Yet I wonder; at what point can or should I tell her to stop hurting me? I know she does this out of vengeance and these moments are just phases she goes through during the course of a day right now. But am I entitled to even mention that she is hurting me with her words?

Or should I just be a grown man and let her words blend in with the perspective of what betrayal I have brought upon her... When can I ask her to "please stop"?

What helped my BS along with many others is to agree that you acted like a selfish prick/slut/whore but would like the opportunity to prove you're not really that person deep down.

This phase can last for days, weeks even months. As for telling her that her words hurt you, I think you can and should but with the qualifier that you understand why she feels the need to lash out. If she still lashes out at a year or more out then, yes, I believe you have the right to pull the trigger and end the relationship. Yes, we WS screwed up big ime, made a very damaging choice and caused a lot of pain but that does *not* give our BS the right to heap abuse on us for the foreseeable future.

Now, my BH still does have times where he says hurtful things. However, he has tried not to call me names as he recognized that behavior wasn't helping either of us. When he is really upset and starts in on the raging he tries to redirect and do something more positive,like punch his punching bag or take some space from me.

I have noticed that the more I validate his feelings and do not get defensive the less likely he is to start raging and make hurtful comments. I think this is because I am acknoweledging the pain he is feeling and so he doesn't feel the need to "show" me with his hurtful words.

Yet I wonder; at what point can or should I tell her to stop hurting me?

What is the timeline for what you did, to stop hurting her?

I will have to say, I've done a pretty good job of being nice to my H during the 4 1/2 years of our R so far. However, there have been days/times that this wasn't always so. And the 2nd year, wow, I didn't know I could say the word Divorce that many times in a row and not actually BE divorced (in some countries, we would be).

She needs you to know how hurt she is. She needs you feel a little bit of the pain that she feels. She also needs you to feel as sick about your actions as she does. She needs to know that it hurts you that you've done what you've done. This is part of what we call "getting it". However, you can't fake that. You can't force it. It will come when it comes. And once you get it, and you feel what she's feeling, you will start to feel and say those things about yourself that she is saying, and you will mean them. Hopefully, not too long after that, will come the work on forgiveness. Yep, you'll have to forgive yourself someday for this mess you've made.

But listen, you have just ripped her heart out and slaughtered it in front of her, so she is going to be angry at you for quite some time. Hopefully she doesn't hit the "real" anger stage a few months down the road from now, you better buckle up then! But there is a certain amount of this that you own and should take. Should you accept her calling you names and insulting you in public or in front of friends/family/children? No, absolutely not. You need to gently let her know that there is a time and place for this, and this is neither the time nor the place. If she won't stop, you have to have a plan to exit safely. What I mean by safely is, you have to have someplace to go, be it in the same house, in the car, at the mall, etc, but it must be someplace where she can trust you to go and nothing "funny" is going on. Don't call or text anyone other than your wife while your gone, and show her your phone immediately when you get home if you must leave. Text her pictures of what you're doing and where you are. They might tick her off now, but later when she calms down she'll appreciate the effort.

You also don't need to tolerate violence.

But if she's just calling you names and telling you how you crushed her, let her get it out. It will calm down after a bit. It always helped me when my H would tell me how he felt about himself in those terrible moments I was having. It helped me understand he felt bad, almost as bad as I did. And that made me feel safer. I needed to let out my heart, and have reassurance that I was safe, and he did that for me.

But dude, you really have to hang on for a long time and hold on tight because it's going to be messy, long, and crazy!

I would bring it up in MC if you are currently attending, it's not going to help your marriage rebuilding.

Yet I wonder; at what point can or should I tell her to stop hurting me? I know she does this out of vengeance and these moments are just phases she goes through during the course of a day right now. But am I entitled to even mention that she is hurting me with her words?

What exactly is she doing?

Your BS *needs* you to witness and acknowledge her pain and acknowledge that you are the cause.

THIS. I know I hurt my WH but I had to stop worrying about hurting his feelings. He did this, he thinks he is as shocked, outraged and as hurt as me about it (its not about more its just different).

I agree with doesitgetbetter too - you do need to have boundaries here - repeated public sprayings out of the blue and where it escalates to unwarranted verbal abuse - ZERO VIOLENCE). But you also need to have thicker skin. You did this, you need to own it and the pain it caused.

My WH can't be my healer. I need to do that myself. I need to heal from this whether we end up together or not.

What he can do is help me and himself help our M. By doing the work on him FOR him. Not for me.

Let her know how much pain it causes you that she is so much pain. Keep telling her how sorry you are for what you did to her and showing her your remorse. Your words mean shit right now - she needs to hear them but its your actions she needs more. Let her see your tears and your anguish. Don't ask her to make you feel better. Don't ask her how you can fix this. Don't get frustrated or angry.

Take her pain and feel it deep inside you. Try to imagine how hurt she must be to be lashing out like this. I can tell you she doesn't feel good about what she is doing. She hates that she is this person and blames you for making her this person. It won't last forever. DDay was so very recent. IMO you need to adjust your expectations here and focus on making her feel safe to feel these feelings, not focussing on how yuck they make you feel. I don't have a lot of empathy for my WH - I am too busy feeling sorry for myself and licking my wounds to attend to him right now.

My WH told me his single biggest regret about all of this is that it has fundamentally changed me. I will never blindly trust him or anyone ever again. That is something he cannot undo. He said it cuts him deeply him that his actions killed that in me.

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 9:03 PM, June 9th (Saturday)]

What exactly is she doing?

ETA:
Was just following up on threads I posted on and came back here. Gotta say, that is an awesome username remorsecode. It works on so many different levels.

[This message edited by aesir at 1:21 PM, June 10th (Sunday)]

A WS must work on healing the marriage, but first and foremost, they must work on healing themselves. Having to do both at the same time is a long uphill battle.

A WS must have compassion, empathy, and boundaries. Only you can decide where your line is going to lie.

I should have drawn my line much, much sooner. I think giving my xBS/WS permission to spew ugliness carte blanche ended up eroding my self esteem and self respect to the point that he slid unchecked, into much more violent episodes. He ended with repeated physical abuse and numerous revenge affairs.

I think repeated, unchecked verbal spewing is largely unproductive.
It is understandable, and sometimes even unavoidable. If you are truly trying to R, it does not serve to attempt to tear down your WS in order to make yourself feel better.
If you are trying to R, it does not serve to ignore or walk away from your BS (unless they are out of control) while they are in agony.

It is one thing to make vicious statements about the actions of your WS. It is another to make vicious statements about who your WS is as a person.

I can accept vicious statements about my actions, as long as they are true statements and not exaggerations. I will never again accept someone else defining who I am as a person because of my mistakes, especially mistakes that I was/am/will be (etc) working hard to overcome. I won't say fix, because there is no fixing.

You cannot undo your past. You cannot fix your actions. You cannot take away the hurt, pain and anger.
But you can decide, mutually, from this point forward to work together as a team, as partners, to get to a better place.

I like to imagine it as two people walking along a path, strewn with dangerous obstacles. Quick sand, land mines, sharp grass, thorns, etc.
They have a canteen. Sometimes it is full of water, sometimes it has some but not enough, sometimes it is empty. They must share the canteen as they travel.
The WS must help the BS through this landscape, while attempting to plot a course out, set up camp, start a fire at the end of the day, etc.
Maybe the WS deserves to do it all, while carrying the BS through this landscape.
Maybe the BS has some work to do as well.
Can the WS carry the BS and do all the work while being continually lashed out at, while the water from the canteen is being poured out on the ground when it is their turn to drink?
Maybe for awhile, but probably not forever.

At the end of the day, I guess the most important thing is, what kind of marriage do you (both) want at the end of your journey? What are you both willing to do to get that kind of marriage?
If your BS says I'm not willing to do anything at all, you did this, you fix it, while continually lashing out for months on end, I guess you have to decide if that is helping you and helping the marriage or if it is detrimental. Some WS can and have put up with this and worse and at the end came out with a good marriage. That is their choice and it worked out in the end for them.
I chose to leave. Others on this board chose to leave as well.
Are you fighting for the marriage you had or the marriage you want? And is it a realistic goal, in line with what you both want?

After 2 months, the anger and the lashing out is completely understandable. Only you can say if it is over the line. Only you can decide how to deal with it.
I would advise MC and IC for both of you.
Hurting people tend to hurt other people.
Sometimes they can get through it themselves. Sometimes it keeps them grounded in the pain and anger. Sometimes they end up damaging the other person further.

If she is saying things that are true, then you need to own it.
If she is saying things that aren't, then don't. Just a simple, I can understand why you are saying that, but ....this is why it's not accurate. Or however you think is best to finish that statement.

[This message edited by notthesum at 8:37 AM, June 10th (Sunday)]

Can the WS carry the BS and do all the work while being continually lashed out at, while the water from the canteen is being poured out on the ground when it is their turn to drink?
Maybe for awhile, but probably not forever.

This^

You have to decide what you can deal with and what you can't. Having said that, I think that two months is just the tip of the iceberg.

If it feels like venting and processing anger, that's probably what it is. If it feels like abuse, then that warrants a conversation at the very least. Anger can linger for a while. That's just part of the consequences we have to face.

Is she in IC? Are you? She may want to look into trauma counseling and/or EMDR.

I think repeated, unchecked verbal spewing is largely unproductive.

This! Because of what notthesum posted above it. It can get addictive.

When some are the victim of horrific actions of another most times it's a hit and run kind of thing. The victim doesn't get the chance to retaliate or any retribution.

In some affair situations with a remorseful WS that "opportunity" can create an unleashing of rage that will morph the person experiencing it and the "meekness" of the target that inflicted such brutal carnage in their life can escalate with the "power" some can feel they're reclaiming.

You can see it here, at times. The posts of "if they don't like it they can suck it". That's all well and good if the person can handle the "suck it" option and don't care about rebuilding.

2 months is very new. It is your responsibility as you heal to keep yourself safe. You can do that while showing her empathy and compassion, in fact in some ways that's how you show that. Calmly enforcing boundaries that don't allow damaging behavior to herself and you. Unchecked rage is very damaging to the one experiencing it.

You can detach from that and remove yourself from the situation until there are calmer minds. While one can have productive conversations with someone that's angry not with someone that is enraged.

It always outraged me when my XH even implied I was hurting him, because what are words compared to the devastation of an A? What helped us was a suggestion from a previous MC, which are "time outs." If a conversation got too hot, one of us could request a time out. This isn't a hall pass out of the conversation, just a moment for tempers to cool. You have to revisit the conversation no more than 30 minutes later.

So maybe when your wife starts losing her cool, you can request a time out, let her know you have heard her, understand, and want some time think it through. Maybe you two can agree on a length of time that works for you.

Hope this helps!

Unchecked rage is very damaging to the one experiencing it.

It's my opinion that it can be damaging to BOTH sides - The one expressing it AND the one receiving it. I would submit that anger when dealing with the devastation of infidelity is normal. And even occasional bouts of blinding rage (I had them myself). When I would experience those moments in months two-four, they were literally physically exhausting, and a little scary to boot. I am not by nature an in-your-face kind of person but I got that way when the rage would surface. And it startled H and I both. To my WH's credit, he listened, and he apologized, and he kept calm and talked & held me through those few rage-filled times.

But when it's at that level constantlyand/or for extended periods it does everyone involved harm.Just my opinion.

Tell her that it hurts you, but be willing to carry some of the pain for her. She needs a way to release her justified anger. Your patience and understanding will help tremendously.

when you look behind those words and see the fear,lack of trust, pain ,and tears you created in her thats when it is unbearable. She has lost her foundation and her best freind . I think when I fully realized that I if I had not had the SI people and counseling i may have not made it. I know when she is talking even if it is hurtful words she is still healing. When she is curled up in a ball witdrawn and shaking she not.
keep fighting for her . Risk your pain for hers. We are all here for you and her.

My point is, that your betrayal is still hurting her inner soul and will continue to do so for quite a while. As long as she is hurting herself, I guess that she might hurt you from time to time.

You can make a shortcut however. Own what you did, take full responsibility, work on yourself, work on the marriage, and let her feel that you are doing so.

I am 14 months past D-day, I still get angry with my wife (not rageous, but angry) and when I do, it is almost every time because she tries to blameshift or downplay her affair - and oh, when she tells med that I should get over it by now.

You must show her by all your actions that YOU GET IT.

I believe it when people say 2-5 years hard work to get over it, but like I said, you can make a shortcut to keep it in the lower end.

My best wishes for you both.

Time heals nothing. It's what you do with that time that heals..or doesn't

I'm not almost 40. I'm $19.99 plus shipping and handling. And insurance.

Sometimes, the person you would take a bullet for is the one holding the gun.

Your comment really isn't helpful. Please be respectful in this forum.

At first... At some point blaming doesn't help. Acknowledgement of wrong doing happens, venom is expelled and the BS has to realize if they want it to work they can't keep up the verbal beatings. This in not blaming the BS. It is a just a basic fact of any relationship. Why would someone stay if they keep on getting beat up?

I am not sure if you two are in MC or IC. If not you may want to give it a try and focus on communication. Another idea is to have you BS read about blame and communication. It can be a communication method in an of itself.

take care...

I am friendly, polite and respectful by default, as well as have been patient with her false R, but when she tries in some way to demean, ridicule or prop-up her affair or her affair partner/his stuff, she'll get a mouthful of truth, despite it being likely painful stuff for her to hear.

From a BS perspective, the affair hurt enough all on it's own. Any additional damages done with minimizing, blame-shifting, gas-lighting or otherwise will be met with all that pain PLUS the new pain from the current mechanism/technique being employed.

Think back to the last time you had to deal with the onslaught... what brought it out? What did you or didn't you do? Is there ANYTHING you can think of you may be able to do (or not do) that may help in some way or lessen the chances of the next hatred spree?

Good luck!

I can promise you that she NEVER wanted to feel this way about you and she never wanted to speak to you or hurt you. It's a reaction to the deepest betrayal and pain.

Just let her get it out. She'll stop bringing it up when it stops hurting.

If anyone else has this problem, I wish to say a reason the BS'es emotions are intense is that we tend to see all of the ramifications of an affair all at once, in 360 vision.

To a WS, this BS pain and anger seem to be jealousy and wounded ego. It's quite a bit more than that, including the BS'es anger and pain over the belief children have been betrayed, as well. We can't even decide if we wish to just walk and leave if we have kids at vulnerable ages, and a WS having an affair and continuing to lie rather than just leave has dumped the responsibility on the BS to make that choice to hurt our children by leaving it up to us to file for divorce, if we so choose, and that makes us also angry. We are angry at ourselves for being such stupid fools. We are angry we didn't know you at all. Part of that anger is at ourselves for being such fools to trust, and part at the WS for being the kind of person to deceive.

A WS can't see all of this if coming off a fling that seems just a bit of a rough patch or mistake. The ability of a WS to compartmentalize, as during the affair, and the fact a WS is not directly on the receiving end of the injury makes it difficult for a WS to see how this mistake and what he or she sees as a hidden little fun on the side or friendship that went "too far" actually changes a marital relationship forever.

Reconciliation is not always about anger and recrimination and being unhappy. People reconcile. They are happy again.

But it changes things and affects a BS'es choices in the future and view of the marriage and safety in that marriage. I once sacrificed a lot for my spouse. I moved. I didn't buy things for myself. Now, I see he wasn't grateful or even recognized those as compromises I made for him, since he was so grateful he had an affair. So I don't sacrifice much anymore. In the past if one slice of cake, or one delicious piece of chicken was leftover, he could have it and I'd have a sandwich without complaint. Now? If I see it first, it's mine.

There is a great deal of innocence and complete trust that doesn't come back. Ever. We don't go around snooping forever or crying if you stay five minutes longer than anticipated at the store. But once you've taught a BS that she's "not all that" to you, the BS is unlikely to see the marriage in a romantic light. It hurts to lose that.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 3:58 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

To a WS, this BS pain and anger seem to be jealousy and wounded ego. It's quite a bit more than that, including the BS'es anger and pain over the belief children have been betrayed, as well"

Sweet Jesus. Do you really think you can speak for what a WS understands about what and where the emotions BS's are experiencing are caused? Do you honestly believe that somehow those exact feelings can't be felt by some WS's as well or at least understood?  God!!!! For some here the rage, pain, and lashings that are delivered after d day aren't much different than those before. Difference is now, they're earned.

And, for some BS's, rejection IS a very large driver of that. I cringe when I see some of the phrasing on this post and some others, "accept being a punching bag. Let the BS vent their rage and pain on you it will stop when the hurt stops". Bullshit. For some it becomes an addiction and it feeds the need for more. It will never be enough. The wound too deep. The pain too great. Each lashing just creates a guilt, hunger cycle that soon loses the guilt aspect. Some BS's here have honestly posted how little they thought of their WS's prior to the affair.  Some were shocked they could find someone else that would find them attractive. Where do you think that pain and rage comes from, in those situations?  Some sacred love trashed by the WS's fucked up choices? Hell, no. Comes from rejection and sadly the added outrage of being rejected by one you felt was beneath you to begin with. 

The pain a BS feels is available in almost every other post in every other forum but fun and games and off topic. Do you truly believe most of us don't get this? Do you not read the self condemnation bordering on ending some lives of some of the members here? 

Remorsecode, hasn't been back. I hope they're working through it and that's why. 

Remorse, if not, come back and reach out for support and ideas. Many wise members have been through this and have worked their way back to each other. Some have worked through to a successful life separately. Put a stop sign, if you need. Yes, you can say enough and draw your boundaries, in fact it's critical for your growth and healing to ensure your safety if you are to ever become a safe person to be with. A very wise member, and I apologize I can't remember who, said she felt reassured when her WS did that because it showed he was growing and making healthy choices. 

And, for some BS's, rejection IS a very large driver of that. I cringe when I see some of the phrasing on this post and some others, "accept being a punching bag. Let the BS vent their rage and pain on you it will stop when the hurt stops". Bullshit. For some it becomes an addiction and it feeds the need for more. It will never be enough. The wound too deep. The pain too great. Each lashing just creates a guilt, hunger cycle that soon loses the guilt aspect. Some BS's here have honestly posted how little they thought of their WS's prior to the affair. Some were shocked they could find someone else that would find them attractive. Where do you think that pain and rage comes from, in those situations? Some sacred love trashed by the WS's fucked up choices? Hell, no. Comes from rejection and sadly the added outrage of being rejected by one you felt was beneath you to begin with

With all due respect, I totally disagree with you. Had I EVER been able to ONE time let out the anger and hurt, JUST one time, I believe that my entire life would have been different. I sucked it up and kept my mouth shut so that I wouldn't rock the boat.

I was not an abusive or neglectful wife. I resent your insinuation that the WS anger comes from rejection. I waited up every night for my WS to come home. The house was clean, I massaged his neck, back, feet. I put gas in his car, stroked his ego, fixed the messes he got us into.

My WS is just sick and abusive and that's why he cheated. His cheating was not about me. For the record, I'm 5'8" and in great shape, damn attractive and intelligent. Great cook. Servant's heart. I did not, in any way, deserve what he did to me...and I'm sure that holds true for a lot of BS.

Just my thoughts and I will not be disrespectful on this forum. But I believe you are very wrong.

Never ever utter the phrase "can't we just move on from this?" or "Can't you just let it go?" or best yet "I can't deal with you constantly bringing it up, I have to move forward with you not backwards!" and the creme de la creme, "You need to let it go! It was a long time ago!!"

Ok..you see my DDay(s)..how long is to long? When WS said the last one to me a long time in his mind was about 2 months post dday. Could have been 2 days. I'm sure any WS would LOVE LOVE LOVE thier BS to just "get over it" but it's not going to happen on the WS's time, but on the BS's time.

Physical abuse is never ok, many of the BWs in here have found themselves slapping the face of the BH or in my case throwing a styrophome cup full of soda (i'm not real violent usually lol) at him, and even tho its not ok, there is a temporary insanity that forms when you have been hurt so violently and so deeply as an affair. Its the sort of pain that I can not even describe.

The best way to describe it is this. You child or loved one is hours late getting home. You've called multiple police, and hospitals. That sick panicked, crying pathetic on the floor praying that you might have done. Every car that passes by the house but isnt theirs sends your heart falling into your stomach at 100 miles per hour and it HURTS. You beg God, you pray. You are so not incontrol of anything. You have all these images of them hurt or dead. Panic, pure panic. I have these feelings every day. They aren't hours long anymore (the first month they were), they come and they go, some fleeting. Always sickening. Like suddenly i have been slapped in the face and punched in the stomach when 2 minutes ago i was fine. This occurs every day to me, and many times per day at that. Atleast i'm no longer in bed unable to work or cook or even comb my hair.

Knowing your spouse cheated on you, slept with someone else, did things to them that you thought were YOURS alone. The betrayals, the lies, the pure torture. This is how it feels. A rollercoaster ride where they forgot to strap you in and all you can do is dig your toes in and hold on for dear life. NO joy in that ride at all, its all about SURVIVAL. Its horrible.

And it lasts for YEARS. Ask me about my first DDay. Took 10 yrs for me to stop thinking about it. I have no idea what these DDays are going to do to me!

Its been 3 months and today was a bad day. I get my feelings hurt at the tiniest of arguments. I am emotional. One minute i love him, the next i hate his guts. I can't drive past one of the hotels for instance (only one i have no idea why that one bothers me so much) but it surrounds our favorite restaurants which we can no longer visit.

Its insanity, pure insanity. I hate it, today i told him I actually HATED my life and wish i had divorced him with DDay number 1 and that maybe my kids might have turned out better, that I may have found the man who would REALLY be there and love me forever. But instead i'm sitting there with him...hating him (today). Tomorrow i may be just fine.

It sucks, but if you want your BS to stick around, you will have to grow some thick assed skin.

[This message edited by Angelstar5 at 10:47 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

I resent your insinuation that the WS anger comes from rejection

I'm assuming you meant BS. I didn't say all. I said some. You can clearly see it. It doesn't matter where the BS anger is coming from. What matters is how a WS deals with it and what choices they make to deal with this.

Look, this is the wayward forum and what seems to be missing here sometimes is the focus on healing.

There's the "do anything and take anything to make up for the damage caused" focus, at time. Take everything that's dished out and understand that's the price to pay.

I understand right after d day there needs to be an understanding of the shock, the anger, the pain that's quite understandable.

In order for a WS to heal and become a safe person for the BS, if they choose to stay together, or for the children, themselves, they need to make healthy choices and part of those choices are establishing self respect. An affair is the antithesis of any form of self respect. So is allowing behavior from themselves and others that is destructive.

Drawing those boundaries is also a way of taking care of the BS. If you love and care for someone allowing them to engage in behavior that is self destructive is not someone you will do. Being abusive and lacking self control is damaging to the person doing it as much as it is to the person that's receiving it.

Yes, easydoesit, your WS is sick, unremorseful, and will not change. He doesn't post here looking for help and guidance. Others do and this forum is a life saver for many of us that reached out to veteran WS and given tools to help rebuild or build for the first time the necessary boundaries and limits to what we will tolerate from ourselves and toward ourselves.

Many WS's know the damage, understand the pain, get the destruction. If there's any doubt it's everywhere in spades on this site. To come in here and state how WS's feel about their BS's pain is a generalization and incorrect in quite a few cases.

I mean, really, truly hear it?? Deep down to your core?

I have lashed out on my WH one time verbally. I told him how I truly felt about his cheating ass, and that was early on in our "false R" stage. I have not done that again. Not because I don't want to lash out and let him know how I truly feel sometimes, let him know the pain is overwhelming, let him know I can't keep it bottled up one more second or I'm going to implode from the hurt.

No.

I keep it inside because he doesn't hear my pain. And so it wells up inside of me, building like a hurricane. It gets so bad sometimes that I truly feel I might spontaneously combust.

Our MC has told WH that HE is in the hotseat. HE must be able to deal with my anger, and that I am entitled to having my anger and letting it out. HE must deal with it, so that I can release it and have any hope of letting it go. Until then, however, it remains stuck and so do I.

I hope you let your BS let it out. Let you have it. Let you feel the pain.. I am hoping that I get my chance before it's too late for us.

I agree with you in that if a BS has been an abuser (emotional, physical) then absolutely that abuser will use being a BS as a vehicle to deliver further abuse and this is as abhorrent to me (and I would hazard a guess everyone) as it is to you.

Heavy Sigh's post is clearly firmly couched in a scenario where there was not abuse by the BS pre-A. I have seen many posts here where a WS's existing abuse is compounded post A and I have never seen anyone tell them to suck it up, they deserve it. Not one single time.

Abuse is not OK. Infidelity is not OK even if there was pre-abuse.

If there is abuse then IMO THAT is the bigger issue of the two and needs to be addressed/rectified/resolved (whatever) before infidelity can even be glanced at.

I do not believe a WS will ever really understand what a BS feels. I don't believe a BS will ever really understand how a WS feels. Hell, maybe only MadHatters understand each other - of course being the first WS is likely quite different to being the second WS. I don't know.

That's the thing about this - in so many ways BS's feel exactly the same way as each other and WS feel exactly the same way as each other but there are also VAST differences amongst all of that commonality.

Do some WS's "get" it - I believe they 'get' but the tip of the iceberg despite the pain that tip causes them.

I'm sorry but I for one flatly reject that a WS can ever 'get' it fully or fully comprehend what it feels like to a BS. Ironically its the a one of the biggest things I as BS want and a part of my healing is accepting that he will NEVER understand what it feels like. He can't - because he's not a BS.

If that is coming out of their mouth, it seems to me that they have no remorse and no intention of true R because they aren't really present emotionally to help their BS heal. They are acknowledging, at best, in word only that what they did was wrong. It certainly hasn't touched their heart.

Here is an example and, as usual, it's a weird one. I have many. My friend has a daughter who I would like to pick up and beat the ever living shit out of. She is a spoiled freaking 8 yr old BRAT and no one likes her. No one invites her to come and play. The reason is because her mother, my friend, never follows through with any type of discipline. Ever. The other day the little brat committed her third painting offense inside of a month. The first was spray painting her slide. Mom yelled. The second was painting the freshly stained deck stairs with paint of another color. Her mom yelled. Three nights ago she spray painted the slide and fort AGAIN and had a friend spending the night. Mom busted them while they were in the shower. Oh, she was mad. I was helping the brat and friend try to scrub off paint and she was actually giggling about the mess she made and having paint all over herself. I told her that there wasn't anything funny about what she did. Mom gave the little brat the option of either getting three swats (which I do not believe she will do) or 3 days without use of Mom's I-phone or Ipad. The little brat did not choose the spanking but did ask, "What if I forget that I'm not supposed to use the Ipad?" Mom says, "Then you choose to get one swat for that by forgetting." Wise kid. The next morning she's playing with her sister's I-phone. Mom says, "You're grounded from the I-phone for 3 days." The brat says, "You said I'm grounded from YOUR phone. You didn't ground me from Sissy's." Mom walked away. Brat won. Brat is the single sneakiest kid I have ever seen. She didn't feel bad about what she did. She didn't learn anything from the mess she made. If she was my kid I not only would have blistered her little ass, I would have made HER stand out there and pressure wash the slide. She still even got to go roller-skating, as planned, the next day because Mom did not want to disappoint her brat's friend. The brat's friend didn't deserve to be punished. I said, "I'd have taken Brat to a friend's to be babysat for the day while I took the friend roller-skating." Brat has not suffered ONE iota for the havoc she's brought on. Nope, Mom is out pressure washing the slide as I type this while Brat is watching TV and trashing the house.

If Brat was sorry, she would have helped clean up the mess she made. She would have been the one suffering out in the 100 degree heat to fix what she broke and she wouldn't be complaining.

When you're willing to suffer through the devastation YOU caused, THAT'S remorse. THAT'S wanting to fix what you broke. The affair may have been over for you 20 years ago but if BS just found out, it's NEW to the BS.

This is why I rarely come to this forum and keep promising myself I won't do it again. But, right now I'm glad I did because it reaffirms to me in no uncertain terms that I am a bad picker and if I was stupid enough to get myself into another relationship knowing full well that the stove is hot, then I will get burned and have no one to blame but myself for sticking my hand on the stove again.

I'm grateful for the WSs who truly are remorseful for what they've done. I'm happy that there are relationships that can heal from the devastation and nuclear disaster of an affair. It will never be that way for me because neither one of my husbands are sorry for what they did. I am a bad picker. Maybe that's the similar thing between some of us who are BSs.

It's AWESOME that this place exists and I have recently sent two friends here. One is the WS who I absolutely adore and respect, and have known for 12 years. Never in a million years did I think he would be capable of what he did. But I know his heart, and I know he's remorseful. Truly remorseful. I hope he joined, I hope he's reading. I also sent the link to his BS and hope she joins. I don't know that they will or will not reconcile. But if there was ever a WS who was TRULY remorseful, it's him.

And the reason I rarely come here, and even more rarely post, is because this forum needs to be a safe place for the WSs who are really sorry they screwed up and who really do want to save their relationships. I wish the honest ones the best, and for the ones who just want their BS to "get over it," I hope you wake up some day. And I hope you take just a moment to understand that infidelity and betrayal are a nuclear disaster. The fallout is significant and it won't just go away.

That's what's made it so hard to understand for many. That they themselves experienced it, either in previous relationships or even the one now and then made the horrible choice they did as well.

My ex chested prior to our marriage. He was honest about it. It was a ONS. Because he was honest I felt it was something I could handle and did. I never felt the pain, anger, self doubt I see some experience on here. I had all those feelings when he raised his hand to me after we were married.

Infidelity affects millions. There are 35,000 members of this site with about 1200 active. People experience different types of betrayal very differently. 

I am not saying that WS's understand exactly how their BS feels or the other direction. What I am stating is that Heavy Sigh's post stated clearly that WS's feel that a BS's pain is due to jealousy and wounded ego. I don't see many WS's that come here feeling it's that at all. Many post how much pain they see their spouse in because of the betrayal of the one they should have trusted most of all, the one that should have had their back and instead they trashed, destroyed the one person they know loved and cared for and they have no fucking idea how they did that.

Yes, there are a few that feel their spouses outrage is due to rejection as they never showed much interest or care prior to the affair. That's also legitimate, in some cases. Think about that. If you have a spouse that ignored, emotionally abandoned, didn't spend time with, rejected pleas for help time and time and then after d day are crawling up their ass with a scope wanting to know everyone they talk to, email, txt, and have nothing but time to verify, check on, what would you attribute that to? Deep pain for this perfect marriage that was just thrown away? Just as you find it impossible to believe a WS will ever understand I will never believe that the driving force behind much of the anger in those situations is not in a very large part rejection. There are BS's that have posted just that on this site. Why is that such an insult? Isn't that a perfectly reasonable reaction to betrayal? Rejection? It's something people have a very hard time getting over ever. It's not an insignificant blow to experience. It can ruin peoples life if they can't process it or work though it. Rejection can fuck people up forever. 

And, I can't remember the last time I ever read on this site that abuse and neglect EVER justifies/justified the choice to cheat. Why does almost every post that has any type of discussion get that thrown in as if bringing up any possible flaw or hint that a BS may have not been perfect is some kind of sacrilege? It's been said on here and ESPECIALLY in this forum that there is never a reason, justification, excuse, to cheat regardless of what the other spouse/SO had done. Ever. Ever. This forum doesn't tolerate ANY justification for ANY bad choices. 

I am not saying that WS's understand exactly how their BS feels or the other direction. What I am stating is that Heavy Sigh's post stated clearly that WS's feel that a BS's pain is due to jealousy and wounded ego.

So what if part of the pain IS because of wounded ego and jealousy? What difference does it make? Betrayal is betrayal, period. This statement reminds me of my friend's brat saying, "You didn't ground me from Sissy's phone." Excuses. Justification. Those two things do NOT belong in true reconciliation or remorse.

Can I get a what what?

Really sad to see this thread still at the top, and running for as many pages as remorsecode has posts.

The original post seemed to be a valid question, and some of us had follow up questions that would have helped determine what sort of advice he needed to hear to develop healthy attitudes and perspective (which should the goal of everyone here). We have not heard from remorsecode since he started this thread a long time ago. I hope that he is working through things and developing a healthy attitude. I hope he comes back, and that when we reply, we can focus on what he needs. If some of the other guests in this forum are angry, I would suggest that rather than driving a newbie away with 2x4's, or fill his request for help with generalized statements such that the signal to noise ratio convinces him he won't find help here, we try to remember that he also has a BW who probably would like him to get help and become healthy as well.

StrongButBroken - I do not believe a WS will ever really understand what a BS feels.

Heavy Sigh The ability of a WS to compartmentalize, as during the affair, and the fact a WS is not directly on the receiving end of the injury makes it difficult for a WS to see how this mistake and what he or she sees as a hidden little fun on the side or friendship that went "too far" actually changes a marital relationship forever.

To the rejection issue, it was the main event in my situation. The catalyst. But, as a WS who has put in a lot of time and energy into fixing myself, I see now that it is also (predominantly) my response to that rejection which is the real problem. But the response was so tightly tied to the rejection that it makes the rejection a very real hurt that I still have to deal with.

EasyDoesIt - When you're willing to suffer through the devastation YOU caused, THAT'S remorse.

uncertainone - In order for a WS to heal and become a safe person for the BS, if they choose to stay together, or for the children, themselves, they need to make healthy choices and part of those choices are establishing self respect. An affair is the antithesis of any form of self respect. So is allowing behavior from themselves and others that is destructive.

Drawing those boundaries is also a way of taking care of the BS. If you love and care for someone allowing them to engage in behavior that is self destructive is not someone you will do. Being abusive and lacking self control is damaging to the person doing it as much as it is to the person that's receiving it.

We are all here for the same reasons. Each of us will have to take a different path to reach a common goal.

EasyDoesIt - When you're willing to suffer through the devastation YOU caused, THAT'S remorse.
I like this. It fits with what I believe. Combine it with this though -
uncertainone - In order for a WS to heal and become a safe person for the BS, if they choose to stay together, or for the children, themselves, they need to make healthy choices and part of those choices are establishing self respect. An affair is the antithesis of any form of self respect. So is allowing behavior from themselves and others that is destructive.
Drawing those boundaries is also a way of taking care of the BS. If you love and care for someone allowing them to engage in behavior that is self destructive is not someone you will do. Being abusive and lacking self control is damaging to the person doing it as much as it is to the person that's receiving it.

We are all here for the same reasons. Each of us will have to take a different path to reach a common goal.

I like this response.

The original post seemed to be a valid question, and some of us had follow up questions that would have helped determine what sort of advice he needed to hear to develop healthy attitudes and perspective (which should the goal of everyone here). We have not heard from remorsecode since he started this thread a long time ago. I hope that he is working through things and developing a healthy attitude. I hope he comes back, and that when we reply, we can focus on what he needs. If some of the other guests in this forum are angry, I would suggest that rather than driving a newbie away with 2x4's, or fill his request for help with generalized statements such that the signal to noise ratio convinces him he won't find help here, we try to remember that he also has a BW who probably would like him to get help and become healthy as well.

As always, aesir, a wonderful post.

I guess the "When are you going to let it go?" comes from the mouth of folks who just don't get how devastated the BS is by the infidelity and betrayal.

If that is coming out of their mouth, it seems to me that they have no remorse and no intention of true R because they aren't really present emotionally to help their BS heal. They are acknowledging, at best, in word only that what they did was wrong. It certainly hasn't touched their heart.

Really proves just how far from actual R so many of the "fake R's" are out there....

If you really feel this way, then what help are you hoping to provide for remorsecode?

I think its helpful to hear that he cannot possibly know what she feels therefore he cannot possibly expect her to just get over it. I wanted to give him an insight into what its like for me as a BS in order for him to know that the pain he feels from it is tiny by comparison. In knowing that I would hope he could have some more empathy for his BS rather than focussing on when his pain from this will stop.

Uncertainone, I mean is "Get over it", "let it go", "just jealously and ego" and the like just feels so damn minimising. Its so much more than that. I can't even begin to describe it.

I also believe that for many infidelity in a past relationship is very different to one in a current one. My WH also cheated in the first few weeks but I did not have anything like the tsunami of pain I have now. That was dissapointment mixed in with hurt. Now I feel like my whole world has come crashing down.

IMO Wayward is kind of a gentle word but Betrayed is a very harsh and sharp word.

I do believe many WS's here are truly remorseful and I'm buoyed regularly by their insightful and honest posts. I don't believe understanding exactly how their BS feels is a requirement to R. I believe knowing that the pain they see and comprehend is but a tip of the iceberg IS a positive step in R as it gives the WS true empathy for their BS. Heavy Sigh's post to me illustrates an issue in my R and I believe many others. That sometimes our pain is minimised especially as R progresses. Because we must be over it because they have done everything right and we're happy. Like we don't have a right to feel sad about it or to be angry about it after XXX days/weeks/years. I'm sorry but I don't think I could handle my pain being minimised that way. I want it acknowledged whenever it rears its ugly head and I want understanding and empathy. Not impatience, frustration or my WH feeling I am hurting him with my hurt. I'm not - it spills out over me sometimes like hot lava and he needs to understand if he wants to be close to me he IS going to also get singed by it.

"I'm happily indifferent to the ones who have consistently been wrong" ~kd lang~

"I'm happily indifferent to the ones who have consistently been wrong" ~kd lang~

I hope this time everyone can focus on your questions in your thread.

I'm not almost 40. I'm $19.99 plus shipping and handling. And insurance.

Sometimes, the person you would take a bullet for is the one holding the gun.

My point is that a BS'es intensity comes from seeing all ramifications of the affair, all at once, while the WS who is mainly is shock (maybe scared? maybe.. I don't, covering-ass mode still?) doesn't have life experience to realize all ramifications (big ones, yes, but not all) on relationship over time if this is WS'es first time being caught in an affair. The first-time-caught WS doesn't have that 360 view of damage yet, when first reaction of exposure for a WS seems to immediately be one of shock, dread, alarm and fear rather than humiliated kind of hurt that sometimes is public (if no where else but a office or small social circle)? A BS will feel those things but also have a realization that the BS's marital history has changed forever. The BS view of the entire relationship has been rewritten because of the affair (not much of an enchanted love story now as a patched-it-together tawdry story, if reconciling or attempting it). The view of the spouse and ability to trust ever again is compromised, since a BS knows a WS is capable of deceit. That the relationship, if a BS believed it to be good, will never be the same as it was during the best of times ever again, because of these things, and that the BS has changed radically from this event, or even how the BS views herself/himself in the relationship as not-so-special but just-another-cheated-on fool in a bad marriage and not a wonderful marriage (if the BS had believed it a good marriage. Throw-up time. For everybody, yes. But it's a flood of realizations each minute to a BS while the WS is still in damage-control mode and maybe even in affair secrecy mode, if contact continues.

A WS who has been through break ups and make ups with high school and college boyfriends/girlfriends will think all can start fresh after a decision is made to reconcile, as it did in high school. So a WS is frustrated and upset at the intensity and length of thinking "reconciliation" means getting back to normal as a BS thinks "reconciliation" means a time for a WS to "prove yourself and maybe, maybe, I'll stay if trust ever comes back, if one day"

For example:

A WS not many weeks after D-Day looking at photos taken of the family may immediately think the kids look cute at their birthday parties, at the zoo, or whatever is directly associated with that photo. Affair mindset won't immediately spring to mind. Just "hey, kids look cute in that photo."

A BS will look at those photos and the first thoughts that pop into the BS'es mind are affair thoughts: How fake or weirdly happy the WS looks while playing Mr. Family Man and deceiving wife that he's smiling beside, while posing in the photo when he was in affair, and what a fool the BS thinks she was being in the photo for smiling and being naive and thinking she was "all that" to him. Then she wonders if that smile on his face wasn't a smile but just smugness and a smirk at how he had her fooled and stupid. Then she will suddenly be remembering how he needed to rush out and buy more ice for the kids' party, and wondering if that time he was hooking up with OW or calling her on his cell on BS'es kid's birthday, spoiling the entire memory, or was he really out buying ice? Crazymaking.

Maybe a rare WS in the first D-Day would realize a photo would trigger WW III in a household again. But in reading the boards, these trigger moments or questions about birthday party photos out of the blue, or whatever the issue, is surprises a WS or even angers a WS.

I don't think a WS shortly after D-Day has grasped that 360 view of what has changed yet, until going through it for a year and seeing it happen. Just can't be foreseen if a WS hasn't had a past experience of D-Days past or of witnessing it.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 10:24 AM, July 6th (Friday)]

Not humiliated? Really? The shame and guilt can be paralilzing for some and have been a constant companion even prior to dday or even the affair.

The dismissive and implied if not out right stated tone of any pain WS's have experienced is offensive. High school boyfriend/girlfriend break ups? Previous relationship cheating not as painful? Really. How dare anyone say that to anyone on this site.  

This forum does not exist in a vacuum. We can read and we do of the post after post of pain of a BS.

Question. When can I ask her to "please stop"? Right now. You can calmly tell her you'll answer any questions honestly and completely. You will be there for her. You will face yourself and are willing to do whatever it takes to get healthy and dig into the thought processes and patterns you have that enabled you to view an affair as an acceptable choice.

You will be transparent, authentic, honest, willingly. You will open your life up and live your love daily by following through, being consistent, being present with her.

I'm glad you're back and hope you are finding some ideas and support. 

A WS who has been through break ups and make ups with high school and college boyfriends/girlfriends will think all can start fresh after a decision is made to reconcile, as it did in high school.

A WS not many weeks after D-Day looking at photos taken of the family may immediately think the kids look cute at their birthday parties, at the zoo, or whatever is directly associated with that photo. Affair mindset won't immediately spring to mind.

A WS does understandably have alot to deal with post Dday. Mr. Aubrie was not verbally abusive to me post Dday and that has helped me tremendously. After suffering that for 3 years, I don't know if I would survive it from my husband, even though I rightly deserve every foul word in the dictionary. It depends on the individual situation. For myself, I will not tolerate verbal abuse. I've been damaged too much from that and that is one of my boundaries. We have discussed every issue we have had in a civil, controlled manner. And we are both healing well.

The way I read the part of your post which I quoted above gave me the impression that you are basing your opinions on only that perception, and that most WS would fall into that category. My point is that while it may be your experience, it certainly isn't that simple of a reason for most of the WS here on SI, even the newbies.

In your post above, you make some points about one group of WS in particular - the "first-time-caught" WS. Keeping to just that group, your views have some merit, but even within that group, the views you express may only apply to a small sub-group. To call it a rare WS who would understand is pretty limiting based on what I've seen on these boards over the years.

The xHSGF/BF thing...well, until you've experienced that, you will have no idea. Maybe you have, I don't know your story. Fresh start...no.

I think we all need to be careful about applying too much of our own situation to others situations.

Remorsecode is lurking. That right there should tell us all that he is interested in learning and growing and that he is questioning things in his own situation. That is a huge step for any WS. Even though SI has this safe forum for waywards, it still take an incredible amount of courage for a WS to stick around on this site.

RemorseCode,

Your wife at 6 months past D-Day is in the rage stage. I burned out a treadmill during this time. The stage will pass except for the rarer outburst and she will go numb and indifferent for a while, but won't be as traumatic for you. This is assuming you are No Contact and there are no more "discoveries" for her to make. Otherwise, the cycle starts new again with grief, more anger stages to cycle through again.

You can tell her it hurts when she calls you names. You can ask her to stop. But at this point, I doubt she can control it entirely, assuming it's verbal only, even though asking her to stop and telling her it hurts you might lessen it. It may help her to have you tell her it hurts you when she does this, because then at least she knows you've been listening instead of blocking it out and not listening. If it continues, ask a counselor or doctor what to do. Anti-anxiety, anti-depressant drug helped me, but these can make rage worse, or suicidal impulses occur, if your BS has other underlying issues, such as bipolar disorder. So tread carefully there but talk to doctors and counselors about the option.

FYI: My high school/college remark's context. Years ago, as a young college graduate in her first job, I learned my boyfriend of four years was getting married when I picked up the hometown newspaper and saw his engagement announcement. Out of the blue. I had been with him every weekend. I guess she was his Friday and Sunday girl and I was his Saturday. Hurt like hell and I wished I could die.

But even that pain was like a small splinter in the foot compared with D-Day in a 20- year marriage. Having children, and a belief I'd found someone better than that cad I was once engaged to, just to learn he was not much different, compounded the trauma.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 10:48 AM, July 6th (Friday)]

I had a GF get pregnant by my best friend. Hurt like hell.

I also thought you were bringing in the subject of having an A with an xGF/BF. Sorry if my comments were snide.

Before we get carried away with generic information, perhaps we should wait for remorsecode to clarify some of the issues he referenced so we can give him relevant advice rather than a wall of text.

I have noticed that the strong underlying truth in all your different anwsers is that our DDay is still fresh and hence her attacks are fierce but will lessen in time. In fact - since she went on a two week fitness camp (where I looked after our son with the inlaws) she did return a lot more mellow and relaxed. Still we have lots of discussions, but she does not "lash out" in great quantities anymore; more within reason nowadays.

Yet things are of course still fresh and I am very much prepared for more. I did need to grow a bit thicker skin but I am gladly doing that - my BS is worth it. Our M and our son are worth it. Where I do draw the line however is physical abuse. Luckily she can restrain herself (I know she does want to hit me many times). What I did started to do is analyze why she is saying hurtful words out loud to her, and this leads to a conversation about what her actual emotions are. It seems to work for us. But it does mean a LOT of talking lol.

Then finally something I want to say to all WSes: Please don't get discouraged by people saying that we do not get it or don't see the full picture. Even though that usually is true (it is true for me) I strongly believe that since we take the effort to participate in this site at all, its shows that we do NOT agree with what we did, and in fact want to better ourselves; to improve ourselves.

Then finally something I want to say to all WSes: Please don't get discouraged by people saying that we do not get it or don't see the full picture

Exactly!!! Here's the thing. "Getting it" is messy. It's a process. It isn't phrases embroidered on a pillow case. Getting it may not look like "getting it" at all to some as it may cause some changes that feel uncomfortable to the one you've hurt.

Any self preservation may look defensive, self serving, undeserving. The truth is that carrying our own water is a very healthy thing and that includes making sure the receptical that water is in isn't punched full of holes.

Of course you are free to ask her to stop at any time. How soon you should ask her to stop depends on what it is she is saying that is hurtful. I would divide it into 3 broad categories.

Things that hurt because they are true. These are the most beneficial to you personally, whatever course your life takes. You should listen to as much of these as possible, asking for a break if you start to feel so overwhelmed that you can not process anymore at one time.

The hurtful statements about how she feels and has a need to express. These will be productive for your marriage. You should listen to these, with empathy, and if she feels something that is not true, gently state so. Don't be too pushy about this, but some reassurance is appropriate for statements like "I feel like you never loved me" or "our whole marriage is a lie". Listen to as much of this as you can until the session becomes counter productive. It is not uncommon for a BS to start triggering themselves and feel worse and worse if it is just a vent, or for a WS to hear so much devastation and fall into a shame spiral.

Things that are said out of anger in an attempt to hurt or punish. You can probably let some of this roll off your back, as some peoples sense of justice requires retribution, but it is not really healthy to put up with plain old abuse. Try to understand where it comes from, but even finding it understandable does not make it right, and it is counterproductive.

Luckily she can restrain herself (I know she does want to hit me many times).

I have noticed that the strong underlying truth in all your different anwsers is that our DDay is still fresh and hence her attacks are fierce but will lessen in time. In fact - since she went on a two week fitness camp (where I looked after our son with the inlaws) she did return a lot more mellow and relaxed. Still we have lots of discussions, but she does not "lash out" in great quantities anymore; more within reason nowadays.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.