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User Topic: MC philosophy. Affairs are a symptom of a failing marriage
allatsea
Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I've been looking on the internet to see the philosophies that marriage counsellors have in the UK. Do they consider that the affair is a symptom of a bad marriage?
Do they think that the betrayed should take some responsibility for the affair?
Does the cheater have a point when they say that I had no choice but to have an affair?

From what I've read the overwhelming conlusion is that the betrayed must shoulder some of the responsibility of the affair. Obviously we must accept at least 50% of the problems in the marriage but I haven't seen one therapist website that says that the cheater must accept 100% of the affair and should have dealt with it another way.

My WW keeps telling me "people don't have affairs for no reason". "I was unhappy in the marriage and I found someone who made me happy"

Does she have a point? Should I shoulder the blame, too?


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now has new baby
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 721 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
alphakitte
Member
Member # 33438
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

If she murdered someone would the victim be responsible for her behavior?


------ Some people are emotional tadpoles. Even if they mature they are just a warty toad. Catt

Posts: 350 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: 3 klicks north of Ambiguous
Hurtherbadly
New Member
Member # 32779
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Allatsea

NO!! I am a WS and I will tell you that it is not the fault of the spouse that the wayward betrayed you. You did NOTHING to deserve what she did to you...........PERIOD!!


Posts: 15 | Registered: Jul 2011
debbysbaby
Member
Member # 32962
Default  Posted: 7:28 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I certainly think the betrayed spouse should take responsibility for their part of the problems in the marriage, but the wayward spouse is the only one responsible for making the decision to have an affair.


-betrayed almost my whole almost 15 yr marriage
-divorced since 2004

Posts: 880 | Registered: Aug 2011
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

BS Here, I didn't see a stop sign.

Yes, one counselor we attempted to go to in the US believes that.

I do not believe that and it may be said that I am a tainted, bitter BS.

However, I was honestly, sincerely given not one iota of a clue that STBX was fooling around on the side.

So my counterpoint would be, how can we shoulder a burden we aren't aware of, when the WS acts out the marriage as if nothing is wrong and then re-writes it to counselors to justify what was done?

And, if I had any inkling, FWIW, I remember saying to him, "Let's go buy a book and read it together", "let's go to MC together or alone"...I worked 'til I was physically and emotionally sick to fix what he claimed was "wrong".


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess

Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.

-George Washington


Posts: 2287 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
rivenheart
Member
Member # 13838
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

In a word: nope. Cheaters are 100% responsible for their decisions to cheat. Responsibility for the problems of the marriage can be divided up any which way. After all, it only takes one spouse to wreck a M. It could even be that the BS was 95% responsible for the M problems. But that only justifies D, not an A. More often, it's the WS who's less invested in the M than the BS though. The less invested S is the one more inclined to cheat. However, there are cases of terrible M's where the WW looks for an easy exit, has an A, and turns it into an exit A. Not saying that's your case, and it's still not a valid excuse for an A. Again, bad marriage is a perfectly valid reason to D, but not to go screwing around.


rivenheart ~ heartriven
Me: BW, 36 at d-day; WH, 40

Posts: 1037 | Registered: Mar 2007
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I'm sorry if that's conflicting, for you see, when he finally spit what he was mad at, he was already gone but never told me he wasn't coming back, either.

He was out trying to fix his problems with other people and not with his wife.


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess

Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.

-George Washington


Posts: 2287 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
LonelyHusband
Member
Member # 34145
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

An affair is a symtom of someone wanting to have an affair and not having the boundaries to stop themselves.

Beyond that every marriage is unique, every reason different, every cause personal.


BS ( me) 41
fWS (OktoberMest) 35
D day #1 29/10/2011, D day #2 15/112011, D day #3 15/03/2012
Reconciling.
“It’s better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all”, is inadequate consolation when you vacuum up a child's hamster'

Posts: 1290 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: UK
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

So if my marriage was failing, why was it healthy, honest, passionate, fun, and functional up until WH went down the slippery slope? Because an affair is not a symptom of a "sick" marriage. An affair is a symptom of a "sick" person. Most WS's are not mentally ill--the disease is metaphorical. Their soul is suffering.

In my case, WH was suppressing his damaged psyche and hiding his insecurities. He was compensating, as if he had dyslexia. Since he is a caring person at the core, he was a good husband. UNTIL he got into a situation which required him to cope with extreme stress and manage emotional manipulation from FOO and OW.

The affair was a symptom of his inability to act like a responsible adult. No matter how great a wife I was, I couldn't make him grow up and deal with his FOO and weaknesses. Marriage itself doesn't have magical healing powers.

What about a situation where the marriage is going through difficulties? Ok, if tough issues in a marriage make people have affairs, why doesn't the BS cheat? Because healthy people do not lie to those who love them best, break sacred vows, sneak, deceive and act out like teenagers.

People do have affairs for a reason-- they are emotionally broken. If someone has a broken back, how ridiculous would it be for the doctor to insist on their spouse having surgery and being in a full body cast, too?


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
allatsea
Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I agree with everything you guys are saying. Obviously her blameshifting is hard to ignore. I know that we had a good and functional, passionate marriage right up to the point where she started to flirt with her boss and he flirted back. Then it spiralled and her loins took over.

But if what we are all saying on this forum is true,(and we would say that, wouldn't we?) why are the websites for counselling and lawyers full of statements about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Why isn't our belief the most commonly held view out there in the real world?

Bystanders seem to nod sagely that she must have had a reason, after all she isn't a bad person......



Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now has new baby
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 721 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
allatsea
Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

An affair is a symptom of someone wanting to have an affair and not having the boundaries to stop themselves

I do like this line

[This message edited by allatsea at 9:15 AM, June 6th (Thursday)]


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now has new baby
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 721 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
KeepCalm_CarryOn
Member
Member # 33374
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Why isn't our belief the most commonly held view out there in the real world?

Because the media and other outlets have glorified As. Because for the most part our society embraces bad behavior. And because, most of all, people don't talk about the emotions of an A. No one understands the pain/confusion/anger/etc. until they're in our position.


You are not dealing with rational people or situations. Normal thought processes won't work...story of my life.

Me- BW, 28
Him- fWh, 34
Mostly R'd, minus a few scars...bought a house and got a puppy...And baby makes 3! She arrived August


Posts: 2030 | Registered: Sep 2011
Bikingguy
Member
Member # 38103
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

First I don't think you can have one answer for every A.

The A started with WW and OM when he was single. POS meet someone and eventually got M - WW actually sang at their wedding, how sweet
But POS and WW continued the A for his entire M until this year. At least I had one or maybe two years of being M before it started. How could OM's BW take any of the blame for his fucked up ness?
We like to wrap up this shit sandwich into a nice statistic or one line answer, but I think it is WAY more complicated than that. That's my opinion anyway


Me: BH, 44
Her: WW, 43
D day. January 12, 2013

Posts: 675 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Socal
jackie89
Member
Member # 38271
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

NO WAY! I am not taking any responsibility for HIS affair!

Did he ever come to me in those 3 years of affair, and say, "I'm unhappy, I'm tired of being married, I would like that we work on this, that" ?? Nope

What did he do during those 3 years? We continued to have sex as always, not less that's for sure, other than him picking fights for stupid crap - during that time, I saw no other change from his normal behavior.

So, no in my case there were "no symptoms" in our marriage. Other than him wanting to explore the "unknown" with his COW/My Friend.


Separated/divorcing

"The Secret of Change is to focus all your energy - not on fighting the old, but on building the new" ~~Lori Greiner FB post~~


Posts: 509 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Pennsylvania
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

No.

You are 100% responsible for your actions, she is 100% responsible for hers. We each have a choice about how we react.

If she saw something in the M that made her unhappy, she could have made a choice to make herself happy. She did, though she says it was the person who did it...it wasn't. It was the validation she got from someone else.

There were other ways. They might have been harder and without instant gratification, but they would've been healthier.

There was the choice of asking you to go to MC in order to work on your issues, better communicate and get closer.

If you refused, she could've sought a good IC to check in and be sure he choices where healthy. What was hers to own and what was yours. Generally a person who cheats isn't being a perfectly loving person in the relationship and could help improve things by looking at themselves.

Finally- she had the option to D.

You only have responsibility for the A if she said something like, "I'm thinking of having an A" and you helped her make the choice to go ahead and have the A.

ETA- all this come from my IC and an abuse recovery program I was in (called Lifeskills International). I believe it to be true not because I need it to be true, but because that's my experience. I see my kids fight and show them they have a choice in how to react. To say someone makes our choices for us gives them too much power. Shitty things happen to us, we decide how to deal with it. The healthier we are, the better choices we make.

[This message edited by Holly-Isis at 9:43 AM, June 6th (Thursday)]


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11229 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
LivinginLimbo
Member
Member # 35004
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Hell no!! Our MC has repeatedly said that no matter what issues existed in our marriage, having an affair is never, ever an answer. That's all on him and has nothing to do with me.


BS - 62
FWH - 60
Married 34 years
D-Day 2/12/12
Doing well with R

Posts: 1046 | Registered: Mar 2012
Lovedyoumore
Member
Member # 35593
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, June 6th (Thursday)


I take 100% of my decision to marry a man that I knew had FOO issues. There was physical abuse by a NPD father, a passive aggressive control freak mother who continued to keep her son on a leash, exposure to porn during preteen years, compartmentalization on a family level ( good, Christian family externally while abusive and sick internally). My mistake was underestimating the damage.

After marriage counseling 15 years ago our marriage seemly broke loose of his family after the MC told my H he needed to emotionally divorce his parents, something that gave my H immense relief to go and live his life with me, free from their critique.

Life has its ups and downs to be dealt with. FOO issues complicate the normal process and what seems so easy to most of us becomes the descent into a pit of bad decisions for emotionally immature spouses. Even flawed, my WH is 100% responsible for making a very stupid, immature decision to cheat on me and our marriage. His IC told him that he used a illegitimate means to address some legitimate problems. These were not issues made by me nor was I allowed the participate in the decision making process. He used a double life, created by himself, for himself, to move into cheating. He learned how to do this at the feet of his parents. While he was learning deceit, distrust, and lying, my parents were teaching me truth, values, and trust. These two styles of living rarely mix well.

I now know this will be a life long struggle for him even after 35 years together. I cannot love him enough, watch him enough, clean enough, cook enough, have sex enough, or look good enough to keep him honest in our marriage. He has to work on himself, constantly, 100%.


Me 52
WH 52
Married 30+ years
Together trying to R

I tell people I am tired but really my heart is broken and I am sad.


Posts: 1527 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Southern, bless your heart
ReunitePangea
Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

My WW keeps telling me "people don't have affairs for no reason". "I was unhappy in the marriage and I found someone who made me happy"

Does she have a point? Should I shoulder the blame, too?

She is absolutely wrong. My WW's affair with OM1 started day one we met. There are others with a similar experience. Based on this it simply does not make logical sense that there has to be issues in the marriage to even have an affair. Your WW is 100% to blame for the A, not you. If there are issues in the marriage that is a separate issue which can be worked on when she starts owning her own shit.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 489 | Registered: Nov 2012
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

It doesn't matter whether the M was good or not. Although I agree that people don't have affairs for 'no reason', the reasons that they DO have affairs are within themselves: bad boundaries, bad coping mechanisms, conflict avoidance, poor communication, sense of entitlement, etc.

In a bad M? OK, then the solution to that problem is to either work to fix it or to leave it. How does having an A improve the M?? Oh yeah, it doesn't. It EXPLODES it.

Nothing you did MADE your spouse have an affair. They decided to do that all by themself.


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2606 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I tried to save our marriage. I did all I could from my end. Had more sex, did sex things that went against my beliefs & past my boundaries, ignored my own needs & desires so I could fully meet his, bought books, bought video tapes, subscribed to helpful emails, got us short-term marital counseling, prayed... Later on after DDay I insisted on more MC, IC, group therapy, tried to open lines of communication again, tried to act in healthy ways for my own mental health...

What more could I have done?

Oh. Right. The problem wasn't me. The problem was him.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9827 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
stillhere09
Member
Member # 24924
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, June 6th (Thursday)


But if what we are all saying on this forum is true,(and we would say that, wouldn't we?) why are the websites for counselling and lawyers full of statements about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Why isn't our belief the most commonly held view out there in the real world?

Well, in the first place, you have to consider who is running these websites and holding these views. Mostly, they are well-meaning, caring individuals that want to be a help to others, but who have no experience outside of book learning. Most of them are also young, many of them are fresh from college. While I am a great advocate of book learning, when you experience something in real life, it teaches so much more - and so much more thoroughly.

Also, I have seen many polls and statistics say that a shocking percentage of marriages with infidelity in their record were "happy marriages" before the affair. I have seen articles that say infidelity happens in GOOD marriages. Sometimes (as in the case with my first M) things are going very well, goals have been met, success can be claimed, kids are well-adjusted. One spouse or the other then looks around them and thinks, "So, what else is there?" They need a new challenge, and they make a tragic choice.

It seems incredible that affairs happen in good marriages, but when you think about it, you realize that, as Sailorgirl said, an affair is a symptom of a sick person, not a symptom of a sick marriage. Then it makes sense.

Many good marriages end up suffering from infidelity.

I'm not saying all infidelity happens in good marriages. Many marriages are troubled and rocky before the affair. In these cases, both partners are responsible for taking steps to heal the marriage, and if one chooses to have an A instead, then the A is all on the guilty partner, even though other problems may be on both their shoulders.


Me-50 BW
Him-55,STBXWH

Walk a Mile In My Shoes
Married 14 yrs. Now Separated & in NC
2 grown DD's - his from previous M
4 grown kids (2DS, 2DD) mine from previous M


Posts: 3020 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Ohio
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

As as wayward I took 100% responsibility. I remember SO saying it was partially his fault and me telling him no its not it is all on me. That was before I even found SI. She needs to take responsibility. She's right people don't have affairs for no reason. But that reason lies within her and her issues, not because of you.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2762 | Registered: Oct 2012
hopefullromantic
Member
Member # 16652
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

I cannot love him enough, watch him enough, clean enough, cook enough, have sex enough, or look good enough to keep him honest in our marriage. He has to work on himself...

As do we all. An A is a bad coping mechanism for problems in life, in general, not necessarily the marriage.


It's not really a fairy tale 'till the witch is deposed and a few dragons are slain

Posts: 1787 | Registered: Oct 2007
hopefullromantic
Member
Member # 16652
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

sorry, double post

[This message edited by hopefullromantic at 10:08 AM, June 6th (Thursday)]


It's not really a fairy tale 'till the witch is deposed and a few dragons are slain

Posts: 1787 | Registered: Oct 2007
TattoodChinaDoll
Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Something I learned through all of this is what a "why" really is. Why is not: I felt unloved, I liked the attention, I wanted something different, you were a bad husband/wife. Those are excuses. The why is: I have poor communication skills or never learned, I'm selfish, I'm NPD, I'm a fucking idiot who lacks empathy. So no, it's not a symptom of a failing marriage. It's a symptom of a failing person.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 11 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 9, 5, 3, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011


Posts: 1727 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
Josephine01
Member
Member # 38511
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

My H told her all about the problems in our marriage before he told me. When I asked why didn't you come to me. His reply? "Because it was easier to start over with someone new then to face and work on my own problems at home," he said.

How is someone supposed to fix a marriage, especially the BS, if that kind of childish idea is floating around out there?

I agree that an A is a symptom of a bad marriage, but I don't agree that the BS should shoulder half the blame. I will shoulder half the blame for the bad marriage, but none of the blame for the A.


Me, 42 BS
H, 61 WH
2 boys 19 and 15 years old
Married 24 years

Posts: 314 | Registered: Feb 2013
NoMorDeceit
Member
Member # 23547
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

No it isn't always a symptom of a failing marriage. My H was cheating on me the whole time we dated, the whole time we were engaged, the first 5+ years of our marriage...and our marriage was awesome! No problems. I thought he was perfect, he thought and still thinks I am perfect for him, perfect. He had a reason: He didn't want to be monogamous, but he did want a wife at home. We spent very little time in MC because they just didn't have anything to counsel us about. The problem really was with him and he needed to make a choice...just me or no me at all. If he needed to get that clarified in IC, that was up to him. I really think most therapists have a hard time accepting that some people are just selfish, immature and entitled...and that sometimes there isn't anything the other partner could have done to change their behavior or choices.


FBS, been through the D marathon too.
Many D Days in April 2009
Multiple affairs, LTAs, and many OWs
Reconciled... There is hope! :)


Posts: 540 | Registered: Apr 2009
Dawn58
Member
Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Oh man, does this piss me off. I was driving home one night and had Dr, Laura on the radio (will never do that again) and she was talking about how to affair proof your marriage. BS!!!! It doesn't matter what we do, the affair would have happened because they are damaged good and this is what they do. An alcoholic drinks, a cheater cheats. I thought I was in a happy marriage, he never said that he was unhappy. He told me he loved me every single day! There were never any discussions that he was not happy until after Dday. And then I think he was just trying to justify the affair.

If he was not happy, I would have moved mountains to work on the marriage.

He is a serial cheater - twice cheated on wife number two and once with me, wife number three.

HE made the decision to have the affair. HE made the decision to continue the affair. HE made he decision to meet her at a hotel. HE made the decision to deceive me for months. HE made the decision to lie to me. HE never had the balls to tell me, just started to act like a bastard. I asked him what was wrong and all he ever said to me was that "he wasn't ready to talk about it". But he was more than ready to text her while he was lying in bed next to me for two mornings and then I went into his computer and found the text messages. It was me that confronted him on the affair.

Everyone I told was shocked to hear it, everyone thought we the real thing, a solid, happy marriage.

I refuse to take ANY responsibility for the affair. If he was unhappy in the marriage, he should have come to me and talked about it, we could have gone into couple's therapy to work on the issues and then, after a few months of working, come to a decision to either end the marriage, or continue on. Then, if the decision was to end the marriage, go through the divorce, finalize it and THEN start dating. Not while you are still married.


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 479 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
Alex CR
Member
Member # 27968
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, June 6th (Thursday)

Affairs do happen for a reason...because the cheater is selfish.

They cheat because they're bored, because they want love, because they're lonely, because they couldn't resist the stars that fell out of AP's butt...whatever....they'll say any excuse they can think of but when it comes right down to it...they do it because they want to....

If they weren't selfish people, they would think about the person they made a commitment to, the children they made, the needs of the family they created. They could choose not to cheat, but they don't.

Marriage is work and sometimes it's not all roses, but grownups know that and they work things out together or they decide to call it quits....together.

Everyone can leave if things are that bad instead of using and emotionally abusing someone they supposedly loved. And cheating, IMO, is a form of abuse.

Your WS's reasoning is not just wrong, but a selfish way to justify one's actions.

And let's not forget that 'failing marriages' are big business. I may be cynical, but there are lots of people who make their living off of 'failing marriages' and I wonder if promoting that idea might just be better for business.


BS Me 61
WS Him 62
Married 33
Together 40
DD 11/16/09
The future looks good....

Posts: 1713 | Registered: Mar 2010
losingmyground
Member
Member # 36070
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I can tell you that I looked for what my part was that lead him to even consider the affair as an option.

I have worked on that part myself.

You can shoulder the blame for what lead to an empty marriage, but not her having an affair.

The simple truth is that once an affair has become an option, majority of couples are both unsatisfied. But yet it is only one that cheats.

She needs to figure out what made that option okay.

You work on what she tells you was missing in the marriage.

If one of you is unwilling to do the work, reconciliation will NOT work.


Married 13 yrs
3 kids 13, 10 & 1
I'm 34
FWH 37
Affair lasted 6 months
Ended 09/2011
Found out 06/2012
My father died during the affair
In the middle of Reconcilliation

Posts: 291 | Registered: Jul 2012
twodoves
Member
Member # 39181
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

We each are 50% responsible for the marriage, but the WS is 100% responsible for the affair.

Sometimes it can feel like a blurry line, but I assure you, it's not.


Me - BS
Him - WS (N3v3rG1v1ngUp)
Together 7 years, married for 2
He was cheating for 5 years
5 OW
D-days: 4/23/13, 4/27/13, 5/10/13
1 toddler, baby girl on the way in December

Posts: 160 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Illinois
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Obviously we must accept at least 50% of the problems in the marriage but I haven't seen one therapist website that says that the cheater must accept 100% of the affair and should have dealt with it another way.

I reject the notion that the BS must take 50% of the responsibility for problems in the M. In our case, I was trying hard to address what I perceived to be the things that were wrong, but without honesty and commitment from him, I was trying to fix what I perceived to be the problems, but I was chasing red herrings and trying to fix things that weren't mine to deal with.I'm sure there are BS's who share none of the burden, and some who deserve most or all of the responsibility. It kind of becomes irrelevant once infidelity enters the picture, since both parties have to change and adapt to the new state of things.

To put it this way, my FWH's treatment of me during his LTA could have led me to seek out validation through an affair. The marriage sucked and I was miserable to the point that I was very near divorcing him, despite his insistence that nothing was wrong. I didn't cheat because I made a commitment to work through issues in my marriage.

Ultimately the difference is that I had coping skills that he did not. I had them because I examined my options and tried to act in positive ways instead of shutting down. I like to think my FWH has learned these skills, and there is certainly evidence he has, but that is on him. I am done trying to solve other people's problems.

Sorry for the length, I just get my back up when I hear BS's getting pressure to own something that isn't theirs.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1742 | Registered: Nov 2010
TrustGone
Member
Member # 36654
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

If my marriage was failing, I had no clue. We never had problems in our marriage before he started his LTA with an old GF. She offered and he didn't turn her down, it was that simple. After the A started we then started having some problems with him complaining about not enough sex. He was treating me disrespectfully (probably the same way he treated her- groping/grabbing me) and it turned me off sexually and I told him that on numerous occasions. This was our only problem and I didn't have a clue where it was coming from and blamed it on his drinking. Our marriage is in trouble now and failing because of his LTA and alcoholism, not because of anything I am doing/have done. If we went to an MC that tried to say I was to blame for his affair, I would tell the MC how imcompetent he/she is and walk out and find another MC that gets A's. I am willing to take the blame for things that I have done that he may bring up, but no way am I taking blame because he needed his ego-kibbles.


BW-50
WH#2-51
M-9 yrs T-11 yrs
4 children-none together
DD#1-9/5/11 LTA 2yrs
DD#2-7/3/12 False R
DD#3-4/29/13 (OW broke NC)
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 2420 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Texas
stunnedin12
Member
Member # 38141
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I will take responsibility for my part in my marriage.

There is not a snowball's chance in h*ll that I will take ANY responsibility for his stupidity and pure *ss behavior with chickie.


ME - Betrayed Spouse
Him - Wayward spouse
Not sure, but trying I guess.

Posts: 477 | Registered: Jan 2013
cancuncrushed
Member
Member # 28156
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

dr phil answered this yesterday. An A is 100% the cheaters fault. A marriage can be having difficulties, but the decision to cheat is made by the cheater. And my addition, is that if its kept secret, how can it be anyone elses fault? They are alone in this decision. And trying to keep it to themself. ... Its a wrong choice made by the weaker link.


a trigger yesterday

Posts: 951 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: athome
Undefinabl3
Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I am a fWS and I am also calling out Bullshit on this theory.

arguing is a symptom, disrespect is a symptom, lacking sex is symtom, not doing nice things for each other anymore, is sysmptom.

Having an affair is a choice that one person makes because of their broken self when they can not act in a mature responsible manner. Having an affair is the choice of a weak person who dosent have the metal capcity to understand their fuckupidness and decide that they are justified in creating a life, even for a short time, with another person - based on rewritten marriage 'facts' and one sided assumptions about what their spouse is/was/knows/does/ect.


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
New online find 6/19/14 - shit

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2012
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

allatsea, I have read your story from day one and it breaks my heart.

Because an affair is not a symptom of a "sick" marriage. An affair is a symptom of a "sick" person.

I'm the Wayward, ITA with this. Had a row with my mom & sister, trying to explain that it doesn't matter if the M was great or awful--I am 100% responsible for the A. Anyone who says different is an A enabler.

I agree that a M is 50/50, but responsibility for specific M problems can be 90/10.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1234 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
didiknow
New Member
Member # 39410
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Something I learned through all of this is what a "why" really is. Why is not: I felt unloved, I liked the attention, I wanted something different, you were a bad husband/wife. Those are excuses. The why is: I have poor communication skills or never learned, I'm selfish, I'm NPD, I'm a fucking idiot who lacks empathy. So no, it's not a symptom of a failing marriage. It's a symptom of a failing person

absolutely agree

I reject the notion that the BS must take 50% of the responsibility for problems in the M

I feel the same way. If the WS is having issues with the M but not communicating them, then the WS can be responsible for much more than 50% of the M problems, as well as the 100% for the affair.


Me-BH (38)
Her-WW (27)
M Aug 29, 2010
D-day May 25, 2013
A #1 June 2012
A #2 Late 2012-May 2013
No matter what "new" information you find out, it's all just part of the same iceberg, hidden under the surface.

Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2013 | From: wa
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

The big issue here is that your best bet for an MC is someone who sees the A as the WS's responsibility and who will address the pain of the A before addressing underlying issues, and finding that type of MC is hard work.

So, as usual for me, I have some questions:

Is it possible that you're misreading the statements? That is, are you too sensitive to possible bias toward the WS?

Do you have other sources for a referral - a pastor, for example? (Just for the record, I'm not a great fan of organized religion myself, but lots of people get good support from their pastors.)

Can you cold call some Cs and interview them by phone?
*************************

For every WS who says she cheated because her H did or didn't do A, B, and/or C there are untold 100s or 1000s of wives who didn't cheat, even though their Hs do or do not do A, B, and/or C.

Also, every BH was in the same M as their WWs were, but the BHes didn't cheat.

If M problems cause As, I think we'd see a lot more MHs than we actually do.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:01 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10374 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

If M problems cause As, I think we'd see a lot more MHs than we actually do.

Exactly. You were in the same 'bad marriage' and didn't cheat, right?


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2606 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
IAmPsycho
Member
Member # 39337
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I said the exact thing to the MC. I was also in this " bad marriage" and I didn't cheat. The MC said that I would've cheated too but the opportunity presented itself to my dh first. Um, NO! I would not have cheated because I have morals.

The marriage wasn't bad. But when the MC suggested the famous line, " A are symptoms ..." My WH grabbed onto that as his new mantra.

It really stinks because I think my WH needed to see his real reasons so he could fix himself instead of blaming me.


BS (me) 43
WS (him) 48
Married 25 years
Reconciling for 12 years
DDAY 01-16-01
A with my best friend
Lots of children from 24-4 weeks old

Posts: 62 | Registered: May 2013
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I agree that a M is 50/50, but responsibility for specific M problems can be 90/10.

My grandpa, who I respected more than anyone, gave this advice in his speech at my wedding: "you will hear people tell you that marriage is a 50/50 proposition. This is wrong. Both partners must give 100% for a marriage to work."

Of course, no one can give 100% all the time, but if each party only aims for 50%, then what happens when they fail, which inevitably happens since we are all imperfect. There have been times in my pre-A M when I underperformed, and FWH had to pick up the slack. And times when he underperformed and it was up to me to make up the difference. Our M worked pretty well as long as we both had that mindset. It compensated for a lot of FOO issues, but I think we could have dealt with those if FWH had wanted to.

Not to pick on your words, 20wrongs, but I love my grandpa's attitude toward M and what he said means so much more to me than it used to.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1742 | Registered: Nov 2010
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 3:30 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

The MC said that I would've cheated too but the opportunity presented itself to my dh first.

Try again.

This might fly if all affairs were opportunistic, but so many start with people trolling for attention: Craigslist, AFF, AM. Even FWH, who I think didn't go looking to cheat, had to be open to receiving external validation. I wasn't. Check that. I was desperate to feel loved, but I was not willing to compromise my values to get that.

I think some MCs are idiots.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1742 | Registered: Nov 2010
libertyrocks
Member
Member # 38924
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Rivenheart, nicely said.

It could even be that the BS was 95% responsible for the M problems. But that only justifies D, not an A.

I wish he would have D me instead of dragging me through hell...Now he wants me back, begs for me. Get that! Great.

If you read my profile, you could clearly see how "I" should have been the one to cheat!!! But, I didn't. I "fixed" myself when we got married with IC. I repeatedly asked him to go for 6 years, now he tells our MC he should've gone back then.

[This message edited by libertyrocks at 4:28 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]


Me-BW 36. STBXH-35,Recovering Alcoholic, M6yrs T13. Boys 2 & 4 1/2.
DDay #1 Nov,2012. 1 1/2 year false R & TT. 10 OW PA's 1LTA (W lied to) 3 years.
S Nov, 2013 again Jan,2014
Filed for D Feb,2014.

Posts: 962 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: So Cal, baby. :)
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

The A was 100% him. But we were not committed to our marriage or being kind to ourselves pre-A. Was it 50/50? 40/60? 30/70?
I don't know.

I do know that we created space between us. That space made it far easier for someone else to squeeze in.

We are now 100% committed to making this work. No space.

Your Grandpa was right cdmommy.

[This message edited by LA44 at 7:20 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2457 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 7:22 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

First, marriages aren't 50-50. They're 100-100. Sure, we can't all give it 100 percent all the time--sometimes one partner carries more than the other. And sometimes, the other partner shoulders more.

And furthermore, it may be that one partner is responsible for all, none, or some of the marital problems. So no, you don't have to shoulder 50 percent of the responsibility for the marriage. You're responsible for your contributions only.

As for the affair, that's 100 percent on the cheater.

Affairs are a symptom. They're a symptom of an INDIVIDUAL'S emptiness, unhappiness, whatever.

There are a thousand---a million!---alternatives to infidelity.

Every. Single. Wayward. has the ability to make a better choice.

Every.Single.Wayward has the ability to effect positive changes in his/her life and marriage. Choosing perhaps the single most traumatic behavior is not a "symptom" of anything other than self- and generally-destructive failure of impulse control.

Affairs are a symptom of a failing human being. Unfortunately, the personal failure has far-reaching implications, affecting not just the individual but the partner, children, family, social network, everything.

So no, I don't believe an affair is a symptom of a failing marriage.

It think it's a ticket on a fast train to killing a marriage, though. Because that's always the outcome. Always. Fortunately, couple may reconcile--and a new marriage can be built in its place.


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8844 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I think the answer to this becomes much more obvious when we remember what is really the biggest issue of an affair. It's not that partner just finds an interest in another person. It's that that partner does it without telling the other partner. It's both the untold breaking of an agreement and the unfairness of a double standard (because the BS is not advised and is therefore still living within the boundaries of the agreement.)

Why should anyone shoulder ANY responsibility for a partner that both breaks an agreement and expects you not to? IMO, *this* is the most important question that a BS needs to demand their WS answer.


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Another wayward here callimg bullshit. To an outside observer, my H and I had a good, solid M. We got along great, very seldomly arguing and we complimented each others strengths and weaknesses. BUT I was the one who cheated, not my H. He had opportunity, he just didn't take it. I had opportunity, I *did* take it. It was *my* issues, *my* poor coping skills that led me to making the choice to cheat. I've told other, newer WS here that we had three choices: communicate what we perceived the problem(s) were and work to fix it, get a D OR have an A. Every last one of us chose door #3: have an A. By our screwed up logic, having the A was the best/easiest solution.

I don't assign any blame for my choice to anyone but myself. It's entitely my shit to own

[This message edited by Clarrissa at 7:55 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
RockyMtn
Member
Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Honestly, if one partner is a cheater...then I'd argue the likelihood is that they were "more" responsible for any issues in the marriage. You don't go from being a stand-up partner one day to a cheater the next. Most likely, in the interim, that cheater was causing problems in the marriage. For many, the WS was already selfish, failing to pitch in, taking their spouse for granted, and so on. In other cases the WS was the "doer" and was harboring resentments for that.

My point is that whatever caused them to cheat (within themselves) - whether that was selfishness or resentment or whatever - they were already bringing that crap into the marriage beforehand.

I dunno, that's my theory, or at least it is true in my case. So I really bristle at "pre-A problems are 50/50."


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 8:49 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

I recently read Intimacy after Infidelity, and , while there were some good points, it pissed me off because it was dogmatic about claiming that every affair was about this or that unmet need or happened at certain specific points in a relationship. Well, about the only need I didn't meet for my fWH was reenacting his CSA! I could not have tried harder to reach him, support him, love him. His LTA was about his unresolved issues that occurred long before I met him.

It pisses me off too that my H's coworkers and society in general assume I wasn't meeting his needs. Well he was always putting less into the M than I was, yet I never considered cheating. I had a big barrier up around me with other men, he had a "well, if you ask nice and don't expect anything in return what the fuck sign" on him.

I take no responsibility for the A or the "problems" of which I was unaware. But I am willing to give it my all in R as long as my fWH is 100% committed.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1761 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 8:51 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

And I agree with Rocky Mtn!



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1761 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
ok4now
Member
Member # 35896
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

Hello,

In my situation my WS is a PA that refused to communicate. IC helped him see his destructive behavior. He has self esteem and major FOO issues. He flees from difficult situations and tries to replace people. He has unreasonable expectations and holds on to disappointments without communicating them. This was a recipe for disaster.

I also do not think I am perfect and I had my own issues that needed worked on but they are minimal in comparison. This really doesn't make me a better person but I pretty much had a great childhood and was able to see healthy relationships and interactions during my whole life. IC made me be more empathetic to my WS. It didn't excuse his behavior but I better understand where he was coming from.

We are a work in progress but I consider us in a successful R. I honestly believe that my WS would have acted this way eventually with anybody he married. No one would have been good enough.

So bottom line is I do not shoulder any of the responsibility for my WS's EA.


BS - 39 (me)
WS - 33
DD - 6
D Day - 6/2/11 EA (would have been a PA if the OW was game)
"I'm not going to be the person I am expected to be anymore"
Blue de Chanel Commercial

Posts: 121 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Maryland
windowsnotwalls
Member
Member # 36983
Default  Posted: 9:32 PM, June 6th (Thursday)

His multiple As were no more my responsibility than my mean hateful words that followed were his. I didn't understand that for a long time. I felt it my "right" at times to lash out at him. I'd say, "WHY am I like this??? I wasn't always! You made me this way!" Well, that wasn't true. My anger was mine to deal with, not reason to harm him also. My reactions were mine to own. I needed to take the courageous step back and detach to be able to figure out some internal work that needed done within me. Likewise, the As were not my fault. They were his decisions, his actions to own. No matter what our problems were, they were never gonna be solved with his sleeping with other women, and while I'm not exactly an ashleymadison guru, I'm pretty sure there's no forum there titled "How can I show my partner I'm in love with them?", so I can't see how online dating/affair sites would have been the solution to our problems either. His choices, stupid choices, and his to own.


"She stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way, she adjusted her sails" (Elizabeth Edwards).
http://youtu.be/62oby83NtGw
Forever Conditionally Detached

Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Pittsburgh, PA
LittleRussian
New Member
Member # 36658
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, June 7th (Friday)

No, I was in the same marriage & I didn't cheat


Me - mid 40s
Him WH - slightly younger
1 teenager
2 preteens (and don't I know it!)

Posts: 16 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: UK
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 6:47 AM, June 7th (Friday)

Does the cheater have a point when they say that I had no choice but to have an affair?
I think the point would be that they are still full of shit and can't possibly accept responsibility for their own actions.

Regarding bad marriages; Affairs are not symptoms, affairs are causes (one of many). Its not semantics its mindset. Anyone on opposite sides of that fence are of differing moral compass and would likely struggle with R.

I'd find a different MC because statements like that are a symptom of a failing MC credential system.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, June 7th (Friday)

joeboo is right - this is what MCs learn in school or something. the general philosophy is just...wrong.
MC training should involve a semester hanging out here to see what it's really like.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5276 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, June 7th (Friday)

it pissed me off because it was dogmatic about claiming that every affair was about this or that unmet need

In a sense this could be at least somewhat true - the WS has some (perceived?) 'need' that they don't know how to fulfill. Where this argument goes bad is the implicit (and sometimes explicit) assumption that it is the (faithful) spouse that is supposed to satisfy this need.

These needs might be just due to a basic incompatibility, but often seem to be holes in the WS that they don't know how to fill (at least not in any healthy way), aspects of their brokenness that they don't know how to fix. It is not the duty of the marriage partner to fill up the holes, it is the duty of the individual to become healthy, to learn the skills and acquire the tools that they lack, to confront their issues, their baggage, and (learn to) deal with it in a healthy way.

So yes, I do think there are needs (or 'needs') that are unmet in many, perhaps most, WS. But the spouse not satisfying them is NOT the cause of the A, is NOT the reason for the A, it's an EXCUSE for the A. The CAUSE of the A is that the WS has not dealt with their own issues, and chooses instead to act out in a decidedly hurtful and unhealthy way.

Laying these 'unmeet needs' at the feet of the faithful partner is BLAMING THE VICTIM. It is in NO WAY the fault of the BS, neither the brokenness of the WS nor their choice to cheat, to betray in an attempt to fill whatever unmet needs or wants they feel that they have.


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2606 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, June 7th (Friday)

I've consulted a number of mental health professionals during this oh-so-fun journey, and not a single one has implied in any way that this is my fault. I classify cheating as a form of dysfunctional coping - some folks become addicted to gaming, some develop an ED, some spend time in the garage... Would any of those things be blamed on the spouse?

I'm lucky in the sense that my WH has never once said this was my fault and has never once implied that I was anything other than a loving, in fact ADORING, wife to him. (If anything, too much so.)

And, regarding that idiotic comment re opportunity... Early in our marriage, I worked daily and closely with someone to whom I was really, really physically attracted to. I mean, really. And he was attracted to me, too. You can tell these things. I developed techniques for dealing with this. It was not easy. But I knew that I could not live with myself if I had done anything about it. I set boundaries. Worked with this guy for 3 years, and had continued contact with him through our extended social network for years after. Luckily this was in the UK before we moved back to the States, otherwise he would have been a prime contender for an RA... I digress.

I think the prevalence of the "it's the marriage" in our culture is due to a lot of things. We like to think that Love Conquers All, so that love can heal another's demons. I find Coldplay's Fix You song creepy for this very reason. People have wildly unrealistic ideas of marriage, and too much burden is placed on marriages, IMO because the larger social fabric is so weak.

That's my pontificating for the day...


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1061 | Registered: Aug 2012
Laura28
Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, June 7th (Friday)

SI Rule Number 1:

It is NEVER the BS's fault. never ever.


Married 32yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 60yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA 16+ years).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2754 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
keptmyword
Member
Member # 35526
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, June 7th (Friday)

why are the websites for counselling and lawyers full of statements about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Why isn't our belief the most commonly held view out there in the real world?

Because marriage counselors and lawyers are a business first. Offering broken and dysfunctional people easy excuses for money can be very, very lucrative.


I Divorced Her.

Posts: 363 | Registered: May 2012
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, June 7th (Friday)

Well, about the only need I didn't meet for my fWH was reenacting his CSA! I could not have tried harder to reach him, support him, love him. His LTA was about his unresolved issues that occurred long before I met him.

I second this ^^^ from catlover50. Broken people tend to reenact the crap that made them that way. My WH let OW manipulate, threaten and control him. Was I supposed to meet that sick need?


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
HopeImOverIt
Member
Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, June 7th (Friday)

My NewBeginning SO had an interesting take on it. He says, yes the marriage must have been "bad" since any relationship where one partner is deceiving the other is by definition not healthy.

As others have pointed out on this thread, the BH might have BELIEVED the marriage was good. But they did not know the truth about what was going on.

As for why so many MC try to imply the BS deserves part of the blame? My opinion is that many of them want to appear "fair" and as if they are not taking "sides". Also they want to keep the WS coming back to the counseling. The MC may believe the WS won't come back for a second appointment if at the first one the MC says "It's all your fault."

In many cases the WS has a list of complaints about the BS - whether valid or not. The MC may believe that getting the BS to acknowledge these complaints as legitmiate will help persuade the WS to come back.

I don't think any good comes of this line of thinking ultimately, because it implies that the BS has power over whether the WS cheats or not. The reality is that we don't.

I think the advice often given in this group to wait on MC until the WS is remorseful is spot on!


Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
Eudaimonia
Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, June 8th (Saturday)

Just wanted to say thank you for this topic. I printed it out. This is why I still occasionally lurk S.I.


I love you guys!


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
IAmPsycho
Member
Member # 39337
Default  Posted: 10:40 PM, June 8th (Saturday)

Hopeimoverit,
That was an A+ post. Good information. I agree that the counselors can see which person is to blame, but they have to act fair.


BS (me) 43
WS (him) 48
Married 25 years
Reconciling for 12 years
DDAY 01-16-01
A with my best friend
Lots of children from 24-4 weeks old

Posts: 62 | Registered: May 2013
SBB
Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 12:40 AM, June 9th (Sunday)

IMO affairs are a symptom of a failed human being - the WS.

I had the shittest husband on the planet for 5 long years. You could not have found an unhappier wife. Of course I pretended it wasn't really as bad as it felt and I tried to make the best of it - focus on the good.

I still didn't cheat. Not in word, thought or deed. I honoured myself and my M.


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
BeyondBreaking
Member
Member # 38020
Default  Posted: 3:15 AM, June 9th (Sunday)

You are NOT responsible for your spouses choice to have an affair.

The marriage might have been completely messed up- or not. I'm sure the marriage wasn't perfect for you either. I'm sure there were things pre-affair that you were frustrated with and not happy about.

I was our spouses job to communicate to is what they were so unhappy with. I doubt Very many of our spouses said, "hey, I'm u happy here, lets talk," or even, "hey, I am tempted to have an affair and here is why." They didn't do that.

Blaming a spouse for an affair is like if I try to sue work for my weight gain. Yeah, work is stressful, but if I decide to deal with it by stuffing my face, that is my own bad choice. Work ain't gonna pay for my heart attack.

So yes, you were 50% responsible for the state of the marriage before the affair. However, do note that many many MANY times, the "problems" that the WS perceives are just that- perceptions that are totally off base, one sided, and foggy (as the person was in a fog and a different mindset). Most classic example, when DD's dad cheated, he tried to blame me because I didn't want to have sex. He is not wrong- we did go through a 2 month dry spell at one point- I turned him down when he asked and he didn't get to really touch me at all. Now, when he brought that up in therapy later, he failed to mention that this time period was right after the birth of our child and I physically couldn't have sex after my c-section. So while, yes, I had my own part in how the relationship was going, his perspective was very one sided and really had more to do with his own insecurities than anything I was actually doing wrong. And then his choice to cheat? 100% his fault, not mine. He could have chosen to talk to me. He could have chosen to do a lot of other things to blow off steam or frustratin: gone to counseling then, gone to the gym, talked to a friend or family, etc... Him choosing to go bang a whore was completely on him.

I would NEVER continue to see a counselor who suggested anything otherwise.


I have been cheated on by 3 different men, and I have more DDays than anyone ever should. I am here, just trying to pickup the pieces.

At least the current man "only" cyber-cheated.

"Love means never having to say you're sorry."


Posts: 840 | Registered: Jan 2013
Itstoohard
Member
Member # 37629
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, June 9th (Sunday)

I agree with Rocky Mtn!
Also as its been said many times over - both people were in this "bad M" and only one cheated. Makes me wonder if there are M's where both people were unhappy and both cheated? If MC philosophy is correct, that should happen often, no?


BS 64
fWH 64
PA 22 yrs ago
Started as EA for 2 yrs then ONS CORRECTION Started as an EA for 8 years
Trustismyissue

Posts: 180 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: US
Topic Posts: 67