SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
General
User Topic: Wayward Thinking or Not? Waywards Please Weigh In
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, June 10th (Monday)

This is actually kind of a t/j from another thread about blaming the AP more than your WS.

Many in that thread said they don't blame the AP at all. Afterall, the AP didn't make any vows or promises to us, our WS's did. That they may hate the AP but they don't blame the AP.

I fall squarely in the both the WS and AP are 100% responsible for their actions and the affair camp. I don't blame the OW more in our situation but equally. It couldn't have happened if they both didn't participate. I also believe that adultery is just wrong. Period.

It really irritates me when I hear/read that phrase "the AP didn't make vows or promises to me". The phrase irritates me, not the poster. Since I have been a member of SI I have read many threads about that subject and it always just irritated me. I have finally figured out why.

A long, long time ago before I was married (newly engaged, actually) I was in my early 20's and a girlfriend and I were planning a road trip. We didn't have a lot of money and it was going to be from Minnesota to Florida and back. My friend had a co-worker that wanted to join us. She was about 30 years old and single. I said sure as that would be another person to share expenses.

Turns out, this friend of my friend was an OW. The OW talked about her MOM a lot. She told us "I am not doing anything wrong. I am single, he is the one that is married. I didn't make any promises or take any vows!" She wouldn't tell us who he was, but he was older in his 40's. A local businessman. Did I mention we lived in a very small rural community?

I never warmed up to this OW. Besides being uncomfortable with her being an OW, I just didn't much care for her personality. But, she was okay. Would never be a good friend of mine. However, since she was a friend of my good friend I did have some association with her even after the road trip. We finally did find out who she was having a LTA with and it was the husband of a good friend of my future MIL. A women that I did know and liked very much. She was warm, funny and kind. I never told her about the affair. They are still married to this day and they are in their 70's now. I have no idea what happened to the OW as I am not in touch with my former good friend anymore, either.

Anyway, it never sat right with me when the OW told us "I am not doing anything wrong. I am single, he is the one that is married. I didn't make any promises or take any vows!" I feel this is very typical wayward thinking. A way to justify and rationalize what they know is just morally wrong.

Now, my question is, when a BS makes this statement do you feel that is wayward thinking? I feel it is, but of course, I can be wrong. I am wrong about many things, so this wouldn't be shocking to me.

There is a certain wayward here that I respect and admire a lot. She is often pointing out to us where many BS's (including me) have wayward thinking. I have become more aware of that. I try to be vigilant in my thinking. Afterall, I can't expect something from my FWH if I am not willing to do the same.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
WhatsRight
Member
Member # 35417
Default  Posted: 7:44 AM, June 10th (Monday)

My response is this...

The OW / OM is responsible to himself / herself. In my opinion, they betrayed a moral code (which they may or may not subscribe to).

The WS, however is responsible to himself, but ALSO TO YOU.

That's the difference to me.

My husband was with a prostitute. Sure I was repulsed by the thought of her (and her naked picture that I had) but I didn't have a relationship with her. She did not speak vows in the presence of God to me - she did not owe me loyalty or faithfulness.

But he did.

JMHO


"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy


Posts: 1858 | Registered: Apr 2012
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, June 10th (Monday)

I do think it's wayward thinking.

It's that part of society that says if you're not actively involved, you're not in the wrong. Like the people recording rapes on their cell phones but not helping the victim. They did nothing wrong, they didn't rape her.

They sure as hell are part of the victimization. Of taking part in what's wrong by NOT doing what's right. In the case of the OP it's simply saying the word NO.

A single OW can tell herself she's doing nothing wrong. I will say I felt violated when I discovered that MrH would have sex with her then me on the same day. She knew who his sexual partners were, I did not. I thought I was in a monogamous relationship. She knowingly took that from me and risked my well being for her selfishness.

Like you, I get irritated when a BS says the OP isn't to blame. That case can be made about people who know but don't tell I suppose. But the OP actively participates in infidelity.

If I started smacking my kids around and a friend saw it and joined in. Would she be blameless because they aren't her kids? If someone was filching money from a business they owned, would an employee not be at fault if they did the same?

ETA- when it comes to the vows, perhaps the OP is 100% free of that violation. When it comes to the A...100% responsible for their choices and participation in it. If they didn't think it was wrong, they wouldn't participate in hiding the A (and usually taking it further underground after d-day).

[This message edited by Holly-Isis at 7:59 AM, June 10th (Monday)]


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11010 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
stillhere09
Member
Member # 24924
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, June 10th (Monday)


I believe in the phrase, "It takes a village to raise a child." Along the same lines, it takes a village to nurture a marriage.

I don't know if you will find that one easy to follow, so I'll elaborate a bit.

Every member of the village has the best interest of the child at heart. They all have a responsibility to correct him kindly when they see that his behavior or way of thinking is in error.

Likewise, every member of the village (society) should have the best interest of the marriages of others in the village at heart. When they see a spouse who is thinking along wayward lines, it is their responsibility to the human race to correct the error of the person's thinking. In so doing, they have helped a marriage. Thus, the AP is in serious wrong to encourage the wrong rather than help guide their fellow man along the road of loyalty.

So yes, I think the AP is in the wrong as much as the WS. They may not have made a vow to you, the BS, but they should go by a decent moral code of their own to help rather than harm their fellow man.

They may not be the parent of a drowning child, but would they pass up a drowning child or lend a helping hand? If their fellow man is drowning emotionally, they should lend a helping hand ("You should talk to a professional if your M is in trouble."), not push the drowning person all the way under.

Sorry - I'm not a wayward, so perhaps I shouldn't have weighed in.


Me-50 BW
Him-55,STBXWH

Walk a Mile In My Shoes
Married 14 yrs. Now Separated & in NC
2 grown DD's - his from previous M
4 grown kids (2DS, 2DD) mine from previous M


Posts: 3020 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Ohio
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, June 10th (Monday)

Of course you should weigh in stillhere09. And I appreciate your thoughts and I agree.

Thanks also Holly and WhatsRight. I agree with you Holly.

WhatsRight, I appreciate your point of view, but you didn't answer my question. Is it wayward thinking or not in your opinion? I am assuming you mean it isn't wayward thinking but you didn't exactly say that.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, June 10th (Monday)

Many in that thread said they don't blame the AP at all. Afterall, the AP didn't make any vows or promises to us, our WS's did. That they may hate the AP but they don't blame the AP.

In my mind there are many different kinds of blame. In the realm of my FWH's A, there are two. There is a sort of blanket moral judgment: affairs are wrong, therefore both willing affair partners are wrong in the exact same way, to the same degree. And then there is the moral judgment I have as a wife, as part of a two-person marriage: my husband, my committed partner, violated our marriage, and he is solely and completely responsible for the violation of our marriage.

So while I fully agree that the OP is to blame in a moral, human way, when it comes to looking at the two person marriage I'm part of, only the two of us have the power to violate it. The OW isn't part of our intimate circle of two, formed by our vows, and so as far as our intimate marriage goes, only me or my H could form those vows, and only me or my H can break those vows.

I think a lot of the debate stems from shifting the focus from "is the OP to blame in a human sense" to "is the OP to blame in a marital sense". In the human, moral sense of course the OP is to blame, since they are part of the human and moral relationship we all share, and violated a basic code that we all share, whether they acknowledge that code for their own convenience or not. They did something wrong as a human being, in the same exact way our WS did something wrong as a human being. And as a human being, I am equally angry and hurt by both my WS and the OP. In the marital sense the OP don't even figure into the equation, since it is an equation of only two parts. In the marital sense, the OP doesn't even exist.

For me, years out, the fact that the OW does not share in my marital equation is a huge source of comfort and security. In the earlier days when I was so intent on distributing my anger and blame, I did cast out that blame into her. But as I focused more on the intimate space of my marriage between two people, I took so much comfort in knowing that we were the heart and soul, and we alone were responsible for the health of the heart and soul. Despite challenges from the outside, it was our place to tend and care for.

My priorities as far as being a wife, a spouse, mean that I put my marriage first before outside relationships. For better or worse. In good times that means I am the recipient of that special status with my husband. He puts us first. I put us first. And we reap the rewards of that. In bad times it means that I shoulder the blame to insults I have inflicted upon our marriage. And my husband does the same. It is still the same special status that only takes into account two people. Our vows say "for better or worse" and that doesn't mean, to me, that I only stay with my husband in good and bad times. It also means that I accept the special status of primary ownership of the marital "better" and the marital "worse". My husband does the same. The affair was a marital "worse", and in the intimate realm of our marriage my husband accepts his special status of primary ownership of the insult he inflicted upon our marriage. Nothing outside our relationship is a consideration in that - just the same as nothing outside of our relationship is a consideration in our celebration of our marriage's "better" times.

And I've found that as time goes on in our marriage, that relationship of two people is the one that matters about 1000x more than the relationship between all of humanity, when it comes to this subject.


Posts: 3183 | Registered: Mar 2005
crossroads2010
Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, June 10th (Monday)

Almost 4 years ago, on dday, I found out the following:

My H of almost 35 years was having an A with an old gf he had an intense relationship with when he was 17...we started dating three years late and I NEVER knew about her. I also found out that he had had an A with her for several weeks about 20 years before when our first child was a toddler. After the shock wore off some and I was able to feel/think again, I had an intense hatred for this woman I never knew...as I found out what I could from fb and her texts to him etc...I realized she was pretty pathetic, but knew exactly what she was doing...she was single but in a relationship and had been married several times before and one marriage lasted about 20 years...so in the scope of what most married people consider taboo, she is not a good person, but is one of those who tries to portay herself as rightious and moral and giving to others (via fb page. She is manipulative.

I can't really hate my H...he was my soulmate for so many years and I see the good in him and well as the bad...I see the good man trying to be good...to be a good husband, father and grandfather. I am not so naive as to think that at least half of his mostivation to do right comes from his desire to avoid pain and guilt...in other words, it is still about him. I don't think he intentionally tried to hurt me, but that he seems to think that it is my probelm to get over it and I gueass it really is.

I try not to be concerned about her...she is insignificant.


Posts: 573 | Registered: Nov 2010
MrsDoubtfire
Member
Member # 24786
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, June 10th (Monday)

It really irritates me when I hear/read that phrase "the AP didn't make vows or promises to me". The phrase irritates me, not the poster. Since I have been a member of SI I have read many threads about that subject and it always just irritated me

Now, my question is, when a BS makes this statement do you feel that is wayward thinking?


Ooh. Deep. FWIW- my personal opinion is that the OP didn't break any vow to me but they sure didn't feel guilty helping someone else break a sacred vow so that makes them equally culpable if they know their AP is M.

When a BS states this fact I guess they are minimising the OP's responsibility but is that wayward thinking? I'm genuinely unsure how to respond as the honest answer is I could say yes and no

Waiting for others' input as I'm really interested in the answers you'll get Sister.


BS(Me) FWH(Him) DDay 05.09
A went underground. True R 02.10
I won't let another woman reap the benefit of enjoying the man my H has now become†

Posts: 1563 | Registered: Jul 2009
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, June 10th (Monday)

when a BS makes this statement do you feel that is wayward thinking?

I can't answer that question, but it's another popular response in that thread that seems more like wayward thinking. Paraphrasing: The OW was predatory, she took advantage of H when he was in a vulnerable state. I blame OW much more than I blame H.

When I told my devout Christian mother about my As, her reaction stunned me. She said: "These things happen. Every M has problems." She was excusing me, and blame shifting! Believing your WS was powerless to resist an outside temptation is similar. It may be comforting to shift blame away from your loved one, but those reactions are enabling toward wayward behavior.

My decision to cheat was not caused by "marriage problems," or a specific AP. I sought out As because (in part) I am a CSA survivor, with deep unresolved damage. I was hurt during my developing years, repressed those intense feelings and memories--and under extreme stress they resurfaced with a vengeance. Fortunately BH agreed to try to R, and I'm looking for a therapist. My point is: if I blamed the As on my M or the AP, I'd be less likely to seek help.

the AP is in serious wrong to encourage the wrong rather than help guide their fellow man along the road of loyalty

Agreed. It takes two to tango, and I feel ashamed (and responsible) for my part in damaging the OBS's marriage. I'm certain my APs would've strayed anyway, with someone else, but at least then I'd have zero responsibility.

P.S. SisterMilkshake, I'm from Mille Lacs County.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1046 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
itainteasy
Member
Member # 31094
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, June 10th (Monday)

The only time I feel an affair partner is not to blame is if they truly do not know their "significant other" is married. (my own experience colors that, I know)

Otherwise, as a person, you know that married people are off limits for romantic relationships.

Any person who can see that ring on the finger (or in the case of people who don't wear rings--know they're married another way) and OVERRIDES that in the same instant is violating the moral code that they should hold themselves to.

I think when you know someone is married, and you enter into a relationship with them anyway, regardless of who pursued who, you are equally responsible for the hurt and destruction you bring to the innocent party- The BS and/or children.

I have seen posters say that the affair wouldn't have started if their spouse had said "NO!" or if their spouse wasn't looking for it. And that's true. But it's also true that the other person can say "NO!"


Posts: 3311 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: NWPA
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, June 10th (Monday)

I think that as human beings we are responsible to and for each other at some level.

Many are taught to treat others as you would have them treat you. This teaching sits on that foundation of being responsible to each other. We owe each other a basic level of courtesy. It is that courtesy that makes civilization and eventually creates nations.

We make no promises that say we ill not steal from others or murder them. Sure these things happen. But they are wrong not because of the law and they are not right because we made no overt promise not to do these things. These things are wrong because they violate that core morality.

Just my (probably wrong) thoughts on this.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3381 | Registered: Sep 2007
stillhere09
Member
Member # 24924
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, June 10th (Monday)


Excellent, Razor!


Me-50 BW
Him-55,STBXWH

Walk a Mile In My Shoes
Married 14 yrs. Now Separated & in NC
2 grown DD's - his from previous M
4 grown kids (2DS, 2DD) mine from previous M


Posts: 3020 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Ohio
keeponkeepingon
Member
Member # 32935
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, June 10th (Monday)

Yes, I know that MrKOKO was the one who was married to me. I have never met the out of state TicK. He is ultimately the one that should have said no but he did not. When she kissed him, he responded.

The TicK knew about me. MrKOKO had his wedding ring on for the beginning of the A. He began to take it off when he would met up with her as the A continued.

When discussing this topic with MrKOKO, he told me that he was the one to blame. I agree. One things that he told me was the she was a cheerleader in the continuing of the A and the ultimate falling apart of our family. She encouraged him the whole time to dump me and DS and start a "new family" with her and her son.


"I know you and you know me and I know you can see. So help me get my way back to you"

Posts: 1005 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: On the corner of Grey St at the end of the world
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, June 10th (Monday)

I agree Sister that "they didn't make me a vow" is wayward thinking.

The burglar who broke in to my house and stole my TV didn't make me any vows or promises not to, but what he did is still wrong.

I actually liken the OW to the anonymous online bully who torments some poor kid. The kid has done nothing wrong. Yet is being tormented and having their life destroyed by this anonymous bully simply because they can.

MOW bullied me and I didn't even know she existed. She encouraged WH to do and say nasty things to me, then would call him to hear the results. THEY PLOTTED the things he would do. They actually PLANNED for him to pick fights. And every time she was excited to hear what happened.

One time WH came home from a business trip, he was skyping with her at the airport while waiting for his luggage. She started telling him that jospehine85 would never give him the love and attention when he got home that she would. Cause Jospehine85 was an ice cold bitch. So what did he do? He got home and kicked the door open, slammed it shut, threw a bag he was carrying, slammed his suitcase into a wall, kicked anything within legs reach as hard as he could, came in to the room glaring at me and DS and almost knocked DD to the ground when she came around a corner and tried to hug him.

He described it to MOW as "I got home and there was no hello, no hug, no kiss."

Her reply, "Unbelievable. What the fuck is wrong with her? I would never do that to you."

Yeah, that is bullying by both of them. That was one of their spontaneous moments. Don't even want to tell you about the planned ones.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jun 2012
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, June 10th (Monday)

I agree it's wayward thinking. If the OW or OM knows that their "partner" is married or otherwise committed, they're equally responsible. They made the choices too. Also, we've all got a responsibility not to interfere in each others' marriages or committed relationships. Why else would these things be made public and official?

I fall squarely in the both the WS and AP are 100% responsible for their actions and the affair camp. I don't blame the OW more in our situation but equally. It couldn't have happened if they both didn't participate. I also believe that adultery is just wrong. Period.

Yes, this exactly.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
"Not my monkeys. Not my circus." ~Polish proverb (<~~~ as a codependent person, this comes in handy sometimes!)

Posts: 3883 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
blessedbyluck
New Member
Member # 37525
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, June 10th (Monday)

I am a fww. I would be telling a lie if i said i never at least down deep thought i was no obligated to my mm wife since i was not married to him. That was during my affair and shortly after. Now 10 years later i think yes i was just as responsible for my affair as he was in spite of the fact that he initiated it i knew he was married. I feel guilty for my part in it and his wife has every right to blame me as much as she does him. I was lucky that the worst she did to me was call me and lay me out but i desrved a lot worse then she gave me. It is just as much your h ow fault as it is his and you have that right to be iritated.


Me: fww 39
Him: bh 50
together 19 years
married 17 years
dday 8/2003
two beautiful kiddos

Posts: 50 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: blessedbyluck
copingdaily
Member
Member # 34713
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, June 10th (Monday)

they are both at fault. A person who is your "friend" or cares about you at all, wouldnt be part of the destruction of a marriage and family. The WS has more fault but both at fault none the less.


Treat others as you want to be treated

Posts: 296 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Texas
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, June 10th (Monday)

"I am not doing anything wrong. I am single, he is the one that is married. I didn't make any promises or take any vows!"

I can't really get into if it is wayward thinking or not, but I do dispute the facts asserted in the statement.

There are some pretty specific criteria that must be met in order for a marriage to be recognized by the state (government). You need to get a license, you have to fill out the forms to register the marriage, they have to be signed by the couple and witnesses, it has to be officiated over by someone authorized to do so by the state. The state is heavily involved in creating the marriage and it's vows. The reason for the state to be involved is to act in a legal capacity of agency on behalf of the population. Each jurisdiction has it's own procedures for doing so, but each jurisdiction also recognizes marriages performed in other jurisdictions.

Therefore, unless the single AP comes from some barbaric place that does not recognize marriage, their government has made these vows on their behalf. Regardless of how the AP feels about the marriage, they are as legitimate and binding as any other actions of the government. If we are all bound by government actions like declarations of war (try ignoring one of those at your peril), then it is a trivial matter to accept the recognition of a marriage and all that it implies. How hard is it to not fuck one person? Pretty sure there are a few billion people out there that I have not fucked. Of course I don't get out much.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
libertyrocks
Member
Member # 38924
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, June 10th (Monday)

You're so very right my sister.

People know what's right and what's wrong, when they have to make up excuses for their behavior and blame someone else. Even when THEY know it's wrong, they always find a way to justify their selfishness.

I've had other men try to talk to me when I was a young adult. I also KNEW some of them were married. I stood away. Why? Because I know right from wrong and I knew exactly what those men wanted...


Me-BW 36. STBXH-35,alcoholic, M6yrs T13. DS 2 DS 4 1/2.
DDay #1 Nov,2012. 1 1/2 year false R & TT. 10 OW PA's 1LTA (W lied to) 3 years.
S Nov, 2013 again Jan,2014
Filed for D Feb,2014. He's going to cheat again. But not on me.

Posts: 939 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: So Cal, baby. :)
crossroads2010
Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, June 10th (Monday)

I honestly don't know if I had met up with someone in my 20's or even 5 years ago, I would have given much thought to their situation...now I would probably in some way let them know what I think and point out what they are doing to their BS.

A few weeks after my dday, I was at my first IC session with a male IC I only saw a few times...he listened to my story and as I related everything my H had done and sid and simply pointed out the obvious to me...did my H make the effort to look her up and contact her...to drive to her house...take her out, etc. etc? Did she not respond to him...open the door...did he force her?

They both made an ongoing decision to do what most consider wrong...but she is a stranger to me and never mattered. He bacame a stranger to me and it mattered. I don't blame him more though...I think she hurt someone also.


Posts: 573 | Registered: Nov 2010
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, June 10th (Monday)

You know, I think every single poster here on either side of the fence, not currently in the fog, is in complete agreement that adultery is completely wrong and immoral. And I also think it can be really narrow and limiting to consider "blame" to be defined as: was X person in the wrong? We all already agree that the OP was wrong. We all already agree that the WS was wrong.

So why not look more closely at the issue rather than all posting about how much we agree that the OP was absolutely wrong? Of course they were. That doesn't address the "blame" issue completely though, so clearly there's more to it than just being wrong.

It really irritates me when I hear/read that phrase "the AP didn't make vows or promises to me".

I think it's a mischaracterization to make this phrase sound as if it's absolving the OP for responsibility for the A. I do not believe that the posters who write this are saying the OP was not wrong, was not bad, was not responsible for their actions. Again - pretty sure we ALL agree that they are.

Speaking for myself, that phrase is talking more about the MARRIAGE than the affair. Obviously the "affair partners" - meaning our WS and the OP - are by definition responsible for the affair. But when we're discussing VOWS, we're discussing marriage. And the OP isn't part of our marriage, therefore I think it would be respectful to acknowledge that it can be appropriate, healing and beneficial to place responsibility on our spouse for things that can only truly be changed by the two people within our marriage.

I recognize that really the R forum is about just that - looking into the marriage and rebuilding, without the endless energy focusing on the OP can sap from that pursuit. And that there's a great time and place for heaping venting and anger on the OP if that's how we're feeling, and General is certainly perfect for that. I'm not knocking it. I needed that too.

But I would not characterize addressing marital issues between only the two people in the marriage as "wayward thinking" in the slightest. And I'm not sure that a BS who focuses on their marriage and their spouse for the fault, blame, and answers is experiencing "wayward thinking".


Posts: 3183 | Registered: Mar 2005
notquiteoverit
Member
Member # 32919
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, June 10th (Monday)

The OW is 50% to blame. She may not have made a vow to me and did not even know me. However, everyone has the obligation to be a decent member of society and not to harm others. Yet, the OW knowingly particpated in a destructive act against me and actually had the nerve to expect me to feel sorry for her afterward. Is this the way decent people behave? No.


Me - BS 50
Him - WS 49
SOW - 52 destitute loser
D-day 1/28/11

Posts: 571 | Registered: Jul 2011
NewMom0220
Member
Member # 39036
Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, June 10th (Monday)

I had to laugh when I read this post because I just posted the same sentiment today. I think when I say that the AP didn't make promises to me, what I'm saying is that I realize that this intense anger is misdirected and I should be this mad at my WS. We all know that it is normal to try and somewhat protect our feelings about our WS because they can't really be this horrible...we picked them, right?

I feel like when I say things like that it is so other people know that I know that she isn't the real enemy in my marriage. If it wasn't this OW, it probably would have been another OW...because the problem was and is with my WS. He is the broken one who decided to go outside the marriage. Did he have help? Yes he did. She colluded with him to lie and deceive, but I guess when I say acknowledge that she didn't make a vow to me it is my way of saying I'm not totally nutso...but I hate this B anyway.


Me: BS 36
Him: WS 37
14 month old DS
Married 5 years, together 8, DIVORCING!!! (taking forever)
DDay: 3/1/13 (4 Month PA while I was pregnant)
Sometimes all you have to do is forget what you feel and remember what you deserve.

Posts: 329 | Registered: Apr 2013
ReunitePangea
Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, June 10th (Monday)

the AP didn't make vows or promises to me

I understand what you are trying to say in that the above is not an excuse for their poor judgement and disrespectful behavior.

However, maybe I just look at it differently but I didn't make any vows or promises to them so honestly I could careless about them. They are not a friend or even an acquaintance that I even have the smallest of feelings for. They are just some random person to me and based on their poor actions I want absolutely nothing to do with them. I could care less if they learn to fix whatever is wrong with them or not. When I am in a weak state, yes I have thoughts about the karma bus hitting them but then I think why do I even give them that much thought. For me to take the time to try to assess how much they are to blame, I would actual have to care if that even matters. I am not going to even show them that much respect because they have shown me none in return.

Is that wayward thinking? Am I rugsweeping by not thinking about how they contributed to my WWs LTA? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't - I just don't care about them enough to even take the time to consider it.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2012
Kierst13
Member
Member # 39197
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, June 10th (Monday)

I think it's a mischaracterization to make this phrase sound as if it's absolving the OP for responsibility for the A. I do not believe that the posters who write this are saying the OP was not wrong, was not bad, was not responsible for their actions. Again - pretty sure we ALL agree that they are.

Speaking for myself, that phrase is talking more about the MARRIAGE than the affair. Obviously the "affair partners" - meaning our WS and the OP - are by definition responsible for the affair. But when we're discussing VOWS, we're discussing marriage. And the OP isn't part of our marriage, therefore I think it would be respectful to acknowledge that it can be appropriate, healing and beneficial to place responsibility on our spouse for things that can only truly be changed by the two people within our marriage.

I recognize that really the R forum is about just that - looking into the marriage and rebuilding, without the endless energy focusing on the OP can sap from that pursuit. And that there's a great time and place for heaping venting and anger on the OP if that's how we're feeling, and General is certainly perfect for that. I'm not knocking it. I needed that too.

But I would not characterize addressing marital issues between only the two people in the marriage as "wayward thinking" in the slightest. And I'm not sure that a BS who focuses on their marriage and their spouse for the fault, blame, and answers is experiencing "wayward thinking".

Well said, thank you!

When i make that statement I am not giving the AP absolution, but I am saying my WH holds more responsibility for my heart and my hurt than the AP ever could. LIke I said in the last thread about this, yes the AP should choose to be a decent person, but when they don't, I can't give the same weight to their offense against me that I give to my WH. He owed me more than she ever could have. She is responsible for her actions in the affair, he is responsible for his actions and he WAS responsible for my heart, I no longer give him that honor and she never had it.


Story in my profile
He lied, I gave the gift of R
He became the model remorseful WS...all while lying and seeing her
Am I done? Yes I am!

Posts: 347 | Registered: May 2013
twodoves
Member
Member # 39181
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, June 10th (Monday)

I absolutely agree with you


Me - BS
Him - WS (N3v3rG1v1ngUp)
Together 7 years, married for 2
He was cheating for 5 years
5 OW
D-days: 4/23/13, 4/27/13, 5/10/13
1 toddler, baby girl on the way in December

Posts: 160 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Illinois
IAmPsycho
Member
Member # 39337
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, June 10th (Monday)

On some other sites for OW, I've seen them say that the BS is a "witch", and if she wasn't such a mean horrid person, then the WH wouldn't need a sweet OW like them.

What about the girl code? Shouldn't we expect women to leave MM alone? Just because I'm a girl and you're a girl, and we wouldn't do that to each other?

I wish my WH had slept with someone I didn't know. But as my best friend, the OW stabbed me hard! It's such a betrayal to tell your BFF about your marriage issues and then to have her use that against you. Where is the love? I wouldn't have done that to her, even if she was married to Channing Tatum and he was professing his love for me. I wouldn't do it!


BS (me) 43
WS (him) 48
Married 25 years
Reconciling for 12 years
DDAY 01-16-01
A with my best friend
Lots of children from 24-4 weeks old

Posts: 62 | Registered: May 2013
Sad in AZ
Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, June 10th (Monday)

I'm one of those 'guilty' of saying that the AP didn't owe me anything. I did not say it to absolve her of any culpability; she was as responsible for the A as the X was. I say it in that I expect nothing of the AP and I care nothing for the AP. I didn't fight for my M to get the AP to apologize or feel guilty--I couldn't care less how she feels.

I see members on this site agonize over why the AP did not apologize and I also see them say that they blame the AP for 'tempting' or 'tricking' their WS--I see this as BS blameshifting, and THIS gets my goat.

I won't even qualify my explanation for APs who are the BS's bff. I still would not expect (or accept) an apology from anyone whom I considered a bff who betrayed my trust. I did not promise them anything (as opposed to my WS) so I would cut them off without a second thought.

Just my 2 cents.


I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 19817 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Thanks all for your thoughts, perspectives and responses. An extra thank you to the waywards that did weigh in as I know it can sometimes be intimidating posting in General as you make yourself vulnerable to some pissed off BS's at times.

I would like to respond to some specific posters, but I don't have the time right now. However, I did want to throw something else out there to consider. Especially to those who don't feel that "the AP didn't take vows" isn't wayward thinking.

There are many couples who live together. They don't make vows are even promises. I know when my boyfriend and I moved in together we didn't make vows or promises. We made some assumptions that we were going to be exclusive and monogamous, but we didn't ever specifically say "I promise not to cheat on you." It was implied.

If one of us had cheated, and we then said "Well, I never promised you or made any vows that I wouldn't cheat!" isn't that wayward thinking? No promises or vows were ever spoken so is the partner not guilty?

Also, if the AP didn't make promise or vows to us and that it is irrelevant to the marriage, why even bring it up? Of course the AP didn't make promises or vows to us, that is obvious, and to me, it comes off sounding rather condescending to throw that in.

ETA: Maybe it could be better said "My WS broke his promises and vows to me" and leave it at that and not add in the part where the obvious is stated that the AP didn't.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:45 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)

SMS, I've posted on this before. I absolutely believe it's 100% WS and 100% OP. Marriage is a contract made not just between two people but society. It's a recognized contract with local, state,  government and witnessed on behalf of all of us. What 'your God's name here' has brought together let no one  tear asunder. It's really just that simple. Don't fuck with that union.

Where the wheels come off is when some BS's focus solely on the OP and make the WS a victim. That's a disaster. Well, they were at a weak point. Yeah, because I throw myself in front of speeding cars when I feel under the weather. We are not victims anymore than hangover sufferers are victims.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
doesitgetbetter
Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)

(Feeling quite offended at repeatedly being told that I have wayward thinking.... not exactly what a BS likes to hear especially when later comments were completely ignored)

I have repeatedly stated over my several years here that the AP is responsible for their part in the A, however the conversation in question was asking if one blames the AP or the WS. If you're asking me who is to blame for MY HUSBAND cheating on me, then it is solely MY HUSBAND'S responsibility that he cheated on me. My H was not raped, therefor it is not the AP's "fault" that he cheated.

I also stated that it definitely is not moral or right for the AP to have that attitude, but that still doesn't make the affair their fault. My H has an obligation to me, and society doesn't seem to care about what is moral or right anymore. Because of that, I can't expect some stranger to feel a moral pull to not mess with my marriage vows, but I can sure as heck expect my H to honor them.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)

What I have always maintained is that the AP was the accessory to the murder of my soul. Guilty? Hell yeah. But even if she handed him the gun, he still pulled the trigger.

I do agree that the "AP didn't owe me anything" isn't an accurate statement. Much like what Razor and UO stated, we live in a civilized society where social norms and constraints exist for a reason. She OWED ME the common human decency of not fucking with my kids lives, at the very least.

I also agree totally with UO that the problem which occurs when we fight too hard to make the AP to blame, is the risk of removing blame from the wayward. As I have moved through this process, I have blamed him more and more, and her less.

As to your original question, is it wayward thinking...yeah, I think so. Anything that causes other people harm which you minimize, is a problem.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6311 | Registered: Jan 2011
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

doesitgetbetter ~ this wasn't directed at you, as several posters posted the same thing repeatedly. And, as you see, there is a question mark on my topic. I am asking everyone's opinion if they feel this is wayward thinking, and as you can see, some feel it is, some don't, and some aren't sure.

I feel it is wayward thinking. Doesn't mean it is, just simply my opinion. Just as it is your opinion that "the AP didn't make any vows or promises to me". I didn't ignore your statements, it just didn't further clarify for me how that isn't wayward thinking.

The OW that I knew years ago made that statement. That she was doing nothing wrong, she didn't make vows or promises. Is that wayward or "foggy" thinking? If you feel that it is, how does that magically transform into non-wayward thinking when a BS makes the same statement? That is my question. No one has really clarified that for me.

Unless, of course, you feel that what the OW was stating is true. She wasn't doing anything wrong because she didn't make any vows or promises to you. Now, if you feel she did something wrong in spite of not making any vows or promises, I simply ask, why do you throw in that statement, that she didn't make any vows or promises to you? Just state she is wrong and leave the vows and promises out as they have absolutely nothing to do with it.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

It takes 2 people to be in an affair. Yes? Does not take 1. Your WS could not just cheat on his own.

People steal, people murder, people rape, people skimp on rent, people lie to their parents, people lie to their friends......

Yet when it comes to banging someone else we all hold up our hands and say "nope" not a bad thing. Nope not my fault.

Except when you are the one who has had this done upon you.

It takes two people to rob a bank, whether the person is the one in the bank or the car driver, they both get blamed. Many times the WS is planning on stealing from the household funds, or the kids college fund, or just everyday stuff like lunches or dinners or hotel rooms with the AP that are unknown and when found add up to $thousands$ of dollars by the BS.

When you sneak around and lie to the person who you are saying you are in partnership with you are stealing from them.

Yet society for thousands of years does not want to say that sex with someone else while in a partnership is stealing. Because people won't talk about sex.

Money, cars, stocks, bonds, kids, dogs, cats, furniture, 401K's......ALL a commodity.

Sex. Is a commodity. People seek it all the time, in affairs or whatever....yet no one wants to put it into any VALUE when caught or in trouble with their marriage.



Posts: 5613 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 6:13 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

That she was doing nothing wrong, she didn't make vows or promises. Is that wayward or "foggy" thinking? If you feel that it is, how does that magically transform into non-wayward thinking when a BS makes the same statement? That is my question. No one has really clarified that for me.

It's a matter of perspective.

When OW says it, she is talking about herself and absolving herself of responsibility for the affair.

When I as a BS am saying it, I am talking about the responsibility for maintaining my marriage and saying the OW is not part of the marriage, therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

This many years out, I'm hardly in "a fog" and have "wayward thinking" for not believing the OW is part of my marriage.

Can you please point me to the post in which a BS has said that the OW "isn't doing anything wrong" by having the affair?


Posts: 3183 | Registered: Mar 2005
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:31 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Can you please point me to the post in which a BS has said that the OW "isn't doing anything wrong" by having the affair?
Many seem to be missing the point of my post and why it sounds like wayward thinking.

I understand that you, circe, and many others are saying the AP was wrong and has some blame (some don't think they have any, too) and responsibility. What I am asking is why does that have anything to do with vows and promises? The AP's are wrong regardless of whether or not they made vows or promises to us. So why do people say, "My WS is the one to blame, afterall, the AP's didn't make vows or promises to us" ?

eta: Many of the BS's were saying the AP is wrong but not to blame. Really don't get the difference so much. And I believe the AP is equally to blame. No, my FWH isn't blamed more because he is my husband. I can understand peoples point that they don't have any expectations of a stranger to have any loyalty to them, that still doesn't absolve them from blame.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 6:55 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

. So why do people say, "My WS is the one to blame, afterall, the AP's didn't make vows or promises to us" ?

eta: Many of the BS's were saying the AP is wrong but not to blame. Really don't get the difference so much. And I believe the AP is equally to blame. No, my FWH isn't blamed more because he is my husband. I can understand peoples point that they don't have any expectations of a stranger to have any loyalty to them, that still doesn't absolve them from blame.

I've been trying to explain my perspective, but maybe it's not coming across well, or maybe it is but it's something that comes later in the R process? I don't know.

One last shot for me. I'll only speak from my own perspective.

Me and my husband are on the inside of our marriage. OW is on the outside. There is nothing in this world, IMO, that the OW can do to affect our marriage. This is a BLESSING. To me, this is a gift. The gift of marriage to me is that it is a home built around two people. We have children, yes, but even they do not make decisions about the bond between me and my husband.

The affair was an affront to my marriage, but the OW doesn't have any right to say what that affront was, or was not, because she is an outsider. It would be like me commenting on the politics of France - I can have an opinion, but I don't get a vote. OW can have an opinion about her place in the affair and our marriage, she can flap her mouth all day long about her guilt or innocence - but the only people who are TRULY invested and involved are me and my husband, and therefore we alone have the right, the privilege, the benefit, AND the responsibility for our marriage. Therefore - the blame and the buck stop at the two people who are the sole owners of our bond - me, and my husband.

The OW can be to blame for making an amoral decision, but she can not be to blame for the decisions of our marriage - for better or worse.

Just as I would never accept my child having done something wrong with one of his friends coming home to me trying to say that Bobby from next door was also to blame for their transgressions, because Bobby did the bad stuff, too. I would tell my son that Bobby was equally wrong, but because Bobby is not part of our family I really don't care about his role in the wrongdoing. He can be wrong on his own dime. My primary focus is my own family and their actions and their choices.

The OW can never take blame for my marriage because she's an outsider. There are only two insiders, and she isn't one of them. She can take blame for being a sad amoral cow, sure, when the subject is "what are you like as a human being?" - but when the subject is "the marriage between circe and Mr. circe", she simply doesn't have a place, good or bad.

When the OW tries to absolve herself of responsibility for her actions, she's trying to say that she wasn't wrong. And of course she was wrong. When I say the OW didn't have responsibility *for my marriage*, I'm trying to say that she doesn't have a role in the sacred bond between me and my husband. It's two different perspectives. When she says it, she's speaking as an outsider. When I say it, I'm speaking as an insider. It doesn't make a difference if our words are similar or different - they come from two sides of a huge chasm, and therefore any resemblance to each other is purely superficial.


Posts: 3183 | Registered: Mar 2005
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

*scratching head* Okay, I think I may understand where your perspective is coming from, circe. I don't know if the others who say that phrase mean that same thing as you, though.

And I will agree that the AP isn't to blame for anything in your marriage, except in intruding in it, but the AP is fully to blame for its part in the affair. Affair and marriage are two different things. *shrugs*

I do also feel this may be a semantics thing.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
JustWow
Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Well, the original post that this came from, I read as asking who it was that ***I*** blamed for the A.

There is no right thinking to that question. It was asking for an opinion.

Initially, some BS may only blame the AP and see their WS as a victim. Some, especially when it was a double betrayal blame both, some blame thier spouse only.

We can all say cheating is wrong so both people are responsible for the A. On this website, that it pretty much preaching to the choir.

In the real world, not everyone shares that value, sadly. In fact, lots of people in the world do not share the values I hold. Hence, I don't have intimate relationships with lots of them.

The AP shares no values with me, no relationship with me - it is a nobody.

I understand your perspective, I can say in an ideal world I would share it. But there is precious little left anymore that *everyone* in our society agrees is right or wrong.

Not wasting my energy giving a fiddler's fart about the AP and their culpability isn't wayward thinking on my part in my book. It is okay that we don't share that value.

It really is.


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3587 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Not wasting my energy giving a fiddler's fart about the AP and their culpability isn't wayward thinking on my part in my book.
Didn't say that at all. Don't really understand how you got that from what I was asking.

I am talking about a specifice phrase/statement. As an OW used that exact phrase to me,(I didn't make vows, etc...), it is a trigger for me. Also, coming from her mouth, it seems like that is wayward thinking, to me.

Nowhere did I say that people who don't give a "fiddler's fart" about the cupablility of the AP is wayward thinking.

As your registration date is 2008, I would assume (can be wrong) that your d-day was around that time. I hope I am in that place after being 5 years post d-day, JustWow.

I understand that we all don't have to agree with everyone here. That we are all different and have different values. And that is okay. I am just trying to make sense out of something that some BS's say that doesn't make sense to me.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:15 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Affair and marriage are two different things.

Yes. 20 paragraphs later and that sums up my opinion very nicely!

I know sentences can come off snarky or sarcastic in type - I'm genuinely tickled because that's just what I was trying to say with all my words.

I think it's semantics. I think some people are talking about OW as people, and I think others are thinking about OW in terms of their marriage, that's all.


Posts: 3183 | Registered: Mar 2005
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 9:59 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

I find myself to be equally irritated by the statement that AP made no vows to me.
Though I don't think I would characterize it as "Wayward" thinking.

I would characterize it as having a boundary recognition problem.

People who blow through boundaries the way they blow through stop signs, when they clearly know the rules and what is expected in our civilized society are responsible to uphold those rules...even when no one is looking.
We all get an equal share in the rules, rights and responsibilities of our society.

I don't need a vow from an AP in a society that recognizes a marital contract. And that is exactly why that statement rubs me the wrong way. They do have an obligation to me as a member of this society.

If they are aware of that contract and take action against it....I consider it to be intentional interference. I believe that the expectations of a marital contract are common knowledge. What good is any type of contract if there are no protections from third party intentional interference? And we all know how much damage that particular contract breach inflicts.

I definitely apply the 100%/100% rule. My contract with my husband is/was recognized by the whole of society and MOW is part of that society. They both took action to break that contract. My problem was that I was under the impression that I wasn't the only one, respecting that contract.

I can determine the source of the hurt and still choose to focus on R and healing. I also believe that the lack of justice or repayment to the BS on the part of the AP, contributes to the prolonged sense of anger. These types of comments feel dismissive of the damage inflicted on the BS by the AP because it omits their contribution to the pain.

I'm not willing to focus my energy on AP at this stage, as we need all the energy we can muster up to aid in the healing process. R and healing has absolutely nothing to do with where I lay the blame/responsibility of my injuries. I know exactly where to lay the blame. I just can't spend time trying to find justice from every party. I also can't expect that others will validate or acknowledge that pain. I know each person's role in my injury, and that's going to have to be good enough for me, or I will find myself sorely disappointed.


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

Excellent post refuz2bavictim! Thanks for sharing your perspective.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Shutup  Posted: 10:22 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

In any case: isn't "wayward thinking" an oxymoron?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1046 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Ladyogilvy
Member
Member # 31558
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

I agree with the perspective of not wasting time being angry with OW when it is WH who made vows and betrayed me. If I knew who she was, I might feel differently. I believe I met her but only because I believe she was at a party where she put her panties in my WH's pocket and I was at the same party. A Christmas party celebrating 10 years of our business where WH made a toast about how he couldn't have done it without me. I probably met her at other firm events but I know very few of the firm employees. I've met them at firm parties and picnics, I remember very few. I'll never attend another firm event and neither will WH. His partners have the events anyway. They are gutter sucking slime. They knew me and betrayed me. OW, she knew of me but would have only met me in passing. It's not like we were ever friends. If a friend was involved, or even an aquaintance I remembered having a conversation with, I'd be more angry with them. I guess I would take it more personally. As it is, she doesn't matter to me anymore than any other woman who had an A with any other WH. She may be a skank but it's nothing I take personally. I may even hate her but not in the same way I hate the people who knew me and betrayed me. Does that make sense?


Me: BW a youthful 49
Him: alcoholic, sober now, WH 56
Married 19 years
Two sons, 16 & 17 years old
DD? He's still keeping secrets and only admits to what I have indisputable
evidence of... the $2000 earrings he bought her for x-mas.

Posts: 1512 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

isn't "wayward thinking" an oxymoron?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9423 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
somanyyears
Member
Member # 26970
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)

..refuz2b's post is right on the mark..

and is exactly why i'm so pissed at the AP.

..as my bf, starting in Boy Scouts..we did share an oath, and as friends thru HS we shared a bond..

..and attending our wedding, he had an obligation to be a supporter of our marriage.

..his conscious pursuit of my gf/wife was a complete violation of all the trust i gave him, based on 25 years of friendship..

he most certainly ignored any and all boundaries in the calculated corruption of my very naive gf.. cleverly convincing her to 'get some more experience with other guys and offering himself up to be the first one she could 'experiment with!

People who blow through boundaries the way they blow through stop signs, when they clearly know the rules and what is expected in our civilized society are responsible to uphold those rules...even when no one is looking.

..his arrogance and sense of self-entitlement, to use my wife just for oral sex was simply selfish and cruel.

..he knew exactly what he was doing.. no love, no infatuation, no romance, no fog..just the lust for sexual gratification at any cost.

I also believe that the lack of justice or repayment to the BS on the part of the AP, contributes to the prolonged sense of anger.

I relate totally to this. I now realize that he was never my friend, all the while, I was being one to him.

..i suspect he could care less about the damage to my marriage or the damage to my wife and me after i caught him. His focus became simply damage control in his own second marriage. He probably never gave me a second thought.

That is, until he learned he had his brain tumor and was going to die. I'll bet he thought of me then!!!

Facing the 'ultimate' consequences for his evil actions had to have been on his mind as his final months ticked by.


I know exactly where to lay the blame.

..he orchestrated the whole thing.. my gf/wife was compliant to his very pursuasive and charming personality.

He simply talked her into doing his bidding or should i say 'sucking'..

Yes, I blame the AP in this case; - my wife was in many ways his victim. She also had boundary recognition problems, no doubt.

..and of course it was the late 60's.. the sexual revolution

smy

[This message edited by somanyyears at 11:17 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


trust no other human- love only your pets
She isn't and never was who I thought..I can't believe who I married and what she did to us.
Me 67
Her 63
Married 42 yrs (together 47)
18 yr LTA with bf


Posts: 4105 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: the sad state of affairs
Conflicted1
Member
Member # 39019
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

Ahhh. Boundaries are a never ending subject in my house. Most of my boundaries are to protect from outside forces - I guess I was so worried about keeping those propped up that it didn't occur to me I needed them enforced in our marriage. I no longer assume he knows where they are and where his need to be to meet my requirements to continue in our M. Sure is amazing to me the assumptions we each have erroneously made over the years. Lots of miles to go.


Honesty is a very expensive gift. Don't expect it from cheap people.

Posts: 101 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Me=BW 45
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 6:10 AM, June 14th (Friday)

refuz2bavictim said exactly what I was thinking, but would never have been able to articulate! Thank you


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
Topic Posts: 49