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Wayward Side
User Topic: Faithful?????
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, March 18th (Monday)

Meaning of words are important. I know "mistake" gets a drubbing here. For some reason it's taken as something small and inconsequential like forgetting milk. No, that would be forgetful, but ok. So everyone debates and vets the word using almost the exact same definers to impeach it that represent it. Letting that go.
How about faithful. How do you define that? I remember when I was just lurking here reading a post in general where sex was basically "ewwwwww" and why is was so important to some. Well, instantly two questions presented. "Why did them outsourcing bother you so much" and "how can you feel so self righteous about your "fidelity" if you don't partake of what you don't like anyway?"

Steadfast in affection or allegiance. Is that something that maybe a few may be in violation of that have never touched another or even thought about another?

Is being disrespectful as you run them down to others not a breach of that before anyone else is even a thought during your "private moments"?

If an ea can be something that can occur whenever any form of communication with a member of the opposite sex is not ok wouldn't airing at your spouses private failings as well as denigration of the gender they represent be considered unfaithful?

Wonder how many waywards started just that way. Wonder how many more are in every meaning of the word but just don't like the actively that brings members to this site, typically.

I don't want to cliff dive. Would hardly claim to be and advocate of OSHA as I'm dangling from Half Dome.

Wondering how many started down this path with "acceptable disrespect" before hitting the hard "drugs".


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, March 18th (Monday)

UO I truly love your posts, I never feel quite as intelligent when I read them lol.

To respond to your actual post though I agree with a lot of it. I read a lot in General and tend to stay off the threads that insult waywards continuously. The line "guess that's just how cheaters think," or "the shit these waywards say is unbelievable" and many other broad painting lines bother me to a degree where I want to shout not all of them are like that but also generalizations are dangerous folks. They make you believe you are better then those you are making the generalization about and the higher you place yourself the further you habe to fall imo. Now I'm not saying people will cheat but I feel the practice of saying horrible things about waywards and then in that same line saying you are better then them is you being unfaithful to who you are. Insulting a group of people because of their actions and saying you are better then them makes you look worse in my eyes and always has. I've always felt you are who you are and carry your head high no matter who you are but the moment you need to put someone else down on to feel good then you're not being faithful to you.

Some might disagree here and some might get angry. I have wanted to state this many times and don't because I don't wish to offend. I have been in general and JFO and the pain in some of those posts are so raw and I 100% feel they should feel their pain and work through it but others just seem to turn into a wayward bashing thread where everyone gets a turn to take a swing. Those are the ones I close and move on from although lately its been annoying me more and more. I don't get the I'm better then you concept and how it brings anything to anyone let alone how it brings anything to a relationship. Perhaps I overstepped my bounds here and I feel I didn't articulate as well I wanted to. I do not wish to offend anyone and UO sorry if this seemed like a t/j but your post reminded me of these things.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2769 | Registered: Oct 2012
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, March 18th (Monday)

As you have stated many times, wayward and unfaithful mentalities can happen without the actual "stepping out." It is just not widely recognized or acknowledged.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Fidelia
Member
Member # 38345
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, March 18th (Monday)

No stop sign so....

UO I agree that denigrating your spouse to others can be part of that slippery slope, better to air it with your spouse than others. Although sometimes we need to let off steam and have someone help get it all back in perspective BEFORE we have that talk. But it needs to be a same sex friend of the M, I feel.

"Why did them outsourcing bother you so much" and "how can you feel so self righteous about your "fidelity" if you don't partake of what you don't like anyway?"

Ok, I'm going to give an honest personal perspective on this. Firstly, for many women, they only feel able to have sex in a long-term relationship when they feel emotionally safe. My WH had been withdrawing from me for years, I just couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. He was also pretty awful in bed (that has changed ) but too repressed to cope with talking about it (I did try). So it didn't meet my needs and I didn't feel close emotionally. So I didnt really feel like doing it much and mainly did it because I love WH and wanted to meet his needs.
Then we decided to have children. The fact that he felt ready made me feel closer emotionally and so I wanted to have sex with him. Then I got pregnant and a few weeks later had a series of bleeds. I was advised not to have sex during pregnancy. Then I was ripped apart and badly damaged by the doctor in childbirth (leaving permanent damage). I was scared of having sex. I didn't know how to admit that to WH because I was finding it hard to admit to myself. He was finding being a dad difficult and he started withdrawing again and we were both so tired...so by the time our eldest was 9 months, W was having an email fling with a friend of mine (not that I knew). He became more distant, I felt less safe, still very tired and flung myself into being a mum.

He changed jobs to somewhere nearer where we could start to connect again (at my nagging) and eventually felt safe enough to try having sex. Oh I was so terrified that it would be awful for him, that the damage would mean that I was baggy and rubbish. That was my fear you see, that he'd reject my body. Thankfully it seemed ok. And after a while we decided to try for our other child. But I got a bleed again and again had to abstain while pregnant.

This time I had a caesarean - and it took 5 months to heal up. During that healing time, WH had moved back into the city and old job. He met OW2 and they immediately started flirting and I had no idea. I wasn't even capable of sex at that point. And of course, he distanced himself from me again, even further than before. I felt unsafe. I was tired. I hated the way I looked after the caesarean. But laos, I'd been told by the doctor not to have any more operations, so no more children. But I get pregnant very easily and I couldn't face an abortion. So we talked about WH getting a vasectomy and us abstaining until then.

He put it off for almost 2 years. And during this time he got closer to OW2. By the time he had it and we started having sex again, he'd already kissed her.

Ironically, it was at this point that he worked on his technique and got so much better and also that my libido went through the roof because of hormonal changes and....because I was suspicious that something was going on and wanted to make sure he knew he didn't have to go anywhere else. But it was too late.

So please tell me, where do I fit into your questions? Sex is about both people and it's usually more complicated than it first appears.


Me: BW 36
Him: WH 36 (randomusername)

"lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed" Heb12v13

"Oh God give me


Posts: 296 | Registered: Feb 2013
Fidelia
Member
Member # 38345
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 18th (Monday)

Sorry, reading that I sound angry at the end. I wasn't meaning to. I just was trying to say that sometimes we use shorthand on threads and don't go into the detail of our complicated lives, but often things aren't as simple as they first appear.


Me: BW 36
Him: WH 36 (randomusername)

"lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed" Heb12v13

"Oh God give me


Posts: 296 | Registered: Feb 2013
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, March 18th (Monday)

Fidelia, you are relatively new here, so I guess we should tell you, UO has a habit of hiding these little treasures in Wayward when they are really life lessons for all that could easily go in General, or possibly in New Beginnings for those with a chance to start over.

Also a shame that such a philosophical post as this gets made at the same time as a real life example of just one form gets posted in the same forum.

As for the endless argument about mistake, all I can say is that despite all the careful and deliberate planning, and the horrific consequences, most historians will call Napoleon's invasion of Russia a mistake. Comparing the two, my STBXWW's A doesn't seem like such a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Not even going to touch on the sex part. The rest is very fascinating. If you bash your spouse to a friend of the opposite sex that is an EA, but to constantly bash your spouse to a friend of the same sex is okay? I can remember one time complaining of this behavior, and it being blown off with the excuse that "that's what women do, we bitch", I answered with "No, that's not what women do. That's what bitches do, they bitch." Do I really care who my spouse is telling that I am a fucktard and a son of a bitch and an asshole and... or is it more important that she is saying that at all.

Wondering how many started down this path with "acceptable disrespect" before hitting the hard "drugs".
I don't know if this is a gateway drug type of thing or not, but even so, if your children are hungry, does it matter if you are passed out on the couch from heroin, or from smoking a couple bowls too many of "just pot".

Sadly, there are a lot of people who are married to a spouse they show no signs of respecting, and there is a whole industry built around catering to one genders fantasies by denigrating the other gender and vice versa.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, March 18th (Monday)

So please tell me, where do I fit into your questions

You may not. Not everyone does. I think enough do to, at some point at least, do some internal inventory.

I have seen more than just one or two post, yes I was an addict or alcoholic but I didn't cheat. This is met with much agreement. Really? You didn't? Why? Because you didn't actually touch or hide another just a drug?

The way I've overheard some people describe their spouses, the contempt and disrespect that just drips. Talk about defiling a martial bed. Hell, I feel I should call them and tell them to get a food taster. Talk about sleeping with the enemy.

Should we inform the "BS" their ws thinks they're worthless pieces of shit that can't walk and breath at the
same time?

That is a far cry from "faithful".

I'm obviously not talking about BS's after d day or for quite some time after. At some point, though there needs to be reflection for growth.

The "any complaints the wayward has is bullshit" is in itself bullshit for quite a few.

I've posted this before and been told by some that while they agree this is a site to recover from infidelity not shitty marriages.

Well, my possition is "this" is infidelity as well. Not fucking someone else is not, in and of itself faithful, not even if you masticate that definition as well.

Like Aesir pointed out (thank you
) there was an example just posted of this very thing. The lying and disrespect of spending putting their family in jeopardy and being very disrespectful of their spouse.

Unilateral decisions aren't a way to support and contribute to marriage. While frustrations with your spouse are bound to happen in any relationship those belong safely within the confines of the relationship not spread through your work department along with their dirty laundry inviting all to laugh and add to the derision.

Taking care of each other doesn't mean a shovel, chloroform, a hole in the back yard, even metaphorically.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ophelia24
Member
Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, March 18th (Monday)

This is great UO. I have been talking recently to my BF about the denigrating, sarcastic, sniping comments that my sister is making about her SO. He may have his faults (as we all do)but there is something really ugly about it. I refuse to participate in it, and am resented due to this.

'Faithfulness' as you so eloquently point out, is not just about physical fidelity (you gave me a 2x4 about this and I was happy to receive it) and I also think does not just involve bagging the SO, but also 'selling them out'. An example I will use just happened between me and my BH this Saturday.

I was sitting with my father and my BH watching our son play cricket, and Dad and I got into a discussion about our oldest son (19) who dad has taken in once again, despite my H and I being willing to have him with us, but only if he abides by the rules we have in our house. Our son does not want to agree so goes to my dad, and dad takes him in. This is has occured numerous times over the last 4 years (the last time after our son stole our CC and took 2500 dollars out of it). Basically Dad is saying to our son he agrees with HIM and treating us disrespectfully is actually OK with him.

Anyway, long story shortish, dad and I were having a heated discussion as I told him how this was not good for our son and also that it was hurtful to us. My dad is stubborn so we went back and forth for a bit. My H said nothing, which I was glad of as it would have been like we were ganging up on my dad if he had chimed in. BUT! What really hurt me is that my H obviously felt uncomfortable with mine and dads conversation and turned to me tersely and said "yeah alright Ophelia24 your repeating yourself". My stomach felt like he had punched it. I was so fucking hurt and angry that he sold me out, as he knows it is not easy to be honest with my dad ( I was shaking as I was telling dad how I felt) and he knew I was telling the truth, for him and me. He in fact agrees with everything I was saying. I just wanted to tell my dad to his face, rather than whine behind his back. Because that is what we do when we love someone, we bring it to them so they can respond, or just to express ourselves.

I screamed at him when we got home and he tried to get angry at me as he fucking knew he had been a coward.

I am giving him a pass for his betrayal this time, due to recent disclosure, but I will not accept this disloyalty from someone I love and who claims to love me. And there will be serious consequences if he continues to show weak boundaries with loyalty and support of me. Which I have shared with him so he knows where I stand on this.

Sorry so long, but I thought this was a good example for how we let people down majorly, that doesnt involve physical unfaithfulness, but is unfaithful nonetheless. Because how can we trust them to have our back when we cant hear what they are saying, when they drop the ball right in front of us?

Thanks for your post. Always love reading your insights UO.


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 283 | Registered: Feb 2013
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, March 18th (Monday)

wouldn't airing at your spouses private failings as well as denigration of the gender they represent be considered unfaithful?

I agree. That's selling them out to someone else for cheap entertainment. That's made me more cautious of who to talk to about stuff over the last few years because of that - disrespect. Sometimes I wonder if being here on SI might be hurting my H as well with some of the things I have posted.

I think speaking hatefully to your spouse right to their face is being unfaithful in a sense as well - it's showing them that you're not part of their team. It's made me aware that if I am going to argue with H about things, I need to find a more respectful way of doing it. One that doesn't involve contempt.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 6:22 PM, March 18th (Monday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, March 18th (Monday)

I always think there are more vows than fidelity. If you have vowed to love, honor, respect... Well, many people break those vows too easily... even before DDay.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6102 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, March 18th (Monday)

My SO has told his family and friends my actions and as far as I know if they insulted me he never defended me. I am guilty of complaining about my SO pre-A to my girlfriends because I would complain to him and get nothing in response so I vented to my friends. I remember doing this to one of my G/F's one day in front of SO's BFF and his friend told me to stol complaining about him because that was wrong. I looked at him and said SO already knows all these things but does nothing to resolve them, she is my friend and I need to vent. After A he told SO this as proof of what a shitty person I always have been and of course SO used this often in fights. SO has called me a slut, a bitch, a whore, has told me he hates me, has called me horrible and I have little doubt he said these things to his friend and family and little doubt that he defended me if they said anything.

He'll I found out after DDay that there were things about me he'd complain or talk to his friends about but I never knew any of them because he never told me...I have to go think some more.

[This message edited by Unagie at 6:20 PM, March 18th (Monday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2769 | Registered: Oct 2012
knightsbff
Member
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 11:02 PM, March 18th (Monday)

UO,
Great thread! This subject has been rattling around in my head lately. We are supposed to limit our friendships to those who are "friends of the marriage", but what about us? Shouldn't we (BS and WS) be friends of the marriage if we want to keep it? R-E-S-P-E-C-T

I always think there are more vows than fidelity. If you have vowed to love, honor, respect... Well, many people break those vows too easily... even before DDay.

^^^This!!!!

Way before there was an EA or a PA I betrayed my H, my marriage and myself by the way I spoke to and about him. No cursing or name calling but such disdain. I think that was the beginning of the slippery slope.

It saddens me when I think of the years I wasted flailing around like a child because I was uncomfortable with myself and I didn't know how to help it.

[This message edited by knightsbff at 11:04 PM, March 18th (Monday)]


FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

I edit often because I make a lot of typos. ☺️


Posts: 1503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
veritas
Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, March 18th (Monday)

I think this highlights why every situation is so individual. There are varying levels of infidelity and unfaithfulness, but sexual infidelity hits on at least two levels, right off the bat, and that's why it's so potentially devastating. There's a visceral core with another layer on top: dishonesty, spite, resentment. Many infidelities in marriage have only one layer: some kind of character flaw, FOO issues, etc.


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10168 | Registered: Feb 2004
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:52 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

I don't believe any infidelity has only one layer. In order to disrespect another you have to first trash yourself.

Financial infidelity hits two right off the bat as well, as does addiction. It's the layering of expectations, resentment, finger pointing, score keeping, lies, avoidance, lack of communication, lack of courage.

Just the focus so many have on "happiness" like it's a third member of the marriage and needs to be catered to or there is "something wrong"...a precious and demanding pet.

Yes, it's very individual as well as varying in degrees. I don't feel that it's ever minor, though, just subversive in it's lethality disguised by excuses and justification.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 1:57 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Very thought provoking post, UO. It makes me wonder how many times I have been unfaithful to my wife, friends, or family throughout the years in different ways. I think I've done pretty good, for the most part. I also think I have some work to do. This is a post that I am still digesting, and it makes me look inward, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

Posts: 7657 | Registered: Dec 2010
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 3:19 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

but sexual infidelity hits on at least two levels, right off the bat, and that's why it's so potentially devastating. There's a visceral core with another layer on top: dishonesty, spite, resentment. Many infidelities in marriage have only one layer: some kind of character flaw, FOO issues, etc.

I'm with UO. Abuse (emotional, physical...) and addiction are absolutely multilayered.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6102 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
isadora
Member
Member # 29130
Default  Posted: 5:57 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

A co-worker gave me advice once about speaking negatively about your partner to others. Because generally what you say about your partner is all most people will know about them.

FWH has done a lot I don't agree with, or just plain pisses me off (infidelity aside), but I have always stopped to think before I said anything. It was something that really hurt me after DDay, is the amount of
time he spent trashing me to justify his
cheating.

[This message edited by isadora at 5:58 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Me: BW Him: WH
Married: 12 yrs
2 DDs and DSs all under 10
2 Affairs - 2010 year long PA/EA, 2008 2 month online EA
Multiple D-Days

I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.


Posts: 4509 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Back home again in Indiana
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Steadfast in affection or allegiance. Is that something that maybe a few may be in violation of that have never touched another or even thought about another?

Is being disrespectful as you run them down to others not a breach of that before anyone else is even a thought during your "private moments"?

wouldn't airing at your spouses private failings as well as denigration of the gender they represent be considered unfaithful?

I hope as a BS I am allowed to post on this as there is no stop sign.

This post is exactly what I needed to read right now, it articulates thoughts I wasn't quite able to articulate myself. Like Unagie I find myself at the “wanting to shout out loud” stage at times in the general or JFO forums as it all just seems TOO unjust and far too onsided. Also like her, I don’t want to tread on the toes of others who are obviously in a very bad place emotionally, so often just keep my mouth shut. But it really does too often feel that people (BSs) do just line up with a bat to take any old swings at waywards, yet BSs get carte blanche to dis waywards in any and all ways, no matter how healthy or accurate or fair or violating of boundaries that dissing may be.

I have even had a few swings taken at myself personally when I have tried to highlight that the broad strokes being used were far too broad and full of stereotypes and overgeneralizations. In fact I was even accused of having adopted my WHs maladaptive thinking and being in denial, all because I took a rational and logical view (instead of an emotionally charged rant) of my (f)WH for using a prostitute.

I have a LOT of trouble getting to grips with sheer amount of denigration that is directed at waywards or their "EVIL" affair partners. That SOME waywards and APs may deserve that level of hatred is a given, but really it is far too widespread and hate filled to be healthy. The people filled with this amount of rage and hatred for their wayward partners, do in my own personal opinion, really need to look inwards at themselves and discover why they need to take part in these hate fueled rants so often.

Thank you for starting this post UncertainOne.

Oh and just to clarify, I do realize that people who have JFO or are if the direct aftermath of dday do go on hate filled rants and that is to expected and I don’t count them amongst the posts that irk me.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
tryingmybest2011
Member
Member # 32584
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

"Why did them outsourcing bother you so much"

Because it wasn't just the "ewwww" sex that was outsourced. Affection, attention, and everything else that went to someone else. And apparently, it was much easier to give those things to other people, than it was to give them to me. Is that a deficit in me?

For myself, a lot of the frustration about the situation is that I could feel my WH withdrawing for quite a while before, could feel the contempt, tried to address it directly with him, and was rejected. At times I do feel self-righteous, and I suppose that's where it comes from.


BS: me - 37
WH: him - 37
DD: 8
DD: 11 mos

Married over 9 years, together for 18.

DD#1: 12/12/10 - LTA of 3 years, 2 mos.
DD#2: 02/02/11 - 2 EA/PA with coworkers, a month after the LTA was ended (by OW).

In limbo.


Posts: 323 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: Ontario Canada
Dance4Me
Member
Member # 26284
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

In my FWH's case, he didn't bad mouth me at all to his many young female coworkers and so called "friends" (I had no clue about.). In fact, he didn't even mention me at all...over a course of seven years. All during my time working in a professional setting, I spoke well of my H almost everyday to my coworkers. Many even knew him and liked him very much. When I asked my H if the last young female coworker he had a year and half texting/calling friendship with knew my name...his answer was - "I am not sure!" To me...this has caused me great pain and a feeling of being insignificant - and I defintely feel his actions were unfaithful despite there being no emotions/love/sex involved with these so called female friends.

I also agree that these unfaithful gestures were a slow progression into his two time physical sex act with his last and only PA/OW - the ultimate betrayal for me.

Even with all of my Hs betrayal behind us...I still don't disrespect him to others with harsh and nasty words. If that was the case, and he wasn't acting in a loving and remorseful way, I would have had to leave by now. I can't live everyday with a spouse I don't want to remain faithful to - as you suggest. My kids and I deserve peace after all we have been through...

[This message edited by Dance4Me at 9:40 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


On Dday -BS-me 41 FWS-him 42
Married 19 years 3 kids (16,13,9)
D-Day 10/2/09- TT til Feb. 2010

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken.” -CS Lewis


Posts: 1043 | Registered: Nov 2009
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

I absolutely agree that there are layers to infidelity. Addictions, compulsive spending, putting down your spouse to others, withholding sex and affection are all detrimental to a marriage.

Of course, the world isn't black and white. There are shades of grey and I'm sure that many people have a reason for doing the above, as I'm sure there are people out there who feel there are legitimate reason that led to their A. The withholding of sex is particularly personal. One spouse may have a lower sex drive than the other, I know that's the case in my M. However, I try to compensate for that. Let's say my H wants sex 5 days a week, I prefer 1 day a week, then generally we settle for 3 and everyone ends up happy. I firmly believe that BOTH people need to make accommodations for their spouse. That's what a M is.

If you bash your spouse to a friend of the opposite sex that is an EA, but to constantly bash your spouse to a friend of the same sex is okay? I can remember one time complaining of this behavior, and it being blown off with the excuse that "that's what women do, we bitch", I answered with "No, that's not what women do. That's what bitches do, they bitch."

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one aesir. I agree that if she is calling you names, really beating you down to your friends, then that is a problem. But, at least with all the friends I have, a little bit of bitching is perfectly normal. Along the lines of, "Why can't he take the trash out before the can is overflowing" or "Is it really so hard to get your dirty clothes into the laundry basket? What a lazy ass". I think that this type of bitching is healthy for a M. Everyone needs an outlet. Someone to vent to. I say this stuff to my WH, but I also say it to my friends, because if I heap it all on my WH at once it's overwhelming for him. And if I bitch about it to my friends, it helps to calm me down and realize that in the grand scheme of things it's not something that requires I go to Defcon-3 when I talk about it to my WH.

I read a lot in General and tend to stay off the threads that insult waywards continuously. The line "guess that's just how cheaters think," or "the shit these waywards say is unbelievable" and many other broad painting lines bother me to a degree where I want to shout not all of them are like that but also generalizations are dangerous folks

While I agree that generalizations are dangerous, frankly this is a site full of angry, betrayed people. In most of our experiences, waywards do say the same shit and do do the same stupid stuff over and over again. In my case, there really was no reason for my WH to cheat. We had a good, happy M. He was just a liar and an asshole and selfish. So when I bitch about him I feel like I'm coming from a place where it is entirely justified. And bitching about it here means that I have an outlet to get these feelings out, so I don't load it all on my WH. He's trying and I'm trying to repair our M and move on from the multiple A's.

Maybe I got a little off-topic here, but I appreciate these type of discussions. I agree with what you have said in the past UO, that there are reasons behind some people's decisions to have an A. But, as we all know, it was the wrong decision.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

I agree with what you have said in the past UO, that there are reasons behind some people's decisions to have an A. But, as we all know, it was the wrong decision.

Oh, everyone has reasons behind their fucked up choices. And they sound so very valid to them. If it starts with, "it's because you"... You know it was the wrong choice.

No one makes anyone do anything. It's a fucking cop out.

Damia, just because something is "normal" doesn't make it right. Why is bitching to your friends about your husband ok?

You know what sometimes just stuns me, we have such wise caring people on this site. I see it in posts every day. They speak truth, courage, help us waywards face hard facts...sometimes there's this real uni-directional pattern, though.

Would you say those things in front of him?

Funny thing, I cheated on my ex. Never bad mouthed him. Every. Didn't let my friends. They saw how he treated me. I made the choice to stay. As long as I did he was my husband and still is the father of my children. If I couldn't at least respect that I needed to get the fuck out. Even in my choices I was incapable of not letting him exercise the same choices I was. Yeah, I didn't know he had already done that but regardless.

It's sad. It's also very unattractive. I had to tell a few of my employees they were known as the Manhaters Annonymous and I had several managers tell me to tell them to hold their meetings somewhere other than the break room.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Damia, just because something is "normal" doesn't make it right. Why is bitching to your friends about your husband ok?

and

Would you say those things in front of him?

I agree that "normal" doesn't equal right or healthy. I just feel that it's healthy to have an outlet for your frustrations. Whether you write it in a journal or bitch about it to your friends, getting those feeling out will make you feel better about the situation (or at least that's how it works for me)! But I also never say anything to them that I don't say to my H. I don't let anyone else put him down, I have even found myself defending him here on SI, despite all the crap he's put me through.

I can understand where you're coming from though. I do have a one "friend" (I put that in quotes because she is more like a friend by default) who is constantly berating her H to us, just saying awful things. It really makes everyone around her uncomfortable. Here we are, just doing minor bitching about annoying habits, and she brings in the really nasty stuff. And that's not okay. My feeling is, if you're not willing to say it with him standing right there, then don't say it at all.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Not even going to touch on the sex part. The rest is very fascinating. If you bash your spouse to a friend of the opposite sex that is an EA, but to constantly bash your spouse to a friend of the same sex is okay? I can remember one time complaining of this behavior, and it being blown off with the excuse that "that's what women do, we bitch", I answered with "No, that's not what women do. That's what bitches do, they bitch." Do I really care who my spouse is telling that I am a fucktard and a son of a bitch and an asshole and... or is it more important that she is saying that at all.

Well when my friend came to me with it, I told her she was being a bitch. Her brother, father, grandfather, wouldnt have said it like that but I did. I have known her longer than her spouse and had to remind her that she has always been that way and its annoying as hell. She creates deadlines and lists in her brain that no one knows about accept her, then she gets mad when everyone else is late. No way in the hell hubby was gonna be able to have a talk with her about it with out her going smooth the hell off on him.

So yeah, its helpful to talk to someone of the same sex who really knows you. She was bashing him about doing something he had no idea he was doing. I showed her that......


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

damn you are good, UO....


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5989 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

just because something is "normal" doesn't make it right

So true. I think if you are really looking to get healthy, you have a whole new normal.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Well when my friend came to me with it, I told her she was being a bitch. Her brother, father, grandfather, wouldnt have said it like that but I did.

IME this is rare. I had to pull away from friends who treated every gathering as an opportunity to slam their SOs. There was no analysis, and while their complaints may have been legitimate, they were talking about things that had been present right from the start, with no intention of changing things or growing themselves. I always had a strict policy of not sharing my frustrations with my FWH with others. I still do, although I will talk about things in IC, MC, or on SI where I can count on people to help me look objectively at things and challenge me to change my own attitude if necessary.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1752 | Registered: Nov 2010
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

I just feel that it's healthy to have an outlet for your frustrations. Whether you write it in a journal or bitch about it to your friends, getting those feeling out will make you feel better about the situation (or at least that's how it works for me)!

Short term no doubt. Might want to reconsider it though.
http://www.myhealthnewsdaily.com/1460-venting-makes-feel-worse-coping-setbacks.html
t/j I wonder if the fact I never really got into venting to anyone has something to do with why I am not as angry as I am supposed to be.

So yeah, its helpful to talk to someone of the same sex who really knows you. She was bashing him about doing something he had no idea he was doing. I showed her that......
That just shows that it is helpful to talk to you. I somehow suspect that despite the name of Manhaters Anonymous, that little club is not trying to quit. Most people when they go to friends with this kind of shit are not looking for help, they want reinforcement, affirmation that they are right, sympathy from someone else who agrees that they are married to a <redacted>, stories about how the entire opposite gender is screwed up.

[This message edited by aesir at 12:03 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
JanaGreen
Member
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Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

I had to tell a few of my employees they were known as the Manhaters Annonymous and I had several managers tell me to tell them to hold their meetings somewhere other than the break room.

I kept reading this as "Madhatters Anonymous" at first and was REALLY confused. Reading comprehension fail.

I think there is a world of difference between venting/talking PRIVATELY to a friend about a problem you're having, whether to let off steam or get advice/another perspective, and all-out public free-for-all bashing. I HATE that shit. I think I have mentioned this on here, but shortly after D-Day I went to a child's birthday party with my H and two of his coworkers and their wives. One of the wives rolled her eyes at her H and called him a moron to the other wife after he handed her the incorrect kind of pizza. Then they sat at the booth adjoining their husbands and mine and proceeded to trash talk them the rest of the meal. Appalling. My H had just cheated on me with a prostitute and I treated him with more respect than that. There's a lady at my work who comes in with a different story every day about her "idiot" husband. Usually they conclude with some sweeping statement about how stupid all men are. I wonder how the men who sit around us feel about that.

I don't bash, but I've been guilty of other kinds of "infidelity" in my marriage. I have to CONSTANTLY guard against letting my FOO walk all over me. Because, and this took me a LONG time to realize, that doesn't just affect me. It also affects my H/family, and I have to draw those lines (it all goes back to boundaries!) And he tried and tried to talk to me about that, and I never really listened - until everything blew up. Once he started acting like a human being again, I had to start looking at my behavior too. I told my IC that it was really much easier when he was acting like a monster. I could just sit back and say, "See, look how awful. I am the victim." When he started acting like a husband, and a good one, I had to turn around and look at myself, and shed some light on some dark corners in my own behavior.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 12:05 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6835 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

t/j
It's an interesting article aesir. Maybe the difference in the situations we are talking about is that my friends and I always end up laughing about whatever we're bitching about (except for the one "friend" I mentioned above).

Also, the article seemed to be focused more on people venting about themselves, their own struggles and failures. I could see how that might be detrimental. If you say "I'm such a dummy I can't believe I failed that test" it would certainly be healthier to say, "Well I blew that test, but it's only one and I still have a B average, so all in all it's not so bad."

That's the difference between saying to your friends, "How is it that my husband can't manage to get a sock in the laundry basket?", having your friends laugh and commiserate, or saying "What the hell is wrong with him, why is he so damn stupid?" One is just a minor bitching, the other is disrespectful.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Hmm. That article... My psych teacher said something similar. She said that by talking about an incident that happened over and over again, that sometimes it can make it seem like it happened dozens of times instead of once because it keeps certain neural pathways open, certain mental patterns. Could potentially retraumatize a person over and over again if it's not healed properly. I read an interesting metaphor in a book about making a mound of soil and watching how the rain falls on it - over time the rain will make a rut in it as the water flows the same way. "Getting in a rut", making habits... Eye-opening.

Sometimes if a person's hurting you and being abusive, and you're codependent, it can help to repeat certain thoughts as an incentive to not get sucked back into the abuse cycle and put yourself in further danger - reminding yourself of who they are so you can get away safely. Other times, when you're with someone who makes an honest mistake or is simply doing what they do without HARMing anyone (annoying possibly, but not harming), repeating bad thoughts about them might do them an injustice.

It's important to pay attention to which thoughts are worth repeating, because they affect brain chemistry.

Same for those of us who have low self-esteem. It is so important not to repeat the self-defeating thoughts - each time we do, we keep the habit alive.

Just rambling. Take what applies and leave the rest.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:36 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
MoreWould
Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

UO

This is great work, almost too deep for SI.

t/j SI is a "safe" place for venting, "kinda" safe for Waywards, "not very" safe for Madhatters, and downright "toxic" at time for philosophers. But, for those of us who have dealt with infidelity for a long time, the last category is where the work is getting done.

Maybe there should be a place for a new category for us.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 12:46 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 357 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

"not very" safe for Madhatters

Really? How so?


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198460 | Registered: May 2002
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

That's the difference between saying to your friends, "How is it that my husband can't manage to get a sock in the laundry basket?", having your friends laugh and commiserate, or saying "What the hell is wrong with him, why is he so damn stupid?" One is just a minor bitching, the other is disrespectful.

I totally agree. Is that what's really said? "Why can't my husband get a sock in the laundry basket?". If "his" aiming skills have been critiqued it usually has companions that are far more critical and demeaning. If someone is "bitching" it's not normally so "bland" for a lack of a better word and represents quite a bit more than missing the laundry. Is it really ever about that?

More, I actually have found SI to be incredibly safe. Madhatter? Did you think that's what I said?

I think madhatters may have different challenges but some amazing folks here have done some amazing work on here and share their struggles.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Oops sorry, just saw DS


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Not going to get into the deeper stuff, but... geez. I don't think I've ever been out with my friends and we haven't spent at least 10 minutes grousing about male inadequacies, generally along the lines of "they just don't get it" with respect to taking care of the kids & managing the household. And this is done in the context of good marriages. Both before and after the A, I wouldn't engage in any serious criticism of my WH in public, but joking about the socks? Of course! I think it's harmless venting and also, among women, a form of consciousness-raising, in the sense that we have to remind ourselves not to let men get away with this shit. I read some article just today about how men still spend far less time on household tasks than women. This is a real and serious issue, and it only benefits men to ignore the systematic nature of it. (Kinda like employers who never want you to talk about pay so you don't realize that Joe Schmoe is making 10K more than you.) And, come to think of it, sharing secrets is what we do here on SI, isn't it? Are we betraying our partners by sharing on here? It's only inappropriate when you're forging bonds with another that threaten your primary relationship, or sharing secrets you promised to keep.

Anyway, I digress. I agree, overall, with the point that we should be respectful of our partners, both in public and in person. My WH has a strong sense of privacy and family loyalty (pause for ironic smirk), and I'm quite certain that he never ran me down in front of his AP. And I am now so sensitized to how important this is to him that I would never do so, either. Post DD, however, I have thrown that to the wind a bit and feel that I can discuss him with some carefully chosen friends (which he HATES the idea of, that people he knows and respects KNOW about this). But even with them, I hope I'm never disrespectful. And I would certainly never do so with a man. In fact, I have a work colleague who tells me probably more than he should about his personal life, and I haven't told him a thing about what's been going on with me, simply because I feel we should keep our relationship professional.

Respect is critical in a relationship. I think one of those studies looking at which Ms have good MC outcomes found that eyerolling was a big predictor of poor outcomes. But sometimes we have to figure out whether that person is deserving of respect -- we have to keep our ability to assess that person independently, as to whether they're worthy of that respect and giving us that respect in return. That's where the joking and grousing come in. As they used to say in my DD's social skills class: "is this a big problem, or a little problem?" We can joke about little problems. Big problems deserve different treatment. And sometimes talking with friends helps us to figure that out.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1061 | Registered: Aug 2012
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Not going to get into the deeper stuff, but... geez. I don't think I've ever been out with my friends and we haven't spent at least 10 minutes grousing about male inadequacies, generally along the lines of "they just don't get it" with respect to taking care of the kids & managing the household. And this is done in the context of good marriages. Both before and after the A, I wouldn't engage in any serious criticism of my WH in public, but joking about the socks? Of course! I think it's harmless venting and also, among women, a form of consciousness-raising, in the sense that we have to remind ourselves not to let men get away with this shit. I read some article just today about how men still spend far less time on household tasks than women. This is a real and serious issue, and it only benefits men to ignore the systematic nature of it. (Kinda like employers who never want you to talk about pay so you don't realize that Joe Schmoe is making 10K more than you.) And, come to think of it, sharing secrets is what we do here on SI, isn't it? Are we betraying our partners by sharing on here? It's only inappropriate when you're forging bonds with another that threaten your primary relationship, or sharing secrets you promised to keep.

Anyway, I digress. I agree, overall, with the point that we should be respectful of our partners, both in public and in person. My WH has a strong sense of privacy and family loyalty (pause for ironic smirk), and I'm quite certain that he never ran me down in front of his AP. And I am now so sensitized to how important this is to him that I would never do so, either. Post DD, however, I have thrown that to the wind a bit and feel that I can discuss him with some carefully chosen friends (which he HATES the idea of, that people he knows and respects KNOW about this). But even with them, I hope I'm never disrespectful. And I would certainly never do so with a man. In fact, I have a work colleague who tells me probably more than he should about his personal life, and I haven't told him a thing about what's been going on with me, simply because I feel we should keep our relationship professional.

Respect is critical in a relationship. I think one of those studies looking at which Ms have good MC outcomes found that eyerolling was a big predictor of poor outcomes. But sometimes we have to figure out whether that person is deserving of respect -- we have to keep our ability to assess that person independently, as to whether they're worthy of that respect and giving us that respect in return. That's where the joking and grousing come in. As they used to say in my DD's social skills class: "is this a big problem, or a little problem?" We can joke about little problems. Big problems deserve different treatment. And sometimes talking with friends helps us to figure that out.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1061 | Registered: Aug 2012
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Respect is critical in a relationship. I think one of those studies looking at which Ms have good MC outcomes found that eyerolling was a big predictor of poor outcomes. But sometimes we have to figure out whether that person is deserving of respect -- we have to keep our ability to assess that person independently, as to whether they're worthy of that respect and giving us that respect in return. That's where the joking and grousing come in. As they used to say in my DD's social skills class: "is this a big problem, or a little problem?" We can joke about little problems. Big problems deserve different treatment. And sometimes talking with friends helps us to figure that out.

This is a good point. I have a friend who is in the process of divorcing her husband. Just recently, she started talking to people about what was going on in their marriage. She had gotten so used to his controlling, mentally abusive behavior that she lost her sense of what "normal" was. It wasn't until she opened up to other people that she realized how abnormal and unhealthy her marriage was. I have worked with her for six years and I had NO idea how bad it was. So sometimes, yes, it is good to get an outside perspective.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 3:15 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6835 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

But sometimes we have to figure out whether that person is deserving of respect

To me that is the wrong focus. It's just those times when it's so critical. Regadless of whether they are WE ARE. When we disrespect another it's ourselves that takes the real hit.

That's what integrity is all about, to me. Not determining whether the recipient should be treated with kindness or an ass beating but what will it cost me if I am the one delivering it. You don't escape unscathed and if you really enjoy it you've delivered a potentially fatal blow. To yourself.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

It wasn't until she opened up to other people that she realized how abnormal and unhealthy her marriage was

You know Jana, I get this completely. The problem with it is that we only tend to share our perspective. We've seen that here. One spouse will join then the other comes along and oh, looky there...that little bon mot was left right the fuck out of that story.

I've seen posts where members have posted about a horrible fight they had that hurt them very badly. What horrible comment was made and how deeply it cut. Then they proceed to blythly mention they eviscerated completely but how understandable it was. Why was he/she mad? Didn't they see my pain? Um, no. They were too busy trying to find their missing parts and wondering if they'd ever be functional again.

One of my good SI friends and I do this all the time. Call each other on shit. We see when the other is looking at things in ways that may leave pretty big pieces out of the complete picture. There is not one time no matter how angry or hurt we've been that it's couched as a personal attach on our partners. It's the actions not the men addressed.

Now, ourselves???? We get quite creative laughing about our stupid shit.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

10 minutes grousing about male inadequacies, generally along the lines of "they just don't get it" with respect to taking care of the kids & managing the household

Maybe it's my experiences that make this a real hot button with me. Many time it's the men that seem to get that far better than some women I've seen.

Some women can create their own obsticals and extra work with expectations that are not realistic or even necessary.

Again, my views. Also having a mother that looked like Wes Craven dreamed her up rather than Betty Crocker, I'm not an instant ally just because of gender.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
MoreWould
Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

UO

Maybe your post is deeper than even you know, but I love where it takes me.

As one who put his foot in the MH pond and didn't like the water, I wasn't remotely offended by anything you said. Don't worry about it.

But, I have gotten a few "Holier than thou" slams over my status here. Usually when I start going deep, and way past hating my FWW, possibly even starting to relate to where she was coming from. Plenty of broken, fucked up people have A's, but plenty of relatively normal folks do too. I think we call that the Human Condition. I'm a lot less judgmental and more forgiving than I used to be, and I get called out for it here sometimes.

As far as your meme about the many layers of disrespect and infidelity, I don't want this to degenerate into the American Taliban where nobody can say nothing to nobody lest they be stoned, but I completely agree. Impressive. Keep it up.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 3:44 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 357 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

MoreWould, I think you just had an unfortunate and ambiguous choice of words earlier. SI is quite safe for madhatters, but I do recommend wearing a helmet.
I have gotten a few "Holier than thou" slams over my status here.
I've gotten a few over the fact I am divorcing, and a few over the fact I took so long to do it, and I think one of my first PM's way way back was being slammed for my posts being too long because I was actually thinking instead of being supportive. It is what it is, we are dealing with humans here.
Plenty of broken, fucked up people have A's, but plenty of relatively normal folks do too. I think we call that the Human Condition.
That's the painful part, we are all just human. Doesn't mean we can't aspire to something better.

As for the studies about who spends more time on household stuff, I don't know how one would even study that unless they moved into the house. I believe those hours would be self reported, and one of my friends who is getting divorced would lose big time in those studies. His STBX would spend 4 hours a day making lists of jobs for him to do in the two hours of free time he had between supper and bed. Now I know this is one anecdotal data point, but she really resented the imbalance in household responsibilities this represented, and I am sure complained to her friends about it.

[This message edited by aesir at 4:55 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Sometimes I wonder how arguments would go down and change if any and all gender references had to be taken out of the equation. I mean that in my own household as much as any other.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

That just shows that it is helpful to talk to you.

Hmmm, she does me the same way though. Idk, maybe its the people I am around. I dont do "yes men." People that always agree with you come off as really fake to me.

[This message edited by NikkiD at 4:38 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)]


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

t/j

out her going smooth the hell off on him.

Oh my God. This is just golden. I love how you said this!!! You have a real delicious way with words. Mad props.

End t/j


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 5:19 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Interesting...when I was saying our vows in my head shortly after D-day, " to love, honour, cherish..." I realized how I did NOT honour or cherish him many times over with my negative, unfriendly behaviour. And yet to others, I made it sound like all was great. I too was NOT being honest and he was not feeling the love.

This has SHOCKED us back into a new and much better reality. I haven't even used my "tone" in months!

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2483 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
She-Ra
Member
Member # 36033
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

UO, this is a great topic. I tend to agree with you on many of your subjects but I do have to take a read a few times before I truly understand lol.

Faithfulness does come in many shapes and sizes which I'm just in the beginning stages of learning.

In terms of financials, both my BH and I are guilty of wayward behavior. It is coming back to bite us big time however we are working together to fixing and transparency seems to be the key. No big purchase decision is ever made without agreeing first and debt repayment is a joint effort too.

Cleaning up our marriage in general from the variety of both our waywardness. In terms of sexual, I was the only one who truly broke those vows but both of us have been guilty of breaking other vows to each other as well.

I notice a lot of conversation about bashing spouses and that is always something that has bugged me. I'm lucky that I have friends that don't sit and bash our husbands the moment we can. In fact, we try to put them in highest regard. I do agree I think there is a difference between bashing your spouse or going to your friend about advice on a problem. One of my BFFs has been having a lot of struggles with her husband and she fears that I would look upon him badly. I have assured her that I wouldn't do that and if she is having problems, she can feel safe by talking to me about it. That has helped but I don't see her bashing him at all, just reaching out.

As for MoreWould's comments about madhatters.. I disagree.

I think there is a lot of support here on SI for our MH friends. With that being said, I can see why a MH might have a hard time if they play their BS card all the time and forget about their WS status.. As many wise MH have noted on here, they can get more work done on themselves when they wear their WS hat.

Finally, I'm going to weigh in on the whole gender references and household work discussion. I totally agree that some women become task masters and obsess over a 'honey-do' list. Now I'm the second person to say that my BH can be a little lazy on housework. (the first person to say it would be my mother and I tell her to back off. No I dont complain to her about my BH, she just has a big mouth when it comes to housework and opinions on how things should be done)

Anyways! I think the case should always be that both partners make a joint effort on what needs to be done to run a household. My BH and I do have an agreement on different chores that each of us are responsible for and agreed to co-parent that way as well. Nagging and bitching at each other about housework doesn't get anything done and expecting perfection out of each other creates resentment. When I see housework come up as one of the reasons why a WW has an affair, I cringe. I had a laundry list of blameshifting reasons that I cheated over but I didn't put housework down as one of them. I may not have thought he was pulling his full weight but I wasn't thinking that was a cause for me to fool around with another guy...

Well that's enough about that from me. Interesting thread that developed here and I did enjoy reading everyone's thoughts..


WW/BW 33 BH/WH 34
1 year old beautiful daughter

Posts: 862 | Registered: Jul 2012
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 6:37 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

"Why can't my husband get a sock in the laundry basket?". If "his" aiming skills have been critiqued it usually has companions that are far more critical and demeaning. If someone is "bitching" it's not normally so "bland" for a lack of a better word and represents quite a bit more than missing the laundry. Is it really ever about that?

I see where you're coming from, but I can only speak from my experiences. And in this case, yes that is really all it is about. My friends and I are just generally doing light bitching/joking. We've often done it with the H's right there, and they get in on the joke too.

I'm not trying to come off like I'm perfect or anything. I'm sure at some time in my life I have said something nasty about my H to someone. I can't remember any time, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened (although I do have an awesome memory ). I know my faults, I've got a quick temper, I'm too judgmental, I can be hypocritical (the whole "do as I say not as I do"), and I understand that my WH has his own personality faults. Unfortunately his personality faults ended up with me being grievously through, honest to God, no fault of my own.

Anyhoo, I'm pretty sure I got way off topic in this response, so sorry about that. I think that what I will take from this thread, is that maybe we all need to take a look at our own actions and see how they are affecting our relationships.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

Steadfast in affection or allegiance.

Is being disrespectful as you run them down to others not a breach of that before anyone else is even a thought during your "private moments"?

Hmm. For some reason, when I read this it makes me think of the Love Busters that Dr. Harley writes about. I know he's unpopular... I think his list makes some interesting points, though. Selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, dishonesty, annoying habits, independent behavior.

The angry outbursts one stands out because it's the most blatant. That thread about financial dishonesty has been mentioned - definitely, that and many other ways in being dishonest is a betrayal, because you're concealing yourself or something important about your lives from your life partner. Talking badly about your spouse to others, definitely disrespectful judgments, especially if it would hurt your spouse's feelings when s/he felt like they were trying their best... Independent behavior confused me for a moment - shouldn't a person be independent in general - but it might mean making decisions without your spouse in mind - choosing not to be a team player.

Maybe that's what the big indicator is, does it make a marriage less of a team?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

In our case, it turned bad fast when we stopped believing in each other. We were stuck at an impasse and were each unhappy. This resulted in a natural regression involving continuous degrading respect, down to resentment, anger, and contempt towards each other at times. It was a mess. I think in Meher Baba terms, we reached a point of involution and failed.

I believe respecting our spouse can be very different sometimes as compared to respecting people in general or even our children. With couples, respect engenders respect, or inversely the relationship will degrade quickly. High on the list for couples is listening, accepting, being sensitive, -not forms of maintaining peace, but forms of respect in which I began failing at when I stopped believing.

As for my wife, it wasn't necessarily a lack of respect towards me in the beginning, but a phobia of confrontation, poor communication skills, and resentment. It was manipulation, lying, and inconsistent craziness, -the reasons why I gave up. Also, she carried a boat load of unsolved hurt which she balled me with. I became distant which supported her beliefs and added fuel to the fire.

Lack of respect, yes. But it was part of the natural regression, or malignant regression, I think.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 788 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

For some reason, when I read this it makes me think of the Love Busters that Dr. Harley writes about. I know he's unpopular...

I don't know that he is so much unpopular, as his stuff often gets applied inappropriately. I actually found out about him here when I first joined. Some of his followers however do seem to almost deify him. He was a pioneer in the field, having come in when marriage counselling was synonymous with headed for divorce. It is however a rapidly evolving field as people start to talk about such things openly.

Independent behavior confused me for a moment - shouldn't a person be independent in general - but it might mean making decisions without your spouse in mind - choosing not to be a team player.
I think you have the right interpretation silverhopes. Just an unfortunate choice of words, when perhaps unilateral or self serving might have been better.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, March 19th (Tuesday)

For some reason, when I read this it makes me think of the Love Busters that Dr. Harley writes about. I know he's unpopular...

I don't know that he is so much unpopular, as his stuff often gets applied inappropriately. I actually found out about him here when I first joined. Some of his followers however do seem to almost deify him. He was a pioneer in the field, having come in when marriage counselling was synonymous with headed for divorce. It is however a rapidly evolving field as people start to talk about such things openly.

Independent behavior confused me for a moment - shouldn't a person be independent in general - but it might mean making decisions without your spouse in mind - choosing not to be a team player.
I think you have the right interpretation silverhopes. Just an unfortunate choice of words, when perhaps unilateral or self serving might have been better.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:08 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Yes, unilateral would have been a much better word choice. I think he meant it to contrast his concept of interdependence, but by itself independence doesn't seem like a bad thing!

I think most of the disagreement is toward his belief that deficiencies in marriages usually lead to affairs, even though he acknowledges that the decision is on the wayward. I think on SI we examine what inside the wayward made having an A an option for him/her in the first place instead of doing something healthy - also that not all Ms were in a bad way. I'm rethinking some of what he and Dr. Glass said though instead of black and white thinking, and there are a lot of gems in their work. I think he has some very good ideas on how to care for and nurture your M in general. Certainly a good set of guidelines with the Love Busters. Subtle things that aren't always obvious with selfishness and big picture things like affairs, but still harmful to the M. Rather than doing it for the purpose of preventing affairs, it would be great to do it in general as a sign of love and respect for the M and your partner.

Then again, I think some of the hooks with a lot of the books written about affairs (not all) are designed so that the reader (usually directed towards a BS, though again not always) feels a sense of power or capability to prevent such a terrible thing from happening. That's how they sell. Good ideas and techniques, but they give a misplaced sense of control when certain things we just cannot control, no matter how we phrase it.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 5:17 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I think most of the disagreement is toward his belief that deficiencies in marriages usually lead to affairs, even though he acknowledges that the decision is on the wayward. I think on SI we examine what inside the wayward made having an A an option for him/her in the first place instead of doing something healthy - also that not all Ms were in a bad way.

I think he may have suffered from a professional field bias. I often saw this in University where my professors would set up third order differential equations to solve problems where high school physics could do it in 3 simple steps (drove them nuts to see all that blank space after a correct answer). He made his career studying relationships, and overlooked factors that did not fall within his field of study.

Back when I joined (with the sole goal of stopping the affair and saving my marriage), I read a lot, not just here, but elsewhere. As a matter of self defence in the interests of knowing my enemy, I read the web pages and summaries for all the "get laid" courses for sale, the NLP seduction courses, everything. One thing they all seemed to agree on is to look for discontent, they felt that a contented person could not be seduced. Then they generally advised on ways to nurture that discontent to make the target more receptive. What they saw, and that Dr. Race missed with his focus on relationships, was that relationships are not the only source of discontentment. One could have a perfect marriage, yet be discontent about career, relatives, neighbors, the price of gas, whatever. Some people are content with very little, others are like Alexander The Great(ly dysfunctional) and weep when they have the whole world because there is nothing more. Back when I joined, there was a member who would apparently channel Buddha with this line: "It is not the waters fault the broken cup can not be filled." I think Dr. Race missed out on a lot of that because he specialized too much in relationships. If all you know about are hammers, there are a lot of things that look like nails.

**Public Service Announcement**
Ladies, if you ever meet a guy who works suggestions you should try or need a "new direction" into a conversation, run -- He is likely a playah that has read an NLP get laid course. Probably going to make you feel miserable even if you have good boundaries.

I think he has some very good ideas on how to care for and nurture your M in general. Certainly a good set of guidelines with the Love Busters.
Certainly, though they do seem a lot like common sense. You know, don't ignore your spouse and treat them like a servant, don't be an abusive prick or a nagging harpy, don't spend the food and rent money on beer, hunting gear, or shoes.
The other thing to keep in mind is that his focus is on fixing troubled marriages, not infidelity. No matter how many of his "love bank" deposits you try to make, it doesn't matter if the tellers window is closed.

Then again, I think some of the hooks with a lot of the books written about affairs (not all) are designed so that the reader (usually directed towards a BS, though again not always) feels a sense of power or capability to prevent such a terrible thing from happening. That's how they sell. Good ideas and techniques, but they give a misplaced sense of control when certain things we just cannot control, no matter how we phrase it.
Yep! Who the hell wants to buy a book from an expert that tells you there is nothing you can do. As much as I hated the idea of having to order Not Just Friends, there was a sort of warm fuzzy hopeful feeling when it arrived.

...rather than Betty Crocker
^^^This has been in my peripheral vision since I began this post. Thanks UO, now I want a fluffy white cake with chocolate frosting.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

One of my good SI friends and I do this all the time. Call each other on shit. We see when the other is looking at things in ways that may leave pretty big pieces out of the complete picture. There is not one time no matter how angry or hurt we've been that it's couched as a personal attach on our partners. It's the actions not the men addressed.

That is a true, good, valuable friend.

Ladies, if you ever meet a guy who works suggestions you should try or need a "new direction" into a conversation, run -- He is likely a playah that has read an NLP get laid course. Probably going to make you feel miserable even if you have good boundaries.

Just out of curiousity - what sort of suggestions/new directions? What would this look like? And what does NLP stand for?

One thing they all seemed to agree on is to look for discontent, they felt that a contented person could not be seduced. Then they generally advised on ways to nurture that discontent to make the target more receptive.

This is very true. And I think some people instinctively know how to work this angle. When I was in college, I was very unhappy with my life in general. It had a lot to do with the fact that I was unhappy with school and terrified of graduating and figuring out what I needed to do with my life. But after making a nice new charming "friend" at work I somehow decided that all this angst was due to my relationship with my boyfriend of four years and ended up in a relationship-ending EA with my new "friend." And after we broke up, I learned via mutual friends that he worked that angle over and over and over again on different women. What a fool I was. Lesson learned.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6835 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

If an ea can be something that can occur whenever any form of communication with a member of the opposite sex is not ok wouldn't airing at your spouses private failings as well as denigration of the gender they represent be considered unfaithful?

Well if we are going to quibble semantics, I would say your definition of an EA is a bit off the mark. I think most would agree that an ea includes a transfer of emotional allegiance/loyalty from the spouse to the AP.

Now obviouslly that would then be a form of communication that is not ok. But by your definition, the woman who went around bitching about her husband to everyone who would listen would be involved in multiple As at once.

I agree with you though. I think the "bitching" is a form of disrespect and men or women who like to gather in same sex groups and rag on their spouses are only feeding each others fuels of disrepsect for their spouses. That is wrong.

But there is a difference between the Manhaters Anonymous group and the woman who goes to a friend because her H's drinking has gotten so out of hand he was arrested for a DUI and she needs advice (throw out all the alcohol in the house, drag him to AA) or simply emotional support (you can get through this. It's hard now, but you can do it).

I think one situation is toxic and disrespectful the other is perfectly acceptable. The difference is intent. The Manhaters are seeking attention and entertaining their friends at the expense of their spouse's dignity and reputation. The other is not.

Uncertainone, I think you touch on a very important concept though and that is disrespect being part of the slippery slope for some. But I think many times it is not just a lack of respect for the BS, but a lack of self respect.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 916 | Registered: Jun 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Excellent points, Josephine85! I knew there was something not quite right with the statement you quoted and you have stated what is wrong perfectly. I agree with all your points, too.

If we can't talk to our friends about our personal life, what the hell is the point in having friends? IDK, I don't enjoy talking about the weather all that much. (BTW, it is freaking 7 degrees here on the first day of Spring. GGGGRRRRR! )


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I'm obviously not talking about BS's after d day or for quite some time after. At some point, though there needs to be reflection for growth.

The "any complaints the wayward has is bullshit" is in itself bullshit for quite a few.

I've posted this before and been told by some that while they agree this is a site to recover from infidelity not shitty marriages.

Well, my possition is "this" is infidelity as well. Not fucking someone else is not, in and of itself faithful, not even if you masticate that definition as well.

So uncertainone, I COMPLETELY agree with you on your points. I think at some point a BS has to stop extracting retribution from their WS if they really want to R.

I would agree that some have an attitude that the WS has no right to complain. I would add to that and say some have the attitude that a WS's A invalidated their right to have a difference in opinion from the BS, including in non-A related issues.

I disagree that any of this bad behavior from a BS (and again I think we agree we are not referring to someone who has recently JFO or had TT) constitutes infidelity. I think the behavior is abusive.

It may also indicate a withdrawal of affection or respect for their WS. But I don't believe it is necessairily infidelity because I feel a key component to infidelity is when importance/priority/allegiance/loyalty/affection is removed from the spouse AND given to someone else.

t/j unagie I understand why you would not want to read the threads where the BS share what their WS said or did. I think most who participate do it for catharthic reasons. It's not stuff we can share IRL. Here it is anonymous. It can not harm our WS. It will not forever color the way someone IRL thinks about our WH. But it helps the BS to know other WS say and do exactly the same things. It makes us feel not alone. If I see that everyone elses WS called their AP their soulmate and now say they can't believe they ever said that and love their BS with all their heart, it makes it easier to believe my WS when he says the same thing.

You wouldn't trust a research study with a sample of 1, but you would be more likely to trust the result of a study with a sample of 100 or 1000. Same thing.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 916 | Registered: Jun 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

But I think many times it is not just a lack of respect for the BS, but a lack of self respect.

Josephine, I wasn't just speaking about "WS" as are defined here. That was kind of the point of my post.

Lack of self respect is behind all breaches.

Sister Milkshake, so you believe talking about personal life with friends equates to complaining about marriage?

Sorry, I don't. I have friends. I've had these friends for years. My husband was never part of my dicussions and I covered many areas of my personal life. My job, kids, personal issues I was struggling with (as in my own). Many very full helpful conversations.

Yes, I understand looking for support from a friend. Again, talking about an issue like the DUI is quite a bit different than saying my ass hat husband got a DUI. You may very well feel it. It may very well be true, but if you honestly feel that way about your spouse then get out.

Privacy is talked about around here a lot. How waywards aren't entitled to it. Bullshit. They need to learn what the fucking word means and it ain't shitting behind a closed door. That's modesty...and in some cases consideration and a respect for life.

Privacy is the bubble the two of you wrap around the marriage where certain topics of off limits to other's. They're kept between the two of you.

I know that this may not resonate with all. To me, that's what maintaining self respect is about. How you treat others. I don't doubt people on this site and in real life are married to people that are far from nice healthy individuals. So, making plans and having a goal to bounce is a very valid viable solution. Running them down to others is destroying your self respect and does nothing to help the situation at all.

Read studies recently done about venting. It does the opposite everyone may think it does. It exacerbates negative thinking and even can hard code it. Not a real surprise as anything done repeatedly does tend to make one better at it.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
PeaceLove187
Member
Member # 33559
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Interesting discussion. Personally I think complaining about your spouse is a complicated, multi-layed act. Are the complaints major or minor? Are they part of social interaction or are they aired with the goal of justifying wayward behavior? I guess the biggest factor is whether the complaints are tinged with anger or fondness. I can fondly complain to my friends about my H's failure to hit the clothes hamper and nobody would read eminent divorce into my tone. But I kept my mouth shut about his infidelity because, among other reasons, it felt disloyal.

One of the challenges I see with SI is that we're trying to hand out solid advice while seeing only a few layers of the poster's relationship. It's a bit like my H claiming he complained about me to his secret women friends in order to get advice. How could they judge the validity of his point of view while receiving only his point of view? That's pretty much what we get here--the poster's point of view--but we do the best we can. For all I know the BS complaining bitterly may be a horrible person and their WS should run as fast and far as they can, but that doesn't change the truth that an A is always the wrong choice. That's choice, not mistake--we make mistakes when we're trying to do the right thing and it doesn't work out the way we'd planned. There is nothing "right" about an A.

But I do worry that complaining about my H's As here on SI is at some level disloyal. I defend it (justify it?) by focusing on the fact that nobody here knows his name or my name and nobody here has any ulterior motives in giving me advice. I'm not soliciting sympathy in order to justify or promote other disloyal acts as he was during his As. But still--complaining allows me to continue to focus on the bad when there's so much good to look at instead. And when a wayward walks away from his secret life and absorbs all the emotional whacks an angry BS can deliver without resorting to his previous coping mechanism of turning to an AP---Wow, that's a lot of good stuff.


BW--Me, 57
FWH--Him, 59
Married 35 years
Empty Nesters

Posts: 639 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Midwest
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I disagree that any of this bad behavior from a BS (and again I think we agree we are not referring to someone who has recently JFO or had TT) constitutes infidelity. I think the behavior is abusive.

I didn't talk about "infidelity" and I was talking about in marriage overall. I said the definition of faithful consistent in affection and loyalty. Talking about how your husband/wife is a fucking child, idiot, or any of the other wonderful traits rolled out I overhear daily ain't that. Don't care what you call the lack of it.

My friend and I were discussing this yesterday and she brought up a camping trip we were on. 10 couples at Don Pedro. Nice place but some areas not resort like.

Friends of ours had twin 5 year olds and a 3 year old. The wife decided after dinner and relaxing that they needed a shower and her hubby needed to handle it. We were at a lake but they needed to be clean to be comfortable. Yeah, the 3 year old was asleep against a stump and the 5 year olds were in a booger fight. They were fine.

Every time hubby got up it was "are you going to take them?" along with litte digs. Made everyone uncomfortable. Finally he got up, took the boys to the shower where you could hear them screaming because a pterodactyl or some other large flying thing was buzzing them brought them back silently putting them next to her grabbed a beer and went and sat in his boat.

"Fine, go pout, such a fucking child". I quietly informed her I doubt he was pouting but actually saving her life because from where I was sitting I saw white smoke. The man was either a saint or at least a pope as she was still breathing.

She had picked and run him down all day. If this was rare or even not that common I'd dismiss it but I see it and hear it all the time. I'm sure men do it too. Not faithful. Not pleasant. Not funny. Not attractive.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

t/j

out her going smooth the hell off on him.
Oh my God. This is just golden. I love how you said this!!! You have a real delicious way with words. Mad props.

End t/j

Thank ya kindly!


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
ophelia24
Member
Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Oooohh yes UO, your example you gave about the camping trip is very commonplace and its real ugly to see and hear. The dripping disdain and lack of respect/kindness that your example illustrates guts relationships I reckon. And it is usually women who do this to men, and men often think they are keeping the peace by not standing up for themselves. Which fuels the lack of respect going on in this dynamic.

There is lots of resentment built up in interactions we witness between couples, and I have become very conscious of it myself. And have also been guilty of it over the 20 years Ive been married. Yuck! Once you recognise this shit, there is no unseeing it and I do NOT want to be one of those couples who decimate each other.

Fantastic thread you started.


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 283 | Registered: Feb 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I do not mind the complaining its the comments that put all WS' into the same category that bother me. When someone complains about their WS and someone else responds "yes my did that too..." and it continues that is fine but when someone complains and the comments go to "well that's just how waywards are" or "how stupid are these waywards" or so on it seems like all waywards get included in that and it triggers me bacuse I know I've never done the things complained about in that particular post. I know venting is venting which is why I typically step out of those threads even though inside I really am screaming not all waywards do that or think that way!!!

Sorry for the t/j again..


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2769 | Registered: Oct 2012
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

And it is usually women who do this to men

No, not necessarily. Maybe I've just chosen some exceptionally disrespectful partners, but both ex and my H have done this, right in front of their other friends, more than once. To the point where their friends were laughing and joining in while I was standing there with a stupid look on my face. In H's case, he started in on me about how stupid I am, and his friend was standing there nodding, going, "Yeah, yeah!" Other times telling me to get out of our room when his friend came over, then storming out if I wasn't fast enough or if son was nursing. It felt horrible being treated that way. For a long time I tried to consider what it was they were telling me to change so I could stop being annoying/stupid/insert adjective of choice here. Til I realized that it was deliberately hurtful. I don't understand what makes that OK. That is was to my face instead of behind my back? (though I overheard it behind my back as well several time, one incident in particular after being butt-dialed on accident). Actually, what made it "OK" is that I put up with it. No one should.

He made his career studying relationships, and overlooked factors that did not fall within his field of study.

That makes sense. He only knows his aquarium. Or maybe he thinks that a healthy M should be the lifeblood of a couple, and so the M should be able to solve the other issues as well? But that's not quite how it works. We're team, but also still individuals with individual dysfunctions.

One could have a perfect marriage, yet be discontent about career, relatives, neighbors, the price of gas, whatever.

This exactly. And that's what we cannot control in our spouses... Only the person who feels that way can control it. Or in some cases ask for support if they know how to or where. So many layers to explore. Or in some cases, simple acceptance (like about those gas prices) - this condition exists, I don't like it, but it is what it is, and it doesn't have to make everything hurt in life.

Alexander The Great(ly dysfunctional) and weep when they have the whole world because there is nothing more.

NLP

Neuro-Linguistic Programming?

My husband was never part of my dicussions and I covered many areas of my personal life. My job, kids, personal issues I was struggling with (as in my own). Many very full helpful conversations.

Yes, I understand looking for support from a friend. Again, talking about an issue like the DUI is quite a bit different than saying my ass hat husband got a DUI.

Hmm. I very much like your distinction. A subtle yet very important boundary you illustrate and inspire. Thank you UO.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:49 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Josephine85

t/j unagie I understand why you would not want to read the threads where the BS share what their WS said or did. I think most who participate do it for catharthic reasons. It's not stuff we can share IRL. Here it is anonymous. It can not harm our WS. It will not forever color the way someone IRL thinks about our WH. But it helps the BS to know other WS say and do exactly the same things. It makes us feel not alone. If I see that everyone elses WS called their AP their soulmate and now say they can't believe they ever said that and love their BS with all their heart, it makes it easier to believe my WS when he says the same thing.

But is it though? Anonymous and not hurtful I mean? It’s a public forum, and threads are read by hundreds if not thousands of complete and utter strangers. If I were a wayward getting the type of bashing that is seen in here regularly, I would be deeply hurt by it, if it was MY spouse who was doing it.

I am not a WS, I am the BS, but one thing I try to live by is trying to walk in the shoes of others. And I can honestly say if I had been the wayward party and my BS was on here spouting a lot of pretty hateful stuff about me on a regular basis, whether we call it venting or cathartic or whatever, I would NOT be happy with it at all. I would find it a form of betrayal and a breach of trust. And I know our wayward partners betrayed our trust, but two wrongs never make a right.

Again though, my comments aren’t aimed at people in the direct aftermath of their JFO days. Although I found this forum after I had JFO, I didn’t register or post for a good 6 months, but I do understand that on finding out initially we are nowhere near rational in our thought process (well many of us, that is) and I can understand the “lashing out” that goes on in that period, I just don’t understand THAT level of lashing out for THAT (long) length of time. It just doesn’t strike me as healthy or productive to either party.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Hmm. Curious about something. If you describe an incident like the one I did above - with my H calling me stupid - is that disrespecting my H by talking about him or is that seeking support? I was careful not to call him names, careful to say "it hurts me" instead of spewing epithets about him, but does simply talking about it fall under the category of disrespectful judgments or independent behavior? Is that something that should be kept within the M or within IC? Asking because it's an uncomfortable question, and uncomfortable questions are usually the ones that need the answers!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

...Also because when we're in process of building new habits, it's important to know how to make the new habits the healthiest and most respectful ones they can be.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 2:19 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Silverhopes, I don’t know if that question was directed at me, but I will answer anyway, hope that’s ok.

All I can say is, I didn’t find your comment horrible or even that bad. That level of “laundry airing” I can live with. If I had spoken to/treated my husband in the way yours spoke/treated you, and he had wrote a comment on an internet forum along the lines of your comment above, no I would not have considered it a major breach (though to be honest I personally wouldn’t be delighted with it either, but that’s just me/us personally, I don’t really share that much about my marriage or my husband on the internet, and I hope he doesn’t either, I think we both agree when it comes to sharing anything personal over our marriage or eachother, we only do it with 2 very close friends. I know his “person” and he knows mine. And they are both close friends) . It’s hard for me to explain what I do mean with offensive, the posts I object to are plentiful on general and JFO, but they are FAR harsher than your example. So much harsher actually they are not even comparable to your example. It’s more the type of posts and the sweeping generalization (about waywards) that Unagie refers to. Also the level of vehemence is high, very high IMO, and there is nothing constructive about them. They are just hateful and filled with spite and massive generalisations.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I can understand the “lashing out” that goes on in that period, I just don’t understand THAT level of lashing out for THAT (long) length of time. It just doesn’t strike me as healthy or productive to either party.
You explained it. You don't understand.

I have found, AnneOther, that there are, in very general terms here, that there are two groups of BS's here. One of the groups I call the "venty" group and the other is the "zen and forgiveness" group. Yes, many times the two groups are in one or both of the groups at any given time. It depends where you are on the roller coaster ride and what kind of person you are at your core.

What works for one group isn't going to work for the other group. It is because we are all different. Isn't that great? I don't want a world where everyone thinks, feels, does, expresses, reacts, etc. etc., just like me, and believe me, I know the world wouldn't want that either.

Just accept that other BS's have different needs and process differently than you. Doesn't mean that it isn't healthy and productive to that person, and is kind of presumptuous to think it isn't. However, I agree for other people it wouldn't be healthy and productive because that isn't the kind of person they are.

I am not talking about some who might be wallowing in that anger. I am talking about BS's that may lash out and vent. Maybe they had a trigger and it is d-day all over again. Maybe they are still suffering from the effects of PISD. It does happen at 3 years after d-day. No one gets to decide what THAT length of time is going to be.

eta: If there is a thread filled with "massive generalizations" I have found the mods here pretty quick to shut that kind of thing down. If perchance a mod misses something in a thread that is "massively generalized" or even mildly so it should be brought to the attention of the mod and the poster. SI has awesome mods that are always on the lookout for those types of things, in general.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 2:47 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I think I see what you mean by your distinction. Vitriol takes it to another level of disrespect.

I think this:

though to be honest I personally wouldn’t be delighted with it either

is equally important though and good to be mindful of. It probably would hurt H's feelings, so maybe something I shouldn't say, for that reason. Thank you for answering my question AnneOther!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Sistermilkshake,

Just accept that other BS's have different needs and process differently than you. Doesn't mean that it isn't healthy and productive to that person, and is kind of presumptuous to think it isn't. However, I agree for other people it wouldn't be healthy and productive because that isn't the kind of person they are.

Oh I do exactly that, daily! It’s not as though I go around the forum trying to police how people think or post or act or speak, in fact I bite my tongue continuously at inaccurate and unfair sweeping generalisations. But since this thread is specifically about this very topic, then it struck me as the perfect place to state my opinion on this matter.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Red  Posted: 3:22 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

AnneOther,

This site is highly moderated and generalizations are against the guidelines. If you see a problem with people posting generalizations as opposed to their opinions, please PM a moderator.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

SI Staff,

Oh I would if I thought it was big deal, I don’t, not really. Not a big enough deal to report members for. And to be honest, I don’t know where the line can be drawn with the type of comments I mean. My sweeping generalization might be the next person’s opinion. I just feel in a thread that is about respect/disrespect/faithfulness/denigration that it’s the ideal place to air these feelings I have as I do think that infidelity is not the only way to be unfaithful in a marriage. The type of comments I am referring to are in my opinion a form of being unfaithful.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
2Old4ThisCrap
New Member
Member # 38771
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

Are the complaints major or minor? Are they part of social interaction or are they aired with the goal of justifying wayward behavior? I guess the biggest factor is whether the complaints are tinged with anger or fondness.

This. A former boyfriend, I found out later, was bashing me at work to his department. Never positive, and sometimes nasty. When I found out? I was devastated. You see? That bf was an emotional and verbal abuser. I got called bitch, idiot , stupid and what not. Even used the C bomb once. It was bad enough that he treated me horribly at home. When I found out he was publicly putting me down? It was, in a way, far worse. My humiliation was public.

I have no doubt that one day he went on to cheat. Maybe he did it to me, and I just didn't know it. But looking back? He was justifying his bad behavior by telling others how 'bad' I was.

I now look at anyone who trashes their SO with a jaded eye, and I hate to say it... But especially the WSs that are venting. Yes, no one is perfect, but many a time, I think... How is that WS treating their BS... What we may see as horrible, may have been a reaction to the fallout of their A. Maybe not. But I wonder if that FWS has done everything they 'should.'. Like full transparency, no passwords, no blameshifting, willingingness to discuss details, etc. Does that make sense?

IMO if I found my FWS here bitching about me after I had pulled myself out of the hell that his A caused? I would feel betrayed all over again. Maybe I'm letting my experience color my reaction? I don't know.

Interesting viewpoints by all...


Posts: 6 | Registered: Mar 2013
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:49 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

what sort of suggestions/new directions? What would this look like?

T/J for Jana... To use a trite (but real-life) example, they would seek out the hottest woman and, instead of complimenting her, they would find something to criticize, like "that (ring, earring, necklace) is so beautiful... it's very popular with (some derogatory group)". Dig for insecurities. That kind of "neg" puts you on the defensive and adds to your negative self-talk. Which makes you an easier target.

It's easy to see it in print and find it unbelievable that anyone would fall for it, but you can see examples of people clinging to people who neg them just on this site alone.

Don't ask me why I know a lot about fast seduction.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6102 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

^^^ There was this one book called "The Game" written by someone named Neil Strauss that went into a lot of their techniques (from his first-hand experience). I saw a version scanned online once... Another technique would be to go after the second-hottest girl in the group to make the hottest one jealous because it's a form of negging... Apparently there's a whole community (the pickup artist or PUA) dedicated to this.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 6:48 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

**EDIT**
Dammit, I seem to keep getting everything as a double click the last little while.

[This message edited by aesir at 7:21 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)

I fear I may have created a t/j.
My point was to illustrate the flaw in the apparent theory that it was a relationship flaw that lead to affairs, and how some of the general marital advice can break down when it comes to being faithful.

I hope to be content when I die, and I hope I never feel it before then. Discontent is good, it got us out of the caves and helped put a man on the moon. It drives us everyday to sustain our lives by seeking food when we are hungry. Maybe accepting that it is natural, and not your spouses job to fix would prevent a lot of the problem behavior. If one is upset that the children are dirty at the lake, it does not make their spouse a worthless POS if they are not rushing to have the children washed, rinsed, sanitized, and given a mani/pedi immediately, it might just be that camping is not your thing.

As far as the whole disrespectful venting thing goes, I know that in my case it was not who my wife was saying such horrible things to, because I either already did not give a shit about them, or knew I could place them in that category if needed. It was that she could say such horrible things to someone in the first place, and not stand up for me when others decided to join in on the bashing.

ETA:
That last bit was actually harder to deal with than her EA, even though the two were linked. I could understand the attraction to others, I could understand the caring about others, the idea of temporarily getting the priorities wrong was painful, but I still can not find any way to accept or address the shit that was said.

[This message edited by aesir at 7:19 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:17 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

It was that she could say such horrible things to someone in the first place, and not stand up for me when others decided to join in on the bashing.

Yeah. That one hurts.

I fear I may have created a t/j

According to that awesome book Moo recommended*, everything relates anyway if you have capellini for brains!... Err, something like that!

* The book's hypothesis is that some folks have brains like waffles - able to compartmentalize - while others have brains like spaghetti - everything interconnects and relates with everything else.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:25 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 2:43 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

People posting here about their spouses don't always do this in their real lives, and some not at all. In fact, the point of coming to SI is to look anew at the history of the marriage and whether or not reconciliation would be a wise idea or a foolish one. Some of this requires venting, explanation, listing pros and cons, writing about faults that may turn out to be typical Mars vs. Venus stuff when comparing to others, or could be serious or abusive behavior the member posting had downplayed for so long the true extent of it was hidden.

People should be able to vent a little here - or seek opinions about a spouse's behavior or choices - in this public and (hopefully, forever) anonymous board, so it's not disloyal since no one outside the board should know who is being discussed. Objective professional counseling is not always available to all.

Faithfulness and the capability of being faithful is a subject often discussed here. I would think most BS are fearful of being hurt again, and it should be understandable about why they have a fear of faithlessness with statistics seeming bleak, and even some people here will write about how monogamy is unrealistic and a naive, unsophisticated way of looking at the world. So on occasion, members who see unfaithfulness as a deal-breaker will get scared and vent about being in a tough spot of staying with a known cheater (spouse) vs. divorcing one and disrupting/hurting kids and finances, just to run back into the same painful situation again by getting involved with another deceptive spouse.

It's a genuine, rational fear. So it gets vent-y.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 3:47 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 3:31 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Next point: The lake example.

I get it that the spouse insisting on the kids' baths was out of line.

But there is such a difference in that example of and being sexually/emotionally faithful.

Neither is good. But in the lake example, nothing was being hidden from the husband. He had a choice. Maybe he would "keep the peace" for the moment in public, but he also had the choice of talking to the wife in private and finding out why she wished him to wake a sleeping child for a bath when the child was on a camping trip. Was she obsessive-compulsive about bathing and germs? Was she just being mean? If so, why was she being mean? Why was that issue so important?

He had THE CHOICE to confront her and work on issues and state his opinion. Because her witchy Mean Girl behavior wasn't hidden. He wasn't being deceived. She didn't do this behind his back and then act like Miss Sunshine to his face. It was direct.

Affairs are deceptive. It's difficult to work on a marital crisis when you're the only one who is unaware that there is a crisis and why. Often, the WS and OP are moving heaven and all of hell to make sure the BS won't find out about it, to the point a spouse doubts his or her own sanity at times.

The lake-bath husband had many options because what his wife was doing was very public, very much in his face, and very confrontational.

He had a choice. So does the spouse of an addict who can stay, leave or work to support a recovering addict.


In affairs, the parts that were hidden and the secret-life, and how great an actor (deceiver) the spouse was becomes the biggest obstacle to recovery and reconciliation. The BS not given a choice to opt out the marriage if a WS state he/she had someone else. Someone else created a false reality for the BS, it all was a shock, and that's a lot to recover from. The toughest part.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 3:48 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 5:31 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

I get it that the spouse insisting on the kids' baths was out of line.

But there is such a difference in that example of and being sexually/emotionally faithful.

There is also a big difference between someone who embezzles several thousand dollars from their employer, a cashier that skims a hundred bucks out of the register, and Bernie Maddoff, and yet they are very much the same.

Neither is good. But in the lake example, nothing was being hidden from the husband. He had a choice. Maybe he would "keep the peace" for the moment in public, but he also had the choice of talking to the wife in private and finding out why she wished him to wake a sleeping child for a bath when the child was on a camping trip. Was she obsessive-compulsive about bathing and germs? Was she just being mean? If so, why was she being mean? Why was that issue so important?

He had THE CHOICE to confront her and work on issues and state his opinion. Because her witchy Mean Girl behavior wasn't hidden. He wasn't being deceived. She didn't do this behind his back and then act like Miss Sunshine to his face. It was direct.


Depends on how you read this story, and where you see the unfaithfulness.
Every time hubby got up it was "are you going to take them?" along with litte digs. Made everyone uncomfortable. Finally he got up, took the boys to the shower where you could hear them screaming because a pterodactyl or some other large flying thing was buzzing them brought them back silently putting them next to her grabbed a beer and went and sat in his boat.

"Fine, go pout, such a fucking child".


Was the unfaithfulness in the OCD obsession about the bath? Was it in being an impatient bitch about it with constant nagging and the "little digs"? Or was it in the public comments after he left to go sit in the boat? I see people having different ways of handling conflicts, some more respectful than others, but usually with the goal of resolving them. Announcing that your spouse has left to go pout and is such a fucking child, well it's really difficult to put a positive spin on that one.

I get the idea of discussing issues here. I get the idea of venting even if I don't agree about the supposed benefits. SI is anonymous, and it is not much different from putting such things in a journal, or just screaming about them in the shower when you are alone, at least as far as the marriage goes, and it does offer the possibility of constructive feedback. (BTW, if you do keep a journal for all the vents, either do it with a password protected file, or make sure it gets burned before you die, you don't want to have loved ones see those thoughts, or remember you for them. Just trust me on that.)

The thing is, marriage is a team sport. Sure it offers opportunity for individual achievements, but you win or lose as a team. If you are trying to look like the MVP at the expense of the team, you probably deserve to be traded.

I think it is reasonable to expect a spouse to watch your back, not stab you in it, whichever implement they may choose.

The lake-bath husband had many options because what his wife was doing was very public, very much in his face, and very confrontational.
I'm trying to imagine his alternatives, and not picturing positive outcomes for any of those scenarios, though the police are called for a few of them.

ETA:
I believe that people who simply mention an issue they are struggling with and stick to the facts generally get a more positive supportive reaction, and more respect, than those who rely on denigrating the person they have an issue with.
I know some people who are highly opinionated and will launch into a screaming rant where everyone who disagrees with them is either evil or stupid or both, and if disagreed with don't want to talk about it anymore. I find that they always end up making a very powerful argument... for the other side.

[This message edited by aesir at 5:47 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 5:35 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Heavy Sigh,

People posting here about their spouses don't always do this in their real lives, and some not at all.

But this is real life. If my husband was denigrating me on this forum it would be no less hurtful to me than it would be if he was doing it somewhere else like the bar, his work or with his family.

In fact, the point of coming to SI is to look anew at the history of the marriage and whether or not reconciliation would be a wise idea or a foolish one. Some of this requires venting, explanation, listing pros and cons, writing about faults that may turn out to be typical Mars vs. Venus stuff when comparing to others,

I am only speaking for myself. This forum HAS helped me a lot. I have been able to find out my feelings are not unique, my fWHs behavior was not unique, his TT was not unique, the hurt I felt to TT was not unique, I have got all this help (and much much more) without ever having had to feel the need to denigrate him though. I guess I just don’t know why it’s not possible to get all the help we BSs need without having to belittle our WH, or WHs in general, in the process.

People should be able to vent a little here -

I agree, and I am not saying I have never vented, I have. But I have never belittled my husband. I don’t see venting as being synonymous with hateful/denigrating/belittling.

or seek opinions about a spouse's behavior or choices - in this public and (hopefully, forever) anonymous board, so it's not disloyal since no one outside the board should know who is being discussed.

If being belittled is done in an anonymous (internet) manner, does that then make it ok? Does the anonymity of the internet remove the pain of belittling words? In my book it doesn’t.

Just say, for the purposes of this discussion that there was a pro-affair forum where unfaithful husbands could go to and say for all the world to read how shit and boring their wives were in bed, how their wives spent too much time on the kids and not enough on their husbands, how their wives didn’t make enough effort to “look nice” for their husbands, how fucked up in general their wives were, how entitled they were to have affairs since their wives were such crap, would that be less hurtful to the wives being spoken about simply because it was anonymous? For me it wouldn’t. It would tear me to pieces and I would find it disloyal in the extreme. I don’t care how anonymous it is, if my husband belittles me on an internet forum or in bar or at his work, it’s still disloyal and belittling to me, and it WOULD hurt.

Objective professional counseling is not always available to all.

That’s true, but holding our heads high and not choosing the path of belittling another is an option available to all. And yes I know our WHs belittled/betrayed us by having an affair, but I still maintain 2 wrongs never make a right.

[This message edited by AnneOther at 5:52 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Bottom line:

The Lakeside husband can tell his wife her behavior is out of line, that they need counseling, or he can decide if it's a deal-breaker. He has a CHOICE. Either way, the problem if confronted can be stopped, fixed or marriage ended. No dragging out the pain. At least her behavior, however despicable, is upfront and not hidden.

But you didn't hear about that other lakeside husband. He is being treated respectfully to his face by his wife. But his wife says she would like a nice walk to gather her thoughts, and could he watch the kids for a while? He agrees. Then his wife walks into the woods, meets the couple's male friend who had told his wife he's going fishing alone - and they continue their affair behind their spouses' backs. Deception. A couple of other people at the lake have noticed the coincidences and either are alarmed or smirk a bit, and keep watching and whispering about it. Then after the weekend, they all go back to their daily lives and maybe some tell others in the social group of what they suspect, and the next thing you know - everybody in the world is watching the illicit lovers who think that nobody else knows their little secret.

The cheating spouses are even praising their betrayed spouses to their faces, and in public in front of others, as a way to divert attention to make anyone who had suspicions think maybe they had the wrong idea, their spidey senses off.

I think if you asked every BS if they would rather have had a spouse be upfront about unhappiness even to the point of being like the bullying lakeside wife - they would have taken any day over scenario No. 2, in which the humiliation is longer, deeper and carried out over a longer time including sexual infidelity with the insult. There is such an element of being humiliated and feeling like a fool over a long, long period of time and not just an hour at a lake. Being kind to your spouse and helping with the dishes, child care and yard work while having an affair does not "make up for it" or justify it or make it all less bad.

Also - there are sites where cheaters denigrate their BS'es but use no names and I doubt their BS'es know.

I don't think given a choice of spouse who cheats or one who talks bad about them on an anonymous website where names are not used that anyone would choose the cheating as the lesser of the two evils. Just one of a package, usually.

Sometimes the being nice to the spouse while being deceptive is even worse. Ask the BS who try to reconcile without having a "marker" to know when the marriage is bad, because the WS was always such a nice person and behavior in marriage never changed in or out of an affair. There is just no way to ever tell if the marriage is better or worse. Easier to reconcile when the WS became difficult to deal with during the affair because you at least believe you could tell if it was happening again, by behavior, or see a change in their during recovery that indicates a change of heart and affair was out of character.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 9:34 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

HeavySigh,

Also - there are sites where cheaters denigrate their BS'es but use no names and I doubt their BS'es know.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. My question wasn’t as much

“do websites exist where wayward partners denigrate their spouses”,
(I know there are websites out there for any number of weird and wonderful things)

my question was more,

“is it acceptable to belittle our partners on forums because there is some degree on anonymity on the internet. Does it hurt the one being belittled less because it has a degree of anonymity, does a degree of anonymity make belittling in a marriage more acceptable”?


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

AnneOther


Again though, my comments aren’t aimed at people in the direct aftermath of their JFO days. Although I found this forum after I had JFO, I didn’t register or post for a good 6 months, but I do understand that on finding out initially we are nowhere near rational in our thought process (well many of us, that is) and I can understand the “lashing out” that goes on in that period, I just don’t understand THAT level of lashing out for THAT (long) length of time. It just doesn’t strike me as healthy or productive to either party.

We agree then. There is comparing WS behaviors and there is lashing out.

I totally agree that lashing out on an anonymous forum for a BS who has JFO or had TT is probably healthier for a M than the BS lashing out at the WS.

But ABSOLUTELY. At some time the vitriol needs to stop or there can't be M. I do not understand

I do think you are incorrect in thinking this forum is not anonymous. I think many BS and WS are very careful with their profiles and posts to make sure that no one IRL could recognize them or their spouse. The anonymity of this site is probably the primary benefit to people like me.

I knew if I wanted to R with my WH that I could not run around telling people what he did. Their opinion of him would forever be tainted. And probably their opinion of me for taking him back. Who would want to struggle to R while simultaneously having everyone they know telling you to "throw him out"?

Here I can openly discuss the issues and work through them with others who have been on both sides of the equation.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 916 | Registered: Jun 2012
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

I disagree on the camping story.

Faithfulness in a relationship means being steadfast to it. That means not transfering loyalty to another person.

Being faithful to a relationship does not guarantee it is a good one.

The bath dictator was being abusive, but unless she told her husband to go shower the kids so she could have sex with her boyfriend, she was still faithful.

She was not engaged in a relationship with someone else. Nor had she announced that she was leaving the relationship and was no longer intending to be loyal to her husband.

It's quite possible that if his boat had caught on fire, she would have been the first person down there pulling him out to save his life.

Uncertainone if you carry your argument to it's logical conclusion than any time I disagree with my husband, I am unfaithful. Does that mean he is unfaithful to me at the same time? Or is one particular spouse always right and thus immune from being declared unfaithful?

Nope, you are omitting the important concept of where the loyalty lies.

Faithfulness is gone when one party leaves the relationship via separation, divorce or affair. In the first two cases, one party has SAID they are no longer faithful and have left the relationship but have not transferred loyalty to someone else yet.

In the case of an affair, loyalty has been transferred and one party has left the relationship, the other party just hasn't been told.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 916 | Registered: Jun 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Heavy sigh, There isn't "here" and "in real life" anymore than affairs exist in an alternate universe. Some that "vent" such hate don't just shut that off. It's impossible no matter how good at compartmentalization you are.

They may not say the things but that rage and poison is there none less and "getting it out" to much support sure as shit aint gonna dispel it.

As you posted, they can leave if they feel that way.

But there is such a difference in that example of and being sexually/emotionally faithful

Really? I don't see it at all. So it was out in the open. My affair was too. In your face suck it you don't like it leave and give me half your shit...or maybe more.

You see it as a difference because of the way you view introducing someone else into the picture. That's understandable. I know how little sex can mean so don't have the same issue with that. The constant tearing down and disrespecting someone is absolute bullshit and yeah, he can leave...again, giving up most of his shit and time with his kids.

That little campsite story was hardly the only time that's happened. She functions in "bitch" mode pretty consistently. Is that consistent in affection and loyalty? I'm thinking not. So if that's the definition of faithful then what would NOT doing that be?

It's not about what's worse. Of course there are degrees. We talk about the slippery slope. Do you feel that just is with people?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Uncertainone if you carry your argument to it's logical conclusion than any time I disagree with my husband, I am unfaithful

Not a logical conclusion at all. How in the world did you get disagreement constitutes disloyalty or not having affection. Hell, even friends argue. Arguing wasn't brought up at all.

You don't think talking to your husband like he's your servant in front of others then insulting him also in front of others is disloyal? Why, because she only fucked him (and not in that good Las Vegas way) and not someone else?

My ex would have pulled me from the burning boat too. He also cheated and treated me like a piñata. I doubt they'd do a Hallmark special about that.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Look, this isn't an either or, which is worse thing. Boundaries aren't just what we accept from others but ourselves as well. If "you" keep moving that boundary where does it stop?

Those cutting comments to "your" spouse and others are disrespectful. That doesn't exist all on its own. It has friends, like detachment, contempt, dislike, resentment, superiority. How can any of that even begin to be discribed as loyal. If that's loyalty fuck that shit.

Why did "you" get married? To share your life with someone who you feel this about? Yeah, I know day to day living can introduce all kinds of neat little foibles that were not disclosed during dating but that goes for both partners.

It seems that those foibles take front and center and the good and wonderful traits that you fell in love with fade into the background. Hell, some people that post on here actually said they were shocked anyone else would be attracted to their WS. Jesus, talk about wanting to cheer for the underdog, except I know how fucked their choices were.

I asked a question. What does faithful mean to "you". There's been amazing responses and very thought provoking ones. I see the range goes from simply not fucking another to some more gray areas where I lurk too.

I do think that starting to unravel that thread leads to a bunch of yarn on the floor with nothing holding anything together anymore.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

Josephine, I agree with most of what you say. (so I will just skip those bit, lol) And I am staying out of the camping story, have too much to wrap my head around already.

But ABSOLUTELY. At some time the vitriol needs to stop or there can't be M.
I do think you are incorrect in thinking this forum is not anonymous. I think many BS and WS are very careful with their profiles and posts to make sure that no one IRL could recognize them or their spouse. The anonymity of this site is probably the primary benefit to people like me.

Re the anonymity of the forum, without getting into the semantics of the word anonymous, IF my husband was belittling me on here, I would feel every bit (if not more) hurt by it than if he was doing it in the local bar, his work or with his family. At least people at his work/bar/family know me and would (hopefully) realize his belittling said more about him than it did about me.

The trouble I have with internet belittling is, it is all so one sided, too one-sided probably – and plus, I guess I just hate belittling – period. So I don’t think it matters at all even if agree that this forum is 100% anonymous, being belittled on here by my husband would still be real hurt. I would feel really betrayed. And I would count him as being very disloyal to me.

I don’t mind my husband disagreeing with me, heck I don’t mind if that disagreement is even vehement. I do mind however if he does that disagreeing in a public manner like on a forum like this, especially when it regards personal matters about me, my personality, my mental state, my (perceived) shortcomings in our relationship. That’s not just dirty laundry, that’s dirty knickers, dirty bras, dirty spanx and dirty tights and they definitely don’t get aired with every Tom Dick and Harry looking on, and listening in. But I would be fine with him discussing very personal things about me in private with his trusted friends (or obviously his IC).

I liked the way Aesir described it at the bottom of page 4

As far as the whole disrespectful venting thing goes, I know that in my case it was not who my wife was saying such horrible things to, […….] It was that she could say such horrible things to someone in the first place, and not stand up for me when others decided to join in on the bashing.

That speaks so much to me. Loyalty is not belittling those we love, and loyalty is defending those we love against outside attack too. Yes my husband was unfaithful to me, but that does not give me carte blanche to belittle him, even if the place where the belittling goes down (a forum like this) is anonymous.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

I think if you asked every BS if they would rather have had a spouse be upfront about unhappiness even to the point of being like the bullying lakeside wife - they would have taken any day over scenario No. 2, in which the humiliation is longer, deeper and carried out over a longer time including sexual infidelity with the insult.

This sounds like a lose-lose set of choices. I think people would rather not have to lose either way. Isn't that the point? To get healthy and to treat our Ms with the respect that neither of these are the choices? And yet some, many marriages lose both ways.

Sure the husband could have named his grievance with her. But how does he manage to address the WAY she addressed him? The content and conversation might have been different if her tone was different. Her tone itself (from what I can read) communicated that she lacked respect for him and would talk down to him. How does he bring that up? Sure, he could and hopefully will in order to stand up for his boundaries, but in any case, that's on her that she's treating him that way. Not fair to say it's all his fault if he doesn't make her change her tone. He could enforce his boundaries by doing a 180 on her to protect himself and prepare to separate, or if he doesn't see it changing divorce her, or try very hard to get them into MC or read the self-help books... This sounds familiar. Where is the option about her not talking down to him to begin with?

If either of them have an affair (and it could happen either way, depending on whoever decides to actually cross the line and do it), where was the option about neither of them having an affair to begin with? Where was the option of leaving, or of MC, of self-help books, of IC, of talking about it?

While the problems might not be the same, the ways of coping with them just might be... Either healthy or unhealthy.

What disrespectful judgments and affairs (independent behavior in Dr. Harley's words) have in common is that they're not treating the M like a team. The whole point of marriage IS to be a team.

edited for punctuation and pronoun confusion.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:29 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

but I still maintain 2 wrongs never make a right.
And how do you get to decide what is wrong? How do you get to decide
THAT level of lashing out for THAT (long) length of time.
AnneOther, you get to decide that for yourself. You don't get to decide that for anyone else here.

I feel it is wrong of you to try to convince "us" that need to vent and lash out and say crappy things about our WS's that we are somehow less than someone else who doesn't have a need to do that. And, no those aren't the words you used, it is just the overall "tone" that I get from your posts.

As I stated earlier, yes if you are wallowing in the anger and lashing out, that isn't healthy. I find the BS's that are still doing that long, long after d-day have an unremorseful WS. Or, a BS that is in reconciliation and triggered. Or suffering from PISD/PTSD.

I am not one to denigrate my FWH here or IRL. I am not saying I haven't, I have here, not IRL. If my FWH read what I wrote, he would be hurt. But, and this is what is so awesome about FWH NOW, he would understand whatever I said came from a place of pain. The pain he caused me. He probably wouldn't say "I deserve it!" but what he would say is "I understand, and I am sorry!" He is a good husband. He would appreciate the fact that I share it here anonymously and don't beat him over the head with it.

eta: to remove a quote that shouldn't have been there

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:27 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, March 21st (Thursday)

SisterM, of course I don’t get to make decisions for others, that’s a given. But this post is specifically asking us to define faithfulness. For me that definition goes far deeper than just not sleeping with another man. Loyalty is a big part of it too. A part of being loyal is not belittling my husband on internet forums (or anywhere for that matter). So if my husband took part in just a fraction of the belittling I see regularly on this site, I would consider him unfaithful and disloyal to me. That is not to say that I expect everyone else to think the same. I (we) were posed a question on this thread. I gave MY answer to that question. Being loyal to my husband (and myself) demands more of me than just staying out of another man’s bed.

I am not trying to say you or anyone shouldn’t be able to vent, or lash out or say crappy things, vent and lash out as much as your heart desires. I just think that what some people call “venting/lashing out/saying crappy but understandable things”, might be my “being disrespectful and disloyal to a spouse”. And I am not referring to you or any one poster specifically, I just read many posts in here that make my “loyalty / faithful” radar go off, and they are often from BSs speaking of their WSs.

And just for the record, I am not a mission to convince anyone of anything. I am just sharing my thoughts. If you agree with my train of thought, fine, if you disagree, equally fine.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

The whole point of marriage IS to be a team
.

Exactly

If you really get into the semantics of it. Faith is a belief in something intangible. A spouse is tangible. The bond, the unity, is what is intangible. The faithfulness and fidelity is not technically to the spouse but to the bond. An allegence, adherance, and loyalty to the bond.

Anything that detracts from the strength of the unity is infidelity or unfaithfullness.

When it comes to talking to others about your spouse it would come down to motivation. If my motivation is to make me look better than my spouse it is infidelity. If my motivation is to gain pity from the listening party then it is infidelity. If my motivation is to vent it is infidelity because it is still about me.

If am seeking advice to strengthen the unity it is fidelity. If I am looking for an independent insight into my part it is fidelity.

All thoughts words and actions should be motivated by ways of strengthening the unity, strengthening the bond.

The I's the Me's and the You's should take a back seat to the We's and the Us'. What is good for the group is usually good for the individual. Its not about who is right or who is wrong but what is best for the family, the bond, the unity.


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2647 | Registered: Aug 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

My point is you specifically said they are wrong for doing this. You didn't say in your opinion, you feel, you just said "wrong". You are defining what is wrong for them.

You can define what faithful and loyalty means to you without saying others are wrong. In essence, I feel, you are saying that if you vent, lash out, denigrate your WS here at SI anonymously, you are not being loyal and faithful because it is "wrong" to do that.

I understand you are not speaking of me specifially. There are posters here ( very, very few, I can only think of one right now) that says awful things about their very remorseful WS. Always. Every. Single. Post.

The affair was a dealbreaker for the BS. The BS just won't leave or divorce. Would rather suffer in BS's awful feelings instead of doing something, anything to change BS's situation. It has been almost 3 years. I feel this kind of BS is more rare here.

I can hardly read the threads anymore because I can't bear to hear the awful things said about WS and to hear the BS's pain and than refuses to do anything to change themself. I can understand how one might feel this is "wrong".

I am not talking of BS's that are trying to get their ducks in a row here either, that is a different sitch all together.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

Sister M, I get the same right to say something is wrong as you get when you said something was unhealthy. Both words we both used, both are just our opinions, neither os us trying to convince ever forum member that our opinions are the only ones allowed. You get to view behavior X is an unhealthy, I get to view behavior Y as wrong. Basically it boils down to…. either we add a long 5 line signature/disclaimer to the end of every one of our posts stating that our opinions are just that, that we accept that we have no right to judge etc etc or we just assume that the people reading them use a modicum of common sense while doing so. I might have used the word wrong, but I also qualified that more than enough to get my opinion over properly and fully. I am here to discuss a topic, not the use of one specific word. If we all start pulling each other up on the use of one specific word, the topic at hand gets lost and the convo moves on to pure semantics.

Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

They may not say the things but that rage and poison is there none less and "getting it out" to much support sure as shit aint gonna dispel it.

I'm not sure that I agree with that statement 100%. I agree that there are people on this site who seem unable to move past the hurt and deal with their anger in a constructive manner. They're caught in a loop of anger and rage. But I know that in my case, when I'm feeling particularly angry or hateful, it is helpful to come to this site, spew out some of that rage, and then I'm able to discuss it with my WH in a manner that is calmer and more respectful. If I didn't have a place to get the anger out it would most likely come out at him, and that's not helping anyone.

If my FWH read what I wrote, he would be hurt. But, and this is what is so awesome about FWH NOW, he would understand whatever I said came from a place of pain. The pain he caused me. He probably wouldn't say "I deserve it!" but what he would say is "I understand, and I am sorry!"

I agree with SisterM on this. IRL, my WH and I haven't told anyone what is going on other than our MC. TBH, we would never have a successful R if I told people about what he did. I feel like I am respecting him and protecting him by using this site to get out the anger and pain. I have asked my WH if it bothers him that I come to this site to vent, and he has told me he has no problem with it. In this opinion it is better for me to get it out here than have it impacting our daily lives in a negative way. I read the article about venting, but I from what I understood, the article was about people venting about their own failings or shortcomings, and is not necessarily applicable to the situations we find here.

As for the lakeside story, yes that woman was out of line. It is never okay to belittle your spouse in front of other people, especially IRL. And it sounds like it is an ongoing problem, not a one time deviation from the norm.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

I feel this kind of BS is more rare here

I agree. I think so too.

Adultery used to be defined as sex with another that was not your spouse without your spouses knowledge and consent.

That now has been broadened to include Internet, talking to another of the opposite sex (or in some cases same sex) where the other spouse is unaware and wouldn't like it, porn. All those I agree with, btw. The betrayal and pain is real and destructive. The thought processes are toxic and unhealthy.

Most here agree that all of the above is "wrong" without argument.

So if that definition of "infidelity" has been reworked why is looking at other behaviors that use very similar thought processes, if not the very same ones, greeted with some real push back?

Is it so hard for some to see how those choices and actions can't create some of the same pain and trauma?

I've read here so often of how some BS's hurt thinking of others laughing at them knowing what their spouse was doing. I have to say, in my experience, I've seen very little laughter but much disgust at what pigs (both men and women) their spouses are being.

I remember one laughing with the department about her husbands shit stained underwear and how he apparently needs a power point on how to use toilet paper. At the company picnic that's pretty much the thought I had going as he was sitting across from us. I was questioning my sanity when my co-worker leaned over and whispered to me, "note to self, don't sit on that bench" and laughed. Actually I did too because, well that was just funny shit right there, but can you imagine if he knew we knew that little fun fact?

Talking about this in no way lessens, mitigates, excuses, the pain BS's feel from their spouses horrific destructive choices. It wasn't proposed as an offset. Just something to think about and either do a little audit or dismiss as an extreme view. It also wasn't meant as a BS/WS thing. I'm quite certain many BS's have endured this kind of shit on top of the cheating too. That's why I posted in wayward asking if anyone noticed their choices may have started just this way.

Silverhopes, great posts!!!


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

Never saw this thread as being about SI, what people post, or if an affair is better or worse than a nagging spouse with a shopping/gambling/drug addiction.

This is a thread about what it means to be faithful, respect your marriage and your spouse, all that subtle stuff where we all stumble every day (or week or whatever, I suppose some people might be better at it, or just sleep a lot).

Fucking someone else seems like a pretty big deal to have to analyze after it has blown up your marriage. Nobody has said these other examples are equivalent, but they are things that involve the same thought process. If people figure these things out after an affair, it gives a pretty good map to finding the answers for the affair. If they figure this shit out before, probably a pretty good chance there wont be an affair.

To me, this thread is deeply philosophical, cutting way beyond the seven layers of why in the infidelity postmortem. I see it as raising the issue of the fundamental definitions that we build everything else upon. If we can see the similarities in thought behind unrelated behaviors, we are better equipped to understand the really bad ones. If we are betrayed, then seeing similar things in ourself that manifested differently may make it easier to forgive. If we are starting something new, then maybe if we understand the core concepts we won't screw up again, either in what we do, or what we tolerate.

I am not talking of BS's that are trying to get their ducks in a row here either, that is a different sitch all together.
I would actually consider getting ones ducks in a row to be disloyal, but by that point the relationship is already so far gone that one should be getting their ducks in a row.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

we just assume that the people reading them use a modicum of common sense while doing so.
One would hope so, right? Maybe that is what a poster who makes a massively generalized statement who doesn't add the caveat, in general assumes?

I don't feel the words wrong and unhealthy are interchangeable most of the time.

Do we have a semantics thing going on here? I can agree with you on that, Anne.

As for the rest, agree to disagree? I agree, that is best.

UO, as always a thought provoking post. And, as always, holding everyone's feet to the fire. Ouch!

Lots of great posts from all the members, much to think about.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

I would actually consider getting ones ducks in a row to be disloyal, but by that point the relationship is already so far gone that one should be getting their ducks in a row.
Exactly, aesir, totally agree. That is why that is a totally different situation.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

Food for thought, I guess - if we consider an online affair with a partner the WS has never met in person to be just as damaging and "real" as an IRL affair, then tearing your partner down anonymously online pretty much has to be considered equivalent to doing it IRL. Am I off-base in thinking this?

UO that example you used . . . it's really eye-opening how this wife robbed her husband of his dignity without his knowledge. It IS disrespectful, wow.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 2:01 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6835 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

One would hope so, right? Maybe that is what a poster who makes a massively generalized statement who doesn't add the caveat, in general assumes?

SisterM, ok, lol, that would cover some of the sweeping generalizations, except for the ones where BSs say things like “all waywards do xyz – all waywards say xyz – all waywards think xyz”. But I do get your meaning, a LOT of generalizations can be covered by applying a little bit of common sense, they’re just not the ones I object to though.

And then you have posts like one that was mentioned earlier in this thread by UO.

Hell, some people that post on here actually said they were shocked anyone else would be attracted to their WS. Jesus, talk about wanting to cheer for the underdog, except I know how fucked their choices were.

A comment like that, no amount of common sense or reading between the lines can make me see that as anything but belittling and disloyal. And I see a lot of comments along these lines. Does anyone see this as even remotely right, or loyal, or healthy? To me that must be the ultimate insult ever to give to a wayward spouse. To be shocked that anyone would even give them a second glance. It’s such a horrible thing to say. Mind you, if I was the BS saying it, I would be worried about my own choices too if I rated my husband SO lowly.

[This message edited by AnneOther at 2:19 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
AnneOther
Member
Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

Jana,

Food for thought, I guess - if we consider an online affair with a partner the WS has never met in person to be just as damaging and "real" as an IRL affair, then tearing your partner down anonymously online pretty much has to be considered equivalent to doing it IRL. Am I off-base in thinking this?

That is spot on, a very good way to look at it. There are very many parallels between some of the belittling posts I read in here and those “secrets of the marriage” shared between two partners in an online emotional affair. I guess the only difference is the EA is between two people only, and the other is more public. I don’t see how one can be put down out of hand, yet the other seen as just healthy venting.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 2:21 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

AnneOther...

We all get it...you've made your point 12 times on this thread, it's time to move on...please.


[This message edited by Deeply Scared at 2:23 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198460 | Registered: May 2002
devotedfool68
Member
Member # 38047
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

I always think there are more vows than fidelity. If you have vowed to love, honor, respect... Well, many people break those vows too easily... even before DDay

^^^^^^^^^

Unexpected song - GREAT POINT, Very well stated!!

UO, as usual great thought, you always get me thinking.

Love your posts keep up the good work.

devoted


BH 46
WW 38 (Lost94)
DS 17
DS 15
AP - friend of a friend of WW - complete stranger, predatory KISA

many DDays, primary 7/4/2012 and 8/10/2012
timeline of the highlights 11/1/2013

Holding on to hope.


Posts: 244 | Registered: Jan 2013
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

This may or may not be a t/j but it just comes to mind...

Anyone heard of kotodama? The belief that words have power in themselves? There was a study one of my teachers told us about once... People said different words to water. They said everything from "thank you" to "love" to "stupid" and "hate". The kinder and more loving words corresponded to the water forming beautiful crystals. The hurtful words made the water's crystals appear distorted.

What if the more we think hateful thoughts toward someone, the more it changes who we are as a person? Sort of like "you are what you eat", except it would be "you are how you speak"?

This is on my mind a lot right now because there's a certain person in my life whom I'm very angry toward. I feel it corrupting me. I know that I need to get away from her and be safe again. Also I know I need to detox from all of the negativity of how I've been thinking about her. The way I start is to try not to give her too many thoughts (I have a long way to go). That gives her power and also makes me feel weaker and more hurt, keeps the abuse alive. There are ways to protect myself... I hear laughter is supposed to help protect against infections... Boundaries are good too, mental ones as well as physical ones...

OK end t/j

So if that definition of "infidelity" has been reworked why is looking at other behaviors that use very similar thought processes, if not the very same ones, greeted with some real push back?

This. Didn't a lot of infidelity begin by the unfaithful partner seeing the other one as unequal - seeing the BS as not deserving his/her fidelity, or perhaps seeing the BS on a pedestal and feeling low enough that "who gives if I cheat...", or in a lot of cases not even registering the BS at all... Not seeing the partner or the M as equal or teamwork... And when the bashing begins, isn't the spouse communicating that they don't see their partner as equal, as lower in fact, not respected, not part of the team, or that it's OK to step outside of the team to put down the teammate? So much in common...

Silverhopes, great posts!!!

Thank you UO. You inspire me so much.

I see it as raising the issue of the fundamental definitions that we build everything else upon.

This. Exploring all kinds of different roots is necessary for the big picture. Why? In a quest to become a healthier person...

I don't feel the words wrong and unhealthy are interchangeable most of the time.

This is a concept I've been digging on a lot lately. If anyone has any insights, let me know! I've been trying to identify with 'healthy' because it seems so... concrete. Healthy is what promotes well-being, without compromising it or anyone else's. Healthy to me means, "do no harm." (And there's a difference between hurt and harm too, imo). Or it means, "your very best." Gah, not quite wording it right. Feels like there's so much more to learn here.

Also it seems like 'healthy' - or rather, 'unhealthy' - is a common point on where people make hurtful choices - some intentional, some not intentional, or some so well learned and repeated that they feel like a habit... It roots in being unhealthy. Not necessarily always malicious, nor necessarily clueless - each person's story might have different motivations or whys. Always unhealthy though, that's always a HOW. Worth exploring as to WHERE the unhealthiness is inside of someone and how to change it to healthy. (Seriously I think I annoy people by using that word so much; I use it almost as much as I use "boundaries". Holy overexcitement, Batman )

imo 'wrong' seems more to explore differences in morals. For one person, watching Family Guy might be wrong, for another person it isn't, for different moral reasons, and for some folks that might change based on the episode. Another thing is in arguments it seems like 'right' vs 'wrong' tends to cause more issues because of the ego getting involved. Maybe we're having a discussion at home. If one person starts to feel criticized, they might start trying to find some way of being 'right' in the argument, and somewhere in there it becomes more about hurt feelings than about the points within the argument - or rather, with feelings on the line, trying to 'win'. Still working on this one personally...

Or, in the case of that couple at the lake, maybe the wife felt 'right' in making sure that the kids were clean, maybe even felt like she was looking out for their health in doing it... but the way she communicated that to her husband, through put-downs and undermining his best efforts, well, from his standpoint he'd probably consider that wrong. More appropriately, attacking and hurting him wasn't healthy for their marriage because it was threatening their teamwork. It was making the issue about her lack of respect for him rather than about the kids' cleanliness.

Sorry, that turned into a ramble! Take what you need, disregard the rest of the gibberish.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

"you are how you speak"

Wow!!!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6102 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

I might not have worded that very well. What I mean is, have you ever experienced thinking a lot of curse words, and then noticed that your thoughts and body become tenser, and how that translates to how you act - even something accidental as bumping into more things... I wonder, if thinking curse words or saying angry things over a long period of time will start to impact who we are, so that we gradually become angrier people. I mean "how" we speak as in, if we say things in anger as opposed to compassion. I'm sorry if I didn't word that well...


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

I meant... That's an amazing insight! It explains everything to me!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6102 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 8:21 PM, March 21st (Thursday)

Oh I'm glad it helped!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
lost_in_toronto
Member
Member # 25395
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, March 22nd (Friday)

This was such a thought provoking thread, and I've been thinking about it for so long that I'm probably coming to it too late. Regardless -

This is something that I have personally been very aware of with my WS since dday. Not in how I speak about him to others, but how I speak to him ALL THE TIME. I have a tendency to become curt and sarcastic when I am feeling hurt or worried or stressed...not a great trait. And this created a lot of distance between my WS and I in the years leading up to the affair. Since the affair, with introspection and MC, I have really worked on owning this myself and changing how I talk to my WS. I try to always speak with the intention of being respectful and caring.

This is all in keeping with my own belief that love is a choice that we make over and over again. What silverhopes wrote is also part of this for me. You are how you speak, yes - but also, I believe we are our intentions as well. I try to hold the intention to love and honour my WS at all times. Even when I am not feeling particularly loving. The choice of acting loving towards him can help me feel more loving.

All that to say, I agree with most of what UO wrote in the original post. I do think the break between faithfulness and unfaithfulness begins within ourselves, with the way we treat our partner and the way we treat our relationship.

I also agree that venting ugly crap about our partners is an act of betrayal and disloyalty. But I do think there is a difference between talking over a relationship issue and merely venting. When my WS had his affair, I told my sister and my best friend. I needed their support. I needed them to hear my pain. I cried and sobbed on their shoulder. I did not, however, talk shit about my WS. I never called him names or what have you - if I had, it wouldn't have been consistent with my desire to reconcile.

So was talking about his affair with others disloyal? Maybe in the eyes of some. The important thing here is - not in the eyes of my WS. He knew I talked to them, he knew I needed to.

Privacy is the bubble the two of you wrap around the marriage where certain topics of off limits to other's. They're kept between the two of you.

I guess I don't actually disagree with you on this one, uncertainone. I just think that what a couple includes within that bubble may differ from what another couple includes. The same way we have members on this forum who are polygamous and have drawn different physical boundaries in their marriage, I think what is considered private in one marriage might be an open book in others.

There are members on this forum who have never told anyone outside their MC that they experienced infidelity. Me, personally - I have no problem telling someone that I experienced it and reconciled with my WS and came through it ok, in the end. I think those stories are important and so does my WS. So our definition of privacy is just different.

Of course, we do have things that remain in our bubble. I guess I just got the feeling from what you were posting that you had very clear ideas of what belonged in the bubble and what didn't - and I think each couple gets to define that.

[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 9:58 AM, March 22nd (Friday)]


Me: BS/39
Him: WS/37
DDay: August 23, 2009
Together 14 years.
Reconciled.

Posts: 1687 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: not toronto anymore
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, March 22nd (Friday)

My ex would have pulled me from the burning boat too. He also cheated and treated me like a piñata. I doubt they'd do a Hallmark special about that.

Then uncertainone we come from the same perspective. You know what I thought when I read the camping story?

I wondered if the last time the woman took her kids camping the husband screamed at her and berated her for bringing the kids home dirty. I wondered if before this trip he went after her again, letting her know that because he was the god of her universe the kids would be bathed every night and none of her previous pathetic excuses would fly.

I wondered if she was trying to make a point to him in public because if she stood up to him in private he'd punch her. I wondered if she was waiting for him to say they didn't need a bath, so she could make her point with him. I wondered if he bathed them so she couldn't make her point and finally I wondered if he went off to the boat to sulk so she couldn't feel like she finally won one round.

Sorry, but having lived with an abusive partner, I am much more prone to seeing another possible explanation to every story.

Could the bathdictator be the abuser in that relationship? Yes. It is also highly probably that the husband is the abuser and the reason she goes after him in public is the only time she feels safe. Remember, most abusers like to put on a good show in front of other people. They like others to think they are the victim.

There have been a few WS and as many BS on this site whose choice of words/phrases/claims/etc make my skin crawl and make me suspect they are abusers.

Wow. I got off on a tangent. Sorry

Bottomline... your definition of faithful is so large it becomes meaningless. You are disregarding intent and intent is probably the most important factor in faithfulness and fidelity.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 916 | Registered: Jun 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, March 22nd (Friday)

Sorry, but having lived with an abusive partner, I am much more prone to seeing another possible explanation to every story.

Yeah? So did I. Not sure how that's relevant. Since I know both and have stated pretty much her standard operating procedure thought I'd cleared that up.

I've broadened so much to make it meaningless? Interesting. I kind of thought you personalized it so much it did rather the same thing. Little of column a little of column b I suppose (sigh, love Archer)


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, March 22nd (Friday)

I do think the break between faithfulness and unfaithfulness begins within ourselves, with the way we treat our partner and the way we treat our relationship.

I do too. I also think how we treat others is very tied to our view of ourselves.

Our actions do define us. The justifications we use only further the disintegration until we lose who we want to be and become often what we don't respect, like, admire in others.

I know events and people change us. We choose how that change looks, though. We choose every day.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, March 25th (Monday)

Bottomline... your definition of faithful is so large it becomes meaningless.

UC, perhaps the point Josephine is trying to make is that it's becoming less clear in this philosophical discussion as to whether some posters define a BS as "unfaithful" for being hurt and angry and venting it to a WS. That a BS who gets upset or angry when the repercussions of an affair that's ended hit him/her in the face again at a later date will then be called "unfaithful" if getting upset over it.

Continual verbal abuse and bullying is one thing. But a year after the affair and walking into your kids' homeroom to see the OW is the room mom for the next year (didn't happen to me but another poster here) is likely to be another punishment inflicted on the BS from the affair because of the WS's actions and likely that the WS will get another round of emotional upset from the BS. And that BS is not being "unfaithful" to the WS for reacting to it instead of stuffing it up out of fear of being "BS shamed."

And then there's that baffling idea that seeking anonymous help at an anonymous support group is now being called "public," so being here and talking about pain and asking what to do in marriage situation is also called "unfaithful"? I couldn't quite get what that poster meant, either.

If a WS and BS both choose to be here and read each other's posts, it's not a decision I think is wise or healthy, any more than I think it's a good idea to go to a therapist and invite mom or dad to hear a stream-of-conscious venting or emotions about memories of childhood. Some awful stuff is going to come out, and until it's sorted out, best to not listen or read.


Is verbal abuse a bad thing in a marriage? Yes.

But is it being "faithful" or "unfaithful"? In legal terms in a divorce case, faithfulness would apply to an affair or promiscuity outside the relationship.

Verbal abuse and getting on each other's nerves to the extent over nagging a spouse to death about a kid's bath would be called "irreconcilable differences."

Hitting would be called a crime.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 9:48 AM, March 25th (Monday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, March 25th (Monday)

When I read the very first post that UO put up in this thread, it about knocked me on my ass. It had me thinking for three days straight and then I had to go and have a discussion with Hlessons about what I had figured out. I know that some of it was floating around in my head, I just had not yet put it into a neat little box and tied it up with a bow as Hlessons likes to put it.

I think in a way it kind of disappointed me that the big message that was trying to be conveyed here got lost in what ended up being focused on for pages in this thread.

When I started thinking about all the ways you can be unfaithful in a marriage besides infidelity I sat back and examined myself, this is something I often do with threads like this, I examine me to see if something fits.

The more I examined this, the more I didn't like what I was coming up with. I could see where my thoughts and actions inside of my marriage had been wayward long before I did what I did. And this had nothing to do with other men whatsoever. I had actually had really good boundaries were that was concerned.

When I started examining my history in my marriage, I ended up clear back when I was walking down the isle. In my head I was thinking "we aren't going to last five years" and yet I did it anyway. I never trusted Hlessons, not from day one, and that lack of trust allowed me to keep him at arms length, always. It also allowed me to make unilateral decisions in my life. If I kept him at a distance then he really wasn't a part of what I did. Not really, not in any way that truly mattered. I loved him to the best of my ability, but that love was flawed, obviously.

It wasn't so much entitled thinking as some might think as it was keeping myself safe. Unfortunately, Hlessons FOO issues and my FOO issues dovetailed perfectly. We can see that now, and we work hard to stop that. I don't feed into his abandonment issues and he doesn't feed into my very deep mistrust issues.

The bottom line here is, I was unfaithful in my marriage in so many tiny ways and so was my H that didn't involve infidelity that it eroded our base. By the time I did what I did, and Hlessons did what he did, we had to start from scratch. Turns out, that was a good thing for us.

The point of the original message was, in what ways are you being unfaithful in your marriage? Large and small? I know I was shocked to figure out how many ways I had done it and for how long. Thank you UO for helping me once again pull something together and put it away in my box. With a nice little bow.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, March 25th (Monday)

When I read the very first post that UO put up in this thread, it about knocked me on my ass. It had me thinking for three days straight and then I had to go and have a discussion with Hlessons about what I had figured out. I know that some of it was floating around in my head, I just had not yet put it into a neat little box and tied it up with a bow as Hlessons likes to put it.

I think in a way it kind of disappointed me that the big message that was trying to be conveyed here got lost in what ended up being focused on for pages in this thread.

When I started thinking about all the ways you can be unfaithful in a marriage besides infidelity I sat back and examined myself, this is something I often do with threads like this, I examine me to see if something fits.

The more I examined this, the more I didn't like what I was coming up with. I could see where my thoughts and actions inside of my marriage had been wayward long before I did what I did. And this had nothing to do with other men whatsoever. I had actually had really good boundaries were that was concerned.

When I started examining my history in my marriage, I ended up clear back when I was walking down the isle. In my head I was thinking "we aren't going to last five years" and yet I did it anyway. I never trusted Hlessons, not from day one, and that lack of trust allowed me to keep him at arms length, always. It also allowed me to make unilateral decisions in my life. If I kept him at a distance then he really wasn't a part of what I did. Not really, not in any way that truly mattered. I loved him to the best of my ability, but that love was flawed, obviously.

It wasn't so much entitled thinking as some might think as it was keeping myself safe. Unfortunately, Hlessons FOO issues and my FOO issues dovetailed perfectly. We can see that now, and we work hard to stop that. I don't feed into his abandonment issues and he doesn't feed into my very deep mistrust issues.

The bottom line here is, I was unfaithful in my marriage in so many tiny ways and so was my H that didn't involve infidelity that it eroded our base. By the time I did what I did, and Hlessons did what he did, we had to start from scratch. Turns out, that was a good thing for us.

The point of the original message was, in what ways are you being unfaithful in your marriage? Large and small? I know I was shocked to figure out how many ways I had done it and for how long. Thank you UO for helping me once again pull something together and put it away in my box. With a nice little bow.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, March 25th (Monday)

But is it being "faithful" or "unfaithful"? In legal terms in a divorce case, faithfulness would apply to an affair or promiscuity outside the relationship.

Verbal abuse and getting on each other's nerves to the extent over nagging a spouse to death about a kid's bath would be called "irreconcilable differences."

Hitting would be called a crime.


Actually, the affair would be called adultery. I may be wrong, but I don't think faithful actually appears in any legislation regarding marriage or divorce. "Irreconcilable differences" is a nice legal catch all phrase for no particular reasons to cite, but we don't want to be married and can't make it work.

And then there's that baffling idea that seeking anonymous help at an anonymous support group is now being called "public," so being here and talking about pain and asking what to do in marriage situation is also called "unfaithful"? I couldn't quite get what that poster meant, either.

I wouldn't call it so much public, or worry about it humiliating a spouse, but I do think that if a person sees there spouse calling them a fucktardedasshat, even if it is in a private journal or written on the inside of a cigarette pack it can be very damaging. Again, it depends on your perspective, is the issue about who they are saying it to, or what they are saying. I have seen more than a few threads of people being very upset that their spouse privately called them a <redacted>.

If a WS and BS both choose to be here and read each other's posts, it's not a decision I think is wise or healthy, any more than I think it's a good idea to go to a therapist and invite mom or dad to hear a stream-of-conscious venting or emotions about memories of childhood.
That really depends on the couple. Not everyone has the same style of posting, or searches for help in the same ways. I can think of a few couples here who joined together, that I have never seen post violating any of the premises here. Yes, they posted about issues they were having in a factual manner without using derogatory terms for their spouse, and to my knowledge have moved on to happy R's.

If a couple actually lived by the principles of this post, I don't see how an affair could happen in the first place. If an affair happens and the couple begin to live by this principle, my bet is that they will be on the fast side of the recovery timetable.

It really is a very simple concept. Practicing it 24/7 is probably very difficult.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
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