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User Topic: Sex was like a "spiritual experience" and other bullshit.
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, May 24th (Friday)

The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul." My WW conscientiously and deliberately decided to seek out 2 PAs, starting in Jan. on Ashley Madison (AM), a cheaters website. I stormed Normandy via her cell phone email account one month ago after suspicions about an overnight stay with an old female college friend.

It was around midnight, about 12 hours since my WW had last been plundered..And her response when presented with the news that our life as we had once known it was over? "Do you really want to do this now?" I thought, "No dear, you're right. Let me get a good night's sleep then we'll discuss it in the morning, honey." No, not really. It was more like, "Are you crazy you cold fucking bitch?" We did talk all night and have hardly stopped talking since, except to have HB sex, write a NC email, spiral into depression a few times, cry uncontrollably, break NC, and scour IS for answers.

We have come along way in a month and have learned many things from IS. WS is coming out of the fog, feeling remorse, and my gut feeling is that she is now finally telling me the whole truth (I'll never know for sure). But there are a few things that I am struggling with and request the words of experience and kindred pain.

The facts bear out that the APs were better than me in many ways. This is not a pity party. I know that as people, they are WHs and scumbags that would clean rugs by swinging cats at them. However, one was rich, younger, and had some fleeting fame. The other was the type of artist my WW admires, a prolific writer (at least in emails designed to pluck her from my loving grasp), and owner of a company similar to mine - yet far more interesting (especially when you hear WW describe it..I almost came just listening to her excitement).

And frankly, I've never felt that WW was very interested in much that I had to say, previous to d-day. We've talked at length of her constant distractions and lack of response when I'm speaking, as well as her inability to tell me what she wants and my inability to take criticism.

Then, there is the sex that God somehow took time from his busy schedule to personally bestow upon my WW, using the OM as His "worthy" proxy. I question whether "in the fog" she could tell God from Satan, but that is off topic. As the fog has begun to ascend WW has realized much of her experience was a self-created delusion.

However, we have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life. WW somewhat subconsciously used the same techniques on me and even aside from the usual HB effect, the sex was the most powerful I'd ever experienced.

OM apparently also thrust a little more while getting head (which is a magical image that is now imprinted my brain like an malapropos tattoo from a nebulous drunken evening) and now my WW is suddenly able to give better BJs (if BJ is not in the Acronym list it means BLOW JOB, for the uninformed).

The only person, that I know of, that WW spoke of her A to was her sister. She also bad-mouthed me to her as well as her APs, breaking the prime directive of our relationship. I've always felt that her sister was my sister and now I feel she betrayed me too, by not revealing the A to me while it was yet a green sprout. Her silence allowed the tree to grow and bear the fruit of temptation (now do you get my handle, AdamsApple?). And my WW vigorously devoured the fruit, surprisingly without gagging, mind you.

I now have a swarming murder of questions.

How do I deal with the fact that as one person, I can't be everything to the one I love?

How do I justify keeping WS from having what makes her happy, if I love her..even if that is another person?

How do I deal with the fact that my love and respect for her have kept me from treating her like the slut she sometimes wants to be. How can I change so that my concern for her needs and my love for her doesn't prevent me from being a better lover?

How do I reconcile the fact that OM was just a better lover and that our sex life can be better by using what he "taught" her?

How do I deal with the feeling that this experience will make me a far better H, yet I don't feel that she should be rewarded for betraying me. Does she deserve a better husband and marriage?

How do I accept that her A has improved our communication and enabled us to reveal our frailties?

How do I accept the fact that she submitted to OM more emotionally and physically during sex than she ever has with me and the reward was far greater than it has been with me?

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

How do I not think of him every time she goes a little deeper than she was previously willing or able; or when we do something that THEY did?

I don't know whether I want to punch OM for taking my WW or thank him for the the great sex tips. That is difficult to bear.

Should her APs be outed so their BSs can know the truth? There were possibly two people that could have let me know about the As before final consummation and neither spoke up. I would have wanted to know before severe and irreversible damage was done.

Should I hold her sister accountable? I understand her view being tainted by my WW. But, she knew me. I thought she was family and she turned on me without even talking to me.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 7:20 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, May 24th (Friday)

The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul."

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but mine said the exact some words. Fucking verbatim. The sex with the AP was illicit, forbidden. Yet another parallel to your user name. I would assume that it would be pretty amazing under those circumstances.

My wife left for the OM so our situations are a bit different but I'll do my best to answer.

How do I deal with the fact that as one person, I can't be everything to the one I love?

I think you have to recognize that you can't ever be everything for anybody and that relationships with that sort of requirement are toxic and unhealthy. Our relationships should supplement our happiness and our wholeness as people, not define or depend on them.

How do I justify keeping WS from having what makes her happy, if I love her..even if that is another person?

You don't have that kind of power. She's a fully functioning human being who is fully capable of making her own choices, whether they be good or bad. If she wants to go for the AP, frankly there is nothing you can do to stop her. You need to create and enforce healthy boundaries to help you in this event, of course.

How do I deal with the fact that my love and respect for her have kept me from treating her like the slut she sometimes wants to be. How can I change so that my concern for her needs and my love for her doesn't prevent me from being a better lover?

That sounds like her issue, not yours. She needs some serious therapy.

How do I reconcile the fact that OM was just a better lover and that our sex life can be better by using what he "taught" her?

I have no fucking idea. I don't think I would have been able to deal with this.

How do I deal with the feeling that this experience will make me a far better H, yet I don't feel that she should be rewarded for betraying me. Does she deserve a better husband and marriage?

Once again, I have no idea. I suspect that's just something you're going to have to let go at some point if you're going to stay married to her. (by the way, there is a lot of discussion about this topic in the Betrayed Men thread down in I Can Relate.)

How do I accept that her A has improved our communication and enabled us to reveal our frailties?

I don't know but this also seems like something you're going to have to accept if you're going to stay married.

How do I accept the fact that she submitted to OM more emotionally and physically during sex more than she ever has with me and the reward was far greater than it has been with me?

I don't think I would have been able to deal with that. No answer for you there, other than the fact that she is very likely full of shit.

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

Don't know. Maybe it's easier in the long run if they leave.

How do I not think of him every time she goes a little deeper than she was previously willing or able; or when we do something that THEY did?

Once again, I don't think I could have handled this.

I don't know whether I want to punch OM for taking my WW or thank him for the the great sex tips. That is a difficult to bear.

He's not worth thinking about. Try thinking about something that has some sort of actual value instead, like the way you felt after taking your morning shit. He has less value as a human being than what you flushed when you were done.

Should her APs be outed so their BSs can know the truth?

Absolutely. They need to know what they are married to. They deserve the truth just as much as you did. Don't tell your wife what you're going to do (OK, so she'll probably know since she posts here but don't tell her when or how.)

There were possibly two people that could have let me know about the As before final consummation and neither spoke up. I would have wanted to know before severe and possible irreversible damage was done.

I'm pretty disgusted with my ex's enablers. I wouldn't wish this on anybody but if they could understand even a glimmer of the pain caused by this, they might have been a bit more proactive.

Should I hold her sister accountable? I understand her view being tainted by my WW. But, she knew me. I thought she was family and she turned on me without even talking to me.

I know that if she had come back and we had tried to work on our marriage, I would have never been in the same room as her one sister who enabled her again. I would have been friendly with the other two, even though they haven't contacted me since she told them about her affair. Actually, I have no idea what she told them...


Posts: 1323 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
Hopefulguy
New Member
Member # 39219
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, May 24th (Friday)

It's hard.

I'm in a similar situation sex with my WW was not very stellar she had basically reduced it to a cost benefit analysis of time vs a little pleasure and thought the time was too much.

Then I find out she's been having wonderful sex with another man.

It was a little shattering, I knew our sex life sucked but sort of in my mind thought it was something with her, we've spent hours and hours talking about it before how to try to make it worth it for her but she just wasn't that into it. She said her mind would just drift to other topics etc which is very different from what my mind was doing I thought that was the disconnect.

But now we are committed to rebuilding a sex life that works. At the same time I struggle with the feeling that it took a third party to break into my life and try to ruin everything to get her inboard with this effort. I'm sure ill be much happier if we succeed but at the same time.. How do I accept that this is a byproduct of a disastrous period in my life.

Granted I'm only two weeks out.

As for the feelings I guess you need to ask her if she wants you or not. I've had similar feelings and its not much fun.

As for the sister... Fool me once etc. I doubt that bond between you two was strong enough to withstand this.

Don't just view the sex as tell me what he did to make you like it. Yes she should be pleased too but so should you. Don't just recreate the hem, create a new you and her to make something different than it was before but I imagine you'd only haunt yourself if you just tried to become the OM in bed. Save yourself that pain and be true to yourself.

As to the OM being a better lover...I read somewhere in the healing library that trying to compare an affair to a relationship is wholly unfair. They had a lot going for their super sex feelings, being taboo, naughty, deceitful, lying, cheating, all made it better in their minds. She obviously released all her inhibitions and just let go, and he obviously wasn't complaining. This is the part that sucks, the... Why the hell didnt you just come to me for your sexual renaissance feeling. It wasn't just him though it was her is what I'm trying to say so get her to she'd those inhibitions with you and enjoy it.

I'll stop rambling now sorry reading your story sort of brought my own back into my head but I hope some of my rambling may be helpful.


D-day 5/7/13

Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2013
kansas1968
Member
Member # 32214
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, May 24th (Friday)

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

Many of the questions that you asked, we have all asked ourselves. Our marriage is also better via the affair, and I also feel like I am rewarding him for the most obnoxious behavior. He disrespected me, betrayed me in ways I still cringe to think about, but nevertheless, our relationship and communications have improved.

I think I was like your wife. I really didn't listen to him and really had just kind of lost interest in him. Of course, in my case, he had the affair, not me. I just have (had) such an aversion to affairs while married, I don't think I could have ever, or can never, do it.

You are just starting on the roller-coster from hell. You will hate her, love her, pity her, and dispise her. Maybe all in the same day!! If she truly loves you and wants it to work, and an affair is not a deal breaker for you, then you can make it through it.

By the way, any guy who is as interested in pleasing his wife sexually as you are can not possibly be a bad lover.


Me - BS
Him - FWS
DD - December 14, 2010
Married 43 years 1/14/2011
Affair lasted 7+ years
Affair had been over for 2 years before I found out. OW sent me a letter.

Posts: 1183 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Kansas
Tiredofthepain
Member
Member # 37932
Default  Posted: 6:41 PM, May 24th (Friday)

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

I said the same thing to my WS! That I don't know what else she would want because even though my heart breaks for you, your post was one of the most entertaining ones I have read.

As stated by others, you are just starting on this very long and very painful journey.
My WS has stated the sex he had with the prostitutes was boring and generic, but of course I don't believe it, can't imagine how I would feel if he had actually told me good things about them. That just seems like sticking the knife in deeper and deeper.
Take care of yourself right now and post often, there are some great people here.


ME-BS 48
HIM-WS 38
WS is SA, multiple visits to prostitutes.
Status: Hanging in there

I would rather be told a hurtful truth than a comforting lie.

Posts: 559 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: NC
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, May 24th (Friday)

how do you deal with it? get rid of her. tell her to go to find her spiritual experience so you can have a wife that isn't so shallow and gullible. So you can have a wife that's honest and faithful.

either that, or deal with the fact that she's daydreaming about him at this very moment. As evidenced by her post in WW.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, May 24th (Friday)

I thank you for your thoughtful responses. Though I can't respond to everything, I would like to respond to some.

h0peless: I appreciate your insights and the detail of your responses.

I think you have to recognize that you can't ever be everything for anybody and that relationships with that sort of requirement are toxic and unhealthy. Our relationships should supplement our happiness and our wholeness as people, not define or depend on them.

This is fucking brilliant. This is my issue that has been exposed and enhanced by the A. And I need to come to grips with this.

He's not worth thinking about. Try thinking about something that has some sort of actual value instead, like the way you felt after taking your morning shit. He has less value as a human being than what you flushed when you were done.

LOL!

Hopefulguy:

I guess you need to ask her if she wants you or not.

She tells me and is showing me more each day that she does. In even the worst of her emails, she always stated that she would never leave me and she never told the APs that she loved them. Even in the "fog" she appears to have kept those boundaries. She even purposely chose men that were unobtainable for marriage - hence the cheaters website.

Don't just view the sex as tell me what he did to make you like it. Yes she should be pleased too but so should you. Don't just recreate the hem, create a new you and her to make something different than it was before but I imagine you'd only haunt yourself if you just tried to become the OM in bed. Save yourself that pain and be true to yourself.

This is fantastic advice. Thank you!

They had a lot going for their super sex feelings, being taboo, naughty, deceitful, lying, cheating, all made it better in their minds. She obviously released all her inhibitions and just let go

As she has come out of the fog WW has been backpeddling slightly to this position. But AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them. She did also have some complaints about AP that I didn't mention.

kansas1968 and Tiredofthepain:

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

By the way, any guy who is as interested in pleasing his wife sexually as you are can not possibly be a bad lover.

I said the same thing to my WS! That I don't know what else she would want because even though my heart breaks for you, your post was one of the most entertaining ones I have read.

Your words made me laugh and feel better. I don't know if it's appropriate here, but getting female validation feels very good. The ironic thing is that WW and I have never really written to each other in 16 years. I don't think she even knew I could write.

mike7:

how do you deal with it? get rid of her. tell her to go to find her spiritual experience so you can have a wife that isn't so shallow and gullible. So you can have a wife that's honest and faithful.
either that, or deal with the fact that she's daydreaming about him at this very moment. As evidenced by her post in WW.

I've been dealing with it as if she is addicted and that it is an addiction she will kick, if she wants to. Her honesty about her feelings in her post (that she clearly knows I can view) I hope displays her commitment. However, she has displayed surprising manipulative skills during the As and after d-day. But, as of the last few days, has shown many signs of the fog of deceit lifting and her understanding the gravity of her actions.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, May 24th (Friday)

i'm sorry. that was a little harsh. You're hurting and i sympathize. i just see the same story over and over again. i even see it in my life. there's two guys at work who's wives are having an affair, for months. the guys are just clinging and hoping and moping. I've tried to direct them here, but they just can't imagine life without their wives.

the world is FULL of women. and maybe I'm an optimist, but I think the majority are more genuine than these cheating WWs.

YOU deserve more that her. You don't deserve to put up with that shit. Whatever your problems in your marriage were, you didn't deserve for her to sign up to AM so she could fuck people. that is just unbelievably fucked up. I don't know why you don't throw her clothes out on the street. that's what she deserves.

As far as the sister? I think you should tell her she's not welcome at your house or around your children, and tell her why.

As far as advice goes, I'd say don't pay any attention to what your wife is saying about the great sex. And I recommend you get IC. pronto. You're in for a bad ride friend.

there are others here who can give better advice than me. I'm sorry that I ranted about your situation, and i'm sorry for what you are going through.


take care of yourself friend.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, May 24th (Friday)

However, we have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life. WW somewhat subconsciously used the same techniques on me and even aside from the usual HB effect, the sex was the most powerful I'd ever experienced.

You do know that if you search "better sex" on amazon.com, you get 16,735 books. Imagine how many tips are contained therein, and how easy it would have been for your wife to try some out ON HER HUSBAND.

OM is not some kind of uberstud. He's just a loser who spends his time trolling and f*cking.

The problem is that your wife is messed-up. She actually thought the grass was greener on trashy, shallow AM profiles than with her unique, creative, faithful husband. For healthy women, commitment is a turn-on. A healthy woman may get off on slut role playing, but actually being treated like a slut--only broken people look for that.

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

If your sex life is better it is because of changes in the two people having the actual sex. Two people who are finally more vulnerable towards each other and stop taking each other for granted are likely to have better sex.

Why did it take something so drastic and toxic for your wife to "reveal her frailties"? Because messed-up people have layers of denial and bravado as protection from their own problems. They do not want to admit that they are deeply flawed.

If your marriage gets better it will be because your wife becomes a better person (which will likely take time and a ton of IC to address whatever's underneath her stupid, irresponsible, hurtful behavior).

If she does this work and learns to value you, the marriage, and herself than the credit goes to her. If you grow into a more understanding, communicative person the credit goes to you. You both could thrive due to your own resolve and wisdom. If that happens, it has zero zip nada to do with OM the sleaze guru.

[This message edited by sailorgirl at 8:12 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, May 24th (Friday)

Thanks mike7 for your support.

YOU deserve more that her. You don't deserve to put up with that shit. Whatever your problems in your marriage were, you didn't deserve for her to sign up to AM so she could fuck people. that is just unbelievably fucked up. I don't know why you don't throw her clothes out on the street. that's what she deserves.

My WW has actually said something similar to me in the last few days. The thought has not escaped me that I'm still being played and lied to. My eyes are wide open. I only have my gut to go on in judging her sincerity. She has very high technical skills and she wouldn't be careless enough to get caught again, if that is her desire.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
Tiredofthepain
Member
Member # 37932
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, May 24th (Friday)

I am glad what I said made you laugh and feel better. We all desperately need that now and no, there is nothing wrong with appreciating it from the opposite sex.

We are only human and the very person we loved and trusted has betrayed us and caused us unbelievable pain.

We all want to feel needed, attractive, special and those closest to us stole that from us and our lives by their selfish, self serving actions.
I read her post on the WW side and sounds like she only partly gets what she has done.

I don't know anyone here personally, but do know not one of us here deserved this crap.

Laughter is about the only thing that saves me these days so glad it helped. Hang in there.


ME-BS 48
HIM-WS 38
WS is SA, multiple visits to prostitutes.
Status: Hanging in there

I would rather be told a hurtful truth than a comforting lie.

Posts: 559 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: NC
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, May 24th (Friday)

But AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them.
We have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life

I, personally, would NEVER be able to change *my* sex way to *mimic* an AP's style. No fucking way. Even IF you do some technique of *his* that was 'spiritual'....it's not going to be the same because YOU ARE YOU. You are NOT him.

IMO, this whole 'sex' thing is a red herring. You could have been the KingKong of the BedRoom and your WW STILL would have betrayed you.

I just don't know how 'adopting' anything from the OM is going to affect your mindset in the long run. I'd be really careful with doing that because I can guarantee that, although your marriage may end up being repaired and better than ever.....you will NEVER forget 'why' you are doing <whatevernewmove>. Maybe a guy that is in R can weigh in on that issue.....

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting.

I agree with kansas....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7254 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, May 24th (Friday)

sailorgirl: Thank you for your insights.

You do know that if you search "better sex" on amazon.com, you get 16,735 books. Imagine how many tips are contained therein, and how easy it would have been for your wife to try some out ON HER HUSBAND.

This has been a primary issue for us. I have asked a million times what she wants (sexually) and she says "nothing" or "everything is fine." She has come to this realization and even had another Aha! moment today about not being able to say what she wants. I also have been loathe to accept criticism. And that became clear to me in the aftermath of d-day. But what you say about other options for aquiring knowledge of "better sex" is clearly true and even she is realizing this, I think.

They do not want to admit that they are deeply flawed.

I'm not going to defend WW or her actions. But at least verbally, she is admitting to her issues and taking responsibility for her actions. Only time will tell if she is not playing me.

As everyone here can probably tell, I have lost most of my confidence sexually and somewhat as a person, and I'm not quite sure what to do about that. But the support and advice here is helpful.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 8:51 PM, May 24th (Friday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, May 24th (Friday)

As everyone here can probably tell, I have lost most of my confidence sexually and somewhat as a person, and I'm not quite sure what to do about that.

I have no answers for you there. I'm 10 months out from Dday and can't imagine having sex with someone else again. I think the prevailing wisdom is to work through the pain, don't stuff your new issues or turn to something unhealthy like drugs, booze or revenge affairs and eventually you'll find your way. I'm not there yet but that's the theory I'm operating under.


Posts: 1323 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 9:06 PM, May 24th (Friday)

IMO, this whole 'sex' thing is a red herring. You could have been the KingKong of the BedRoom and your WW STILL would have betrayed you.

I agree with you, that she would have strayed anyway. In fact her first AP couldn't get it up, so she's had both ends of the spectrum.

I should really say what "technique" I'm referring to. The primary thing that the AP did was constant eye contact during sex. It creates a real connection and is just something I never really gave much thought to. Now that I've been made aware of it, I think it's brilliant and I can't believe I never discovered this before.

Once I realized that I didn't look in her eyes much during sex, I found I was missing a lot of pleasure. It's hard to now say, "Well, I learned this from her A, so I won't look into eyes."

There were some other things that he did too. Most of them were like, "duh, why didn't I think of that?" It's hard to admit at 51 years old that there is still a lot I can learn about sex.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
kansas1968
Member
Member # 32214
Default  Posted: 2:09 AM, May 25th (Saturday)

"Your words made me laugh and feel better. I don't know if it's appropriate here, but getting female validation feels very good."
*******************

Of course it is appropriate. We all suffer the same pain, male or female, and many times it does help to get a perspective from the opposite sex.

It might be helpful for you to read some of the women waywards posts.

Lots of good books out there also. Good articles in the healing library on this site.


Me - BS
Him - FWS
DD - December 14, 2010
Married 43 years 1/14/2011
Affair lasted 7+ years
Affair had been over for 2 years before I found out. OW sent me a letter.

Posts: 1183 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Kansas
standinghere
Member
Member # 34689
Default  Posted: 3:00 AM, May 25th (Saturday)

AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them

You are absolutely right. But what was really going on?

He was cheating.

She was cheating.

They were doing something that is "forbidden".

You cannot cheat with your spouse, and you don't realize how fucked up she is to do this to another human being. Cheating is extremely hurtful to other people.

Frankly, I'm no slough in the sack, and I don't have many inhibitions, but I would never do with my wife what the OM did (fuck in a public place and risk being arrested).

Prior poster is correct, lots of sex tips in books, you don't have to fuck over someone who loves you to improve your sex life.

Don't romanticize cheating, that's just fog-talk.

It is like romanticizing drowning a child in a bathtub, like those crazed parents who kill their children. Think of that, then add those words she said "it was like a spiritual experience" and "he looked into my soul". Yeah, fog-talk.


BH - Me - Late 30's (now late 40's)
WW - Her - Late 30's (now late 40's)
4 Children
Her - Love of my life...still is.
Reconciled - Partly...she can't get over it.
Her - Thunderstruck by what she did.

Posts: 894 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: USA
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, May 25th (Saturday)

The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul."

AKA as "baggage free sex." It's illicit and forbidden. It's free of children, mortgages, credit card bills, alarms going off at 6:00 a.m., morning breath, and running toilets.

A husband can't compete with that and shouldn't try, because it's a fantasy to begin with. Marriage is a commitment of two people trying to make it in this world together, not unicorns and rainbows. She needs to get her head on straight.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
OK now
Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

Your post renders me somewhat speechless. There seems almost an admiring acceptance of the adultery your WW has committed. Makes it somewhat more likely she could do this again sometime in the future, so she could once more share a spiritual experience of OM looking into her soul. The pursuit of ecstasy.

Your WW is presently treading very carefully; doesn't want to lose her secure marriage to a very suitable life companion. Its almost as if your wife is telling you she got lessons from an experienced professional; now you as a naive amateur get to learn how to make love properly. A trifle condescending don't you think?

Of course, she may need to use AM for more love lessons in the future, so as to introduce increased physical efficiency into your sex life. I suppose she is assuming you will respond as you are reacting to the current cheating.

This is so wrong; you are almost making a virtue of her betrayal and she escapes the condemnation she richly deserves for risking pregnancy, exposing you to disease and staining the marriage forever.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or out of touch with modern trends.


Posts: 1491 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

Ok Now: I find your post a "trifle condescending" and loaded with your own projections - providing no relevant insight.

Please keep your insults and negativity to yourself.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
kansas1968
Member
Member # 32214
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

Sometimes members can be a bit harsh. Cheating makes them angry and it spills over sometimes into sounding like they are angry with you. You are very new to DDay and you haven't reached the anger stage yet. You are still trying to rationalize what happened, to make it not so bad. We all did that, and then the anger phase hit, white hot rage. Some hit that stage right away and others it takes a while.

Sorry you were upset by that last post, but remember that all of these folks have suffered also. They are angry at your WW, not at you. Keep posting. This site helped me tremendously and I wish I had found it sooner. It was about five months before I did.

So sorry you are having to deal with this. One of our posters (male) tag line was, "I never knew there was this much pain in the world."

I think that says it all.


Me - BS
Him - FWS
DD - December 14, 2010
Married 43 years 1/14/2011
Affair lasted 7+ years
Affair had been over for 2 years before I found out. OW sent me a letter.

Posts: 1183 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Kansas
OK now
Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

No insults intended; that would be very much out of place directed to someone who is suffering this kind of betrayal.

The point I am trying to make concerns your response. It shouldn't be so forgiving; you need to make this an intensely cathartic experience for your wife as well. She needs to be overwhelmed with remorse and self-condemnation; horrified at the dreadful thing she has done. Your response is key to generating the realization in your wife that she has betrayed you and let you down in the worst way.

One goal you are trying to achieve is to ensure this never happens again and this is accomplished by the exposure of your feelings of pain and anger and the realization by your WW that she indeed was the cause of it. Embracing the OM's sexual techniques sends the wrong message.


Posts: 1491 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

OK now:
There seems almost an admiring acceptance of the adultery your WW has committed.

From where do you get that? It did happen and I do have to accept that. My post and questions were about how I move forward with that knowledge.

Makes it somewhat more likely she could do this again sometime in the future, so she could once more share a spiritual experience of OM looking into her soul. The pursuit of ecstasy.

What makes it more likely that she'll do it again? I have told her unequivocally that if she does it again I'm gone. I didn't put that or a lot of things in the post because it was not relevant to the questions I had. I also stated, "WW has realized much of her experience was a self-created delusion."

Your WW is presently treading very carefully; doesn't want to lose her secure marriage to a very suitable life companion.

How do you know this? And if she is, isn't that what she should be doing?

Its almost as if your wife is telling you she got lessons from an experienced professional; now you as a naive amateur get to learn how to make love properly. A trifle condescending don't you think?

She told me because I asked her to give me details. I requested she be totally honest and not hold back. Because she was in the fog, her details were embellished. I don't like what she told me, but she was doing what I demanded of her.

Of course, she may need to use AM for more love lessons in the future, so as to introduce increased physical efficiency into your sex life.

I have made it clear that I would not stick around for that about a week ago and that seemed to the beginning of her fog begginning to disipate and lead to her admission of breaking NC.

I suppose she is assuming you will respond as you are reacting to the current cheating.

I did not really mentioned how I've reacted to her A, except the parts that were relevant to my questions.

This is so wrong; you are almost making a virtue of her betrayal and she escapes the condemnation she richly deserves for risking pregnancy, exposing you to disease and staining the marriage forever.

This is exactly what I'm wrestling with and what I questioned specifically; the issue of her being rewarded for having an A. I'm not making a virtue out of anything she did. But that does mean that positive results won't be part of the outcome. I assume most on SI would hope that the aftermath of an A would lead to a better marriage in the end. Otherwise, an A will most assuredly happen again.

The point I am trying to make concerns your response. It shouldn't be so forgiving

In what part am I being forgiving?

Your response is key to generating the realization in your wife that she has betrayed you and let you down in the worst way.

How is my response wrong and what should it be?

One goal you are trying to achieve is to ensure this never happens again and this is accomplished by the exposure of your feelings of pain and anger and the realization by your WW that she indeed was the cause of it. Embracing the OM's sexual techniques sends the wrong message.


I have exposed my anger and pain to her extensively. I'm not sure why you think I have not.

As I stated in a previous post, the primary "technique" was simply eye contact. It's hard to say now, that I'm not going to look into WWs eyes during sex because the AP did, even if it makes the sex more enjoyable for both of us.

But this is a useful point you make. This has been a sticking point in our marriage. She doesn't tell me what she wants and then I feel like I can't please her. So, it is difficult for me to now finally have her tell me what she likes and then say, well "now I don't want to hear it." I want her to tell me and I always have. She is finally embracing the fact that she has held everything in and not spoken her mind and built up resentments. I don't want us to go back down that road. This is the crux of the issue I'm dealing with. How do I move forward in healing our marriage issues without feeling like I'm rewarding her for the A.

kansas1968:

You are very new to DDay and you haven't reached the anger stage yet. You are still trying to rationalize what happened, to make it not so bad. We all did that, and then the anger phase hit, white hot rage. Some hit that stage right away and others it takes a while.


I'm not sure if it's helpful to tell me what stage I'm in. I don't think it's clear what stage I'm in. I didn't mention anger in my post because I don't have questions about anger.

I didn't mention the days at a time that I can't even look at her or the verbal abuse I've spewed at her; or the dramatic positive changes I've seen in her in the last week; or the fact that, except for breaking NC, she has done everything I've asked to support me. I hate what she did and she can't undo that. But all I can do is try to make the best of it and move forward.

And anger is discussed a lot on SI and I can get those questions answered by reading other posts. The questions I raised were on topics that I couldn't find elsewhere Excluding some of the things I'm going though may have lead some to skewed conclusions.

I don't believe I was trying to rationalize it as "not so bad." I was trying to reconcile my feelings that something really horrible can have some positive outcomes; and accepting that is very difficult.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 6:18 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

AdamsApple, the wry tone in your first post may have been misinterpreted, or it could be that your marriage and thus your reaction to your wife's "cheating" is different in fundamental ways from the majority of SIers.

Your wife states that she is bisexual, and the two of you have had threesomes with woman during the marriage. Also, you are "allowed to fuck other women" and have had perhaps about 20 during the marriage.

Plus, you told your wife that she could fuck other men as long as you never found out about it.

To me infidelity in this context is no longer straightforward.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

I was just coming here to post about the additional complexity and layers that are present in your situation....

....and I see that SailorGirl just did that.

The reason that I was going to bring it up.....is because I can't quite put my finger on what your *issue* is......and why you aren't a bit more......well, humble (considering your own history in the marriage.)


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7254 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

indeed. i did not know all the details. i assumed a more typical relationship. my bad.

i really have no advice. if you guys have an open marriage, i wouldn't have a clue what you are upset about or why.

i hope things work out for the both of you, whatever that may be.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

sailorgirl and gonnabe2016:

Think back to the outlandish lies your WSs told on D-Day. Hell, my WW also said in that post that I had gained 50 lbs. But, at the time of her A I was 20 lbs. heavier (at 6'2") than the day we were married (12 years ago) and, thanks to the A-diet, I'm now only 10 lbs. heavier.

My WW didn't have permission to do what she did and admits it right in her signature.

You are now acting as a surrogate for my WW from when she was still in the A and was deep in the fog and lying and distorting almost everything.

and why you aren't a bit more......well, humble (considering your own history in the marriage

You have no idea what our history is and the fact that you are throwing back my WW's lies at me is appalling. I've already had to battle these lies once with her. I don't want to do it again here with you.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 8:43 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 8:51 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

Here is a later quote from my WW admitting that she lied.

I have never been diagnosed. But I lied and embellished in my previous post...the one before I consummated the EA. BH is not a narcissist; I'll let him describe his own personality if he cares to, and will speak only for myself. Most of what I said about BH was distorted by my own fucked-up lens.

I am appalled that I disparaged my sweet, considerate, hunky husband to you and several cheating POS' s on AM. That is something even I was very sorry about from DD.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 8:58 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

So, the marriage was only open for you, but not for her?


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 9:05 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

So, the marriage was only open for you, but not for her?

It was open for both of us with women. That is all she said she was interested in. And even in that situation I only had sex with 3 other women for a total of 4 times in 12 years (when she wasn't with me). And each time I would double-check with her to make sure she was alright with it.

She had also spent the night with at least one woman when I wasn't there.


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:05 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

You have no idea what our history is and the fact that you are throwing back my WW's lies at me is appalling. I've already had to battle these lies once with her. I don't want to do it again here with you.

Look, AA. I know exactly what it is like to have random people drink your WS's Kool-Aid. I actually have experienced it also.

I have read BOTH you and your WS's posts. Your WW admitted that she misconstrued you being a narcissist. She, nowhere in her posts, ever said she was lying about the fact that you had been sleeping with other women (20 in 16 yrs) and that she didn't care as long as you came home to her. She also said that you *okayed* her extracurriculars as long as 'you didn't know about them'. She is obviously under the impression that you have been much more 'extracurricularly' active than you are claiming to be.....look at her username. She says 20, you say it's 3.

I really don't care because it's between you guys. If there was some type of arrangement in your marriage....ok, fine. I.Don't.Care. If you or she chooses farm animals or vegetables for sex acts....I.Don't.Care.

Just give a clear and honest recounting of your true situation so that everyone that takes the time to read and ingest your words knows what the deal is. Your situation is extremely complicated and it is just a tad bit outside the norm of what all of the posters are used to seeing.....so be patient with us as we try to wrap our heads around your situation. No one is going to judge you. But we can't offer good suggestions without accurate information. Just sayin'.

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 9:20 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7254 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, May 25th (Saturday)

I don't think what I wrote was, "appalling".

I don't think her lies were "outlandish" either. She says 20, you say 4, but you were having sex with other women. You should probably add the women you both had to your total, but numbers don't matter as much as the true nature of your relationship.

A big sticking point in your marriage has been that she does not tell you what she wants from you sexually. She has trouble speaking her mind to you, so you feel like you can't please her. Maybe it would have pleased her if you wanted to be faithful.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
CallMeRed1
Member
Member # 36870
Default  Posted: 3:54 AM, May 26th (Sunday)

Hi AdamsApple

I just wanted to say you are one hell of a writer and I hope you will do more writing, you're very good at it, it's a gift to be able to be entertaining when you're writing about something painful.

As for your relationship and betrayal, I have read all the posts and know you had your agreement between the two of you. The fact that you're both on this site means that you want to try and work out how to move on from here.

Whether you work it out together or separately is really up to you two. I know you have your arrangement with your WW and I find it interesting that you wouldn't mind her having sex with other women but do mind her having sex with other men. I would say "what's the difference" but I know what the difference is - the anatomy, right?

I guess you two need to either discuss what you are *both* allowed to do whilst remaining married, and move on together, or just call it quits. That sounds simple writing it down, and I know it isn't, but I do think you both have a lot of talking and thinking ahead.

Good luck to both of you.


D-Day 19 July 2012
Me - BS - 42
Status: Divorced

Posts: 173 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: England
Trying33
Member
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 4:10 AM, May 26th (Sunday)

[This message edited by Trying33 at 4:12 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]


Posts: 354 | Registered: Mar 2013
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, May 26th (Sunday)

AA...I have not read all of your posts. So I do not know the whole situation..but my question is;

If your wife had come to you and said she wanted to sleep with other men would you have been ok with that?

I have never had an "open marriage" by choice ( unknown to me, my wh had a fuck buddy, a female acquaintance of ours) and i dont understand the concept. It seems to me that you both were sleeping around and you were ok with it as long as she only slept with women.

Im just curious. Im not attacking you so please don't be offended. I was really saddened by your post but then when all the sex you and your wife were having with other people was brought up...i was like, " uh ok huh?!"

Why does it make a difference if she slept with a man or a woman? Why for you is it ok for your wife to have sex with other women but not men? Why if its a man then to you its cheating? But if its a woman its not?


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1037 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
hatefulnow
Member
Member # 35603
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, May 26th (Sunday)

No advice, but you've been heard.

Posts: 118 | Registered: May 2012
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, May 26th (Sunday)

I realized that what I should have said in my last post was that maybe your wife would have been more satisfied and open to you sexually if she knew you wanted to be monogamous. If she knew that you didn't need to fuck other women, and didn't want her approval for that.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
TheAgonyOfIt
Member
Member # 39114
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, May 26th (Sunday)

hi apple, well i can tell you that based on my HB sex with WS, that he has grown a lot sexually during A. I asked him about this and he said OW didn't teach him anything, in fact she was inexperience, but that she was a willing participant. My WS is a very creative lover and I guess she was up for and open to anything and he's a better lover than before. This is hard for me to digest; in a way, i wonder if the affair was necessary to allow us to reconnect and if it was like a warrior journey in the sort of robert bly tradition (if i remember correctly).

In any case, it is hard to stomach. I asked him why sex was so amazing with her (my words not his) and he just answered, as if I had already known it was amazing. well it went on for 4.5 years; sex had to be better than good.

painful, yes.


Me BS 49,Him: narcissist! Truly. 4.5yr LTA. DDays 4/2013, true Jekyll Hyde. Working through my anger at myself for making entirely too many compromises, and so so many excuses for him. Upset at my blindness.

Posts: 525 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: theagonyofit
Tiredofthepain
Member
Member # 37932
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, May 27th (Monday)

Betrayal, is betrayal, whether you have an open marriage or not. Open marriages have rules just like monogamous ones do. The lifestyle isn't for me, but if it works for others and no one gets hurt, then go for it.
Obviously I was in an open marriage and didn't realize it.. wish I had known, would have gotten me a BF at the time and I wouldn't have had to pay for it.

You are upset because as long as she was only with other women, you didn't feel threatened, they don't have a penis and don't pose a sexual threat like another man would. I get that. I almost wish my SAWS had cheated on me with men, because they wouldn't be a threat to me as a woman. I know how you feel about your sexuality and how that is what hurts the most, it's the same for me, the sting of knowing he had sex with anyone besides me kills me, but he did with hookers! How low can you go and how much worse it is on my self esteem to feel insecure about myself now and compare myself to whores? yeah, pisses me off to no end.

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you concerning your now bruised sexual ego, but doing what the OM did, for me would only make me feel worse, a lot worse. If our WS can't be happy with us, the way we are sexually, then they need to just move on.


ME-BS 48
HIM-WS 38
WS is SA, multiple visits to prostitutes.
Status: Hanging in there

I would rather be told a hurtful truth than a comforting lie.

Posts: 559 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: NC
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 4:17 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)

I really didn't want to get into our unique lifestyle for several reasons. One is that it was of dwindling significance in our lives. It sharply decreased after our marriage twelve years ago and has been almost non-existent in the nine years since we decided to have children.

The second reason is that many people have an overwhelmingly negative visceral reaction to "open marriages" and associate them with cheating, which they are not. There is also a strong curiosity about them which I feared (correctly) might derail my purpose for this thread.

The third reason is that I didn't feel (possibly naively) it had any relevance to my questions and issues. And it seems this thread has become more of a debate on my lifestyle choices then my WS's affairs.

I never tried to convince WS to particate in any lifestyle that was unfair to her. When we met I was wounded from many ill-fated relationships. By 35, I had reached two conclusions. I would never marry again and I wouldn't limit myself to sleeping with just one woman for the rest of my life. Incidentally, in the 17 prior years of relationships, including a 3 year first marriage, I had always been monogamous and faithful.

Then, along came 20WrongsVs1 into my life.

With her permission, I will post some things she recently wrote to her sister which explain our relationship and some of the items she posted here on IS, while in the fog.

If you think [AdamsApple] is some sex-aholic who led innocent, damaged little 20WrongsVs1 down the path to depravity: think again, sista, because it was the total opposite! When we met, I had already engaged in (at least) 3 "threesomes" before the age of 25. He was 35 and never had one. What you may not realize is: I led him down our sexually unconventional paths of threesomes, swinging, etc.

But I have been lying to myself as well as to you. It was always our arrangement that I could be with women, and I have been several times. It's been a long time, though, and my bisexual leanings have faded: like I went from 70/30 to about 95/5 as far as the hetero/homo ratio :) That's glib and I don't mean to be offensive. But the point is, until about a year ago, the thought of being with another man made me sick! It was not something I ever saw myself wanting. Seriously, a new penis, eww, gross! AdamsApple says he figured someday I might get drunk and act on an impulse and fuck some guy, and in that circumstance he would've been able (he thinks) to accept it, so long as it happened out of town, and the guy didn't know AdamsApple existed. But I twisted that "permission" to my own ends. I had an ongoing, romantic relationship with two different men--and that was never OK, and I knew it. And because I left all my inhibitions at the door, I ended up having a very interesting sexual experience with OM. Which, justifiably, hurts and frustrates AdamsApple because I have always--for 16 years--been shy about telling him what I want in the sack. Then I go meet some relative stranger in a hotel room and come back feeling all "sexually reawakened" which has been both fantastic and awful for us. That's a jagged pill for AdamsApple to swallow.

Since my original post, my WS has, it seems, come out of the fog. She appears to have immense regret (the kind of which I've never seen in her before). She has written emails to her sister, trying to repair that damage. She has finally decided to face the sexual abuse she went through at a very young age and has reached out to her parents for support.

I still hurt a great deal, but over the past week I really believe she is back; and her sincerity in facing her brokenness has helped ease my pain a great deal. I feel like we are a team again. A great harm was done to her a long time ago and now she has done a great harm to me. But maybe it has given me the depth to understand what she is going through and be better able to help her. I also believe now that because she sees how this monster from her past has affected her; she will absolutely refuse to give him the power over her, that having another affair would entail.

This has also made me face my demons, those that were first attracted to the qualities of her brokenness. Now we are two very broken people that, hopefully, with each other; can grow more whole. In spite of our non-traditional path, I have always loved her very much and she is my best friend. I believe, now, she would say the same about me.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 4:21 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
lostandconfused4
New Member
Member # 39315
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)

I don't have advice but I just wanted to say that I think I understand. Your M is whatever you and your spouse agree to and breaking of that agreement is an incredibly painful betrayal. The agreements my H and I made were not the same and his betrayal not the same but it hurts all the same. Through the anger and pain there is also a part of me that is relieved to finally see the improvements (I had tried all I knew to fix our problems, including our sex life and he just wasn't open with what he wanted).
I still hurt a great deal, but over the past week I really believe she is back; and her sincerity in facing her brokenness has helped ease my pain a great deal. I feel like we are a team again...This has also made me face my demons, those that were first attracted to the qualities of her brokenness. Now we are two very broken people that, hopefully, with each other; can grow more whole.

I have been feeling exactly those words. I feel now that if we make it through this we will have a chance at the marriage I want.

[This message edited by lostandconfused4 at 6:34 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)]


me: 26 BW
him: 28 WH (patientarcher)
2 beautiful girls
D Day April 26th, 2013
In marriage, secrets are as dangerous as lies. Build your marriage on complete trust, honesty and communication

Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2013
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:02 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)

I am kinda confused about the whole arrogance thing, I thought the whole opening post was a laser-focus vent of rage humor.


How do I justify keeping WS from having what makes her happy, if I love her..even if that is another person?

Well, you set your boundaries and she decides if she can be happy observing those or not. If not, you part ways to follow those happiness trails or whatever.


How do I deal with the fact that my love and respect for her have kept me from treating her like the slut she sometimes wants to be. How can I change so that my concern for her needs and my love for her doesn't prevent me from being a better lover?

Well, that's not fair for you. It's like a woman who doesn't like anal asking how she can realistically deny the ass to her H. You find a happy medium, and if you can't find a happy medium then it's time to evaluate staying or going.


How do I reconcile the fact that OM was just a better lover and that our sex life can be better by using what he "taught" her?

Well, for me it took five minutes of google to work it out. It's only that monstrous because he did it to your wife. Otherwise these things aren't so much about technique as preference, and you can be the greatest lover in the circus but if she doesn't communicate what she likes, you won't get her off. Even with google.


How do I deal with the feeling that this experience will make me a far better H, yet I don't feel that she should be rewarded for betraying me. Does she deserve a better husband and marriage?

It's not about deserve so much as it's about want.


How do I accept that her A has improved our communication and enabled us to reveal our frailties?

IMO you don't. The A didn't do shit for the positive. Actions following it did. Anything that came out of it for the better could be the same and untainted without the A. You decide if you can accept the positive despite that, or not accept it and move on.


How do I accept the fact that she submitted to OM more emotionally and physically during sex than she ever has with me and the reward was far greater than it has been with me?

I dunno. My wife did the same but I don't want submissive. If that's what she wants, I can't give it to her anymore than I can call her names. These are about my comfort zone, not hers, and if she can't respect that then, I dunno, I'm not about to stick around for surprise buttsex.


How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

As a result of the A or as a result of better communication? Again, it's not a direct consequence of the A. The A is like alcoholism. People don't go, hooray, I'm an alcoholic, that means I now know just how fucking low I can sink! I'm gonna be an MMA star, glad I put back a bottle of Jack every night for three years! Kinda the same here.


How do I not think of him every time she goes a little deeper than she was previously willing or able; or when we do something that THEY did?

Yeah, that's gonna be rough.


I don't know whether I want to punch OM for taking my WW or thank him for the the great sex tips. That is difficult to bear.

Punch him. He probably got that shit from a google search, too.


Should her APs be outed so their BSs can know the truth? There were possibly two people that could have let me know about the As before final consummation and neither spoke up. I would have wanted to know before severe and irreversible damage was done.

IMO yes, but ultimately that's a personal decision.


Should I hold her sister accountable? I understand her view being tainted by my WW. But, she knew me. I thought she was family and she turned on me without even talking to me.

I would consider it a betrayal and have a more difficult time forgiving her because I'd have no real reason to.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 7:32 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)

**I don't have advice but I just wanted to say that I think I understand. Your M is whatever you and your spouse agree to and breaking of that agreement is an incredibly painful betrayal. The agreements my H and I made were not the same and his betrayal not the same but it hurts all the same. Through the anger and pain there is also a part of me that is relieved to finally see the improvements (I had tried all I knew to fix our problems, including our sex life and ****
I agree with this poster...Not everybody in the general population of the world is on the same page as to what they prefer in their day to day life, sex life,etc..
If people are intimate as a couple,threesome, or whatever the number of people are in the relationship, it seems to me that it would be painful if the agreement was broken by lies and deception..Betrayal is about breaking the agreement and throwing the person/people that trusted the betrayer under the bus..


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 799 | Registered: Nov 2011
hatefulnow
Member
Member # 35603
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)

Stay strong bro!

Posts: 118 | Registered: May 2012
la433
Member
Member # 38835
Default  Posted: 2:23 AM, May 29th (Wednesday)

AA~

I read this thread and don't see anyone judging you for your lifestyle choices. If they did, I must have missed it. But I understand what some posters wrote because of the assumption of the typical M between H and W.

But now that more details have been given regarding you and your WWs choices, I think we can all say that it is complicated to some degree, but very simple on another.

On one hand, you're not as broken as you think you are. Your feelings of being betrayed are normal. You obviously had rules in the relationship, and she broke them. You apparently did not.

Question: How did you feel when you were with those other women? I ask not to be overly intrusive, but to understand why you felt the need, even though it was ok. If it is too intrusive, then by all means ignore.

On the other hand, being that you and your wife had a semi-open relationship, that does complicate the physical intimacy issues that many of us don't understand, or care to understand. Even though I've been cheated on, in the unlikely event I'd ever consider another relationship with the member of the opposite sex, I'd never consider an open or semi-open or whatever you want to call it kind of relationship.

I'm afraid I have no advice, but it does sound like you guys are working on things, which is good. At least your WW (which is a weak assertion at this point) has at least admitted to it.

Most of the people on here their WSs lie until there is a smoking gun.


"Arise and be all that you dreamed." ~Flyleaf

Posts: 136 | Registered: Mar 2013
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, May 30th (Thursday)

StillGoing: Thank you for all your thoughtful answers and advice. I especially liked the following:

As a result of the A or as a result of better communication? Again, it's not a direct consequence of the A. The A is like alcoholism. People don't go, hooray, I'm an alcoholic, that means I now know just how fucking low I can sink! I'm gonna be an MMA star, glad I put back a bottle of Jack every night for three years! Kinda the same here.

Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, May 30th (Thursday)

Through many of the responses here (thanks everyone) and discussing things with my WS I'm beginning to come to some conclusions and have resolved many of my questions. I'm going to give my best attempt at answering my own questions here. Many of you may see your advice in my answers.

How do I deal with the fact that as one person, I can't be everything to the one I love?

Although one person obviously can't and shouldn't be everything, I (and WS) now are seeing the As as an issue with WS and not something she needed that was lacking in me.

How do I justify keeping WS from having what makes her happy, if I love her..even if that is another person?

It is a form of brokenness that made WS seek out others. She doesn't not need APs to be happy if she is emotionally healthy.

How do I deal with the fact that my love and respect for her have kept me from treating her like the slut she sometimes wants to be. How can I change so that my concern for her needs and my love for her doesn't prevent me from being a better lover?

WS and I have been communicating incredibly well and have worked out many of our sexual issues. I don't believe this will be a problem if we keep communicating.

How do I reconcile the fact that OM was just a better lover and that our sex life can be better by using what he "taught" her?

Both WS and I are coming to the conclussion that this was primarily because she was able to lower her inhibitions with her AP. Both her and I have been trying to do the same with each other and the sex has been out of the world. Because she lowered her inhibitions with AP, she was able to learn things about what she likes. She can't unlearn these things. However, I now believe that AP wasn't really anything special in the sack. He was adequate and that is all he needed to be in her frame of mind.

How do I deal with the feeling that this experience will make me a far better H, yet I don't feel that she should be rewarded for betraying me. Does she deserve a better husband and marriage?

Although she hurt me deeply, she is now having to face her childhood sexual abuse. We will have a better marriage, but she will also pay a great price for it.

How do I accept that her A has improved our communication and enabled us to reveal our frailties?

We both agree that we could have reached this place without the A, had she come to me. I don't owe the A anything.

How do I accept the fact that she submitted to OM more emotionally and physically during sex than she ever has with me and the reward was far greater than it has been with me?

I can only take comfort that this seems to be common in As and also in abuse victims. I think this is one of the hardest things for me to accept and forgive. She broke our bond - our partnership - and formed one with someone else. And the sex was only better because she allowed it to be better. Now that is changing with us.

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

Our sex life is better because we are communicating better. It should have happened without the A.

How do I not think of him every time she goes a little deeper than she was previously willing or able; or when we do something that THEY did?

There is no answer for this except time, hopefully.

I don't know whether I want to punch OM for taking my WW or thank him for the the great sex tips. That is difficult to bear.

As many here have stated. He did nothing for me except take advantage of my vulnerable, damaged and willing wife. He is a lowlife scumbag and I owe him nothing except my disdain.

Should her APs be outed so their BSs can know the truth? There were possibly two people that could have let me know about the As before final consummation and neither spoke up. I would have wanted to know before severe and irreversible damage was done.

WS and I have decided that she will probably send her AP's BSs apology emails, which would out at least one of them. The wifes deserve to know what their WHs are doing.

Should I hold her sister accountable? I understand her view being tainted by my WW. But, she knew me. I thought she was family and she turned on me without even talking to me.

I do hold her accountable. I don't know yet if she holds herself accountable at all. I don't know yet how this is going to shake out.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 6:48 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
Topic Posts: 47