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User Topic: What if...it's rejection?
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, November 5th (Saturday)

I know some have joined our forum in a desperate attempt to get help to salvage a marriage broken by our choices. It is a drive and obsession. It's easy to spot. Every post is relationship related with little interest in self analysis. Self flagellation and denigration are de rigueur. 

I've started the countdown with how long they'll remain in our presence and then vanish either because they regain what they feared they lost or they lose. Either way, no further work is needed.

I have been very hard on this and I'm wondering if also very unfair. I've read quite a bit of Helen Fisher, the anthropologist from Rutgers. She has done some amazing work in the relationship field and attacks it from a very scientific perspective. I just came across this.

She found that losing love is an addiction in and of itself. It stimulates the same part of the brain as an addict going through withdrawals.

"The evidence is clear that the passion of romantic love is a goal-oriented motivation state, not a specific emotion," Fisher said, adding that the results showed that romantic rejection is a form of addiction, and those coping with these hurtful feelings are fighting an uphill battle against a strong survival system.

"There's a whole pathway that when you are rejected becomes activated just as it does with nicotine cravings or alcohol," Fisher says. "These areas are associated with physical pain and decision-making. If you've been rejected, you're in pain, craving this person, trying to figure out what's going on.

Fisher says that rejection causes the neurotransmitter dopamine to wash over the brain, triggering feelings of frenzied desperation that can lead to behaviors such as stalking, homicide, and suicide.

"You crave the person who dumped you," She says "You go through withdrawal, you can relapse, and cravings can be sparked months after you think you've gotten over it."

The good news is that though it may take a while, the researchers say they found that the greater the number of days since rejection, the less activity showed up in the brain area associated with attachment. 

I wonder if the reason some BS's aren't able to heal is there is no number of days. Each day with an unremorseful spouse is another rejection. If the spouse themselves has become linked to that feeling of rejection as an anchor emotion no matter how remorseful they may be just their presence triggers that feeling for the BS.  That anchor emotion has to be identified and replaced.  

I know this is not a supported conclusion, but I'm wondering if the pain of break ups can be as much "fantasy" as affairs themselves. I use fantasy in quotes as it never was a term that resonated with me. Whether something is fantasy or reality is rather pointless if the effects are the same thing and feel all too real. 

If affairs trigger chemicals wouldn't rejection do the same thing? The reason this seems so relevant is how emotionally keyed up we are right after d day, both BS's and WS's. Making decisions, choices, life altering at times, at a time least conducive to any rational thought process. 

I hope that given the pain so many are in they can separate necessary work from outcomes but I'm wondering if given this dynamic if it's possible in the early stages.

Please know if you leave or are not ready yet that you can always come back and start the self exploration. The work will need to be done regardless if you want to be healthy. Cheating is never an acceptable choice. 

Rejection is such a primal fear for some that I believe many feelings caused by experiencing it can be very easily confused with love, hate, on both sides, when it's the rejection itself that is the catalyst. Just my thoughts and didn't find anything that confirmed this. 

I hesitated in posting this because I can understand some would think why would a WS feel any rejection from a BS when they are the cause to begin with. Because that's how rejection works. It triggers reactions that don't need to be logical to exist. 

I feel the 180 and filing for divorce, while it's hopefully not done for any reason other than healthy ones, is viewed many times as a "wake up" for the WS. I would love to believe that and maybe for most it is. I fear at times it creates this exact dynamic and while it may feel good to be hung on to and chased it's not for the right reasons. I'd be a lot happier hearing "if that's what you need to do to heal I understand. I created your need to make that choice.  I'm here and will be for you working on myself" than "I'll do anything to fix this no matter what". 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 10:55 PM, November 5th (Saturday)

UO - I like this post. It goes more into the dynamics of relationships - real love and intimacy v. playing out our issues, insecurities, reactions, fears, etc. Very consistent with what I have read in The Dance of Intimacy about the approach-avoidance dance.

I have seen so many before my marriage imploded who felt very little for a partner, but were propelled forward because they felt rejected. Either due to jealousy from a new partner (for those D or S), or due to withdrawal w/in the relationship.

The BS often idealizes a WS, who may not have been all that (like mine at the end), because of the rejection. Wanting them back more than anything - to ease the abandonment issues, low self worth, etc. or due to our brains hard wiring.

WSs often look at their BS with little regard while in the fog. Maybe feeling too secure when they see the BS's pain and pleading. But once the BS is done, well that "avoidance" can trigger "approach" from the WS.

I now realize that a healthy, truly intimate relationship is only possible between healthy individuals. We play out so many neurotic, FOO, brain chemistry fueled stuff in our relationships. Sometimes it seems marriage isn't about love at all.

I know it can be. So I guess our journey is in healing ourselves and loving ourselves so that we are not just "reactive" beings, but conscious, aware and connecting to others from a healthy place.

Good topic for discussion.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 10:56 PM, November 5th (Saturday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 804 | Registered: Dec 2010
BaxtersBFF
Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, November 6th (Sunday)

Not sure if you meant it this way or not, but I see this as what happens when a WS arrives here after being thrown under the bus by the AP.

Everything you describe and ruminate on seems to relate to my situation and experience with how things ended with MOW.

Also, the statement that (ignoring the word "love") losing love is an addiction in and of itself. It stimulates the same part of the brain as an addict going through withdrawals could apply to me. I don't have many close friends because I distance myself from people who I start letting in. I've thought that it is a basic fear of being hurt, and maybe it is just that, but maybe I have been doing it so long that it has created a physiological response that I now crave. Don't know...have to think about that one.

Looking at this in my M, rejection occurred for a long time prior to my A, or at least that is what I perceived or created in my mind. It was a pre-A issue. Was it really there? or did I create this situation because I had become addicted to the chemical/neurological response which I could then continue to recreate over and over?

Don't know if you were intending this direction or not, but that is what I thought about when reading your original post.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, November 6th (Sunday)

Bax, I was intending it for when ever anyone feels rejected. Whether it's a BS, WS after the AP bounces or if the BS does. That reaction is given so much meaning. Sometimes turning it into an obsession for years when it becomes anchored. 

I think it's seldom the person but the chemicals and trauma created by the leaving.

I know there was a poll in General some time ago regarding if this was the first big rejection in their life. A majority, at that time, said yes. 

I know when we're right in the middle of pain and are overwhelmed by the enormity of it it's hard to entertain any thought process but how do I make it through the day and when will this fucking stop hurting. I was still surprised that some didn't think "hmmmmmm" let's look at this a bit.

If someone has had no experience or even way too much experience without developing coping skills rejection is one of the worst things that you can ever experience in your life.

It's someone else telling you you have no value. At least that's the way it's processed. That isn't true at all. Our value is never determined by another...a parent, friend, employer, lover, spouse. NEVER.

I have a twisted relationship with rejection. I craved it. As soon as I fully comprehended how sick my mother was her rejection validated me. Yeah, some people have issues. I have subscriptions.   

This isn't the case for all for sure. Some recognize, appreciate, heal and grow on both sides. Others cling like their anchor is their life-support...drowning. 

Learning how to deal with rejection should be taught early and refreshed often. It will be used far more than the cos rule.  I await PM's telling me not if you're building something...yeah yeah...hated Trig. 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
helpemegetoverit
Member
Member # 30242
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, November 6th (Sunday)

Very interesting post. I have had many similar thoughts actually, although never could have put them as nicely on 'paper' as you have here. Over the past few months I have reflected a lot on how WS and BS react to infidelity, both on these forums and some real-life conversations. I do think that it is often that what you are writing (how I read it anyway) can be true. As a BS, they sometimes cling to the marriage so quickly after Dday...and it does resonate now that the feeling may be because of not wanting to be rejected. On the other side, a WS can be doing the same, clinging onto their marriage and being 'remorseful' because the rejection of being divorced after they cheated is too much for them to handle. Especially those who have big egos (not self esteem) because it may be rejection of every kind....from their BS to their mutual friends and family.

I do also agree that only 2 healthy people can really reconcile fully. If, in what I said above, a BS is only reconciling for other reasons (that may stem from similiar 'whys' as those of us who cheated ....FOO, etc)....they are not really fully making the choice to reconcile, they are maybe just following the same patterns they have their whole life. Same with a WS who may do the same.

I too crave rejection in some ways due to my upbringing..it's more complicated than that, but this post definitely put down in words some thoughts I have had over the last few months.


Me: WW
Him: BH
Intuition is not a gift, but a skill based in self esteem.

Posts: 872 | Registered: Nov 2010
Strongmama
Member
Member # 33062
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, November 6th (Sunday)

Very interesting! It's spot on too. When STBXWH left me I had never been rejected or dumped in my life? I think I always protected myself from that when I was young and if I ever felt like one of my bf's was going to dump me I'd be sure to beat him to the punch; so this was a total and utter shock. It literally knocked the wind out of me and hurt to the core. In the first few days I was desperate to get him back; couldn't accept that he left...blah blah blah. He was deep in the fog and did not care. So as I started healing and accepting that really why would I want a lying cheater back; he'd been horrible to me for the last year of the M anyways...in the A. Then he saw that he was really losing me and I was moving on so then came him pursuing me; me rejecting him until I decided I had to try to R since he was wantjng it so bad (yeah right:); and then if it didn't work I could move forward with no regrets or what ifs. It's crazy how rejection and desertion messes with our brain. Sorry so long.

Posts: 662 | Registered: Aug 2011
icbtih8
Member
Member # 23797
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, November 8th (Tuesday)

If the spouse themselves has become linked to that feeling of rejection as an anchor emotion no matter how remorseful they may be just their presence triggers that feeling for the BS.  That anchor emotion has to be identified and replaced.

Thank you. This gives me much to think about.


D-day #1 - April 29, 2009

Beauty is a calling...a call "to transfigure what has harden or was wounded within you"
-- John O'Donohue


Posts: 5424 | Registered: Apr 2009
OnlyLonely
Member
Member # 14326
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

Thanks for posting this, I've had many thought on this topic and could never have worded it as nicely as you have.

My M was not good, it started out pretty bad and over the years just got worse. I had one dday under my belt that contained multiple betrayals which were explained as sex only. Was forced to rugsweep and then I went flat.

By the time the next dday hit years later I had endured all sorts of emotional abuse, neglect and out right disrespect. I did not like my FWH and I sure didn't feel any love.

Then I was faced with the unexpected. It was not just a PA but an EA as well and I came face to face with the fog in the firm of a very unremorseful WS.

Suddenly there was the love, I wanted him back so badly and did the equivalent of crawling on broken glass to keep him. I couldn't believe my reaction, I finally had my out and here I was throwing myself at his feet.

But I did come to my senses and realized that I didn't want the crumbs he was offering and left. Suddenly he was the one on his hands and knees. The same person who didn't care if I was dead or alive during the entire A. That too had me confused.

I think this topic is fascinating and I'm so glad I'm not the only one who's wondered about it.


Me: BS
Him: FWH
Married: 18 years

Status: In R


Posts: 7555 | Registered: Apr 2007
onlysolution
Member
Member # 23160
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

Bax, I was intending it for when ever anyone feels rejected. Whether it's a BS, WS after the AP bounces or if the BS does. That reaction is given so much meaning. Sometimes turning it into an obsession for years when it becomes anchored.

Very often, we read about the crazy AP, who shows her 'true colors' when the MM turns his back on her. Rejection hurts everyone and many affair situations had the expectation on the side of the AP of true love and a future. It is no wonder that there is some fairly bizarre behavior on the side of the AP.

I am someone who feels quite sorry for single women who get involved with married men. I am surprised by how our society, especially BW's, want to think of them as another species of women, evil, conniving, without morals, etc. When in reality, a large percent are just people dealing with that 'goal-oriented passion of romantic love'.

I am not saying this to somehow excuse myself and my affair, as I was not single, nor was I ignorant of the dynamics of marriage, the commitment aspect, the ups and downs, or the impact of betrayal. If I could step over that line knowing full well the wide-spread damage and hurt to all involved, how much easier would it be if I were not?

Uncertainone,
Your post has really got me thinking about myself and my inner motivation. What was I looking for and why did I want to reconcile? Rejection was the opposite of what I received and it was not rejection that motivated my desire to reconcile. Was it then attention that I was looking for. To be wanted?

I do also agree that only 2 healthy people can really reconcile fully.

I don't really like this statement. I also do not really agree with the term of 'broken'. It sound to much like there are two states of being, broken and fixed, or unhealthy and healthy. We are all a mixture of these states and a life-long project. We will go up and down or back and forth on these spectrums all our lives.

I cannot look back on my affair and the period after and consider myself 'broken'. In some ways, it was a way of really seeing myself clearly and facing up to some issues within myself.

I use fantasy in quotes as it never was a term that resonated with me. Whether something is fantasy or reality is rather pointless if the effects are the same thing and feel all too real.

I agree with this. I have trouble when people talk about the fantasy of an affair as if the feelings themselves are fantasy. I do agree that the fantasy part is that a new relationship will fix your life, make commitment easy, and make all your problems a part of the past. And, as you have stated here, that BS's or WS's can often become attached to a 'fantasy' after Dday. Emotions totally paint each of our visions of reality.

I wonder if the reason some BS's aren't able to heal is there is no number of days. Each day with an unremorseful spouse is another rejection.

This is a good point here.


FWW: Me 52
BH: 54
Married 34 years
Recovery - Over 4 years

Posts: 448 | Registered: Mar 2009
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

I am surprised by how our society, especially BW's, want to think of them as another species of women, evil, conniving, without morals, etc.

Because it is evil, conniving, and without morals. It's no secret.

AFA the original post, aren't all emotions one chemical response or another. And with only so many chemicals to work with, why are we surprised to learn that rejection shares some of the same chemicals as love? Rejection and love is so closely related anyway.

I just think this is a no brainer. Unfortunately my brain is a bit numb right now so I'm having trouble explaining myself.



The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

emotions one chemical response or another

That's not what the original post said.


"The evidence is clear that the passion of romantic love is a goal-oriented motivation state, not a specific emotion," Fisher said, adding that the results showed that romantic rejection is a form of addiction, and those coping with these hurtful feelings are fighting an uphill battle against a strong survival system.

I think it's a far more complicated thing than a simple emotion. That's one of the reason break-up's, divorce, infidelity has whole sections of bookstores dedicated.

Very complex...very painful to some.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

I am someone who feels quite sorry for single women who get involved with married men.

UO ~ as I am dealing with a stalking OW who was dumped in 2004 and still continues to try to contact my FWH I will be thinking about this and doing some reading on this.

She has just attempted to contact FWH 2 times about a week and half ago after 19 months of NC. FWH never officially "broke up" with her, just eased himself out of the situation. Stopped taking her calls, then changed cell #, never went to places they went, etc. OW has been after him ever since. I didn't find out about the affair until 2010 (you can read my profile), and we never sent a NC letter as we thought we'ld let sleeping dogs lie.

But with the new attempt at contact we want to send a NC letter. Now I am concerned after reading this post. I wanted my FWH to "break up" with her in the NC letter and to tell her NC. Is she going to "crave" him more if she gets a letter like that?

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:58 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8983 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 10:59 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

Ok, there was definitely talk of neurotransmitters as well and that's what I latched onto.
I won't argue against the complexity of it all, it's most certainly is.

The author mentioned being washed in dopamine after rejection as well as "goal oriented". Dopamine is responsible in large part for pleasure and reward as well as to provide the "drive" to achieve those.

So perhaps when we are rejected by those we love, that dopamine rush actually gives us that "moment of clarity" to do what we need to do to get our "reward" back. (goal oriented)
You mentioned that "wake up call" WS get from the 180, that seems to fit real nice here...rejection=dope rush=drive. Is that really a bad thing? I guess it would be if we are talking about the AP here.
I know it's more complex than this.
I know it's a painful process.
I just get excited talking about neurotransmitters


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

as I am dealing with a stalking OW who was dumped in 2004 and still continues to try to contact my FWH

Dopamine deficiency is linked to schizophrenia, maybe she needs some AD's.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

I just get excited talking about neurotransmitters

Doesn't everyone?

Sister, maybe but what's important is his boundaries and his actions. She'll have to face the consequences for those.

I know that Helen Fisher referenced it with romantic love. I don't think love has to be involved at all to have this reaction triggered.

That's why I've never been a fan of the statement "the greater the anger and pain the more they loved the WS". In most cases yes. Not in all. Sometimes it's truly the rejection that's the catalyst for the anger, pain, obsession... As anyone that's ever been involved with an NPD individual knows all too well.

Intensity doesn't equate to love at all.

This may not fit for some at all. I offered it as something to think about. I think sometime pain that's felt at the end of a relationship somehow gives much more merit to the one that left, the relationship, or the degree we loved only to find with distance and perspective it was far more the being left that hurt.

How many "WTF was I thinking" have some felt with time, healing and plenty of distance when y'all look at old break ups?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 11:35 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

As anyone that's ever been involved with an NPD individual knows all too well.

I tend not to include NPDs in most of my thoughts. They really are a rare breed and it bugs me that the title is tossed around so much here.
Not sayin yours is not one, but, you know...not every "POS self centered ass" is one.
Anyway, I'm trying to think about this. Like I said, my brain is awash in so many NTs it needs a rubber duckie!

Do you think'the addiction of rejection' is why some people sabotage their own relationships?
I dont really understand what she was getting at when she said rejection was a form of addiction. Seems like she meant that the partner(or the feelings caused by the partner) was the addiction. And the rejection sparked a panic in the brain at the thought of losing that partner.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, November 8th (Tuesday)

That's why I've never been a fan of the statement "the greater the anger and pain the more they loved the WS". In most cases yes. Not in all. Sometimes it's truly the rejection that's the catalyst for the anger, pain, obsession... As anyone that's ever been involved with an NPD individual knows all too well.

Son of a bitch... I think you just changed my life... Shit!!


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, November 9th (Wednesday)

She'll have to face the consequences for those.
I couldn't care less what her consequences are.

My concern is will our NC letter and my FWH's written rejection of OW send her over the edge and send her to bunny boiler level? Will she amp up her stalking/contact attempts because now that FWH rejects her she now "craves" him more? I know there is no way you can know that, I am just now more concerned after reading this post.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:46 AM, November 9th (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8983 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, November 9th (Wednesday)

SLH, I totally get what she said and I've seen it many times. The rejection is the addiction. It's what you focus on. Why wasn't I enough, what did I not have someone else did, I can't stand the thought of them with someone else.

Think about those statements and what it represents. Love? Not at all. When you love someone you want them to be happy. You don't stalk them, harass them, attack them, hurt them. Even if they hurt you.

What do you think that horrible betrayal triggers for some. The shootings sometimes in front of children, beatings, violence. Do you think that's love and a true reflection of it? Of course not.

It's a life altering driving force for some people to deal with the horrible rejection and the feelings that brings. Those behaviors are written about here on this site connected with infidelity but those behaviors are also present in some break ups and divorces that don't have anything to do with infidelity.

That's another reason I've questioned the statement that's on this site so often. I wish they just left. In some situations the results would have been close to the same.

We had a friend who didn't give two shits about his wife. Treated her with complete disrespect and neglect. She begged for years for him to get help with her. He refused. She left. Not for anyone else. She still isn't seeing anyone else. He's obsessed. Follows her, stalks her, calls her insessently. She's his entire focus. Is that love?!! Fuck no. He's hurt. Period.

He even said to me when I confronted him that he wished she left for someone else. That's the one thing an affair can do. If someone cheats it's never about the BS. If someone comes home and says I want out it's absolutely about the spouse, or a good part of it is.

Affairs ARE NEVER about the BS. That part is very true. There is no reason, however not to take inventory and identify things you'd change regardless of what letter combination you represent.

Yes, NPD is thrown around on here a bit but consider the odds. Truly diagnosable NPD affects about 3% of the general population. Infidelity affects millions. 33,000 are registered member here and I I recall correctly about 6,000 may be active members...I may be hugely off here, but there is no reason not to believe that there could be a fair amount of spouses of those lovely people represented here and still be far under those statistics.

Either way, people with very NPD traits exist all around us and without addressing them the results and damage are pretty fucking close.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, November 9th (Wednesday)

Thanks UO,
That makes more sense now.
Those first two paragraphs cleared it up.

NPD points....fair enough.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, November 9th (Wednesday)

That's another reason I've questioned the statement that's on this site so often. I wish they just left. In some situations the results would have been close to the same.

Damn, girlfriend! You've hit the bullseye again!

I have seen this situation on this site. One partner leaves (confirmed that there was no infidelity) and the other partner feels every bit as "betrayed".

Affairs ARE NEVER about the BS

Worth repeating over and over.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, November 9th (Wednesday)

UO - Have you read the book "The Journey From Abandonment to Healing"?

I fully understand your pointand I've come to believe that the rejection issue is at the core of many of those feelings we ascribe to love. What I came to personally understand was that the rejection/love was actually about old abandonment issues that I had...that I think *many* people have in some form or another.


When you become willing to give up the idea of the fairy tale prince, you no longer have to kiss frogs - or eat poison apples...or be locked away in castles...or even be home by midnight.

Posts: 7650 | Registered: May 2005
Faithful w/Love
Member
Member # 33128
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, November 9th (Wednesday)

I get this post, I totally do. From Dday, it was the rejection that I could not take. You go all those yrs together and then you are pushed to the curb left at home to do what we do, cook, clean, take care of kids, sit up til 5am watching you get dropped off by OW, then that happens week after week. It was him leaving me in tears to spend quality time with OW right in front of my face, it was the rejection that made me a mad woman, it was the rejection that made me want to scream and beat someone. Its all about being rejected and knowing they (WH) did not care until he wanted to do damage control. Then repeat it again and again. How can someone reject their spouse knowing what it feels like? Why would you do that to the mother of your children, why would you do that to the woman who always supported you, why would you do that for some cheap ass when you could have gotton it at home, why did you disregard me like I was nothing, just trash that you put out on the curb? That is rejection and that is how it feels.
So I understand this whole post because I always told my therapist that, it was the rejection and still is that killed me.
And to who ever said that they feel sorry for the single OW... OMG.. whatever, the single OW are the ones that come to your home and fight with the WH in front of your kids and you have to call the cops, they are ones that feel they own your WH and text you all the time that you have to share your WH, they are one that text your WH just because they know he is suppose to be with his family, they are the one that call BW out of their names, and tell the WH not he better not be sleeping with BW or else. They buys gift and then text you that they want them back because they are fighting... Sorry, the single's one are the fatal attraction one that have NO SELF WORTH OR RESPECT. They are looney.


BS(ME)40 WH(HIM)37
DD 19 and DS 15
Separated Aug 2012
Moved back home Oct 31 2013
False R. Still Lying.
Will be divorcing soon!
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have"!

Posts: 2459 | Registered: Aug 2011
onlysolution
Member
Member # 23160
Default  Posted: 4:54 PM, November 10th (Thursday)

Think about those statements and what it represents. Love? Not at all. When you love someone you want them to be happy. You don't stalk them, harass them, attack them, hurt them. Even if they hurt you.

This is a huge thing. I do think it so very sad when people who onced loved each other are set on destroying each other, no matter whose 'fault' it is. I have aquaintances (an OW and a now divorced man) who I just watch in dismay at all the anger and bitterness they have towards xBW and the fighting and court battles they have had over children and finances. Both blame the other and the children have suffered so much over their immature, self-centered behavior. And that goes for both of them.


FWW: Me 52
BH: 54
Married 34 years
Recovery - Over 4 years

Posts: 448 | Registered: Mar 2009
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, November 26th (Saturday)

Bump for a friend.

(sorry it took a while, it showed read, for some reason but I didn't. Just saw it)


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
WhiistleSt0p
Member
Member # 29762
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, November 26th (Saturday)


This touches on something for me, but I'm not sure how to articulate it. Only recently have I become aware of our ability to "put" people in our lives in a certain place within our reality.

I saw it more clearly in another poster when replies indicated a question of 'moving' the person in your mind.

I was aware in my previous marriage (in which I was the WW at the exit) that I was relegated to a "place" in the life of my ex (not an ex at this time I'm speaking of). That this place of former mutual respect, had, over time, been replaced with resentment.

I had spent years trying to steer him back to the respect, but during these years I had 1 child that died at 10 days (he did, too), 1 miscarriage, and 2 children to add to my workload, a new home, our company merging with another, 2 inlaws passing, my father having heart bypass.

We both were beset on all sides with pressure, and I turned to him for comfort which he was unable or unwilling to give. He had become more selfish and spending money like no tomorrow, yet he balked when I suggested him getting a 2nd job or helping me more in the house (he did a little more finally).

I tried to do this feeling alone, no one to talk to, to understand, and he did not want to go to counseling. I think now his resentment grew to such a point that by the time D-Day for him struck (it was the same day I asked for a divorce) - that I felt he and our M was beyond repair.

I did not want to stay and work on things, because I was exhausted from working on them for years to no avail. I was in a place of calm and peace in asking for D. I would rather him not have been in such pain, but I felt anyone in my place would have given up before now. There was no way to tell him he needed to detach without him going through pain...although I suspect a lot of his pain wasn't about me -- it was about losing his home, his wife (face for society's sake), his children (he wasn't a terribly good caregiver later), his whole life was crumbling.

Hindsight might tell me that maybe before the A, we should have tried separation, but I wasn't really under any delusions of marrying the AP - I just backed off everything to get my head on straight.

It felt it was taking everything I had to keep the calm I had to work hard to keep, support our children, hold down our home (after he broke door facings and such) -- I had nothing left to give him, and even if I could have helped him, he saw every. single. crack. as a way back in, and that was NOT what I wanted at this time -- we both were too broken and I just made it pure hell for him.

I genuinely wanted him to reject me, because I truly felt it would be much less painful than living with him. I didn't want to be responsible for ANYONE else's happiness at this point. I just wanted to get through this ocean of crap I created, and I couldn't rely on him. He'd already proved that on numerous occasions that I had asked for help.

I don't want this kind of drama.

The kind of heart/gut-wrenching sadness I experienced as a result of WH calling his old girlfriend, at first, I could not cope with the feeling of rejection. I completely shut down until he explained 'what happened.' I am 15 months out, and still vacillate, although I think I will eventually offer R.

I guess still being here is a sort of R. If I allow it, there is this pool of pure pain that I occasionally stick my toe in, that causes me to rethink my vacillation on staying/going.

Crave rejection? Not me. Life is too short for me now. I'd rather move on than experience any more pain than I already have.


I wish you peace, and calm moments, a perfect flower bloom or ray of sunshine. Allow pieces of joy to warm you on the inside, and put one foot in front of the other.

Me: BS 53/FWW 2001- in my prev M
Him: WH 65
OW: 64 (Phone calls for high sch


Posts: 1782 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: OKC
worst-year-ever
Member
Member # 33003
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, November 26th (Saturday)

The OW in our situation was a predatory home wrecker. She went into this fully intending to destroy his marriage and distance him from his children. She knew me, she knew I was pregnant, she didn't care. She only wanted what she wanted and was perfectly content to help him destroy everything in his life to get it.

There is no way she could have truly ever loved him, not if she was willing to destroy his life.

How can someone actually feel bad for that? I don't understand.

[This message edited by worst-year-ever at 2:05 PM, November 26th (Saturday)]


Me: BW
Him: FWH
4 kids & 20 years together
DD: 7/7/11
OW1: 3yr+ LTA
OW2: My xBFF
Trying to R

Posts: 1282 | Registered: Aug 2011
WhiistleSt0p
Member
Member # 29762
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, November 26th (Saturday)

WYE,

I'm not sure I understand your question.

No matter what OW was (predatory homewrecker) or what she did (fully intending to destroy his marriage) isn't it your WH that did not protect you and your M?

She could have no power unless he gave it to her?

As far as her 'not feeling bad about that' remember 'the fog' allows both of them to put blinders one because it's not reality based, it's fantasy based.

They are able to turn away from so as not to see the pain and destruction.

You're right. Someone that loves another will step aside and let them sort out their life and M, not help them destroy it.


I wish you peace, and calm moments, a perfect flower bloom or ray of sunshine. Allow pieces of joy to warm you on the inside, and put one foot in front of the other.

Me: BS 53/FWW 2001- in my prev M
Him: WH 65
OW: 64 (Phone calls for high sch


Posts: 1782 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: OKC
worst-year-ever
Member
Member # 33003
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, November 27th (Sunday)

I was just responding to the prior poster who felt bad for OWs.

The OW in my life very much so set out to try and ruin my life. She was jealous of me and wanted what I had, husband, house, kids and all. Even said that on occasion.

It was completely my fWH's job to protect our marriage, and I am not, nor will I ever, exclude him from fault in that department.

And yeah, he gave her that power. Hell, he gave her everything she wanted it seems like. The only thing he didn't do was leave me at the end of the day. (He took her on trips, let her stay at our home when I was gone, even proposed to her with MY ring).

My point was just that OW who go into these affairs knowing the WH is married are not deserving of sympathy in my opinion. I don't care about the "fog" at all, I think it's just an excuse. JMO

[This message edited by worst-year-ever at 10:46 AM, November 27th (Sunday)]


Me: BW
Him: FWH
4 kids & 20 years together
DD: 7/7/11
OW1: 3yr+ LTA
OW2: My xBFF
Trying to R

Posts: 1282 | Registered: Aug 2011
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 12:01 PM, November 27th (Sunday)

worst-year-ever...

This thread is not for BS's to vent on, please respect the spirit of the thread and this forum.

Thank you.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 192050 | Registered: May 2002
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, April 5th (Thursday)

Bump for a friend. Can't find the other one. I don't save them. Be well.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
cissie
Member
Member # 17637
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, April 5th (Thursday)

UO
You always write such thought provoking post. I have not read the whole thread due to time constraints.
I have felt rejected for a lot of my marriage because I did not measure up to my BH's standards, and I married him under false pretenses.
He has rejected me sexually and intellectually.
I have never written that before and it gave me a really strange feeling.

What I am now working on now is trying not to feel rejected while living together for at least part of the time.


Posts: 502 | Registered: Jan 2008
openbook
Member
Member # 12331
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, April 5th (Thursday)

Excellent post UO, thank you

I am afraid that my H and I have one of the sickest distancer/pursuer relationships on the planet. I can't think of a time that we were ever really on the same page.

I think we are both starting to see it for what it is. The biggest problem I guess for me at this point is that I still believe in families staying together. I still believe that it is best if we work out our individual problems and find a way to come together in healthly and mutually satisfying ways.

And I love him. I truly do. I desire for him to feel good, to be happy, to grow and be fulfilled whether I am in his life or not.

Sigh!

thanks again for this thought provoking post!


Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. ~ James Thurber

Posts: 2706 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: SoCal
openbook
Member
Member # 12331
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, April 5th (Thursday)

That's another reason I've questioned the statement that's on this site so often. I wish they just left. In some situations the results would have been close to the same.

I totally agree. Breaking off the relationship is the biggest betrayal of all. IMHO. How could it not be?


Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. ~ James Thurber

Posts: 2706 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: SoCal
threw it away
Member
Member # 34727
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

Breaking off the relationship is the biggest betrayal of all. IMHO. How could it not be?

I think my husband would have been better off had I left him early on, rather than putting him through this. My sorrow and grief would have been great, but he would not have felt the cumulative loss he feels now.


me: ww/34
him: 33, has initiated divorce
married 8 years, together for ten
kids 7 and 4

dday 1 - 12/17/2011
dday 2 - 1/26/2012 (my past multiple affairs revealed)


Posts: 112 | Registered: Feb 2012
openbook
Member
Member # 12331
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

(((threw it away)))

I'm sorry.

I guess I was only speaking from my own experience in recognizing how much I hurt my H when I left.


Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. ~ James Thurber

Posts: 2706 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: SoCal
threw it away
Member
Member # 34727
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

Don't worry. It's just that there is an additional level of pain for my husband, having found out after many years of what he thought was happiness. It's worse for him because he thinks that those years of his life were only so many falsehoods, and it's worse for me because I so want to prove to him that we did have so much that was real, and cannot. I think this happens with many who find out late.


me: ww/34
him: 33, has initiated divorce
married 8 years, together for ten
kids 7 and 4

dday 1 - 12/17/2011
dday 2 - 1/26/2012 (my past multiple affairs revealed)


Posts: 112 | Registered: Feb 2012
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

UO you have a way with words, unique and valuable.

Dopamine, addiction and desperation and rejection; I think these all play a part for all at some level and for some period of time after D-Day. Having been on both sides of this jacked up shit I believe that all of these have played a role for me.

We are very complex and you can point to each of those and assign value to it or use it as an excuse/validation/justification or just point and laugh or cry or my favorite; stare with a “WTF” look on your face. But we can’t stop there, that is scratching the surface. Some will use this site as a validation or social network and when it doesn’t do those things for them they will drop off. That’s ok, this whole honesty and real feelings hard core stuff isn’t for everyone, I have avoided it my whole life and it’s embarrassing to me to have failed miserably.

I believe at the end of the day (Long Term) our success or failure in life and or fidelity or whatever will be more affected by the principle of totality, basically taking all things mental and physical into account. Not a rush of Dopamine or anything else. Will some not take the journey because the dopamine wore off, absolutely but that probably wasn’t the only reason they stopped.
Short term, I am remorseful and want to make it right.

I started this process after being busted by believing that BW would divorce, so the decision I made for me was make it right and be honest and fix my shit so this doesn’t happen again for me or anyone because for the first time it was ALL about me! Not in a good way.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

You're right. I read your post a few months ago when you first posted it, and it strikes just as deeply how true what you wrote is, UO. Ever since I read your post, I've seen it everywhere: this desperation to "get someone back", even if this person is totally unhealthy for you. I remember doing this with my abusive ex. He was completely unhealthy for me, and for ten months I kept going back. Hearing the term "abandonment issues" touches on it somewhat, but it seems like a broad sweep, almost dismissive. Yeah, it is a really deep fear of many people (myself included) to be "abandoned" by the people we care about. Maybe it's loneliness, or maybe it's tying too much self-worth to another person - specifically to the constant presence of another person. Like you said: chemicals. Chemical reactions. Like the same ones in an affair.

Thank you for writing this.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

Dopamine, addiction and desperation and rejection; I think these all play a part for all at some level and for some period of time after D-Day. Having been on both sides of this jacked up shit I believe that all of these have played a role for me.

I understand that, hardlessons.

Like I posted earlier somewhere on here, I've had a twisted relationship with rejection. It somehow made me feel safer, stronger. I can understand why to an extent. I'm learning more about how much that said about my detachment rather than anything else.

I am finding that as I do open up and experience anger rather than rage and hurt and pain I'm finding it's oddly reassuring. Like, phew...at last. A feeling that somehow feels...normal.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, April 6th (Friday)

I am finding that as I do open up and experience anger rather than rage and hurt and pain I'm finding it's oddly reassuring

It is very different. Typically with anger I shut down as I was shown that that is not a good or positive thing to express. Now when BS is expressing anger/hurt/pain I just take it in and listen, but it is soooooooo uncomfortable its like standing there holding a big box and I don't know what to do with it.

Dealing with emotions are like learning Swahili. Anger is also something I don't know how to feel in that I try not to get angry as I feel I will get out of control. Problem with that is that it comes out in different ways like sarcasm which I have sometimes been known to express myself, inappropriately.

So as the begineer with hearing and speaking with emotion positively do you just sit with it at first and take it in, observe? Sounds stupid I'm sure, but once I do either I am just sitting there thinking "Now what?" like waiting for the sky to fall or to see a pig flying..


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
Hugemistake
New Member
Member # 35073
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, April 9th (Monday)

This is a very interesting thread.

UO. I can see how my love for my siblings would make me want them to be happy but in the case on my OP, I was jealous when she told me she was seeing someone after the A. ended.

I need to try to understand what it was about the A that made me feel so alive. The passion, the danger?

Why do I still harbour thoughts about OP? Is the fact that we work together an ongoing rejection which makes reconciliation with my BS harder?

Even seeing her makes withdrawal more intense.

I have a lot of work to do.


Posts: 33 | Registered: Mar 2012
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, June 5th (Tuesday)

Bump... Because I need it


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
Jensay8400
New Member
Member # 35042
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, September 11th (Tuesday)

bump


Me/FWW(SA)-33
Him/BH-32
Married 12 years
DD-14, DS-7
D-day: 8/28/2011
Working towards R
** Everything you say and do,
is a reflection of the inner you **


Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Midwest
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, October 12th (Friday)


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
bleemoveson23
Member
Member # 36523
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, October 12th (Friday)

uncertainone

such a great post.

Someone posted about how you changed their life with this post...you really did change my thought processes, as well as on various posts I have made.

Sometimes the amount of anger doesnt mean the amount of love, it really is JUST ANGER. I have to accept that and stop seeking some kind of hope in any statement. in fact, I need to stop seeking anything from BH. I need to focus on what I can control, ME.

I will admit alot of times I have wanted to quit, just say "fuck it" because whats the point? But the changes I have pushed through and made, really arent for BH, they are for me and my son and for my life.

I need to keep focus of that, and keep on moving along. Do I slip up? Yup! But I know I can be strong and do this, work on myself so that I can be a stronger, healthier me.

Saw this quote and it works perfectly:

It does not matter how slowly you go, so long as you do not stop.

~ Confucius

thanks uo.


mothertobabyE-28

"don't judge me by my past. I don't live there anymore"


Posts: 265 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Long Island, New York
sosorryididthis
Member
Member # 36727
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, October 12th (Friday)

edit

[This message edited by sosorryididthis at 1:51 AM, July 23rd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 188 | Registered: Sep 2012
cissie
Member
Member # 17637
Default  Posted: 4:42 PM, October 13th (Saturday)

Glad to see this post again. I am still here.

This is a very "deep" post.
I have said to my BH for many years, that I am not a normal person. I am very poor at picking up clues and understanding emotions and relationships. I originally explained it as being almost autistic, in that I had something lacking in my perception.
There is a lot in this post and answers, that I do not fully understand. I understand that I can feel almost comfortable in being rejected, because I feel that is my role.
However, I do not understand this sentence

"If the spouse themselves has become linked to that feeling of rejection as an anchor emotion no matter how remorseful they may be just their presence triggers that feeling for the BS. That anchor emotion has to be identified and replaced. "

Can someone please explain it for me?

Posts: 502 | Registered: Jan 2008
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, October 14th (Sunday)

Cissie, you know how smells, tastes, songs can take you immediately back to a time or event? That's because they're anchored. It was a big enough trauma or joy that now has become anchored together. That song and that event.

Often I see here, and completely understand by the way, we become anchored. If waywards become anchored to that horrible trauma of rejection, rage and pain every day is a dday. Every walk through the door is a fresh affliction of pain and hurt.

Some have very successfully seperated their partner from their actions and while it will never be forgotten have anchored them to other things like the work they've done, the progress they make, the good things they're building.

Your husband hasn't and won't. His anchoring has worked for him. Please don't let it work for you.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
cissie
Member
Member # 17637
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, October 14th (Sunday)

" By George I think I've got it" Thank you.

So he sees my infidelity every time he looks at me and cannot (or will not) replace it with something else.
I, on the other hand, must not allow myself to become fixed in this position and should concentrate on the work I have done and the improvements I have made.


Posts: 502 | Registered: Jan 2008
thegooddokta
Member
Member # 35641
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, October 15th (Monday)

Rejection from the AP when the A ends, followed by rejection from the BS when its a deal breaker. This explains why I feel like Im dying inside. My neurotransmitters are desperately seeking some homeostasis that they can't find. This explains why i pick fights with BS/WH and am so devastated by the multi RAs hes had and decision to D....its rejction upon rejection. Ugh.


Me- BW 43
Him- WH 35
1stDday Dday 4-19-12
Married 9 yrs
Divorce sched for June 2013
2 kids 5 & 8

W/H-currently has a new girlfriend. We are still living in same house.


Posts: 118 | Registered: May 2012 | From: CT
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 12:01 AM, October 17th (Wednesday)

UO

Great thought provoking post. I keep discovering “Onions in mirror are larger than they appear.” I may have peeled another layer as a result of your post.

I think the fear of being alone, aka fear of abandonment, aka autophobia, was a great factor in the decision making for myself during initial reconciliation, and for my wife during her affair, and for both of us during our entire marriage prior to DD. Yes, I think we were plagued with it.

Prior to DD, I had never seriously thought about being alone, and I had never experienced it. There wasn't much divorce or death in my family tree growing up. I became instantly terrified of the notion of being divorce and being alone due to its unknowns and lack of considering it. The choice to reconcile enabled both my wife and I to avoid the pain of being alone, at least temporarily.

It wasn’t until after SI, MC, and IC when I started seriously considering that "being alone" was still on the table, but at the same time, SI, MC, and IC gave me the additional strength and confidence I needed to properly deal with it and process the pain. For my wife, it wasn’t until after 8 months of IC and daily discussions with me about her affair before she was willing to tell me the whole truth of her affair, and accept responsibility and the possibility that I could leave, in fact, she expected it. Accepting being alone was still possible and processing the pain from it was the end to our suffering from it. I suppose for some that are unable to process the pain, they could be left possibly believing, and even become fixated on a belief, that their only path to happiness is through reconciliation, and when failing due to the shallowness of it, could become angry, bitter, and even vindictive towards each other. As for the brain chemistry and irrational decisions, sure I suppose, during the traumatic periods.

As for my wife, it gets very complicated. I know that if I spent 24/7 attempting to understand her, I would fail. I try only for the purposes of adding clarity to my picture. My quick research netted a discussion on autophobia (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/fear-of-abandonment.html) My wife's personality was strongly extroverted prior to DD. This article describes her almost to a tee before DD, except she is passive, not assertive, passive aggressive. I originally thought her onion center was low self-esteem but this article seems to paint a clearer picture for us. My WW lost her mother in a car accident, 6 older siblings one at a time as they flew the coop, rendering her alone with a nasty father and step mother. This step mom was my wife's father's AP which he married within two months of my wife's mother's death, and the AP, turned step mom, was a classic evil step mother who degraded my wife on a daily basis during her adolescent years. Having experienced this during her childhood, upon DD, my wife stated that she thought she had lost me. But it was two kids in travel soccer, greater responsibilities at work, longer hours, greater chores, drinking, smoking, hobbies, -but in reality, they were only lowering my attention, not my love. And for me, attention, affirmation, communication, -these were Greek to me as love languages and unnecessary.

Enough rambling. Great post UO.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

My dog farted, startled himself, wondered where the noise came from. I wish my life was as simple.


Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
My_Name_Is_Alice
Member
Member # 34646
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)

I'm very late to this thread, but it really helped with an issue I've been having lately, thanks UO! If the reaction one has from rejection can be so easily mistaken for love, how is it possible to know if either spouse really wants R or if they both just fear rejection? I guess I've been wondering lately whether my WH and I really love each other anymore or if both of us just so desperately don't want to be the one rejected. How can you tell the difference?


Me: BW (38)
Him: WH (37) (MyNameIsDoug)
Married in 2004, living together since 2003
1 son, 6 years old
DDay: ONS on 10/23/2010
In R cause I have nowhere else to be

Posts: 89 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Pittsburgh, PA
everycloud
New Member
Member # 38102
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, February 20th (Wednesday)

great posts..rejection and fear of abandonment..i fear rejection and i'll do anything to prevent it but at the same time I'm used to it as something I've known all my life.. not something coming fron M but since childhood..maybe knowing not to be worthy of real love.. when i changed my mind, got stronger and told WH to leave, rejected him, he lost his assurance, was his turn to fear rejection and begged me to let him stay..he said he didn't think this would never happen, our roles were fixed, me the rejected, him the boss...sometimes I think marriages, not only mine, are a fight.. my H needs to think he's the leader, maybe not to face his frailties and fears..as long as I'm frail he may see himself as strong.. if I change the roles what will happen to him? When I rejected him I shook the basis of his life, of the way he saw himself as someone who dictated the rules.. he could reject others (OW too) but not viceversa.
Do we really love each other or we are simply trying to cope with our old deep fears? Can't say now.. have to think about it


Every cloud has a silver lining

Bs 58=me
Wh(?) 60=him


Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: EU
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, February 24th (Sunday)

Bump...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, April 6th (Saturday)

Bump for Brokenheart.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, May 11th (Saturday)

bump for some new members


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, May 11th (Saturday)

This is it. This was the post you made that made me realize it was all about chemicals. The same dynamic for rejection, is the same dynamic we can learn to understand and overcome in order to give ourselves permission to fall out of love with someone who hurts us.

Thank you, UO. Here, yours is the post that helped change my life.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, June 26th (Wednesday)

Bump


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, June 26th (Wednesday)

Amazing post. Whoever bumped it is my guardian angel for the day. Thanks...needed that. Badly...


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, July 11th (Thursday)

bump


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6162 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
Faithful w/Love
Member
Member # 33128
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, July 11th (Thursday)

That nailed everything I just posted... Thank you Jana for bumping and thank you UO for writing this.


BS(ME)40 WH(HIM)37
DD 19 and DS 15
Separated Aug 2012
Moved back home Oct 31 2013
False R. Still Lying.
Will be divorcing soon!
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have"!

Posts: 2459 | Registered: Aug 2011
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, July 11th (Thursday)

I really learned something from you today.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts.

It helped me articulate a little over in the Gen Forum on the "shocked by A or no?" thread.

Even as a BS, I can sympathize with ANYONE feeling the pain of rejection. I'm happy to know so much of it is chemical. Now if I could learn how to kick nicotine maybe I could tackle kicking love next?

Sorry, shouldn't be joking. I think some days I have hysterical happy because I spent so long being sad.


Posts: 524 | Registered: Jun 2013
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, July 19th (Friday)

bump again


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6162 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, July 19th (Friday)

This is one of my all-time faves...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 6:52 AM, August 20th (Tuesday)

Ba-Dump-Bump


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)

Bump...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
crazyblindsided
Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)

I wonder if the reason some BS's aren't able to heal is there is no number of days. Each day with an unremorseful spouse is another rejection. If the spouse themselves has become linked to that feeling of rejection as an anchor emotion no matter how remorseful they may be just their presence triggers that feeling for the BS. That anchor emotion has to be identified and replaced.

I think this is the a-ha moment I needed. Thank you UO! I can't believe it!


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
In R
"If it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth." -Carl Sagan

Posts: 2250 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Rereading this sage post, especially this part:

If the spouse themselves has become linked to that feeling of rejection as an anchor emotion no matter how remorseful they may be just their presence triggers that feeling for the BS. That anchor emotion has to be identified and replaced.

So true. The addiction has become the anchor.

eta: CB had the same insight.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:42 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Spelljean
Member
Member # 35624
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Thank you for this post. It has really helped me figure out the dynamic of what was happening with my WH and I, and his rapidly cycling over the past year between me, and OW...committing to OW, then me telling him no more and dumping him. Then WH is back trying to win me back, and OW is rejected. Then he tries to win her back and goes MIA on me again. This cycle repeated itself 5-6 times the past year.

Curious though--17 years of zero drama and this crazy dynamic starts. Is it something that could be dormant in a WS possibly for many years, then its triggered by the thrill of an affair?


WH: 41
me: BS, 45
Together 18 1/2 years, married 17
DDAY 8/2/12
OW: EA- friend of 4 months
Status: separated

Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2012 | From: California
HURTAGAIN1981
Member
Member # 35178
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

http://www.professional-counselling.com/how-to-deal-with-rejection.html

Hope this link helps. This post really helped me too so thank you UO!


Posts: 296 | Registered: Mar 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, September 27th (Friday)

Bump


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
outtamymind
Member
Member # 33607
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Thanks UO. I know I've come across this post before. I've been on SI long enough, how could I not have seen it?

I tend to get distracted easily, and long drawn out posts tend to lose me quickly. I guess I have a touch of ADD.

I wish I had read and re-read this much earlier...as I just did.

I think you've touched upon something here that has been an issue for me my whole life. I have a very difficult time dealing with rejection, no matter the circumstances. It doesn't even have to be a relationship. It could be anything.

I think this is why I started the relationship with my first girlfriend. She dumped me in 1988 after I had saved my money, booked an apartment, and flew thousands of miles to see her. I was blindsided by it. It shocked me. I couldn't understand why she did it.

I have been asking myself why would I go back to her after all those years had passed? Why would I look her up? I had only dated her a few months in 1988. Why would I have carried that torch for 20 years?

This has to be it. There is no other logical explanation.

Thank you for posting and bumping this. What a revelation.


Me: FWS 45

Divorced and still trying to figure out why I was so crazy for so long. I do know this however: lies and deception lead to unhappiness.


Posts: 228 | Registered: Oct 2011
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I'm very late to this thread, but it really helped with an issue I've been having lately, thanks UO!If the reaction one has from rejection can be so easily mistaken for love, how is it possible to know if either spouse really wants R or if they both just fear rejection? I guess I've been wondering lately whether my WH and I really love each other anymore or if both of us just so desperately don't want to be the one rejected. How can you tell the difference?

Great post...I am even later to this party then the above member was.

I don't see where that question was ever answered...any ideas? We don't have a counselor as of lately....thinking about ordering the book mentioned.


It seems the more I work on myself the more questions I have about myself. While in counseling I was surprised to learn that I have a fear of abandonment and took some work to answer YES to the question....Does Blake love Blake?

This whole rejection feeding chemicals into my body in similar fashion but in replace of love has me thinking about my interactions with my wife over the years........certainly plays into how I reacted upon my DD....but also speaks to how I was so willing to do what I did over the past 3 years specifically.....as she pulled away and I stuck with it (no insistence of change, no talk of counseling, always thinking it will get better when)...both of us doing very unhealthy things to each other and our marriage...but neither recognizing our actions as such.

Is this post to suggest that I have somehow become addicted to rejection sometime during my life? I get that I don't have any role models from which to learn what healthy love and intimacy is to look like, feel like....but am I EMBRACING rejection?

That is why I am so very curious as to the response to the above series of questions.

I am simply amazed at how this self-journey continues to surprise me...even more amazed at how vast this new world is.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:05 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012 by 1 email to OM...OM did NOT respond.
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not yet incurred...may never incur.

Posts: 2706 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I guess I've been wondering lately whether my WH and I really love each other anymore or if both of us just so desperately don't want to be the one rejected. How can you tell the difference?

And I'm even later to the party, but just my two cents...

I think there's something to this, but IMO this would be a very short, temporary state. I can't see fear of rejection alone keeping the marital R afloat for more than a couple of months, if that long. I mean, at some point if you don't truly love someone anymore or want to R with them, you would figure that out pretty quickly once the initial fear of rejection subsides.

I don't have the title "Dr." in front of my name, but this seems like common sense.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1033 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:51 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I think there's something to this, but IMO this would be a very short, temporary state. I can't see fear of rejection alone keeping the marital R afloat for more than a couple of months,

This wasn't abou the fear...the rejection is already "here" and it can cause absolute chaos. Not temporary or short at all, in fact some never recover from it.

I honestly think its a bond much stronger than healthy love. Most dysfunction is because of the feeling of loss of control.

When you're healthy and end a relationship for whatever reason, sure there's sadness and grief. The outrage? The years of pain? The desire to kill, maim? There's something much stronger at work there. A real feeling of loss of self and the entwined accompanying link to the other person as the thief.

Think about this. Living with someone that is an alcoholic. Risk to family? Huge. Not from an STD that will hit the partner, but the actual risk to everyone it the car, on the road every time they drive drunk. Their spouse often knows and while they do suffer the leveling of all they are or thought they were doesn't happen each time they do that, does it? Pissed? Yeah. Miserable? Of course. The compulsive stalking FB, computer, phone logs, loss of sleep, weight, psychologically viscerated, not so much.

Why does an affair cause the unreal pain whether the spouse even touches another? Really think about that. Think it's all about love? If so wouldn't letting go be so easy as true love isn't about owning or possessing.

If the spouse had come home and said I want out I'm betting high in a majority of the cases you'd see much the same responses. I've posted about an acquaintance that used to live across the street. The wife tried for years to get them help and him into anger management. Nope. She finally left. There was no one else. In fact, no one else for years. He fell apart. Damn near killed her and himself. Said to my ex, "God, I wish there was someone else. At least I could blame them". Yeah, pretty telling statement. I'd rather live in a tiny one room appt than a 3700 sq foot home with pool and game room in a nice location than with you. No web redemption for that one.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
GeauxTigers
Member
Member # 28301
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I wonder if the reason some BS's aren't able to heal is there is no number of days. Each day with an unremorseful spouse is another rejection.

Yep. My favorite line of a great opening post. Thanks U1!


Sigh... how did I end up here?

Posts: 1379 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Nashville
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, September 27th (Friday)

It appears to me this would be easier if there was a smoking gun such as flat out abuse, alcoholism, drug use, orgies, etc. in my marriage...but there isn't any of that.

Not saying less painful, but easier to understand....kind of like He does things that altered his behavior...or....She was verbally abusive to me....sort of thing, something that could more clearly link the overall pain to, the overall disfunction too. KWIM?

I am just 1 year out from my DD...right now I have processed through the betrayal enough that I am looking intently at myself and my role in a troubled marriage prior to my wifes A.

It appears as if we were two nice people....or equally mean....or something trying to swim against a current we didn't know even existed.


We both knew what we DIDNT want....that is we didn't want to have a marriage like we saw in our parents. Congratulations....goal accomplished. Our marriage is different....but it is not healthy.

Over the years we both got glimpses of trouble but we didn't address them.....maybe FOO issues at play, maybe our parents as a point of reference was our lighthouse, maybe our lives outside of our marriage was busy enough to distract us....I just don't know. I think this is precisely why some therapist steer clear of looking into our past and troubled childhoods...a person could get lost there!


Now, here we are. We know better, and kinda desire to do better....but doubt, fear and pain interfere. Maybe they ALWAYS interfered, and we just now see it?

I like this post...but still wrestle with its meaning and validity of that meaning to our marriage.

Regardless if I use what is posted her to better myself...I do appreciate the thoughts it generates.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:10 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012 by 1 email to OM...OM did NOT respond.
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not yet incurred...may never incur.

Posts: 2706 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
sodamnlost
Member
Member # 37190
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I''m way late to the game here. Was reading journey from abandonment to healing last night and then spent an hour trying to find this post. Really wondering (not for the first time) if when WH says he wants out marriage, what he REALLY means is he doesn''t want to be rejected and alone. That''s a sad reality to look at and try and discern. If I apply the fear of abandonment/rejection filter through WH''s actions since he drifted away from me 4 years ago to now - it makes SOOOO many things make sense.

It would explain why he chased his AP with such reckless abandon when she gave him mere kibbles. She clearly let him know he wasn''t that important to her over and over in his 2 year affair yet he wouldn''t let go. It would explain why he was in "love" with someone who, under normal circumstances, WH wouldn''t even want to have a conversation with. It would explain why he says he is in love with me and I just don''t see or feel it. It would explain how he was able to watch me dying emotionally for over a year, telling him I needed the truth, and he kept lying. It would explain why when I broke down from the weight and asked him to leave he held on even tighter, not seeing what he was doing to me. It would explain why I could cry and scream for him to just see me and he just clung to the idea that he wanted to stay.

So much to ponder in this post.


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's not a fluffy pink unicorn squirting liquid rainbows, complete with pots of gold out of it's ass.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Nowhere pretty
Topic Posts: 79