
Member # 16526
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, October 30th (Tuesday)

My wife isn't admitting to anything. I'm too easy to gaslight. Even though I've found so many clues of late, I'm still stuck in la-la land.


Heavy Heart


Posts: 123 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: Alabama
Strider75
Member
Member # 13596
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, October 30th (Tuesday)

Hey Kaz. What sort of clues do you have? Maybe we can help you get undeniable proof.


Sometimes I wish there was a way to have do-overs in life.

Posts: 5033 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Atlanta, GA
Crushed71
New Member
Member # 16914
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, November 9th (Friday)

I don't have confidence in her ability to make sound decisions, to select appropriate friendships, to maintain personal boundaries, etc. Of course, that could be because she doesn't seem to have made much progress since the A in making better decisions.

This is where I am right now. I guess the respect will return when I don't have to point out when and who she should be talking to. She just started IC yesterday and hopefully that will help.

I shouldn't have to monitor my wife's internet use more than her teenage daughter's.

Crushed


Me: 36 years old
Wife: 36 years old
Married: 3 years, together 8
Discovered the affair: 31 Oct '07.

Posts: 18 | Registered: Nov 2007
nebulous
New Member
Member # 12530
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, June 8th (Sunday)

Almost 2 years now since D-Day. I bit my lip with the whore thing but sure did and occaisionally still do think it. She is utterly remorseful and mentioned how ashamed she is of her actions.
She admits I always put her first and how I don't act the same as I used to act before D day. Duh!!!
She has changed too. She waits on me hand and foot. Sex whenever I want. Even willing to do things that she didn't used to be willing to do (if you know what I mean). I believe if we didn't have the two little ones, I would be out of here. But we do and I have to bite the bullet and make the best out of it that I can. You know the words, I love her, but I am not in love with her. I pray every day to fall in love with her again.


Me (BH) 41
Her (FWW) 39
2 kids: 7 yrs and 9 yrs
Married 19 years; R
DDay: July 21, 06
1st affair 6 mos ended 1996
2nd affair w/ boss 3 yrs ended 2001

Posts: 40 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: MI
shyguy
Member
Member # 18281
Concerned  Posted: 3:01 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Trust? never blind trust. Respect? probably never. We went to one MC. I asked her to go to MC, IC, polygraph, new job since she worked for OM. She responded by filing for D.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
lostcause111
Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 8:44 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Trust. Will never trust anybody like that again. If this M survives or I get involved with someone else I will always snoop.
The whore feelings. I have them but bite my tongue. Doing stuff in parks and our basement is what makes her one if I focus on it.
Respect. That will take a life time to come back if ever.
I actually think mental illness is prevalent in most wayward but it is not a get out of jail free card. they are adults and need to own their shit.

Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Outey
New Member
Member # 19752
Default  Posted: 9:28 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Given my fiance hasn't committed to R at the moment (D Day in Jan and subsequent D-Days in April (found out PA not just EA)) I'm still in the fog.

My major issue is respect and honesty and I told her to have a relationship we need that. In our first MC session together (one of the very few) she said to the counsellor she couldn't imagine anyone respecting her as much as I do. And yet I seem to be worth no respect at all (based on having an A then being lying and deceitful right up till today).

But then should I expect it when she hasn't committed to R yet?


Me - BS/36
Her -WF/38
DDay - 1/6/08
children- Daughter 3
Status: Want to R

Posts: 39 | Registered: Jun 2008
Hurtnstill
Member
Member # 12079
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, June 12th (Thursday)

I see lots of "nevers" popping up here. I'm a long way out from dday, and I admit I sometimes still trigger, but for the most part I both trust and respect FWW. She had one brief slip up, was remorseful, maintained NC, and gradually was forthcoming on the truth. I put myself in her place after the A, not during! It must have been extremely difficult to confess to me. She remained with me through the various phases of denial, anger, acceptance, and reconciliation. She must love me deeply to go through all that I put her through, not to mention the guilt she felt within herself. I called her names, I hated her for quite a while, I didn't believe a word she uttered for a time, but through all that she stayed with me and tried her best to get us both through it. Please don't give your FWW a Life sentence. Better to split up and move on than to beat someone up for something they no longer can control---Your mindset and thought processes.

[This message edited by Hurtnstill at 4:35 PM, June 12th (Thursday)]


FBS-Me 67
FWW-64
M-46 Years
Reconciled-34 years
Reconciled for 34 years

The more I get to know some people, the more I like my dog.


Posts: 345 | Registered: Sep 2006 | From: Pacific Northwest
acreswild
Member
Member # 19371
Default  Posted: 2:16 AM, July 19th (Saturday)

This thread started out about calling WW “dirty whore” and has taken a few turns since then.. I not only thought that.. I called her that and much much worse.. that was in the early stages post D-day… have not used words as nasty as that in a long time.

However someone wrote:

“When a wife is sleeping with another man while she is married and still also sleeping with her husband at the same time, I believe that is slutty behavior.”

Couldn’t agree more ,,it is slutty behavior.. selfish, uncaring etc

The question about trust is “trust to do what exactly”.. will she have another A?? I doubt it.. but that doesn’t take away what she did.

Like tputer, I discovered the LTA many years after the physical was over.. but she had continued A-related correspondence with him til she was caught 5 months ago…up til that time, no remorse, no shame, some guilt but never enough to amount to anything

And during much of this time she played the ultimate hypocrite of advising friends on multiple occasion when faced with a WS to “toss his sorry ass out”.. of course, all the WS’s were men… might be something here??

Tputer also mentioned his WW saying that she would do anything to make him happy, including D.. mine says the same thing… BS BS BS… it’s a hallmark or Oprah moment.. if they were that concerned with our happiness and to be that unselfish.. it would have shown up earlier.. its just another way of manipulating us… but then again she also said recently that she always felt that “she was really in our marriage”.. I guess her definitions of being in a marriage are very different than mine..

And back to trust… I am in this mess because I trusted her too much… never would have thought she was capable of some of this shit…

As far as respect… how can I ever really respect her again…I might get past it, suck it up, logically work out why staying is in MY best interests… but never respect , ever ever again..thats respect as a person.. she disrespected me bigtime without cause.... that took all my respect away for good…

I could go on and on…


BS-Me-59
WW- Her-59
Married 36 years
PA/EA/?A...depends on definition....
She finally admitted an old 3-4 year affair ( over 25 years ago) followed by a very sporadic on-again off-again 8 year PA followed by lengthy EA that would likely still be

Posts: 409 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Chicago
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, July 20th (Sunday)

My FWW ended her A (for good) 3-1/2 months ago. Since then we've been thru hell like everyone else.

I guess I am "lucky" in that she seems to have a great IC who is helping her make drastic changes. The way she is today compared with a couple months ago is like night and day. She's completely remorseful now, answers all my questions calmly, willing to help me heal however I say. And when I look into her eyes I SEE someone different than the person I was living with before - I see the woman I fell in love with 15 years ago. That might sound corny but it's true. She feels different to me.

I never thought it would have been possible, but I am slowly beginning to gain respect back for her. Through all our talks, I am discovering her personality flaws that led to this. She is really starting to open her feelings to me - which she used to keep hidden.

Today, I have hope.

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:43 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
andyd1950
Member
Member # 20018
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

It's been almost 17 years ad it still isn't back fully.
I don't think it ever will be.
One too many broken vows.


BS (me) - 61
fWW (her)- 57
Married 39 years March 17,2012

Forgiving, that's easy.
Trusting again, that's hard.
Forgetting, impossible!

"When you take things for granted, the things you are granted get taken away."~ RevRun.


Posts: 1190 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Albany, NY
toonice
Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, July 28th (Monday)

(listening to: Steely Dan; My Old School).

It was still september when your daddy was quite surprised to find you with the working girls in the county jail.
I was smoking with the boys upstairs when I heard about the whole affair, I said whoa no, william and mary won't do now. I did not think the girl could be so cruel, and I'm never going back to my old school.

Emotionally, I've been all over the place in the past couple of weeks. So I don't want to be hasty.
I have never called her a "whore" to her face. But I do hear that in my head.

I am terrified that if I "cut loose" with my feelings, she will give up and either D or commit suicide.

She is remorseful, very. She is in IC. But I believe that her problems are very deep and profound. And while she admits she feels humiliated and ashamed of what she did, she still won't accept responsibility for any of it, because she was raped, she was on antidepressants (which did have a pretty big effect on her personality, and responses and decision making process).

So I'm stuck between this rock and a hard place. If I demand that she work harder on her issues, if I demand that she take responsibility, then I'm being "insensitive to a rape victim". If I don't, then I'm faced with passively sitting back and watching her choose: face her problems and work to fix them, or watch her crash and burn again (taking me over the cliff with her).

I guess I have so little faith in her - seeing how weak-willed she is, I don't believe she's going to work hard on fixing her issues, she's going to give up if I don't push her.
I know what my MC would say: She can't become empowered if she doesn't want to, and ME pushing her to do so is counterproductive. It gives her a crutch to lean on.

But what about ME? What about MY life. Can't I say something or do something about who I'm sharing my life with without having to take the extreme measure of D, child custody fight, and all that crap?

So I continue to be walking this fine, twisted line. Each step is torture. Death and destruction on either side.

I will probably never respect the person she was/is again.

I believe I could probably respect the person she will become. When she finally gets the courage to become that person. And not for me; for herself. The motivation isn't there, because she hates herself so much.


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
shyguy
Member
Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

You need to do what is best for you. You may not be able to fix her. She needs to want to change. Please protect yourself. You deserve better!


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
plesk3yl
Member
Member # 18119
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

First, I'd like to say a thank you to all who've participated in this thread thus far.

It's 21mos since D-day. There was another 'crash and burn' day on Dec. 22nd 06.

I found a letter in April 07 and journal entries into Sept of 07. She continued to work at the same company (different cities but same department) until Dec 07.
Putting a firm date on how long it's been is tough. I know OM gave WW a CD of "songs that meant a lot to him" in December. They were working on a Habitat for Humanity House as a department charity event.

As long as she continues drinking, there's no trust and respect is limited.

The more I find out about the A, the sluttier she becomes in my mind. Just last night I asked about a phrase in the April07 letter calling OM the "sleepover king".
I'd read it before and it never registered too much, as I knew they had met in hotel rooms and such on business trips.
Yesterday it occured to me that this referred to a short period (3mos) she spent on a work project in OM's city. She had an apartment there. I asked, she confirmed, he spent the night there at every opportunity.

I don't know.. the level of respect and trust being what it is, it has me thinking I may need to get a change of scenery for a while and reevaluate where I stand.

[This message edited by plesk3yl at 1:57 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]


Me BS 47
WW 44
Married July 1986
3 Kids (12, 15, 18)
LTA 2 years+
D Day Oct 11 2006

Posts: 464 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: southeast usa
toonice
Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

Well, fWW was so humiliated and debased by OM, she actually WAS a whore.

She took a job as a "sensual massage" therapist; including "happy endings". She did this two times.

This one's really hard to swallow. Post d-day, money's been tight this summer (show of hands?) and she actually asked me if it was alright if she did this again - because she made $500 in three hours when she did this before.

I told her it would be like an alcoholic taking a job as a bartender. Not a good idea, and it would probably be best if she brought this up to her IC. Um - gee. . . Hello?! BOUNDARIES?!!

What really sucks about this, is she has most often been very shy and reserved in the bedroom with me. I know her VERY well. I don't like to think that. I know that. We have explored kink pretty thoroughly, in a safe, controlled environment. And deep down, she is really a modest little prude. Her behavior during this A was so not her.


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

Well, my 10 months later update (as we close in on 2 years post d-day):

Nothing has changed. I still feel exactly the same way now as I did in October 2007, when this thread started.

I had hoped by now that I'd have at least reached a milestone where I could recognize my FWW as a "good person", even if she is a crappy wife.

But no dice. I'm consistently amazed by her ability to be petty, grotesque, low and pretty much in every other way someone I wouldn't associate with if I wasn't married to her. If it means anything, even her laugh sounds coarse to me now.

I'm starting to suspect that she's been this way all along, and I just chose not to see it.

Over the last couple of months, I've resorted to porn just to get aroused enough to have sex with her. I find her sexual touch vaguely repulsive.

*shrug*

It is what it is.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Lonerider
Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, August 1st (Friday)

wincing,

Maybe it's time to see a lawyer. It's Hell to live that way.


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 2:51 AM, August 3rd (Sunday)

Wow... gaining respect...

i'm only 1 week from dday which really blows.

I've got the "dirty whore" syndrome... the "how the hell could you degrade me by having sex with me while you are f'ing this dumbass?"... the how could you think that this was okay for a year and a half? how many lies can you tell before you've told too many?

New revelations every day for "hmmm... I wonder if when she was gone this weekend she was actually with him"... new triggers for sending me down into the pit i've been living in for the past week... like a song or a movie or a family trip or whatever. How the hell could you ruin the entire fucking "A Fine Frenzy" album for me? I loved it and I can't listen to a single fucking song now!

Shit... we've been working with MC and having some good talks and she seems remorseful. Some days i'm sad... some days i'm just numb... some days I don't trust... some days i'm angry... and that's all in one fucking week!


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
Ron7127
Member
Member # 10145
Default  Posted: 12:19 AM, August 4th (Monday)

I congratulate those that can R and have soe respect, trust etc restored. But, the reality for most folks facing this is that it is a dealbreaker. You cannot unring a bell.
We are misled by websites and counseling services alleging that the marriage can be healed and made stronger. I'm sure it happens, rarely. Reading this topic, with all the guys still hurting after all this time, confirms for me that infidelity often denatures a marrige irreperably.
Sometimes we beat ourselves up for not being able to get past this. But, that is really, the most common reaction to a spuses infidelity. Things will most likely never be as good again. It is just such a brutal, divisive thing.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
Mr_Destiny
Member
Member # 18725
Default  Posted: 10:03 PM, August 4th (Monday)

"When NC has been established and WS is remorseful, do you ever gain the respect you once had for your wife?"

She's living with the OM and the only remorse she is feeling is that she was caught red handed at the hotel with him and had no way to lie about it. So, the answer is no.


"Did the feeling of being "so grossed out" and "she's-a-dirty-whore" ever fade?"

Nope, because "she is one," and the sight of her sickens me. Oh, and you left out selfish, narcissistic, and parasitic.

"What is the timeline?"

Umm... Eternity. With the things she has done with the A and afterward using our child as a weapon and a shield... That Skunt can rot in hell.


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything."

Me: 49/M (BS)
C: 16/DD (Alienated)
D-Day: 5/8/07
Separated: 5/8/07
Divorced: 5/21/08
50/50 means nothing to a Sociopath


Posts: 506 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Wisconsin
Clint
Member
Member # 11711
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, August 13th (Wednesday)

“When a wife is sleeping with another man while she is married and still also sleeping with her husband at the same time, I believe that is slutty behavior.”

I agree. I never had the whore thing going on, because she never took any money for doing the tricking. OM got my wife's goods for free. Well, not really, because I sure paid a hefty price, and in the end, so did she...but whatever...

The part that gets me is knowing my wife had the morals of an alley cat. MY WIFE fucked someone besides me.

I respect her in every way except sexually. I don't DISrespect her in that regard either, but sometimes (and this may be TMI for some) a hand job is more than sufficient, thank you.

Except for brief instances, I still avert my eyes if she's naked or while we have sex. Especially during sex, because when I look, I imagine OM looking at what I'm looking at, and the next thing you know we're back to the afore-mentioned handjob. *shrug*

I don't expect the sex aspect to ever be what it was. But I can live with the way it is now.

[This message edited by Clint at 2:11 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 3430 | Registered: Aug 2006
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

I hear you, Clint.


The good news is that we're men. We're easy to please.

I've been struggling lately with simply not finding my wife very attractive, which is somewhat new territory for us. Yes, she's put on significant weight since the end of the A. Yes, she and her mom just decided to give one another *horrible* home perms.

But once upon a time, those things wouldn't have mattered so much to me. She'd have still turned me on. Now when I look at her (especially nekkid), I'm a bit repulsed, and I think it's just more affair damage. I don't evaluate her physically giving her the benefit of being "my cherished wife", but the same way I would any other woman...and the fact is that she just isn't aging well and isn't making an effort to take care of herself.

I don't remember if it was this thread or another one, but I mentioned recently that I've had to resort to checking out pr0n lately to get physically aroused when I know she's feeling feisty. And for God's sake, the lights have got to be off.

And this is all enormously sad for me, because prior to the whole A mess, I thought my wife was gorgeous. I mean, I couldn't keep my hands off of her. We were one of those couples that people always joked about because we were so physically affectionate.

Now I have to force myself to be that way (even non-sexually) in order to keep from hurting her feelings rather than because I actually *want* to.

She told me the other day that she realizes I only initiate sex with her when it reaches that level of physical need where I'd be just as happy sticking it in a hole in the wall. And I couldn't disagree. That's pretty much what it is.

And worse, I don't really even feel the loss. I can't even remember what it felt like to be so attracted to her that I *wanted* to have sex with her just for fun or as a display of affection. I don't remember what it felt like, and honestly, I don't have the desire to rekindle it.

As horrible as it sounds, I seem to believe that she isn't "worth" fixing this part of our relationship.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

wow... Clint and wincing... couldn't agree more. My wife used to turn me on at every turn... and still does occasionally... but unfortunately it's short lived... shortly after any sexual thoughts at all and I just picture OM looking at what I'm looking at and then the thought of sex disgusts me. I can't look at her but I want to.... I can't have sex with her and at this point and time I don't want to....


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

How far out are you, Adam? Other than the typical hysterical bonding, I went through a phase early on (i.e., measured in months) where the thought of sex just wasn't appealing at all. Now it's just the thought of sex with my wife that's unappealing.

Seriously, though, typically you hear that women have trouble getting interested in sex without intimacy first. If this whole infidelity business has taught me anything, it's that men are actually very similar in that regard. We can have sex without any intimate attachment, but most of us don't actually want that. We crave the intimacy just like our wives do, and once that emotional intimacy is gone, the idea of having sex with them just isn't as appealing.

ETA: My wife tells me that I should just regard her sex with the xOM(s) the same way I did the couple of dozen guys she slept with before we got married. She was very promiscuous when we were younger (and before we met), and honestly, that never really bothered me. In her mind, the xOM(s) fall into the same category.

I wish it was that easy. Or maybe I just wish I was as easy as she is.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 10:33 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

I'm 2 and 1/2 weeks out...

Sex itself just is not appealing at all... aside from the thought of a revenge affair which I have covered in past topics....and that I think I would have to find another BW just so it wouldn't be just me using her but her using me too...

pretty sad justification if you ask me but difficult to not pursue none the less.


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

Oh, man. I feel for you.

You'll get no 2x4 from me regarding the contemplation of a revenge A (with the usual caveats: of course, it's normal to feel that way; of course, it's probably a bad idea; etc.)

I used to think revenge A's were a completely bad idea, but I've been around here long enough to see that some WS's just never "get it" -- never understand the magnitude of what they've done until the shoe is on the other foot. They completely lack the ability to empathize with their BS or refuse to let go of their fantasy justifications in order to fully participate in the healing process. In those cases, I just advise the BS to find a *single* OP ('cuz really, you don't want to put another guy in this world of hurt), and to wait for at least a year -- not because I think you'll snap out of it, but because unless you blindside your WS in the same way that you were blindsided, the revenge A won't have the desired impact.

But to paraphrase Clint's very wise take on the whole revenge A concept, one of the things you have to accept is that even if you do blindside her, it won't ever be the same way that *you* were blindsided. The first cut is always the deepest, so no matter what you do, your wife will always carry this seed that she deserves it...and really, the *not* deserving it is one of the great sources of agony for a BS.

Note: my opinions are my own, and not supported by most members of SI.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 10:47 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

I tend to agree with your opinion... not that i'm planning a revenge A but your logic is sound.

My reasoning for using another BS would be so she could hurt her WS like i'm trying to hurt mine....

son of a bitch deserves it as much as my WW... i'm out of the whore phase though... wrong choice of words... adulterer... slut... so many other words that do describe her.


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

How is your wife generally right now? Meaning, does she seem remorseful, or is she defensive? Is she blaming you for her mistakes, or has she started to own them? Has she established NC (though this one is essential, I can guarantee you almost 100% that she's going to break it at least once -- hell, my wife waited almost 18 months to break it, but break it she did)?

I realize that it's hard to tell anything with any certainty at 2.5 weeks, so I'm just asking for your sense at the moment.

Above all, know that it does get better. I actually used to hate the fact that I knew it *would* get better, because I felt like I had been so damaged that the very fact that I would "get better" or "get past it" almost seemed disrespectful to my pain. But the key to getting better is focusing on you, on your happiness, your hobbies, whatever you can find to distract you from the present pain and rage.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 11:10 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

She seems remorseful at times.. but then times she seems like she's blaming me and my actions (which I haven't been the best husband in the world) for everything. Like she is justifying it.

You're right though... I hate the thought of getting past stuff just because i'm so angry and hurt right now.


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:24 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

The past stuff can be very hard to hear early on. Look, we both know objectively that we weren't perfect husbands. Even if we tried to be perfect husbands 100% of the time, we'd still fail, because we can't predict another person's needs all of the time.

Early on, my wife would stress that she wasn't blaming me for her choices, but when she tried to explain her mindset ("I didn't think you cared about me anymore"; "You were so busy with work"; "I felt neglected"), it felt like an attack, like she was blaming me.

Then I realized that there were many times in the marriage where *I'd* felt that way, but I didn't blame her for it -- I accepted the circumstances as unfortunate but temporary, and realized we'd get through it, and I sure as hell didn't cheat on her because of how I was feeling.

It is 100% normal to be disappointed in your marriage or your partner sometimes. That has less to do with marriage than just with sharing your life with someone else. At the end of the day, her choices had nothing to do with your behaviors, even though IN HER MIND (and only in her mind at the time) your behaviors contributed to her giving herself permission to make the choices she made.

So if she's trying to explain her thought process leading up to and during the A, try to take it that way. If she crosses the line and seems to start blaming your perceived failures for her choices, then you should drop the hammer on her.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
adamj
Member
Member # 20425
Default  Posted: 11:26 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

thanks wincing. That helps some.


BH: 32, WW: 32
DDay #1: 7/9/08, DDay #2: 8/2/08 - trickle truth, now divorced. (7/14/2010)
DS - 9, DD - 5

Last 3 years of my life have been spent avoiding sleep or having to deal with the demons when it is quiet.


Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Iowa
Tim3167
Member
Member # 17195
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

I haven't posted in awhile, but boy this thread feels discouraging. While I can relate to some of what I've read here, I do feel the need to offer my own take.

Respect for my fww.....Well actually as a person I may have actually gained a little net respect for her. I mean her actions of weakness and lack of morality during her short affair obviously equals a big negative in my view of her and what she is capable of.

But here is where I offer the flipside of that...my fww has faced and owned up to those actions and has stood by my side while I have made her feel like a worthless piece of shit and a slut. I mean after she joined this site and understood the danger of trickle truth, she told me she was "intimate" with him in his flippin office which is in the next building over from where I work. I never would have found this out on my own and she told me something that we both view as pretty damn low and disgusting. I don't think I would ever do the terrible things she did during the affair, but I also don't think I would have had the courage to tell that piece of betrayal.

Here's the net result for me. I now see my wife as a person capable of terrible acts and not neccesarily the angel I always pictured, but I also see a woman who is stronger than I ever imagined in dealing with the aftermath of those choices.

I'm still not always sure if our marriage can survive the betrayal...I think that may be an ego thing for me...but I do know that I view my wife as a strong person who has faced demons that I'm not even sure I would.

[This message edited by Tim3167 at 7:14 PM, August 14th (Thursday)]


BH 42 (me)
WW (39) (posts as "Meeko")
DDay #1 11/18/2007
DDay #2 4/2/2008

Posts: 122 | Registered: Nov 2007
andyd1950
Member
Member # 20018
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

It's gone and it's not coming back. It's a one time only thing. Not that I don't love her but there's no respect. She didn't respect me or my feelings.
As for sex, it's non-existant. There are just too many C***ks in there for me. Not enough room. And the mind movies are reruns, lots and lots of them.

[This message edited by andyd1950 at 12:10 PM, August 15th (Friday)]


BS (me) - 61
fWW (her)- 57
Married 39 years March 17,2012

Forgiving, that's easy.
Trusting again, that's hard.
Forgetting, impossible!

"When you take things for granted, the things you are granted get taken away."~ RevRun.


Posts: 1190 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Albany, NY
Clint
Member
Member # 11711
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

Ya know...I'm not so BS oriented that I don't realize there are some BS's out there that truly DID drive their WS's batshit crazy prior to their affair.

Short story (scant on detail): My brother recently divorced his wife of 19 years who had her own affair about 4 years into the marriage, and then withheld sex for the last 10 of those years, (and never apologized for her affair until she realized he wasn't bluffing about the divorce). Unfortunately, he became a WS in the whole process. I think it was a belated revenge/departure A.

She richly deserved the divorce, but certainly not tainted with the infidelity.

One of the main reasons I never had an RA was because I didn't want to live with that sort of *ick* on my conscience, even had I confessed it. I detested infidelity prior to it happening to me, and I remember well how twisted I used to think affair folk were, especially if it was someone I knew.

You maintain your integrity for you...


Posts: 3430 | Registered: Aug 2006
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

I dunno-I'm nearly 10 mos out-nothing has come back to me. We still have sex, but it ain't the same & I don't think it ever will be the same.
I know a lot has to do w/bruised ego on my part-I'm not good enough so she had to go elsewhere.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

Er, hasn't this thread been in the "I Can Relate" forum for like the last year?

I could have sworn it was in there last night. Any idea why it's in General now?


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, August 14th (Thursday)


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
wonderingbull
Member
Member # 14833
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

Just a mystery of the universe .

I just read back through here and I loved the line... "morals of an alley cat"!

WB


The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time...

James Taylor


Posts: 6004 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: A better place
Sarek
Member
Member # 17610
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

I can probably offer one of the lengthiest perspective of this question as my wife's physical betrayals ended (so I am told) over 15 years ago. I can tell you that the stain of her infidelity did fade with time for me, but I have to admit that I never completely restored my respect for her as the pretty and vulnerable princess that I fell in love with. I learned to respect her for many other traits and attributes, but the old image was tarnished forever. For me (and probably most men) this question becomes more tragic and deep-seeded if your woman was a first (virgin) and stole this precious sanctity from you. Sadly, my timeline can be measured in decades.


BS - 48 Male

Posts: 112 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: Maryland
hard_to_breath
New Member
Member # 20650
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, August 15th (Friday)

New to group.

D-Day was yesterday. 3 PA, 2 OEA, 1 ONS. I only suspected the very last PA that ended in January. I have no clue what is going on. I don't even know if reading these posts is helpful, or making things worse.

M-18 years, with S-4 years old


Posts: 1 | Registered: Aug 2008
shyguy
Member
Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, August 15th (Friday)

Hard to breath. Please read the healing library. it is to your left in the yellow column. I am sorry you are here. It has helped me tremendoulsy to read here. It can help you decide whether to end the M or stay together. You make the decisions.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
Weightless
Member
Member # 20799
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)

I still have the "dirty whore" thoughts about my wife. D-day was almost 2 months ago. I even called her a whore a couple of times when my anger got the best of me , even though there really wasn't very much sex in her affair, it was 95% text messaging. It has more to do with the total disrespect she showed me at the time she was involved with him.

I still look at her sometimes, like at innocent times when she is bending over to get something, and think about how I would look at her before when she did that, and think, "wow my wife is hot, and that hot ass is just for me." Now, of course, I can't look at her the same way. I think about the way she went over to his apartment the first time, blew him, and left(sort of like a whore). I think about the way she said to me in a text conversation "I wish you wouldn't focus so much on sex, sex is the least of our problems" as she was walking to his apartment to fuck him. She had declined sex with me the night before because she knew she was going to fuck him the next morning and "didn't want to feel like a slut." Huh? 11 hours, 24 hours, what's the difference? Guess what honey, you were a slut at the time.

She is remorseful, and we are doing pretty well getting through it, but I definitely have not gained back the respect I used to have for her two months in. She seems polluted.



Posts: 170 | Registered: Aug 2008
Jimi40
Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)

Wow, well, d-day was July 05, and I still have most of the same feelings as the rest of you. I don't believe she can make healthy friendships, I believe she will do it again, I am in a bad place right now though, and this could all change in a heartbeat.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, September 3rd (Wednesday)

Sure, we have some good days. But man oh man do the bad days suck royally.

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:45 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:22 PM, September 4th (Thursday)

I read Jimi's post and realize (have realized for awhile) that I'm in the same place, and as far out as we are -- the place where the A has receded into the background for all intents and purposes -- chances are it *isn't* going to change.

We've settled into our trenches and the A isn't a fair topic for conversation anymore. My wife changes her passwords and doesn't bother to tell me anymore because I should be done checking up on her...and yet she trolls through my history and looks at what I'm doing on-line over my shoulder because she's constantly suspicious that I'm going to do what she did.

But she doesn't talk about it.

We've settled into a pattern where for the most part, we live completely independent lives. If I ever bring up the A, even as context for my attitude about the relationship, it's "throwing it in her face". She never got it.

I told her the other day that as far as I was concerned, the entire dynamic of our relationship changed on D-day. She told me that was bullshit. We were still who we always were. I just refused to see it.

That pretty much sums up our impasse. For me, the A was a life-changing and attitude-changing event. For her, it was a bump in the road that's now behind us. She won't accept the new dynamic because she liked the old one just fine.

I've had to fight tooth and nail for every concession in R, and she maintains that she's done everything I asked...which isn't actually true. All I asked for was complete NC from xOM and his family. She hid contact for 18 months, and then blatantly broke NC in April. But she's not fucking him again, so in her mind, she's done all that was asked.

And that's the problem, really. All she's ever attempted was what I asked. She's never been proactive about changing herself, because her 2-year A was never anything more than a bump in the road.

So I offer this: If your WW makes no serious effort to change, then it's actually stupid to change your attitude from what it was post D-day. She's the same person she revealed herself to be then, just not currently practicing unfaithfulness.

And I think this scenario is much more common than we're led to believe in this environment. Most of us probably should have gotten divorced immediately. Most of us probably realized immediately that change is something our WW's just won't do. But we stayed, probably for a complicated mix of things like kids and finances, and maybe even love, but that dries up pretty quickly as time passes.

I'm learning that I'm not an R cheerleader. I'm learning that the best possible outcome for our healing is probably divorce. I have yet to see one concrete personal reason (personal means for my health and well-being, not things like kids and finances) why R is worth it.

And after two years, I've given up expecting anything different. Life goes on. We get along. We fight more often, and when we do, the fights are more brutal because I'm enormously sensitized to the fact that many of the fights are based on disrespect (i.e., she doesn't like the way I do things, doesn't approve of how I handled something) that I won't tolerate any longer.

As far as I'm concerned, she gave up the right to ask me to change solely to suit her desires the moment she climbed into another man's bed. Maybe that's the wrong attitude. Maybe that's my fault, but I'm also sensitive to the fact that other than NC, I haven't *asked* her to change since D-day. I figured the necessary changes would be self-obvious.

I felt that way while I was reading "Not Just Friends" and "After the Affair" and "The Five Love Languages" and a dozen other books. I felt that way while I was joining SI and trying to heal, to find the best way to cope with infidelity and move forward.

And all the time, she sneered. She rolled her eyes at what I was reading and at reaching out for help from people going through the same thing. All the time, she was rolling her eyes at me and waiting for me to get over it, because it wasn't a big deal, not really. Eventually I'd see that trust and respect were just a choice that I had to make, because that's what you do when you're married. And even if the trust and respect are misplaced, you make that choice anyway, because that's what marriage requires.

And so, she will never understand. Not because she can't, but because she won't.

And I'll continue to play this game, to play nice, to maintain the status quo, until I decide I won't any longer.

And that'll be that, because as my wife says, "It's not worth talking about any more."


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
learning25
New Member
Member # 20911
Default  Posted: 9:05 PM, September 5th (Friday)

Thanks, Wincing. This was pretty powerful stuff for me. My WW showed tearful regret only on d-day...which was followed up with a ladleful of blame heaped on me. No real expressions of remorse. From day two, it was business as usual. Kind of her normal way of dealing with all our conflicts...sweep it under the rug and put on a smiley face.

She also has problems with maintaining NC. After her third failing, I saw an attorney and told her we are D-ing. She was shocked, but did not protest or ask for another chance. Strange, she thinks it's OK to keep her single OM and his parents as good friends.

I may give her another chance at NC. Mainly for the sake of the kids. Sucks, because it's not hard to imagine that in a couple of years, I may also be living your post. I have to give this more thought.

_____________________________

Me: BS 53 yrs., married 25 yrs.
WW: 54
Kids: Sons 19 & 16
D-Day: Feb. 9, 2008


Posts: 2 | Registered: Sep 2008
TwoHearts
Member
Member # 20647
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

So I offer this: If your WW makes no serious effort to change, then it's actually stupid to change your attitude from what it was post D-day. She's the same person she revealed herself to be then, just not currently practicing unfaithfulness.

This got my attention, it sounds like something I want to write and don't know how.

At first this almost sounded like toxic shame where you can't seperate the act from the person. But in reality she violated the NC rules.

Those rules are absolutes for me, deal breakers for sure. After all she has refused to deal with and the blame shifting I have gone through, if my WW violates any of my absolute boundaries I really will be impossible to find.

She can try to figure out where I went for the rest of her foggy life.

Wincing is right it eventually has hurt for just too long, no human should be so confused that she can not see anything but her version for this length of time.


1Sa 22:23 (NIV) - "Stay with me; don't be afraid; the man who is seeking your life is seeking mine also. You will be safe with me."

Posts: 681 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: 2nd Place
Ron7127
Member
Member # 10145
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

I think it is ver tough to accept that some people just do not view cheating as a big deal. Thye view sex as merely a bodily function and attach no significance to it. As men, we are taught that women are not this way. But, it is becoming more and more evident that this attitude knows no gender boundaries.
Lokk at the folks on Jerry Springer and the characters depicted in shows like "Desperate Housewives" or "Sex in the City". These shows are geared toward female audiences and they are very popular. Some women are just very superficial and have a sense of entitlement(just like some guys).
I know both my XWW's are like this. To them, their infidelity is no big deal. They do not spend a lot of time worrying about it. I don't think they see it as a big deal.
WHen you are involved with someone with such different values there is no hope for the relationship.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
lonelynlost
Member
Member # 18616
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, October 24th (Friday)

Well, my story is much different then most of you. My WW never could go NC because she was in LUV!

Anyway, when I looked her in the eyes after d-days she couldn't take it. Too much shame. After the total disrepect and her going further underground, I had to separate to take care of myself and remove myself from the toxic energy that was present in our house. It was morbid and really bad. At the end she was outwardly going to see OM. Pathetic I know but once an addict always an addict.

As far as respect and whore thoughts, I sure could not respect her afterwards. I did have the whore thoughts, however I never said them aloud although she could tell my emotions were hurting and anger was very prevalent during those times.

As far as respect, no I never regained that for WW. She didn't do much to attempt to regain it and therefore, I wasn't going there. I did give her chance to R, however, she was too confused and triangulated to think anything straight.

She always had boundary issues that I would caution her about to no avail. The OM works closely with her so after D-day she would cherish going to work to spend time with f_buddy. Weekends were horrible. She was sad because she couldn't see OM and abhored being with me.

Anyway, several months out (anti-versary is 10/25/08) and separated, I've regained respect for myself which has been really powerful and healing. I'm much happier now and we're close to finalizing D so things are looking up.

She still has her issues, does some IC occassionally. She knows she did wrong, however, she doesn't see any reason to give up her OM now. Her adult children (19, 21 & 22) are all home and loathing there mother's behavior. She's selfish and taking care of "her" needs regularly with OM, while I'm here dealing and healing from the aftermath.

I pray that God will help her because it doesn't seem as though much else can at this time.

LonelynLost


Me-BS 56 XWW-53

DD-10/25/2007
Separated 3/8/2008
D Final 8/31/2009


Posts: 517 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: South Jersey
shyguy
Member
Member # 18281
Question  Posted: 7:33 AM, October 29th (Wednesday)

Lonelylost, mine has boundary issues. She works for OM. After one mc she filed for D. She moved near his house. I don't respect her. FWW don't respect themselves. Why should we respect them?


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
Tim3167
Member
Member # 17195
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, October 29th (Wednesday)

Earlier in this thread I talked about in some ways I have actually gained respect for my FWW and that is still true. She really has tried to face what brought her to a place that allowed her to ignore her values and act in such a destructive way.

My problem is the part of me that is maybe male ego that feels in some way that now that another man has done those sexual things with my wife she is somehow now tainted.

A little history on my situation is that my wife lost all boundaries with a co-worker friend and slept with him every night while away on a 3 night business trip. She also perfromed oral sex once on him in his office before I discovered the whole thing. She said it was all about wanting his attention to keep comimg and the office thing was all about shock value to keep him interested.

After initial trickle truth that lasted about 4 months (she was afraid to tell about the office thing) she has been nothing but great. She has been going to MC and IC to understand what led her to that place and why she dealt with the need for attention in such an inappropriate way.

So here I am with a wife who has totally turned her life around and changed her priorities and speaks of nothing but her shame at what she did and her desire to live our life together.

Do any guys out there have advice for me on how you got past those thoughts of your wife with that other guy though. I'm really looking for thoughts from guys who have felt this and gotten past it. It won't help much to hear from 50 guys who all still think their wife is a slut.

I don't want to look at my wife and think of her giving a blow job to some guy in his office. I want to look at her and see my best friend again and the mother of my children. How do I not think of her as somehow different just because she had sex with someone else?!

She seems to be fully committed to Reconciliation and I want to be able to give her the same thing but I'm just struggling a bit.


BH 42 (me)
WW (39) (posts as "Meeko")
DDay #1 11/18/2007
DDay #2 4/2/2008

Posts: 122 | Registered: Nov 2007
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, October 29th (Wednesday)

Tim,

I struggle with this also. All I can say is that it does get better with time. I just went through a long perios where this was out of my mind. It's come back recently, but I'm working through it. I think time really is the healer here.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37855 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
meetoomeetoo
Member
Member # 20891
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, November 1st (Saturday)

I think you have to take her back to 'girlfriend status' in your mind. What I mean is to be not so committed to her to start and let her EARN her way back. You have to NOT CARE so much. Just like when you met a girl you liked you started probing and getting to know her to see if she was the one but were ready to cut her loose if you found any bullsh*t. I feel the same way towards my wayward wife. It's kind of a mental shift for doing the 180. If you think of her as a girlfriend, so to speak, you'll feel a lot more cavalier towards her and the things she does will not hurt as much. It's working for me. I've domonstrated that, even though I have her in my life, she is replaceable. Remember, the only reason people have affairs is because of selfishness and taking you for granted. Pull back and see if she pushes forward. If she does you get your wife back. If she doesn't you get your LIFE back.

Posts: 268 | Registered: Sep 2008 | From: Philadelphia
caretoomuch
Member
Member # 12625
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, November 9th (Sunday)

Well ,I've been avoiding this site for awhile...too painful in some respects,plus I've fallen in love with my motorbike...
Nevertheless we are2 years out. The period after D-Day was horrific. I certainly didnt pull back on the defensive behaviour. I let it rip in all the full total honesty. And she took it all. I stopped one day when she begged my to stop and said if I didnt and stayed all I would have left would be a shell. She declared a complete lack of self esteem from her background and the A. She claimed she had changed and could see what she had done to her and our life. Our children, grown daughters x3 were told by her about the A.
She has got a full time job and contributes most if not all of her earnings to the M.\ She works hard around the house and is disgusted with the A. (see the profile for her history of SAb) ..Yes some repect for her efforts is returning. BUT if I was 20 yrs younger and had no children I'd be off. I now look at other women and wonder about them as life partners. Something I never did before the A. If I stop doing this I would consider healing well on the way. If I dont ,well thats going to be difficult.

[This message edited by caretoomuch at 8:29 AM, November 9th (Sunday)]


2006..Me 48
WW 47 OCD/ Sex Abuse by brother
Married 21 years,together 27
Teenagers
PA when engaged and now 3 1/2 yr PA with best friend
Dday 10 Nov 2006
Dont feel too bad ,people destroy the ones they love all the time.Its n

Posts: 640 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: floating, 2012..going
Lonerider
Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, November 10th (Monday)

care,

It's a long, painful process, and there's no guarantees.

Of course, there's no guarantees in starting over with a new woman, either.

I hear you on the bike, I'm about to put mine away, I haven't had a good riding season since 2005 (what a coincidence).


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
wherewerewe
Member
Member # 20631
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, November 13th (Thursday)

Tim3167,

I am a BS. I had the same visions and lost respect for my fww as you talk about.

Not only did she perform OS she had AS with her OM as well. To make the vision worse, It was in my bed in my house!

The answer is "Time". You just have to accept it. Hard to do, hurts like hell. Does the thought ever go away. NO. It always exists, it just fades.

The question is really "would I be better off staying with this person,who I loved dearly or do I move on?" I looked at it from the standpoint that there is no guarantee, a new person could be worse. What is better the "devil" you know or the devil you don't know.


Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2008
LeftHanging51
Member
Member # 13826
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, November 13th (Thursday)

How about giving up the devil you do know in exchange for no devil? That works fine for me. I've decided to give up on my WW and instead focus on my work and financing my son's college education.


D-Day #1: 2/07
D-Day #2, #3, #4,....too many to count
Me (BS): 54
WW: 57
Married 8/05 (2d marriage for both)
Divorced Feb. 2011

Posts: 162 | Registered: Mar 2007
Tim3167
Member
Member # 17195
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, November 14th (Friday)

Thanks Wherewerewe for the response.

My wife and I have had some good conversation lately about how she acted in such a promiscuous manner with the OM during the affair as compared to her sexuality in the marriage with me. Finding out the details of her actions during the affair were even more shocking to me because I just didnt think my wife was that sexual or permisive a person. We were still sexual but not very often and it certainly didnt seem like a priority to her.

In her affair, it seems to me that it became important to her because she ended every night on that trip by sleeping with him. It had been a verrrry long time that we had ever had sex three nights in a row.

I guess what I acknowledge but have trouble accepting is that the very nature of what she was looking for and led her to the affair in the first place (i.e. attention and validation)resulted in her using sex differently than she did with me. I was there and she knew she didnt really have to impress me with sex to get my attention (that would have been nice though). In her affair she reverted back to a place where she used sex as the tool to keep the attention coming. You see to her she swears it wasn't about the sex, but about using it to get the attention.

In a talk yesterday she admits that she acted like a slut during that time and looking back on it now it disgusts her as well as me. I think hearing her admit that helps me to put this into some perspective that this isnt who she normally is and that I havent finally seen her true colors.

To get back to the subject of this thread, I think this is my path to regaining some of that respect for her as my wife. She has learned some things in IC about her having some abandonment issues and never learning how to appropriately handle her need for attention or how to let relationships develop appropriately.

I just have to keep remembering that my wife is not truly indicated by the person I see in those damn mind movies. I suppose I would hate for someone to continually judge me solely by my worst moments in life.

I'm about a year out...it still sucks...but I maybe somedays can see a gliimer of light in my darkest thoughts.


BH 42 (me)
WW (39) (posts as "Meeko")
DDay #1 11/18/2007
DDay #2 4/2/2008

Posts: 122 | Registered: Nov 2007
lostboy36
Member
Member # 21588
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, November 22nd (Saturday)

Wow, am I glad that I found this forum. I unfortunately had to join the SI club because of my WWs A, my D-day was 2 months ago. I've always had issues with the decisions my W made and I suspected the A for a long time. I almost caught them once, but allowed myself to be lied to and I knew she was lying, for a long time. So many things that many of you have already posted rings true with me, though the "dirty whore" hasn't. Unfortunately the mental movies play entirely to often. I don't know if I'll ever believer or trust her again. We've been in MC for 5 weeks and it seems as if I defend myself more often then I would have thought. As if my actions or lack thereof drove him between her legs. I've gotten some details on their physical and emotional A. I think she lied about a good deal of it to try and "protect" me. At this point I don't know where we are going or if trying to R is worth it. She'll never know how deeply she has hurt me, though she is extremely remorseful. We have our good days and not so good. To use the light at the end of the tunnel analogy...I see the light off in the distance, but I don't know if I have the desire or energy to walk to it. I'll also concede that light is completely unknown to me. Will be the completion of R or D. Though to be honest seeing some of the posts on SI from other BSs that are 5,6,7+ yrs out from D-day are not encouraging.


BS - me
FWS - her
Two amazing kids
Trying to R
Trying to cope with it all

Posts: 149 | Registered: Nov 2008
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, November 23rd (Sunday)

lostboy, welcome but sorry you find yourself here. Unfortunately you are just starting your journey, and it will be difficult for quite some time. But it does get better. Although my life is still a struggle, it is more bearable than a few months ago. I am able to enjoy time with my kids again. And sometimes FWW and I get along rather well. And other times not so much. At 7 months out I usually believe her (thanks to her IC). The light in the tunnel is far off but you can reach it, whatever that light ends up being.

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:46 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
destroyedw
Member
Member # 20528
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, November 24th (Monday)

You can see my timeline below, but I am 3+ months from D-Day. Partial NC has been achieved, but still works with OM.

My question is - I was consciously not told a truth this past weekend about her going out with her friends from work. I am traveling 1,000's of miles away on business so I can't see everything. I called home to find a babysitter Sat night. Called WW - no answer. She finally calls the next morning and after some pleasantries, I get into the issue with her not telling me. She said that it was the lesser of 2 evils. I say it is more disrespectful to not tell knowing I will find out anyway. She purposely did not tell as she was afraid I would be upset and ruin her night out.

This is the kind of respect I just don't get. Her not going full NC, deception about who she goes out with and when and little remorse for A.

When do they get it? I guess I am still dealing with a foggy WW.


Me: BH (41)
Her: WW (41)
Married: 17 years
Together: 21 years
DDay: 8/2008
DS:13 DD:11
Status: D filed 2/2009 - moved out 3/2009

Posts: 208 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Philadelphia
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 12:53 AM, November 24th (Monday)

Yeah, dw, that is definitely beyond the pale.

When do they get it? Sometimes they don't.

For my wife, it took being repeatedly busted over 18 months for it to begin to sink in that she wouldn't get to go back to doing whatever she wanted.

She never once came to me and admitted anything. I had to bust her every time. She was always keeping secrets, hiding things, picking the lesser of two evils (and just behaving honorably never entered the picture). And it wasn't even so much sneaking around and doing terrible things behind my back. She just wanted to do whatever she wanted to do and figured that if I didn't know about it, no one would get hurt.

Well, except her, because she always got busted, and then had to re-experience the whole shame/guilt/embarrassment cycle of discovery. In many ways, having a FWW who doesn't get it is like parenting a teenager.

So, the question is, if she's going to keep pulling these stunts, what are you going to do to make those decisions uncomfortable for her? You can't force her to make the correct decisions, but what you can do is make sure that the incorrect decisions make her miserable.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
destroyedw
Member
Member # 20528
Default  Posted: 2:11 AM, November 24th (Monday)

Wincing,

Our new MC is demanding NC. So finally someone else is telling her NC. Old MC did not do this, called OM a distraction.

So, I am hoping that NC will start a new attitude. Help her see differently.

She still has not removed OM from her heart.

If this does not work, it is off to the next step. D I refuse to sit and be used as a provider while she pines for someone else.

Any other suggestions?

[This message edited by destroyedw at 2:12 AM, November 24th (Monday)]


Me: BH (41)
Her: WW (41)
Married: 17 years
Together: 21 years
DDay: 8/2008
DS:13 DD:11
Status: D filed 2/2009 - moved out 3/2009

Posts: 208 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Philadelphia
Jimi40
Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, November 25th (Tuesday)

I just read this whole thread, and thought about respect.

Respect means a lot of different things. On a practical level it seems to include taking someone's feelings, needs, thoughts, ideas, wishes and preferences into consideration.

Did my wife take any of these into consideration? Nope!

Does she now? Only some.

Do I take any of these into consideration? Truthfully, yes.

Do I think she ever will take all of these into consideration? I have my doubts.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
toonice
Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, February 5th (Thursday)

The biggest one I lost is sincerely being able to know I always had a woman who stood by my side, thick and thin, no matter what. When I see a guy, proud of his wife... I just think "Gosh... I really wish I could make that speech someday... But if I do, I'll just be thinking in my head "And here's to my wife, who was with me through everyt... I mean, through almost everything."

Yeah - that one REALLY stings. The lost of the illusion that I had a PARTNER for life.

In my case, my FWW actually WAS a whore. Not only would she screw a different partner when OM#3 told her to, she also went on her own to get a job doing "sensual massage" with happy endings. (by her account, she only did it twice, and had to have her trainer finish for her because she couldn't complete the task).
And for the record; no, I have never called her a "whore" to her face. I'd be afraid she'd kill herself.

She gave me a sob story about how she felt "worthless" - and you know how she spent the money she made? Christmas presents for me. How sweet. :puke:

But as far as respect goes - she told me that she did it because OM#3 "made her" and she couldn't get him to leave her alone. To that, I answer. . . either she was a rational adult, who made decisions she should own. . . or she is not mentally competent, and should be institutionalized.

Thinking of one's spouse in this way - no, I do not think that respect is ever coming back into this relationship.

She never had it for me in the first 15 years. So now for the rest of our M, that disrespect will be mutual.


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
Jimi40
Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, February 6th (Friday)

A long way out, and still not fully recovered, I'm thinking maybe, I'm expecting too much.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, February 6th (Friday)

Im 11 years from Dday#1 and soon to be 2 years from Dday#2.

The respect never came back fro me. Hers was a LTA that undermined so much of our marrage that there just wasnt any foundation to build anything on.

Like many WWs she never took responsibility for her A and always said it was my fault. Early on in R she told me that it was my job to win her back since it was my actions that drove her away in the first place. We tried MC and IC but never found a good one. In the end things normalized to the point where I was ok with the M. Then after a lot of years of NC she thought it was ok to reconnect with her old friend (OM) because they were such good friends before the PA started and it would be good to catch up.

Just prior to her reconnect I was getting more and more of those white lies you guys are talking about. Lesser of evils, didnt want you to get mad, and all the other excuses were told to me as well. Eventually they escallated to her seeing her OM again. I busted her on that one. She says nothing happened but there is no way I could know for sure, and with all the white lies and didnt want to hurt you lies I just cant believe her. She says they are NC now but again I dont know that really.

Do I respect her now? No. Did I respect her during our false R? No. Did I respect her before Dday#1? Yes, but she didn't respect me during that time. I think to give respect you have to feel respected. I also thing that for many of us BHs the disrespect of our WWs EA & PA is just too much to get over. We hang round hopeing it can work out but it rarely does.

We are headed toward D but with the econ the way it is its hard to sell the house, so its taking longer than it should to finalize the D.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
jjct
Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, February 10th (Tuesday)

haven't read all 7 pages here.
there's a timeline?
as long as memory may last,
however long THAT is. lol!

Posts: 6833 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
thelonelyone
Member
Member # 12350
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, February 11th (Wednesday)

I didn't really have "dirty whore" mentality, just "whore". LOL! But I kept that to myself. It did fade and has faded, but it was over a year before it did, maybe even 1.5 years. I think its the day to day, the rebuilding of respect that gets rid of it IMHO.

Cheers.


Me: FBS/FWS (31), ONS (FWW encouraged)
Her: FWW/FBS (25), PA (1 week)/EA (4 weeks)
Children: D - 3; S - <1
Married: 5 years
Together: 7 years
Her D-Day: 08/07/2006
My D-Day: 09/10/2006
Status - Good/R'd

Posts: 192 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Texas
dragonfly2008
Member
Member # 18847
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, February 11th (Wednesday)

I never considered her a "dirty whore" - in fact, it's one of the things I didn't call her.

Right now, it's one year since d-day so I'm triggering more than I have been. My emotions are swinging so I can't say I feel much respect for her right now.

However it has been slowly coming back. I know there's no straight line to recovery, I will have setbacks.

My history with her shows that she can be an incredible human being, and she has shown true remorse and is working hard on us.


"All I've ever learned from love is how to shoot somebody who outdrew ya." - Jeff Buckley

Posts: 327 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: New York City
HurtinFool
Member
Member # 22544
Default  Posted: 6:57 PM, February 11th (Wednesday)

I also never called her a dirty whore. Respect, yeah, she has lost it. Not only because what she did, but the fact that she will not own up to what she did.

[This message edited by HurtinFool at 6:58 PM, February 11th (Wednesday)]


Me: BH
Her: WW

Posts: 63 | Registered: Jan 2009
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, March 7th (Saturday)

I just past my first D-day antiversary, and my emotions have taken a nose dive. Thinking back to how she treated me like a piece of s*%# makes me .

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:47 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
Weightless
Member
Member # 20799
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, April 13th (Monday)

Our D-Day is July, but this time last year my FWW was in the thick of her A. Her birthday , 3/14 , was tough because she had intercourse with OM the first time on 3/13. The other dates of her sexcapades and other hurtful things she did are burned into my brain as I tick through the calendar. I was looking through some of my pictures the other day and happened across the one I found in her email and downloaded to my computer of when she took a picture (with her iphone) of her pussy from a resturant bathroom while out with her friends and emailed it to her soon to be fuck buddy. Her wedding ring is nice and evident on her hand which is holding up her skirt. Good shit.



Posts: 170 | Registered: Aug 2008
hurtingbad
Member
Member # 17199
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, April 13th (Monday)

i am a little over 18 months post d-day and still struggling horribly. respect and trust are shot and no where to be seen.


Is there a cure for stupidity? I sure hope so ...

Posts: 565 | Registered: Nov 2007
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 10:44 PM, April 13th (Monday)

Weightless, that is horrible. What gets into these people anyways?!?

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:48 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, April 14th (Tuesday)

Those sorts of stories always remind me: why is it that so many women spend their whole lives demanding that men (and especially their husbands) "treat [them] with respect", but as soon as they become OPs or WW's, they can't degrade themselves fast enough?

It's like repudiating your entire life up to that point in order to stand on a rooftop and shout, "NO, I AM A SKANK! I REALLY AM!!"

I will never forget that on D-day, one of my wife's "demands" in staying (after she begged me not to toss her out not an hour before) was that I treat her "with the respect [she] deserve(s)" through the whole process of reconciling.

And I'm thinking, "The amount of respect you deserve? Oh, like that's going to be hard."


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 12:00 AM, April 15th (Wednesday)

...

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:50 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
Weightless
Member
Member # 20799
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, April 15th (Wednesday)

Those sorts of stories always remind me: why is it that so many women spend their whole lives demanding that men (and especially their husbands) "treat [them] with respect", but as soon as they become OPs or WW's, they can't degrade themselves fast enough?

Holy shit! That's so true!



Posts: 170 | Registered: Aug 2008
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, May 17th (Sunday)

...

[This message edited by cani4give at 6:51 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:35 PM, May 18th (Monday)

I gotta tell you: in my book, that's the BH equivalent of the "Did OM have a bigger dick than me?"

You *can* be honest about your eternal lack of respect, but it's just going to hurt everybody in the end.

It's a question that should never be asked...and understand that if she *does* ask, it's like you asking if OM had a bigger dick. You don't really want the truth...you just want reassurance that you're the one.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
MrSam
New Member
Member # 24394
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, June 13th (Saturday)

I've lost a lot of respect for WW. Not sure if I'll ever respect her again....

Posts: 1 | Registered: Jun 2009
cani4give
Member
Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, June 14th (Sunday)

Hi there, MrSam. Sorry you find yourself here, but know that you are welcome.

You are on a long, difficult journey. Have you read in The Healing Library (located on the left) yet? That's a good place to start.


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
musiclover
Member
Member # 23172
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, June 15th (Monday)

I've lost all respect for my STBXWW. The lies, deceit, the way she lied to our daughter. I honestly don't think I will ever respect her again.

Posts: 1539 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: Ontario
lingerdog
Member
Member # 24459
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, June 23rd (Tuesday)

Right now just one week post D-day, I can't stand the thought of WW and OM when I talk about it with friends I call her a fucking whore, and they all look at me shocked. I tell them, I don't really believe that way, it just makes it easier for me not to love her so much when I say that out loud. I don't really think she's a whore, I think she was weak and saw an opportunity to go for someone who lets her be the boss, she didn't feel like a boss at home, but neither did I, and since she doesn't live with him yet she doesn't have to "clean up after him" <---her complaint about me.

[This message edited by lingerdog at 1:18 PM, June 23rd (Tuesday)]


What lies behind us & what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
Oliver Wendell Holmes -Stolen from Uni's page

Posts: 8941 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Awesomeville
ForwardProgress?
Member
Member # 24759
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, July 9th (Thursday)

I'm 6 months out from DD. Her ONS was 1 year ago. My respect level for her changes daily, usually with how responsive I perceive her to be to our relationship. What the OM did to her on the ONS was disgusting, and her failure to stop it (reportedly due to drunkenness) really knocks her down in my eyes.

I know she loves me and has been truly great to/for me (this 1 exception). She definitely loves the kids and is a great mom (again this 1 exception). But she's mostly quiet (always has been) and the lack of communication leads to bad images/worries/etc.

Sometimes she's really on it - receptive, affectionate, communicative. Sometimes she's not. We don't talk about it anymore, but it's the elephant in the room.

One of the bad parts - she's really very, very beautiful and sexy. But now I see all the flaws I never noticed before. They are truly minor and I know other guys are always after/attracted to her, but now I see the flaws. I hate that part. I really hate it because I know the other side/before. My prize in life now has a mark. Damn it.

It was a drunken, one-night stand. She let herself get sweet-talked by a younger guy who ended up as a real creep. It's stupid and I want to get past it.

She wants it to go away and is remorseful. She more than deserves a second chance and forgiveness.

From what I've read on SI, I guess this is kind of progress. Hopefully we can break through.


Posts: 242 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: SW, USA
ChrisK6014
Member
Member # 24647
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, July 9th (Thursday)

When I read all these timelines I get depressed. Now that my WW is back, I am hopeful for the future. I think everyone has their own timeline, and I don't want to put into my head that it will be 2 years, 5 years, etc. If it is two weeks I would be so happy.


Posts: 121 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: USA
Lost68
Member
Member # 27515
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, February 21st (Sunday)

Bump

Posts: 1476 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: Sevilla
deeppain
Member
Member # 27760
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, February 25th (Thursday)

Dday was January 30th. She went to spend the weekend with the OM and insists to this day no PA. She brought toys with her. She has told me three distinct times NC but continued. We hit rock bottom on 2/20 and she has so far been consistent with her NC. We are starting counseling. Unfortunately I think it is too late. The mind movies have taken over and she still does not own up to all that the A encompassed. I love her but at this rate I will never be able to trust or respect her. The feelings of her being a "dirty wh*re" are frequent. I never in a million years expected this. The reason why I feel that is because although I confronted her on the phone and found out the truth that Saturday, she still insisted on staying that night at the OM house and coming home on Sunday. It makes me sick.


ME:37 yr old BS
HER: 39yr old WW
16 years married
18 years together
Currently Separated
Divorce incoming...
2 kids

Posts: 97 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: PA
Lonerider
Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, February 25th (Thursday)

deeppain,

Welcome to SI.

Right, spent the weekend, brought toys, but no sex. Does she think you're a naive idiot?

Good luck with counseling, her story makes no sense, and without the truth you may never heal.


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, February 25th (Thursday)

wow had no idea this thread was here.

I am 2 yrs out & still have no respect for WW, she had none for me while on some other guy's lap while wearing my ring, while looking me in the eye & lying, telling me I was paranoid, crazy, they're just friends, etc. etc.-I have none for her.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
jollum
Member
Member # 25152
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, February 25th (Thursday)

I have to agree with a lot of
the others. I don't think I will ever get my respect for her back. I'd like to have the respect I did before but it is just not possible.
I'm 8 months out, married for 29 years. WW had 4 yr.LTA. I can't see how I'll ever respect someone who could lie and deceive me willingly for that long. I may love her again someday but her respect was earned by raising our kids, hanging with me through the tough times and most of all, keeping her vows. She has now proven that none of that mattered more to her than screwing him in a parking lot. It's truly sad to see how much she has lost in all of this. Most of it she doesn't even realize yet.

Posts: 269 | Registered: Aug 2009
SourCherryDrops
Member
Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 2:35 AM, February 26th (Friday)

I guess it depends what you attitude is to the situation your in.

If you feel that your WW is the person that had the A, that you were completly wrong about her before your D'Day, then i think its easy to see that you will have a hard time respecting, or forgiving her.

However if you think that during the A she was 'Not herself' or 'Acting out of character' then i think there is a much bigger chance that she can redeem herself and that the respect will return.

As for a timeline, I dont think there is, although our situations are all very similar, we are all very different people, And we will get through this (or Not) at different paces. Perhapes a better question would be to ask 'What are the stages for gaining Respect?'


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
andyd1950
Member
Member # 20018
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, February 26th (Friday)

I have no resect for her any more.
That ended when she betrayed my trust and love.


BS (me) - 61
fWW (her)- 57
Married 39 years March 17,2012

Forgiving, that's easy.
Trusting again, that's hard.
Forgetting, impossible!

"When you take things for granted, the things you are granted get taken away."~ RevRun.


Posts: 1190 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Albany, NY
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:09 AM, March 1st (Monday)

wow, kind of a depressing thread.

I try to focus on the emotional aspects of the A, her remorse, her efforts in MC, but I get wrapped up in images of the sleeping together on trips, daytime meetings, the times she just s***ed him off to grt it overwith, the herpes she contracted...

I hadn't thought about it much until reading it here, but my perfect wife who I adored and lusted after through 50# of weight gain and loss is now looking old, ragged, worn.

She used to be the only figure in my sexual fantasies, but now it is her and one of them, or someone else. I have lost something.


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Workin It Out
Member
Member # 27473
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, March 2nd (Tuesday)

Wife has been remorseful since day one, but caught a break of NC in the first few weeks. I am learning to respect her for being open, honest, and commited, but it will never be what it was. The being grossed out part is still fresh as DDay was only 5 weeks ago. The visions and nightmares of her being naked in the arms of another man along with the other acts are quite vivid so nausea sets in frequently.

I did accidentally call her a dirty whore one night during sex, but I didn't mean it. It was a heat of the moment thing.


I believe there's a ghost of a chance we can find someone to love....And make it last - Rush

Posts: 130 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: Between here and somewhere else
resigned
Member
Member # 12903
Default  Posted: 8:33 PM, March 2nd (Tuesday)

I'm with andy on this one.
I don't think it's possible to regain it. At least not for me.

[This message edited by resigned at 8:34 PM, March 2nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 1:02 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

This is an excellent thread.
Dday was 10/5/09 she had a 1 year A with her first boyfriend from way back. They made plans for a new life, were "soul mates", etc. Now we are in R. She confessed to another PA over 10 years ago. She is doing everything right now, NC, MC, IC. She is remorseful, open, loving.
Do I trust her? No. Will I ever? Doubt it. I have an odd problem that I would like some advice on. I think I am addicted to her. She is gorgeous, a 10 and even at 40 she has the figure of a woman half her age. I look at her and melt. I touch her and get turned on instantly. I hate to admit this but if this wasn't the case I'd probably D her. Even after her A's. I want her. Trust is gone. Respect is gone. I still love her, still desire her and can't find the strength to let go of her. I dread a life of mistrust, suspicion, lack of respect and living with the betrayal but I still want her. Am I crazy?

Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
simpleguy78
Member
Member # 25753
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

in my case my whole 10 year marriage has been fake.I'm dealing with a dirty whore who has a personality disorder.i never will respect her again. she has came clean there is nc,but then again who really knows,i'm just waiting on a good moment and i'm gone...i can't forget or forgive it's been about 8 months now l'm not seeing the light,....i'm ready 4 the day i truly don't think or care for her......


If i can do it anyone can .My hpd wife was my only friend for 13 years....don't let the fear of being alone ruin your life....people will come ray

Posts: 77 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: memphis,TN
resigned
Member
Member # 12903
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

Alex-you're not crazy. Go with your feelings. If you love her and enjoy being with her, be with her.

It takes time to process what has happened. Your thinking may change in the future or it may not.

If she's doing everything right you can heal from this. My FWW hasn't done everything right and therein lies the difference.


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
trynhard
Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

Timeline for gaining respect?

Respect - esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability.

After now 18 months since dday...

I do not have a pride that I once did with my W. I'm just now starting to accept she just was not a good woman... but she appears changed today... our relationship is better... more loving.

She does have many great qualities and that is why I stay... She's clean around the house, good cook, good with our kids, has been good to say I'm sorry, put up with all my pain... I also stay because we are now having fun together... going to casino, out to dinner, movies, just the two of us... we talk more everyday.

All this does not stop the fact I think about infidelity everyday... several times a day... not with so much hurt to want to tear up or anger... just thoughts. I can shift my mind these days.. but something everyday always triggers me... It's my new life I would say.

Anyway... I guess would say... Some respect is coming back.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:07 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2703 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ao534q
Member
Member # 27593
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

I have lost the pride of calling her my wife. I have lost the motivation to take care of her and help her through her tough times. It doesn't even bother me if she gets hurt.

As a matter of fact, just the other day, I was happy when she told me she got a cut from a kitchen knife that I had just sharpened. I get a sick sense of joy knowing when she is hurt.

I hope these feelings go away someday. They are definitely not healthy and do not help he relationship at all.


Posts: 64 | Registered: Feb 2010
trynhard
Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, March 3rd (Wednesday)

Of course you can gain repect to your WW... What does it take?

Your WW wanting it and you wanting to respect again.

Respect is a choice, not a feeling... It takes alotta mind control... and time.


ao534q.. maybe you should just go ahead and D? Why punish yourself? What I did was to take my W by the arm and shoved her into the car to leave a bruse about 2" in diameter... loving huh? Hell yeh it hurts us... I frickn should have gone to jail that night...

But today... I'm different. My wife is different. It took alotta work with help from many good people...

Peace to ya brothers...

[This message edited by trynhard at 1:39 PM, March 3rd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2703 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, March 4th (Thursday)

I have lost the pride of calling her my wife. I have lost the motivation to take care of her and help her through her tough times. It doesn't even bother me if she gets hurt.

I feel ya there-I used to call her wife or darling, now I no longer even mention I'm married anymore. In fact a couple folks have asked me if I'm still M'd.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
surprisedguy
Member
Member # 28601
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, June 7th (Monday)

This is something I have been wondering for the last few weeks. I never had the dirty whore thing. I kept telling myself that she was a good person who made a bad decision. I keep telling myself that 20 years of marriage shouldn't be wiped out by one bad decision. However I find myself doubting just about everything she says. To the point where I have to ask myself who am I going to believe, my newly found inner demons or my own lying eyes. I don't think I will ever trust her judgement again at nearly the same level that I did before. I hope that I can develope a level of trust that is close to what I had before. I find when I think about the plans we had for the future that they don't really matter to me anymore. Most of those thoughts begin or end with if we are still together.

Posts: 652 | Registered: May 2010 | From: California
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, June 7th (Monday)

I could have written your post.

To the point where I have to ask myself who am I going to believe, my newly found inner demons or my own lying eyes.

Very good point.

plans for the future... Most of those thoughts begin or end with if we are still together.


Yes, this is a brutal thing. We want to move forward, but what for and with whom?

Guess time will tell!

Good luck!


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, June 7th (Monday)

that's the tough thing about liars-how do you know they have quit lying?

hard for me ta tell...


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
betrayed1012
Member
Member # 26112
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, June 7th (Monday)

I wish I could really answer this. My WW never did anything to regain my trust or accept responsiblity.

What would it have taken? For her to end it and have NC. For her to admit it was a mistake, that it was her's and I didn't cause it. (I'll accept responsibility for marriage issues, not the affair) For her to earn my trust by being honest and open again. For her to be the woman I married again. I don't know the person that looks like my wife now.


BS 52
WW 41
Dday 10/12/09
Filed Divorce Complaint 2/1/10
Together 18 year
M 14 years
Children: 11 & 7

Divorced 10/14/10


Posts: 1010 | Registered: Nov 2009
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, June 7th (Monday)

What would it have taken? For her to end it and have NC. For her to admit it was a mistake, that it was her's and I didn't cause it. (I'll accept responsibility for marriage issues, not the affair) For her to earn my trust by being honest and open again. For her to be the woman I married again

My FWW has done all of these things but it's still not enough. So maybe it doesn't matter, what's done is done and one will always find a problem even if the WS does *everything* right.

Having said all that, I find myself trusting her again inch by inch. WHo knows, at this rate maybe sometime in 2020 I might not suspect her anymore_


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
oftenwrong
Member
Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, June 7th (Monday)

My first love cheated on me almost 20 years ago. I loved her so deeply, I thought I could never love someone again.

Even after all of this time, I wouldn't have respect for her.

I will tell future SO's the same thing I told former cheaters.

"Do you really believe I would ever accept you back after another man's D*ck has been inside of you?"

Sorry but my anger sustains me eternally.


[This message edited by oftenwrong at 1:22 PM, June 7th (Monday)]


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
Tim3167
Member
Member # 17195
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, June 9th (Wednesday)

For myself I feel that there are so many layers involved as far as how I see my wife post affair.

In the above post I think there is a lot of this concept of the wife who is tainted forever because another man was in places that should only be reserved for a husband. Sometimes it feels like our wives are like that money stolen from a bank with the red dye packet exploded. Like everywhere he touched is tainted. I struggle with this at times too but I look at her and intellectually know that this isn't true. For me I feel those thoughts are my ego and maybe my masculinity talking. I love my wife and would lose so much if I left because of such a guttural emotion.

Another side of how I see my wife now is trying to understand who she really is. I'm lucky to have a wife who has really tried to do the work to repair the marriage and herself but as has been said, there has been damage done and even perfect actions now can't undo some of what an affair causes between two people.

I'm 2 and a half years out and I'm still working on really understanding who she is. Her affair at times has the effect on my vision of who she is now in a way that looking at the sun leaves powerful spots in my vision for a time afterwards. I see how she really is different but it can sometimes be hard to see because of those "sunspots".

She was a flawed and selfish person who made some horrific choices that I have to deal with whether or not I stay married to her. I do try to see her though in a more complete outlook though, which includes the bad as well as the good since.

I guess what I was trying to get across to those who feel that feeling of tainted wives is there is no red dye packet.......


BH 42 (me)
WW (39) (posts as "Meeko")
DDay #1 11/18/2007
DDay #2 4/2/2008

Posts: 122 | Registered: Nov 2007
virtualv
Member
Member # 28565
Default  Posted: 6:29 PM, June 11th (Friday)

I think I respect my WW for the hard work she has been doing since her A. Its not easy to fundamentally change yourself. Alot of WS will simply leave/D.

So respect is there.

But I do feel like when she gives others R advice or talks badly about other people. What a joke is that?

She was, like with some of you, very willing to tell her friends and family before and during her A how to work in a marriage and be a good spouse.

I find that really hard to deal with. How can you be THAT good at lying? Its scary and i think i will always have a wall around myself to protect me from her. Because i really trusted her 100%. I dont think i ever will, but its still early days since latest A.

[This message edited by virtualv at 6:32 PM, June 11th (Friday)]


Me: BH 34, Her: FWW 32
Married 11 years
3rd & Final DDay: Dec 20, 2009

"Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past can be different"


Posts: 873 | Registered: May 2010 | From: BC - Canada
brokenheart59
Member
Member # 28304
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, June 13th (Sunday)

Wow like a lot of the WW's here mine was abused as a child and said for a long time she felt like if she caused a man to get excited she had to take care of him. We talked about this before we got married and she said she did not feel that way any more that she had dealt with it. But in reality she had not because after we had been married for 4 years she allowed herself to get to close to 2 different men she worked with and then started an affair with both. That was 15 yrs ago it ended when she was fired she did not end it. Since that time there was one other kissing and touching and numerous EA's the most recent EA was in Jan of this year. I have no respect or trust at this time and don't know if I ever will again.


BS-Me
WW-Her, 3-5 years 2 different men
true feelings for 1

Posts: 174 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: US
deeppurple
Member
Member # 28757
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, July 4th (Sunday)

I havent lost respect for her but she has lost my trust & I've lost faith in the goodness of people.

Interestly she never watches the news - the only time she decided to watch it they were announcing Tigers divorce settlement. It was a trigger for me & I left the room.


Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
inittotheend
Member
Member # 27138
Default  Posted: 12:22 AM, July 5th (Monday)

Well, my 1st dday was 25 yrs ago and i still don't trust her. I am 99% sure she did it again 7 yrs ago. But hey, maybe that's b/c I don't trust her. As for respect, sure for all sorts of external things. Respect for who she is as opposed to what I thought she was, never gonna happen.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Jan 2010
foxrider522
New Member
Member # 25246
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, July 17th (Saturday)

Soul Dreamer:

wow..... Isn't that the truth. The lose of trust and respect is huge, but the lose of having "that ONE person" that has always been on your side and 'the knowing' that they always would....... Loosing that.......that betrayal may be worse than all the other failures, broken committments, promises etc....... Thank you.


BS (37) WS (35) OM (46)
married 15 years
together 22 years
2 daughters
DDay 5.30.09

"The problem with trust is.....you don't know it's gone until it's too late."


Posts: 17 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: Arkansas
SELI550
Member
Member # 27749
Default  Posted: 4:20 AM, July 23rd (Friday)

Wow!! I see so many guys on here who I can identify with and share my feelings exactly. Trust and loyalty are everything in a marriage with love being in there somewhare. The trouble with "love" is that it seems that a cheating spouse can "love her husband", but still go out and sleep with another man that they don't love. I feel like such a sucker for not catching the signs of her infidelity (it was done right under my nose" or even questioning her as to why she had become so verbally and emotionally abusive during her affair (with her boss who was also married). That...and her not being there one iota during the period I was diagnosed with cancer and the brutal treatments that followed. Loyalty, trust, love...not there!!! Now, 14 months later since D-Day she has convinced herself that it was all "his" fault and she was victimized. Bullshit!!! I almost fell for that one and became an idiot again, but miraculously woke up and saw her lies for what they were and made the decision that I wanted out. So my friends, after a couple of upcoming family member birthdays and event are through, She gets nuked and the divorce proceedings will begin. She will probably never understand why I can't stay, but I no longer care what she thinks. I gave her a wonderful life, truly loved her almost in a romance novel way, and never turned my back on her, ever. How stupid was I??? Ok, I'm a little jacked up right now and rambling, but it does feel soooo good to have finally freed myself from the terrible pain she inflicted and now it is her turn to be tossed in the trash bin.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Feb 2010
SELI550
Member
Member # 27749
Default  Posted: 4:21 AM, July 23rd (Friday)

Wow!! I see so many guys on here who I can identify with and share my feelings exactly. Trust and loyalty are everything in a marriage with love being in there somewhare. The trouble with "love" is that it seems that a cheating spouse can "love her husband", but still go out and sleep with another man that they don't love. I feel like such a sucker for not catching the signs of her infidelity (it was done right under my nose" or even questioning her as to why she had become so verbally and emotionally abusive during her affair (with her boss who was also married). That...and her not being there one iota during the period I was diagnosed with cancer and the brutal treatments that followed. Loyalty, trust, love...not there!!! Now, 14 months later since D-Day she has convinced herself that it was all "his" fault and she was victimized. Bullshit!!! I almost fell for that one and became an idiot again, but miraculously woke up and saw her lies for what they were and made the decision that I wanted out. So my friends, after a couple of upcoming family member birthdays and event are through, She gets nuked and the divorce proceedings will begin. She will probably never understand why I can't stay, but I no longer care what she thinks. I gave her a wonderful life, truly loved her almost in a romance novel way, and never turned my back on her, ever. How stupid was I??? Ok, I'm a little jacked up right now and rambling, but it does feel soooo good to have finally freed myself from the terrible pain she inflicted and now it is her turn to be tossed in the trash bin.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Feb 2010
RKT429SS
Member
Member # 28883
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, July 23rd (Friday)

A lot of negativity here which is understandable, so lets see if I can help. Chew me up and spit me out if you think i'm off base.

4 Months out. No respect as of now. HOWEVER, let me provide two approaches I’m taking to build that respect up (granted under my circumstances) and hopefully that will help others.

1) I was an asshole, uncommunicative and hows this for irony…disrespectful to her. Yeah, I know we are not supposed to blame ourselves. But me placing at least some of the blame on me helps ‘rationalize’ it and therefore in an f’d up fashion puts some respect back in place.
2) We are in R and although trust is still shaky, she is trying. Trying really frickin hard and I see that.

So for those of you struggling, my approach is to at least give the WW respect on these two fronts (again, if they are applicable to your situation). Never will the respect come fully back, but at least it will come damn close.

I think respect can be recognized in portions, for lack of a better word. It isn’t a binary, ‘go-no-go’ thing. This angle I’m taking is the only way I can at least get some solace regarding the respect issue.

Keep your head up guys.


Me - BS 38
Her - WS 37
MOM - coworker,with 2 kids, EA&PA approx. 6 mo
Us Married 10 yrs (together 15 yrs)
1 girl, 1 boy
DDay 3.15.2010
Working on R

Posts: 217 | Registered: Jun 2010
oftenwrong
Member
Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, July 23rd (Friday)

As each day passes, she becomes dirtier and and dirtier in my eyes.

The idea of another man's penis and semen in her turns my stomache so much, only total amnesia from a club to the head will make me forgive or forget.

I can imagine forgiving your WW's would be the hardest thing to do in your life. I could NEVER, EVER EVER see myself doing so.



ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
WhiteCarrera
Member
Member # 29126
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, July 23rd (Friday)

I am in soooo much agreement with many of you. Since our D-day, my wife has been 100% remorseful and transparent, and yet it's still so hard to trust. I feel like I'm still vulnerable to being made a fool again. How do I ever really know if she's being upfront, or just giving me what I want? The other guy had pretty much blown her off and ended things on his own accord when I found out, so I can't really know if her remorse is honest or just convenient as her other option is gone anyway.

It was one night of sex, followed by her trying to contact him for six weeks, then he reached out and they met to talk and "seal the coffin". I have no way of knowing what her reactions would have been if he had been open to continuing, and so I'm constantly in doubt.

She says she has always loved me, that it was just a single mistake, and that she has always been 100% regretful -- and yet I know it was six weeks of her choices. Now, when she tells me she loves me, she expects that to help, but it hardly means a thing, since she claims that she loved me at that time. So what's the point? Her loving me wasn't a deterrent then, so why should that make me feel good now?


If I want recovery, then I must allow for it to actually happen.
Is it possible that I actually do have all the truth now?

me - husband A46
her - wife A42
Married 17 years
D-Day August 2, 2009
3 kids 11, 13, and 15


Posts: 277 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Midwest
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, August 5th (Thursday)

Now, when she tells me she loves me, she expects that to help, but it hardly means a thing, since she claims that she loved me at that time. So what's the point? Her loving me wasn't a deterrent then, so why should that make me feel good now?

I get & got the same shit, the same ILY I heard, then she would call OMM the second I hung up.

just words to make them feel better, IMO.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
WhiteCarrera
Member
Member # 29126
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, August 5th (Thursday)

Yeah -- it's just hard to know what will make me feel good again. Her saying, "I love you," and also saying "I've always loved you, even then," just creates a contradiction that does no good.

By both of our accounts, things were great for us at the time she started the affair, so I have a hard time figuring out what we're working to regain. Things can return to great, and I'll not be sure if it really means anything or not.


If I want recovery, then I must allow for it to actually happen.
Is it possible that I actually do have all the truth now?

me - husband A46
her - wife A42
Married 17 years
D-Day August 2, 2009
3 kids 11, 13, and 15


Posts: 277 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Midwest
Semaj
Member
Member # 31886
Default  Posted: 7:10 AM, July 7th (Thursday)

I read through this entire thread over 2 days and it makes me shutter.
I want to

My long time college friend who was a lady killer always said that no matter how fine/beautiful/sexy/whatever, somewhere there is a man tired of screwing her or putting up with her bovine fecal matter.

I never knew how right he was. I also wonder if the true power in the relationship lies with the party that cares the least then where does that leave us as men who suffer through this wretched thing.


Posts: 57 | Registered: Apr 2011
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 5:11 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)

I can only hope that those moments when I can see the beauty and love can oneday be the norm again.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1161 | Registered: Jul 2011
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)

I also wonder if the true power in the relationship lies with the party that cares the least then where does that leave us as men who suffer through this wretched thing.

The key is to quit caring, IMO.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
nuance
Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)

Wow, didn't know about this thread. First WAL's reply shocked me until I saw the date. WAL 2007 is way different than WAL 2011. We can see the healing.

I wish sometimes I could go back to that now deleted 2000 Yahoo groups and read what I wrote then.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1229 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)

Anyone gain the respect of their WW again ? Today I don't see respect except for parenting skills. In all other places I don't see respect. Hell I don't know if I even like her right now.

The weird part is that I can still have sex with her. I don't feel loving, it is more about meeting my needs. I provide for "her" physical needs too, but emotional connection is all but absent. I might as well be using a love doll. I feel a little guilty about this. Is this because I don't respect her ? Does some sick part of me get satisfaction by "using" her ? Anybody else witness this ?

The guilt goes away once the reality of our situation hits me, but I feel the same after a session that I did when I took home the ugly girl from the bar back in my single days. Is this making sense to anyone ? Anyone have similar thoughts/issues ?

Do I have an unhealthy attitude towards sex ? Guys level with me. Is there something messed up there ?


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

I feel exactly the same, N&D, esp since WW always keeps her eyes closed during sex-like maybe she imagines I'm someone else?

I've had the same feeling towards sex now as you, in fact it's much rougher also.

After a short while the guilt passes-I'm a guy. Wish I had learned this in high school.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

Well the HB wore off and now it just depends on the day I guess. Two days ago it was like that. No emotion and not all that great physically. Hope that does not happen often. Relected and realize I was really struggling with "how could she be like that and have sex with him" that day so I guess it is a respect issue - not sure. So much BS to sort through. Heard a song by the Pretenders this monring - "I'll Stand by You" released in 1994 - when A resumed but first time while M.

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 6:03 PM, September 29th (Thursday)]


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1161 | Registered: Jul 2011
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

Wow, didn't know about this thread. First WAL's reply shocked me until I saw the date. WAL 2007 is way different than WAL 2011. We can see the healing.

I just got a PM reminding me that this thread existed about a week ago.

One of the things I think it's essential to remember when digging back through time like this is that the fact that things have changed doesn't invalidate the feelings from that time. Everything I wrote in 2007 was authentic and valid for those circumstances. One of the temptations as we heal is to minimize our own suffering and the hard things we went through because we don't feel the blunt emotional trauma of it any longer.

I would caution everyone to remember that healing is not and should not be the same thing as forgetting. It's important to honor the journey as much as the outcome.

(Note: not suggesting that this was your intent, nuance. Just a thought that spanged through my head. I think people need to understand that when I read back through this thread, I don't wince at my own comments. Part of me nods my head, remembering what those feelings were like. Those experiences and truths relevant in the context in which they were spoken will always be a part of me. They may not be useful now, in the present, but that doesn't mean they weren't as true then as my present reality today.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Mighty
Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

I get what you are saying WAL. I needed that second breaking of a false R to knock and send me down a different path.

But...Um.. WAL. I need you to write me a book. Every single time I run across your postings, they are part of my story. Seriously, looking back at these early ones, it is where I’m at now. I have been unattracted to my own wife now for months... longing and lusting for her is dead. Porn is sometimes used to ‘get me in the mood’ because she can’t. A month without sex is a cakewalk. And I just can’t keep my eyes off other women and wondering if that stranger would be a better choice. She IS treating her affairs as a bump in the road whereas for me it is a life altering event. She doesn’t want to talk about her A’s anymore and basically runs for cover if I bring it up... OK, she never ‘wanted’ to talk, but now she just sits silently giving me a pity look like “Oh, this again...” never defending herself. Even if I rage, she sits there, takes it, and nothing changes. She looks over my shoulder because I might be having a RA. We have that pattern where we have separate lives to a large degree.

I’m just lost at this point where to go.... This ‘past’ is just so much vapor still I can’t get a hold on. She is working on the marriage in ‘the now’, it isn’t that bad. But ‘the past’ and therefore a part of who she is, she has dubbed as ‘too private’ or whatever. She sounds like the woman you described at the beginning of this thread: Doing only half-assed attempts at what I’ve asked for, never being proactive (with some exceptions) at addressing the damage. It’s almost like she’s grabbed the cliff notes of “how to recover from infidelity” and skipped to the end chapters dealing with rebuilding a marriage... She ignored the ‘confession’, the ‘affair story’, the self-reflection of ‘why’, and the damage to the BS chapters. She hasn’t had to really look in my eyes and tell me everything and dealt with the full brunt of that pain she caused. She just did it in bits and pieces until she decided ‘this isn’t helping you’ and went silent. Ugh!!!


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

Mighty,

So, your post here in conjunction with the one you've got going in recon (about your fat wife) sparked some conversation in my house that provoked me to revisit some semi-painful realizations I had to accept about myself. I don't know if they apply to you, but I'll throw them out there for what they're worth.

All of this is predicated on what I think is a simple, unalterable truth: there is a vanishingly small window of opportunity for the WS to display heartfelt, authentic and consistent remorse. And when I say that, I measure it in fucking weeks after D-day. Certainly no more than three months.

There are things a BS *must* have from their WS in the way of remorse -- and I mean unprompted, uncoached, un-asked-for things that any thinking human being with the brain of a troglodyte should find immediately obvious -- in this window. Complete commitment to NC. Accepting total responsibility. Absolute resistance to the urge to blameshift, either on the BS or on the "state of the marriage". A willingness to talk, to reveal, to answer questions, to be transparent and supportive.

You know the list.

If those things don't happen, then the BS has to either leave or start making compromises. We have to turn the marriage into a protracted state of trench warfare where we mark out territories over which to do battle and we fight until we win. It becomes reconciliation through attrition and sheer stubborn refusal to lose.

(Truly, my sense is that BS's who get this in the early stages are much more likely and willing to start forgiving and apportioning themselves blame for the affair. They're the ones who say, "If I had been better at x, y, or z, this might not have happened. So I should improve in those areas." They have the freedom and compassion that allows them to be magnanimous in a way that is mutually healing, to accept part of the burden of responsibility solely because their WS did not try to foist it off on them from the start. Accepting blame becomes an act of love, mercy and charity. Not to say that this is better and without it's own set of self-destructive pitfalls for the BS, but it's certainly an improvement over the Trench Warfare Method of Reconciliation (tm), at least in the short term.)

I dare say that your wife has effectively missed that window, much like my wife did.

One of the things I realized at some point about two years in was that if my wife suddenly *started* giving me all of those things, I no longer had the capacity to appreciate them. I had written her off to such an extent that I would have seen them as more manipulation tactics or some desperate attempt to relieve her conscience. To be frank, she had been my enemy for so long, I couldn't countenance the idea that she was worth anything other than my enmity in return. We were living in our very own Cold War, and I was cool with that. It made her easier to dismiss in order to do my own thing, think my own thoughts, blah, blah. I didn't have to account for her at all, because she didn't matter to me in any practical way, except as an obstacle. I realized this right about the time it dawned on me that I was intentionally dredging up the affair in my own mind so I could be pissed off about stuff when I needed to be a focused, grouchy asshole about something. Or when I was just cranky in general, I could foist it off on my wife for being a cheating bitch instead of asking myself why I was cranky today.

Having a cheating wife becomes a pretty good coping mechanism for life stress after awhile. Here's a true story to illustrate: I work on a college campus. We've always got these bright-eyed kids running around trying to get you to give money to starving babies in Africa or to help build schools for underprivileged women in Asia. One day, a particularly pleasant do-gooder didn't just let me wave her off and asked me if it was just that I didn't care about the plight of whatever distressed population she was yammering on about.

And the first thing that popped into my mind to say to her was, "You know what? Fuck them. I've got my own problems with a stupid, cheating, bitch wife."

See, it wasn't that I was even particularly bitter at that point...I'd just realized all of the possible ways that having a cheating wife could be utilized to wall me off from things I didn't want to think about. It became a coping mechanism for avoiding other things.

And that, of course, isn't even the root of it. We'll get to that.

So, what a thread like this illustrates is that men in our position of Ongoing Entrenched Warfare stop liking who our wives are on the inside. Which is okay. I know lots of guys who don't like their wives, but seem to be generally happily married otherwise. Problematically, in my first post in this thread, I've also used the word "repulsive" to describe my wife's outside. Your wife, it appears, has gone to fat, which is close enough to repulsive in horse shoes and hand grenades, at least for the purpose of this discussion.

Which means that guys like us don't like who our wives are on the inside and we don't like who they are on the outside...which is pretty much the whole package. We can say objectively that we don't much like them at all, in any way, shape or form.

And yet...we've stayed. Having been handed a golden ticket to not only get out of the marriage free, but also a magic phrase ("my last wife cheated on me") which will practically guarantee access to the undergarments of women of a certain matronly disposition in every bar, church, supermarket and social gathering in America, we have -- against all logic to the contrary -- decided to stay with someone for whom the hatred is so visceral, it's turning our hair prematurely gray.

What, I came to ask myself, the fuck is going on here? Why am I staying with someone I can't stand physically, emotionally or intellectually, who has actively thwarted every step I've made to come to terms with what she's done to me?

(And, no, the answer is not "for my kids". That's a compelling reason, but not sufficient. Not in the 21st century. I will, however, accept the answer, "I'm staying to win, to punish her at every opportunity I get and ultimately, to make the rest of her life as miserable as she made mine." That answer is both acceptable and honorable in its own protracted-revenge way, and particularly effective, I think, with the sort of WW who is so shame-driven and self-disrespected that she'll accept a level of treatment somewhat less charitable than the way you or I might treat our dogs. Which is to say that I'm very fond of my dogs, but I don't really consider their opinion when I'm deciding what I want to do with myself this weekend. If you can dig it, it's sort of like all the benefits of being single, only with someone else to help with the cooking and laundry who also happens to know that it isn't their place to bother you with the details of their personal life.)

Nevertheless, this does leave the looming issue hanging over our heads of why we've chosen to stay with someone who, after a certain expiration date, couldn't show sufficient remorse or make sufficient amends even if they suddenly felt compelled to...because we couldn't accept it even if they did.

For me, that was ultimately the cusp of this mythical state of Acceptance we hear so much about. I realized that remorse was meaningless to me. What I'd really been hankering for during that first couple of years was the Time Machine. The only amends I would accept, having missed the window of opportunity, was for her to go back in time and make it so that it never happened. I couldn't accept anything short of that.

Except that it's patently impossible. And I know that. Which means I'm intentionally setting an impossible standard for her to meet...because I didn't want to face the fact that this was really my life. These things had really happened.

And I had stayed. Why? If I hated her so much, why did I stay? If I had to watch porn just to get it up enough to fuck her, why wasn't I out there fucking someone I actually wanted to fuck?

Because I was scared. I refused to accept where I was at, but wasn't going to change my circumstances because what I might get in return could be worse than regular access to my kids, my house, my full paycheck and easy sex. My wife was a backup plan for my competing fantasies of a life that I had lost on the one hand, and I life I was afraid to risk all on the chance of obtaining.

Talk about limbo. I was paralyzed by my own inability to take a chance, to let go of my own hurt...to accept that my life was what it was and I had to respond somehow. Instead, I chose not to respond and to just marinate in my own angries.

I'd love to tell you that it ultimately wasn't very satisfying and I snapped out of it...but the truth is that it was *immensely* satisfying. Everyone should have a nemesis upon whom they can heap scorn and blame for all of the bad things going on in their life. It's amazingly liberating and de-stressing to not have to sweat the small stuff because there's all of this BIG STUFF your spouse is responsible for.

The problem, of course, is that my wife refused to stay in that box as she got healthier and set about to be so doggedly, determinedly cute, supportive and generous of spirit that I couldn't ignore her anymore. And familiarity doesn't just breed contempt...it also breeds familiarity, and affection, and all of the good things that make marriage so icky-sticky-wonderful.

But somewhere along the way, I had to accept that I had chosen to accept the unacceptable. My wife had stabbed me in the back and I had chosen to stay not as an act of love and forgiveness, but because I was too risk-averse to start over. I had to learn to forgive myself for that. I had to learn to accept that I am by nature risk-averse, and I am completely the sort of guy who will stay with a cheating wife.

Not only stay with her, but be willing to open my heart and love her again. Which, to this day, half of my cro-magnon dude brain says makes me an immedicable pussy.

I would submit to you that this is where you're at right now. You're not really tormenting yourself with the questions: how could my wife do this to me? What does it say about how broken she is or how viable a partner she will be in the future?

But rather: what does it say about me that I am staying with someone who has done this to me?

And, if I answer that question honestly, can I live with the truth of who I am?

And that, my friend, is not a question your wife's remorse (or lack thereof) can answer for you.

The sad part is that I'm still not sure there is an answer -- no matter how it's answered -- that's ever really satisfying. You know that old Nietzsche saying about when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares into you? When we start the process of looking into ourselves for answers about who we really are, I would argue that if you ever walk away completely satisfied with what you have seen, you haven't looked hard enough.

Who we are is a terrible, terrifying mystery. I think the real courage is in trying to understand that, not in wishing we were some other way.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
nuance
Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, September 29th (Thursday)

Oh no, I think your feelings were valid. We should not minimize them and the WS should not minimize theirs also. But we can tell you're in a better place now.

N&D: don't feel guilty. Sex is the only good thing we get in the early months.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1229 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 12:02 AM, September 30th (Friday)

WAL- So I guess you went through a period of protracted trench warfare, like two years. Later your wife became healthy enough not to take the-whatever you want to call it- anymore and you eventually you began to love her again ? Or is it more like good friends who parent, share household chores and have sex ? Where are you at with your wife today ?

I am not trying to pick apart your narrative. As a somewhat recent BH, I am looking at potential outcomes and your story has piqued my interest. My wife is displaying similar behaviors and I guess I am interested how yours is today. It may help me come to terms with another approach to this crap.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 12:03 AM, September 30th (Friday)]


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, September 30th (Friday)

Absolutely a fair question, numb.

I love my wife. Even more, I respect my wife tremendously for the work she's done, the responsibility she's taken and the effort she's put in to working on her A stuff, the childhood sexual abuse and her bipolar disorder.

We had a major turning point right about the 3-3.5 year mark. By that time, I'd healed enough to finally be able to see what she was doing right and accept it for what it was rather than as a way of manipulating me into rugsweeping. Part of that was her ongoing effort, but the other part was the work I'd done to both heal myself, focus on getting what I wanted/needed out of my life and changing some of the expectations of our marital dynamic to allow me to be more independent than I had been previously.

Our marriage looks different today than it did five years ago...and even 7 years ago (i.e., before the A started), because we're different people. My wife will tell you that she's done a lifetime of growing up in that span. I would say that we've both learned a great deal about being supportive without being enmeshed. It's much more an adult relationship with adult expectations of one another.

(That's one of the advantages, I think, of the trench warfare route. You work on yourself and finding your own happiness as a free agent in the world rather than spending all of your energy on "the marriage".)

So I'd definitely consider us a success story, but with the caveat that, as the trench warfare model implies, I wasn't able to come around to the idea of reconciling until I'd extracted my pound of flesh...that is, until I felt like the amount of suffering we'd endured was, while different in nature, roughly equal. I don't think most WW's I've encountered would have put up with it. That was one of the things that earned my respect. My wife put her feet on the path of contrition and didn't waver. She let me be angry without trying to talk me out of it. She let me be who I needed to be without making false demands that I was obligated to be her husband first and foremost.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, September 30th (Friday)

WAL- thank you. I see you having a similar attitude to me in most. That is why I was so interested in your story. Thanks for expanding on it for me.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
Mighty
Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, September 30th (Friday)

Wow WAL, thank you!
Some things stood out as similar, others, not so much. I have done a ton of reflecting and soul searching over these last few years. I agree with that window. My WW missed that boat, so the ramification is ‘trench warfare’... It is a familiar battleground. Trenches were dug in ‘98 when she made the choice to put me into a sexless marriage. Forts, walls, and battle plans are the only real thing that’s changed since. She finally picked the nuclear option. I survived and adopted new tactics and defenses. I’m facing an opponent.

But rather: what does it say about me that I am staying with someone who has done this to me?

And, if I answer that question honestly, can I live with the truth of who I am?

And that, my friend, is not a question your wife's remorse (or lack thereof) can answer for you.


This is what I recognized and what I’ve been dealing with since Jan ‘10. It IS about me. This was when I had closure on the marriage. I had just given my family one last happy vacation before I filed and tore this apart. That was the last time my gut aligned with my brain for a consistent amount of time. And this was when my WW did something new; She started talking, showing signs of remorse, and utter panic and fear of what she had done. My gut flipped on me; Hope. I decided to let it play out.

The real crux of the issue that bothers me though is the ‘why do I stay?’ I am a rational person who seldom acts on my emotions. Emotions start the ball rolling down a path, but it’s the rational side that I use to re-assure myself my gut sent me down the right path. So, for the first real time in my life, I face a crossroads and have locked up because I can’t use rational thought to justify a emotional act. My brain doesn’t click like that without rebelling.

So it’s my rational side that looks for reason, asks questions, needs to find problems, and needs to see those problems addressed simply to validate my emotional decision (or change it).

Example: I bought a BMW M3. Poor gas mileage, not a good winter car, god awful expensive, really not the best choice out there. But driving it was like “oh wow!” So, I used my brain to justify this huge purchase. I found enough reason to comfort myself: The commute isn’t long (less gas), 4 doors so the family can fit, clients want me to look successful, I can race it, etc.

Feeding the rational part of my brain with that information is where she’s ultimately failed me. She has fed me the ‘cons’ side of the equation. And like you’ve mentioned (the window), too many times her ‘pro’ actions were a manipulation act, so those get added to ‘the other side’. So now, even the genuine ones are all too easily dismissed or questioned as probably ‘false’. I ruled out back in ‘10 that I needed to look at her to decide whether this was going to work or not and needed to look within.

Everything since, everything I’ve asked for, everything I see, I use to try and convince my rational side that my emotional side is correct (what I really want) or false (what I fear). And I haven’t; I’m fogging myself intentionally latching onto anything I can that might either swing my emotional decision down another path, or let my rational side swing to align with my emotions.

My rational side see’s a significantly damaged human being that is bound to create some new misery for me down the road; It see’s pain ahead (this path) or happiness (but it is conditional on a new path by her.... something she has refused). My emotions still say “oh wow!” around her....

Hence the issue. I have accepted I’m this person who needs ‘reasons’ to do what my emotions want. That’s me. And I’m stuck simply because I have been asked to face a life altering choice where I can’t get ‘reason’ to support my gut. To fully accept this marriage ‘as is’ means changing who I am on a very primal core level of how I think and make decisions. I’m not that guy.

We had a major turning point right about the 3-3.5 year mark. By that time, I'd healed enough to finally be able to see what she was doing right and accept it for what it was rather than as a way of manipulating me into rugsweeping. Part of that was her ongoing effort, but the other part was the work I'd done to both heal myself, focus on getting what I wanted/needed out of my life and changing some of the expectations of our marital dynamic to allow me to be more independent than I had been previously.

And I’m here to a degree. I honestly do see her efforts, big and small at how she deals with things ‘now’. It is a massive difference in how she deals with me.

Yet at that core is this acknowledgment by me that she has deeper core issues. So it’s not just about me. She too needs to look inside; I can’t do that for her. She has, but just as far as the surface. For the core stuff, I do not see change... I see the same old core issue; Avoidance. This doesn’t feed my rational side ‘pro’ items. She is avoiding really looking deep in that mirror. She still simply presents a facade of who she wants to be seen as... Not an integrated person or open book.

What sucks for me and part of the emotional ‘wow’ is that I know enough about her, have seen through those chinks in her armor, that if she’d stop trying to control or care about what others see and just be herself..... Man she’d be an awesome woman. It’s in her and always has been. She just needs to go down that path. I’d accept her, and even find beauty in those flaws. My emotional and rational agree on that. Unfortunately, that isn’t what I have. It is just a possibility and only she can make that turn. Drives me batty.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
asurvivor
Member
Member # 32368
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, September 30th (Friday)

Short and simple for a 5.5 year outer

1 year for me to come back down to earth
2 years for me not to have thoughts every 1-2-3 minutes about the affair which were debilitating
3 years for me not to have the sudden...you know...crazy thoughts 24 times a day. Had them, but not as much.
5 years before I stating to feel almost normal.
5 1/2 years before I stopped thinking about ripping other guys lungs out...thank God that appears gone.

Probably not what you wanted to hear but that's the way it's been


I've wiped the shit off. It can be wiped off you know.



Posts: 586 | Registered: Jun 2011
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, September 30th (Friday)

How about respect for WW, asurvivor-is that there yet?


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
asurvivor
Member
Member # 32368
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, September 30th (Friday)

I don't know if I lost it or gained it back or...I just don't know. I was so F-ed up for so long that it's truly hard for me to process that question. I know I wanted to throw her out a window and win her back at the same time and these conflicting thoughts went through my mind 24-7 for a very very long time. I honestly don't know if I lost total respect for her...I know I hated her and loved her at the same time and I bet a few of the guys out there know exactly what I'm talking about. I can tell you at this point we have found our way back to each other but the elephant is still there somewhere...maybe in the closet but still there. I know that probably doesn't help but it is my experience and we all are different.


I've wiped the shit off. It can be wiped off you know.



Posts: 586 | Registered: Jun 2011
lostcause111
Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, September 30th (Friday)

The sad fact of the matter this and a difference for those that R with a WW and those that do not.

Wals wife is rare. She knew how she fucked things up and conquered her disfunctional thinking.

I could right a story about my WW that every guy on SI would say "are you writing about my wife".

WLAS wife over came the microsoft and gained the courage to look in the mirror.

While I am happy to WAL he is lucky. Less than 10% of WW would ever do it.

When I was in MC and the whole two weeks my wife had remorse my counselor said women dont act like this accept this as a rare gift.

Two weeks later when my wife was fucked in the head again she said now this is the typical WW.

If you wife doesnt change and you have I am a big advocate if you cant leave due to kids is to carve your own life and in effect treat the marriage as one of convenience. Built in day care nothing more.

I had to adopt that stance after3 years of trying. Unlucky for me my wife is never changing and never will.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, September 30th (Friday)

I can respect her changes, but still cannot respect her as a person-Nov will be 4 yrs.

I doubt mine will ever be in the 10%.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, October 1st (Saturday)

Less than 10% of WW would ever do it.

These aren't very good odds. If it was an investment I wouldn't make it. What is the point in trying ? This isn't a good train of thought for me right now.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
Mighty
Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, October 3rd (Monday)

The sad fact of the matter this and a difference for those that R with a WW and those that do not.
Wals wife is rare. She knew how she fucked things up and conquered her disfunctional thinking

I’m trying to find the right words. There are some of us who don’t have a truly remorseful WW, but also have WW’s who’ve changed and no longer feel that ‘entitled, self-righteousness’ stuff they had before. I changed what I could with her help; The dynamics within our marriage. I know they do play a part in the security of the marriage. Because we are both working on it, the marriage is a lot better and healthier.

Yet I also know the dynamics of how she reacts to me have very little to do with the dynamics of how she is with others. The threat is there as well as the history. The only one who has any bit of control in that is her. And she’s not talking about that or what may have changed; That affects the ‘now’. Huge wedge in the relationship is the result.

But the marriage is better. I don’t get attitude anymore. She doesn’t treat me disrespectfully. It is vastly different. I’d even use the word ‘good’ in preference over ‘tolerable’. So, I have a good relationship without R. It is not however reconciled and it doesn’t feel ‘married’. To clarify that thought: It still feels like me versus her instead of us versus them. It’s even a surreal belief I have that ‘they’ would side with ‘me’ against ‘her’ and I’d even trust ‘them’ to have my back more than I’d trust ‘her’ to watch out for me.... Toxicity is still flowing through the marriage, yet, overall it is a pretty good relationship at this point....

So I’d say those of us without R, can still see varying degrees of change in our spouses... Maybe, like mine, there is enough change there that you can have a decent relationship, even a good one, but there is enough in there that it’s poisoned and keeps you at a distance. The frustrating part is you absolutely know it can be better, but that part you have zero control over changing. Your WW must step up and do that work to remove the poison drip she put in there. Mine isn’t. There is no R, just a very complex and confusing relationship.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, October 3rd (Monday)

I’m trying to find the right words. There are some of us who don’t have a truly remorseful WW, but also have WW’s who’ve changed and no longer feel that ‘entitled, self-righteousness’ stuff they had before.

Put me into this category. FWW now gets it that her perceptions were off. She is aware of her back and white thinking, that just because she thinks that I am mad, and that she is the reason I am mad, does not necessarily make it true. I no longer get blasted with stored-up resentment and anger. Now, she is more ashamed than angry. With her changes and mine, we have a better M, but we are not R, in fact I believe that we are headed to an eventual D.

I am not comfortable that her knowing what she now knows is enough to keep her boundaries in place long term. She is still depressed, more so now. She is ashamed of who she has discovered she is, the things she has done, and ironically these are all red flags to me for another OM at some point.

The biggest point though for me is that there is no intimate relationship. We are friends and roommates, but she is not comfortable being fully honest and open with me.

In many ways it would be easier if there were no changes and progress, then I would feel more validated in pursuing D.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:57 PM, October 3rd (Monday)]


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Mighty
Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, October 3rd (Monday)

In many ways it would be easier if there were no changes and progress, then I would feel more validated in pursuing D.

I get that... If she was still treating me as garbage, it'd be easy to cut my losses and D. I was there once.... and then she had to go and start being nice and screw that up.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
H sucks to be
New Member
Member # 33538
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, October 10th (Monday)

Is it just easier to live with what we know we have? I ‘m a little older and I know it would be very difficult to leave what I know (WW) and try to find a new life with someone else. We have too much history. Our lives are so intertwined (financially) that I think I would come out the loser on a D. At this point I’m pretty sure that I would take the lack of trust I have in people now into any other relationship I would get into. I know my WW will most likely never give me the full details of her affair. This has me so frustrated, all I have asked is give me a complete account of your affair and sincere apology and then it’s up to me to see if I can get past the betrayal .


BH 54
FWW 43
2 DD, 20 & 18
M - 22 years,
D-Day 12/2004 Found out about "friend", EA started 9/2004, affair ended 2/2005
D-Day 12/2010 Finally admitted to PA
My Birthday, Wedding Anniversary and Christmas damaged by her affair

Posts: 18 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: South Central, Indiana
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, October 11th (Tuesday)

H sucks to be-

I don't know either. I hope it can be better than what it is today. I like you would lose out horribly in a D.

I will tell you that the threat of a D made my WW uber motivated to do what I have asked. Most attorney's will do a consult for free.

I talked to a lawyer, had him draw up the papers, got approved for an apartment. I stood down temporarily, but my WW knows how serious I was.

Is it possible for you to take some of these steps ? Don't hide them, tell her. Make her understand just how wounded you are from this. Then what you are asking for comes as a condition for you staying ?

It may not work, but at least it forces your WW to show her true intentions. Also it made me feel better. Like I had taken back some control over my life. Strength in action.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
H sucks to be
New Member
Member # 33538
Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, October 11th (Tuesday)

Numb & Dumb, I hate what has happened to me and every other betrayed spouse that I have read about on this board. My main reason in staying is I have one daughter still living at home that I DO NOT want to ruin her final year of high school. If my wife and I were to split up it would negatively affect my daughter’s plans for collage. My wife is trying all be it at HER own pace.
I will tell you that the threat of a D made my WW uber motivated to do what I have asked.
I have been at this for six years. I tried IC we have been to two MC’s both were not very helpful attacking the affair. It was “you both need to communicate better”. Hell, I knew that without paying someone to tell me that.
It may not work, but at least it forces your WW to show her true intentions
To me she was having an exit affair and didn’t exit? I feel she wanted out but when it came time to leave she couldn’t. She had too much to lose (just didn’t think of it at the time of the affair). Now she is mega ashamed of what she did and just wants to bury it.
Also it made me feel better. Like I had taken back some control over my life. Strength in action.
Right now I would take knowing the whole truth and a sincere apology !!
Thank you for replying


BH 54
FWW 43
2 DD, 20 & 18
M - 22 years,
D-Day 12/2004 Found out about "friend", EA started 9/2004, affair ended 2/2005
D-Day 12/2010 Finally admitted to PA
My Birthday, Wedding Anniversary and Christmas damaged by her affair

Posts: 18 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: South Central, Indiana
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, October 11th (Tuesday)

ok what about telling your WW I need x, y and Z before DD goes off to college. Otherwise I am going to begin separation and investigate D.

Tell her I don't want to waste my golden years supporting a marriage that for all intensive purposes ended six years ago.

The communication thing is why I have refused MC right now. IC for each, maybe MC later. IC didn't help you ?


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
H sucks to be
New Member
Member # 33538
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, October 12th (Wednesday)

ok what about telling your WW I need x, y and Z before DD goes off to college. Otherwise I am going to begin separation and investigate D.

My FWW knows what I want… Her “getting it” has not set in yet. She didn’t start IC until this year so she is way behind the curve. I’m waiting for her to get sometime with her therapist before deciding to investigate separation or D.

Tell her I don't want to waste my golden years supporting a marriage that for all intensive purposes ended six years ago.

This is one point that I will have to have a nice talk with the wife about.

The communication thing is why I have refused MC right now. IC for each, maybe MC later. IC didn't help you ?

IC helped with the earlier anger that had for my FWW. I’m kind of back in the anger stage due to D-Day #3 was just back in Dec 2011 (found out it was a PA). It took a while but I found out that I was not the problem. I still have trouble fully coming to terms with this concept.

maybe MC later

If you can find a MC that has any experience with affairs that could help when your wife and you are ready. I wasted several sessions before asking the therapist if she had any experience with affairs. She had never heard of “More then friends”. She wanted to work on our communication skills. Hell it was my wife that was not communicating what was going on in her head.


BH 54
FWW 43
2 DD, 20 & 18
M - 22 years,
D-Day 12/2004 Found out about "friend", EA started 9/2004, affair ended 2/2005
D-Day 12/2010 Finally admitted to PA
My Birthday, Wedding Anniversary and Christmas damaged by her affair

Posts: 18 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: South Central, Indiana
wahoo8895
Member
Member # 29244
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, October 12th (Wednesday)

All of this is predicated on what I think is a simple, unalterable truth: there is a vanishingly small window of opportunity for the WS to display heartfelt, authentic and consistent remorse. And when I say that, I measure it in fucking weeks after D-day. Certainly no more than three months.

There are things a BS *must* have from their WS in the way of remorse -- and I mean unprompted, uncoached, un-asked-for things that any thinking human being with the brain of a troglodyte should find immediately obvious -- in this window. Complete commitment to NC. Accepting total responsibility. Absolute resistance to the urge to blameshift, either on the BS or on the "state of the marriage". A willingness to talk, to reveal, to answer questions, to be transparent and supportive.

You know the list.

If those things don't happen, then the BS has to either leave or start making compromises. We have to turn the marriage into a protracted state of trench warfare where we mark out territories over which to do battle and we fight until we win. It becomes reconciliation through attrition and sheer stubborn refusal to lose.

Holy fucking shit! This is so fucking spot on, I wish I had found this thread earlier. Describes my situation nearly to a tee, at 22 months out (will be 2 years in December). Yep, FWW missed that window by a long shot. She recognizes what she did was wrong, but rarely if ever shows any remorse. And since we're in a mostly sexless marriage now (maybe having sex every two weeks -- I still can't forget the fact that she and OM fucked each other on average every two days), I've noticed a drop in my sexual interest.

In answer to the original question, though, I never considered FWW a "dirty whore" and I don't think I ever stopped respecting her (or at least stopped respecting her more than I always did).


Me - BH (48)
Her - FWW (47)
Married 18 years
Together 20 years
3 kids
DDay #1 - 12/8/09 (EA)
DDay #2 - 12/18/09 (PA)
A ended - 2/21/10
R'ed

Posts: 554 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Metro DC
Mypoorboys
Member
Member # 33169
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, October 20th (Thursday)

Hello All,
I'm 9 months in, still in the house and she still acts like a whore, albeit, mostly on her own time.
No remorse, nothing but lies, continued behavior of a 16 yr old, (constant texting with boyfriend 24/7), on, off their respective jobs.
She filed back in May, I countered with the same irreconcilable differences, (should be Adultery, but in NJ means nothing).
For me, I don't ever see me respecting anything about this woman, (read my profile blog to get an idea who she is).
Doesn't matter to me why she has done this, either due to something in her or just pure selfishness, (she's always been treated like a princess, and I continued the process).
Now, at this point I'm fighting her and her Father over the buyout value for the property, (she wants to keep everything and limit my access to my young boys). Not!
This is going to trial in Jan. 2012 and ESP in Dec.
Her, 'Daddy Warbucks', Father and they are attempting to drain me financially/emotionally to give in. Not!
I don't deserve this, my boys certainly don't and I pray to GOD every night for myself, (cancer survivor), and my two young boys, (3 & 7).
I often ask myself how a person can be so removed from reality and so hurtful, so blind. Then I remember the, 'Fog', and forget all the side issues and refocus on my health and the boys.
I pray for everyone here who has been betrayed, cheated, lied to and hurt beyond what words can describe.
MPBs

Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New Brunswick, New Jersey
del311
Member
Member # 33840
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)

I used to be so proud of my wife and our relationship! I respected her so much! we got married at 20 years old and it was the coolest thing in the world for me when we were asked how long we've been married!?!? we both grew up with the same friends and everybody always commented how perfect we were together. now that same question has turned from such pride to the worst trigger!!! worst thing about it is outside i am happy and smiles...inside i wonder if i can ever look at her the way i used to be able to???

[This message edited by del311 at 5:24 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)]


BS(me)..39
WS(her)..38
OM(boy)..22(WTF)
Married..18y
2 children..18 & 5
DDay 3/3/11 "EA only"
DDay 3/7/11 "yup PA"
Grasping for R...fingers.cramped.losing.grip...

Posts: 96 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: san diego
3yrwait
Member
Member # 29907
Default  Posted: 11:22 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)

I don't recall seeing this thread. I wish I had seen it months ago.
At this point, although I still think about the causes of the A, I am resigned to the fact WW is never going to put forward the effort on her own to make things better, never answer questions without a week of resistance. So, 4.5 years after DDay, not much respect for WW.

I have learned I can put up a sustained fight to get my way. I wasn't able to do that before and during A; I have found it is easier to win these battles when you don't care about the other person's feelings. But why should I have to fight to get my way? Why hasn't she ever, on her own, come forward and said "I am sorry, I want to make things right." I have to fight to get that and I am tired of fighting.

So I stick around for my daughter, and to avoid the financial, familial and other burdens of a divorce. Also, I have no desire to get involved in another relationship. It is just easier to have a roommate that I can have sex with on occasion.

Damn, I wasn't depressed before I wrote this. Crap. Maybe it is time for another fight. lol

I will say she has more respect for me than before; or maybe it is fear. It isn't remorse.


Me: BH (early 40s)
Her: WW (early 40s)
Married 15 years
1 daughter, under 10
DDay July 2007

Posts: 469 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: 3yrwait
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, December 9th (Friday)

3yrs, I am exactly in the same sitch, except two kids.
We have 180'd each other so long now we just kinda live our own lives, go to work/take care of kids.

You aren't alone. It is easy for a guy, but it's not fulfilling at all, but like you I have no interest in another relationship-I've been burnt every single time.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
triangle
New Member
Member # 34522
Default  Posted: 12:47 AM, January 14th (Saturday)

I respect my wife for her intelligence and her beauty and respect what she once was. That is now gone.

I cannot respect nor be able to look at her the same way and hold her w/out the scar tissue getting in the way. This is especially so as she shows no signs of remorse or concern. If she did I think that would change for me in time.The sex thing is out for me. So that isnt going to work for me long term. Mind movies just haunt me and I dont know the details.

I want badly to respect her and have back those feelings but I don't see that changing as she has made clear in actions and words that she cannot R.


ME-BH 45
Her-WW 45
DD-7-4-11
EMA PA
Married 22 years
3 awesome teenagers
On the way to D, its over.

Posts: 4 | Registered: Jan 2012
Coma
Member
Member # 29353
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, January 16th (Monday)

Gentleman

I have been reading some of your comments. Wow! My first time here so i will need to get up to speed. Too many of us here that's for sure. The assumption here is that we gave our best but still got the wool pulled over our eyes.


BS-Me
WW-Her
"Love, look what you've done to me"

Posts: 465 | Registered: Aug 2010
spareparts
Member
Member # 33434
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, January 16th (Monday)

Hi Gents

Been sent to this thread by someone else, I've read a few of the posts and some things have resonated with me.

My situation is slightly more different in that my WW actually left me for the OM, and then came back on the same day. Not sure if anyone else has had that happen.

I think my lack of respect for her no longer comes from her A, I can just about manage to deal with that one. I suppose the hardest part for me is that when outted to the world, when the chips were down, my WW rented a house with OM and planned on moving in with him. She left me, took the kids over to her's for dinner with OM and then brought them back. So in effect she not only left me, but she left our 3 kids whilst she went off to live the happy life with OM. Ok she lastest less than 4 hours after bringing them home but still.

I suppose then its "why the hell did I let her back?". I couldn't tell you honestly. I think mainly because when she asked me to take her back, all I could think was "if she is here my kids won't be living with OM". Now I know everyone says don't just do it for the kids, but i feel if my wife had left me to be on her own then fair enough taking the kids would be ok. But having them live with him was what I feared most. Now though i not only have to deal with the loss of respect to my WW, but with loss of respect to myself. I've never been the strongest guy, I usually back down or talk my way out of most things, which is ironic given then fact that I'm a fairly large intimidating guy! So now I'm finding it hard to also not let my WW walk all over me again!

It seems that most of you here have far more respect for youselves than I do at the moment! Hopefully I'll get there with you.

Oh WW does seem to be showing some remorse, not huge amounts but far more than i have ever seen from her before. NC not in effect due to them working together still, am waiting for the day when they are forced apart which i'm hoping is in the next month or so.

Spareparts


Posts: 515 | Registered: Sep 2011
reallyscrewedup7
Member
Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, January 16th (Monday)

Interesting thread, no doubt.

For me, it has been a multiple-part process. Filing for D, getting my own place, and living my own life showed her that I wasn't the doormat she had trained for so many years. And that is not just my words - she admitted to me that she never thought I would leave her. Not that she thought I was weak or less than her (quite the opposite it turned out), but that I was so "duty honor country" that I would stick it out with her regardless.

Next, I took as much financial risk out of staying with fWW as possible because frankly, I cannot trust her judgement. She is a good mother and right now, a very loving, caring and healing wife. But she was so selfish and entitled for so long (way before the A), I will not be fooled that months of healing can rewire neural pathways that have been established over 40 years.

If I was going to get sleep at night, I needed by HCPOA to be my sister, the trustee of my estate to be my lawyer, etc. It is a cause of friction between us, but my need to be safe trumps her need to have me respect her financial/end-of-life decision process.

The final part has been my healing. I no longer feel obligated to fix every bad thing in her life. That has been huge. She is a big girl and if the degradation of her looks makes her want to fuck other guys, there is nothing I can do about it. It is all her. Thankfully, she has has admitted her faults and even though she really hated the concept of IC, she has been diligent in her work and has found a great counselor.

So, I guess my level of respect for my fww as a person might actually be higher than before the A. But the reality is that I will probably never respect her decision making process in a potential crisis, because it would be too easy for her to fall back into her selfishness. So I have taken every step I can to limit my exposure. Sort of like never putting a shot of Johnnie Walker Blue in front of an alcoholic.

[This message edited by reallyscrewedup7 at 7:06 PM, May 1st (Tuesday)]


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 906 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
certman
Member
Member # 11446
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, February 13th (Monday)

I only post occasionally now. But for some reason my recent posts had this topic which I posted five years ago. I looked up the post and saw all the familiar names that help me thru the bad times. Now six years later I finally feel a little better, a little light at the end of a long horrible tunnel. But looking back on it all I sometimes feel that it was not worth it. I would have been better pulling the plug on the marriage and moving on. I feel that way except when I see how well my daughters have done. Then I realize that staying for the kids sake was worth it.

Thanks to all those folks who posted to my replies six years ago.


Posts: 1562 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: NYC
JMOARCAO
New Member
Member # 36513
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, August 16th (Thursday)

I used to be so proud of my wife and our relationship! I respected her so much! we got married at 20 years old and it was the coolest thing in the world for me when we were asked how long we've been married!?!? we both grew up with the same friends and everybody always commented how perfect we were together. now that same question has turned from such pride to the worst trigger!!! worst thing about it is outside i am happy and smiles...inside i wonder if i can ever look at her the way i used to be able to???

It was almost as if I typed this myself. I have faith that the specialness of our marriage and relationship will return someday.


Me: BH32
WW 33
Married 9 years. Together 17 years
2 wonderful daughters
D-Day 2-8-2012 PA with a personal trainer at the gym. A-hole doesn't even have a great body.
Status: Trying to keep it together.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: MA
2cooldaughters
Member
Member # 19408
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, August 16th (Thursday)

Don't know why I was just reading through this thread but I was.

I'm about 4 years and 4 months from DDay. Since that time I have not gained back any significant level of respect for her as a person, and particularly little as a spouse. Oddly, this doesn't seem to have any impact on her at all. She's cheerful at times, seems very pleasant even, and contented. She complains about work, wants to plan vacations, tells a funny story or even asked my opinions on politics or sports.

It's a horrible relationship. It's like we are pretending everything is cool, yet we are at opposite ends of the house. I'm jealous of those men who say, and mean, that they are proud of their wife or who celebrate their success in life and attribute it to the love and support of their good woman. I can't do that, ever, again. And that frustrates me because I only agreed to R when my wife begged and pleaded for me to give her the chance to prove her love and commitment. I have, and she didn't.


Posts: 68 | Registered: May 2008
Its Better Now?
Member
Member # 34802
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, August 16th (Thursday)

From your original post:
But looking back on it all I sometimes feel that it was not worth it. I would have been better pulling the plug on the marriage and moving on
From today's post:
It's a horrible relationship. It's like we are pretending everything is cool....
You have written exactly what I'm feeling right now and am afraid I will be feeling when I hit the 6.5 year mark.
I need to face some hard cold truth here. There is no way I'm going to be any different from you when I get to that point.
JMOARCAO:
I have faith that the specialness of our marriage and relationship will return someday.
What a blessed man you truly are to have such faith/hope. I can find neither anywhere in my heart or mind.


OK; It's Brass Tacks Time

Posts: 124 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Lost and Wondering
whatashame90
Member
Member # 34772
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, August 17th (Friday)

I feel so the same way, although only 7 months out from DDay # 3.

I had such a wonderful feeling about my WW, our life together, myself, etc. So much confidence, respect, adoration, feelings of trulybeing madly in love with the mother of my three sons. Now? Nothingness. The only true feeling is pain and the burning desire to D her once and for all and leave her with herself.

I am holding on out the fear of being a part time father and losing half my money and my home and living like a college kid in some shitty apartment at 40 years old.

Is she acting better? Absolutely now that she hasn't drank in 5 months and is on a cocktail of bipolar medications, but it just doesn't fucking matter anymore. She destroyed everything I had for her. Everything.

A full blown EA and PA 3 years ago followed by a FR, than a ONS blowjob with a stranger in a bar parking lot, and years of sending explict photos of herself to ex boyfriends through her phone everytime she drank and i wasn't present.

I find her pathetic. I find her repulsive at times. At first I kept fucking her (that is all it has been since DDay) to meet my male needs, but now I don't even want to do that.

I could care less about her brokeness, her mental illness, her Daddy issues or need for male attention to feel validated. I could care the fuck less. After 8 years and nothing but pure agony, my love dies more and more everyday I think about all she's done, and I regret allowing her the chance to prove anything to me after she was caught yet again and then diagnosed as BP2, ADHS and alcoholic. Not my problem. She destoyed my soul, my faith, my love, my respect, my self esteem, our family, everything..for "vali-fucking-dation". Go suck another stranger's dick and swallow for him you twat and lemme know how validating it is for you to feel like the fucking whore you love to be.

Meds to be "normal"? Gimme a break. Meds are preventing you from being what you really are; a lying, cheating, worthless, lost, broken piece of cheating shit.

How's that for regaining trust and respect?


ME-BH (40)
HER-WW (30)
Married 5 years, together 8 years
3 Kids, all boys, 6, 3 and 1.
DDay #1 - 4/09 EA and PA with coworker
DDay #2 - 6/10 (Nude pics to 2 men)
DDay #3 2/12 gave a stranger a blowjob in a parking lot
DDay #4 3/12 nude pics to OM1

Posts: 87 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: michigan
keptmyword
Member
Member # 35526
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, August 27th (Monday)

I will never gain any respect for her ever again. About seven months out from D-day and we are separated and I will be pursuing divorce. I will be civil and tolerate her presence - but always in a guarded sense. By guarded I mean that I will always be aware of her behavior and influence of our two young children.

She has given minimal acknowledgement that what she did was wrong (Year long emotional and physical affair with a friends neighbor). She has given occasional hints of some possibility of reconciliation but I want nothing to do with her. She has become broken, dysfunctional, corrupt, and quite comfortable with total dishonesty. She has become a toxic entity surrounded by her equally toxic and corrupt "friends" from which she gets validation for all her shitty decisions and behavior. Their collective mantra is being irresponsible, uncommitted, and full of excuses.

But, she is the mother of my two children and therefore I am forced to have a relationship with her in that sense. As I stated, I will be civil and tolerant but there will never be any respect. There can never be respect for someone who was doing a wrong to someone that they were fully aware they would never, ever, want done to themself. She created lies and deceptions that relied on the unquestioned trust I had in her and played on the hopes of mine and our children of ever having a happy, unified family. She knowingly and willfully killed that for the empty bullshitting of a POS that preys on damaged women and has not one bit of obligation towards her or her two children. Respecting her would mean, to a degree, compromising my values with her and I simply will not do that. She has demonstrated clearly what her values are - and they are the values of an immoral lying shitbag. She clings to denial, defensiveness, and deluding herself. She lives a lie and at some point it will begin to affect her relationship with our two children.

I believe in, and have lived an authentic life and that means living honestly and true to my myself, my values, and my word. I will continue to do so and that means respecting what earns and deserves respect. Nothing else.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 7:01 PM, August 27th (Monday)]


I Divorced Her.

Posts: 364 | Registered: May 2012
IMTryingHard
New Member
Member # 33896
Default  Posted: 2:40 PM, October 2nd (Tuesday)

Still incremental gains more then a year later...

Never felt she was a whore (being paid for sex act)...although there was activity at work during work hours so technically??...

But certainly struggled with feelings that she was a slut...behaved like one...and got treated like one...

14 mths out... incremental gains daily...but dunno how long until that battery is fully recharged....


--------------------
Me: BS 40s
Her: FWW Close-to-40s EA/PA 9 mths
Kids: 2 under 10
Married: 14+yrs together longer
DD:Aug 2, 2011
Status: R

Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: East
phoenix54
Member
Member # 36574
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, October 8th (Monday)

I don't know. When I think about her giving a BJ to her AP in his truck, it absolutely disgusts me. Sometimes, she still feels special to me. Other times, not so much.


BH: 45 (me)
WW: 43
11 month PA/EA
4 children
D-day: 5/4/12
Married: 17 years
Trying to reconcile

Posts: 436 | Registered: Aug 2012
VD2012
Member
Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, October 8th (Monday)

That's how I feel phoenix, even about the same thing.

My wife only had two sexual encounters with her AP. First was sex, that for all intents and purposes could be constituted as sexual assault. And regardless, even if it was a full blown "take me now" fuckfest I could somehow deal with that.

It's her paying money to take a cab to meet him early one morning for the express purpose of giving him a blow job in the back of his van that fucking kills me. It's what destroyed absolutely all of my respect for her. And why do it? "Because I wanted him to like me and didn't want to upset him". It would be one thing if she actually wanted to, but she didn't. That just makes it worse. Especially knowing after, and believing, the guy meant nothing to her and was no one special.

You've only ever been with me, yet seemingly have no problem doing that for him in the back of his van (where his kids sit, come on!) on your knees like a common slut? Just to make some 20 year older guy who is using you and you barely know like you, at the expense of your life, family and own dignity? You degrade yourself and throw everything away to make a guy you barely see like you? Hard to find any respect for that.

I'm proud of how far she's come, but I don't know if I ever can get passed that mentally enough to respect her again. At least like I did. I even acknowledge she was fucked in the head, not thinking clearly and was pretty much having a mental breakdown. Yet still, the moment the thought comes to mind I'm disgusted by it no matter how much I lay out the facts. Its easy enough to be logical and think one thing, a lot more difficult to feel that way. Time will tell. I want to at least, just not sure if I can.


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
wreck3d
Member
Member # 36536
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, October 9th (Tuesday)

Well crap, maybe I shouldn't have checked out this thread. Posts of BHs 4,5,6 years out still not able to respect WW. Just makes me wonder if that'll be me if I stay with WW.

I'm still in the early stages, but I really connect with 2cooldaughters statement of:

I'm jealous of those men who say, and mean, that they are proud of their wife or who celebrate their success in life and attribute it to the love and support of their good woman.

I haven't been able to say that about my WW for many years and even though she's trying now, I can't see how I'll ever accept it or re-learn how to respect her. It sucks so bad to remember there was a time long ago where it felt so damn good to be proud of her.


BS(me)36
WW 34
3 DDs..11,10,8
M: July 1998
D-Day: August 9,2012

Posts: 75 | Registered: Aug 2012
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, October 9th (Tuesday)

Five years Nov 23, and I still feel the same way.

I'm jealous of those men who say, and mean, that they are proud of their wife or who celebrate their success in life and attribute it to the love and support of their good woman.

I am proud she quit drinking. No more driving drunk w/my kids. Woo-hoo!


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
lostjem
New Member
Member # 29260
Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, October 10th (Wednesday)

I'm jealous of those men who say, and mean, that they are proud of their wife or who celebrate their success in life and attribute it to the love and support of their good woman.

I often tell my WW that she ruined 3 speeches I have yet to give but have always planned and thought of: 1. My daughter and son's wedding speech
2. My retirement speech
3. The speech I wanted read at my funeral.


Posts: 39 | Registered: Aug 2010
lm2024
Member
Member # 34759
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, October 12th (Friday)

Two and a half years out from D-Day. Have regained some respect back for fWW, but it will never be what it was. I was so damn proud of her once. She fell off that pedestal with her affair.

Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Heartland
kchip
Member
Member # 36365
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, October 13th (Saturday)

At least you guys got a shot.

My STBXW = Hampton Inn Whore.

Her new name.


Me: BH (42)
2 boys, age 10/7
D Day: July 15, 2012
Status: DIVORCING
You know that movie, Sleeping With the Enemy? Well I am Julia Roberts in that one......sighhhh
"When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change"

Posts: 471 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: FL
spincycle
Member
Member # 5853
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, October 14th (Sunday)

I'm 8 years in. I wish I could see her for something better, but it went on so long, so many marriages she destroyed, my 2 babies being put into this. I don't think I'll ever be able to see her as anything more that what she is. A selfish tramp.


Me, 37 BH
WS, 32, and 6 (now 10) (now 12)separate affairs
DS 5, and DD 2.
D-DAY 11-18-04
Divorced 2-2012, if only I had listen to you all in 04, if only I had run away.

Posts: 1510 | Registered: Nov 2004 | From: Houston
somanyyears
Member
Member # 26970
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, October 14th (Sunday)


..

..just read the last 2 pages.. i'm 3.5 years out from D-Day#2, or is it 3???

..brought up a lot of past emotions

..i can respect her for many things, but 'telling the truth' ain't one of them!

..40 years, i lived in a total lie, about her and my bfOM.. my whole adult life has been a mirage.

..'friend' and 'respect' are 2 words i don't use much lately.

..they both gave me ZERO respect for nearly 20 years..

..i know she would like mine now!

..we're still working on it.

so, didn't she know she was throwing all of hers away each and every time she put his cock in her mouth???

..what the fuck was she thinkin' ????

smy


trust no other human- love only your pets
She isn't and never was who I thought..I can't believe who I married and what she did to us.
Me 67
Her 63
Married 42 yrs (together 47)
18 yr LTA with bf


Posts: 4134 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: the sad state of affairs
lostcause111
Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, October 15th (Monday)

Saw some new posts on this thread and in sad reality when I posted way back when I still have no respect for wife.

I am happy though not because of my marriage more like inspite of it.

I saved the kids a boatload of misery staying and being subjected to a borderline woman in my wife.

respect ... gone. She does not respect me enough and never did anything to earn me back.

I hate to say it but at this point my respect is so low for wife I simply view her as an egg donor for my children and nothing more.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
2cooldaughters
Member
Member # 19408
Default  Posted: 3:59 PM, October 15th (Monday)

You know, when I first discovered FWW's affair, my kids were 7 and 11 years old. Kids, little kids. Too little to grasp what was going on. At the time I just simply could not leave them.

They are turning 13 and 16 in the next weeks, and I'm so proud. A lot has changed in their lives since 2008. Celebrated soccer and volleyball athletes, youngest just inducted into the Junior Beta Club, oldest competing for top class academic honors and soon getting her first car. They are delightful and lovely young women now. So I'm glad I stayed around to see them every day and every night. They wouldn't be where they are without me in their lives, and I know that.

As far as their mother and I are concerned, there's just not much to say. She says she isn't happy with the way things are, wants us to be close, wants to be normal, and wants to forget what she did. She wants me to forget it ever happened, and love her like I used to.

I can't respect that.


Posts: 68 | Registered: May 2008
SecondHelping
Member
Member # 36796
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday)

I don't know. When I think about her giving a BJ to her AP in his truck, it absolutely disgusts me. Sometimes, she still feels special to me. Other times, not so much.

What he said ^^^


D-Day 1: Feb 1990
D-Day 2: 3 Sep 2012 (3 month EA/3 week PA)
BS 49, fWW 43 (Amibroken)
OP- Police Chief (Age 37)
M 25 Yrs, 3 Kids (17, 14, 11)
I initated the relationship at the Railway Tavern, she tried to end it at Scrap Tavern

Posts: 507 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Delmarva
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 6:37 PM, May 3rd (Friday)

I'm two months and 13 days out from d-day. The dirty whore thoughts came the second day and died that same evening.

Two months out I'm disappointed at my WW's lack of judgment. We had a good life. She says so and is trying to stay.

If you have a good thing -- a person that you treasure -- why risk losing it over something do dumb?

Why inflict years -- maybe a lifetime of pain on someone who's so devoted to you.

I, too, hope I'll stop thinking about those things and be able to one day look at her and feel proud again.

I did the other day, it lasted a split second. I think there's hope.

After only two months, I look at her with disappointment. So much disappointment. More than any other feeling.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, May 4th (Saturday)

Two months out I'm disappointed at my WW's lack of judgment. We had a good life. She says so and is trying to stay.

Exactly. I'm also outraged, because during the A-ish time period, as well as a while before that, my wife basically threw me under the bus in terms of my quality as a husband to everyone we knew. I mean, I've spent nearly my entire marriage covering for my wife's drinking, never complaining about HER annoying habits or whatever to other people, and basically trying to maintain a good image of her in other's minds....while she did nearly the opposite. Shit, she even had me convinced that I was a terrible husband until after the A, when I started to really, really process everything....and the anger is damn-near overwhelming sometimes.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, May 5th (Sunday)

I really don't think the disasppointment will ever go away. I think I feel it getting stronger.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, May 5th (Sunday)

If you have a good thing -- a person that you treasure -- why risk losing it over something do dumb?

Why inflict years -- maybe a lifetime of pain on someone who's so devoted to you.

What he said.

I'm also outraged, because during the A-ish time period, as well as a while before that, my wife basically threw me under the bus in terms of my quality as a husband to everyone we knew.

What he said, too.


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, May 5th (Sunday)

77 days from D Day, and today I looked at my beautiful wife of 17 years and thought that, for a period of about 10 months, she gave those lips, her tongue, her breasts and her vagina to a man that she wasn't married to and who never in his life has paid a single bill of hers. A man who hasn't fathered even one of her four children. A man who didn't apologize and didn't beg her to be with him when she told him that I found out about the affair, was distraught and irate, and would probably divorce her over it. He didn't give a shit and didn't fight for her, because what he wanted was over - no-strings-attached sex with a woman for whom he had no responsibility. He hasn't tried to contact her since.

17 years of marriage betrayed for nothing more than a quick "fix" to whatever it is that is broken inside of her.

Her tears flow like a river (where were her tears for me, when I was being betrayed over and over again?). She cries and begs me for reconciliation. We're in MC, she's in IC, and I guess you could say we're trying to R.

Respect for her? Not even close. Not any time soon, if ever.

Her choice. Sadly.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:40 PM, May 5th (Sunday)]


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Ixion
New Member
Member # 39183
Default  Posted: 2:34 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

This is something that I struggle with daily. After D-day, the person that I thought was my wife and the situation that I thought was my marriage, were gone. I stopped using my usual 'pet name' for my wife, and now use a different one, in an attempt to make myself realise that she is not the person that I married.

She appears to be making an effort now (although thats mostly just to move on, and not accept the past) and has cut off links with 'him'. But, I cant ignore or change the past, and I cant just forget what she did. At this point, I really cant imagine ever getting to a point where I respect or trust her again, and that scares me more than anything else that I have been through.


Posts: 24 | Registered: May 2013
NeverThe Same
New Member
Member # 34754
Default  Posted: 6:34 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I post very rarely but this thread really hits home right now. I am about 18 months post D-day and I know that I have not regained any respect for my WW even though she has worked very hard on our R.
The fact was driven home this past weekend when we ran into friends of my sister who relayed how my sister always brags about her brother (me) and his wonderful, beautiful wife, gorgeous kids and "perfect" life. They then went on to say how much they agree with her telling me what a lucky man I am.
So at a moment when I should be beaming with pride and gratitude, I was instead cringing through a forced Thank You and a weak smile all the while burning inside with as much embarrassment and humiliation as I did on D-Day.
Scary to think that this might always be the way I feel no matter what she does to try to make things better. Just plain sucks.

Posts: 11 | Registered: Feb 2012
MoreWould
Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

I'm way out on the timeline, over 30 years from FWW's A.

I love and respect her greatly now. She wasn't very remorseful, or transparent, or a lot of things WWs are supposed to be to help their BH heal, and it took me a lot longer to get here than it should have.

What she did do was end the A and pour her energy into more productive things. Great career, good mom, and at 61, looks better than half the 40 year-old's out there.

But, do I trust her? Yeah, about 90%. I will never, ever trust anybody or anything 100% ever again. Not even myself.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 357 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
3Xthefool
Member
Member # 40113
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

I just stumbled on this thread today. looks like its been a while since the last post was written but thought I would add my two cents worth.

Everyone here spells it out very bluntly.

I have to admit that I am in the same place as you Sal1995. WW threw any respect from me out the window when she decided to disrespect me by f***ing several other men during our marriage.

Life sucks and blows.......unfortunately, so does my two-timing ho of a wife.


Posts: 59 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: New York City
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

Yeah, this thread doesn''''t get a ton of action. More or less, the same ground gets covered in the Betrayed Men thread, so this only gets posted on from time to time. That being sad, there is some really, really good and insightful stuff on this thread. Plus, it''''s fairly short, so you can navigate through the entire thing pretty quickly.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 8:43 AM, September 5th, 2013 (Thursday)]


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
MutedMan
New Member
Member # 36669
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

Perhaps if my WW admitted she had a shortcoming that required introspection...I.E. her desire to cheat on me for years while I worked full time, watched babies and tended to her childish needs.
Then I might begin to regain respect for her.
As it sits now- I'll never have respect for her-
This will eventually be understood by my children, and this pains me greatly.
She actually had the balls to tell me recently that her
LTA has/had no bearing on our children.

I asked her if our divorce will have a bearing on the children...cricket, cricket...
Nothing to say to that. When I burst her Bullshiite bubble she either blows up or shuts down.
I used to get upset about both. Now I prefer she shuts down (and goes away).


Me=BS 42
Her=WW 37
DDAY=Feb. 2012
5yr long term affair
2 little kids
Forward does not necessarily mean together.

Posts: 48 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Mutedman
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Respect seems to be where I am stuck.

At almost 4 years out I feel that I have healed my hurts, accept that what happened, happened, and we have been working on R-ing the M for the last year or so. FWW has addressed all of her A-related crap, and is working on her issues. I like her, and we have fun together.

My problem is I do not feel much respect for her. I used to be proud to be M'd to her, and proud of her accomplishments. Now; not so much. The endearing little things of her personality have become neediness or incompetency. She has had trouble with employment since dday, and unemployed for the last 10 months. She no longer looks beautiful, some is her aging, some is stress and depression since dday, some I think is me. While she is much better than before and immediately after dday, she strikes me as more a victim than in control of her life. When I think about talking about her I found myself thinking of excuses for her rather than bragging on her.

I am thinking the secret to my respect for her is based on me, not her changing or being different, so where do I start?


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ontheslope
Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, September 27th (Friday)

My problem is I do not feel much respect for her. I used to be proud to be M'd to her, and proud of her accomplishments. Now; not so much. The endearing little things of her personality have become neediness or incompetency.

This is exactly where I'm stuck as well. My W and I can spend time together, we get along, we don't really fight, we still have sex (and actually - sex has been more exciting lately then it has been in years), but I have a hard time respecting her. I almost look down at her, in a way. I used to be proud to have her as my W, I use to share in her accomplishments. Now she just comes across as a shallow, needy person and I really can't find many things about her that are endearing. She still very attractive, but I think my loss of respect for her has left me unable to fully appreciate her physical beauty because she is missing that internal beauty. She's just not a beautiful person to me anymore.

It's hard to find the person who broke your heart and opened their legs for another man beautiful, no matter how good their physical looks.


Me: BH, 36
Her: WW, 37
Two girls 8 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 269 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I am thinking the secret to my respect for her is based on me, not her changing or being different, so where do I start?

I struggle with this constantly. Acceptance may allow you the personal foundation to rebuild your respect. However, respect is earned through actions. Does she deserve your respect? For me the sum of her actions most often falls short. A common pattern in our M is she makes small steps towards winning my respect. But if I step back, look around and take the blinders off, I am reminded we are damaged goods and always will be. Can I accept this condition? The whole package of family, kids, lifestyle and convenience outweighs the benefits of D. For now. But as I get older perhaps I will learn to accept this severely compromised situation. Things could be a hellava lot worse but far from the safe, satisfying and nurturing M one dreams of. I dream of waiting till the kids are gone and then rebooting (her to the curb) and me to a new life. This fantasy may just be what I tell myself to avoid feeling like a sucker for staying in the M. But today is when we live and life is fleeting.
Hang in there brother.

[This message edited by Alex1 at 10:03 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
fireguy87
Member
Member # 36992
Default  Posted: 2:10 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

We are around the 20 year out mark. It's hard to say when respect for my W returned.

I think over the years I found new things to respect her and be proud of her for. Acceptance is a big thing.

There are things that happen in life that don't turn out the way we expect or dream of. We adapt to those instances to make them the best we can for us. I believe that's what happened in our situation. I adapted to figure out how to move on and grow. Unfortunately, yes, I did still wind up with some triggers that I was unable to control, but I am learning to deal with those as well in the best possible way for me.

Hope this makes sense some how.

[This message edited by fireguy87 at 2:11 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Me - FBH
Happened many years ago
Reconciled

Posts: 51 | Registered: Sep 2012
doubleboggy
Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 12:22 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Things could be a hellava lot worse but far from the safe, satisfying and nurturing M one dreams of.

For me this has a lot to do with it. If I could get back to (or at least closer to) the M of my dreams or the one I thought we had, respect would be easier to reestablish.


D Day: 3/31/13

Posts: 109 | Registered: Sep 2013
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

great post alex1. Lots to think about.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Montreal
Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I struggle with this constantly. Acceptance may allow you the personal foundation to rebuild your respect. However, respect is earned through actions. Does she deserve your respect? For me the sum of her actions most often falls short. A common pattern in our M is she makes small steps towards winning my respect. But if I step back, look around and take the blinders off, I am reminded we are damaged goods and always will be. Can I accept this condition? The whole package of family, kids, lifestyle and convenience outweighs the benefits of D. For now. But as I get older perhaps I will learn to accept this severely compromised situation. Things could be a hellava lot worse but far from the safe, satisfying and nurturing M one dreams of. I dream of waiting till the kids are gone and then rebooting (her to the curb) and me to a new life. This fantasy may just be what I tell myself to avoid feeling like a sucker for staying in the M. But today is when we live and life is fleeting.
Hang in there brother.

Geez, Alex, I could have written that. But I'm only three months out.

So is that it? Is this our life now? "Easier" because of the kids, the lifestyle, the house and so on? Do we just muddle through, never really happy? I tell my wife all the time that I think of that old Ann Landers question, where she would ask the people who wrote to her "will you be happier with them, or without them?" Right now my answer seems to be "neither." I'm sad that like you said I'm not going to have that marriage I thought I had, or thought I deserved. Sad that if I decide to end the marriage I lose all the other things that go with it. Daily access to the kids, the big house with the nice backyard, the lifestyle I've worked hard to provide for everyone, including myself. Is that a fair trade-off? Nice lifestyle, but a wife that you can't really respect because she thought that solving her problems involved screwing other guys? You dream of kicking her to the curb once the kids are gone… my youngest is four. Do I wait a decade and a half until I take my shot at true happiness again? Or do I owe it to her, and her two brothers, to at the very least try with my wife? Fake it until I maybe make it? What if the wife decides she "deserves" better than somebody who can't forgive and/or respect her and SHE kicks me to the curb? How humiliating would that be??

Fuck.

[This message edited by Montreal at 9:02 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


DDay: July 6, 2013
Trying.

Posts: 98 | Registered: Sep 2013
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

yeah, montreal you are finding out what many of us also have realized. Now you can be the bad guy who won't forgive and D, or you can muddle thru and see your kids grow up.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

do I owe it to her, and her two brothers, to at the very least try with my wife? Fake it until I maybe make it? What if the wife decides she "deserves" better than somebody who can't forgive and/or respect her and SHE kicks me to the curb? How humiliating would that be??

In the bigger picture of raising your kids and maintaining a lifestyle humiliation needs to be kept in check. Sure, I feel deeply humiliated by this whole mess -and so does my wife.

In the heat of this crap it's easy to confuse self respect with pride.

There is no humiliation in providing for and raising your kids and no humiliation in trying to forgive and turn the other cheek. Ego and pride have a different opinion on this.
Could they, would they cheat us on us again? Maybe, but even if we highly doubted it we are destined to life of keeping our guard up. As GWB famously said "fool me once, shame on...you... you fool -you can't get fooled again".()

As our 4 year antiversary approaches I find myself freezing her out, being distant and indifferent even though she is being kind and considerate. I am creating the exact circumstances that allowed her to stray to begin with. What's up with that?
I believe she chose the whole package of our life over the OM. I believe that if it were exclusively between the OM and I she would have made a different choice. She says to the contrary but I stopped believing her a long time ago.
At times life is pretty great for us...
And around it goes... ()

[This message edited by Alex1 at 1:44 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
DWBH
Member
Member # 35512
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Wow, some really good stuff here, Alex1... much of what you wrote really resonate with me.


Me: BH, 43
Her: FWW, 42 (ThornyRose)
M: 17 years, together 20
2 Daughters: 15 and 13
D Day: 9/25/2011; Lies & TT to 5/4/2012
~Double betrayal; caught them in the act~

Posts: 729 | Registered: May 2012 | From: WI
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Thank you for the insights Alex.

My issue used to be how infrequently we had sex. Now I find it worrisome that I think I am ok if we don't have sex anymore. They oft quoted timeline is 2 - 5 years and I am at 4. Maybe this year will be the miracle.


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

My issue used to be how infrequently we had sex. Now I find it worrisome that I think I am ok if we don't have sex anymore. They oft quoted timeline is 2 - 5 years and I am at 4. Maybe this year will be the miracle.

You read my mind on this one verbatim Ats, as usual.
While I am still very attracted to my W the whole procedure of sex has become a chore and loaded with the unspoken tension of an audition.
Trust is still an issue for me and I guess it will be for the foreseeable future. The one year left of the 5 might do the trick and does not seem impossible. There is light at the end of the tunnel... I think. She is drained and in pain living under these consequences and feels adrift. We both do. It's like we are lost at sea and clinging to separate bits of debris, staring across the void at each other wondering if the current will wash us ashore our out to sea.
But we are still here and there are flashes of intimacy and hope.
Thank you Ats. See you in a year Amigo...


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, October 4th (Friday)

Nice hearing from you again Alex1. When I look at the old posts I can see we both have made progress in our R (even in just still being in the game). I wonder if I need to quit moving the goal post and then maybe I can mark up some points rather than the continued 3rd and long situations?

I will look for you next year on our 5 year.


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
LeopoldB
Member
Member # 40606
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, October 4th (Friday)

I may not be qualified to comment as I never did regain full respect for XWW which is why we are divorced. However, it is not strictly due to her cheating, the images of her riding another man, the lingerie she bought to wear for him, etc. All of that was bad, but I think we could have worked through it.

I could never get past the craziness she put me through. The things she blamed me for; the way she turned DD against me; the lies she told friends and family; the terrible decisions she made or the torment she brought. It is a shame because I did love her and still care about her. She can be a very wonderful person. But she lost her mind for a period of time and is too proud and blind to ever be remorseful. It would have been painful but I could have gotten over her spreading her legs. But the insanity that ensued was nearly too much for me to bear.


Posts: 212 | Registered: Sep 2013
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, October 12th (Saturday)

I wonder if I need to quit moving the goal post and then maybe I can mark up some points rather than the continued 3rd and long situations?

That is the question Ats.. Whether tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against this sea of troubles, and end the bullshit.

Is lowering our expectations and dreams and settling in quasi comfort too much of a compromise?
At the end of my life will I feel it was the right choice? For our family? probably. For myself? Probably not.
For me there is no clear answer. Ambivalence is king and we are grounding and pounding and running out the clock.
Hail Mary time?
Who's gonna catch the ball?
Sorry if this is too cryptic but I remain confused.


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, October 12th (Saturday)

I could never get past the craziness she put me through. The things she blamed me for; the way she turned DD against me; the lies she told friends and family; the terrible decisions she made or the torment she brought.

At 8 months I feel the respect coming back slowly, but only because my wife is working hard to regain it. Putting the sex with another man aside, it wouldn't be possible if she was carrying on like Leopold's wife. She does slip up every once in awhile (leading to my rant on BM 14 from a week ago), but for the most part she's all-in...now. Finally.

The extramarital sex really sucks. But we're all adults here, sex is part of life, most of our WWs weren't virgins when we met them. It sucks but most of us can get over that I think. It's all the craziness and the lies and the treachery that surrounds that behavior that's the real R killer IMO.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 10:47 AM, October 12th (Saturday)]


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 5:05 PM, December 30th (Monday)

Bumping this up in an effort to gage progress out there. Things for me are pretty much the same. FWW tries and means well but she is passive by nature thus she it's not in her nature ti initiate much of anything. Sex life is minimal. I do not suspect her of any inappropriate behavior. However, I do not trust her much, will not believe her at face value and have little respect for her. She is a kind person, a loving, fun and attentive mother and beautiful. Neither of us want to divorce, mainly for the kids, the lifestyle, the package. The marriage sucks. We have nice moments often but the stink of it all just won't wash out. A day doesn't go by when the names of her OMs don't cross my mind. I will not get over it. But I accept it and do my best to keep bitterness from devouring me.
Things can change so fast. One minute I know I want out, we both do. Then we will talk and both feel we will be together forever.
Being a grown up sucks
Happy new year and may 2014 be your best year to date.

Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

alex, I could have written your post-6 yrs last month for me. We get along OK but like you, I still just don't trust her, probably won't. Its a stink which won't wash off.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Normally I dont post in here.

Not even sure why I looked in. But the 2 to 5 year thing caught me. Again.

So. If the WS does NOTHING for 5 years or continues to lie. blame. and TT for that same 5 years. Were supposed to be healed?

It is NOT the number of years. But what happens during those years that matters.

As for respect for WW? Phsst. Not happening. Still hiding things. Still poor boundaries with men at work. Which is why I don't normally post here.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Mine still hides plenty too Razor. Leopard can't change their spots, you know.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Justgreatnews
Member
Member # 41666
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)

Loss of respect seems to be the theme of the thread. Same here.

Loss is the key word. I have the most tremendous sense of loss. I will never look at her the same again. As I told her, she took what was most important to me and gave it away.

I've also told her I have no idea if I will ever forgive her; ours is a strange story. Found out 5 weeks ago she had an affair 20 years ago. What a fucking kick in the head. Every memory evoked will be played against the timeline of her betrayal.

I don't subscribe to the belief that forgiveness is a given if the wife repents. If someone wants to believe adultery is unforgivable, they have that right.


Posts: 261 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: United States
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Hi Alex1,

I sure wish that one of us would figure out the alchemy to make a silk purse from the sow's ear.

FWW tries and means well but she is passive by nature thus she it's not in her nature ti initiate much of anything.

check
Sex life is minimal.

check
I do not suspect her of any inappropriate behavior.

check
have little respect for her.

check
She is a kind person, a loving, fun and attentive mother
.
mostly check

I am past the A-crap and her TT, it is really the lack of respect I feel for her. I have a project I am trying over the next few months that is based all on me and my perceptions to see if I can turn this thing around. If not, I will officially give up on R and wait until the kids are through school.


LTA FBS 54
dday 10.5.09
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4161 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

I am past the A-crap and her TT, it is really the lack of respect I feel for her. I have a project I am trying over the next few months that is based all on me and my perceptions to see if I can turn this thing around. If not, I will officially give up on R and wait until the kids are through school.

I'd love to hear of your project. If at any time you want to share it or have another take a shot at working the strategy let me know.

The lack of sex used to bother me and I am still quite attracted to her. However recently on the rare occasion that we have sex it lacks, uh, just about everything that makes sex good.

I'll stay for the kids and perhaps between now and then we will turn the corner, one way or the other...
Happy New Year!


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
eeyore
New Member
Member # 17178
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

I'm just over 6 years out now. I find myself lurking around here when I'm down. Today just happened to be a down day for me and here I am. Nice post on pg 10 WAL- should be required reading

I have always wanted to *know* how long it took other to get to a place where they could cope with the A. I had heard the 5 year mark was a good milestone, more or less. I guess I have been waiting for my bolt of lightening.

My fWW did all the right things after DDay, but "acceptance" is a relative term. I would say I still feel the burn of the old injury nearly everyday, certainly more days than not. I trigger less and it is less intense when I do, but I still feel a gnawing dissatisfaction with my M. Not enough to leave, but enough to be not what I want for my life.

I still love my fWW, even if I'm not "in love" or even "in like" with her some days. Leaving isn't an option because of the litany of reasons we all have that keep us where we are. But I still want more-but I've given up on a time machine.

I've come to accept that that gnawing feeling isn't going to go away with time or be addressed by fWW because she doesn't feel it. She is happy as a pig in mud. While I lost chunks of myself in the A(s), she gained the motivation to change herself for the better. The growth she has had is all for the better. While I gained a better human being as a partner, I am a more broken man for it.

This wasn't the deal I made when I got married.

I find myself wondering how to be good to myself, my wife, and my kids. I could give a crap about sex with her. I prefer p0rn, no emotional pain there. We are much better communicators and better on a day to day. But I still look at her warily when she is out a little later than I expect. Our friends all think our marriage is just peachy, even the ones who know about the A's. All of my wife's girlfriends think we must be so strong because we were able to make it through that. What bullshit. We made it through because I was unwilling to be a 1/2 time dad.

IMO, the scars for the wayward heal much faster and more completely than the scars for the betrayed. There is just less to the wound to begin with.

*edited for big clumsy fingers

[This message edited by eeyore at 7:33 PM, January 9th (Thursday)]


To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -T. Paine


Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: USA
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

Wow eeyore,

I am a little over 4 years out and feel that I could have written your post verbatim. Jeez, this sucks. I also suspect that the best I can hope for is a tolerable marriage. Whoop-dee-doo.

Still, others have it worse.


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
eeyore
New Member
Member # 17178
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

@ alex1

I think the kicker for me is that I realize that I am the only that really has a problem now. My own lingering issues from the events of the past are all that really remains to effect the present (and future). And then you realize how nucking futs you sound to anyone you try to explain it to.

"I know I'm screwed up, but I'm screwed up because of you!....No there's not anything you can do to fix it now. I know you are sorry.... Please stop crying....It will be okay. We'll make it through this." -and I'm still hurt, but angry at myself now for making her sad. And then I get angry at her for me getting angry at myself for something that she did. (I can Venn diagram this for you)

I also find myself still having strong violent urges towards all those involved that *wronged* me-fww included; equality and all. It doesn't help that I have to see OM2 every so often (weddings, random get togethers, etc) as he is in our extended circle of friends. I really don't think that those feelings are anywhere near healthy anymore.

I recently caught one of those "death row" prison shown on discovery or whatever the other day and this guy who had spent countless years on death row was talking about his personal feelings of hate. His point was that the people he hated couldn't give 2 poops about him and he was expanding all this energy on hating them and it effected them zilch. "It is like you drinking poison to kill that person waaaaayyyy over there." Simple way of saying it.

Seems like we are in a similar boat, from your earlier posts

[This message edited by eeyore at 8:18 PM, January 9th (Thursday)]


To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -T. Paine


Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: USA
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 12:04 AM, January 10th (Friday)

Eeyore,
The lonely burden of living with one-way anger can eat away at you like a cancer. Try to focus on living in the present. Yeah, it's like living with blinders on and every so often I feel like a chump and that the joke is on me. However, it's my ego talking. Self respect and pride are not the same thing. We must accept and move on (what other choice is there?).

Isn't there a way you can delete the POS OM2 from your social life? The thought of having to see the MF makes my blood boil.
Though I have never seen them, the POSOM's live near by. Often times I need to drive by their residences. This used to fill me with the poisoning rage and there were times when I staked them out with dubious intent. As luck would have it no opportunities presented themselves and nothing happened. Now the drive bys cause little more than a disgusted sigh.

Life goes on. Find your joy in the moment. Count your blessings not your misfortunes. We have this one life. Why waste in on one way rage? For who cares? Like you said its like drinking long distance poison.
Good luck!


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
MindMonkey
Member
Member # 41679
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, January 15th (Wednesday)

I've come to accept that that gnawing feeling isn't going to go away with time or be addressed by fWW because she doesn't feel it. She is happy as a pig in mud. While I lost chunks of myself in the A(s), she gained the motivation to change herself for the better. The growth she has had is all for the better. While I gained a better human being as a partner, I am a more broken man for it.

I'm only 6 MONTHS out and feel that same way. I know it's too early to say our marriage is recovered but if I'm still going to feel that way in 6 YEARS (or always), I guess I should just say "Mission Complete".

It sort of bugs me after going down on FWW and giving her a power orgasm how happy I make her... all the while with a black scar on my heart she's okay with not noticing.


BH, 35, CoD, Military...sober since 6/17/14
FWW, EA/PA (x2) different OM coworkers
Reconciling since 8/1/13
100% ready to file at next dealbreaker...don't test me.

Posts: 209 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: NoVA
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, January 15th (Wednesday)

wow, eeyore lots in common-my dday was nov 23 2007.

I still feel a gnawing dissatisfaction with my M. Not enough to leave, but enough to be not what I want for my life.

I know I lowered my expectations, and it has helped. Mine has not done what should be required, but I think she has maintained NC(but I no longer care to check up)-IMO that's the bare minimum.

All of my wife's girlfriends think we must be so strong because we were able to make it through that. What bullshit. We made it through because I was unwilling to be a 1/2 time dad.

same here, she was even telling her niece last week how "we made it"-her niece is a BW heading for D.

Try to live in the day, and concentrate on what she does right.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, January 15th (Wednesday)

Try to live in the day, and concentrate on what she does right.

Damn, acceptance is hard.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 21(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3301 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
LifeisCrazy
Member
Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, January 16th (Thursday)

Good morning, all. I haven't posted on this site in quite some time and, over a cup of coffee, was reading through this thread. Man oh man does all of this strike a nerve!

I wanted to pass on some thoughts that might be of value. Maybe it will bring some clarity that can help to ease a troubled mind. It's all good, ya know?

My wife had a 3 year, very serious relationship with a coworker - terrible consequences that don't need to be rehashed. But I, like all of you, really struggled (and, at times, still do struggle) with the "respect thing," not to mention the occasional "did I do the right thing?" retrospective. Here's what has gotten me through:

I really came to understand that "respecting my wife" was something in my head. I needed to get past the constant reliving of "what happened" and restructure my psyche to commit to where we are NOW. This absolutely required something that's not easy to achieve - 100% remorse and full recommitment to the marriage by my wife.

I have often said that without this 100% renewal I would never have been able to reconcile. There's no question that I would leave, despite the financial/family issues that would ensue. For many of you who can't do that, and don't have full commitment from her, I would certainly recommend an understanding that you're just in it to get through XX amount of years.

The reason I say that is because to me, respect and reconciliation require certain things to happen from a WW. Let's take sex for example - since one of the posters here has mentioned that his sex life isn't what he wants: For me, reconciliation meant that I needed from my wife certain things that were non-negotiable.... more frequency, more initiation, more experimentation.... these were requirements for me. I needed to know that I was getting more - and better - sex than the OM. Plus, since our communication has been SO much better since dday I was able to look at my wife and simply say, "Look, I want a trapeze installed over our bed and, every other month, I want you hanging on it. " That allowed her to show me that she was serious about meeting my needs and that she was available for whatever I wanted to make the marriage work.

This is just one example, of course. Today, my wife has to travel for the day. She has texted me 20 times, including pictures of where she is and who she is with. No questions. Not even a request from me to do it - it's just done. She realizes that this makes me feel better and that she owes it to me to do whatever is necessary. She is 100% recommitted to the marriage and to making sure that I know, with complete and total certainty, that there's nothing to worry about.

I guess my bottom line suggestion is that the key to reconciliation is communication and 100% commitment. Anything less is bullshit. You tell her exactly what you need and if she can't or won't meet you there - well, you're waiting for the kids to graduate, as they say.

The respect does come back. It comes back slowly but she can definitely help it along. As all the conversations go when it comes to reconciliation it will boil down to her level of effort. Can she do what is required - AND - can YOU tell her what you need. If not, I'd stop worrying about it and start the process of just living my own life.

Can you? Can she? Are you both up for the challenge.... not just to "hang in there" but to make your marriage better than it ever was? To get to the "other side of awful" as my wife once elegantly asked?

Today, write down a list of 10 things that you absolutely require to have an AWESOME life together, despite the affair. Let her know that you want to talk - the way you used to, after you first got married - and present it to her. Ask her, straight up, can you meet these needs? What are YOUR needs? Write ME a list. Become partners again in making a great life.

The respect can come back. It can.

I am pulling for all of you.


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2013
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, January 16th (Thursday)

100% remorse and full recommitment to the marriage by my wife.

I'm pretty sure many of us are lacking in that area.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Itsgoingtobeok
Member
Member # 37664
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, January 16th (Thursday)

Hello All - this thought came to me from another thread . Any way my WW is so feeled with guilt that she has treated this R very automaticly for lack of a better word . She will do to the letter what I ask but nothing more . I tell her I want her to call me every morning so she does but she doesn't do anything extra to prove to me she can be faithful . Through mc I've found out that our m was not perect and there are area I need to imporve . My ww wants to venture down that path rather then focusing on what she has done . In otherwords giving her a excuss to why she did what she did . It seems like she wants to act like the A never happened ?


BS-(52)
WS-49
married 28 yrs
Kid's -2
A- several
DD- 12-10-12
Starting recovery

"I don't understand the world today I don't understand what she needs I gave her everything she threw it all away" tom petty


Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Los Angeles
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, January 16th (Thursday)

Itsgoingtobeok-

I love your name, btw. Because it IS going to be ok....no matter what your wife does or doesn't do. I think you need to tell your wife in no uncertain terms that talking about the pre-A marriage is off the table until AFTER you have dealt with the affair. It does not matter right now. That being said, your registration date is a little prior to mine....how are YOU personally doing?


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, January 16th (Thursday)

Itsgoingtobeok
How she handles her guilt is her problem. How does her guilt prevent her from doing more than the minimum instead of motivating her to do more?


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4118 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
Uhtred
Member
Member # 40392
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, January 18th (Saturday)

I'm nine months out here and my ww is doing all she can to say she is sorry and try and R. I'm a total yo-yo and go back and forth on it. Right now I'm in a better place than I have been in eight months.

Respect? What does that mean? I still have zero respect for my wife and that is a direct feeling that I developed after DDay. There was a time when I held her to the highest esteem as a wife and a mother.

Back in the day I used to brag on her to my friends and my friends always said what a good person and mother she was and how lucky I was to have her. She was a successful stay at home mother (her choosing) our children are geniuses! Had I known that she was abusing my success and enabled her to have all the time in the world to fuck around.

I'm not sure that it will ever return to the degree that it was. I like her and we can have fun together but shit is never going to be the same. I hate this for me as it was never in the plan to be married to a fornicator. Our young children mean everything to me and I will not upset their apple cart.

I hope that its possible for the respect to return but for right now it is what it is.


Me: BH 32years old DDay 4-29-13
Her: WW 33 years old
“Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard
Some do it with a bitter look
Some with a flattering word
The coward does it with a kiss
The brave man with a sword”

Posts: 633 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Houston, Texas
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, January 18th (Saturday)

I think what has worked for me is to separate the respect into different areas.

I can say I respect her as a co-worker, because she's a dedicated worker, and always has been.

I can say I respect her as a mother (now), because she puts a lot of effort into that area.

I can say that I respect the effort she's putting into being a wife and partner right now.

To me it's like having a buddy who is really cool in some ways, but really flakey in others. You like him for what he is, you hope he shores up the weaker areas, but you wouldn't ask him for advice on the things that he sucks at.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 18th (Saturday)

Uhtred-

How are you doing, buddy? I seem to remember you going through some stuff substance-abuse stuff a while back.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
greengiant
Member
Member # 41196
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, January 18th (Saturday)

Well said, FacePunched. I think this is were I will be. Respect will never be the same as it was. I'll never respect her again as a whole, but she will gain more respect on some others areas.


ME - BS - 34 (33 on dDay)
fWW - 34 (33 on dDay)
Married 9 years, together 16
3 kids: 7, 5 and 3
D-Day: September 30th, 2013
She had a 6 weeks A with a COW

Posts: 145 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Quebec, Canada
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, January 18th (Saturday)

I'll never respect her again as a whole
I don't want to say that I NEVER will, because I don't like dealing in absolutes. I can say that it's hard for me to envision that day, but that doesn't mean I'll never get there. YMMV. I mean, you can read through this whole thread and see the evolution of some posters from "Never again." to full respect. I remain, as always, a firm believer in the capacity of a human being to change.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Justgreatnews
Member
Member # 41666
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, January 19th (Sunday)

I was reading thru the thread, and way back on page 7 Alex1 admitted that were his wife not beautiful and desirable, he'd probably divorce her.

I admire your honesty. I think lots of men feel this way, and wonder how many here will admit to this feeling?

My hand is up.

May sound petty, but infidelity is a dirty business, with stark realities.


Posts: 261 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: United States
neverwillhapn2me
Member
Member # 41912
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, January 19th (Sunday)

I was reading thru the thread, and way back on page 7 Alex1 admitted that were his wife not beautiful and desirable, he'd probably divorce her.
I admire your honesty. I think lots of men feel this way, and wonder how many here will admit to this feeling?

My hand is up.

May sound petty, but infidelity is a dirty business, with stark realities

.


Justgreatnews,

Im going to D but this thought creped up on me yesterday. Me and my WW are staying in martial home together right now. She was handing me our 7 month old. Generally do not look my WW in the face since DD but I did and my first thought was what a stunning women she is gorgeous.

It took a few minutes of me pondering R and how much better it would be for my children. Asking my self questions : "Maybe she is not a cheater, just simply a person who cheated"

Then the 18 month A was back on my mind, the lies, deceit, dishonour and lack of any empathy on her part for me (BH) and our DSx2.

Slowly I pealed the skin back to reveal her true self and it was not so beautiful.



The saddest thing about betrayal is it never comes from your enemies


If your searching for that one person that will change your life, look in the mirror.


Posts: 142 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Ontario
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, January 20th (Monday)

was reading thru the thread, and way back on page 7 Alex1 admitted that were his wife not beautiful and desirable, he'd probably divorce her.
I admire your honesty. I think lots of men feel this way, and wonder how many here will admit to this feeling?
My hand is up.

May sound petty, but infidelity is a dirty business, with stark realities

Thanks Justgreat for posting this. I went back and read that post and remembered feeling that way. In some ways I still do. I'm not addicted to her like I was but my feelings for her remain wildly ambivalent.
I still find her beautiful yet I have flatlined on her sexually and emotionally. She is remorseful and caring, etc at the same time she is so passive that not much happens. We are not moving forward only getting older. We enjoy our home, our kids, our lifestyle. However, after years of “not divorcing” we are both pretty miserable. I think we are in it for the kids. It’s a real and convenient excuse. Now age is becoming an issue. If I look down field the idea of starting over once the kids leave and beginning a new life when I’m 60 doesn’t sound particularly delightful.

The odd thing is that this has gone on so long that I have grown accustomed to feeling unsure of her actions, of being hyper vigilant, of not trusting her. I am now accustomed to feeling like crap in our home and insecure of our stability. And like any habit it can be comforting. One knows what to expect.
Not exactly the life I had in mind but these are the cards I have been dealt.


Facepunched,

Your post was great. A very simple and solid tip on how to navigate this.

I think what has worked for me is to separate the respect into different areas.

I can respect her for trying to save our M.
I can respect her for being a good mother.
I can resect her for her flashes of wisdom.

But

I can't respect her for screwing other men.
I can't respect her for the lies and deceit.
I can't respect her for her weakness and passivity.

But

I am not perfect and have made my share of mistakes.
+ - = 0

And so it goes.

But I will remain grateful!


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
Later
Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 11:32 PM, January 20th (Monday)

Given that I am heading down the divorce path I am not sure why I am even reading this thread, let alone posting.

But I have to say, since it became clear that we are divorcing my STBX has not uttered anything that has remotely sounded like an apology for what she has done to our family. She is "cordial," and invites me over "to see the kids," but she is seemingly incapable of showing any concern for me, and no genuine concern for my relationship with the kids. (I have no doubt that she regrets her decision and she is in a horrible place mentally, bit her concern is for herself).

I guess two things cross my mind. First, I never thought she was capable of true remorse and so I never held out any real hope for R. Second, I have noted a common theme where BM decide to pull the trigger on D -- anything that remotely resembled remorse ends when the WW sees the writing on the wall.

It seems to me that genuine remorse would include respect for the BH's decision that R is not possible. Even though we are divorcing, I would have a whole lot more respect for my fww if she could own what she has done to our family.

[This message edited by Later at 11:35 PM, January 20th (Monday)]


Posts: 385 | Registered: May 2013
greengiant
Member
Member # 41196
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, January 21st (Tuesday)

FacePunched,

I don't want to say that I NEVER will, because I don't like dealing in absolutes. I can say that it's hard for me to envision that day, but that doesn't mean I'll never get there.

I agree with your post, it made me think. Two months ago, I could not see me where I am today, so how can I say I will never be somewhere? Thanks for clearing it out.


ME - BS - 34 (33 on dDay)
fWW - 34 (33 on dDay)
Married 9 years, together 16
3 kids: 7, 5 and 3
D-Day: September 30th, 2013
She had a 6 weeks A with a COW

Posts: 145 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Quebec, Canada
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, January 21st (Tuesday)

That''s where I''m at in a nutshell. I''d still say that I feel angry and sad about the affair most of the time, and I''m a year out.... but it doesn''t absolutely dominate my thoughts like it did 6+ months ago. Meaning, at 6 or so months, it took conscious effort to push the affair to the back of my brain in order to enjoy other parts of life..
Now, when cool shit is going on, the affair automatically takes a back seat for a while.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
greengiant
Member
Member # 41196
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)

I see what you mean. At my stage, the only time I'm not thinking about this right now is when I am at work. I'm having physical symptoms because of all those things, so my doctor wanted to stop me from working so I could "rest myself" ? I told her that she must be kidding, that was the only place and time I was able to rest my mind...

By the way, any of you guy's is still having trouble at looking at your WW straight into the eyes? She say's the this is hurting her a lot that I can't look at her, but sometimes it's just too damn hard.


ME - BS - 34 (33 on dDay)
fWW - 34 (33 on dDay)
Married 9 years, together 16
3 kids: 7, 5 and 3
D-Day: September 30th, 2013
She had a 6 weeks A with a COW

Posts: 145 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Quebec, Canada
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, January 22nd (Wednesday)

Yeah, greengiant, I've actually noticed that lately, at a year out. I don't know why. I'm not ashamed of myself, why am I the one avoiding eye contact. It's weird.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
cvs2kkids
Member
Member # 41298
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, January 24th (Friday)

It's a case by case basis.

I like FacePunched's analogy..dead on.

It's been over a year since dd for me, but the affair was already over and my wife was falling apart mentally about it without me even knowing.

She is working on her messed up self and that's encouraging to me. She apologized over and over and has become a superior wife.

There will always be the hurt, to some degree, cause you can't forget. But I have 100% respect for her in the NOW, but not for the past.


Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your min


Posts: 241 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: NB Canada
Nitrobob
Member
Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 10:58 PM, February 4th (Tuesday)

I'm only 3 months out, and the pain out there is palpable. That there are so many of us here in this terrible circumstance is overwhelming. I have a few thoughts.

Realize we are a self selected group. The men who stay married but who are still unhappy return to post and gain support. The ones who truly survive wave goodbye. Most aren't here to help us have hope.

I'm hoping I can respect my wife again, that I haven't wasted 12 years of my life. I think maturity demands you set out criteria to establish trust, and then follow through and grant it accordingly. I think if you can't ever see yourself doing that divorce is the better option. So decide and then act.

I also feel the sting of feeling foolish and weak for accepting WW back. I think the work around is the promise YOU made, "for better or worse". She broke her promise of fidelity; that doesn't mean I break my promise to stay against adversity. That is strength, not weakness.


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell — 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
Uhtred
Member
Member # 40392
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, February 7th (Friday)

FacePunched,

I'm doing ok and getting weaned off the meds. I got hooked on pain pills when I had my finger cut off from punching the other mans fucking lights outs. I'm working with a pain management and having my dose reduced every month.

I never thought I'd get hooked on something like this but Hydrocodone is a mother fucker. I guess I just liked being high all the time while I was dealing with all this bullshit that my wife dumped on me. The doctor kept prescribing and I kept gobbling them up. I'm not in any physical pain at all. I'm just about kicked off of them. How have you been buddy?


Me: BH 32years old DDay 4-29-13
Her: WW 33 years old
“Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard
Some do it with a bitter look
Some with a flattering word
The coward does it with a kiss
The brave man with a sword”

Posts: 633 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Houston, Texas
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, March 3rd (Monday)

Timeline Check-in: 1 year, 2 months since DDAY.

I still go from feeling ambivalent to loving with regards to my wife. It's not quite a "roller coaster" anymore. It's more like the plain of lethal flatness...but not quite. I don't feel 'flat', per se...well, not all of the time, anyway. I feel flat, punctuated by brief moments of getting my ass out of the mud long enough to gaze at the stars.

It's helped that she has not, even once, tried to pin the affair on me since about 2 days since DDAY.

Also, that she became proactive in fixing her shit. She has been doing IC since about a month out, but I feel like she's really been making some serious progress in the last few months. She comes home eager to talk about it.

As far as the 'proper' subject of this thread, respect?

I don't know. It's still compartmentalized to the different aspects of my wife's personality. The longer I'm involved with, and thinking about, the topic of Wayward Wives and infidelity, I don't know that respect is something that can or should exist as it relates to fidelity. I think that within our relationships we expect fidelity.

What I mean to say is that we don't give awards or kudos to people who don't cheat, KWIM? That's the bare minimum expectation, and so the needle can only move in one direction, or perhaps the needle just snaps off in exasperation of being yanked downward so violently post-DDAY.

I think what I'm meaning to say is that thinking about my wife in terms of respecting her for being faithful feels like an absurd concept to me, because I would have never, in a billion years, said to myself prior to the affair, "Oh, I've got one of the good ones, she keeps her pants on."

The fallback position for me has always been to assume that wives and husbands keep their pants on until proven otherwise.

Fidelity is a given in marriage. Perhaps it shouldn't have been?


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
IsthereEVERanend
Member
Member # 42216
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, March 11th (Tuesday)

I know that in my case, the level of respect that I had for my wife will never be the equal to what it was. The affair changed all that. I see her differently than I did.
Much love has been regained for each other however.


Me: Older than dirt
FWW 63
DD 8/1990 She confessed to a 2 month ea/pa
Asked forgiveness but volunteered to leave. No way was I going to give her the boot

The eight most feared words used together in the English language: We need to talk. Th


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Utah
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Exclaimation  Posted: 3:35 PM, April 23rd (Wednesday)

Timeline Check-in: 1 year, 4 1/2 months since DDAY

So, my wife is becoming a new person before my eyes. It''s happening slowly, and unexpectedly in some ways.

What do I mean?

Unexpected answers to questions I think I already know the answers to. Newfound sense of confidence. A drive to do healthy things and be involved in healthy ways that wasn''t there before. Being involved with our son more than ever.

My wife is honestly excited about the Chicago G2G coming up, because she wants to expand our social circle, and because it''s something I really want to do. She''s spoken of running for public office. She is, completely uncoerced, behaving in healthy, independent ways in a manner I would never have dreamed of.

In some ways it''s a little scary, but those are just my dying-a-slow-death KISA/codepedent tendencies sneaking up on me. It''s the prospect of my wife not ''needing'' me that is a little scary, but I know it''s the healthiest way to live, even while there''s a tiny voice in the back of my head saying "...but if she doesn''t need you, why keep you around?".

I am proud as hell of my wife for the work she''s doing...the longer she works, the less she resembles the monster who cheated on me. I''ll never respect that monster, but my new wife has a fighting chance.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
outside4me
Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 11:07 PM, April 23rd (Wednesday)

That's awesome, Ascendant... happy for you, man!

I'm 3 months out from DDay, and it feels like day one, loss of respect-wise. WW is not like Ascendant's. Rug sweeping and escapism. Sigh.


Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

I don't need my W. I DO want her, though. I think my W is shifting from feeling she needs me to recognizing she wants me. It's very nice to be wanted. I much prefer it to being needed.

outside4me: I think 3 months was the worst for me. I sort of bottomed out then and plateaued for 3 months. In other words, if and when you let yourself heal (and you get to choose the timing), your life will get better.

I'm sorry your W wants to escape reality. That means you may have to detach to heal, but 3 months is usually, IMO, too a short time to throw in the towel.

I suggest that you commit to healing yourself and having faith your life will get good.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10754 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
outside4me
Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 2:50 AM, April 25th (Friday)

I appreciate the advice, Sisoon! I've endeavored to let go of the reins (a difficult thing for my personality type) and let her take the initiative. Partly to determine if she's genuinely remorseful, partly so I don't "skew the data" with my wishful thinking. Based on my initial attempts at 180 resulting in WW silent treatments or meltdowns, I'm hesitant to fully implement 180 for fear of creating a self fulfilling prophecy of D. The purgatory between R and D is painful! Hard to willingly prolong the suffering. I'm generally a rip the band-aid off kinda guy.

Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

Personally, I understand your desire not to skew the data with wishful thinking, and I approve - I did it myself, so naturally, I think everyone should do it.

I think this period (probably first 4-8 months for most of us) is hell, no matter what our WS is doing. In other words, you feel as lousy as you do because of the nature of being betrayed more than because of your uncertainty. Remember - you can't predict the future reliably.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10754 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

This topic of this thread poses such an interesting question, but at its current pace it won't fill up until sometime in the year 2029.

Maybe because the question is a tough one to answer.

As for me, I've seen the improvements my wife has made since DDay and can definitely say that I have more respect for her now than at any other time since DDay, when it rock bottom. But pre-discovery levels of respect (and trust)?

Not there yet, and not sure what it will take to get there. I now know some pretty bad things about her. I now know what she is capable of doing and the unreal level of disrespect she is capable of showing me, herself, our marriage, and our children.

I can definitely say this - trust and respect aside, I love her as much as always. Maybe more than ever. Respect and trust may be things that she'll just have to earn a tiny bit at a time, over a long period of time. See me when we're in our 60s.


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

Double posted

[This message edited by Alex1 at 11:31 AM, April 28th (Monday)]


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 11:22 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

I guess we are lucky to have saved our marriage (for now). My Fww has done a lot of work to reconcile. She is kind and considerate and means well. I love her in many ways. But I will probably never fully trust her or admire or respect her like I once did. I was very proud of who (I thought) she was, her integrity, her loyalty, her trustworthiness.
Now? Not so much. It sucks to live this way but it's the cost to keep the family together. I always felt she was better than me, out of my league, etc. Now I understand that she is flawed and weak and selfish. She's not better than me. We probably deserve each other.
Someone suggested here a while back that you should respect the individual behaviors and accomplishments of your Fww. This compartmentalizing of respect seems productive and wise.
Infidelity is a game changer and for me a permanent one. One that I've chosen to live with. One that I am learning to accept. Even though it means that part of me will always feel like a sucker...

Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
hrtbrkn77
New Member
Member # 43348
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, May 8th (Thursday)

I was very proud of who (I thought) she was, her integrity, her loyalty, her trustworthiness. Now? Not so much.

I always felt she was better than me, out of my league, etc. Now I understand that she is flawed and weak and selfish. She's not better than me. We probably deserve each other.

Infidelity is a game changer and for me a permanent one. One that I've chosen to live with. One that I am learning to accept. Even though it means that part of me will always feel like a sucker...

This is depressingly close to how I feel about 2 months past D-Day. My WW was my dream woman. She's beautiful, lively, funny, smart. . . everything I could have asked for. To find out that she wasn't sharing all of that with just me is somehow dismaying beyond my ability to cope most days. I hope it will improve, but looking at your d-day makes me wonder.

[This message edited by hrtbrkn77 at 11:20 AM, May 8th (Thursday)]


Posts: 22 | Registered: May 2014
Alex1
Member
Member # 26221
Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, May 9th (Friday)

Hang in there Hrtbrkn,

I wish I could offer sound advice but each of us has our own issues of family, responsibilities, pride, self respect, forgiveness., etc. to come to terms with.
At this point it's on me to accept. This final stage of grief is the hardest for me. Last night I looked at my wife and it struck my how beautiful she is and how loving she means to be. She is flawed but she is not evil. She is not a succubus (sp?) out to destroy. She really does try, she is kind (if a bit spoiled). I have chosen to stay with her so it's on me to accept and move on. However I may not be capable of it and if I'm not I think it will be because my pride won't allow me to get over it. Pride is a deadly sin and I now understand just how poisonous it is.
Beware.


Posts: 201 | Registered: Nov 2009
time2grow
Member
Member # 35983
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, May 10th (Saturday)

Timeline for gaining respect to fww ?

If I have seen this thread before I sure don't remember it. Anyway . . .

She will never be fww, schlampe will always be ww.

Divorce has been final for 3 1/2 years. Some I am able to let go of. I would love to say I'll let go of it all when everyone she knows has to wave to her from the other side of the glass. Sadly that's my own vengeance so I'm still working on it.


Posts: 1721 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Missouri
Caretaker1
Member
Member # 42777
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, May 20th (Tuesday)

It's very hard to reconcile with cheaters. It sucks but break ties and live alone for awhile and try to find a new love. Life is short do you want to stare in the eyes of these screw ups when you pass?

Posts: 234 | Registered: Mar 2014
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 8:49 PM, May 20th (Tuesday)

Timeline 2 years and 11 months, or 20+ years – which DDay do we want to count?

The respect has been a fickle bitch. But I have more respect for her now than I have at any time since DDay 1 so that’s positive. The remorse and working on dealing with this has helped. She has some fundamental unfixable issues that make it harder to do for her and for and she is doing it anyway so for that I need to find more gratitude. She is truly trying to be a good partner now. The biggest holdback is believing again – believing she is honest.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1161 | Registered: Jul 2011
Mercilesslynuked
Member
Member # 42997
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

This is/was a hard one for me and quite honestly TBD; I know which path I think I'm heading down but it is FAR too soon to tell what the eventual outcome will be. Pre-A she was an entirely selfish, complete and utter bitch who did the minimum required to keep me latched on... I saw glimmers of the beauty underneath but it was always hiding beneath the muck. I have 0 respect for that person whatsoever however I have quite a bit of empathy since she had about as messed up of a childhood as I've ever heard of. Should she have fixed this shit a different way? Absolutely. With that being said, what it comes down to for me is I can respect a new person. If she can convince me she is everything I thought she could be, a whole and healthy person who has thoroughly dealt with her CSAb, her parents infidelity, her abandonment by both parents, her mental and physical abuse at the hands of her grandma, her issues from being shuffled through foster care, her codependency issues, her almost rape at the hands of someone trusted, etc. etc. etc. I will not only view her as a different person, she will be a different person and someone who had the strength to not only face but also conquer all of that head on... That is someone worthy of my respect. The person I knew pre-A could not have done this and simply put was a leech and an idiot. She fights daily along this path so respect is growing like drops in the ocean, but it will not culminate for a long time.

As far as trust, I once read somewhere that a remorseful cheater who has faced their horrific actions and behaved appropriately is a safer bet than a new partner and I FIRMLY believe this to be true. I for one have learned some of my most important lessons in the hardest way possible so I can see the parallel. This unfortunately is entirely on her; I will never fully trust her, but over time I am shifting from a "verify, then maybe trust a little" mentality to a "trust but verify always" mentality, and someday to a "trust MYSELF" mentality where I no longer need to verify even. I will KNOW. Really that's the goal isn't it? We don't want to have to monitor a damn thing, and if we can trust ourselves to pick up on the most subtle of hints ever, then we don't need to monitor.


Never apologize for having high standards. People who really want to be in your life will rise up to meet them.

D-day 1/6/2014-1/23/2014


Posts: 174 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Colorado
deceivedguy
Member
Member # 44049
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, July 11th (Friday)

I'm only a month and a half out from my DDay. I cant stop imagining her with an OM. her facial expressions, what she'd say before and after...
I can't imagine ever having even half of the respect I had before the A.


Me (49), WW (44), 2 Awesome DDs
DDay 6/2/2014 - 16 years married
Possibly new or continuing A, currently.
Worst experience of my life. Still having a tough time dealing with this. I appreciate your support, more than I can express.

Posts: 178 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Indiana
Hurthalo
Member
Member # 41782
Default  Posted: 6:30 PM, July 12th (Saturday)

My fWW and I had some trust issues before we got married. Namely, a guy at her work was sending her a lot of texts after hours 'fishing' and I told her they weren't appropriate. He would send her messages at 3am while we would be in bed asking her to 'come out for a drink' which my wife would baulk at stating 'he's harmless, he's just new to town and wants some friends.' I decided to trust my W (then fiancee) to do the right thing and stave him off.

Fast forward three years, I am now knee deep in dealing with my WW's affair with a co-worker 8 months ago, and when OMW (who found out and told me about the affair) and I were exchanging notes, she told me that OM had told her that my W had confessed to 'leading a guy on at work years ago during our engagement' but that it was a 'story for another time'. My W still claims nothing ever happened. It's funny how OM and his W seem to know though?

My W also fantasised about taking OMs surname...bearing in mind that it took her 2 years of marriage to do the paperwork to take mine (and she was still using her maiden name during the affair), I felt completely emasculated. She said she loved him. He did too. And she would come home after work eavh day and tell me the same before going to bed early and SMSing the OM about the need for them to keep the affair compartmentalised.

So 7 months later, I still feel raw. My W is doing everything right, but the lingering stench of the ease in which she was willing to throw our marriage and the stability of our 2y old daughter's upbringing under a bus for a married man who was also concurrently cheating on his W with my W and no less than 7 prostitutes (yep, you can't make this up), still pervades.

If we didn't have a child, I wouldn't have even tried to fix it. I would have been gone on D-Day.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 6:33 PM, July 12th (Saturday)]


Forgive the unforgivable, or bear the unbearable.

Me BS (34) WW (29)
Married 2 years
2y old Daughter
D-Day 05 Nov 13


Posts: 138 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Australia
redsox13
Member
Member # 43391
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, July 12th (Saturday)

Five years out. I respect the work she has done to get better, and I never thought of her as a whore.

But it is not the same as it was. Don't think I will ever feel the same as I did - as though she was my savior - which is how I felt pre-A.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 7:59 PM, July 12th (Saturday)]


BS - 45
WW - 43
In R for 5 years, still hurting but finally letting go

Posts: 328 | Registered: May 2014 | From: nh
HurtingandLost
Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, July 12th (Saturday)

I never thought of like as a whore but I still four years out have zero respect for her, as she's done absolutely nothing we committed to for R, which included her getting treatment for her borderline personality disorder. We both know it will always be there but she needs to learn to manage it and stop putting this family through hell with the emotional abuse, selfish entitlelement to sit on her ass and make a dysfunctional chaotic mess out of every home we've had. Our kids deserve better and now we're moving on, and she's moving out.


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 2:09 AM, July 13th (Sunday)

done absolutely nothing we committed to for R
emotional abuse
selfish entitlement
sit on her ass
make a dysfunctional chaotic mess

Were you married to my fWW?

Like you, my responses were the same. Lost all respect, and all desire, and all attraction.

Never thought of her as "whore" but had utter disdain for how immoral she was.


Posts: 672 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
somebody
New Member
Member # 44127
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, July 18th (Friday)

Quite interesting to see that the As a lot of the time happened when we needed the WS. I was there for mine through her university studies, hospital visits, etc. The one time I needed her - and I said it to her, I needed her to help me that week with domestic stuff for once, because I was snowed under with studies and work - she confessed to fucking the OM one night that week. Unbelievable. D-Day was five weeks ago. I refer to her as a whore almost all the time to my friends.

[This message edited by somebody at 9:07 AM, July 18th (Friday)]


Posts: 20 | Registered: Jul 2014
steppingup
Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, July 18th (Friday)

What a great question. After my WW affair #1, the lost respect was one of the biggest issues. The GROSS factor was #2. Thinking about how the AP touched, kissed and penetrated her was sickening much

I didn't approach her for sex for 7 months. She didn't object she felt tainted too and wasn't going to push it with me. Buy the time we got back to it, was odd...emotional and painful.

Back to respect - no, the respect was lost and it will never be regained to persons who would never cheat. To BH who have considered cheating or who have been WH before, the respect I think could come back.

I am 13 years past WW's affair #1 and now a few months past affair #2. ZERO RESPECT

For those of us who are leaders in our respective worlds (work, etc) it is a DEEP LACK OF RESPECT that we feel. Because Loyality is #1. Falure to remain Loyal is like walking up behind your spouse and stabbing them in the back, its like pouring poison into their ears while they sleep...treason! TREASON!

that is how it feels and the lack of respect for them manifests itself as lack of returned love and affection and being generous with gifts etc.

For anyone considering an affair, its consequences like this that are LONG TERM which will rob you of many blessing in your relationships..for what, several sex romps? Surely it cannot be worth the loss for both in the realationship, these are hidden consequences the WS and AP never consider. This is part of the "Wages of Sin is Death".

The biggest one I lost is sincerely being able to know I always had a woman who stood by my side, thick and thin, no matter what. When I see a guy, proud of his wife... I just think "Gosh... I really wish I could make that speech someday... But if I do, I'll just be thinking in my head "And here's to my wife, who was with me through everyt... I mean, through almost everything."


AMEN TO THIS ^^^^^

[This message edited by steppingup at 10:25 AM, July 20th (Sunday)]


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

Posts: 721 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, July 18th (Friday)

I refer to her as a whore almost all the time to my friends.

I get it. And that's not you being mean. There really aren't a lot of nice things you can say about a married woman who's sneaking around having sex behind her husband's back. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Anyway...the danger is that the two of you will reconcile, but now you've poisoned the well vis a vis WW and your friends. I've seen that in real life. My own brother divorced his XW, told everyone what a mean and crazy bitch she is, then later got her pregnant, had the kid, and moved back in with her. Now we're supposed to pretend that they're a happy family and forget all the bad things he said about her.

Just my opinion, but I'd keep the "she's a dirty whore" thoughts within the confines of your own head. Since she can't "love" your buddies back into her heart the same way she can tend to your needs (at least we hope she's gotten that message), they'll continue to hate her long after you've stopped feeling that way.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 5:37 PM, July 18th (Friday)]


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
somebody
New Member
Member # 44127
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, July 19th (Saturday)

Thanks Sal1995. At this point, R isn't on the table. I agree though, I probably have told people who I'd rather didn't know.

Posts: 20 | Registered: Jul 2014
tooanalytical
Member
Member # 22306
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, July 19th (Saturday)

At 6 years now. She has changed from a broken person with no boundaries trying to help everyone to a model fww. She is stronger, happier in life and more confident. God is also in our marriage now.

Overall I am glad I helped her get to where she is and I think she is truly grateful for the second chance I gave. Do I respect her? Definitely. As much as pre-A? Not sure. She was my only and I held her high. Do I trust her? Yes, but definitely not as much as pre-A. I still get my triggers and go into investigative mode. I really don't think trust can ever get back to 100% for someone betrayed.


Me BH 44
FWW 44
Married 21 years
D-Day Apr 29, 2008
Children: 19,17,14
EA/PA - 1 year
Status: R

Posts: 285 | Registered: Jan 2009
HurtingandLost
Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 10:03 PM, July 19th (Saturday)

Somebody - I hear ya on the "told some people you wish you hadn't" part. During my stbxww first affair I called my FIL and asked him if he could put her up because she wasnt coming back to my house. He said her Mom did the same to him which is why they divorced. I no sooner hung up than he picked up the white pages and called every number, and when he got done he flipped to the Yellow pages. This time around, the fewer Jerry Springer episodes I get cast in the better.


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1032 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, August 4th (Monday)

1 Year, 7 months since the PA DDAY.

Feeling off lately, can't quite put my finger on it.

Kind of apathetic. A feeling of simply going through the motions. It's not that I don't love my wife, just a general feeling of 'blah' much of the time.

There's a lot of residual resentment in me. Much of it is not tied to the actual affair itself, but to her handling of the post-affair aftermath in those first few crucial days and weeks after DDAY.

Also, she's stopped going to IC (not by intent, I don't think, but she had to cancel an appointment for work and never re-scheduled. I'm not going to say anything about it; it's her responsibility to make the decision to seek help. I notice this stuff, sure, but it just goes into my mental dresser drawer of shit.

Also, she's gone back to drinking (nearly) every night. Again, I haven't said anything. If there were one singular issue that I think would be a deal breaker in the future, this would be it....I was thisclose to kicking her out during the affair due to her drinking, and while it's not at those sorts of levels (yet), the very sight of her having a drink in hand is pretty triggery. Alcohol played a monstrous role in her affair. I'm pretty sure that her IC thinks she's an alcoholic as well, as she's pushed my wife to check out an open meeting.

Also...sex. Nearly every time we have sex, afterwards it feels as though I've sold off a little piece of my self-respect. Like I've degraded myself. Like a whore. That's not to say that it's not pleasurable, or that I can't 'get into' it sometimes....but it's not often. I've never, ever been a believer in meaningless sex, and now that seems to be all I'm having, and it goes against who I am at my core.

On the plus side, my wife has gotten rid of her friend who hid the affair from me...it wasn't easy for her to do so, but she did it. The friend oh-so-sneakily blasted her on Facebook afterwards....but oh well. Trash will be trash, one supposes.

Lately, the idea of asking more questions, really hardcore sex stuff, has been popping up. I pulled at that band-aid really early on with a few questions and it hurt too bad...maybe I'm subconsciously wondering if it's time to rip the fucker off?

Also, the idea of doing a polygraph has been in my head for a long time now. I have a few yes/no questions that I want answers to....mostly to confirm things she's answered, such as: number of times had sex, whether she ever performed oral sex, etc. Stuff that there is a clear yes or no answer for.

Guess that's it for now. Feel like I'm building towards something....just not sure what it is yet. Feels cataclysmic...ominous. Dunno, maybe I'm being dramatic.

Thanks to anyone who comes across this.


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, August 8th (Friday)

Ascendant, sorry to hear that you're feeling a bit off lately, brother. Hopefully the last 4 days since your post has seen an improvement.

I was feeling a little down earlier this week. Nothing major, just the inevitable dip on the roller coaster which always happens after a good several weeks.

The drinking is disconcerting. My wife would binge drink during her A, probably to self-medicate. But drinking and shaky morals/boundaries are a toxic combo as you well know. Is she in denial, or do you think she'll go along with a treatment plan?

As for the questions, it sucks that you still have them this far out. Once you get your answers, be prepared to go back to square one, at least for awhile. You'll likely cycle through the grief phases again. I got the answers to the gory details three months after D Day, and as distasteful as they were, there was a sense of relief as well to have all of that behind me.

Good luck, we're here for you.


Me (BS)-46, WW-43
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1496 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Tred
Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, August 8th (Friday)

Ascendent,

What is the game plan if a polygraph contradicts what she told you?


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4128 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 6:09 AM, August 11th (Monday)

Sorry, gents, this thread kind of disappeared off my radar after I posted on it. So, in order:
Hopefully the last 4 days since your post has seen an improvement.
It has. That stuff I posted about is still lurking about in the background of my brain, but not as prominent.
The drinking is disconcerting. My wife would binge drink during her A, probably to self-medicate. But drinking and shaky morals/boundaries are a toxic combo as you well know. Is she in denial, or do you think she'll go along with a treatment plan?
Mmmmm...unsure, on both fronts. She doesn't deny she has abused alcohol in the past, but I don't think she feels like she is now, because the drinking is like 25% of what it was during the affair and she's not blowing up at me like she was then. That's not me making excuses for her, that's what I think she thinks. I get the impression that her IC is trying to nudge her to go to an open meeting in order to hear other's stories and perhaps realize the extent of her own issue?

The idea/desire to seek treatment has to come from within herself, otherwise it'll never 'stick', so I don't instruct, ask, or tell her to do anything. She's knows how I feel about it. She knows that there may be a day where I wake up and decide that her disease is something I can no longer have in my life. What she chooses to do with that information is her business.

As for the questions, it sucks that you still have them this far out. Once you get your answers, be prepared to go back to square one, at least for awhile. You'll likely cycle through the grief phases again. I got the answers to the gory details three months after D Day, and as distasteful as they were, there was a sense of relief as well to have all of that behind me.
Yeah, and I think there's a little bit of self-protection going on within me. I feel (with some notable exceptions like the above post) better with every few months that goes by...so I think a part of me is wondering, "Why risk tipping over the apple cart?", even though if I don't the questions are going to bounce around forever.
What is the game plan if a polygraph contradicts what she told you?
Done. Dunzo. Finished.

(At least I think so. How many of us said the same thing BEFORE we found out about the affair?)

I mean listen, we've been reconciling (or at least if she's still lying, I have been) for damn-near 18 months. If this whole time has passed and she hasn't had the courage to tell me that she lied in those initial days after DDAY when I asked (and asked, and re-asked) my questions, then she's not worth wasting another minute on. She's a healthier, better spouse by leaps and bounds in several statistical categories than she's ever been, but at that point that might not be enough, you know?

My guess is that I'd at least want a separation for a little bit in order to see what life without her would be like. I don't mean being single, because women are the last thing on my mind right now...I just mean seeing what a day-to-day life would be like without my wife, and without my son half of the time, and whether that's a life I can tolerate.

Thanks as always, guys.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 6:11 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


Other people are not medicine.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, August 11th (Monday)

Ascendant, I'm sorry you're going through a down phase. Unless you're very unlucky, though, I think the down phases are pain working itself through your system - and out. This is likely to be pain you won't feel again, once it's resolved.

It's true that an alcoholic is in control of her drinking, but I think it's fair for you to express a concern and ask her to attend a meeting. Same for IC - she wont use it to help her change unless she wants to change, but you can ask her to go back.

She can refuse your request(s), but your request(s) could be just what she needs to push her over the edge to take action to help herself.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10754 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, September 8th (Monday)

Bump


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 21(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3301 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Montreal
Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 6:31 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)

Respect? I'm not sure I know what respect means anymore.

I do know that I feel sorry for her. Which in it's own way is just as cruel I suppose.


DDay: July 6, 2013
Trying.

Posts: 98 | Registered: Sep 2013
ZTV23
New Member
Member # 44977
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, September 24th (Wednesday)

I used to have the utmost trust in my spouse and mother of my 5 kids. Now I have ZERO trust, and I am not sure when that will ever come back. Will it ever??

Posts: 38 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: Wisconsin
64fleet
Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, September 24th (Wednesday)

The utmost trust will never come back, no.
Some trust will/may come back.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5405 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Camalus
Member
Member # 40199
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, September 24th (Wednesday)

At a little over a year out, I''m in the ''trust but verify'' stage. I have a sinking feeling I will never totally trust or respect my fWW the way I did before D-Day.

Maybe the blinders (that never should have been in place) are now off and hanging in the barn.

IC explained it as learning to recognize fWW is a human with human frailties.


Me–BS age 61
Her -- WS age 59
Married for 34 years
One child, 30yrs

Her 'A' 1994(?) through 1998
D-Day 7/4/2013 Yes, I didn't find out for almost 15 years... but the pain is just as bad as if she were with him last week.


Posts: 127 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Near Houston Texas
HouseOfPlane
Member
Member # 45739
Default  Posted: 8:59 PM, November 25th (Tuesday)

The trust but at least occasionally verify stage is a good one to be in. Behaviors you tolerated before when you had blind trust, you no longer have to accept without complaint. Ever. Even if it is just an "I'm uncomfortable...this is bringing back memories" comment. Because it's the truth, so share it. In so doing, they'll likely realize the gift you are giving them.


BH: 50+ (20's at the time)
WW: 50+
D-day: approx. July 1987. Came home from trip early, found her in bed naked with her AP. Ouch.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Nov 2014
Topic Posts: 339