Part One - Discovery

My WH and I have been together for 15 years, married for 12, have three kids under age 8. A little over a year ago we relocated to the midwest, after 6 months of unemployment, for his dream job. Pay is fantastic, but hours for the first year would be super crazy. The move, the new climate (we are from Texas), and his crazy hours took a toll on our family. But it was mid June 2011, the year of crazy hours was almost over, and I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. My WH went out to the hardware store, so I plugged the kids into a movie in the basement so I could check my gmail in peace. I tried to fire it up, but instead of my account, I was in someone else’s.

It was WH’s secret account that he forgot to log out of when he left. The messages were suspicious, so despite the guilt of invading privacy I read them. There were about two dozen emails from the last ten days, nothing else. It was then, about ten feet away from my three children, I found out my WH was soliciting prostitutes, and had his last encounter days ago.

I was in shock and devastated. I was shaking and trying not to throw up. It came out of the blue, I had no reason to suspect it could have been true. I was ignorant of what to do, so I didn’t forward or print all the emails. Somehow I managed to forward the one email that proved his last session, where he said he would set up another one in a week or so (when I would be out of town with the kids). I didn’t know to lay low and collect more evidence, the proper way to confront, or what survelliance to have in place after confronting. I was out of my mind and barely holding it together. Luckily my kids were totally absorbed into the first viewing what would become their favorite movie of all time so they didn’t notice.

I went upstairs and waited for WH to come home. I confronted right away, so stupid. But somehow I kept my cards close to my chest, didn’t reveal my sources, and told him it was his chance to come clean and tell the whole truth and not F it up. I fully expected him to deny, to lie, and/or to blame me somehow, and I was ready to kick him out or leave.

That’s when he told me he had been seeing hookers for three years. Starting right after the birth of our third child. Now if that wasn’t earth-shattering enough, he answered every question I had without hesitation with what appeared to be the truth. He did not cry or show anger, any kind of emotion, was very matter of fact, but answered every question directly (yet did not volunteer any other information). He said there was no excuse for what he did, it was not my fault, he was wrong and he was sorry and regretted doing it and what it was doing to me. When I stopped asking questions, and had finally been quiet for a while, he said it all again and asked if I would ever be able to forgive him and give him another chance.

My head was spinning. I wasn’t expecting this. I told him I didn’t know, what would be advise his daughters if they were in the same position? Visibly rattled, he finally said I suppose I would tell them they have to know why it happened before they could decide if they could forgive.

This pissed me off. I knew whatever HE thought the reason why, wasn’t the real reason why. And whatever the reason was he thought it was, would only piss me off further. And I told him that. He continued to apologize and take a bit of verbal abuse from me.

I told him he had to quit all porn, anything electronically questionable including facebook etc because I would be monitoring everything from now on. He would not be going to the weddings and bachelor parties out of state he had planned to attend that summer. He would be telling me his every move from now on. He would be going to counseling to find out what was wrong with him. We would be going to MC to see if it was even possible to fix this. He would have to give me money to set up in an account in my name so I could leave if I felt I needed to (I am a SAHM). He would have to have a vasectomy, because he wasn’t having any more kids with me or anybody. He would have to be tested for STDs. He would have to take the kids to the wiggles concert, etc. because I wasn’t doing it LOL. I wouldn’t touch him, I wouldn’t look at him. He agreed to it all, said he would do whatever it took to earn back my trust.

THEN I found SI. To this day I am a lucky fool to get enough of it right this far. Good thing I did, because otherwise I would have made a lot of mistakes in the days to come.

I am sending hugs your way. I can only imagine how horrible you must feel. I am so sorry you have found yourself in this position, but this is a place where people really can understand what you are going through. Your story is overwhelming.

Please take care of yourself. I'm hoping you have also gotten tested for STD's? Also that you have found a good counselor for yourself. Please post often as everyone is here to help you through. You are in my thoughts.

His focus has to be on the marriage now if there is any chance of R, not his job, his friends, or any other activities. You and the family. Period.

He needs intense counseling to get to the bottom of his actions, he is an adult and certainly understands the consequences of sleeping with prostitutes. He gambled with his life and yours.

Take care of YOU for now so you can be there for your children.

Part Two - Aftermath of Discovery

So that very D Day, after confrontation, I found SI. I posted some, but not a lot, because I felt I didn’t have much to contribute. I was also wary since at the time most of the people posting had WS’s who had affairs, not just ONS or hookers and was questioning if I was in the right place, since most of the advice was geared at those in that situation. And it took me a couple of days to find the posts about the 180 and understand what it was. Since I didn’t have a secure computer, I didn’t try very hard to do more than read. I missed a very good opportunity to get some valuable insight from the people here that have much more knowledge and experience give me advice specific to my situation that could get me on the right track.

So during that time, WH shut down all his porn accounts and such, cleared out his secret email and tried unsuccessfully to shut it down, in an effort to follow my interpretation of NC. He gave me every password to every account, his phone, etc. which I checked daily. I had several panic attacks, one bad enough he had to come home from work and care for the kids. I then found the long thread by choppingonions and got educated on survellance and some of my mistakes in confronting, glimpses of issues to come, and started posting more so I could get into Investigative Tips. In my posts, people suggested I should perhaps investigate whether WH was a SA, which I had never considered before. WH was reporting his every move by text or phone, answering all my questions, helping out and being there, trying to do everything he could while I slowly went crazy and didn’t discuss it with anyone IRL, as I was afraid to open a door I couldn’t close.

And we also had a major setback two days after DDay. WH has always had all my passwords, and he logged into my email to print my flight itinerary for me. While he was in there, he saw my forwarded copy of his email from his secret account, and he deleted it. Not permanently, just put it in the trash. I happened to log in right as it was happening or I may not have noticed for a while. I chewed him out, said it was NOT the way to earn my trust. He apologized profusely, said he saw it and didn’t want me to have to look at it every day on my trip. He realized now he had panicked and it was wrong. Whatever. I told him he was a fool if he thought that was the only evidence I had on him (ha ha), and that I could make his life a living hell, and walked out. I was seriously reconsidering everything at that point, but I had to have some time to think.

So in finding SI, I discovered it was not only okay to take 6 months to a year to wait to make any decisions, it was a wise thing to do. I also decided to go ahead and go on my trip with my kids to follow the 180, even though I didn’t want to go and didn’t want to leave WH unsupervised for two weeks. WH said he understood if I couldn’t go, he would make up something to get me out of it if needed. But I did, visiting my parents in their ongoing renovation house with three kids under 8, which was stressful in itself but a well-needed break. Before I left, I told WH to not F it up again, to assume I could see and hear everything while I was gone. He took it to mean I hired a PI, LOL, and I didn’t correct him. He said he would text his every move and call every day. I told him it didn’t matter, if he went astray I would know. So he took me and the kids to the airport for our two week trip to visit my parents and his.

While there, I told my mom I had a UTI thus was not feeling well or acting like myself, so she wouldn’t worry about something obviously being very wrong with me. I downloaded books about betrayed spouses and the infamous Out Of The Shadows book by Carnes, which is the gold standard for sexual addicition, because it was the only ebook I could find on such short notice and I didn’t want my parents to see what I was reading. In retrospect it is not the best book to read when you are less than a week out from DDay from a potential SA, it can scare the crap out of you, but I’m glad I did. There were certainly enough red flags for concern. Meanwhile WH is texting his every move, calling and leaving messages, etc and I am not calling or texting back unless he needs specific info from me. He finally asks me to please call and let him talk to the kids, which I do, and am very emotionless when I do.

He calls on our anniversary (yeah, I had planned a trip during our anniversary, we were going to celebrate after I got back), which I thank him for acknowledging, and he says he tried to redeem our miles to get a flight there to be there on our anniversary but it couldn’t process fast enough. I’m thinking our anniversary means nothing to me ATM, but I coolly thank him for thinking of me but it wasn’t necessary. I even made an offhanded comment that if he was going to spend all that on a last minute flight, it would make more sense for him to do it when he could help me take all three kids home, not really meaning he had to.

Three days later he was on a plane to meet us and had bought a ticket back with our return flight. IHe said it was “too hard to do this in different states. I need to be here with you.” I t was difficult since my whole extended family was there, but I managed to pull off the 180 fairly well without too much suspicion.

But upon my return home, I would have many obstacles much more challenging to overcome.

then found the long thread by choppingonions and got educated on survellance

Good job grasshopper! ;-)

Sound like you're on top of your game right now... I'm impressed... Many times we get broken down souls ready to sell their souls to the devil to save their M's... You've been very measured...

My biggest concern is about how you're taking care of yourself... Are you eating and sleeping? Are your kids doing good?

Self presevation is very important here... You can and will get lost in his problems... Let me tell you this... His problems are only your problems as long as you say they are...

Talk to a lawyer... To protect yourself and your children... In the mean time... See what else he'll do to secure your and your childrens future in case he's just too screwed up...

I would have never believed my ex was as screwed up as she was... It was just too unbelievable to me... But it was reality... It was a reality I faced head on without a clue as to how to face it...

Keep posting... Believe me... We've seen so much here... It's hard to shock us.. (much)..

WB

1) He must find a Certified Sex Addiction Specialist for IC. Anyone else is simply a waste of time and money. My fWH sees someone who, while not Certified, is a specialist working toward that certification. She is amazing
2) both of you should attend a 12 step meeting regularly. You for spouses of addicts, he for addicts. There are several groups, SA, SAA, and SLAA for addicts, all with very similar programs and philosophies, based on AA, and for you, S-ANON, or COSA. If you can't find either of these, go to an AL-Anon meeting.

As a "yeah but" not all individual meetings are created equal. My fWH has found some to be too large, or too triggery, or too something else, but he has found 2 meetings that he benefits from. My meeting was a life and sanity saver for me.

The third thing for you to do is to educate yourself about SA. It does help somewhat to understand the mechanics of addiction. Two books that are "bibles" and are available for download are Deceived, by Claudia Black And Shattered Vows: Hope and Healing for Women Who Have Been Sexually Betrayed By Debra Laaser.

the book Mending the Shattered Heart is by far the best for Newbies but I am not certain if it is in ebook form.

There is a link in the "I can relate" forum for spouses of SA. Lots of good info on the first post.

Finally, despite what the prevailing belief is, don't be quick to label yourself as a co-dependent or an enabler. I know that I developed co-dependent and enabling behaviors as a survival skill, but I reject those as labels. We often behave in unhealthy ways when we are faced with unhealthy people as a way to deal with the trauma they inflict on us.
And BTW, while this is a TOUGH addiction to beat, I personally know many fine men, who are successfully sober for many years. Have hope, get help and take care of YOU!

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 12:23 AM, August 22nd (Monday)]

You are doing all the right things. One question...I noticed you did not mention your WH giving you a timeline. Have you asked for one? Have you gotten a "body count" if you know what I mean? Were there a few...a lot?

Also, one thing I demanded from my WH is that he pay US back for all the $ he spent on the hookers. (It came to something over $2,000 if you count gasoline traveling to/from his "encounters", special phone, etc.)

Did you ask him if he wore his wedding ring while with the hookers? Mine kept it on. Needless to say, that wedding ring is LONG gone. (replaced by a new ring)

Your post got my stomach churning bringing back such ugly memories. So sorry this happened to you.

Keep us informed on how things are going. You are not alone.

As far as self-care at that point, not very good. The trip was intended to make sure someone else would feed me, lol, because I tend to stop eating in times of high stress. The sleeping, um, no. I have a 3YO that does not sleep well in new environments, and he had bad allergies upon arriving in TX, then (although I never mention in the posts I've written) all three get a stomach virus and throw up all night long on different nights while on the trip. When WH arrived I did take some melatonin and slept one night really well when no one is sick.

As far as the kids...they can tell mama is sad and stressed out. I am not the best mama I can be. But they don't really see it as a problem with mama and daddy.

I do see a lawyer, and it is covered in a later post.

The SA evaluation by a CSAT will be covered in a later post. See, I am paying attention when I read here, LOL. 12 step, no. It will be explained in time.

No, Mending the Shattered Heart is not in E-form. I could only have ebooks on that trip if I didn't want anyone else to see what I was reading. I also have not been able to find it in a bookstore. I'm debating ordering it online now, although I wondering how it will be helpful now 60+ days out.

Body count and timeline is covered in disclosure in a later post. Also money spent for such activities and making amends for that. IDK about the wedding ring, probably so, I never thought to ask.

I will also post what books I have read, if that is helpful, later today.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 2:38 PM, August 22nd (Monday)]

Again I am portioning out the story because it is so long, having not posted this stuff as it happened. I'm not afraid of shocking anyone, LOL, or divulging too much, or whatever. I have been really really lucky in my journey to have benefit from other's examples here and I am hoping posting my story will do the same.

I will say it has been tremendously helpful in that I learned the hard way a long time ago to not take things personally, more often than not whatever problem is at hand - it is probably not *about* me. Even if it looks like it, or feels like it, or affects me deeply. This makes distancing myself and looking at what I need to do a little easier. I notice here so many people get buried in the onslaught of hurt, and they can't get past the "WHY ME? What did I do?" and it breaks my heart. That's not to say I was not buried in the hurt, believe me I still am, but I know it is NOT my fault and that is often my saving grace in getting the crap done that needs to get done for me to survive, heal, and endure.

We did have a car ride together where we could talk for 20 minutes during the trip, and I reiterated all my requirements and boundaries, said once again that healthy people do not do what he did, and he needed also to be evaluated for SA. I said he should know that by my not throwing him out I was giving him a gift. I said that no matter what happened, he was the father of my children, and if he was to have a relationship with them he needed to be healthy. That giving him the opportunity to heal himself, SA or whatever it was, was also a tremendous gift. My voice was matter of fact, but I could not stop the tears from flowing. WH was visibly shaken from what I said. He said he doubted that he was SA, but maybe that was because he didn’t really know what it was. He would do whatever I wanted him to, whatever it takes to save the M and regain my trust and love. In his defense he was doing everything I asked him to until this point.

I had also told him at some point I needed full disclosure, and he needed to work on a comprehensive list of all his offenses so I could understand the scope of what I was dealing with. He said he wasn’t sure he could get all the dates right or remember every single time, but he would try. Of course from reading here I knew he would say that. I told him if he had so many offenses that he could not remember every single time he violated our vows, we had a serious problem. I said I didn’t care about exact dates, just the number of times and approximate dates. He said he could do that, he would make a list and we would go over it whenever I was ready.

On that trip, my MIL gave me $700 for my birthday, our anniversary, and our youngest child’s birthday prior to WH’s arrival., considerably more than she usually gave for such things. I avoided talking about it with WH, but I knew eventually he would ask about it. Upon my return home, I used it to buy prepaid CCs to purchase a VAR, mobile phone spyware, and a keylogger, kicking myself I didn’t do this prior to confrontation. I lost a golden opportunity to see if he covered any tracks of other things I wasn’t aware of right after Dday that I will never have again.

I also hacked into the secret email he was unable to shut down, and since it was a gmail account, I was able to see his internet search history for the past three years, every search he ever made while logged into that account. I found all his porn sites, all his escort services, his search of a penis pump and a tracphone (both of which I learned later he purchased), his search explaining the different kinds of threesomes you can request from escorts (also meaning two guys and a girl, and what the different focuses of that could be), and the piece de resistance - an extensive search of adult bookstores with glory holes in the area, gloryhole stories and etiquette, etc from the week before confrontation. It was a tremendous blow.

In installing the mobile phone software, it retrieved every picture he had ever taken with his smartphone, including ones he deleted. There were a half dozen explicit pictures of one encounter in there among the hundreds of pictures of his children. Bear in mind I find all this out BEFORE we have had our disclosure discussion. Yet another blow. I decide to use this info to my advantage to see if he tells me the truth.

I searched his briefcase, and found two boner pills in a bottle with his diabetes medicine. I took them out and hid them. The pills were nothing new, he has had them on and off for years not because of impotency but because he likes the neverending boner. The fact they were in his briefcase was what was the problem, clearly he wasn’t using them with me. Strike three. I am about toast now. It is killing to hold all this inside, but I have to be able to see if he is telling me the truth during disclosure.

I searched his desk at home, and found a debit card card I didn’t recognize. I remember some tips from SI, and just call the automated number to see the balance and see if I can pull up the last few transactions without talking to a human. I can, and there is only $7 on it. However, it said there was a deposit for March for about $800, then two consequent withdrawals for $400 (the limit you can pull from the ATM), and same again for April and May (at this time, it is currently July). After three strikes, I hit the roof. I figured he had some sort of monthly bonus at his new job he wasn’t telling me about, and was withdrawing the cash on the sly, and god only knows what he was spending it on. I call him immediately at work and tell him to come home. This is something that cannot wait for disclosure, if it is what it appears to be it is game over.

I confronted him in the driveway in the car, away from the kids who were busy playing games inside. He took one look at the card and reminded me it was the debit card that was given to him for unemployment last year, that they did deposits that way. It all came rushing back to me, the deposit amounts did match and we did withdraw in that manner in those months the LAST year. The automated caller only said the day and month of the last six transactions, did not state the year. I felt a little foolish I didn’t figure this all out on my own, but in my defense I never did actually see the actual debit card before. I just saw the statements and such. WH said he didn’t blame me one bit and I had every right to react the way I did. It was lunchtime and he asked if he could go bring us lunch and have lunch together since he was here anyway. He dried my tears and told me he was so sorry he was doing this to me, it was not my fault.

At this point, I don’t know what end is up and now I am second guessing all the evidence I have collected.

So every day I am reading in SI, reading my books, etc and trying to focus on my healing and take care of myself first. Immediately upon return from my trip, I schedule an appointment with my OB for a full STD screening. I research divorce lawyers and find a large firm that only represents women that has free informational seminars, and I reserve a spot. I find a counseling center than focuses on marriage and relationship counseling, that has a couple of addiction therapists, and get DH to set up an appointment for both of us initially. I also find a counseling center that focuses on SA, run by a leading CSAT expert in SA that writes books with Patrick Carnes on related subjects. I figure if it pans out he has SA leanings, or the first place doesn’t work, we would go there next. The only reason I don’t go to the CSAT place first is they don’t take insurance and is very expensive, and I figure it is best to start slow. I had told WH we may not get the ideal therapist on the first try, we might go through a few before we find the right one.

I called a friend overseas, who is concerned and can tell even thousands of miles away something is up. I tell her everything, because we have no common friends locally or in my family so I know it won’t get out to them. She is currently in a tough spot with her marriage, no infidelity but is also in a less than ideal coexisting situation waiting out changes in her husband, so she is very sympathetic and not judgemental in the least. It feels so good to be able to talk to someone about it, even if she has no perspective on it at all.

We do see the MC. She is obviously deeply disturbed by what is going on, we are not the garden variety marital issues she probably sees. It is at that time WH reveals that the hooker visits averaged to once a month(in d day, he had said “not that often”), and states his reason why because she asked. He basically said because after the birth of our third child, I flat out refused to have anal sex anymore and other nonstandard things, and he got pissed off and decided to pursue those things with others rather than make more reasonable choices. That I had been much more sexually experienced in these things prior to our marriage, and he had not, and he somehow in his head needed to level the playing field with or without me. That it was in no was my fault, he was wrong, he made the choice to do it and bears all the responsibility for his actions. That he quit the day I confronted, and would never ever do it again. He was willing to do whatever it took to save the M and regain my trust and love.

I keep my anger in check, because as I said I before I knew this is not the real reason why, and whatever reason he would state would only piss me off further since it would be bullcrap. The hold on kinky stuff was during the newborn phase of child #3, remember I also had a 2 and 4YO at the same time. I was too tired and overwhelmed to deal with his increasing demands of non-vanilla sex. We had plenty of vanilla sex at the time, and after #3 became a toddler I was up to kinky stuff again. The use of hookers not only continued through all this but increased when the kinky stuff resumed, I would later learn. The therapist asks to schedule an individual session with each of us the next week, and both of us again the week after that.

The OB visit is hard. This is the first person IRL I admit what is happening to in person other than the therapist, who of course had to respond a certain way because that’s how therapy works. The OB is sympathetic, says infidelity is way more common than you can imagine and it kills her how many women from all walks of life come in her office for the same thing. She asks if it his first time to go astray, and I have to tell her what I know. When she finds out the scope of my WH’s infidelity, she flatly says, “Well, then, it’s time to go.” She tells me I need to find support groups, that being with others in the same situation is the best step in healing in her opinion. She tells me it is a very good sign that I have no outward symptoms of anything, but if that should ever change in my lifetime I should get it checked out immediately. She then tells me i will be tested for syphillis, gonorrhea, clamidia, herpes, etc and if they come back negative, they should always stay negative as long as I am not exposed in the future. She cautions that a majority of people test positive for herpes, because the oral variety will produce a positive result. She says the HIV test will have to be done again in 6 months to be sure, and again it only holds true if I am not exposed again. It just happens that I am due for a pelvic exam in 6 months, so I can get it all done at once at that time.

The same day I attend the divorce seminar at the law firm. DH is home with the kids, he has no idea where I’m going, assumes it is a IC session and I don’t correct him. I find out my state does do alimony, that child custody is a separate legal procedure from divorce, that post nups are legal in our state, I would not be held liable for his massive law school loans, etc. all sorts of information that is helpful and leaves me hopeful. I make an appointment for them later in the week to discuss my options.

It was a good day. I had hope. It was nice to have hope that day, even if it didn’t last long.

I'm doing all these things, but I am also crying in the bathroom, having strained convos with WH, alternately kicking myself for not exposing him to everyone I know but knowing it is tremendous leverage if I don't. I have wild mood swings that I desperately try not to show outwardly. But I get a lot of strength and guidance just reading stuff here, knowing I'm not alone and that others have been down this road before. It is a tremendous help.

I also got the pathetic "after the kids were born..." line about sex. what a load of horseshit that excuse is. They didn't seek out hookers because of a vanilla sex life. I loved watching a SA therapist confront WH on that issue, it was priceless!

Keep writing, I can hear the progression of strength in your story.

I get a sitter to cover the appointment with the lawyers, WH doesn’t even know I’m going., to explore my options. I tell them my situation, and they say in their experience when they confess to X number of instances of infidelity it is usually twice that amount. They are glad we don’t own any property, as it makes any potential scenario easier. They are concerned that the bulk of our money is in a joint account, and that I don’t have any cash in my name only. They are also concerned some of the bigger debts are in my name (because I had better credit at the time). I tell them about finding the photos via mobile spyware, and they are worried because it most likely violates privacy laws in our state even though the cell phone account is in my name. They tell me they will check on this with a criminal lawyer to confirm.

They tell me because of my age (early 40s) and education (MBA), even though I put him through law school and then haven’t worked full time in six years since having children, that best case scenario I could get maybe $1000/mo (EDIT: for 30 months, not life) in alimony, probably less even if I could prove his guilt. They told me child support for our three kids would likely be in the neighborhood of $2100/mo. Both figures highly dependent on the judge we get in either case. That any law firm should be giving me (or my WH) the same approximate estimates. My WH currently makes six figures (recent development), and if I were to look for work today, I would be lucky to get *any* job in the low 20s with benefits. We have amassed a large amount of debt from WH being laid off three times in the past six years, and I was legally liable for half with the exception of his law school loans. So this was a blow.

I know many would look at these numbers and say, well, that’s more than enough to live on, why are you complaining, you ungrateful toad LOL. Fair enough. But these numbers are best case scenarios, meaning I may not get them. Heck, I might not get anything from him, and it could take months for me to get a job that paid more than the cost of daycare for me to have employment to sustain myself. Remember I just moved cross country and have no family or support here, so I would have to pay for any childcare. Also it takes time to get set up via the courts, as many can attest here, so I could be without any income for him for months even if I was awarded anything.

Up until this point, my WH and I planned our whole lives, every move around me being home with the kids while they were small and him getting this high-paying job so we could pay off our massive debts quickly and retire without worry. We were finally in the phase the debts were actually getting smaller at a rapid pace. I never considered the plan could leave me with half the debts and way less than half his income to pay them, maybe NONE of his income, on top of regular living expenses. That HE could be the one to screw it all up and still give me the short end of the stick. That is the blow, the injustice of it all, not the actual numbers or maybe having to start all over from nothing. Remember on D day, I was ready to kick him out, take the kids back to Texas, and live with my parents or his mother and start all over. I still am if needed. That’s what I have the $5k in the bank in my name only for.

To be fair, WH had agreed to assume *all* debts if we D and he would never allow me or the kids to be in dire straits. But honestly what good is that promise to me, when he also promised to be faithful to me in front of God, a preacher, our parents, and 150 of our friends and family on our wedding day? It means nothing if not in a legally binding document.

I asked the lawyer about a post-nup. Told them WH thought it was some simple sort of document that should be inexpensive. They said all lawyers outside of family law think that, but in actuality it is quite complicated. It is essentially doing all the legwork and paperwork of a divorce but not having to deal with a judge, only negotiating an agreement between the two parties. That papers and such have to be filed appropriately so that, for example, I would in fact get my share of the pension when he died if that was in the agreement, etc. He said that no reputable lawyer would represent both of us, but if WH wanted to represent himself to save money that would be fine. It would run about $5k on average to do this, more if the estate was complicated or there was a lot of haggling (times two if he got his own lawyer to represent him). He also suggested we employ a different lawyer to update our estate planning and wills at the same time to reflect the post-nup agreement, and he would be happy to refer some.

Then I asked about custody. That there shouldn’t be any fight for the kids, we could work it out easily, but what would happen if I wanted to take them back to Texas. Well, as it turns out it is good I didn’t just stay in Texas with the kids, I could have been charged with felony kidnapping if WH wanted to. I don’t think that he would have, but the fact that he *could* have rattled me. I can go through the procedure to request this, but I could get denied, it happens. Then he said that the problem with changing states is usually the spouse that leaves gets the short end of the stick. They lose the kids every Christmas and summer, and have to pay the bulk of the transportation costs for the privilege of living elsewhere than our state. He said if I really wanted to take the kids back to Texas, I should get D in Texas. Like get a job there and take the kids there with DH’s blessing, get residency there and file for D there.

This was a big blow too. I have only lived here a year and don’t have a real support system in place. If I were to go back to Texas, I’d have my parents and MIL to lean on for support and childcare, in addition to all our old neighbors and friends. Going on my own here, with no support, in an area that has been hit harder in the economy than most areas of the US, would be very very difficult. Now, again, to be fair WH had said if I wanted to go back there with the kids, I could, and he would fly there every other weekend to limit their trips up here, as it is difficult and expensive to fly three young kids anywhere and he would want to see them that frequently. But again, how can I trust his word at this point? I have to assume what I am legally entitled to over anything he promises me.

So I left with a packet of info to collect in the event of post nup or D, a promise of a followup call for the mobile stuff legality and estate planning referrals, and a big sinking feeling I was SCREWED.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 4:33 PM, October 30th (Sunday)]

I also appreciate everyone applauding my strength, but I didn't feel strong then and don't now. I feel like if I shared this outside of this forum, then or now, everyone would see me as weak. Everyone would ask me why I am still here? Why didn't I expose him to everyone? How can I even think there is a remote chance this can succeed, what kind of example am I setting for my children? 2x4s.

Ugh. It's hard.

I also appreciate everyone applauding my strength, but I didn't feel strong then and don't now

I know exactly how you feel. I feel like if I was stronger, I would have left my WH. My WH is military and we are in Germany. I also have no support system. My family (those that know of it) have told me to come home. I can't bring myself to leave with our daughter and to leave my job to live with my sister who is a single mother of 2 girls. I just can't burden anyone else. The OW told my WH I wouldn't leave him because I had nothing to go. I do have my BA in education and my MA in Military History- but I feel like there's not much I can find in these fields with the way the economy is. I am currently working as a secretary with low pay because it was the only thing I could find over here. But, I find that just getting up everyday makes us strong. Just loving our children and being there for them makes us strong.

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says I'll try again tomorrow." ~Mary Anne Radmacher

Take things one day at a time....

So now I am armed with all these facts from survelliance, the doc visit, the lawyer. WH has his list for disclosure ready and I am trying to decide if this is something I should go ahead and do alone, or if I need to do it with the MC, etc. Because if he is truly SA many suggest that it be facilitated with a CSAT. The problem is I don’t think I can wait for a CSAT for it to happen, and I’m not confident that having this MC is going to make any difference in disclosure honestly. We have met with the MC independently at this point, and during my session I outline everything piece of info I know about him that could be a SA red flag, without saying why I am telling her this. She’s already a step ahead of me and says she has got a CSAT who is willing to work with him and see if he is in fact SA. When it is later brought up in our joint MC, WH agrees to go see the CSAT, who turns out to be in that SA specialty center I posted about previously as the backup plan. So that is on the horizon but I can’t wait that long to know.

About this time my WH gets a bonus for $10k. Says we should take a trip to Greece or something to reconnect since he and I have never taken an extended trip away from the kids (any bonuses, tax returns, etc prior have always gone to debt). Are you freaking kidding me?

So I do the math in my head, and rough estimates say he has probably spent $5k on hookers (not including any extra expenses that come with that, gas, hotels, accessories, etc.) in the past three years, if he is being honest with me about the frequency (again, only have what he said at MC to go by since we have not done disclosure yet). So that is why I had deposited $5000 in the new checking account in my name only. While there I also opened a credit card in my name only so I could use that as well if needed. Since the lawyer said it was probably 2x what he admitted to, I made WH pay an additional $5k toward an existing credit card in my name, and that the focus of our debt paying down should be on that card until it is paid off. Even though WH said he would assume all debts if we D, I am following the lawyer’s advice to get all the stuff in my name paid off ASAP. Then I also tell him the post-nup will cost another $5k, for my representation, and that was coming out of our joint funds when it happened. That he was free to represent himself to save any additional costs. He’s not happy about the costs or that I am continuing forward with the post-nup discussion, but he agrees. So in theory, I have 3x the amount he has admitted to spending on infidelity accounted for, 2x cash already alloted and 1x in promise. So that $10k bonus is gone. WH is disappointed there’s no trip now but knows he only has himself to blame.

A week after the STD panel, the OB calls me and tells me I have tested negative for everything. I am in my 40s, had a dozen partners before my husband in the late 80s and 90s before safe sex was the norm, and WH has probably been exposed to 30 or so people that I know of, and I don’t even register for a cold sore. If that is not a miracle and a blessing, I don’t know what is. A month later I would get the bill from the lab and there are a dozen tests on it, which I am happy to detail in a followup non-story post so others will know what to ask for. Evidently there is a large difference of opinion what constitutes a full STD panel, I would later find out.

WH had claimed to have been tested in March and been clean. I had told him he needed to get tested again and bring me printed proof of both, and again in 6 months. At this point he had been slowly earning nuggets of trust so I told him I would only consider open mouth kissing when I had those test results in my hand, which sadly is a huge motivator for him. So he makes an appointment to get the test and pick up the results of the last one right away. He brings it home, and I only see two tests on it, syphillis and HIV. When he gets his printout of the new tests, it still also only has these two tests on it, despite him telling the doc he needed a full STD panel. He only said do a full panel, did not disclose why. So the doc only ordered those two tests since he had no other symptoms, so I really don’t have a lot of sympathy for him. Frustrated, he immediately drives out 20 miles to the nearest Planned Parenthood that day with a list of specific STDs to test for, because he thinks he will get all the results that day. Turns out you only get the HIV results that day, and it would be at least a week before he would get the rest. To spare you the drama of waiting for the results in another post, I will go ahead and tell you they all come back clean. Another miracle.

So I had been going through the motions of doing the right things for self-preservation, and gotten really lucky it all worked out thus far. But inside I was still a mess and I am wondering if I am going to have a nervous breakdown. That maybe WH was getting off too easy, with me appearing to hold it all together, looking more likely to eventually forgive, and getting stronger every day when in reality I was not.

But I don’t know any other way. I have to fake it until I make it, so to speak.

Sending you a Pm

I am flipping out a bit, because I write these posts about 3-4 posts ahead of actually posting them, so I have time to go back and check I getting it all correct and making sense. I have almost finished the post about total disclosure and it has done me in.

It has been a good exercise to do, but I'm sure it's got WH wondering what the hell happened to me lately and I pity the poor CSAT I meet tomorrow for the first time.

Part 7 - Going through the motions

I stumble through the logistics of maintaining survellance via mobile spyware, keylogger, VAR in the car. I did not get a GPS because the mobile spyware could in theory do it, and any sort of reliable GPS logger that tracks in real time is ridiculously expensive. They are all unnecessarily complicated, not user-friendly, and sometimes fail - sometimes due to user error, sometimes it just doesn’t work. The installation of the mobile spyware completely drains his battery (right after he just charged it, oops) because the initial transfer of all logs/pix/files from his phone is so large and it renders the phone useless for a short time. The GPS tracking is limited at best and drains the battery when used with any frequency, and doesn’t work as soon as he enters the building he works in. WH assumes his phone is once again failing (he has had it warranty replaced 3x in the past) and says he may exchange it yet again, which irritates me because even though I have full access to the phone, it does take some planning to install the stuff without his knowledge. As part of my requirements I demanded on Dday, I have all his logins and passwords so I am trying to check those daily or every other day too. All this survellance takes a lot of time, time I have to be alone to listen to or read a lot of him listening to car radio, reading news websites, totally boring and droll innocuous stuff.

I find nothing suspicious (other than the previously mentioned explicit photos, which I would see if he cops to in disclosure), he is doing what he says. He never figures out I took his pills, so chances are they’ve been in there a long time and he forgot they were even there, but I’d see if he’d cop to that in disclosure also. And he continues to tell me his every move, take pictures when he leaves the office, call me periodically from his desk or on the road. But he works in a secure building, so I cannot visit, track or VAR him there. It would be easy to use a tracphone there, use some sort of third party app on his smartphone to set up hookups. He could leave his smartphone at work and go off somewhere during the workday, and the GPS would not track him, and as long as he didn’t say or do anything suspicious in the car the VAR wouldn’t tell me otherwise. He has given me full access to his work email and work blackberry despite it being a flagrant violation of the rules, but he gets hundreds of emails a day so it is not logistically feasible to look at them manually with any regularity. I stop checking those altogether. So while the survellance is comforting, it is not foolproof.

And as I spend all this time doing this, I constantly question myself between 1)nobody is worth this amount of time spying on and 2)you would be a fool not to verify everything, regardless of the outcome, at this point. WH senses my frustration, even though he doesn’t know of my spy capers, through our mutual attempt at tracking each other through Google Latitude, which is an epic fail. He offers to take pictures at his desk every morning, calls me from his desk phone randomly throughout the day and on demand, take pictures with time/date stamps whenever he leaves the building to show where he went. It helps and I do appreciate the gesture. The only catch is I have to pretend to see the pix the first time when he gets home instead of through my nefarious means, LOL.

He’s not accessing anything suspect on our home computer or his smartphone browser, he’s not talking on the phone in the car at all when I VAR him, the GPS matches where he says he is when it works. He offers to only use the home computer when I am in the room because in the past he’d go down in the basement when I was asleep or elsewhere to do his infidelity business. I act like I need to at first, but honestly the charade is exhausting so I tell him I feel better checking his history everyday to see where he has been so I don’t need to watch him full time. I figure out my mobile spy has a feature that can make the phone a VAR for a short while if I send it a certain text message. So the every time he says he’s working late or going to lunch, I text “ok” and I can confirm he is telling me the truth.

I get more lax about appearing to need more proof from him about his daily doings, which he takes as a sign of slowly gaining trust. The truth is it is mainly from the verification, it is way too early in the game to take his word for anything yet. I am more relaxed, not having panic attacks anymore, and for the most part can be pleasant with WH most of the time. He still is trying to be supportive but again I’m wondering if I am doing him a disservice letting him think his actions alone are the only thing helping me move forward. The time spent checking up on him also steals valuable time I could be spending with my children or otherwise getting my life on track.

The good news is at this time I am eating, somewhat sleeping, drinking water and somewhat resuming exercise. I go get a saucy new haircut, buy some better fitting clothes. I wear some very flattering dresses instead of my usual mom uniform of tees and jeans, even wear makeup on some days. I do not look like a woman in her 40s who had three kids in the past seven years whose husband has cheat on her repeatedly, LOL, and I am enjoying the compliments and attention not only from WH but others. My kids notice mama is a lot more fun to be around again.

WH and I are talking every night after the kids are in bed, reconnecting and establishing some intimacy through hand holding, holding each other, kissing, talking through issues as they arise. Since he is totally transparent as far as I can tell (further proven via spying), remorseful, and being proactive about my concerns and regaining my trust, showing his intentions through actions and getting better at showing it through words, I am not doing the full 180 but I am still reserved. I am finding because I am acting this way, he is trying even harder to meet my requirements.

But I am dreading the upcoming full disclosure. And having the continuing discussions of post nups and consequences for noncompliance and SA and so forth. I don’t want to be another sad story in SI, who jumped at R at the first signs of things going well, way before it’s warranted. I am afraid of being burned by things to come.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 5:02 PM, August 27th (Saturday)]

I know many would cringe at the thought of doing ANY disclosure, especially what should be the fulll disclosure, with a potential SA on their own. I totally get that, and yes that is the best route to go. But WH was seeing the CSAT, and it was clear it would be several visits and tests later at the very least before he would be diagnosed and the CSAT would be available to discuss it with me. I simply could not wait that long for it. I took some suggestions here on how it should be facilitated and also read up more afterward from tips here and did pretty well by sheer blind luck.

Be advised I had already asked a bunch of questions before this, mostly on D Day and some after, like if he used protection, etc. So he is not expecting the third degree since he knows I did not want fodder for mind movies. I did make it clear omission of facts is still lying and would not be tolerated. He asked if he appeared to be doing that, to ask the question again in a different way because he was focusing so hard on answering the question correctly that he might misunderstand what I meant, he wasn’t trying to do that.

Also before we even started with the body count, I went over my detailed requirements, boundaries and consequences. I wanted to tell them to him before I got sideswiped with disclosure and rendered unable to do with with a sense of detachment. Most of these were not new information to him, this was just the first time I laid them out in detail all at once.

Boundaries:
*Full disclosure of all past instances
*absolute transparency, all passwords and logins, accountability for all communications and whereabouts, and I would be doing random spot checks of all of it.
*He needed to being showing remorse, not regret, daily.
*No porn, no strip clubs, no hookers, no bachelor parties, nothing remotely suspect.
*Absolute honesty about everything, including slipups or later discovered omissions.
*Accept full responsibility for his actions in the past, present and future
*IC and MC as required, with 100% compliance
*any 12 step and other treatments as required, with 100% compliance
*full panel STD testing every 3 months, drug and other testing if needed.
*polygraph if I request it. (WH and I are not fans, they are expensive and not always accurate - especially if you are dealing with someone who is *convinced* they are telling the truth.)
*no alone travel (He had plans prior to dday, they are now dead. And he better get out of any work travel that would try to come his way)
Requirements:
*Minimum $5k in an account in my name only I can access, so I can leave at any time with the kids.
*Paying off all credit cards in my name first was our debt paying priority.
*We would have to figure out a way to separate our joint credit accounts, so they were all in one name or another (for the ease of post-nup/D)
*I needed about $5k out of our joint account for post-nup representation in the near future.

Consequence for not meeting requirements (any infidelity, I am gone. This is for other stuff). It would depend on the severity of the offense what would apply:
*sleep somewhere else
*monetary fines, like $1k for missing IC appointments, $5k for lying, $10k for infidelity for every offense, deposited into my separate account.
*I would tell his mother and sister.
*I would tell my parents and sister.
*I would tell all our mutual friends.

My delivery was different than just reading off this list. There is a SI post, I think from Serj, that outlines how to approach doing this, and I tried to follow it the best I could. If I wrote out how I delivered this list, this post would be a book, LOL, because to do it like he suggests takes considerable time and tact.

I would find out later that WH really appreciated my taking the time to do this. That it showed I was thinking clearly, was totally serious, and was coming from a place of love and not vindication. It gave him direction and told him what to do, and how he could help. We sometimes forget as BS that we spew a lot of random things that are not always helpful, LOL, so this reminds me I have to keep considering all this if I want anything to improve.

Now my heart is pounding, because it’s time for him to hand over the full disclosure.

He did have hesitations about the procedure when he didn't think I was going to stay, and he said so in a respectful way. At that moment I burst into tears and revealed what I had learned about not being able to leave for Texas with the kids, and the difficulty with getting custody there, which was dumb. But his response was he didn't want me to stay because I *had* to, because I wanted to. We would work it out and get what I needed. And in the end he did get the procedure.

There was a lot more to it than that in the post, that illustrated our relationship and his attitude towards trying to fix what he had done, mostly positive, but I can't find it. And I won't be able to recreate it, just know that it was a huge gesture he did it, and I did reveal info I should have kept to myself.

This is the hardest part of the story for me to write. Not because it is particularly shocking, but it was the worst day of my life next to D Day. I am writing about it now, much like everything up to now, matter of factly and largely separating myself from how it felt. I am not trying to appear stronger than I really am. It is merely a means of coping and survival.

This part of the story is ridiculously long. I can’t moderate the diarrhea of the mouth on this one. Sorry.

He gives me a cryptic list of dates and how much it cost. That is all I asked for, the approximate dates and how much it cost. He was consistent in what he had said in MC, the frequency did average to once a month in the last three years. He however had not stated that it was less frequent in the beginning and was getting more frequent, much more than once a month, as time progressed. Red Flag.

He also went more frequently in the months of December and June, which somehow chapped me because he has not spent one dime on me for Xmas, birthday, or anniversary (both in June) presents in the last three years. Even though that arrangement was by mutual agreement it felt like to me he saw it as license to spend it on this, even though I’m sure that wasn’t what he was
thinking at the time. Whatever the reason, Red Flag to be doing it more often on those months.

Since there are no times listed, I ask did he go at lunch, after work, when did he go. He said mainly after work, and he’d tell me he was working late again. A few times at lunch. I ask if he ever went in the morning. I have an old email from 2-3 years ago where he went at 9am. He said he didn’t think so. I tell him I have proof of a 9am appointment on a Monday. He, thinks hard, then remembers there was once or twice he had an early visit on what would normally be a work holiday before he would head into work, but it wasn’t the norm and certainly hadn’t happened since we moved here. Even if that is true, the fact that there had been so many encounters he could not initially remember he had morning appointments the first time asked is still Red Flag.

I ask if he ever took pictures or videos of his encounters. He said not with our cameras. Only with his phone, which he deleted the files the next day. I tell him I cannot believe he was so stupid to do that. He said it was only a handful of pictures and two videos (Ack! I didn’t know about those!) He said not to worry, he didn’t show his face and he never sent the files anywhere or took/sent them off the phone, and all long deleted. Again, probably not my best moment or idea, but I say I am aware of all that. WH literally recoils from this. I tell him, with all the ESPN you watch, and all the stupid sports stars who get their dick pix spread all over the news by scrappy reporters...how hard did you think it would be for me to get those files, from a phone in an account in MY name? He thinks now I have the videos too, and they must be bad from his reaction. “I am so sorry you had to see that. You must hate me.” Again, still no direct lying yet but big Red Flag.

I ask what else should I know. Probably prompted from the previous discussion, he said I know you don’t want details, but I did have a couple of threesomes with two girls. And I did look into having one with a guy and a girl, where we would both do her. But I couldn’t find anyone here that would do it that was well...a reputable source. I didn’t want it bad enough to use a less reputable source. But I would have if I could have at that time. So now I am pretty sure the videos are the girly threesomes, and I’m pretty sure there were no guy-involved threesomes because he would have recorded that too if it had happened.

I asked what was his fascination with glory holes. He was a little taken aback by the question, but said he was looking into bringing a hooker to an adult bookstore that had rooms you could have sex in, and that was the easiest way to find them. That it was something he had brought up with me before but I had turned him down, this was one of the last areas left he wanted to explore that I refused to do. But because all those places were in really scary parts of town here, he didn’t go through with it. (Well, and that Dday was less than a week after he made those extensive internet searches, LOL.)

I ask it again in a different way. He sticks to his story, asking if I thought it meant I was looking for random strange guys to suck him off I was greatly mistaken. Clearly the only way I could have known this was from his internet searches, so I feel okay in saying, “Well, that is what people who do those kind of searches, especially to the level you were searching, are looking for. If it looks like a duck...” He is irritated but not overly defensive. “I see what you mean. I know what it looks like. I don’t know how to persuade you otherwise. If you want to think that, you are certainly entitled and I don’t blame you. But I’m telling the truth.” I say whatever, but you need to have this same convo with the CSAT. Ok, so even if he is telling the truth, or has convinced himself that was the reason why he did that, big Red Flag. He was in the process of moving from hookers to random anonymous encounters, whether he was aware of it or not.

I’m not sure how I didn’t put this together until this point in the discussion. I’m looking at the dates, and realize he had over a half dozen encounters and spent $850+ WHILE HE WAS ON UNEMPLOYMENT right before moving here. When we had no other income, no savings left from the two prior layoffs, when I took a part time job and we borrowed from our parents to cover the bills. I am furious. I am trying really hard not to be abusive, but I can’t let this slide. I call him on it, and ask him if this is what healthy people do, pay for sex when they can’t pay for food and shelter. Reiterated he was very broken and needed to be fixed. That he had to disclose that piece of info to the CSAT as well. Big big red red flag.

I again reiterated that if he remembered anything else later, he had to come to me about it immediately. That it would not be a dealbreaker if he had forgotten isolated events, but it would be if I found out the body count was, for example, double what he told me. Since that day he has remembered two trips to a strip club before I was able to move the family up here, but nothing else earth-shattering. To spare you further suspense as of today I do not have any evidence to disprove anything he has told me that day, or found additional behaviors that weren’t disclosed, and obviously I am no slacker in the research and survellance department. But I am again only at day 60ish at the time I write this. The veterans here are shaking their heads at me now, LOL, and trying to figure out when they should start with the 2x4s. Especially since my whole story isn’t finished yet.

In the end, we talked about prenups again, how that it was important to me. He said that was fine, he was totally agreeable to it. But he wanted to make sure I knew, if I destroyed him professionally, he would not be able to support me or our kids financially. He wasn’t saying it as a threat, it was the truth. If he was exposed engaging doing illegal activities, his law license and reputation was at risk. I asked him why would I ever do that, what good would come of it? We could word it all in a way that didn’t elude to any past behaviors. He also asked when we finalized it if I could destroy all pictures and videos. I said I was open to discussing that when the post nup was over and done. Mentioned it was for our own benefit, so we could work this out in a place of love now and not in a place of anger later, with a judge calling the shots.

He shows his insecurity that maybe I am just prolonging the inevitable, that I’ve already decided to leave and why wouldn’t I after all what he has just told me. I asked him why wouldn’t he want to divorce me, then he could have all the hookers he wanted and see the kids only when it was convenient to him. Without hesitation, he says, “Because I want to spend the rest of my life with you. That life sounds very empty and pitiful.” Tears. “I love you, I want to be with you. I can’t change what I did in the past, but I can control what I do in the future. I will do whatever it takes to help you heal, earn back your love and trust. Whatever it takes. I’m so sorry.”

It was a very difficult discussion for me, and for him. If he hadn’t been totally remorseful, transparent, cooperative, actively seeking IC with the CSAT, committed to getting to a place to R, etc it would have been a total nightmare to do this without professional facilitation. Again I had dodged a bullet with sheer luck.

So why did I not feel so lucky?

You are a remarkable woman!

My ex is SA and he was into strippers and prostititutes. I legally ended our marriage (legal annulment). We had no children together and I was the primary income earner.

The reason for the legal annulment is because he had lied to me about so many things, before I ever married him. I didn't know the truth and had I known (about his SA), I wouldn't have married him. It also allowed me to escape paying him alimony and giving him part of my 401K if I had gone for a divorce. I'm so glad I did the legal annulment.

Even though as it was, that marriage cost me nearly everything I had. He quit his job right after we married to become "self-employed". My guess now is that he was fired for either surfing porn at work or sending nasty emails.

But I was the loving and supportive wife and wanted him to be happy. As it turned out, he brought home very little income, and he took full advantage of his self-employment status (too much unaccounted for time)in which to engage in his habit and all the while made up elaborate lies about deals he had in the "works" for years so I would think he was working very hard.

So, during our marriage, I let him handle the finances, because I trusted him. It has taken me three years of very hard work to start to get back on my feet again financially.

As for you, you are very smart to pursue the post-nup and to make the post-nup a condition of trying to R. I would strongly recommend that every single spare dollar he earns (now that he is employed and earning a good salary) go into your post-nup settlement.

Get it funded as soon as you can so you have financial security if you decide you need to D.

Since you know that he has played games in the past with money so he could fund his addiction, and that he has a history of lay-offs, this is all the more reason to make sure that any spare money go into your post-nup account now.

I do hope that he remains appreciative of the gift you are giving him by giving him another chance, with your conditions, and that he has what it takes to work through a successful and permanent recovery.

That is up to him. As you, good for you for making sure that you and your children are provided for in the event he doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain.

You are very strong and very smart. Big hugs to you for what you've been through and continue to post as you go through this.

[This message edited by somer222 at 10:52 AM, August 28th (Sunday)]

Just so it is clear, WH was not especially devious in paying for his activities. After the birth of our third son, I stopped looking at the finances very closely. I was overwhelmed of the change that comes with going from two to three children, when you have more children than you do hands, LOL. There were a few times I did spot check them and notice there was a lot of ATM withdrawals, but I would fuss that he use the debit card instead so we could more easily track where the cash was going and it would correct itself for a while. We go over the finances regularly together now to make sure that doesn't happen again.

As for deviousness with the time, his job has always required very long hours, more than 80 hours a week sometimes. I never questioned it before. Now he is required to provide proof of where he is, call from his desk and whatnot regularly so I know he's not stepping out.

Just pointing out he did not have to go to great lengths to deceive me then, not excusing the behavior. That's not to say he couldn't figure out how to be more devious in the future

Just so it is clear, WH was not especially devious in paying for his activities. After the birth of our third son, I stopped looking at the finances very closely. I was overwhelmed of the change that comes with going from two to three children, when you have more children than you do hands, LOL. There were a few times I did spot check them and notice there was a lot of ATM withdrawals, but I would fuss that he use the debit card instead so we could more easily track where the cash was going and it would correct itself for a while. We go over the finances regularly together now to make sure that doesn't happen again.

As for deviousness with the time, his job has always required very long hours, more than 80 hours a week sometimes. I never questioned it before. Now he is required to provide proof of where he is, call from his desk and whatnot regularly so I know he's not stepping out.

Just pointing out he did not have to go to great lengths to deceive me then, not excusing the behavior. That's not to say he couldn't figure out how to be more devious in the future, that seems to be a common pattern.

We did go to the MC a few times. She is very nice, points out some things to us and gives us suggestions to make our bond stronger. But she is clearly not an infidelity or SA specialist, so I thinking we stop MC and need to focus on IC for each of us. Me to focus on healing from the betrayal, him on his issues to get well, so we can get to a place where we can MC again.

He has seen the CSAT maybe 5 times now. He took a LOT of diagnostic tests and had many long discussions with him about his behaviors and feelings and what drives them. WH said that CSAT said he does not present like a typical SA, but has many of the parallel issues, and he likes working with the CSAT to figure them out. I ask to attend a session, wonder why I've never been asked to join one before, and why 12 step and other things have not been suggested. This SA center is big on a 3 month long program that includes seminars and group therapy for SAs and their partners, and WH doesn't feel like it would apply in his case since he is not a true SA.

This past weekend I met the CSAT. My purpose in going, I thought from discussing with WH, was to get CSAT's take on WH's diagnosis so I could understand it, learn what his treatment options were, and what I could do to help or not hinder.

Instead the CSAT asked me a lot of questions, and I felt like it was becoming very intervention-like. If I knew that was going to happen, I would have brought notes and other documentation, because I was not prepared to discuss a lot of these things in much detail. Being a lawyer it is WH's nature to argue the details and facts, and I can't keep them straight or remember everything unless I have it written down. I did not come to make WH have any breakthroughs, I came to get educated about his condition and felt uneasy about it, and reiterated that and why I was there.

So the CSAT says WH is in fact an addict, while he does not present like a typical case his test results and thinking/behaviors are not uncommon in SA. That he does need treatment. We go into further detail of what all that can be, and because I had read up quite a bit on this already (which I am sure is not the usual case with his patients), it's almost like parents discussing what is happening to their child and what they should do, in front of the child. You know, the child knows crap is going down but can't totally comprehend what the grownups are saying. I am really uncomfortable with it at this point and glad that we wound up coming in separate cars since the sitter was late.

CSAT pushes the course. WH says he does not think it's a good fit for him, and that he cannot commit to it schedule-wise or any program that means you have to be here weekly at this time only. That coming to see CSAT weekly thus far has been affecting his work (which was true), and he had hoped he could continue less frequent sessions and be given exercises and tools to help himself. This is not a surprise to me, he has told me this before. Since he had also been telling me he was not SA, it was something else it all made sense to me up until this point.

CSAT then turns to me about the program. I tell him I don't know that it would work for him. 1) He doesn't think he is SA, so he will not take the program seriously. 2) He has not hit rock bottom, so he may not improve at all with any course of treatment, so I wasn't in favor of an expensive one that required a lot of time that would jeopardize his employment. 3) I could certainly convince him to go, but if he went because I told him to, he would not get anything from it and then blame me for the time and money lost. CSAT then asked if I would go, and I said I'd think about it. My main concern is the program is for couples, and I would not gain as much from it attending it alone, but I'd think about it.

I then press him on what other options he has for treatment. He says he can continue to go to IC, he was happy to work with him, but the course would be more helpful, even if he only went to half the sessions. I ask about 12 step, and he says it would be helpful but doesn't expand on it. I ask about drug therapy, since certain ADs have been proven to help, and he says it is a good treatment for some SAs but not in WH's case.

I left the session overwhelmed. I was not expecting this diagnosis, or everything that transpired. I like the CSAT, but I question his methods. I can't help but feel a little bit sandbagged by both WH and CSAT, and I'm sure WH feels the same about him and I.

WH and I didn't get to discuss it until much later, after the kids went to bed. WH started with reiterating how the program would not work for him, and I cut him off. I asked if CSAT had ever told him he was an addict before. He said no. He said he wasn't sure if they just hadn't reached that point in their sessions yet, or if some of the info I revealed in his session just elevated his findings. He was frustrated that he felt like we were both a bit sandbagged, and now CSAT has planted seeds of doubt in my mind about his trustworthiness because what CSAT said today was not matching what WH had been updating me with in sessions thus far. He also knew I felt like I was pressured into a "intervention" type setting and told me he did not blame me at all, everything I said was valid and I had nothing to feel bad about. I did nothing wrong at all.

I asked if he wanted to get a second opinion, I certainly understood if he wanted to. He said no, another CSAT would run similar tests and exercises and would likely find the same results. I asked him if he was still comfortable with this therapist, and he was. I told him I wasn't going to push the seminar, but I was still considering it for myself. I also said he had to pursue some course of treatment, and that regular visits with this CSAT was fine.

I also said he had to attend some sort of 12 step meeting at least once, preferably one referred by the CSAT, because they can vary widely. He was not a fan because of the religious component, and I said that's why you need to talk to the CSAT about it, to get a group that's a good fit, for that and other reasons. He says he will try it.

I then look at all the materials in the program again, and then realize it is more cost effective to attend the program, even if you only go to half the sessions, than IC at this place. I point it out, and say that is leaning me to do it. That it financially made more sense for him to do it, but I understood the other reasons if he didn't want to go that route. And I'm leaving it at that.

I think I need a few days or more to let all this sink in. I am sure I need some further guidance and direction on this, but I am totally exhausted, mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.

Case in point, I also discussed with WH how now the post nup was more critical to me. That I hadn't brought it up since disclosure because I hadn't done my part on it yet, but I was going make it a priority now. That basically I was more comfortable with taking a lower amount of spousal support for life as opposed to a higher amount short term, and that I would like to have an infidelity clause with a major penalty (that could apply to either of us) for any future infractions. He was agreeable to both. So now I just have to prove on paper what I need financially, and he will most likely agree with out much struggle. I'd rather get this cleared up before going back to the lawyer, so we aren't wasting money while we bicker about it.

Secondly as a result of a PM I addressed custody. Told him in light of how complicated it was to get the arrangement we wanted here or if I wanted to move back to Texas in this state, it made much more sense to give my FULL custody of the kids. Then we could do whatever we wanted as far as his visitation, and I had no restrictions in moving back if needed. That he knew I would not prevent him (or his family) from seeing his kids. He is totally agreeable to that, which takes a huge load of my mind.

So thanks to those people who helped me with this via PM, it gave me the kick in the pants I needed.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 9:36 AM, August 29th (Monday)]

I can understand why your WH would not want to lose you.

You are being a great mom, doing all you can to protect your children with your actions.

Thank you for posting, it helps many of us to know we are not alone and taking definite actions help.

But then again, who give a crap if it's legally viable. Just the idea it *could* be might be enough to get things moving the way it should be. Because honestly if this all blew up, and he fell down the bottomless vortex and didn't want help to get out, no agreement in the world is going to help me and the kids or save him.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

I've been in limbo what seems like forever, even though it is only like 70-80 days or something. I've been getting my ducks in a row and still am not finished. We've been acting like we are trying to R but I know we aren't, we are trying to make the best of a bad situation while we figure it out. I think WH had convinced himself we were in R until our joint session with the CSAT, when reality came crashing down on him that we were not, not yet.

I love him, despite everything. I want to do the right thing by him. I want him to have his issues resolved, or at least treated, regardless of what happens to us. He is the father of my children and they deserve two healthy parents. But I'm not going to sacrifice myself or my children in the process either.

Mostly, just everything sucks.

That had to be a let down about the CSAT. Is it possible to attend another appointment? Maybe you could get more of your concerns addressed then.

Its definitely good that he is agreeable to the postnup and custody situation. You really are doing a great job at actively figuring out where everything stands and what you can put into place for the future. Meantime, Im mostly laying in bed with my head covered.

That scared me in two ways:

If he is going to continue the behavior, it is going to be further escalated and underground. That means random anonymous encounters (higher risk and no money to trace), by means I can't track (3rd party app on smart phone for example, and/or tracphone used only at work, etc).

Second is how that chemical process is affecting his thinking. It works the same way with the reasoning and lying to do the "drug". So he does not see how bad the "drug" is, his brain is blown out and it just doesn't appear as bad to him as a person who is not compromised. So it will be a LOT harder to get him to see reason concerning his addiction, to have his breakthroughs, etc.

I'm also seeing that I have some legwork to do before the post nup. I don't think I can actually put in a infidelity clause that would work, I may have to abandon that. I need to fast track diverting funds to pay debts in my name and in the account in my name now. I may need them sooner than later if he flips out on me. I may have to settle for less money to get him to sign something quickly, just so I can have full custody of the kids. I can't depend on his income anyway, because again if he flips out and falls down the rabbit hole, there may be no income to rely on.

Ugh. Reality bites.

But she might give him money that I wouldn't know about, that he could use for nefarious means. Or might tell her not to give me any money from now on, in light of what I did with the cash she gave me last time (when he finally asked about it, I told him I used it to pay for survellance on him, which is true. He assumes it was for a PI), and god only knows what reason why he would tell her not to do that. And also as a mother, I feel guilt because if MY child was an addict of any kind, I would want to know. The only reason I haven't told my parents thus far is they would make the situation much worse no matter what happened.

I am very very conflicted about this. I have a lot to risk if I tell her now since all my ducks are not in a row yet. But there is also some risk if I don't tell her now.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 4:48 PM, August 30th (Tuesday)]

I have decided I need to take the course, even if it means taking it alone. It doesn't start until mid month, so WH has time to change his mind about it if he wants. It's unfortunate, he is getting super slammed at work, his mom is coming to visit this weekend, and the kids start school next week so I will not have much opportunity to get him to see he needs to take it as well.

The first 6 weeks of the course is dedicated to education about SA. I'm going to be immersed in that, and surrounded by other spouses/partners in the same position. It will be a good thing for me.

I'm doing the legwork for the post nup now. It is going to take some time to get all the documentation for it. WH has offered to help, and he understands why it is important to me, but I can tell he is sad and disappointed that I have to do it.

I had mentioned to him yesterday he would need to buy more printer ink, I was going to use it all up printing the documentation for the post nup. He was supposed to go to a baseball game with his coworkers that day, something that he had cleared with me before we had the meeting with the CSAT. I had told him I was still ok with him going as long as he was pinging me his GPS and sending pix of where he was, etc. I don't know if it was coincidence, but he decided not to go after all and came home at a reasonable hour, said he didn't feel well. I'm not sure if that was the case, if he was trying to make me feel better by staying home, or trying to check up on my doing the docs for the post nup, or what. He's clearly exhausted, in part by the workload but I think also by the recent course of events. I'm worried about him.

I was going through his desk while I was printing out docs for the post nup. I find the box with the penis pump (he told me about that, remember) and inside were his last two orders of boner pills.

One was dated March, was a 30 day supply, and was empty.

One was from June, dated two days before Dday, also a 30 day supply. So between March and June he used 30 pills. One every three days. But that's not the worst part.

This packet from June? There are ten pills left. He has used 20 pills SINCE I CONFRONTED HIM ON D DAY. Not even three months ago.

I want to die.

Make it stop.

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I know how this feels worse than D day itself.

My suggestion would be to call his CSAT and get an appointment with him alone. You need some information and his insight into your WH's problem.

It sounds to me as if the CSAT attempted to force an intervention when you were present at the meeting and I imagine he did this because he is not buying what your WH is telling him.

Here are some of the things I think would be helpful to discuss with his CSAT:

1. His lay-offs. Unless you are 100% certain these were bona-fide layoffs, and didn't get that information directly from him, the lay-offs could be a sign that he has been caught pursuing his addiction at work, surfing porn, unexplained absences, etc.
2. His use of marital money on his addiction and the extent of what he has spent (to the best of your knowledge). Though you seemed to kind of excuse this earlier, it is a huge problem in some many respects.
3. The fact that he deleted his email accts and porn accounts but kept his penis pump and boner pills and that some pills are missing after D day.
4. That he chose to relay to you a very benigh interpretation of what the CSAT had to say about his "SA. Is he in denial or does he want to keep his options open so he can continue with his SA? I think you need to get to the bottom of this. He is also trying to negotiate the terms of his treatment and not doing what the CSAT advises.
5. He told you in advance that his new job would have crazy hours. It might have, but he may have told you this in order to have extra time in which to pursue his addiction without discovery.
6. Ask his CSAT what he feels is driving your WH's SA. Is it past abuse, narcissism, etc.?
7. Ask his CSAT where to go from here in terms of treatment recommendations.

The sad truth is that right now, what you are finding is that you cannot believe what your WH is telling you. If your goal is to get him to accept the fact that he really needs help and that he needs to come completely clean with you and the CSAT and that he needs to work a recovery program in complete earnest, then I would partner with the CSAT and see what can be done to get him there.

It is impossible for you to keep him under 100% surveillance for the rest of your life. If he isn't working toward recovery (in earnest), this is exactly what you'll try to do and he will just figure out ways to go more underground with the addiction so you don't catch him.

And please remember that whatever you end up deciding to do with respect to your marriage, you will be supported and respected in this forum. I did end my marriage, but my circumstances were different from yours in that I did not have children to consider and I was the primary income earner.

What I'm trying to say is that ending the marriage is not the "only" solution because that is what I did. Had my circumstances been different, I may have tried to R, but I would have fully involved a CSAT had that been my choice.

I'm three and a half years out and I remember all too well, the shock, the horror and the incredible pain my ex's SA caused me and him, in terms of consequences.

Good luck and big hugs.

[This message edited by somer222 at 7:05 AM, September 1st (Thursday)]

As for the layoffs, he was in a group of people laid off each time. However, that doesn't mean someone in HR wasn't aware of something fishy and put him at the top of the list when it came time to trim the fat.

And I'm not excusing his spending, I'm just saying it has not been hard to hide them from me in the past. He hasn't had to be that devious, although it is certainly possible he was and there is more I have not found. I see that now. I'm taking measures so it will not be that easy in the future. There is too much at stake.

As for why, the CSAT indicated he had unusually high marks in the areas of control and compartmentalization. So he really does think he can control it all, and he can keep it all separate from his "real" life and not appear to let it affect him. So in addition to whatever made him become this way, it's going to be very hard to convince him he's got a problem he can't solve on his own, and it will be difficult to tell when he strays from signals that would cue my gut.

The reality is I have to prepare for the worse even if I am hoping for the best. I told him this morning I am moving all our emergency savings to my account, that I cannot trust him with our emergency savings any more. And didn't give any more info than that. He was taken aback, but had no problem with it. He really didn't have an opportunity to ask about it further, and won't with his mom coming. I was conflicted about just doing it anyway without consulting him, but I've decided I have no reason not to be up front about it. If he blocks the transfer, then I know EXACTLY where I stand and I'm throwing him out. I'm hoping he sees this as another serious consequence and that he considers therapy options more seriously.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 7:34 AM, September 1st (Thursday)]

Long shot, but are you sure they are dated this year? I have freaked out about something before and realized it was that date last year not this.

I just dont even know what to say. That could be really devastating if it means what it appears to mean.

Hard as this would be, I might suggest leaving the pills there and checking back in a week or so to see if more are missing.

ETA, somer those are excellent suggestions, Im going to note those down to use myself.

And also, hhf, have you been able to come up with a rough account of the money that he used during those times. Not the number he gave you, but your own calculations. It may include benign spending money but at least you can get a ballpark figure of how much is unaccounted for.

[This message edited by DrivingPast at 7:49 AM, September 1st (Thursday)]

Perhaps you are right. I can take a picture with a time date stamp today, put them back, and see what happens. I was thinking taking them would spur him to order more, but yeah I see your point.

I am super pissed this is going down when MIL is coming. This greatly hampers my ability to check this all out.

I have called the CSAT and left a message about the pills, left my number if he wants to discuss it further. I'm not going to try to set up an appointment with him until after the holiday weekend and I have the sitter service engaged and ready to go.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 9:12 AM, September 1st (Thursday)]

So I'm 50% done with the support documentation I need to provide to the lawyer to do the post nup. I found all the charges for the pills on his credit cards, they were on different cards that had been maxed out for a while so it was easy to sneak a new charge on it since I wasn't looking at those bills closely. He did a different one each time, to further make it less noticeable. But now there is clear cut evidence he is ordering at least what I know about.

I won't get to make much further progress on anything this weekend, MIL will be here in an hour or so and is staying through Tuesday.

Thanks everyone for sticking with my sordid soap opera, and offering support via posts and PMs. I will continue to update.

inside were his last two orders of boner pills.One was dated March, was a 30 day supply, and was empty. One was from June, dated two days before Dday, also a 30 day supply. So between March and June he used 30 pills. One every three days.

"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you.” ~Dale Galloway

But no, he has not confessed to hookers every three days. So far there is not evidence to support he paid for hookers every three days, YET. And anonymous encounters are free, if he's doing that.

It will be difficult to tell if he continues to use them. He will know I've been in the box, if that matters, and also the CSAT told him to go cold turkey on everything for 90 days. But his urologist requires a certain number of, um, "system cleanouts" to verify if the vasectomy worked.

Ugh.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 11:11 AM, September 2nd (Friday)]

Basically, I couldn't wait to confront about the pills. I feel very strongly about the health risks, I had to put a stop to it. So I had a long talk about stuff in general, and gave him every opportunity to share the info first.

Turns out I was reading the scripts/packaging wrong, it was only 10, not 30 pills every three months. This place dispenses all pills in their own 30pk blister packaging, no matter how many pills there are, so it will fit in a FedEx envelope. The other 20 slots were sealed and empty. WH explained it to me, and I verified it. So it is one pill every ten days or so, not every three days. And the ten pills that came in June were never used.

So assuming there is not another source of the pills, I felt better it was not as bad as I thought. However, I made sure I made my feelings clear about the pills in general, that healthy men in their 30s do not take those pills without a blessing of their actual doctor and their wife/partner. I expressed my disappointment in him not coming totally clean on the quantity and the $ spent during disclosure. I asked him if he knew how much he spent in total, and he only guessed what he had spent in the past year, and I called him on it. Told him I had proof, and I will find out if there are other sources and it will be game over if there are. Lies of omission are still lies.

In his TT addict-addled mind, the boner pills were not an infidelity expense, because he bought them intending to use them with me. But he wound up using them with me, for himself, and for use with his hookers. He said himself he should have seen it for what it was, confessed it during disclosure, and he could see now it was like ripping open a whole new DDay for me. Apologized profusely, etc. Typical WH stuff.

Anyway, this was all part of a larger general discussion about his denial of the very serious issues he had, whether he believed in SA or not. That he had been given this extremely generous gift of one year to prove himself and in two months, I trusted him less than before. And a very funny discussion (not at the time, just looking back now) about our differing feelings about 12 step programs which I will talk about in a future post.

Somewhat of a breakthrough, or at least a step or two closer in getting him to understand the gravity of the situation, the potentially seriously consequences of all his actions and choices. Basically as much as I loved him, I was not letting him take me down with him.

And that's when he conceded and said he'd go to the SA/SAS class with me. We discussed it, that it wasn't the most ideal solution but it was the very best solution we had right now. That we could get educated on his issues, get the separate group therapy we needed from it, get our action plans for each of us to endure this.

So that's where we are at now. I have not told his mother, who is still visiting. I'm still gathering the documentation for the post nup, and continuing combing through those for other clues.

I'm trying to remain hopeful and positive. But at least I know I am doing all I can even for worst case scenario.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 3:30 PM, September 3rd (Saturday)]

Sex addiction leaves many people in pieces. Your determination will enable you to see this through.

You stated:

Turns out I was reading the scripts/packaging wrong, it was only 10, not 30 pills every three months

Hacked into his account at the source of boner pills. He has spent $2000 with them in total, half of that in the past year

I can understand being alone; but I hate being with someone and feeling lonely.

Thanks, ScaredyKat. I'm hoping to work in something like that soon, as soon as the older kids are back in school. It is hard to justify treating yourself when a) your WS frittered so much money away and b) you need to spend every available free moment doing stuff for self preservation (post nup stuff, getting tested for STDs, etc.). But it does do wonders for the soul. I did go get a hair cut and all that a month ago, and it felt so good.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 9:51 AM, September 4th (Sunday)]

Gathering the documentation for the post nup is tedious and taking a long time. You are essentially gathering all the docs for a divorce in advance. I've had to switch to a 3" binder and I'm about 2/3 through getting everything I need. I want to have it done and in the lawyer's hands by the end of the month.

In securing this documentation, I've confirmed WH has been sloppy with bill paying, which could affect my credit. I am taking *all* of that over as of next month as well.

WH still has agreed to attend the SA/SAS course with me. We are working with a babysitting service to find us childcare while that happens.

He is minimally meeting my requirements, but not going out of his way to prove himself. Once the post nup is signed I am going to go 180 on him if he doesn't fully step up. By then the course is in full swing as well, all our savings will be in my account, so if that doesn't get some stuff started I don't know what will.

Dropping in quickly to give you a hug for support. I've read through the whole thread plus the posts down in ICR and I'm proud of you for all of the work you've done so far. I attended a 'short version' of the 3 month course, and I highly recommend it to you. Keep going with the post-nup, at a minimum it'll offer you some peace of mind for the future. IMO, if you can get an individual appointment with the CSAT I'd do so simply for clarity. If you don't already have one, get your SAWH to sign a disclosure form so you'll have the maximum amount of information available to you and the CSAT will be legally protected also. Meanwhile, try and take care of yourself, find a good IC for you and start going. SA is a long road, I've found that regular IC has been a lifesaver for me.

Hugs! Sabina

I agree with Sabrina about getting a one-on-one with the CSAT. I think what you'll need to have your WH sign is a HIPAA privacy form so that the CSAT is free to discuss his situation with you.

I think it will help you to get more clarity on your WH's situation and you'll be able to provide the CSAT with information he may not have.

Good luck!

We had a minor setback yesterday. I've been having trouble getting our savings into my account. Previously, I have just written checks but I'm trying to set up electronic transfers and they aren't working properly. Anyway, since there has been a lag he told me yesterday he needed to be named as the beneficiary on my solo account, he was not comfortable with taking our life savings if he couldn't access them in the event something happened to me. He told me this on the phone at work.

It was more his tone and attitude that set me off. I wanted to rail at him, say you have already confessed to blowing almost this amount of money, which means it is likely much more, if you were a real man you would just give it to me up front, no questions asked and say I can do whatever I want with it. But I didn't, I said we could discuss it at home. And that currently the beneficiary of my account was my sister, it's not like it was totally inaccessible. I think that really hurt his feelings.

But I kept it together, and was very 180 when he got home. He brought me all the documentation I had to get from him for the post nup, asked me about how he wanted him to pay for the course, etc before broaching the subject. Again, the tone was not the best, and I told him to tread lightly. Then I asked what was his concern about it, why wasn't my sister listed enough. He said my sister was out of state so that could make it more difficult to get the money in an extreme situation where I was dead/dying. <rolleyes> Reiterated he did not need access to the account, just needed to be the beneficiary in case something happened to me. I reluctantly agreed, but between you and me I am not making it a priority to get down to the bank and change it. And then later when I said I was just taking the bulk of it, not all of it, he was visibly less stressed.

IDK, it's probably a control thing and not so much a money thing. I had considered, before talking to him in person, saying I'd be happy to do it AFTER I had finished reviewing all our records to ensure there isn't MORE stuff I didn't know about. I finished looking at all the records I can instantly access today, and there was nothing, so I'm glad I didn't.

The main thing from this exchange is I'm worried now he is going to fight me on the spousal support for the post nup. He wants me to run the budget numbers and prove what I need if we split households (on top of child support, assuming the estimate for that is correct). I want to get the maximum I could reasonably expect if I went to court and divorced him, and the child support court estimate (which we are both ok with). Those numbers together are higher than he would want to pay. SO I'd have to figure out how to present it so it looks like a good/fair deal to him. Any suggestions on that front duly appreciated.

P.S. He's a lawyer--he knows all of this.

But yeah, totally a control thing and him being a lawyer makes it worse, LOL. But having observed others close to me what happens when you suddenly lose a spouse/parent and trying to get the money to pay for things, I know what he is talking about as well.

If you want to know why I was so on the ball from the beginning, I read this thread early on before I started taking action:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=235051

I mentioned in a previous post how I took the time to explain my boundaries and consequences in a specific manner as guided by a post by Serj. This is that thread:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851

I mentioned in an early post a thread that gave me guidance on surveillance prior to having enough posts to see Investigative Tips. That thread is here:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=401810&HL=31671

HTH.

Like I said before, this is the emergency fund, it is not an excessively large amount of money at all. So it seems silly to make it more complicated than it needs to be. In all honesty, if it came down to it and he was desperate for cash and I was dead, it's not like he couldn't use the debit card in my wallet if he went looking for it.

But you bring up valid points that I will have to consider. Thanks for that.

So this is where I am at:

I've gotten all the documentation for the post nup that I can myself. I am just waiting on a few things to come by snail mail, ugh. I don't want to meet with the lawyer until I have everything in my hand. And I don't want to discuss alimony/child support specific terms of the post nup with WH until I have all the docs, so I can be ready to file immediately without hesitation regardless of the outcome of that discussion.

I have the bulk of our emergency savings (AKA our only savings, LOL) in the account in my name only. I have not switched the beneficiary on that account yet. The streets around that bank are under major construction, so it is a PITA to go there. WH hasn't asked about it again, so I'm going to let it lie until he brings it up again. He's done that to me many times, on purpose and accidentally, so I don't have much guilt about it.

We have our first SA/SAS class this weekend. I'm really nervous.

I'm in the process of figuring out what kind of activities I can do for just me, so I can put the focus back on me. Obviously easier said than done with 3 young kids and a spouse who works long hours. But I'm getting there.

And I'm ANGRY. Angry at what he did, even though there is no evidence he has done anything else since dday. Even though he is meeting my requirements and boundaries, he's minimally meeting them. He's not going out of his way. I feel like he really doesn't appreciate the gift he's been given, that he should be kissing my butt and he's not. But what can I do, he's doing what I asked for. Ugh.

This sucks.

Yay. Something positive, LOL.

About the anger... I think mine is settling there too. We are in a similar time frame. I mean, do I want to wait around the next 20,30,40 years of my life wondering if and when he will slip?!?! and frankly, for men who visit escorts, it can be once in 5 yrs, and I would never be able to catch that.

DP, I live in a large metro area, so I have a lot of options for therapy, S-Anon, etc. This center has been around a LONG time, the guy who runs it is a expert in the field, publishes/speaks all the time around the country, etc so I am very blessed to have this opportunity. The class is definitely not religion based. We have both S-Anon and SAA here, in multiple locations, so I don't know how religion plays into it. I do know he said today that SA (here anyway) defines sobriety as no sexual activity outside of marriage, so that it could be limited to those that are gay/bi, not married, or have similar issues may not find it the best fit - that implies some religious content to me. We haven't pursued 12 step things yet. I have asked him to go to one eventually.

I need this done. I NEED this done. I know everything appears to be moving in a positive direction but I won't be able to sleep peacefully at night until it is done.

Dropping back in to say good for you & give you a hug. Second thoughts are common for all of us, I'm sure, so don't worry about them too much. You can always kick him out, it's just easier if you already have legal paperwork in place. I'm sure you already know that, but no one here will judge you for getting your ducks in a row before making a major move.

Keep on keeping on, HNF. You're fighting the good fight. Perhaps it's time to begin thinking of other ways to care for yourself? What have you always wanted to do just for yourself, something that feeds your 'soul bank' as UnexpectedSong says? It's very important to honor your inner needs in addition to your legal ones!

~ Sabina

I'm hoping I don't regret that later, LOL. Not because I'm worried about WH, my kids don't handle change in routine well, so my two trips out, plus a visit from my parents, may be their undoing, ROFL.

~ S.

~ Sabina

I made the appointment with the lawyer today for next week. I have not yet discussed the financial terms of support with WH yet. I started to last night, but I was just too tired. I have found I usually get very little resistance on things I want when I catch WH in the right mood. But the flip side is I have to be in the right frame of mind too, in case I need to negotiate. If I feel weak or tired I fold too easily.

I finished the co dependent no more book, which is required reading for the course, and I didn't like it and don't identify with it at all. I reread parts of your sexually addicted spouse by barbara steffens and I identify more with the PTSD angle in that book. I also want to read the patrick carnes followup to out of the shadows about the impact of electronic media on SA, I might buy that today.

Mostly I am trying to keep up with my homelife and get my kids settled. they had a rough transition to school but appear to be doing better now. I think it's no coincidence it's that it is the same time we've started the class and are finalizing the post nup.

First, we went to the second class of the course today. It was the one focused on spouses. I was disheartened to find it was highly focused on co-dependency, and how co-dependency affects spouses of SA in particular. I was hoping for more info on PTSD, and more info on the SA's role in their spouses' recovery. However, I felt like I was in a roomful of codependents and spouses who it took everything in the world to get there, so I didn't feel comfortable speaking my position and asking my questions at the expense of everyone else.

I don't identify with co-dependency at all. I identify with Barbara Steffens view on PTSD in partners of SA. That you have to address that first, whether you are co-dependent or not. Because if you are co-dependent, you will not be able to undo your codependent behavior without addressing the PTSD first. And secondly, if you are not co-dependent, you are someone who was thrown into a SA nightmare, being told you have to admit you are co-dependent, and that your spouse may not be able to support your healing, and you are enabling your spouse's SA, is just about the worst thing you can do to someone who is not co-dependent to begin with. I couldn't have enabled behavior I didn't know was even happening, for example. Perhaps if I WAS codependent, I would have figured out WH was SA sooner, LOL.

So now I have doubts about how helpful the class/program will be for me, because I am not having the issues that co-dependents have, I am doing self care, etc so my PTSD will remain unchecked. I have to find a way to address that it in IC I guess.

Second WH and I had a discussion about him not being supportive enough, that he's acting like his life doesn't have to be different, etc. That I am in severe pain due to the PTSD and need more support on all levels. It was moderately successful but we will have to have it again I'm sure.

Third, I told him we had to have the financial discussion prior to my lawyer visit Wednesday. So he knows it is coming.

Long long day. Sigh.

Remember that the financials are "business"... not personal or emotional and they must be accurate. He may have "secret" accounts that he doesn't want to disclose. A credit report can help with that sometimes.

Good luck. Stay calm, classy and clear-minded. You're doing very well, all things considered!

But I feel like I learned a lot at our version of SA 101. I think you take what applies and leave the rest. You are acting in an incredibly strong way, with all your proactive financial plans. Don't neglect the emotional HNF. She needs TLC, and unfortunately can't get it from an active addict. PM me if you need to. You listened to me when I needed a hug. I'll be happy to reciprocate.

ScaredyKat, I hear ya and thank you. I didn't elaborate before, and you probably know this having btdt and read Steffen's book, but there are many parallels in the symptoms and behaviors in PTSD and co-dependency. The difference is, as I understand it, is the WHY. A codependent snoops on their spouse in an attempt to control the spouse's behavior. A PTSD snoops because they are trying to survive, and know they can't control a person but they can control their environment. So the PTSD snoops because they need to find out the scope of the spouse's behavior, since they obviously can't trust the spouse to tell them. They do it to find out if they need to be taking precautions to protect themselves and their kids - like finding out if the spouse is into kiddie porn or meeting unsavory people that could find out where you live, for example.

These are the reasons why I have issues with addressing co-dependency first. Why are you trying to tell me I am damaged, have FOO issues, am in denial, are trying to control people, etc and just let go and quit spying when I am trying to find out how much danger I am in? I already *know* it isn't about me and I can't control him. If either were the case SA wouldn't be an issue, LOL.

But I need the support, and I need help with my symptoms and behavior even if they have the "why" wrong, I need the fellowship of other spouses. So I will forge ahead and take what I can from the course. I just hope I don't alienate the others because I'm coming from a different place. After all, we are all trying to get to the same destination.

((((((HNF)))))))))

WH appears to be listening and making some effort. He's taken the kids out twice this weekend "Let's give mama a break." and when I told him I was going to go out for a while today, he said to go ahead and plan on going out every Sunday afternoon, make appointments for massages or whatever, he would watch the kids (and football ) so I could have some me time. And today, he is going to do the dishes. He actually does do quite a bit around the house, but I can count the number of times he's done the dishes in the past year on one hand. So it looks minor but is pretty huge. It's not holding a boombox in the front yard, but it's something.

Wound up talking late into the night about expectations, boundaries, etc. I broke down and cried, I said a couple of things I hadn't said before that rattled him to his core. It wasn't very 180, for sure, but he got to see firsthand some of the consequences of his actions.

He did show remorse, but honestly I don't think he is capable of understanding the gravity of what he's done or what it's done to me. And I told him so. Part of it is fog, part of it is addiction-related. I have to further detach and move forward with my healing without him.

He wants to talk more tomorrow. I told him we had to have our post nup financials discussion too, because I meet with the lawyer this week. I'm not sure if this whole discussion will help or hurt me on that front, or have no effect in all honesty. At this point I don't care. I just want it done.

~ Sabina

[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 8:18 AM, September 26th (Monday)]

I did what he asked, basically laid out a budget I would adopt if we split households, so he could see what I'd need. He could see that I'd have to make some cutbacks and eventually would have to go back to work, even under the best circumstances. I think that gave him some comfort, I guess. I don't know how he thought I'd be able to live high on the hog when we can't even do that now as one household, LOL.

When I told him what I wanted he didn't even bat an eye. He did want to word the parameters of it differently, but the spirit of the arrangement is the same. I'm not about to hash out details like that, because it gives him the illusion of control he wants, and the truth is my lawyer has to hammer out the specifics to make it kosher with our state laws anyway. There is no point in discussing nitpicky specifics if they are not legal, LOL.

I am SO relieved. So now I can go in with my list of needs to the lawyer, and they can flesh it out to make it legal, and we can get 'er done quickly. This will bring me tremendous peace of mind. I told him this was the best gift we could give ourselves, so we could focus on what was really important and not worry about what would happen in a worst case scenario. He agreed.

Of course I can't count my chickens until they've hatched. I am sure when he reads the actual document, he is going to want to edit *something*. Because of his control issues and because that is what he does for a living, LOL. The question is will it be a minor thing, like in last night's discussion, or will it be a major thing he will want me to compromise on. Only time will tell.

I still feel good about it, and that is a really good thing.

~ Sabina

They were very happy to see me. I had a giant tomb of documentation for them, all indexed and labeled, any and every document they could want. WH and I had already agreed on all the general terms of the agreement, so there was nothing to really negotiate. They were impressed I was able to get him to agree to what I did, and had some ideas for other ways to implement certain aspects of the arrangement that still met the spirit of our agreement. It is possible to include a infidelity clause in our state, so they are going to get back to me on my options for that. And they recommend another firm to follow up with our wills and estate planning so it will reflect all possibilities and things can be expedited quickly in the event of either or both of us passing.

My assignment now, other than a few documents they hadn't previously requested, is to get a PO box so there is a secure way to send me stuff. I actually had looked into it the same week I had set up my individual bank account, but I never followed up on it. Looking back now, I can't believe I didn't already do that. Even in the best case scenario, I still need a place only I can access to get particular mail and packages. I would hate it if, for example, the kids ran out to get the mail as they often do and dropped something. Or if WH saw something he could construe out of context, etc. One of those DUH moments. So that has to happen this week too.

They also recommended I take out a life insurance policy on WH independent of his employer, so that I have control over it. Because he can always change his stuff to whatever he wants, cancel it, etc. but this I could keep in my realm of control. Good point.

I feel empowered. It will take some time to get it all hammered out and final even though we agree on everything, just because of the nature of the beast. But it will give me such tremendous peace of mind. Assuming he doesn't go batshit crazy and wind up in jail or something, LOL, I will have enough money to care for myself the kids until they are adults, and some wiggle room for when they are gone. Whew.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 12:41 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)]

Connfrontation without revealing my sources, resulting in a confession of tons of stuff I had no idea about.
Found SI, thank God, to give me direction and support in my time of need.
Getting a copy of WH’s credit reports, to verify there were no secret credit cards/accounts I didn’t know about.
Went away for 2 weeks with the kids and did the 180, which resulted in him flying out to meet us because he was afraid I wouldn’t come back.
Full transparency on all email, phone, financial etc accounts.
Read the following books:
Deceived: Facing Sexual Betrayal, Lies & Secretsby Claudia Black
Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Healby Barbara Steffens
Out of the Shadows Third Edition: Understanding Sexual Addictionby Patrick Carnes
Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourselfby Melody Beattie
In the Shadows of the Net, 2nd Edition: Breaking Free of Compulsive Online Sexual Behaviorby Patrick Carnes (halfway through this)
About every bullseye post on SI for newbies, and the entire healing library.
Got a full STD panel and came back squeaky clean.
Made WH get a full STD panel, and he came back clean as well. It is a condition of R that he retests every three months.
Went to a free legal seminar to find out what my legal options were in my new home state, of which I had only lived a year in.
Made an appointment with a lawyer to find out all my legal options, most of which sucked. Decided getting a post nup was my best personal and legal option.
Made a comprehensive list of my boundaries and conditions of R, delivered it the way Serj recommended in a discussion with WH, and got WH’s full cooperation and acceptance of the terms.
Had WH get a vasectomy. Because we are not having any more kids after this.
Opened a bank account in my name, and deposited 3x the amount I suspected he spent on infidelity, which is most of our savings.
Paid off one credit card and made a huge dent in the other credit card in my name. Told him it was a priority now to pay off all debt in my name only.
Got educated on DIY spying and confirmed all my suspicions regarding his past activity, including prostitutes, ED pills, sex-related equipment, etc. to get a understanding of the FULL scope of his infidelity. Also confirmed currently there appears to be NO further activity as he promised. Have the tools in place to verify this should I ever suspect again.
Got a full disclosure of all infidelity activities from WH, which appear to be legit and more or less final through verification in my extensive research. I am prepared to find out more later if needed, but after a certain body count, the impact diminishes IME.
Had four appointments with a MC, who referred WH to a SA specialist. We have since discontinued MC because we need to work on IC first.
WH had extensive testing and was diagnosed as SA at the specialist, but he refuses to fully accept the diagnosis but is willing to continue treatment as my condition of R.
Enrolled us both in a program specifically designed for SAs and their spouses and have been to the first two sessions. This was not a condition of R, he volunteered.
Compiled all the documentation needed for the post nup (which is extensive), got WH to agree to my terms, and have delivered all the necessary info to my lawyer. Which includes full custody of our kids, paying estimated child support immediately, and significant unconditional spousal support for life.
Exchanged two trips WH planned to take on his own pre-dday for trips for ME. Both of which I am going on in the next month.

You’d think that would be enough in three months since DDay. But no. I still have to:
Find a CSAT for MY individual therapy. I’m seriously a basket case now from putting it off so long.
Get rechecked for STDs six months after the last test.
Complete the course, which has a spouse group therapy component.
Follow up on WH’s agreement to check out a 12 step program, and enforce consequences if he doesn’t.
See the post nup agreement to completion.
Try to get my life back and the focus back on me, because doing all the above and taking care of our kids has taken ALL of my time until now.

No freaking wonder I am completely exhausted and mentally drained.

I know it still sucks..to think this is where life took you (us) but it is now reality and you took the bull by the horns and shook it down.

(hug)

Thanks, donotlietome. I just hope I still want him when there has been enough time to address our individual issues.

It just sucks all around. I can't do a thing about him, only me and my environment. He can decide to accept he's an addict, or not. He can address his issues in therapy/treatment/12step, or not. He can put forth 200% in getting my trust back, or not. I really don't have any say in any that at all. All I can do is remind him I am only committed to waiting a year from dday before making any drastic life-altering decisions.

And the truth is he won't regain my trust in a year, even if he did everything right. He certainly won't be in full recovery in a year, at the rate he's going. It's not likely he's going to see all his issues objectively and thus be able to address them effectively in a year's time. He has this sinking feeling no matter what he does, it's not going to be enough, and he's probably right, he just doesn't have it all spelled out in his head yet.

And God knows what I will be like in a year. I've got some severe trauma to work through. I have severe trust issues now with anyone and everyone to work through. I have anxiety out the wazoo and physical problems that have to be addressed as a result of the stress and lack of enough self-care. I have to totally re-examine the way I parent, because you can't learn about all the FOO issues that factor into infidelity and SA without thinking about the way you parent your own children. And my children are suffering from what has happened, even though they don't really understand what is going on. I need to remedy that as best I can.

I've got a lot on my plate. In all honesty whether or not our M survives is not first and foremost on my mind.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 11:34 AM, September 29th (Thursday)]

One question, and I know I asked before but how is the deliverence of the boundaries you mentioned? (Serj's?)

I feel strange telling him the consequences in list form because I feel like Im talking to a kid that way, Boundaries I can do but consequences not so much (unless its the ultimate one). I may make a separate post on this also.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851

It took me a really long time to deliver all my boundaries this way, but WH really appreciated it. You might try just doing one boundary with your spouse this way, to give you practice on your delivery and get an idea how he responds to it. I think it's possible to do all the elements in a different order as long as you do them all, if he responds to it better, for example.

It just tremendous in making you sound sane, logical, delivering the message in a place of love, etc and not a crazy revengeful bitch hellbent on controlling your spouse and making his life a living hell, LOL. Or that you are his mommy.

Since dday, I have been to the dentist for the first time in years. I had a filling almost come out, and I made an emergency appointment to get it fixed. One of WH's coworkers, she gave me a list of every medical person I could ever need (except psych help, LOL) when we moved here, and all her recommendations have been spot-on fantastic, tremendously capable people. So I have total faith in this dentist because of her track record with everyone else she's recommended. Yet I've never actually *met* this coworker.

Anyway, I went and he did not like what he saw. He said the (white) filling probably looked good at installation, but it was of poor quality and not installed well. That's why it only lasted five years. There was significant decay under it, to the point that he said most dentists would just say root canal and call it a day. But he was going to try to save it. He couldn't promise anything but he'd try. And whenever the filling he put in outlived its usefulness (because they don't last decades usually and I plan to live a long time LOL) I would definitely have to have a root canal. So I told him to put a silver filling in there so I could put that off as long as possible. He laughed and said, I don't want to be the guy that puts the first silver filling in your otherwise beautiful teeth. But he did, and he was able to save it, barely.

He also looked at my xrays and said that it was really interesting. From external view, my teeth looked really good. But the xrays told another story. There was significant decay and damage in multiple places you could not see, but boy could you see it on the xrays. Under my couple other substandard fillings. Between teeth. At the gumline but inside my mouth. All of it fixable but had to be done carefully and fairly soon before the damage was critical. If I wanted to, he could do it all in a half day appointment if it was too hard for me to make multiple ones, but he really recommended just doing an hour at a time until it got done, because he could give each problem the attention it needed and maybe not have to do as much damage control in the long run.

All this occurred over two appointments, the first emergency one and the second regular full exam. WH has happy to drop everything to watch our youngest so I could get the emergency work done, was less than thrilled to do it the second time for the regular exam, and was pissed off and not very pleasant when got the appointment time wrong (it was 45 minutes later than I thought) and it ran long. Why don't I have a babysitter in place for this stuff, he said. I can't just drop everything indefinitely when you have a problem.

Such a good metaphor for my life. Everything looks good on the outside, but it's all rotten on the inside and in dire need of treatment. The previous fillings that are failing are from a dentist WH told me was fantastic. I can trust a total stranger more than him for my personal welfare, apparently. But I still have to rely on him to get the help I need, even if indirectly. WH is more than happy to help me when I need triage, but less than supportive for the general maintenance of my healing. And to fix my issues, I can go with baptism by fire but it won't be the best course of action. I have to be patient and take it slow so everything is done correctly, the first time, so I can save as much of me as I can. And I need to get outside help to do it, because WH isn't able to do it and I can't do it alone.

Ugh. Reality bites.

My parents have been visiting for a week. They don't know. They have been spending time with the kids and letting us have some kid-free time.

We actually spent a night away from home in a nice hotel. I was afraid I would trigger out since that's how you generally hook up with hookers, but I was so excited to actually go out someplace nice, sleep eight hours straight, etc that it wasn't a real problem. I still have mind movies and think about his infidelity several times a day, but it doesn't always send me into a faunchfest like it used to. We were able to go out and reconnect and have a good time. It was nice.

I will recap the last class in a future post, I can't get into it until after I drop the parents off at the airport. The good thing is I really liked the therapist who presented the last class and I am going to contact her for my IC.

I still need to get a po box and submit a few straggling docs to the lawyer. I'm going to miss the next class because I am going out for a girls' weekend. I try to do this at least once a year, and I really need it now more than ever. I'm pissed I have to miss the class about relapses, but if they had told me their stupid syllabus beforehand I could have moved the weekend to another date. But WH is going and has promised to take copious notes.

I just keep on swimming, like Dory says, LOL. T guess since it's only been three months I am probably still in shock, but it is what it is.

The therapist I liked still hasn't called back. I'd call again but I'm heading out for my girls' weekend tomorrow, and I don't want her calling during that.

WH told me last night his CSAT called him to follow up on a therapy plan. He has not talked to the CSAT at all since the appointment I went to with him. I reminded him that they are going to cover that in the class in two weeks, so that's probably why. WH said he needs to think about it some more, decide if he wants to continue with this CSAT or go with another one, and that he needs to check out the SA/SAA/RAC groups to see if they might work better. I don't see it happening soon since I'm leaving for the weekend - managing our three kids solo is challenging at best, LOL. But at least he has acknowledged he needs to do it. Only time will tell if he really does it.

I opted for every test available to me:

herpes simplex i and herpes simplex ii

atopobium vaginae (bacterial vaginosis)

clamhydia trach by multiplex pcr

GC by multiplex pcr (gonnorea)

various bacterial STD infections:
ureaplasma by multiplex pcr
mycoplasma genitalium by multiplex pcr
trichomonas by multiplex pcr
gardnerella by multiplex pcr
mobiluncus mulieris by multiplex pcr
mobiluncus curtisi by multiplex pcr

Various yeast tests:
c. tropicalis
c. krusei
c. dubliniensus
c. glabrata
c. parapsilosis
c. albicans

Blood test for HIV and syphillis.

Pap smear for HPV.

And WH went to Planned parenthood and got the HIV, syphillis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, and herpes tests. I don't know that all the other tests are available to males but I'm pretty sure most are not.

As far as I know, those are all the tests you can take. So if you want an exhaustive list, here it is LOL.

So I had my girls weekend. Whee! Boy did I need that. Got to indulge in food and shopping and sleep late and not worry about kids, etc. WH held down the fort and from my surveillance, only went where he said he went with the kids, behaved, and even checked out various 12 step groups and such on the computer. He took notes on the class I missed, but I haven't had a chance to read them yet. I think he got a glimpse of single dadness and it kicked his but, ROFL. He was very happy to see me when I got home, that's for sure.

The therapist also called me while I was on the weekend. So that's good, I can still get on her calendar and perhaps she can do weekend appointments too since she actually called on a weekend. I didn't try to call her back, as my friend I was out with still doesn't know, and I didn't want to spoil my weekend with worrying about infidelity any more than I had to.

I still had some swirling vortex of thoughts moments on my weekend, but I am learning to manage them better. WH let his phone run down, and fell asleep (not uncommon on a night when he is primarily responsible for the kids, LOL), and when I couldn't reach him it gave me some minor panic. He asked me later why I didn't just call his work cell, and I told him it wasn't MY responsibility to gain trust in him. I wouldn't have been pissy about it if he had just said, oops, sorry, I didn't do it on purpose *first* instead of pushing back on me, but of course he didn't.

So this week I need to finish the straggly docs for the lawyer, connect with the therapist and get an appointment on the calendar, and catch up on the class I missed. Then I need to get prepared for WH to go on a three day business trip without going bonkers. It is way too soon from dday for him to be doing this, but this is a trip that cannot be avoided. Ugh.

He told me he what had changed on the itinerary and who else was now going/not going. He asked for me to list his ground rules and my expecations. He said I want you to be comfortable with this, what can I do to make you comfortable with this.

Since I was exhausted, I didn't really mince words. I said I and *NOT* comfortable with this, not at all. It's too soon from dday for you to be taking a trip like this. But I know you have to go, so we will work through this together. And he held me tight and thanked me.

I told him to just send me his agenda each day, and to text me as much as feasible as he moved on from each activity - mainly so I wouldn't try to call him during a bad time. He offered to send pictures, but since I don't know this place it's not worth blowing up my phone with pix I don't have context for. He's going to keep receipts, etc. He feels bad they didn't give him enough notice for us to have tried to arrange for one of our parents to be here so I could go too.

But honestly what does it matter. Like I said, it's easy to sneak off, and it's easy to have a hooker in his hotel room anyway. It's easy to say he is in a meeting when he is not. I can GPS him but I don't know this area and like I said, he could be where he said he'd be and still be doing something bad. Hell, I could have gone with him, and go off shopping or for a massage when he said he had a meeting and have a hooker in our room.

I can't stop it if he decides to stray. I can't put up enough surveillance to catch everything. It's just going to take time to build the trust and be able to tell from my gut if something's awry.

Ugh. Not looking forward to this trip.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:16 AM, October 11th (Tuesday)]

~ Sabina

I've been following another SI's story, another spouse of a SA. Her story in many ways is similar to mine, and it breaks my heart. It is so easy for me to suggest to her what to do, but so hard for me to follow my own advice in my situation.

My main problem right now is WH does not want to admit he is an addict. Thus, he wants to be able to pick and choose his treatment. He admits there are issues that need to be addressed, but he wants to address them on his own terms. Not at the expense of not meeting my boundaries, mind you, but he wants to remain in control of his destiny, so to speak.

First, for those not familiar with the addiction cycle, this is totally normal. It's called a "dry drunk" phase. They think because they *can* quit (at least for the time being) they must not really be an addict. It's a sort of rite of passage many addicts have to go through before they can accept reality and/or hit rock bottom. It's totally frustrating for anyone on the outside though, because it's like watching your kids learn the hard way to how not to do something.

Anyway. So here's the dilemma:
He is remorseful as he can be given his addiction status. It kills him to see what pain he has caused me, although I don't think he is capable at the moment to truly appreciate the scope of the betrayal.
He accepts responsibility for what he has done and makes no excuses for it. He owns his shit.
He is willing to be transparent and have no secrets. He's willing to accommodate my need to verify what he does or says as needed. He'll call when I ask, send pictures, etc.
He respects my boundaries and requirements. He wants to try to do whatever he can to make me feel safe and regain his trust.
He accepts he is broken and needs to be fixed, and is willing to do the work to fix himself, support my healing, rebuild the M.
These are all good things.

However he does not accept that he is an addict, yet. He sees he has significant relevant issues to SA, but does not feel he is a true SA. And therein lies a really big problem.

He can't do the work to fix himself, support my healing, rebuild the marriage until he can admit he is an addict. He can try, and maybe even make *some* progress since he admits there is a problem, but he will never truly recover and be able to R until he can fix the source of his problems. And he can't do that without admitting he is an addict.

So I have to figure out what do I do if he never accepts it. And how long do I wait? What role do I want to play, if any, in getting him to see the light? Because on one hand, I don't want to leave without feeling like I did everything I could to save the M, and the father of my kids. But at the same time I can only lead a horse to water, can't make him drink. Any effort doing this takes away from putting my focus back on me and my healing. And to make matters worse, any person off the street or non-CSAT therapist would probably wonder why everything that has occurred thus far isn't enough and to just wait for the trust and safety I will surely feel in time.

Sucks.

And how long do I wait? What role do I want to play, if any, in getting him to see the light?

How long do you wait? Until he 'accepts' the diagnosis & starts treatment in earnest, you mean? Only you can determine the answer to that. Truly. My SAWH told me last December (6 months after diagnosis) that he isn't an addict of any type. It took me several months to really believe him. It has been ten months since he first said that to me & I'm planning to S as soon as I can support myself & our DS. See my profile for details.

I'd advise you not to do anything about pushing him along. Enforce whatever boundaries you've set. I say that only from personal experience. I spent months trying to 'help SAWH along', which, in my case, is co-dependent because I was trying to fulfill my need for him to step up & deal with everything. Letting go of him & his shit as I can while I'm living here has been the best thing for me. I'm still angry and frustrated with SAWH and I still struggle to enforce boundaries with him. But I know I'm doing the best I can & I'm actively working my program and my plan. So- work your plan & get healthy. He'll have to move along at his own pace.

~ Sabina

[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 7:44 AM, October 12th (Wednesday)]

Also I have had a reality check today. It has been brought to my attention how easily WH can do anonymous hookups. I mean, I knew that he'd have to go underground and go that route to continue to act out, but I had it in my head it took some effort and planning. Nope, not really. If he already knows where he can go, he can go any time. He wouldn't even need an untraceable app to do it, and of course he could do it that way too.

WH leaves for his trip today. It's going to be a long week.

"I could have missed the pain, but I would have had to miss the dance." Garth Brooks

I'm now in a loving, healthy relationship far from the madding XS/O.

I reread the whole thread today. Got me back on track to remember what I forgot to do and to remind WH how long it has been since I made certain requirements clear. He's called me twice already trying to be helpful, but I got so many other things to do IDK I'm going to have time to worry about him today.

He told me while I was gone on my trip, he found three different 12 step groups not terribly far away. He wants to go to each one once to get a feel for them, since they can vary so widely. And he said he'd probably just go back to his CSAT at least once to get a treatment plan established, because it would take too much time to start over with a new one. I reminded him he could have his diagnosis tests sent anywhere to speed up the process if he wanted a different therapist, but I think he thinks once the plan is in written up it would be easier to switch then if he wants. My guess is it is all going to depend largely on how the CSAT handles the next session if is switches or not.

He then launched into how he couldn't commit three hours a week to 12 step, etc, not knowing I haven't had a chance to read his notes from the last class yet. Evidently people that go at least that much have a better chance at recover than those that go less, go figure. I told him he's already in the weekly class, and needs to go visit his CSAT for his plan, and check out the 12 steps in the next month, that's plenty to focus on right now.

So now I guess I better go read the notes on the class. Because who knows what else I'm missing.

I've looked at the notes from the class about relapses. In all the classes thus far, they've had a powerpoint presentation with lots of bulletpoints and graphs, and they send home the thumbnail handouts so you don't have to take copious notes. But WH was to take notes on anything that was not covered in the handout or not overly obvious from the notes.

Two things stand out that he wrote in addition to the rest of the stuff already there in print:
The minimum three hour a week commitment to 12 step programs that he mentioned in the phone call.
Then in the parts about how to deal with a relapse, what the procedure was (go to your sponsor, go to your 12 step group, talk it out and make a plan), was "Does your spouse want to know?" In two places. Basically stating that it is the spouse's choice to know whether relapse has happened, and they don't really play a key role in it anyway whether they are. I need to talk with him further about this to make sure I have the context right, but that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

This scares me. Why? Because:

He's not willing to make the time commitment to ensure maximum chance at recovery. Yes, three hours is a lot of time, but not compared to the time he spent acting out. Granted, his acting out time was a whole lot more flexible, but he could do weekends, late nights, etc in 12 step crap. It's possible I just need to say this for him to reconsider, but frankly I am tired of being Captain Obvious. He needs to be taking charge of his own stuff.

I'm not surprised at the reduced role of the spouse in a relapse situation. What bothers me is that he wrote it twice. Without any real explanation or effort at context. It's possible he thought it would be easier to explain verbally, but to me it just looks like he's trying to tell me I shouldn't want to know, I have the option and should take it. I'm trying really hard not to take this personally or read stuff into this that may not be there, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's cueing my gut.

Ugh.

SLIPS Very common, to our dismay. And they feed the trauma in our souls. On one hand, we need there to be open transparency, so we want to know about them. On the other, they destroy us, at least for awhile. It is our decision to know or not. And our decision to impose the consequences for those slips.
But ultimately, he needs to deal with the slips with a sponsor and his IC. Because YOU CANNOT be his accountability partner.
If it helps in any way, my SAfWH felt the same way about meetings, disparaged those he called "addicted" to meetings. For the record, he went to 2 a week, sometimes only one, sometimes none when our schedule was crazy. But we were either attending the SA ed course or he was going to see his IC or we were going to a monthly "couples" meeting, so some recovery work was done several times a week. My SAfWH whiteknuckled it for a long time. Still hasn't accepted the first step because he can't get to the "higher power" thing in his head. And won't accept that he's powerless. His slips prove to me that he is, so he needs his fellow SAs but he, addicts, are so smart, they need no one. Go Figure. It's why you got here in the first place, dimwit. He's getting there. Baby steps. Progress not perfection.

His slips have all been accessing stuff on the internet in an anonymous way, that is, no chat rooms or messaging or that. What I know of. Could be more. My gut says no. It has progressively gone from PORN to semi porn, to attractive sportswomen, LOTS of them. So, unlike his addiction, it has lessened in intensity. It's all a slip, a way to escape the anger and not FEEL, and because of his history it still SCARES ME TO DEATH.

So yeah, slips, probably inevitable. It's how he and you and sponsors deal with them that determine the next step. But you and I don't have any control over whether or not they happen. You have done a phenomenal job of setting boundaries, protecting your interests etc. Now it's up to him to heal himself. You can't do that. ((((((((HHNF)))))))))

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 5:55 PM, October 13th (Thursday)]

I really don't give a rats' ass specifically how many hours he spends in therapy/12 step. You go as much as you can, as much as you need, to get 'er done, KWIM? Whatever helps and shows progress. What I resent is the immediately finding excuses he can't do it because it would take so much time, etc. The approach, the wording of it. Not, wow, that's a lot of time, I'll see what I can do but instead there is NO WAY I can do three hours, never. Whatever. More of the dry drunk thing I guess. Fog talk, IDK.

And again, I totally get the role of the spouse in the relapse thing, leave it to the pros is always best. Like I said my second point of what he wrote sticks out because he didn't add a whole lot of notes to begin with, but this he put twice. Why? I won't know until he gets back to explain it to me. It could very well just be part of the way the presenter gave the info, or it could be a subconscious way of WH telling me to back off. Or wanting to protect me. IDK. WTH.

Perhaps I am trying to seek control where there is none to be had. IDK. I think probably a lot of it is just plain old BS rage, where we don't understand why someone who would do something like this to their spouse wouldn't want to to move heaven and earth to fix what they did. Why is their any hesitation or resistance at all? How can they live with themselves with any less, LOL. Remember I'm still less than four months out, there is still a lot of pain here. It clouds judgment and expectations for sure.

Take a break from all the CRAP once in a while like you did with your GFs. You need it, you deserve it, and your family will continue to have their wonderful HHNF with them for years to come.

Kudos (and hugs) to you.
XXSK

And I appreciate your experience. No doubt I am headed in the same direction. Ugh. They have both the WS and the SA handbook to guide them, don't they.

We had a funny discussion about the higher power element of 12 step when we first discussed it. He takes a similar position, doesn't believe in it and he should be responsible and not powerless over his actions. My take was when the problem is bigger than you, and you can't fix it, you ARE powerless over your actions whether you believe in a higher power or not. I told him at that time I didn't give a shit if he admitted he was an addict, just admit that the problem was bigger than him and he can't fix it alone. He should try 12 step because you have to try everything when the chips are down. He could "pray" to the bottle of ketchup in our fridge when they went into the higher power stuff, whatever, just take whatever he could from it to make progress in an otherwise unsolvable issue. It was so not funny at the time, but I have a way with words and examples when I get riled up and it is funny in hindsight.

I'm buying a passive gps logger today, as I have untraceable means to do it. I'd only get to check he logs once a week at most since it's passive, but it would point out if he goes anywhere other than the house or work. That will keep me in the loop if a problem arises but keep me from obsessing about it and spending time I don't have, LOL. I don't feel like there's any problem right now, but since I know relapse is a reality, not a possibility, I want to be prepared.

This past weekend our sitter canceled and I had to go to our class alone. WH watched the kids since I missed the last class. It was a really good class that covered key points in achieving recovery from SA, and key info for spouses, and it also addressed briefly on the spiritual component of 12 step and addiction recovery, which is a sticking point for WH. I will expand on all these points in a future post.

I also got a passive keylogger and am tracking myself this week to see how it works. So far, despite it being not particularly user-friendly or intuitive, it's working well even from inside my purse in my house. So I have that if I ever feel I need it, since it's not tied to a subscription or anything. It's much more fun to track myself and learn all the features/issues at my own pace instead of under duress trying to track someone else.

However, a stomach bug has hit my house so that puts a lot of things on hold. Just didn't want to have a big time lag in my posts not accounted for, since I'm using this as my personal reference as time goes on.

So he basically said, households that do not have a religious or spiritual component in their family and routines have trouble with battling addiction. This is because the parents have no higher authority/power to answer to, the buck stops with them. This is not bad in and of itself, until said parents are struggling with making good choices and behaviors, they have no one/thing to hold a standard to other than their own compromised judgment.

So he said that what works for many that do not subscribe to religion or traditional spiritual practices in their family, is to think of God/higher power as G.O.D. - Good Orderly Direction. So you have a standard to compare to outside yourself. Is what I'm doing, what I'm believing, feeling, reacting, etc in compliance with Good Orderly Direction in my life and the other lives affected? This can be your "higher power". To me, this is not unlike the Ethics classes taught in business school, there are questions you can use to determine if what you are doing is ethical, you can adapt these kinds of questions for Good Orderly Thinking to make it easier for you to determine if you are acting in accordance with the G.O.D. directive.

To DH, this is just another way of saying WWJD? Which is sad. I told him he needed to open his mind. I told him I know he wasn't really ready to take this course now, but I appreciated that he was trying to anyway. I told him that I understood that he felt HIS definition of Addict and the concept of control of his actions did not exactly match the specific wording of 12 step. But but if he would just step back, and understand he does accept he has a problem, and that he needs help do fix it and cannot do it alone, that in and of itself is in the spirit of the program. That he needs to quit arguing the details and not seeing the forest for the trees. He needs to let go and let the program take him where he needs to go. The rest will follow.

He reluctantly agreed, and said he still was going to try the three different flavors of 12 step available in the area to see which one fit him best. Not only are the founding organizations different, but then the local interpretation/mix of people are different so he wants to find one that speaks to him.

I post this not only to record our struggle, but also because so many others are reluctant to try 12 step because of the religious component. Here is my take on it. Faith, by definition, is believing in something you don't have conclusive evidence in. To experience growth, healing, pretty much anything positive you need to have faith that something will work even when you aren't 100% sure it will. You are surrendering to the unknown, hoping for the best, in order to hopefully better yourself. You don't have to believe in God to do that. You just have to have FAITH in something other than yourself. To me, that is a higher power. And that is all you need to begin 12 step, or in anything in life really.

But I also could be talking out my ass because I've never been to a meeting. Yet. Take this with a grain of salt.

Your WH is an IDIOT! Sorry, but I just had to say that. I think I might be kind of in love with you at this point. LOL

Anyway, hugs to you and thank you so much for taking the time to share here. You are helping others more than you know. I hope you are getting as much as you are giving.

*smooch*

This is my totally unqualified answer: they have to. Otherwise they can't live with themselves. It's a defense mechanism. It's possible that deep down subconsciously they understand on some level, but in general awareness they can't. It's a matter of self-preservation. And that compromises their ability to see the aftermath and effects of what they have done.

I'm not saying this to justify their behavior. It is what it is. They do it, subconsciously, so they don't shoot themselves in the face. It sucks. You didn't cause it, can't control it, can't fix it. But it affects you nonetheless, and way worse than it does the WS. I'm not saying that they often go through their own personal hell when they face their demons, if they ever do, but they have to *choose* to do that. We don't get to choose as BS to get the shit sandwich.

I also didn't force him to go to this class. He chose to. I told him I was going regardless, even though it was geared at couples. Even though it was expensive, it was cheaper than going to individual and group therapy a la carte - for either of us. So I'm not sure if he went just because I was (and that could be to keep tabs on me, for all I know LOL), because it was cheaper, because it meant he didn't have to go see the CSAT that made him mad for the time being, or what. IDK, and it doesn't matter.

The truth is he's NOT ready to get the full benefit of what this course/program has to offer. Just like he's not really ready to get any significant help from 12 step. He will likely have to do it again. And I'm ok with that. He will learn more than not going, he will likely make progress he otherwise would have not made. Whether or not I'm still around when he takes it again, or starts going in earnest, or whatever the future holds, remains to be seen. I can only focus on MY stuff at the moment.

I fully admit I'm not being as hardass as I want to be. First, because it wouldn't do much except in the spirit of 180, and I've already got a lot of what the 180 does for you going on already. Second, because the post-nup is not finalized. There is really no point in kicking a hornet's nest when that is at stake. Chances are my boundaries/requirements will change after that is finalized, and mostly like will at the year mark as well. SI tells me I will be more pissed off then in year two. Can you only imagine what that means will happen then?

I randomly found a copy of the 5 Love languages at the library, and am reading it. We haven't done the tests or anything, but I'm fairly certain I know what his are and read the parts about how to communicate better with someone who speaks those languages. He doesn't fit Touch and Gifts in the typical manner, of course he has his own weird spin on it, but those are his. I never really saw the Touch side because outside of sex he was not overly affectionate person, and I never saw the Gifts side while he likes to give gifts,he is very inconsistent about doing it and he's not good about receiving them. I've changed how I approach stuff and say stuff to him accordingly, and saw a big difference. So when I get on my long plane ride Saturday I plan to read up on the stuff that applies to ME, since I won't be interrupted 17 times by needy little people.

So I am going on a trip with my FOO to do some volunteer work, which my sis does for a living. I'm so looking forward to it, time away from WH and my kids always gives me clarity and perspective and allows me to actually miss and appreciate them. It will be the last trip/big ME thing I will get to do until the end of the year. So that is why I won't be posting for a while, I'll be gone - but doing good things for ME.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 11:35 AM, October 20th (Thursday)]

My keylogger is good for catching keystrokes, not so good at catching web addresses. I have to look at the web history, assuming it's not been compromised, to see where he's been going. I hadn't checked in a while because I'm trying to back off that shit. I checked today because I saw a facebook comment that didn't jive. I couldn't really figure out that, but I saw that he'd been looking at a LOT of inapropriate pix. Not real porn, but bare butts, girls in their undies, provocative poses, etc. My boundaries were very clear, nothing remotely suspect, because I would be checking up and I didn't want anything the kids couldn't see while I was doing it. And obviously, in the course they elaborated on abstinence from this stuff for obvious reasons.

I called him at work, on his private cell, told him to shut the door. Told him I had seen the web history and was very disappointed. That there was a huge breach of trust. My boundaries and requirements compromised. And that there would be consequences. And we'd discuss it at home later. He said nothing. I said his response told me volumes. He said he couldn't discuss it at work. Like he couldn't say I'm sorry or something vague that was affirming for me.

WTF. Now I have to decide what the consequences are. Because it honestly doesn't matter what he says or does as a result of being busted. There have to be consequences. IDK what to do. Make him sleep somewhere else? Suspend his computer access? I could change his and my password on the computer so he couldn't use it, but then he could use his phone or work laptop and I couldn't track it. Not that he isn't probably going to do that now he's busted, while I am gone.

I have a fallback in my pocket, the ultimate response to a betrayal for him. If I took off my wedding rings, it would hurt him to no end. I do not have the tremendous attachment to the rings that he does, it really wouldn't affect me. but if I play that card, I've got nothing dramatic left for anything else in the future. This is a serious setback but not a dealbreaker (if he handles it right), yet anyway. So I am hesitant to play that card right now. But I might if he handles it badly.

Any suggestions for consequences? I have told him in the past the types of consequences I would inflict but they were not specific to offenses. Monetary fines that go to *my* bank account, sleeping elsewhere, telling his mom/sister, etc. But I am open to other suggestions.

I guess straight up 180. ignore him as much as possible, without making it weird for the kids. If he doesn't act remorseful for what he has done, take my rings off and leave them out for him to see. There isn't much point in restricting his computer access, he'd drive it underground with other means if he isn't planning to do that anyway - or even if not, the seed is planted and I can't trust him not to at any rate. I don't want to tell his family or use extreme measures until the post nup is done, taking off the rings will be a risk as it is.

I'm pissed off I have to be the bad guy when I haven't done anything.I know the 180 isn't supposed to be punitive towards him, its supposed to be be empowering for me. To step back, removed the focus on him, learn the lesson, etc. But he broke my boundaries and requirements. There needs to be consequences.

Fuck.

I was just thinking about what you said about your rings.

As much as your WH desperately needs to "get it", I don't think taking off your rings to punish/scare him is the right approach. A big part of the 180 is doing things for yourself, and when it comes to the rings I think they should be handled in the manner that is reflective of your heart. Take them off if you think the commitment is broken or you no longer want to wear them. I don't think that taking them off will get the reaction out of him that you are hoping for.

I'm really sorry everything went so shit. You've got some hard choices coming up, because he is definitely not REMOTELY holding up his end of the bargain.

Hugs to you.

I'm going to take the kids out as soon as the olders are out of school. We are going to have a good time. I am not going to tell WH where we are. Answer texts only if I suspect he will call the police or something, LOL, and bring them home at bedtime. Of course now that I've planned that he is probably planning to stay at work until after their bedtime if nothing else to avoid confrontation in front of the kids, but still, fuck him. If it wouldn't be wildly disruptive to the kids schooling we'd stay the night at a hotel and have a slumber party.

He's not remorseful...and this is a huge problem, in mt opinion.

First I want to thank you so much for posting your story. I can relate to all of it. You have a way with words and very articulate, which helps me alot!!

With that said, I am thinking about your situation. What comes to mind is this...why do you have to lay down a consequence immediately?
I think the 180 and your silence on the subject will say volumes at the moment.

I know you want to jump at the first sign of anything but maybe, you should just take the time and think things through.

You could just tell H that you are disppointed in what you found and then silence.
He is expecting you to blow or something so this will throw him off.

I don't know, I am still trying to figure things out from my end so take what you need and leave the rest.

Hope you have a good time away from the mess. I have been taking a break from all the surveilences(sp) I have to say, I am feeling a bit free not to have to playing cop. I know I will have to check again but for now I am feeling okay with not knowing anything.

Good Luck with everything.

So what happened? I took the kids to McDonalds for two hours. It sounds trivial, but if you knew us you'd know it wasn't. My kids rarely get to go there and don't even know what a happy meal is. I got them all happy meals, and let them play, and when the needed rest breaks they did their homework in between. After two hours they were exhausted and ready to go home. I got them settled and WH came home shortly after. He helped put them to bed and immediately sat next to me, instead of our usual waiting a while for them to sleep before we try to talk.

He immediately apologized. He admitted full fault, that what he did was wrong, clearly against my boundaries, etc. He said he was not seeking it (and I already knew that from the internet trail) but he should have clicked away instead of continuing to peruse all the available pages. At the time he wasn't thinking it was more or less porn, and realized after the fact how utterly inappropriate it was and that he would have to tell me. He did not get to tell me right away, stuff happened (which is true) and then he didn't tell me that night because I went to sleep early, and then it was too hard to try to tell me in the morning with all the kiddos around. When I confronted him at work, he panicked and had a deer in the headlights moment and froze. All he knew was what he wanted to say, he couldn't say at work. He realized now there were things he could have said that were more generic to show he accepted guilt and responsibility.

He apologized over and over again. I had taken cheetah's advice, even though I hadn't read it yet. I was quiet, let him talk. He said he wasn't trying to hide it, that's why it was still in the history. Asked me several times to go downstairs and review the entire history going back four months to prove he has otherwise been sticking to my boundaries, which I declined. He said he'd call the CSAT, but because of my trip he would not be able to see him right away, but he'd see him as soon as I came back. That he would go to some sort of 12 step right after I got back, he was pretty sure there was next Friday night. Asked me what the consequences would be, he deserved them. He was clearly remorseful and afraid.

I told him I didn't know what the consequences would be, I'd have to think about it. I had considered having him sleep elsewhere that night, but it was not logistically practical given my trip etc. I told him I appreciated all that he said, and understood where he was coming from. I told him he had destroyed any trust he had worked so hard to build up until that point. That it made me feel like he was not committed to me and my healing, his recovery, our marriage. That I didn't want to check up on him anymore, but when crap like this happens, makes it hard to wonder what ELSE is there I don't know. How each time something like this happens, it's like DDay all over again. How each time something like this happens, it destroys the whole day for me, compromises my ability to be a good parent, and the kids suffer as a result. That our kids deserved better, I deserved better. I really didn't know how long I could keep doing this. That it was bad enough he did it, and he had made it exponentially worse not making it a priority to tell me and handling it badly upon initial confrontation. He poured salt in the wound doing that.

He apologized again. Said he was committed to me, my healing, his recovery, our family, our marriage. He recognized again that he handled it badly, and accepted responsibility for the fallout. Again asked me to go and check the history, to prove he has been fulfilling his commitment until that point, he was not the man he had been for four months in that moment, and it was an honest fall down a slippery slope he wasn't strong enough to recognize was happening in real time. I told him I didn't want to go check, and it didn't matter. Once was too many. Once destroys everything built up to that point.

I told him I hoped this illustrated to him how grave the problem is, how it is bigger than both of us and we needed help. I didn't want to be his accountability partner, he needed to find a sponsor. Which he agreed, he said his first priority was to choose which 12 step ASAP then get a sponsor. He kept apologizing, kept accepting responsibility, kept saying what he'd do, etc. Kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, I guess. But I was not ready to do anything else, and I think what I said was enough for the time being. Told him I was done talking about it today, I had already lost too much time as a result of all this. He asked if he needed to sleep on the couch, and I told him not this time, we had to get as much good sleep as we can to get through the week.

And we spent the rest of the evening like we normally do, talking about what happened in our days, about the kids, what needed to happen to prepare for my trip, watched TV, etc. And then he broke out in hives, which was probably due to the stress because I'm pretty sure he thought I was going to leave him before he got home.

Tonight we celebrate his birthday, which is tomorrow. We take the kids out to a hibachi restaurant, and they've been so looking forward to it. Tomorrow I get on a plane not long after our class, which is the first group therapy session. Unfortunately not a warm beach trip with cabana boys bringing me drinks, LOL, but a trip with my FOO to do community service. Rebuild homes for those that lost everything, something my sister does full time. I will relish the time away, reconnect with my FOO away from my kids and WH, and will be thankful for what I have and that I can help others that have nothing.

Today I have my own challenges. My youngest, who is three, can read. I have finally confirmed it today, he can read phonetically (not just sight read or recognize words off things) just like his siblings did at this age. But the differences is he has access to things they didn't at that age (the computer, the dvr) and can get into a whole lot more trouble than they did back then. The other two, even though they are under age 8, read at such a high level I have to be careful about hiding books/class materials to help me because not only can they infer what the cover says, they would take it off and read it.

I'm a little pissed I can't just enjoy that my kids are brilliant and be proud of them. Instead I have to reconfigure lots of things to protect them from crap as a result of their dad. I can't just relax and focus on whatever it takes for my healing, I have to take measures that what I do for my healing does not inadvertantly traumatize the kids. Ugh.

I'm a bit confused.

You posted:

He said he was not seeking it

I'm on my computer A LOT and none of the inappropriate things your husband was viewing EVER show up on my computer.

I couldn't really figure out that, but I saw that he'd been looking at a LOT of inapropriate pix. Not real porn, but bare butts, girls in their undies, provocative poses, etc. My boundaries were very clear, nothing remotely suspect, because I would be checking up

I really don't understand your husband's explanation about how/why he was viewing this "stuff."

I have tracked him watching these silly news sites before, and while the editorial content has mature content (like the Daily Show), there have never been nasty pix or overt sexual content. But he'd never clicked on links/ads from those sites before to other places before.

So it is similar to when I log into my hotmail, there are always ads for local hookups with singles, etc on the sidebar. I'm assuming WH gets the same ads when he checks his hotmail. But I'm not concerned about him using Hotmail because he never clicks those ads, they aren't a threat. But if he did, then I have whole new concerns to be worried about.

So he's got to decide what he's going to do to prevent that from happening. Because I fully admit I occasionally read stuff on the internet, click links that take me to bad places on accident once in a blue moon but not twice in one day. And I don't keep looking at it. It's going to be interesting to see what his next move is in that respect.

Enjoy your trip - you deserve it.

Okay..so he was not intentionally looking for it but when he did stumble on it..he didn't exactly stop. THAT is where the boundary error is.

I hate the internet for this reason. My kids have done research and had to google things which in a real context is legit but would have porn sites pop up because it could represent something along those lines too.
Blocks had to go on for them but now they are grown and have computers of their own.

I believe my H doesn't use the computer for this stuff because of the troubles we had when the kids were stumbling on it and he saw how crazy and devastating it was to them and how hard it was to get rid of the pop ups, links..once it grabbed on. We had to re-format computer because of that.

Plus I am computer saavy (not an expert) but enough that he knows I would find it.

You know after writing all of this...I am not even sure what my point is!!

Saturday I went to my first group session in the class. It's a great cross section of spouses, we all have been affected in different ways so we get to see perspectives not familiar to us - which is good. Because eventually we see it all, don't we. And it's nice to know you are not alone and have your feelings validated. Looking forward to the rest of the course, since we have seven more classes in this format. I can't really share their stories, of course, but it was interesting to see how SA/infidelity in general manifests in so many different ways for different people, and profoundly affects them all so differently, yet we are all in so much of the same pain, frustration, anxiety, etc.

Then right after the class I went on my trip to join my FOO in building homes in Joplin. My sister is on the design crew of television entity that does this stuff regularly, and this is the first time I've been able to go and see what she does. It was tremendous not only to see her work and see my parents and bond as a FOO, but also just to see what has happened in Joplin. Such mass devastation, it's just really overwhelming to see in person. Makes me grateful for what I have and makes my problems seem a bit smaller now.

WH held down the fort, took care of the kids, etc. but did some of his typical a-hole stuff while I was gone. Didn't ask about my trip at all, made me feel guilty for doing stuff I had asked him to do while I was gone, etc. Came home to a dirty house, not a load of dishes or laundry done for the time I was gone, no food or diapers left, etc. But the kids were fed and taken to school and their activities every day and they appear no worse for the wear, LOL, so I guess it's all good. I mentioned some of his behavior and true to form, didn't receive the info well but then recanted and tried to rationalize and apologize for it later. Whatever. I guess as long as their is forward progress, I won't hit him with a shovel and bury him in the backyard.

Living with someone who is a white-knuckling dry drunk, still not totally accepting their issues and willing to do anything and everything to fix them is draining and frustrating. It's just like the FOG that all WS have, with additional predictable patterns that make our lives living hell. Not that he isn't trying, and that everything that is going on isn't totally normal for his stage in the game, I'm just tired of watching the trainwreck, so to speak. It's kind of like playing Candyland with the kids, LOL, it is such an ridiculously long game for what it actually is, and you are ready to stick a fork in your eye long before the game actually ends.

And while I'm glad to have my group therapy class for now, I'm struggling finding a group for me. I live in a fairly major metro area, I didn't think it would be that hard. I may have to hit up my sistahs at the class, IDK.

Thank goodness for SI. So many people here with similar stories, in varying places of the same plotline. Nice to have your comrads in this battle.

I have been trying out my new toy, the passive GPS logger. It worked great while I was tracking me, LOL. But just like the first time I tried using a VAR on him, I somehow didn't turn the thing on right when I used it on Wh the first time so I got no data while I was away. So I tried it again today, which probably won't give me anything interesting since he's still "ill" but if it works this time, I can verify its accuracy by where all we go this weekend. I like the idea of being able to slap it on the car whenever I get a gut feeling, but not being able to track it in real time so I won't obsess over it.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:36 AM, October 28th (Friday)]

Anyway, we discussed some things, and I made a few decisions to do some things to put myself first more. One lady and I had joked about feeling guilty about buying even generic sodas while our WHs never felt guilt about buying anything for themselves. So I've decided I'm not buying generic sodas any more, only the real stuff for me from now on. Also real cream for my coffee, and not begrudge the occasional treat (this week was toffee biscotti). And I went out and got another haircut finally, new underthings, and supplies to do proper manicures/pedicures at home. Because the end of the year is a time and money crunch for me - in addition to Thanksgiving and Xmas, two of my kids have birthdays before the end of the year. So I want to have stuff to spoil myself at home in case I am short on money and/or time.

Both I and WH found all the 12 step meeting available to us and will be figuring out what nights make the most sense this week. He of course has many more and closer options than me, but we still have to coordinate it so we aren't planning to go at the same times without sitter coverage. I can't count on him to cover me, end of year is the busiest time for him. Which sucks, he has all these meeting options and can pretty much go whenever he wants whereas I have to pick which one of the meetings that are 20 miles during rush hour from me, and arrange for a sitter. Well, at least I have options, I guess. So many don't have any meetings at all or good CSATs anywhere for miles.

I used to cook meals beforehand he could heat up when I'd go, but he'd just take them out or make sandwiches, so I quit. I leave chicken nuggets and such in the freezer and let him figure it out now. And the funny thing is this time, he actually went to the store and bought ground beef, Hamburger Helper, and canned veggies, and fixed it for them. Then posted on Facebook about how he was juggling dinner in the skillet in one hand while managing a billion dollar deal in the other hand via blackberry :rolleyes:, like that was a momentus feat, ROFL. Entitled much? And the kids just looked at it like what the hell is this, LOL.

At least he took them places and did things. Even if it meant he let them tromp their good shoes in the mud in the corn maze, LOL. He could have sat on the couch and texted an AP, or ignored them and watched football, etc, all the stuff you read about other WS's doing.

I only focus what is in the realm of my control. If I want to go on trips away, I can't micromanage what happens while I'm away. It's his house and kids too, he can do whatever he wants while I'm away as long as the kids are safe and fed and the house doesn't burn down. If I were working and going on vacation, I'd likely have more work and messes to clean up when I came back - this is the same thing. I can't let it keep me from taking time for myself.

Ugh. This sucks.

Don't have any real words of wisdom for ya..just want to say I hear you and sending you strength for the day

(Hug)

I have been testing my passive GPS logger on his car, and it works well when I turn it on properly. This is pretty much the only way I have to know if he steps out when he is supposed to be at work, because he works in a secure building and otherwise cannot be tracked other than VAR in the car, which is way too time consuming and wouldn't help if he went to secret places and never said anything, LOL. So now whenever I get a gut feeling, I can just slap that on the car and check on it a week later. No potential to obsess over it or waste a lot of time. If you want to know more about the logger, I started a thread in Investigative Tips (which you need 50 real posts to see).

I am trying to work my schedule to go to a support group for me. While there are five meetings available during the week, three conflict with my kids' activities and two are many many miles away. So this week I'm exploring moving one of the kid's things around so I can go.

So two days ago WH asked me to pick my 12 step meeting so he could be sure not to pick one at the same time, so we never have to skip if we have a babysitting fail. I'm glad he was trying to be considerate but it felt like more stalling. So yesterday I confirmed a new source of childcare that takes dropoffs, so I can go to a daytime meeting instead of a nighttime one that requires driving 20+ miles in rush hour traffic and conflicts with the kids' ever-changing extracurricular activities. And I called the CSAT I like back and told her I have a childcare source that allows me a more flexible schedule, that I don't have to have the same appointment every week.

I had injured my leg yesterday and was in a lot of pain. So when I told WH when he got home, I was handling my stuff and it had no impact on him, do what he needed to do, he could see I was in pain. But probably wasn't convinced it was all leg injury, LOL, so he said he needed to use the computer for 10 minutes then he'd be back up to take care of me. In that ten minutes he compiled all the 12 step meetings reasonably close by (12 to choose from, WTH!), emailed it to himself, and then came back up and told me he'd try one tomorrow, assuming no crisis at work. I asked him when he was going to call his CSAT, and he said he wanted find a 12 step first, he might even go to a different group's meeting this week if it worked out that he could. We shall see if it actually happens.

My leg still hurts today, and I forgot to slap the gps on his car this morning when I had the chance. I really wanted to see if he goes where he says and nowhere else. But maybe it's better this way, I can focus on getting better and not on him.

I'm frustrated. He's trying, but until he gets out of the initial stage, accepts his issues, etc he's not going to make any real progress. I just have to hope that continued exposure to class, 12 step, and IC will knock some things loose in his brain.

And I'm frustrated that the more I read, the more I see that I didn't used to be co-dep but am rapidly becoming one. I am reading How Can I Forgive You now and plan on reading Boundaries of Marriage or whatever it is next. Every book just points out more new characteristics I now have that I don't like. It's rough.

Today I also realized that I may not be able to go to the support group I had hoped to go to on Tuesday because schools are out for election Day. I'd have to find a sitter for all three kids. So now I'm trying to decide between doing that, or going to a different evening meeting I might not be able to regularly attend just for grins. I'm starting to freak out a little at the babysitting costs for us to go to the class and for me to go to IC and a support group. It's something I will have to work through, maybe cut elsewhere to make it work.

WH went to his first 12 step last night. It went well. He wants to try a different group next week. Both good things.

One day at a time.

I hope this symbolizes mercy and compassion, how everyone can potentially succeed given a second chance, etc and not that I'm a big co-dep patsy.

My lawyer called this week and said now is the time to call in the estate planning lawyer to start drawing up our new wills/trusts so they are congruent with our impending post nup. So that is promising. I think that would be the best self-care gift to me, have all that resolved and done.

Am so sorry about the playplace implosions, what a tough day for you! I hear you on the babysitting costs, it's bound to add up fast. I hope you can find the funds elsewhere in the budget. Good news re: wills & the post-nup. I hope SAWH will sign so you have peace of mind.

Have a good weekend~ Sabina

Goodness - I don't believe I've ever seen a BS working so hard at reconciliation...while it seems the WS is just drifting along, trying to figure out when he will/or will not attend a SA Meeting.

I admire your ongoing strength and how patience you are being.

[This message edited by Dare2Trust at 2:50 PM, November 4th (Friday)]

I'm trying to put the focus back on ME. Trying to figure out how to heal myself, how to prepare myself for all possibilities, fix the internal problems I now have as a result of what happened. Maybe fix a few that I have always had that aren't helping me currently. Be a better parent so none of my kids become addicts of some kind too. Or at least not have such a sad, angry, compromised mama every day. They miss their old mama, and I do too.

The do-over went well at the play place today, and I signed them up for a daycamp there on election day so I can attend my first 12 step meeting and maybe have some time to myself during the day.

I realized I didn't post here that WH did actually attend a 12 step meeting. One of the most conservative and secular ones at that, and he liked it fine. Still wants to check out the less conservative and religious ones, but he is on the right path to finding a 12 step home. He's dragging his feet on going back to the CSAT tho. Whatever. We all have to find our own path, don't we.

It's not a barrier to MY progress. And that's what matters.

Had a rough day today. Today in group class I had to own up to a lot of new characteristics and habits I have developed since discovery. I am becoming someone I don't respect or like very much. I want the old me back. I also don't like that I have no real Plan B in place in case the shit hits the fan. So my assignment, other than my real class homework, is to figure out what the heck I'm going to do if it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

Not really what I wanted on my plate, during the first week I attend a 12 step and my first visit with my own CSAT, and my DD's 6th birthday (who is about to explode she is so excited, LOL), but it is what it is. Just keep swimming. Try to enjoy and live in the moment, they will be little only for so long.

My meeting was a good 45 minutes away, and they had an additional optional step work component to it that I chose to attend, so it took 2.5 hours to do both. So it is a minimum four hour commitment for me to do this, but I feel it is so important for me. I have isolated myself enough already in moving here and not setting up a localsupport network, and now with the shame of infidelity and SA showdowing over me it's that much harder to get one going. This is going to be a critical component in MY recovery.

It feels so good to have this option. I wish I had done this sooner. This is such a good thing.

I also talked to my new estate lawyer today. When you do a post-nup, they recommend you align your estate planning accordingly so it works either way if the post nup is enacted or not. Now I need to really think about custody, because in my post nup I get full custody. I'm worried about giving WH full custody in the event of my death. Only because he is not in active recovery, with a sponsor, etc with people in place that could see if he takes a huge turn for the worse. If he does all those things and that stuff is in place, I have no issues. I don't question his ability to parent, he is a good father. I just don't want him to have custody if he is engaging in acting out/illegal behavior/stuff that puts the family at risk. So I need to work that out in my head. Ugh.

What helps me in my situation, and I had to get past the initial intros because that is largely about the SA and not the spouse/partner, is to hear what they share subsequently. Then I saw myself in others. I was highly resistant to the whole co-dependent thing initially, didn't think I was at all. Then I listened to seven other women share their co-dep traits with examples, and I had at least one example in common with each of them. Stupid crap, like I would always buy the generic soda because it was cheaper, even though I didn't like it, while my WH has no issues spending money on whatever he wants and thinks it's ridiculous I do so. It took someone else saying that to realize that's what I do. And now it's a running joke in our group, no one is allowed to buy generic soda anymore. So now I am at least open to the idea I have become co-dependent in these new circumstances, possibly I always was and just got worse when all this came down. At any rate I have a lot of the qualities, they are not conducive to my healing or my health, so I need to address them. I don't know if I would have realized this without the group therapy settin

It's really surprising how you hear other's stories, and think why don't they do X, and then turn that thought inward and think, well, why aren't *I* doing X? Or you hear how someone dealt with something, or how they had an epiphany, and you learn something new, either a new coping tool or mini breakthrough, whatever, how it impacts YOU upon hearing it. Today, one member shared how upon initial discovery she dived headfirst into a new hobby that is easy to go overboard in. I share that same hobby, and also went a bit overboard with it when I started. Guess when I started that hobby? When my WH claims the acting out started. He didn't state that specifically, it happens to coincide with the date. Now I'm wondering if I knew something was up on a subconscious level and I used that hobby as a means of escaping my impending reality. I would not have put that together in IC, I know.

The group leader told me today, she tells everyone to try six meetings before they commit to a group. Not necessarily six of the same group or organization meeting, although they can, but six of any meeting to understand how the process works and see how it plays out in your head over time. I think that's wise. I can already see the difference in my third meeting in my class and the first two. I cannot wait to see the difference in the 12 step, because it's a different format and a different mix of people.

Trying to hold it together. In my previous life I used to have all the Xmas shopping done, presents wrapped, and cards ready to mail by Thanksgiving day. That is so not happening this year. It's hard because since two of my kids have bdays late in the year, I kind of have to coordinate the presents so there isn't overlap.

I just don't know how I'm going to get it all done. The post nup. The estate planning. My car needs servicing and a new key. I have dental work I need done. I need to get all my medical crap done while the deductible is satisfied. And so on and so on. And being classic betrayed spouse, have the attention span of a gnat. Gah!

But at least I have group tomorrow. That's something. IDK, even though everything appears to be better, inside I'm a mess. I've had a lot of things come up to the surface I need help dealing with. Like all of us BS's have from time to time.

Anyway, this IC is a great fit for me and I think I will make a lot of progress and healing with her. It was long overdue.

But someone is going to have to miss class tomorrow, since we still have a sick kid and potentially more to come. I'm thinking he should miss, only because I have missed two classes altogether and he's only missed one. I wish nobody had to miss class, but I wish my little girl wasn't sick either.

I definitely am working through all the feelings that I couldn't have because of all the anger initially. They are just bubbling up all over the place. I'm so lucky I have different areas of support, when this all started I had none. It's really easy to believe in a higher power when this kind of stuff just magically lines up for you.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 2:14 PM, November 11th (Friday)]

I am seeing a slow change in WH's behavior. He is being proactive. He still has his moments of a-holiness, LOL, but they are tempered with many instances of doing the right thing. For example, he told me the other day he clicked on a link I would not approve. Once he realized what it was, he clicked away immediately. Fessed up to it that day, asked if I wanted him to show it to me in the history so I could see what happened, etc. Did not want me to stumble on it myself and not know what happened. So clearly he learned from last time.

When I feel anxious, or sad, or sick, or whatever, I am open about my feelings now. He usually steps up and tries to help, do whatever it is to make me feel better, safe, etc. His last position on his recovery was that the class, the homework, and the weekly 12 step meetings were all he could handle at the moment, and that he planned to resume IC with a CSAT in January when his work schedule died down. I told him fine, but I wasn't interested in pursuing anything physical at all after the sobriety requirement had been completed without the blessing of his IC and mine, and he had a recovery plan done with his CSAT in place. If that meant waiting an extra month or so because of his work schedule, so be it. So the ball in his court now, my boundaries are in place.

In my initial appointment with my IC, she had asked about WH's involvement in 12-step, if any. After I told her he was shopping for a home group, being familiar with all the local groups and with WH's story, she told me she'd save us both a lot of time and told him to go a specific group, that it was the best format for him and the people in it were either just like him or would like him, LOL. And it happens to be the group WH likes best anyway, so he's going to stick with that as his home group and has been going consistently.

I however had to skip my group today, my kid is sick. I'm bummed, I really wanted to go to today, needed to go today. I will make up for it in other ways some how.

My post-nup lawyer has done all she can do now, she's waiting on a document that I am having trouble getting and input from our estate planning lawyer, so whatever agreement we have is executable in the event of our death or whatever. So I met with the estate lawyer this week, figured out everything I need to do to set that up, and WH cooperated surprisingly. He is more of a "let's do a simple handwritten will only" kind of guy whereas I am a "lets do all the stupid paperwork that avoids all the mess that happened when my grandparents were incapacitated a long time and then died" kinda gal. So I have to gather all the documentation for that, which is almost as daunting as when I gathered similar stuff for the post-nup. But it is yet another thing that needs to be done, regardless of what the future will hold, and will bring me great peace so I am ok with it.

Mostly I am overwhelmed. I'm trying to get a lot done, post nup, will/estate, my 12 step, my class, my IC, get back into an exercise routine, eat better, do more things for myself, etc in addition to dealing with all these feelings as a result of what has happened, is happening, what will happen, on top of everything else. But I am not crying every day, having mind movies repeatedly, etc and I'm taking back my life. So in that respect life is very good.

Before you think I'm burrowing in co-dep from all my "sacrifice" LOL, I'm sure WH would have let me go out for Parents Night Out and stayed home with the kids, but I passed out right after the kids went to bed so that didn't happen. And he wouldn't have minded letting me go to class instead of him, but I don't want either of us to ever miss two classes in a row. And he sat out with sick kids last time, so it's my turn. He is going to watch the kids so I can get out this weekend. There aren't any meetings I can go to, but at least I can get away from the madness that is my life right now, find myself again.

Basically I'm going through a lot of textbook BS stuff. WH is doing a lot of things right, is progressing, etc but I just don't know if it's enough. I'm mourning the loss of the M I thought we had. The loss of the best friend I thought I had. But I still have this man in my house that knows me better than I know myself, that loves me and will do anything for me, but I'm not sure I know who HE is anymore. It's hard. It's a lot of stuff to work through.

And a lot of pukey laundry as well. When it rains it pours....

But someone is going to have to miss class tomorrow, since we still have a sick kid and potentially more to come. I'm thinking he should miss, only because I have missed two classes altogether and he's only missed one. I wish nobody had to miss class, but I wish my little girl wasn't sick either.

You're a brave woman. I would have traded in his sorry ass years ago for a Miniature Daschund.

The way I see it, I am going to have to go through a lot suffering, change, and growth for 2-5 years no matter what path I take. If I can do it WITH him, with his full cooperation and effort, it will be better for everyone. If not, I can say I tried everything but not at the expense of my happiness/sanity and it's still what's best for the kids.

I'm pretty fortunate. I appear to have all the info on the table, where as many BS are left in the dark for a long time. I have a spouse who is remorseful and trying to do the work, even if he has his less than perfect moments and is not always successful. I have systems in place to work things to my advantage. I have my health, and I am young enough to go back to work and start over as a single parent if I have to. I have time. What I don't have is a crystal ball. Only time will tell what my life will bring.

The way I see it, I am going to have to go through a lot suffering, change, and growth for 2-5 years no matter what path I take. If I can do it WITH him, with his full cooperation and effort, it will be better for everyone. If not, I can say I tried everything but not at the expense of my happiness/sanity and it's still what's best for the kids.

I'm pretty fortunate. I appear to have all the info on the table, where as many BS are left in the dark for a long time. I have a spouse who is remorseful and trying to do the work, even if he has his less than perfect moments and is not always successful. I have systems in place to work things to my advantage. I have my health, and I am young enough to go back to work and start over as a single parent if I have to. I have time. What I don't have is a crystal ball. Only time will tell what my life will bring.

Thanks for keeping us updating. And can I add Im so jealous about those classes you both are taking! Why is nothing like that available here?!

I hope the kids are feeling better now- tummy bugs are awful. You're doing a great job juggling, just remember to take time out from all of the chaos to slow down and relax. Just for you.

~ Sabina

So for the next six weeks or so, WH will be working 80+ hour weeks. It's the nature of the beast of his work, cannot be avoided. He doesn't even have a lot of flexibility with the hours, if the bigwigs come calling - he has to go. So I was not expecting a lot of support or progress during this time. Maybe even some regression.

Parent/teacher conferences were yesterday evening. I told him weeks ago, that I needed to go. Told him I was getting a sitter, he could go if he wanted, but he needed to be home at a certain time to take the sitter home so she didn't have to walk home after the kids were in bed.

He calls midday. Says he doesn't know if he can come. The bigwigs have called a meeting at that time. I'm very unemotional - he could have blocked it out on his calendar, told him he had one hour he was not available, etc ahead of time but clearly he didn't. I could see this was going to be a thing where he would throw a mantrum, say he couldn't come because he *had* to work, or worse come anyway and throw the mantrum because he *had* to come home, I didn't plan well, etc. I'm not playing this game, I hang up. He calls back later and says he will come home to take the sitter home, but he has to go back and will be working until midnight.

He calls later, between my conferences. Surprised I am there, because he was sure because the kids were sick and his theatrics would have drove me to cancel. Tell him no I'm there, and I might be a little late because the conferences are running behind. And as it turns out I am a bit late. He is clearly annoyed, says CFO is staying late waiting on him :rolleyes: but keeps the mantrum in check since the sitter is there.

So I figure he's saving the mantrum for when he gets home. I decide right then and there I'm not going to take it. I will cut him off, tell him if anyone gets an ass-chewing tonight, it's him. That every day I am here is a gift, and if he wants to piss it away fine, that plays into eventual consequences but I will not let him shit on me too. I don't care how difficult it is for him to do it, but this was an obligation to his family, he had plenty of notice and it didn't take that much time. He's not getting any guilt from me or medals for his sacrifice. If he expects that, I should tell the lawyer to change the postnup to divorce papers now.

Then the youngest starts throwing up. So I have to message him that he's sleeping on me on the couch (where he comes in when he comes home), so be quiet coming in and that my phone is charging elsewhere in the house so don't call. I still expect him to think he's putting the youngest to bed when he gets home so he can either have his mantrum, or dramatics about how he "sacrificed" so much today to fulfill his basic duties at home.

But when he gets home, no such thing. Immediate attends to all my and our child's needs. Fixes me food, cleans stuff up, etc. The only mention of work is tomorrow will be crazy and late too, but still let him know if there is anything he can try to do to help. No dramatics, no mantrum, no falling on the sword of his sacrifice, etc.

I don't mean to paint the picture he does his mantrum thing all the time, just at the end of the year when the hours get crazy. And he still doesn't deserve any awards for behaving like a rational human being under duress, for sure. But I still think it is very interesting that there is a definite change in his behavior, a conscious change. I think he finally understands I'm not interested in anything less than full commitment to R and recovery, and he better act accordingly.

Which is a good thing. Whether it is enough, has yet to be seen.

And he still doesn't deserve any awards for behaving like a rational human being under duress, for sure.

I wish my SAWH understood this.

~ S.

My hat off to you!!

Hope kids are better soon.

((hug))

My hat off to you!!

Hope kids are better soon.

((hug))

I know it's been a rough couple weeks for me, kiddos being sick and having to miss out on all my support options, on top of a holiday and one of my kids birthdays, and WH busiest season at work. So I know I'm tired and physically and emotionally hurting more than normal.

However, I keep feeling like it's not enough. I need more, I deserve more, so I can be happy. I just have to figure out exactly what all that "more" is. I'm literally exhausted and can't see straight, so my brain is fuzzy. But I know I'm not happy. I need to figure out what will make me happy.

Mine too, has done a lot of positive changes in himself, but I also feel like its not enough and not sure what enough is. Maybe its the hurt speaking.

btw, I had my first appt with an IC who specializes in spouses of SA. She asked me to start journaling and as part of that, to answer two questions to myself..
1. What do I need from him in order to stay in this marriage?
2. What has his actions done to me and how do I feel about that?

Just thought I would share

Thank you for sharing those 2 questions your SA/IC gave you.

I need to think hard and long on those two things.

In a rough patch again and I need to verbalize these things so I will work on that.

Thanks again

This has been a good week. All my kids are well, were able to go to school and childcare so I could do my IC and attend S-Anon. I'm getting caught up on the domestic front, am sleeping better, trying to remind myself not to live on coffee, diet coke, and cookies.

So my second IC, the CSAT is still gathering my info. More about my FOO, and basically how WH and I met and spent the last 15 years. I was, before this whole thing went down, a very positive, glass half-full, see the good in everyone and everything kind of person. I don't really feel that way now, but because it is my habit when I tell my story to anyone, I still go through the motions of trying to put a positive spin on things.

However, my life for the last 15 years is, in many ways, so depressing. Seriously, my whole life has been one step forward two steps back. WH and I have been hit with a number of negative life changes and each time we get back up again, we get knocked down by things out of our realm control. Genuine Lifetime movie type stuff, LOL. And the whole time, I'm trying to spout half glass full type comments but I can't believe my own life story sometimes.

So while there's no sexual or substance abuse, no physical abuse, etc in my life story (and not in his either) there's lots of death, layoffs, moving cross country multiple times to make a new start, kids with massively time-consuming medical and behavioral issues, crushing debt, etc. So anyway it's no wonder I didn't see the SA freight train coming, LOL, I have been furiously scooping water out of the lifeboat for years. I don't like to think about that stuff. I like to forget and be grateful for what we have now, look for opportunities in the future. But I guess you never know where you are gonna go until you know where you have been.

Then at the end of every session, this therapist has us pull a heart stone out of a bag, to give us a new focus each time. Last time I got "Honesty", which frankly has been hard for me to focus on, being honest about my own stuff. This time I got "Miracles Happen" which she says is very rare to get. I'm taking it as a positive sign, that I'm in for many good things to come.

today I finally got to go to my second S-Anon meeting. I've missed two due to the pestilence in my house, LOL. This meeting has an optional step work component beforehand, that I will attend (because when else am I going to be able to do it, honestly). Today I worked on step one, and I took my shovel/spoon analogy a bit further.

Said that SA has consumed my life to the point even mundane daily tasks have become overly difficult and sometimes nearly impossible. That it is like digging ditches with a spoon, instead of a shovel. And when you are used to digging ditches with a shovel, you really come to resent that spoon. You hate your WH for putting you in a position that you have to use a spoon now. You hate that your higher power has taken your shovel away. You hate yourself for not being grateful that at least you have a spoon. And it all just makes you angry and further pushes the cycle of the vortex of SA consuming your life.

So I meditated on it, thought about it, prayed about it. This is what I came up with. Right now, I need the spoon. If I had the shovel now, like I mentioned before, I'd whack my DH with it and bury him in the back yard. And that wouldn't really help anybody, LOL. And now that it takes so long to dig ditches with a spoon, I have to question everything I do. Is this a ditch that I *need* to dig, that is essential to my existence, my healing, my recovery, my health? Or do I want to dig it because I've always dug it, never questioned why I dug it, and I don't know any other way? Is my time best served by digging this ditch, now or ever? Do I need I to dig it all? Or maybe I need instead build a bridge. Or, as someone else pointed out later, maybe I need to use the spoon to feed me instead. Right now I need to question everything, make sure that in this new chapter in my life I am dedicating my energy to the right things.

And THAT is why I have a spoon, why my shovel was taken away. It is a blessing in disguise, and I need to stop being angry about it.

One day at a time...

Stopsayingtry brings up valid points, which I was holding back on because my post was already long and I'm trying to follow the S-Anon advice of not pushing someone on the 12 steps faster than their destined time frame, LOL. But let me say this.
My SAWH also struggles with the addict label, the idea he is supposedly powerless over his actions, the religious aspect of 12 step, the whole aligned agenda of 12 step and Carnes-directed SA treatment.

I, like your wife, see my WH working very hard at what he thinks is helping, but also see a man that is a white-knuckling dry drunk scared to death of failing and has convinced himself he won't let that be a possibility. That scares me to death. I know he's working hard, he's convinced he won't fail, but I also know what I know about SA and have seen what happens when it is not addressed properly in other people.

I, like your wife and like Stopsayingtry said, know you need to have an understanding of your addiction and what the addiction cycle entails. We also know you need the guidance of an addiction specialist to put together a recovery agenda and a relapse plan for you, so you can move forward in your progress and so you have support in place with the challenges that lie ahead. To not have the recovery agenda in place gives you no direction to succeed, and not having the relapse plan in place pretty much guarantees failure when the challenges arise. 12 step can also really help with both of those points.

It's great you are seeing an IC to deal with your internal issues. But if I was your wife, this is what I'd want for Christmas:
I'd want you seeing an addiction specialist, preferably a CSAT, even if by phone/email if that's the only way you can do it, to get a recovery agenda and relapse plan and address your addiction directly. This can be in addition to your current IC, I'm not saying stop seeing her.
I'd want you in a 12 step program with a sponsor. Even if it meant phone/online meetings and primarily texting with your sponsor, if that's the only way to get it.
I'd want you to share with me your step work, your achievements in recovery, your internal struggles I have with the steps and your recovery, what your recovery agenda is and what your relapse plan is. And hopefully the relapse plan only involves informing me after the fact, that the CSAT and 12 step sponsor are the accountability people directing you when this happens.

I also understand you are probably not ready to hear all this. But now it's in writing, and you can go back and look at it when you ARE ready. I feel I owe it to your wife to say how I feel now since you asked, despite your current position on the recovery timeframe rendering you unable to process what we are saying right now, and I really hope my feelings are in alignment with hers.

Good luck to you both.

I'm a little freaked out right now. At IC it came up that this will be our first Christmas with just us and the kids, no other family. We need to think about new traditions we want to do, and how we can connect with the extended family appropriately long distance yet maintain our own thing here. What I'm going to do with the kids on break, etc. I don't *think* it will be awkward or hostile with no other people in the mix, but I have to be prepared, I guess.

Talked about boundaries some in IC. I think I'm better aligned on that now. And we discussed my self-perception among other things. I think I have a pretty accurate perception about how much I don't know about myself. Apparently I was indirectly led to believe what I wanted didn't matter as a child. So since it doesn't matter, I haven't really thought deeply about what I want. In anything. And now that I think about it, I'm probably teaching my kids the same thing. Ugh. And if you don't know what you want, it's hard to define boundaries. And exercise the right intent and purpose of them.

It's been a harsh reality to come to these conclusions. I like to think I am a pretty good problem solver, and I kick ass and take names when issues arise. But I'm not really doing that if I don't address what I really want first. I didn't want to see that my FOO has set me up to be this way, and that I'm repeating the same mistakes with my children. Ouch. The last thing I want for them is to go through what I'm going through now, and I'm pretty much setting them up for that.

We BSs get so lost in the hurt and the damage control that we forget to do the most important things for ourselves. I'm learning to overcome that. I can't even really think about WH much right now, if he's doing what he says he is and what he's supposed to. I have too much of myself at stake at the moment.

First, when I went back and reviewed my original list of boundaries/requirements (earlier in this thread), I found that multiple ones were not being met to my satisfaction. However, upon further introspection and re-reading this thread, I realized something. Even though I was so careful in preparing that list, and using the right delivery with the "I" statements and etc, I made one grave tactical error. I didn't tell WH beforehand I was going to do it. I just had decided to do it when when we planned to do informal full disclosure, right before that discussion so I could do it without being emotionally compromised after disclosure. Which is all very well and good for ME, but in a way I kind of blindsided WH. Had I told him beforehand I was going to do it, he probably would have taken notes and been more mentally prepared to accept them and ingrain them in his life.

So what I decided to do was give them to him in writing. I told him I would do so, that it wasn't any new info, I just wanted him to have it in writing because I never gave them to him in writing. I told him this almost a week ago and A lot of holiday crap has prevented me from finishing it, so he's been on pins and needles ever since. But I *will* do it this week.

The second thing that happened, in further exploring my lack of knowing what I want, I learned something new in therapy. Apparently SAs (and I suspect serial cheaters in general) have a huge problem identifying needs and wants - they want it all and do anything to get it all, at the expense of anything and everything. That drives a lot of their behavior. Spouses/partners of SAs (and I suspect spouses of serial cheaters too) also have a problem with identifying needs and wants - but at the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum. They can't identify what they need, can't justify wants. They stay in relationships that are unhealthy and unsafe because they are unable to see it is a NEED to be only in relationships that are healthy and safe. Or in my case, I have a firm grip of what I NEED to survive, but I have trouble allowing myself the needs/wants that are required for me to THRIVE. Obviously when two spouses have differing views on needs and wants there is going to be a lot of conflict, but it the case of SAs it is considerably more amplified because there is a greater disparity. It causes a lot more conflict in my life than I give it credit for. And like everything else, I have to resolve MY internal issues to determine what I really want and need before I can even consider trying to align it with WH's. And of course he has to do the same in his recovery.

A third revelation was I turned inward with my frustrations with WH. I thought about how I was really unhappy he was not doing everything possible to get a new therapist, go to his 12 step meetings, get a sponsor, and have a recovery and relapse plan in place. And while I am certainly entitled to feel safe, and I need him to do those things to feel safe....if I am totally honest with myself, I only have three of the four things in place for MYSELF. So how can I expect him to have these things when I don't have them myself. I need to commit to my own recovery before I can lay judgment on his. I can tell him how it makes me feel all I want, but how can he take me seriously if I am not willing to do it for myself?

All very heavy stuff, especially during the holidays and a month that is very triggery for me anyway. But I *will* carry on. I'm going to figure out how to THRIVE if it kills me.

Anyway, we had a good Christmas. First of all this was our first Christmas EVER that we had no external family involved and just us. Second of all, we were mostly both on the same page about all the gifting for the kids (by us, Santa, and what the extended family gave). And I did a lot of new traditions with the kids, and some with WH too, and that was nice.

One interesting twist was WH decided he was going to give me a gift this year. We have not exchanged gifts for more than 10 years. Instead we opt to upgrade an appliance/electronic that we don't necessarily *need*, or we go on a special outing/event. WH is the worst to buy gifts for, and he's not great at giving them either. A couple of times he knocked it out of the park, a couple of times totally meh, and more often than not waited too late to get what he wanted to get and comes up empty-handed with promises of getting something later . Hence the other gifting arrangement, LOL.

So I was anxious because I didn't want to obsess about his gift, but not show up empty-handed either. And I didn't want to be mad if he fell through again. So I consulted friends, and they suggested cologne. He is big into it, but only certain ones. I wound up getting a brand he likes but a different scent than he normally uses. Told him I knew he like the brand and *I* liked the scent. So he's been wearing every day since Xmas, and was happy to get it.

He got me a memory foam travel pillow. I was a bit taken aback, like WTH is this LOL, but if you have ever used one...ooohh it feels good. But mostly it was a symbolic gift. It was to represent the travelling he and I would do as a couple, something we have put on the back burner since having kids. The kids are old enough now to leave for extended periods of time, and he wants to resume it again. Because he knows it's important to me, that it is one of few things I truly enjoy and very much miss now. Also it was to represent his commitment to allow me to travel alone, my girls night out weekends, more often to restore my sanity. He has not been especially supportive in that area (pre and post dday) and he wants to change that.

This is all stuff he told me, not stuff I derived in my mind. I truly appreciated it. It was a lovely gift.

But honestly? The best gift he gave me (and he doesn't really know it) is that he decided on a new CSAT IC and called him to set up an appointment.

Also, the first draft of my post nup is almost finished and I have an appointment to go over it in a couple weeks. That is wonderful news, and I can't wait to put that behind me so I can feel truly free in how I choose to live my life and make my decisions.

There are other things that have happened, but I need to process them more before I expand. But it is largely a positive and progressive time for me. For that I am thankful.

This year, I am focusing on me. Which is harder than it looks, LOL, because I have three little kids and WH is still not technically IMHO in active recovery for his SA. It's pretty ridiculous that it took seven months out for me to see that this has to happen.

So what does that entail? Weekly IC for me, and I just joined a weekly group counseling session as well. Yes, this is on top of the weekly S-Anon meeing I go to. Because if you know my whole story, anybody that has had this done to them is ALL kinds of messed up, no matter how strong they are, and needs serious help. It's expensive, all this therapy and childcare so I can go to this therapy, but it's cheaper than checking me in a looney bin I'm sure and may prevent the expense of divorce. It's taken considerable effort for me to shift my schedule, my kids' schedules, and get babysitting in place to do this. And Lord knows I'd rather use this kind of dough on massages or whatever but you do what you need to do.

I see the lawyer this week about the first draft on the post nup. I suspect there will be some additions that will need to be made but I am hoping that we can wrap this up in a month. Yup, I still have a large portion of our savings in an account in my name that he has no access to and is not the person who will get access to it if I die unexpectedly.

WH and I had a long discussion, and we are going to buy a house. Before you say WTF, you would have to understand all the particulars of our situation to understand why this is not the worst idea ever. We rent, and the area is ok but not the best. The schools are ok but not the best. We tried making the school situation better here but there is only so much we can do and while it might not get much better even in a higher ranked, more moneyed district, I doubt it could get worse in moving to that kind of district.

But mostly I need to move for ME and secondarily for US. I don't want to be here any more. I can count the number of times I've been in the basement in 2012 on one hand. I don't want to be there, that is where I had my discovery, where he frequently did his acting out that did not involve live people, and where we had our most difficult discussions late at night post-dday because it was the only place our children cannot hear us. The basement is where the kids used to spend most of their time, and now they don't because I won't go in there. It's stupid to stay here if I don't have to.

But the flip side is it is just as risky to rent as to buy here. Renting costs way more than owning, and rental homes get foreclosed on right and left here, leaving tenants with banks as landlords who don't care and evict them as soon as legally possible. Apartments are not an option because WH does not want to move unless all our kids can get their own room (they've always shared), and there really is no such thing as 4 bedroom apartments, LOL. WH doesn't want to take the rental risks, he'd rather take the owner risks, even if it means we might wind up splitting up in the future. And we can have all that addressed in the post nup so that will not be a future problem.

I know a lot of his thinking is out there, and left to my own devices I might have more seriously considered an apartment/condo and continue to let the kids share just to get them in better schools. But the truth is *I* need us to move to a family neighborhood, where there are kids to play with in walking distance and other SAHMs for me to socialize with. The kids need this as well. WH needs a neighborhood with other couples we can hang out with, and a home that he would be proud to show his coworkers to. Since moving here about 18 months ago, I have had three nonfamily people visit us and he has had none. We've not gone out with other couples at all, only the occasional night out with just us. We have no real support network here. More importantly, *I* have no real support network here.

So if it takes buying a house to do all of this, I'm ok with that. It's going to take at least 2-5 years for me to heal and get over this, regardless of what happens to us or him, and I'm not going to sit in this house here unhappy waiting for that magic moment when it's "right" to change my living situation. So I am going to start looking at houses with a realtor soon, and with any luck we will be moving over the summer.

What is he doing? He has his new IC, and he is a CSAT. He made his first appointment and made a second one for this weekend. He has not made it to a 12 step meeting this year that I know of, but the first week he was coming off Xmas vacation and got slammed with catchup work and the second week his mother and sister were visiting so he didn't have much opportunity to go. So I suppose the proof will be his attendance in the future, but honestly I don't care at the moment. I've got too much on my plate making all *my* commitments. I've already told him we can't even begin to think about resuming a physical relationship until he is in regular IC/12step/has a recovery and relapse plan in place, so it's out of my hands.

He is being present when at home, being there for me and the kids, etc but honestly I don't think he deserves a medal for that, since that is what a husband is *supposed* to do, should have been doing all along. I have randomly spot checked his email and GPS'd the car, no suspicious activity that I know of. He could of course have other means to act out but I have to trust they will be revealed to me somehow if I need to know. He appears remorseful but I would not say the remorse is on par with the gravity of his actions. But honestly if one could truly understand the gravity of those actions, one would be inclined to shoot themselves in the face. He has to go on his journey of recovery and to deal entirely with what he has done to ME at this stage in his recovery would probably destroy him. I am ok with that delay as long as he is actively making the journey to get there.

There is no real active animosity at home, we cuddle, we parent, we live our lives. I of course struggle with my demons, still have trouble sleeping, still have random moments of anger and such, but I'm getting better and stronger every day. I am trying to live in the present, and not miss my kids growing up or try not to impact their lives negatively as much as I can with what has happened. It ain't perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than it was six or seven months ago.

And that's where I'm at. IDK if it gives anyone else hope, but it gives ME hope. I will survive. And eventually I WILL thrive in spite of this. One way or another.

I was particularly interested in your response to the co-dependent group, as you felt you were more PTSD than co-dependent. IMHO I saw your growth in accepting you had acquired some of the co-dependent traits with the struggle your WS has with accepting his addiction and the title SA. You were more open minded and were able to embrace what you heard, process it and apply it to yourself.

Your WS hasn't reached that point of dealing with the label and what that implies. Through your post I sense he is trying very hard to meet your needs for recovery. I know you have grown over these last months. I do hope you give credit to your WS for his growth, even though it isn't as much as you would like.

I know when the post-nup is done you will feel a large weight lifting from your shoulders. Remember to just breathe, enjoy the good moments, live in the present, be supportive but also true to yourself.

You are moving along the long road to resolution (which ever way that unfolds for you).

[This message edited by momentintime at 9:12 PM, January 18th (Wednesday)]

I do appreciate the growth he has had. I am frustrated it is not at the rate I would like, but from what I read and hear he's cruising along at a pretty good clip all things considered. To be mad about him progressing slower than me and what I want is about as productive as being mad at my oldest for not growing as fast as my middle child, who will soon be the tallest kid. Pointless and no good can come of it, LOL.

I would LOVE to believe that we are both going to continue on the good work and the gentle path and get where we need to go together. But I also know that his recovery and MY recovery have different cycles in that 2-5 year period, and they rarely go high and low together. It will be challenging.

It hurts. I want him to be able to give 100% to me and my healing, to make amends for all that he has done. But he can't, and I am largely carrying that myself at the moment. I have to have faith that he can get there, and that if he can't I will do just fine by myself. What is important is he is giving 100% of what he can right now.

And that's really all I can ask.

As for PTSD vs co-dep, I still feel like initially I more identified with the PTSD model, but who wouldn't being shellshocked with that info. The important thing is that while I was learning about both, I realized that I was developing co-dep behaviors as a result of what happened, and if I didn't meet it head-on soon I would be textbook co-dep. And at any rate I could benefit from therapy and support groups that subscribe to beliefs that most spouses of SAs are, because I would be in the company of others that understood my unique (and not so unique) situation.

I've been really really blessed that I have found mostly the right people to help me all through my journey. SI played a big part in that, pushing me to the places I needed to go and the people I needed to see. I cannot imagine trying to go through all this unassisted, especially the holidays.

I only hope my story helps others. Because I learn a little bit from every thread I read here, and I want to give back too.

I had a bad day a couple of weeks ago. Through everything that has gone on, I have never spent all day in bed, taken meds, nothing. I have three littles that don't make that possible. But this particular Sunday, I was toast. I was exhausted, depressed, in a foul mood, and NEEDED to isolate and rest for a while. And I realized I had another responsible adult in the house, and had WH deal with the kids that day. He did fine, but he was not especially nice about it. Kept interrupting my rest, letting the kids come bug me, etc and generally blowing an good opportunity to shine and get brownie points for good behavior. Then around lunchtime he said he had to go to the mall to get something (which really could have waited), and I didn't react, just said whatever. And he told the kids to leave me alone (yeah, that will work) and left for an hour to get his thing. When he came back he brought me chocolates, as an apology I guess, since this is not a man who gives flowers and chocolates. He tried to engage me in several arguments and I blew him off, and at one point he was saying something to the effect of "if you were in the same position as me, you'd expect blah blah..." I actually looked him square in the eye and said "The double standard principle does not apply to you. Ever."

But we got through that day. He's been more supportive, more attentive to me and the family, etc. which is good but as I've said not worthy of excessive congrats. You don't get medals for suddenly doing what you were supposed to be doing all along.

Anyway, I realized why I was in such a funk. I am hitting that realization of how much damage has been done, how much work I have to do to heal myself, how much work he has to do to fix himself, and how much work we will have to do to get us healed as a couple. It is daunting. It will be hard. It will take way longer than I want to admit to. And I still don't think WH has a clue how long it will take or how much effort he will have to put in. He's willing but just not at the point he can objectively see it. I think it's a wall that many BSs hit no matter what their situation is, and it sucks when you have that epiphany.

But what I see is I can't wait 2-5 years or whatever, to put everything in my life on hold while this goes on. I can't get better, we can't get better, unless we make some drastic changes in all aspects of our lives. One of those things is we have to move. To a better neighborhood, better schools, better house for a variety of different reasons that apply to every member in our family. And we made an offer on a house, and if it pans out it will be a steal. What happens if we split is addressed in the post nup, and if we have to resell it I think we can at least break even after fixing it up if not make a little money. And honestly this house is so big if we had to do an in-house separation for whatever reason, it is plenty large enough to accommodate that. This is not our first rodeo, LOL, this is the third house we've bought so we are not getting in over our heads. And if the offer on this house doesn't pan out, it's because a better one will become available in the future.

Kind of like everything else in my life right now. I'm doing the best I can, and if it doesn't pan out the way I expected, it's because I was meant to do something else better. I just gotta keep on swimming. Infidelity may have kicked my ass, but I'm not going to let it ruin my life.

We bought a house. I made this impossibly long list of requirements for a house, said it had to be in a certain price range in a very specific area. It was a nearly impossible request. And I got lucky and got one almost right away. Seriously, everything we wanted in a house and more, and because the listing realtor messed up the listing, we were the only ones to bid on it the first week - many more and higher offers poured in AFTER they were locked into a contract. It will need some work, but when we are done, we will have significant equity in the house and would not take a loss if we had to sell it even right away.

So I've pretty much got my "dream house", in the area I wanted, walking distance to all the schools all my kids need for the next six years (that are way better than the schools they are in now), and even if we had to flip the house in six months we'd at least break even if not make a profit. I can make a fresh start, and when all three kids are in school next year I will have more time to address MY NEEDS in a home and area that is a clean slate.

But of course that means right now is a mess. I've got a parade of contractors to direct for the next three months to get the house move-in ready. Makes it difficult for me to do my IC, my group therapy, my S-Anon meetings. I've missed all three at least twice in the past six weeks. Which is a huge deal for me, especially since I have been making great strides in my healing. And WH has had to miss some IC as well in getting stuff done to buy the house, has not tried to go to 12 step at all. MC seems so far in the distance, since resolving our personal issues first have so far to go. I have to remind myself there is some small sacrifices to be made now to get where I want to be.

He has changed a lot of his behaviors. He spends little time on the computer at home any more, but then again he does spend a lot of time playing scrabble on his phone instead (and nothing else, I checked). He is more present for me and the family. He tries to help me with what I need, but he sucks at being able to tell what it is without a lot of direction. His efforts seem to be, be at home as much as possible, and be available as much as he can. He still. works long hours, but his time home is definitely different.

His attitude toward the house is different than our previous two home purchases. He has held back on wanting control in things that need to be done to the house, and is pretty content to just be kept in the loop of what is going on and just doing what I tell him he needs to do. In the past he would delay the stupidest little things because he wanted to check out everything I had already researched and planned the best course of action for, only to either throw monkey wrench in the plans at large or wind up agreeing with my assessment in the first place. Really home improvement is MY area of expertise, he is not handy or knowledgeable about it at all, and he just couldn't give up the control aspect. This time it is not as much of an issue. He's happy to be the finance expert on how we are going to fund all this stuff in addition the home purchase and the cost of maintaining two homes for four months and let me do what I do best. He's very excited to be in this new neighborhood and can't stop talking about it to others.

So it's a start. We have a long way to go. And I don't know how it's going to end. But I do know I am working hard to set myself up for the best future *I* can have, and if he's part of it, great.

I can report my healing and recovery is going well and I am progressing. I still have a lot of that "the more I know, the more I learn I don't know" going on but it's still forward progress. It makes me hopefully and at time, actually happy.

SAWH is making progress also. He goes to IC and SA weekly, and I heard something about a group therapy maybe in the near future. I have noticed small and steady changes in him, all for the better. Although I do still monitor his computer activity, I've dropped most of my other spy efforts because I don't feel I need to use them anymore.

We have not progressed enough in our IC to pursue MC yet, but our communication has greatly improved. We spend a lot of time together as a family, and we plan couple time as well. I still think it will be the standard 2-5 year wait before we really know how it will all pan out in the end, but the point is we are fixing ourselves so we can have the best chance at R, and be in the best shape to parent our children.

I really could not ask for much more given my sitch and being only 9 months out. I am very lucky indeed.

But maybe not as lucky as SAWH!

Hope you continue to heal!

I am progressing in my therapy. I'm at the stage where it gets worse before it gets better. It is ROUGH. It's hard on my kids, on my SAWH, on me. But I am focused on the light at the end of the tunnel. I *have* to heal from this, no matter what the outcome, and there will be pain to endure before I can heal and get better. I am doing my best to set myself up for success for my future.

We had an interesting series of events happen. SAWH was assigned to do training in a city we used to live in, where I believe the escalating of acting out and infidelity started. There really wasn't an option for him not to go. And I tried to be okay with it, but then I decided to put my foot down and tell him he couldn't go and deal with the consequences. So I had my speech ready...and then he said he wanted the whole family to go. Take the kids out of school, stay at the hotel with him, we'd make a vacation out of it. It was a brilliant solution, and we had an awesome time. While I still don't 100% trust my husband alone in that city, or any other city for that matter LOL, I was able to establish more new, positive memories with that city for me and my family.

He's brought up joining a church when we get settled. We've never gone to church as a couple or a family, except to tag along with other family members when visiting. I think he recognizes the spiritual void in his life and our lives, and he wants to correct that. I'm taking it as a positive step.

He was not so thrilled about me telling him I will need to update the post nup to reflect our home purchase and get it finalized. I don't anticipate he will thwart that effort, but he's not going to go out of his way to support or expedite it. He wants to believe he is done with acting out and infidelity and it will never be an issue again, and dealing with the post nup messes up that fantasy. But he will suck it up and get over it, LOL.

It's not perfect by far. Like I said it is rough for me, and as a result everyone else indirectly right now. But I'm facing my issues and going to survive and thrive regardless of whatever outcome happens. I am determined that failure is not an option in that area.

This was not how it was supposed to be.

SAWH and I had a major setback yesterday. Basically, he confessed he has been struggling with sexual sobriety all along, that he has never been able to go more than two weeks without masturbating. That he's stayed away from porn, strippers, hookers etc but just can't seem to otherwise last more than two weeks basically since DDay. Worse, he had been lying to his 12 step group about it, because they are largely old-timers with much longer sobriety - he didn't want to be *that* guy that couldn't last two weeks.

He did say he was being honest with his new therapist this whole calendar year he's been seeing him. And when we spontaneously fooled around last weekend (no sex, just mutual stimulation to orgasm), he immediately called his sponsor the next day and came clean about everything with him. That he led me to believe he was sober so he wouldn't disappoint me, and thus led me to believe it was ok to start resuming things slowly. And that he clearly wasn't ready. And he was embarrassed, trapped, didn't know how to dig himself out of the hole he had dug for himself with the group and me.

It sounds like his sponsor said all the right things. That what he was doing was textbook, it's all part of the cycle and coming to terms with the addiction. That he had been motivated in his recovery by trying to keep me from leaving, instead of doing it for himself. That he needed to rip off the bandaid and tell the truth to me and the group, and it would be alright. The important thing was he was being honest now, and that is forward progress on accepting the first step.

He has a meeting with his CSAT tonight. They will discuss it further then.

He was genuinely remorseful and very afraid I was going to leave him. Admitted that when we do get to the formal disclosure process (which is when the SA fully discloses all infidelity and SA activities in a controlled setting, with a therapist to support him as well as a therapist to support me) that there would be more he hadn't told me, that it had gone on longer than he had said (duh!). Admitted he didn't really grasp the whole recovery/addiction concept before, and now it was becoming clear to him what it really was and what all it really entailed, how it wasn't linear and how long it really was. How we watched me do all the things I do (IC, group therapy, S-Anon, etc) and was making progress and how he felt he couldn't tell me he badly he was failing, that he didn't want to disappoint me after all I had been doing.

So what did I do? I was quiet, I let him talk. When he was done, I did say of course I am disappointed. More in that he could not be honest with me (and his group and himself) than the actual failure of sobriety. That I would need time to process all this. That a lot of the trust he had rebuilt with me was now gone.

Then I chose to read him something I wrote here six months ago. It was in response to a SA soliciting input from others regarding him and his wife. He was limited in his therapy options due to his location, and felt like he was doing all he could but nothing he did seemed to make things with his wife better, that he seemed to keep making her even more unhappy. A copy of my response is here, page 10 of my story second post:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=421531&AP=181&HL=32550
And I told him I wrote it six months ago and I still felt the same way.

I told him he had to get better for himself, not for me or for us. That until he can do it for himself, "we" in the fullest sense cannot really be possible. That he deserved to get better, that he needed to get better because he deserved an authentic life and he deserved to be happy. That it touched all aspects of his life more than he realized, and he needed to change it for himself.

I also told him whatever he does has no bearing on what I do for me. I will do all my recovery work regardless of what he does, because I need it for me. That he needed to let that go as having any impact on what he does. He had a lifetime to make things up to me, regardless of our status, but he needed to focus on getting himself better for himself. So being the husband and father he wanted to be could be possible.

I reminded him I had promised (more to myself than to him) that I would wait a year before making any major decisions about us. I still had a month left, and I intended to honor that promise. And that I would always love him and support his recovery regardless of our status. That there were three kids upstairs that needed him to be healthy more than I did, and I would always do what's best for them.

He said he didn't deserve me. I told him he was right. But I'm still here. For now. That while I wasn't handing down "consequences" like making him spend the night elsewhere, leaving, etc there were consequences for his actions. My trust in him is severely beaten. The potential path to our M healing had been compromised. That he clearly needed to step things up in his recovery, start going to group therapy, etc to prove he was serious about getting better. He was going to have to fight an uphill battle.

So I'm still processing this obviously. The other shoe has finally dropped, I guess. I'm not surprised by any of this, it's not like I haven't been reading this in books and in posts here all along that this would happen. It's more like I've been waiting for WHEN it would happen. And while it sucks, so far it has not been the all-ending, massive trauma response thing I thought it would be. Maybe I just need more time for it to kick in, IDK.

But regardless of what happens, I know it will be ok. I will be ok. How strange that I can find peace in that?

So his CSAT said SAWH will join a group therapy, but not until after he takes a full sexual history with SAWH. Which is pretty much what he's been working on this whole time, in addition to FOO and childhood experiences. I think he wants to make sure he is in a good fit with a group, and that SAWH is serious, I guess.

He said in taking the full history, SAWH is also doing the preliminary work for formal disclosure with me. Said he would step up that effort, faster than he would ideally like for him but he knows how important that is for my healing. He also stressed the center is pro-relationship and there are resources for MC and support there when we are ready for that step.

I have not brought up talking to his CSAT yet. This one, that he has been seeing since the beginning of the year, actually sat in on my group therapy last fall as part of his cross-training for that course for couples in very early therapy for SA I took. So I am comfortable with him, and wouldn't have issues discussing things with him when the time comes. I just figured he needed more time to assess SAWH. But I have an appointment with my CSAT today, and will discuss it with her then so I get an idea how I should proceed.

I asked SAWH if he felt better after talking to his CSAT. He said no. He felt incredibly ashamed. He still feared I would leave, because my year deadline was approaching. He asked how could I possibly trust him. ( And I confirmed, I can't.) He said he wasted so much time, not doing everything he was supposed to do, and everything I asked him to do. (And I confirmed, yes, you did not. And that was very disappointing.) That he was scared, humiliated, full of remorse, etc. And I told him everything he was feeling was normal, all part of the addiction process. That what was important was what does he do NOW.

Frankly, I'm tired. I understand this is a HUGE step for him. But I'm just over it and need some time to process and reflect on how this is all going to affect me, and what I'm going to do. My life is a bit overwhelming ATM with trying to get the new house ready and get the old house off my plate, end of school for the kids, etc.

He's been doing this for more than 10 years. I have proof. Lots and lots of proof.

This is a tremendous blow. I don't know if I can recover from this.

I don't know how to proceed.

Any suggestions, 2x4s, etc welcome.

He's been doing this for more than 10 years. I have proof. Lots and lots of proof.

This is a tremendous blow. I don't know if I can recover from this.

I don't know how to proceed.

Any suggestions, 2x4s, etc welcome.

No 2x4s here. Every new revelation just hurts so much and damages our ability to trust so much. You've been through so much already, and I understand how you're feeling right now so well.

Since your WH hasn't done his full disclosure yet, it's quite likely (I hope) that you would have discovered this at that time anyway. Would that have made a difference--if he had told you about it rather than you discovering it? if not, then maybe this really is the dealbreaking point. If so, then maybe you need to take some time to process this new information. In fact, I think you probably need to take some time regardless.

You've come so far, hathnofury. Your story has been inspiring to a lot of us for the way you've taken control of your life and taken such positive steps for yourself. You are so strong. I know we get to a point where we feel like we've hit the end of our strength, but I sense that your strength has only grown monumentally through all this, as has your ability to make healthy decisions for yourself.

So, while I want to send you huge hugs of support and strength, I also want to tell you that you are definitely capable of handling this and coming out of it whole and healthy, whatever path you choose.

Hang with us and keep posting until you figure things out. We're all here for you and mourning this new revelation with you.

In theory his plan is to come clean at disclosure, per his sponsor and CSAT's directives. Like I said, I just don't know that I can sit on this that long. I've waited too long already on him to catch up with me on recovery.

But then again, so much at stake. My post nup is not finalized - and I NEED full custody to feel safe. We just bought this damn house, which I love, but clearly would have reconsidered given the full story. I just have so much thinking to do and for once it is not clear what is the best course of action.

You have been so focused and healthy in setting up protective measures for yourself. I'd suggest that, at the very least, you focus on getting the post nup finalized right now. You are absolutely right--you need that and full custody to protect yourself and your family.

The thinking that you need to do will happen throughout every second, as you know too well. Try to focus, as you have so well up to now, on taking care of yourself and getting your protections finalized and set. That will buy you some time to think this through, as well.

I know what you're feeling. I don't know if I could last through any more revelations at this point. There comes a time when, no matter how much we love them, if they can't stand beside us and offer a healthy future, it just won't work.

I wish you wisdom and strength as you work through this. Lean on us when you need to. We're all still pulling for you.

I had some time to stew and consult others more savvy than me. This was what I would up telling my SAWH what my new boundaries are:

I'm fast-tracking the post nup, and I am getting more spousal support in the agreement. He will sign it without dragging his feet, or it's game over.

I am insisting on a meeting with his CSAT. I am also insisting on scheduling formal disclosure ASAP. I told him to tell his CSAT at his appointment last week. If it is not scheduled by the end of the month, he is sleeping elsewhere until it does.

What he doesn't know is I need to hear straight from the horse's mouth why I haven't had formal disclosure yet, basically to find out if it is SAWH that is holding things up. I also need to see if I know more about SAWH's history than the CSAT does, since SAWH claims he has been 100% honest with him. If either of things things turn out to be true, it is game over.

I told him I was struggling with whether to tell his mother. This was a consequence I laid out when we did our informal disclosure between the two of us, and it was one of several if I found out he held back significant facts. I told him he clearly has been using her funds for his activities, and she needs to know if she gives him money, it may go to that since it has in the past. The only thing holding me back from doing it is it may very well kill her, if not literally, figuratively. I told him that I was taking a huge risk discussing it with him first, since he could gaslight her and such now to not believe me if I do. I told him if I found out he does that, it is game over.

So how did he respond?

Zero resistance on the post nup and its new terms. Only that he may tweak wording since that is what he does for a living, but nothing that is not in the spirit of the agreement. This probably means his history is way worse than I know, or at least he thinks it is.

Some resistance on the disclosure, but only the deadline. Primarily because it is difficult to schedule our CSATs for it within that time frame. Asked to consider letting him sleep in the basement if it went past the deadline for budgetary reasons, or that we do it ourselves without the CSATs if their schedules couldn't accommodate that date. I said I would consider both options, but now I'm thinking NO. I need my CSAT there, and he's had a whole freaking year to to this.

On his mother, he asked that I consider it carefully, as it is a bell that can't be unrung. True. But I pointed out she'd find out eventually, because among the 12 steps is to make amends for their wrongdoings, and he will have to own his shit and tell her what he did with her money as a result of his wrongdoings. I don't think he had considered that, and he looked very defeated at that point.

I had previously said he had to step up his 12 step meetings. Told him phone meetings were acceptable. To not do so meant he was not serious about recovery, and I was not interested in a relationship of any kind with him if that was the case.

He is supposedly going to another meeting tonight, one he hasn't been to before, that meets the same time I have my group therapy (so a sitter is accounted for, I am not home alone with the kids for him to go). I also saw him looking up the procdures for the phone meetings (there are something like ten a day, no way he couldn't find something that he could do there).

I have put a call into his CSAT. SAWH said that CSAT said he needed to touch bases with my CSAT before calling me back, offered to play a voicemail confirming this. I would rather get it straight from the horse's mouth at this point. I offered that he sit in on my session with my CSAT this week if it's helpful.

I find out more stuff every day, the evidence just keeps coming. It is disgusting and very traumatizing. As pissed as I am it took a year to find all this out, I am partially thankful it did because it may have killed me a year ago. I'm much stronger now, and have tools and support in place to help me make better decisions. I was in no condition to make any important decisions a year ago.

Will this be the end of Mr. Hathnofury? I don't know. Only time will tell. And the next couple of weeks will be very telling.

That said, I can also feel the pain and the weariness in your post. YOu have been through so much and you have held everything together for your family. At a time when your WH F-ed up your entire universe, you shouldered everything and have supported him through his own recovery, as well. You have been incredibly generous and loyal.

I hope that you are going to get some resolution soon, one way or another. It sounds like you are moving decisively towards a place where you will know what you need to know to stay or go.

I wish that resolution for you and peace in whatever it is. You so deserve to have someone take care of YOU for awhile, other than yourself, that is--you have done an awesome job of being true to yourself throughout all of this.

Wishing you the outcome that you most need.

Edited to add - I think I see - full disclosure on the new info you found out with regard to how long its been going on.

[This message edited by k9lover1 at 7:50 AM, June 12th (Tuesday)]

K9, I went the SI disclosure route last summer, where he was supposed fess up to everything to me privately. Clearly, he lied. A LOT. And I told him at that time I would not tolerate TT and what the consequences would be if he was doing that. But there is a secondary component to it I may have not explained fully, which just applies to SAs.

In treatment for SA, there is a process called formal disclosure. It is totally different than what we often do here on SI. It is when the SA works with their IC to tell their entire sexual history to their spouse in a controlled environment. In that meeting, the spouse usually has an IC there to support them as well, and assist in the process. You have the big meeting, and then the spouse gets a chance to respond, sometimes right away, sometimes later - it depends on how the ICs run it. They are there to facilitate the process and minimize the trauma for both sides, not let one side go ballistic, etc.

So IMHO, any SA that has been in IC for six months and is still not up to bat for formal disclosure - that's a big red flag. Either the SA is not ready, or not willing, to do the process - IMO. I need to find out which it is, and if formal disclosure is even a possibility. In that respect, this situation is no different than any other infidelity sitch on SI. It is time to shit or get off the pot, you don't get to stall/gaslight/claim you need more time/etc. Either you are all in, or you are not. And if you are not, I'm out.

FWIW, I had the full STD screen as soon after DDay as I could, and six months after again. Totally negative for everything, not even stuff that people normally test positive for for just being human like cold sores. But further research shows many STDs can live in your mouth, throat, eyes, rectum, etc and while rare, I don't think rare applies when you are talking the volume of exposure I am been subjected to. Who would swab those areas for STDs? Ever? And putting STDs aside, all the oher diseases you can get from unprotected oral and anal with that many people, who also do it with that many people. There's no telling what he's given me over the years and what I still may have.

I just want to I've pretended to fall asleep on the couch the last two nights because right now, it's all I can do to let him touch me in casual contact. It's sad, I can see the despair in him. He's definitely recognizes it's fourth down and punt, and he's trying hard NOW...but IDK if I can recover now. It may be too little too late.

I'm meeting with the lawyer in a week to go over the first draft of my post nup. And find out how long it will take to fast-track it, and how long I have to wait once it's enacted if I want to D.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 7:36 PM, June 14th (Thursday)]

You've endured so much through all this. I'm so sorry that you can't catch a break. I don't have any words of wisdom--you're the example for the rest of us of how to keep your shit together.

Just sending lots of hugs and support. And most of all, hopes for some peace and resolution soon.

I went to my IC today alone, and SAWH's IC sat in for the first part of it. First I asked if SAWH had not done formal disclosure because he (SAWH) can't or he won't. His IC said that was a good question. Initially the latter, then the former, but now he is ready to start the process. He had come in holding back, but now is coming around appears to understand what all he needs to do to succeed.

Then I wanted to know if SAWH had admitted at least as much about his sexual history as I currently know - because if he hadn't he was wasting everyone's time. I found out SAWH was in fact being forthcoming about everything I had found out thus far with his IC - but only in the past two weeks. Whether it was the IC strongarming him, the incident that prompted his coming clean to his sponsor et al, that my year deadline looming, who knows (my assessment, not the ICs). But he certainly was not forthcoming from the beginning - he in fact lied a lot in the beginning. Luckily his IC is well versed in lying SA sack of shit stuff so he knows how to handle him. He thinks what I know appears to be the whole story. But you can never know for sure, of course. I told the IC the SAWH doesn't know I know... yet.

I asked him if he needed to go into an inpatient progam, if his case was severe enough. He didn't think so. I then found out what his plan was for SAWH. Power through formal disclosure, follow with a polygraph, then begin the initial recovery outpatient program with a group therapy component in addition to his IC. In addition to at least two 12 step meetings a week and weekly IC.

I then asked him if he thought there was a dual diagnosis possibility, meaning he is SA *and* some other personality disorder or for lack of a better term, mental illness. He said it is very possible, but it is too soon to tell. That that kind of stuff comes out as they go through the recovery program, and also he could better assess that after more time with him.

He then said he felt the change in SAWH was driven by my commitment to my own healing, that he could see the changes in me and and that had a huge impact on him. That he always sees a huge change in the addict when the spouse fully commits to their own healing over dealing with the addict any longer. That's when they realize the jig is up and they have to pony up or get out.

It's a lot for me to process. I was fearing it would be he was denying everything, or it was worse than I could ever imagine, and it's not either scenario. I'm still pissed he did not come clean to me about not being open with his IC from the beginning. I'm still pissed that he is making the effort now, right before my year deadline of promising not to make any major decisions until then. I can't know yet if he's doing it as a last ditch effort, or if he really gets it. I can't know yet if there is still even MORE for me to know.

I was so hoping a year ago by now I would be strong, healing nicely, and be able to make all the right choices with a clear conscience. And I feel like I am not only back where I started, but further behind.

Very frustrating.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 4:57 PM, June 15th (Friday)]

It has now been a year since I found out you were not who you presented yourself to be. I was completely destroyed by your betrayal, but I gave you a second chance. A tremendous gift of a full year to prove yourself worthy and continue to live in my presence, and not be thrown out on your ass. A chance to come completely clean, a chance to see you were broken and fix yourself, a chance to make amends. You repeatedly chose not to do all three.

All I ever wanted was for you to be completely honest with me, embrace your recovery so we could have a chance to recover OUR relationship, and do everything in your power to earn back my love and trust. I told you I would not tolerate trickle truth, and laid out boundaries and consequences if you did not comply. You continued to lie to me, our family, your IC, your support groups, and yourself. Even though you saw what it did to me each time I discovered something new, it was like discovering the first time all over again. You never fully investigated, much less embraced, what steps you needed to take on the path to recovery. You were never "all in" on trying to fix yourself, support my healing, or make it possible for us to reconcile and remain a family. You could not even do the bare minimum I asked to stay in the relationship, or the bare minimum what was required for your recovery. You convinced yourself you could never do enough to please me, so why even try, when the truth is you just didn't want to try. You convinced yourself if you pretended nothing was wrong, pretended to do the things that a husband and father is supposed to do for their family anyway, you'd get by and not have to do anything else. You never accepted responsibility for anything. You continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend nothing happened.

I deserve much better. I deserve someone who is "all in". I deserve someone that does not lie to me, ever, much less repeatedly every day for fifteen years. I deserve someone who will do anything to be healthy, so he can be the best husband and father he can be. I deserve someone who would go to the ends of the earth and never give up to keep me happy. Who would continue to fight even when it seemed hopeless, because they can't live without me.

I do recognize you have made small, consistent changes over time. That there wasn't zero effort. That you might still love me, despite the choices you make. That you did make more effort towards the end. But it's not enough. You had a YEAR to do enough, and you didn't even come close.

Believe it or not, I could have overcome the truth about your past. Even with 15 years of repeated frequent infidelity, body count in the triple digits, knowing exactly what your mindset was during that time because you were stupid enough to write it out and leave it for me to find I could have overcome the great health, safety, and financial risks you put me and your family in because of what you have done. What I cannot overcome is that you continued to lie, and you cannot stop. You have been lying so long you wouldn't know how to tell the truth if you knew what it was. What I cannot overcome is your refusal to do do everything you can to heal yourself, that you want to remain broken, that you are ok with compromising your ability to be a good husband and father. But most of all I cannot overcome that after all you have done, you never once were "all in" and willing to do whatever it took to right your wrongs and earn back my love and trust.

For that, I really have no choice. I have been more generous and loyal than you deserve. I can't do this anymore.

He was humbled, he cried, he was sorry he put me in that place. He stepped up his meetings, his therapy. He tries to be present in the moment, do things without being asked, etc. Is it enough? IDK.

My parents came and visited for a week. It was a much needed reprieve from all things infidelity. And for a change I really enjoyed their visit, and needed them here. Let them take care of me for a while, even though they don't know what is going on.

We had our wedding anniversary. I planned nothing, and actually forgot what day it was. SAWH tried not to show he was diappointed I forgot and asked what we could do o such short notice (three days time), and I said because of a lot of other stuff going on that week (lease up at old house, kid activities, etc) we should just have fancy takeout at home or something. Then I did nothing else. And he showed up with fancy takeout and wine that we enjoyed after the kids went to bed. But it felt at most like a date night and not really like a special anniversary. It's hard to feel more than that when the trust is gone.

I've stumbled on more evidence. I need to stop doing that. His history is way worse than I thought. And it doesn't matter what it all was, a 1000 pound sack of shit does the same total annihilation that a 100,000 pound sack of shit does to the average human being. I'm positive he will cop to it at disclosure, but of course I can't be sure there isn't even more. I need to face the reality of my situation, to quote another post on SI that I am living on the edge of a cliff and it's my choice to be there. Yes, he could be finally all in and he could get better as I get better. But at what cost? At what point do I face that no matter how this plays out, if I stay I am settling for less than I deserve, at least in the short term and probably in the long term.

But I'm already broken. I need to see it through. I need to go through this healing process and see what it brings. It may wind up being a train wreck, but I have to finish what I started. I will emerge from the ashes.

Because I am an idiot.

In the recent discovery, and piecing things out on my own, I've managed to come up with some missing pieces in SAWH's story. I'm fairly certain he will cop to them in disclosure, but it is devastating to find out now - and he doesn't know I know.

I have figured out he has cheated on me every business trip he has ever gone on, as well as some solo trips he went on for personal reasons. That's a LOT of times, when I was home alone with our kids taking care of them so he could go.

Second, I figured out why I can't find evidence for more than one 30 day supply of boner pills for every 90 days. He probably secured large amounts of them on his solo trips abroad. Great, so he probably HAS been taking them every day and from a source that is less than reputable.

Between the facination with phone pix/videos with hookers and the trying to destroy a certain computer...I just figured out there are probably secret pix/videos of me. We made a sex tape once many years ago, and I immediately regretted it and told him to delete it. I know now he probably didn't, and he probably has made more. I can only hope that he didn't upload them anywhere, or use his iPhone during the time that all iPhones defaulted to uplaoding all pix/videos to Google backup, because that means they exist in cell tower backup logs too that I can never delete. This is a tremendous blow not only to the trust issue, but makes me feel incredibly unsafe.

Again, I am confident he will cop to all of this at disclosure but these three things in particular are killing me NOW. These are things that can't be undone.

The only undoing is of me.

This sucks.

As aways, just my .02 & YMMV.

~ Sabina

I think you have handled this the best way possible. You are an inspiration to me.

Stay strong.

(((((hath)))))

I have not posted for a while but wanted to let you know that I am very proud of you -- you are sooooo strong. You are so smart. You are such a good person.

I am 2 1/2 years out and I NEVER got a formal disclosure -- like you, I had to "snoop" to find things out myself. I know how stressful it is to sit on things, pretending like everything is OK, and wanting to just crawl under a rock or lash out -- saying --- this can't be my life -- this is not what I signed up for --- nobody knows how I am suffering --- I feel like a widow and nobody knows it.

Then the feelings of "What if I am making a HUGE mistake?" comes into play. What if I take him back and he relapses?? This is what we spouses of sex addicts go through -- this is what we have to live with if we stay with them.

We give them the gift of reconciliation. We want them to woo us back, make us feel loved, cherished and special. We want the TRUTH. Then when we don't get that, we feel defeated, unloved and devalued.

We can't tell our families because they will surely tell us to leave -- then if we stay with them and our families know -- things will be different forever between them. We are afraid that they will think less of us if we stay. No one truly understands sexual addiction like we do -- our families and friends have not stayed up night after night readng Patrick Carnes, Stephanie Carnes and Marsha Means learning as much as we can can about this cancer that has been thrust upon our lives. Everyone will think they are perverts, not the broken, often-times sexually abused, and intmacy phobic men. They will think we drove them to it -- that we did not sexually satisfy our husbands, so they went to prostitutes (mine did too). It could not be further from the truth.

It was not until I got the courage and the srtength to tell my husband to leave that he came around. I think it literally woke him up. He realized that I could make it without him, and I did not care if people found out. That was three months ago, and things are getting better a LITTLE every day. Have I forgiven him? No. Will I ever? I am not sure if I can.

Whatever happens in disclosure -- you WILL be OK. It will be so hard to hear the words come out of his mouth, but from what you said, it sounds like you already pretty much know everything. Make sure you have something wonderful planned for yourself after that -- or have a place or person you feel safe with so you can process it all (besides your IC if possible). make sure you take care of YOU.

I wish I could take the pain away for you and for all of us.

hugs,

Knutz

I'm still not doing well. I have been struggling with why I don't respond like a normal person, someone who would:
take a Xanax
file for divorce
send the kids to the grandparents
and go on a girlfriends only cruise
and instead do what I do everyday. Why I don't want to kill or hit my WH in the face, etc. How I can still let him show me affection after all he's done, why would I even want him to touch me. And then last night I had a dream I punched him in the face and threw him out, and I was physically ill. It's just not in me to punch someone, it's not who I am. And there wouldn't be any gain for anyone from it.

It's all very hard and no one deserves to go through this. I feel for betrayed spouses everywhere.

There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with anyone that needs a Xanax, files for divorce, or go on a girl's cruise. They are coping in the way that works for them. As long as it is healthy, its a good thing.
You are doing what works for you in a healthy manner. It is normal.

You are so much like me, I love reading all of your posts!
ETA: the rest of my thought

[This message edited by too trusting BW at 1:26 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

I'm still not doing well. I have been struggling with why I don't respond like a normal person,

As a former logical, rational, linear thinker, problem solver, "doer" I just want to add my usual two cents and encourage you to allow yourself to vent and "feel." This trauma catches up to us. I am so glad you have a trusted IC and IRL support. But you also have to allow yourself the occasional meltdown if you need it. It MAY not be you. But maybe it is once and awhile...

I've been plugging away at IC, group C, my S-Anon meetings and this week my therapist goes on vacation. She INSISTED that I call her while she was on vacay. I never call her, unless I have had to cancel last minute (only a couple of times over a year). I never call my S-Anon sisters, I feel weird about phone support to begin with, and it's hard to call with three littles all day and SAWH around all night. It kind of freaks me out she was so insistent to call her. Maybe I am about to go off the deep end because I DON'T have meltdowns.

I've been plugging away at IC, group C, my S-Anon meetings and this week my therapist goes on vacation. She INSISTED that I call her while she was on vacay. I never call her, unless I have had to cancel last minute (only a couple of times over a year). I never call my S-Anon sisters, I feel weird about phone support to begin with, and it's hard to call with three littles all day and SAWH around all night. It kind of freaks me out she was so insistent to call her. Maybe I am about to go off the deep end because I DON'T have meltdowns.

Eh. I am trying to set up routines for good health. My house looks good. I'm eating a little better. But all in all I am not doing well. I have a horrible time sleeping, have a short fuse, lost my sense of self and nothing feels good anymore. I feel like I'm going nowhere.

My IC is sending me to someone to get meds. Something for temporary and occasional sleeping assistance, and a very low dose of a very mild AD. She said I was physically exhausted and my brain/nervous system (and probably other systems too, LOL) were completely depleted and not able to restore levels without some medical assistance. That this is common in people with bad PTSD and it's critical to address it now. She doesn't usually put clients on meds but I need them.

SAWH is trudging along. He wants so badly to do right, but he doesn't know what he's doing. And frankly he's not up to the task of recovery AND saving the sinking ship that is me right now. He's bailing the boat as fast as he can, but he doesn't know how to plug the hole.

So I trudge along, and take comfort in the small victories in my life. It is a valley in my healing, sooner or later it will upswing to a hill. Even if it doesn't feel like it right now, if I keep up the faith and the good work, it will be.

An impact letter is a component of formal disclosure for a sex addict's therapy. Many people think that disclosure is just the SA getting to confess their entire timeline of infidelity and acting out, their coming clean with everything they have done. That is part of it, but also part of it can come from the spouse or others affected by the SA's choices and actions. The point of this is so the WS/SA not only has to admit everything they did in one sitting to their partner, but they also get confronted with the impact of all their choices on the ones they loved. It can be very traumatic for the WS/SA because they honestly usually aren't in a place where they could have seen this on their own. If they could have, they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.

So the spouse gets to write a detailed narrative of how all the WS/SA's actions have affected them. You write it out so you can put it in one place and be able to put it in a format that makes sense. If you tried to do this verbally on the fly, it would quickly dissolve into a emotional mess and not be very productive. Many BS's have had small discussions with their WS about how specific actions have affected them, but it is rare that they lay ALL of it out on the table at one time.

So it is very traumatic for the spouse to compile this. You have to relive a lot of horrific things. Admit all the things you have endured as a result of someone else's choices, someone that you trusted to act in your best interests who failed you. Admit what you have become as a result of what's happened. And face reality in general that you really wish wasn't true.

IMHO it is devastating to the BS as it is to the WS, maybe more, to do this exercise. Especially if the WS does not react in the way the BS anticipates or feels they should. But it is worth the effort, it makes you both face the music and see what happened, and you get some clarity about the path you should take in the future.

So composing my impact letter, which my SAWH has not yet read, has greatly impacted my mood and my general health at the moment. And he can't help me with it specifically, because I need to save that discussion for the actual disclosure process so we both have advocates to help us address it productively. He knows something is terribly wrong, he likely caused it somehow, and he wants to help me but doesn't know what to do. It's a rough place to be in.

So that is what an impact letter is. I will post my actual impact letter in a separate post.

I hate that the person that is supposed to be my very best friend, who knows me better than anyone, has lied to me every day for the past 16 years. And never felt compelled to come clean of his own admission, ever.

I hate that the person who promised to love, honor, and cherish me, in sickness and health, in front of God and 150 of our closet friends and family, and never did any of it. Repeatedly violated his vows to me, repeatedly chose the most raw and serious of betrayals, and risked my life, our children's lives, our future, our finances, our safety to break these vows.

I hate that I have as a result lost my innocence and blind faith in people, and will never 100% trust ANYONE again.

I hate that I chose to marry someone who was never ever fully honest with me from the beginning. Who never intended to be faithful to me. Who lived by a separate set of rules that I didn't know existed, and never gave me a chance to see you as you really were so I could make fully educated decisions about my life.

I hate that you have spent hours, days, weeks, months of time acting out while I was at home pregnant and/or caring for your children. Spending thousands of our dollars to do so.

I hate that I have to tell my OB what you have done to me, see the reaction in her face, and that I need to get tested every year for the rest of my life. That you could get hit with a truck and die tomorrow, that I would still have to do this every year, and that you could kill me from the grave as a consequence of your choices. Worse yet, that I have to tell her I'm still with you after all you have done.

I hate having to tell my lawyers what you have done to me, and they tell me it's always worse than I know. To hear them say that sexual addiction is the worst kind of addiction to happen to your spouse, the most invasive and personal betrayal. That I can look forward to you bouncing between several addictions and continuing to be put at risk, so I have to plan accordingly if I choose to stay in order to protect myself. Worse yet, that I have to tell them I'm still with you after all you have done, that I know all this and am still here.

I hate when I share my story, the reaction of people when they hear it. To see them physically wince, recoil, look at me with horror and pity. I hate even more when it is someone who has already walked in my shoes, and has seen it get worse. I hate that I know it can get much worse, and specifically what all that can entail, and yet I sill choose to risk that it will.

I hate when I read back over my journal of everything that I have been through this past year, how bad it really was and is. That for my own protection, you can never know the full extent of everything I have went through. And worse yet, even if I could, you do not have the capacity to understand it. No one should have this story. No one should every have been through what I have been through this year.

I hate that you have spent thousands of dollars on drugs to do the things you did, and lying and covering it up for years. That now you will always have ED as a result of abusing this drug (talk about irony), and I have to figure out how not to take that personally if I ever choose to pursue a sexual relationship with you. That you have blown out your hearing and put vital organs at risk, and have shortened your lifespan as a result of this abuse.

I hate that you lied to me, even as early as a month ago, about what you did. That you think I couldn't have figured out you've cheated abroad, on business trips, with streetwalkers and transgenders/men, anonymous encounters, group sex, the excessive drug use, the unprotected sex of all kinds, the sex recordings, etc. without you telling me. That you have ALWAYS underestimated what I am capable of.

I hate that I will never be able to trust you on trips away without me again, and that you have put me in a position to place boundaries like no more travel for work, ever, that make ME look like the unreasonable one to everyone else because they don't know the whole story.

I hate that you chose to make recordings of me explicitly against my consent, and that I will never be able to know if with absolute certainty that no one will ever see it again.

I hate that as a result of your actions, I will spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars in therapy and therapy-related activities and doing self care like preparing a post nup, excessive medical care, etc. That is not how I EVER wanted to spend my time and money, both of which are critically tight for me.

I hate that as a result of your actions, your choices, I am going through the absolute worst crisis of my life and I can't share it with my best friend, my mother and father, or my sister because it will forever impact they way they view you, your relationship with our children, and with me. Because I can't remotely risk them exposing our children to that knowledge right now and forever damaging them no matter how noble their intentions and efforts. I hate that I have had to rely solely on a network of complete strangers to get my through this.

I hate that my greatest fear is I am setting an example for our children that it is okay to endure something like this from the one you promise to love, honor and cherish for the rest of your life. Even worse, I fear you are teaching them it is okay to do this to the person you make such promises to. That one day one of them will be a sex addict, and I will find out when they die or are imprisoned, or after some equally horrific event, as a result of their actions that they learned from you.

I hate all the secrecy we have to maintain because of your actions. I live in fear the wrong person will find out, and it will forever ruin our lives even further than they are now. That you will lose your job/career, no one will want their kids to come over, no one will touch us with a ten foot pole. I hate how the general population would assume that it is in some way MY fault you are the way your are, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I hate that even a year later you are still very broken and can't see what you are. Can't see how you treat me. That you still feel entitled and victimized and still stick your head in the sand and pretend you can go on like nothing happened for the most part. That you are still lying to yourself and others, about more minor things, but still lying pretty much all the time without even realizing it. That I can't know if you will ever be able to overcome any of this.

I hate what you have done has made me become, over our marriage and especially in the last year. When I read what typically happens to spouses of sex addicts, I thought that could never happen to me, that only happens to people who choose to stay with addicts that refuse to get help and continue to lie to their spouse. That I would never become the bitter, resentful, crazy person that spouses of addicts can become. But I have. And I hate that I have to reassure myself about things like it is ok that I don't want to violently kill you, that that can be a normal and healthy response. I hate that I envy people who would have taken a Xanax, filed for divorce, sent the kids to the grandparents, and gone on a girlfriends only cruise to vent and plan the ultimate revenge.

I hate as result of this transformation in me, you have compromised my ability to parent. That our kids miss their old mom, the one that was fun and spontaneous, patient and loved them beyond question, that was always there for them and always put them first. Now they have a mom who is often sad or angry, has a very short fuse, has trouble doing fun things with them and lines up babysitter after babysitter to go off to do unknown things that she often comes back even sadder and more unfocused on them than before she left.

I hate that you have made the possibility that I will have to leave you, that I will have no choice, a very real possibility. That you had a YEAR to try to make things right, and you chose for the most part not to. Through the worst of it, I never wanted to leave. But I can't keep living with someone who lies to me.

I hate that I feel like I will never be safe again.

I hate that against all odds, even if we both do everything in our power to save us, and we succeed, I am still settling for less than I truly deserve.

You've been heard sweetie.

You're a strong and awesome woman.

Your impact letter is powerful. I can see how composing it would be traumatic and emotionally draining, but hopefully you also found it somewhat therapeutic to get all those feelings down on paper. It puts into words so much of what I feel myself. My WH is also a SA.. There is only one CSAT in our area. My WH has been seeing her since Jan. I have just started seeing her myself as I hadn't found any regular ICs to be of much help. She hasn't suggested anything like this to us so far. I'll have to ask her at my next appt.

I hope that you are getting some relief with the new meds. Sleep deprivation just compounds everything. You are strong, you are brave, you are awesome, so don't forget it.

This truly made me cry... Actually bawling here.

I hate so much that you are forced to go through all this pain, against your will, in spite of the fact you did nothing to incur it.

I don't cry much, but your impact letter brought me to tears. I have followed your story from the beginning and you continue to amaze me. Your strength and grace are an inspiration to us all. I hope that you will find peace whether you decide to continue the relationship or ultimately part ways with your H.

I also wanted to say that I was reluctant to take meds as well, but was ultimately prescribed a very low dose of Celexa and it helped me tremendously--I was able to disengage my brain more easily from the mess, and it helped me to be a less stressed parent, and to see a future for ME again. I was on meds for a year, and was able to go off them without a problem.

Hugs and peace to you...

IMHO I cannot see the advantages to staying with him.

******(((((((HATH))))))))))********

Perfectly written letter. Very powerful. You are so strong.

I am 2 1/2 years out from dday and just over the last two months my sawh is FINALLY getting it.

I am telling you this because when he hears/reads the letter, he may close up emotionally because of the toxic shame he feels. Toxic shame is a bitch. Give it time to sink in. Try not to freak out if he does not react the way you expect.

I am just so sick of all of this . . . For all of us. Add up all the hours we spend on SI, thinking about what they did, crying about what they did, reading books about SA. . . We have lost precious time with our children, friends & families . . .

Sorry for the t/j & vent . . . Just wish all our pain would disappear.

FWIW, I have been on Zoloft for 1 year for PTSD -- best thing I ever did for myself (and my kids)

(((((Hath)))))

As an aside, I too, used ADs for quite a long time, and still have a stash of ativan that I use on occasion. The ADs had some side effects that I found undesirable so I am now taking an herbal supplement that has similar good results and fewer side effects. We need to take whatever help we can get, without feeling we are weak. We have survived things others couldn't...

I've been to a psych doc to get meds. They have to be ordered so I can't start taking them until Monday. It was brutal having to tell yet another stranger my story, on top of defending some of my other medical choices (which I have to do with every doctor) in other areas of my life. But I have the scripts, that's what is important.

I do not know when the date of disclosure is. His CSAT is on vacation right now so it's up in the air. I have my group therapy and my S-Anon people to provide me support, in addition to my CSAT. I also have a few online friends I can call.

Why do I stay? That is a very good question. I think the best answer is because I am not prepared to leave. I am getting those ducks in a row now. I think after disclosure (and it's more about what happens AFTER disclosure than what he reveals at disclosure), and after the meds start to work, it will be more clear to me what my path should be. A betting man would say the money is on my leaving. Like Knutz said, he's not going to react the way a rational logical person would. He's not going to do everything in his power to make it right. And I deserve better. He could surprise me, but a betting man would not take that bet.

I reread my whole story on here again last night. This time, knowing his full history. Viewing now his actions and what he said with more educated eyes. It was also brutal, being confronted with his lies, the blameshifting, the gas lighting that at the time, I could not see. Because I thought at the time, he was capable of being truthful and capable of logic and rational thought. I do see the abuse, the years of abuse, now. And it is a very good point what exactly could possibly overcome that.

But I have no regrets about the path I have taken. I can tell my children, his mother, pretty much anyone that I honestly did EVERYTHING in my power to save us, everything I could to support him to get better. I left no stone unturned. I can also say that I have done everything I can to SAVE MYSELF. And will continue to do so.

I hear what you are saying about why you have stayed.

Here is what has helped me with my decision to stay -- I thought about what my husband was like before we were married -- what our life was like -- sexually, emotionally, socially, etc. I knew that deep down, under all that shame, all that filth that he was with while betraying me (not as many as yours, but enough to make me want to vomit daily), all the lies, TT, blame shifting, rug sweeping and manipulation --- the man that I fell in love with in 1987 is there.

The problem is --- will he ever come out and will he stay out? Will he betray me again? This is what we worry about constantly.

For me, I waited almost 2 1/2 years for him to come back to me. He is not all the way back yet, but I am slowly seeing that he is getting it.

You have put up with more than anyone should be able to bear, and you are doing SO great.

You've got the prenup -- you're getting your ducks in a row. You're taking care of 3 kids while juggling all this crap. I know how hard it is to not let the kids know what is going on -- crying on the bathroom floor, crying in the car when a certain song comes on the radio, looking at older couples together, holding hands (that one rips me in half).

You. Are. Amazing.

Don't forget that.

We wives of sex addicts are a special breed -- WE are strong. Together.

We wives of sex addicts are a special breed -- WE are strong. Together.

Ahhh, but it sucks that THIS is the reason we have to be strong. I would choose to be strong in the face of other "normal" adversities.

As I look back, I so regret that my entire life was spent with someone who just couldn't love me, someone who just wasn't capable of doing that. I fooled myself and hid the realities of the dysfunction from the world (even as I was unaware of the sexual acting out) YOU are so smart to be making methodical plans based on knowledge.

And yet, I STILL believe in the power of recovery. As you know, I have a son who is a recovering alcoholic. So I have to, don't I? And if our SAWHs work the program in SA, they, too, are capable of long-term recovery. Is it then safe and wise for you to stay with your SAWH? Well, that, of course, is something none of us know. Where is that crystal ball when we need it?
Love to you as you continue in this saga. I'm here if you need me.

I have been taking the meds for a few days. They appear to be helping. The sleep meds do help me fall asleep faster and keep me from waking up so many times at night. The low dose of a mild AD is bringing back my ability to focus and leveling my mood. Both really good things. Both allowing me to develop some more good habits to take better care of myself and my family.

With this new focus, I have delved into the finances more deeply. WH and I have argued about the logistics of our finances for years, and for the past five or so years I've let him handle all of it because I was in over my head with caring for little kids without the help of a SA. I can see where we are, what's going on, and what needs to happen. We've had a few unexpected hard hits this year, and they have put us in the red for overall ongoing expenses. I see short term fixes where I can get us closer to breaking even, and long term fixes to get us back in the black, most of which WH is on board with - in theory.

But what it comes down to is, it is time for me to go back to work, at least part time. We need more income to cover these sudden expenses, pay off the credit in my name, and to pad my safety account he can't access. I need to get back into the workforce and become potentially employable full time, should worst case scenario happen.

I have not discussed this with WH yet. He has not been keen on this in the past. He feels my staying at home is worth way more valuable than the meager funds I could bring in working part time. He also is not in a position to really accommodate me working during regular business hours without significant effort. So I don't expect he will be on board with this new revelation either.

Tough. I'm going to find a part time job, during overnight and weekend hours. A lowly hourly entry-level position with a big company that hopefully will let me work 10-15 hours a week. That will put a little change in my accounts, and set me up with a work history and references in this state. Then, if disaster strikes or after all three kids are in school full time next year, I can make the move to a "real" full time job if I want or need to, probably even with the same company.

I have already started applying, today. IDK when I will discuss it with WH, tonight or when I actually get some responses. I'm leaning towards the latter, because I have enough going on and I'd rather cross that bridge when I get to it.

After all you have been through, a job will give you a sense of control and empowerment. It really doesn't matter what you do.

I am very proud of how well you are doing with all this.

And frankly he's not up to the task of recovery AND saving the sinking ship that is me right now.

^^ This has been the hardest part for me to accept. That Nathan (SAWH) *literally*, *literally* does not have the internal, mental and emotional resources to help me. I still reach out to him for support and understanding & healing- even though I know he can't. I've reached out to family members and friends and shared the truth of my life because Nathan can't support me. He hasn't liked it, and the consequences have been lasting, however I've zero regrets asking for my circle of family to support me. I'm done with keeping his secrets. I'm learning to stand on my own and take care of myself in healthy ways, and even though I had to learn this in a crucible of agony and despair, I recognize that this is a lesson I need to learn.

I hope you can find a part time job to help you meet your goals, both professional and personal. My job has often been my salvation- truly. Perhaps your WH will see job hunting as a loss, perhaps he will react well. Who knows, really? The important thing is for him to honor you by respecting your wishes & supporting your goal. And if he doesn't- then do it anyway because that's you taking care of yourself..

Hugs and Light, hath; hugs and light~ Sabina

[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 10:15 PM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

THANK YOU!

I also got a date for formal disclosure with our ICs. Hopefully that will also happen at the end of the month.

So with any luck, I will have a great deal of peace of mind after Labor Day, and I will only have to worry about the kids starting their new school.

Coincidentally, I noticed a change in SAWH. I mentioned he seemed really happy. And he said. "I am really happy. Why wouldn't I be? I am estatic to be married to you and be a part of this family, that you are willing to give me this chance. I won't waste it. I can never truly right all the wrongs I have done, or make up for all the hurt I have caused you, but I am going to spend the rest of my life trying. I love you so much, I am not ever going to risk losing you again."

I hope I can get to that place in my head. It sounds really nice. But far away.

Just checking in to let you know I was thinking about you. It looks like you have everything lined up.

I hope your husband's attitude, remorse and dedication to you remain constant. You deserve to be cherished.

I wish I could give you a big hug IRL.

Knutz

Full disclosure is tomorrow. Eep!

((((hathnofury))))

Be strong.

At this place, that means SAWH and I meet with our respective ICs (who are both CSATs), so we each have an advocate to keep us on track and keep things productive, not let it get out of control, etc.

The format is fairly simple. The SAWS lists their complete sexual history, including their infidelity with the important, relevant facts but not the gory details. They own up to what the aftermath of their choices have been on themselves, their spouse, and others as applicable. They affirm their commitment to recovery and change, and what that will entail. It's all written out beforehand, cleared by the SAWS's IC first to make sure it is relevant, respectful, productive, truthful, etc because trying to do all this from memory is too hard and too painful for everyone involved. The SAWH reads it in full without interruption.

Then the BS gets ask any questions they have of the SAWS. Their IC has prepped them for what they were likely to hear and what questions they might have, how they'd react to certain information, etc. They start with a prewritten list of questions but can add to it as the SAWH reads their disclosure or if answers are not specific enough. Then they get to read their impact statement. This is similar to what people do in intervention type scenarios, explain how the addict has impacted others by their choices and addiction.

Then the SAWS gets to speak from their heart, and show that the really "get it" how their behavior and choices have impacted their spouse and/or family. They address the points made in the impact statement. They acknowledge what they've done, take responsibility, they apologize, they say what they are going to do to change in the future, etc.

Ours took about an hour and a half. But we powered through, took no breaks, did not take a whole lot of time with the questions part because I had already found out most of his stuff already and I just wanted it over and done. I could easily see how someone could take hours to do this if the BS was being blindsided with dealbreaker info they were not expecting.

His history pretty much confirmed all my suspicions, everything I have listed in previous posts. In fact the only new sexual history info I learned was that one of his trips overseas to buy the Viagra was with his mother, that his mother was present at the purchase, and he told her he was buying the to resell for a profit back in the US. That pretty much shows a little peek inside of how messed up his childhood was and what his relationship with his mom is. I'm not saying this is an excuse, I am just realizing how much I underestimated his FOO issues and what that is going to take to overcome on top of everything else.

The other non-history thing I learned is that he clearly has character issues with honesty, I forget the psychological term the docs used. This scares me quite a bit. There is potential for sociopath type stuff with that, or at least some sort of mental illness. I need more time to process everything before I can explore that further.

I have to say while I was expecting all the items in his history, I was not expecting him to do as well as he did in what I call the "owning your shit" part. There are still some parts he's not totally there yet (like how it impacted his work performance and *I* think the dollar figure he estimated for total costs spent on and as a result of his actions is double), but he did way better in that area than I expected.

It was rough reading my impact letter. I have posted it here before. I've read it in my group therapy before. But it was nothing like reading it to him. And I think it shook him to his very core. I think quite honestly he thought I would leave him today, that it was game over.

His response was also better than I expected. I pretty much told my IC he'd just agree with everything I said, that he had no excuse, and there was not enough words to say how sorry he was. But he had addressed so much of my impact stuff in his "owning his shit" part he had some material to draw from. Honestly if someone read what I wrote to me, I'd be floored and rendered speechless. He did remarkably well all things considered.

I had a lot of questions. Basically they all were answered as I expected. Will expand later.

We talked with our ICs individually afterward. The only real concern my IC had, other than if I was ok after such an experience, was that while SAWH addressed almost everything else in my impact letter, he did not address my statement about not feeling safe. I confirmed I did not remember him doing that either, which was odd because that was one of the first points he addressed when I let him read the letter I wrote (in a earlier post) when I was going to leave. She also asked if I have ever told him why I stay. I told her I didn't know if I could fully explain it myself. That my legal options drove a lot of my decisions in the beginning, and as long as I or the kids were not in danger or being abused, that he was showing forward progress, it made sense to stay. It would take 2-5 years for me to heal, so I might as well stay put as long as it fostered my healing. That didn't mean necessarily I would always stay.

But it would have been a very different story if I hadn't. I truly think if I kicked him out, threatened the D, etc a year ago he would have spiraled down into the abyss and the kids and I would have had no financial security and full custody we have now with the post-nup. So I don't have any regrets for the choices I have made this year. I hate what I have had to endure as a result, but honestly I feel the alternatives would have been worse.

SAWH had driven separately, as recommended by our ICs in case we needed space afterwards. I felt ok afterward, obviously drained, but I told him to wait for me afterward. He asked if I needed my space, and I felt ok. I wanted to leave my car at home and go out to lunch. And we did, and it was nice. He told me his only regret about the disclosure is that between the long prep session for it the night before, and his trying so hard to remember to address everything, that he felt he didn't express the depth of emotion he wanted to. I could see that, but that's also part of his intimacy issues and his FOO. I also told him about the leaving out the feeling safe part. He agreed, he did forget to address that one in the session. He said he wanted to do whatever I needed to feel safe. But my IC is right, his focus seems to be on making me "happy" rather than making me "feel safe". It will have to be something he will need to address in his IC.

So now he has to continue weekly IC, two 12 step meetings a week, and start going to group therapy next month. In addition he has to submit to a polygraph to verify he is being truthful in his therapy, and I get to have questions verified too. I'm too wiped out to even think about that now. But I'm glad it is on the table.

You've accomplished several steps at once, no wonder you're wiped out. Rest, mentally and emotionally. Recharge.

~ Sabina

I am really happy to hear that the disclosure went well for you. It sounds like he admitted to the things you knew (that he didn't know about?), and that he is saying the right things about recovery. I am hoping for you that in time he will blossom in recovery and become a man of integrity.

But my IC is right, his focus seems to be on making me "happy" rather than making me "feel safe". It will have to be something he will need to address in his IC.

I think that in early recovery, SA's aren't really good at differentiating between happy vs. safe. Until they have gotten to the root of some of their own issues they do not understand the concept of emotional safety.

I am just realizing how much I underestimated his FOO issues and what that is going to take to overcome on top of everything else.

Oh yeah, the FOO issues. For YEARS of our marriage, I underestimated the issues, not only in his FOO but I was busy trying to cover up my own. I think that if a "normal" (whatever that means) person would have known the FOO issues my H has, they would have ran the other way instead of marrying him! I know that even almost 3 years into recovery, my H is still dealing with his FOO issues, and I am still working on mine, too. Blah.

So now he has to continue weekly IC, two 12 step meetings a week, and start going to group therapy next month. In addition he has to submit to a polygraph to verify he is being truthful in his therapy, and I get to have questions verified too. I'm too wiped out to even think about that now. But I'm glad it is on the table.

This sounds like a good start. Time will tell if he is serious about recovery now. I hope for you that he is. I also hope that you continue to work on your own recovery and take care of yourself. Keep us updated.

[This message edited by TooManyYears at 5:37 PM, September 1st (Saturday)]

I need to explain something before I can get into a post about the questions I had my SAWH answer. It may not appear relevant, but bear with me. And it is probably something everyone on SI should know, regardless of their sitch.

So when you take pictures or videos on your cell phone, and you send them or upload them anywhere, a copy is kept on a backup database somewhere in the land of cell phone towers and providers. Now you can't ask for those pix without a court order, and from what I understand even that is difficult at best, but they are there nonetheless.

So in theory if you take pictures or videos with your phone and don't send them anywhere, that the only way anyone can access said pix and vids is if they have the physical phone. EXCEPT if they back up their photos with the provider, which may or may not be a defaulted setting in any given phone. Or in the case with iPhones (at least at one time, it may no longer be the case), the settings were defaulted to send all pictures to the google photo place connected to the gmail account required by most smartphones. So when these pix/vids are backed up, they are sent to those cell towers and the backup database.

I was reasonably certain that SAWH took pix and vids over the years of hookers with and without their permission with his phone. It also dawned on me it there was a very good chance he had taken compromising pix and vids of ME without my knowledge or consent, but wasn't sure if it was with his phone or with a camera. The reason that's important was that he had an iPhone when they were defaulted to back up pix on Google. And also when I used spyware for other purposes, I found out the spyware was able to upload his pictures, including some that he thought he deleted. I was petrified there could be x-rated pix or vids of me in a cell tower/database somewhere.

Long story short, he said did videotape us without my consent, but with a video camera and never uploaded it anywhere or copied it. While this provides me some comfort, obviously I'm disturbed he did it and even more disturbed I can't be 100% sure that there isn't a video out there someone could find some day.

This is one of many questions I had to address in the disclosure. But I felt this particular one needed its own post, because I think there are other people here on SI that need to know how cell pix/vids work, and if they could be in a similar position.

Another day, I will talk about the other questions. I'm still processing everything, even though most of it I already knew or suspected. It's rough. I definitely think it was well worth it to have it facilitated by ICs.

Just get it over with already. You've gone through many pages of how this selfish bastard is unworthy of you, and your heroic adventures to save him despite his utter unworthiness. For a while, you were a heroine, you have since chosen to become a public martyr. It is well understood how you want to wring every single drip from the tit of his high income for you and the kids, when are you going to give up the pretense that he will be a decent husband or that you wish to be anything other than a disciplinarian and mother to him rather than a wife? Divorce him already and move on even if you don't wind up being as rich as you want to be.

What you wrote is REALLY offensive. To call hathnofury a "public martyr" simply reveals your complete ignorance of her situation and what sexual addiction encompasses. I generally stay out of other forums than ICR for that reason.

As a caveat, I think very few SA's do recover, and I am quite pessimistic about the chances of recovery for most (because rock bottom is often much further down than most spouses realize), and I DO NOT advocate that spouses stay in such a relationship "for the kids" as I have seen first hand in my own life what living in a household of addiction brings. I NEVER encourage spouses to try and help "fix" the SA, but instead to work on their own recovery.

Having said that, I think hath has taken all the appropriate steps in this situation. She has secured a post-nup. She is seeking out therapy and recovery for herself. She has obtained a full disclosure. Her SA is seeing a CSAT and is saying he will commit to intensive therapy and 12 step. That is much more than many spouses of SA ever get. Will it be enough? Who knows, only time will tell. What about any of this makes her a martyr? That implies that she is passively sitting back and letting life happen to her, accepting that he will act out again.

And for you to imply that she is not entitled to her fair share of his income is sickening as well. My H signed a post-nup when we separated immediately after the last d-day, too. Oh, and I do work full time and make close to 6 figures, but yes, I wanted to make sure that I was financially secure and that our kids got what they deserved. I see nothing wrong with financially protecting yourself as a BS. I wasn't going to bleed him dry, I still wanted him to have a car and enough $ to live on.

For the record, if he gets into a real recovery and puts forth the effort, she will not have to spend the rest of her life as a disciplinarian or mother to him. My H has been in recovery for almost 3 years. He has worked through the 12 steps and goes to group and therapy every week. I am not his mother, sponsor, disciplinarian, etc. I am finally his wife and partner, which I was not for the first 16 years of our marriage.

I think hath has provided a very nice road map for others who are dealing with this situation by documenting the steps she has taken along the way. I don't think she is giving anyone false hope or looking for your pity or condemnation in the process.

We mods are in discussion right now regarding LAFA's post.

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thank you.

SA is more common than we know. And I believe that too many people will be affected by abnormal sexual behavior due to the extremes access to deviant behavior on the internet and the pervasive messages we get constantly in media. Our KIDS are bombarded by this. It's amazing that anyone has a "normal" idea of sex.

You are navigating this with grace and dignity and strength beyond your years. Bless you and thank-you.

We mods are in discussion right now regarding LAFA's post.

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thank you.

Wow. You flatter me, but it's not necessary. He's entitled to his opinion. His response actually says more about him and how he feels about his situation, whatever it may be. I pray that he finds his path to peace too.

I totally understand why someone would ask why not immediately D, given the extremity of what has happened. But again, and I know this thread is TOO long to absorb all the details of what has transpired, the kids are the #1 priority guiding all my actions. Not the "staying for the sake of the kids" kind of motivation mind you. The "get full custody in the post nup" kind of motivations, because sadly I know women who have been in similar or worse scenarios, and their SAs failed to get treatment and spiraled downward to new depths you cannot imagine - and they STILL have to hand over their kids to their spouse for visitation. That makes my skin crawl. Thus yet another reason to go through the full disclosure, so I know what I am dealing with. I have the "get the right to move back to my home state so I can have the support of extended family and friends, as well as my job contacts so I can support my kids in my post nup" kind of motivation. I have the "lay low and see how his IC goes", because it is likely there is other mental illness components that will come to light and I need to know that for the safety of my children. I'm not going to get that info if I leave now.

The money is actually not a huge motivator. The economy is not great. Even with court mandated support, you can't get blood from a turnip. He could get fired/laid off, it has happened before. But I can try to legally push off all the debts that I can onto him. There is not "getting rich" in this scenario, no matter how it plays out. The debts outweigh the income. But it's funny that someone can read my story and think that I'm gold-digger or something. If you only knew, LOL.

TMY, SK, et all...thanks for having my back.

You are handling all this with so much grace. I heard the song "Titanium" and thought of you -- and all of us spouses/partners of sex addicts.

That is all. Carry on.

I know a lot of people like to strongly suggest against sticking around "for the sake of the kids" because often the hostile environment they are subjected to is worse than the potential effects of actual divorce. I think a lot of people assume people in my position live in a hostile environment, kids not withstanding. And some do. I do not, currently.

This is what my kids see now. They see Mom is a lot more like her old self, not completely there but pretty close. They do sometimes see me more short-tempered, but I am way more like the mom they used to know. Not the sad mom who doesn't do as many fun things with them anymore. And go figure, they actually *appreciate* the fun things I do with them more now because they didn't have them as much for a while.

My kids need a lot of structure and solid routines, and the past year has wreaked havoc with that both by design, and because I could only do so much being critically wounded, so to speak. I slowly built those routines back, but accommodated *my* needs for healing in there as well. We are now working on the new and improved routines now school has started.

My middle child has never adjusted well to change, and historically has a really hard first week of school. Especially in a new school. Not the case so far this year. Know why? Because when you go into the therapy of infidelity healing, you explore FOO issues, both yours and your spouse's. When you do that, you can't help but see how your interactions with your children affect their development, and the effects that has on their adolescent and adult lives. So you learn to avoid the same mistakes of your collective FOOs with your children, learn how to be more supportive in their development to have a more positive outcome in their future lives. Because of this, I am becoming a better parent and am better able to help my children with their needs. WH too.

There is no hostility between WH and I now. There was the month after DDay, but we made a concerted effort to not show it in front of the kids. Through the guidance of therapy, S-Anon, and SI wisdom, I have learned to apply the 180 and detachment as needed in my life. I'm also undergoing EDMR, which is a technique that lessens the impact of trauma, which is immensely helpful given the level of trauma I have had. So as all these obstacles were thrown in my path typical of WSs, the TT, the gaslighting, the false R, etc. I have been better equipped to deal with them. Thus the kids didn't see a dramatic change in me as they occurred. They saw a slow improvement in me in getting back to old self.

I've learned to let go of the anger and hostility, because it's not productive. In the beginning, WH would try to "poke the bear" at times when presented with the boundary of having to do the work on himself and the M for me to stick around, but I have learned not to take the bait and deflect it back on him. He has now learned, after finally accepting responsibility, transparency, etc. and is doing the work, to not be hostile as well, even after the kids go to bed.

The kids see their dad more often now. They have always been affectionate with me, but now they are affectionate with him as well. They see him happier, more relaxed, and actually engaged in their lives. They see him treat their mom with respect, and they see him help their mom every day by asking what she needs and doing it. They see their parents be affectionate and respectful of each other. They see their parents putting the kids' needs first, in their eyes, and showing a united stand on that front. I'm not saying WH deserves any medals for this, because he doesn't. This is what any husband and father should be doing anyway, every day. The point is that is what the kids see now.

Does it mean that WH has the potential to become the husband I deserve? The kind of father his children need and deserve? I don't know yet. I see consistent change over time in the right direction. But only time will tell.

Ann Landers had a lot of columns about troubled marriages during her lifetime, and she would always say, regardless of the sitch, "Are you better off with or without him/her?" A year ago, I would have said without him, but I needed to find an exit strategy that allowed me the custody and other legal concerns I needed. Six months ago, I would have said, I'm not sure...he appears to be doing the work but I can't verify he really is (and turns out, he wasn't, not to the level that needed to be done). But I did the work in me, and that spurred the change in him, because he didn't want to be left behind.

Today, I can say yes, I am better off and the kids are better off with him here. Is he the ideal husband? No, but he is trying to be, and he is learning how to be. Can he get there, and fast enough, I can't say yet. Can I get over such an immense betrayal and be able to trust him again to the level that is needed have a successful M? I don't know. It's too early to tell, because that is on me and I am not there in my healing yet. But I want to be able to say I did everything I could to try, even if I can't. In the meantime, we have set up an environment conducive to everyone's healing, and an environment that allows for more successful co-parenting of the kids. And if we can't overcome this, I want us in an environment where the separation has the least impact on the kids, and the least affect on each of our recovery and healing. So yes, I am better off today, but I don't know necessarily if it will always be the case. 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, remember?

SO in a long rambly way, the kids are alright. And if they ever aren't in the future, I will tell you the same thing I told my middle child when she was freaking out during an intense scene of the cartoon movie "Brave":

You don't need to worry, they will all be safe. Because let me tell you, when there is a mama bear involved, and the kids are at stake, the mama bear always wins. Always.