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User Topic: Another Boundary Thread
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)

My BS and I have been having interesting discussions about our boundaries, this week.

I thought mine were good.

I wasn't flirting.
I wasn't hugging men who weren't FOM.
I wasn't engaging men in conversations.
I thought I had it.

Because the boundary was blurry, hugging FOM, It slipped. I wouldn't approach men for hugs, but would give them if they approached me.

* we're in a 12 step fellowship where we hug as a greeting.
Being in the fellowship also means that I'm forced into social interaction with men.
We only have one Women's meeting in our area. I make it when I can.

So here are my new ones.

No hugging men (outside of family), not even FOM.

Watching closely how I act. Just because I'm not outwardly flirting, does not mean that I'm sending out the right vibe. Sharing what I learn with Chicho, my IC and my sponsor.

Being More guarded about what I share with men. Curt, but not rude answers. Not opening windows into my life. When I get anxious, in social situations, I tend to get chatty. Which invites people in without meaning to. I don't give deep personal info, but just enough to open the door.

I've started reading Not just Friends.

I've started Journaling. Making it a habit is the trick. Still working on my step work.

The whole conversation has made me really start to look at how I interact with others, and how I come across.


SO My reason for posting all this is for opinions.
But I also want to know what others boundaries are.
I realize everyone is different, so well have different needs, and different boundaries.
I need help with this

[This message edited by broevil at 1:36 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)

I wasn't flirting.
I wasn't hugging men who weren't FOM.
I wasn't engaging men in conversations.
I thought I had it.

To me, those aren't boundaries. Those are rules.

Boundaries are healthy thought processes that ensure some of those rules are unnecessary.

For instance...not engaging men in conversaions. Why? Some men are great resources or offer valuable perspectives on things. I'd never get through engine rebuilds without them.

My boundary isn't don't talk. My boundary is the thought process of enjoying people not absorbing them. They're not bandaids, flotation devices, aspirin, cheering sections. I don't look to them to see myself or define myself.

Boundaries are the healthy sense of self that won't tolerate bullshit from yourself or others.

The best boundary checks are what justifications you feel are valid from those and yourself that excuse actions and behaviors.

For example...(true story) I had a hectic morning and my youngest was looking to be donated to a childless family (he can be the poster child for birth control at times), spilled coffee, heard a knock while driving...in other words, Tuesday. Got to work and my clerk picked the wrong time to ask a question I had basically done a power point presentation the day before. Took her head clean off. Felt like shit. I apologized and was about to go into the above litany when realized one had nothing to do with the other. I have an issue with speaking my mind without actually engaging my mind regardless of what pain some of what I say may cause. It's unacceptable. I'm working on it and have gotten better.  Obviously a ways to go. My boundary is the thought processes I use to stop careless thoughts becoming painful actions. Detaching from circumstances and see people are not unbreakable.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 2:07 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
libertyrocks
Member
Member # 38924
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)

Good job, sweetie. Chico has helped me alot with my H, who seems more like you- personable, friendly, cool, likeable.

I'm glad you are setting boundaries for yourself. I always tell my H he doesn't NEED to be freinds with the opposite sex. I also tell him they DON'T HAVE to like you. Part of it for my H, is to be admired, I get it now.
In the past, he would make women laugh, tickle them, etc. Now I realize his cravings/addictions for female validation. Not saying that's you, but that's MY story.

Just met you, but proud of you that you're in 12 step. My H won't even go there. Yet. He says.


Me-BW 36. STBXH-35,Recovering Alcoholic, M6yrs T13. Boys 2 & 4 1/2.
DDay #1 Nov,2012. 1 1/2 year false R & TT. 10 OW PA's 1LTA (W lied to) 3 years.
S Nov, 2013 again Jan,2014
Filed for D Feb,2014.

Posts: 962 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: So Cal, baby. :)
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)

For instance...not engaging men in conversaions. Why? Some men are great resources or offer valuable perspectives on things. I'd never get through engine rebuilds without them.

I'm talking purely social situations. I talk with my landlord, the stove repair guy, and my mechanic, etc.

Maybe I need rules in place to protect my boundaries.....??

[This message edited by broevil at 7:35 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:24 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I was too Engine rebuilds can be quite social.

Ok, so, what are your boundaries? You don't talk to men socially. Why? What is the thought process that is requiring that rule?

I understand not building friendships, but do you feel you need complete isolation from the opposite sex socially to be "safe"?. If so, you may, in fact, not be safe regardless.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:35 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I understand not building friendships, but do you feel you need complete isolation from the opposite sex socially to be "safe"?. If so, you may, in fact, not be safe regardless.

I think this has to be gone into further than this.

Your somewhat single UO, you do have a SO, but do you social conversations with Married men if their wives are not present? Also, I believe you know you are not looking for any validation whatsoever in a conversation. That can vary from person to person.

Hlessons for instance, has to put up strict boundaries about social conversations at this point. I think that sometimes boundaries can be tight until a person knows more about where they are internally.

What do you think?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:52 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

Conversations? Yeah, I do. I don't ever txt, email or call but if I run into them at the store, sure. My engine rebuild thing was honestly not a joke. I've helped friend with their engines when I was married. The wives sometimes would be around, sometimes not. Never an issue. Never.

You and I have talked about this, I know. When I got divorced I didn't let my friends husband's come over and help around the pasture if I needed fences fixed because I didn't think the appearance was respectful.

My SO and I don't consider ourselves single at all so same respect applies whether married or not. He talks to women if he knows them socially often sharing things about me and vice versa. It doesn't happen a lot as neither of us go "out" much if really at all "alone".

I think self respect is a really solid boundary. When that's strong you're golden. That's my view.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:11 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I think self respect is a really solid boundary. When that's strong you're golden. That's my view

I think is where the difference comes in. There are people who will blur those boundaries due to self esteem and self respect issues. That tiny bit of desire for validation creeps in and boundaries get blown.

You and I both were in those types of situations for years because of the things we like to do. Me with my dog training, I thought nothing of it. I was there for one thing only. Train my dog.

But I know with others it is different. My H is different. He has to have boundaries that are tight. While he works on his issues.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 2:14 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I think self respect is a really solid boundary. When that's strong you're golden.
Absolutely!!

Posts: 11663 | Registered: Mar 2008
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 2:28 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I totally get that, TG. Thing is, my boundaries are "tight". I still view bro evils list as rules, rather than boundaries. Now, those rules may be key while those boundaries are being established and reinforced, but relying on them alone and calling them boundaries is dnagerous, to me.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 4:01 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I still view bro evils list as rules, rather than boundaries.

I do agree with UO. Most boundary definitions on SI has always made me uncomfortable. I really wouldn’t like to spend the rest of my life not talking to men. Or following rules. Neither I expect CL to do it.

Right now I am not talking to anybody. Males/females/kids/old friends/new friends even our family. Unless n until its absolutely needed. I wouldn’t call these boundaries. Its just that I m taking time to figure out what kind of relationships I form and why.
The fact that I am my worst enemy is agonizing . Howz not talking men gonna solve your issues if you need to be protected from yourself?
Where can you run and how long can you hide? Cheating is not the only form of self destruction.

[This message edited by EmotionalFool at 4:05 AM, June 13th (Thursday)]


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

I am working on figuring out boundaries right now, what they are, and what mine are.

In my 12 step program there is a pamphlet called: Establishing Boundaries in Recovery. It defines a boundary as a limit, a verbal and physical division that separate our identities, responsibilities, feelings, needs and issues from other people's.

They also define internal and external boundaries. Right now I am working on respecting myself, speaking up for myself, being honest with m myself. I think those are good starts for my internal ones.

External-wise I think I am using more rules right now, but pretty much not taking on others feelings or trying to fix others, and respecting others boundaries, is a start.

I had an example of a boundary kicking in a few weeks ago. I was on the borderline of flirting with someone, and all of a sudden a self awareness kicked in, I saw what I was doing, I saw my pattern, and I chose to act differently. I realize that I cannot isolate myself from 1/2 of the population, and that I need to take responsibility for how I act. It felt good to actually be aware of what I was doing, instead of just being on autopilot. I saw that the boundary I was crossing was not only not respecting myself, but also looking at this other person as an object, and not respecting them.

Thanks for positing this broevil-I think the more discussions on boundaries the better. For those of us who lived so long with porous ones talking about them is helpful.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

That is a really great explanation badchoice.

It is very much the self awareness that has to keep you safe in the long run.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4850 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

Oh Lordy another Boundary thread! I think that is awesome! So bravo Broevil for bringing it up. Boundaries are really pretty simple, it is what keeps them up and together that is tough. Boundaries are built with self worth and value. They are not built by the spouse or SO.

At first, sure it is just a set of rules that you and the BS decide on, but if it doesn't become more than that and deeply personal to yourself then it will not last, it will become compliance and loose its value.

What the person with boundary issues must come to realize is that self worth and value is priceless, you can't pawn it, loan it or let someone take it from you. When that realization happens you have some pretty cool boundaries.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
unforgivable5
Member
Member # 38797
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

yes... like badchoice and TG said, I think self awareness is the key. being aware of what is happening at the moment, thoughts,feelings, and actions. Rules are to be followed but boundaries to be understood so they are easy to follow. Is that it? thank you for this thread. Just gave me a "holy shiza" moment.


WH
D-day 3/4/13

Posts: 80 | Registered: Mar 2013
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, June 13th (Thursday)

It doesn't happen overnight so it is kinda like a slow burn.
1. Rules - defined by BS/WS
2. Realization of what is going on around us and our role in it.
3. Self worth and value that you when someone comes around looking to blur a boundary and take some of your worth, you are like "Ah hell no you didn't" Sounds better when you move your head left to right


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

At first, sure it is just a set of rules that you and the BS decide on, but if it doesn't become more than that and deeply personal to yourself then it will not last, it will become compliance and loose its value.

^^^^good shit^^^^
tis one reason, at this point, I refuse to try to enforce/set boundaries/rules for SLHim.

broevil,
I think you are on the right track here, what is it they say in the rooms?
you are exactly where you need to be?

sometimes you change the immediate behavior, and the thought process follows...
sometimes it works in reverse...

if this is working for you, and getting you closer to your goals, then keep at it.

progress...not perfection


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2407 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

Thanks for all the replies!!
This has helped me a lot!

but do you feel you need complete isolation from the opposite sex socially to be "safe"?. If so, you may, in fact, not be safe regardless.

No. Maybe I lacked clarity.

Breaks down like this: (10 points to whoever gets what movie that's from )

We have men who are FOM. I interact with them.

I don't want to shut out men. Especially not in recovery, that would be shutting out 70% of the experience that I may need to hear.

I'm not someone who had boundaries and slipped. I've NEVER had them. I don't know what they are.

I started this thread looking for examples of others boundaries.

But this:

It doesn't happen overnight so it is kinda like a slow burn.
1. Rules - defined by BS/WS
2. Realization of what is going on around us and our role in it.
3. Self worth and value that you when someone comes around looking to blur a boundary and take some of your worth, you are like "Ah hell no you didn't" Sounds better when you move your head left to right


This is awesome. Thank you, it helps a lot!

TG:

There are people who will blur those boundaries due to self esteem and self respect issues. That tiny bit of desire for validation creeps in and boundaries get blown.

He has to have boundaries that are tight. While he works on his issues.

Yes. I see me in this.


EF:

The fact that I am my worst enemy is agonizing . Howz not talking men gonna solve your issues if you need to be protected from yourself?
Where can you run and how long can you hide? Cheating is not the only form of self destruction.

I don't know... I feel that at least I can change myself. I can make myself better. I am the only thing I can change. I don't have to be my, or anyone else's worst enemy.

Maybe they need to be protected from me.

I've tried running and hiding for years. There is nowhere to go.

I still view bro evils list as rules, rather than boundaries

They are rules. But I thought they were boundaries until I realized that I have no idea what boundaries are!!

BC: Thanks for the phamplet suggestion. We found it online and I'll look at it later.

I was on the borderline of flirting with someone

For me this is too far.

SLH Thanks...


[This message edited by broevil at 1:33 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

I'd like to think I am instilling boundaries that will become more and more natural. I can give 2 examples, although they may not seem like boundaries but rather modified behavior.

I was walking down the street the other day and had a green dress on. I was speaking to my mom on the phone so my concentration was on my convo. Some guy says that's a nice dress as I walk past. I said thank you and keep walking and talking to my mom. He says have a nice day, I nod and kept talking. I feel like externally I was polite, did not encourage and disengaged as quickly as possible. Internally i assessed. I realized that the compliment was nothing to me, didn't effect my mood, or my levels of elation or depression. This kind of comment would have given me a little pep in my step before, now, nothing.

The second thing is my behavior around men socially. I take a dance class sometimes. Been going for a few months and it's always the same people. My BFF goes with me and she and I talk to a couple of the regulars there while waiting for the class to start. There are a couple men there who I enjoy dancing with because they have been taking the classes longer and when I have trouble learning a step they take it slow and help teach me. I know one is married as he mentioned his wife used to take the classes as well and he was trying to get her back in. This was said during a dance as small talk because it feels strange to just stare at your partner silently and I am not comfortable dancing in a full embrace. I do not end up dancing with him every class only if the rotation brings me there. So the last class I danced with him during one of the rotations and asked how he was and if his wife would be coming back to the classes soon. Then during the dance I mastered a difficult step and said "I like dancing with you." He asked why with a look and I thought about my statement and clarified immediately because I was not flirting or making overtures but in my mind I knew the reason why, he helped me learn the steps, nothing else. I couldn't care less about his personal life and we talk simply because we share space for a dance for a few minutes. So I said well you yelled at me to make me stop being nervous one day and help me learn the steps. That's it nothing else said. We rotated again and for the rest of the night I thought if I had said something wrong, thinking what else i need to put in place socially so nothing gets misconstrued again.

Those are my examples. Most of my boundaries are in reaction to each situation as they come. I have cut out all men as friends and socially I keep it impersonal and in the situation. If something bothers me I examine it, figure out if my actions were above board and how I handled the situation. I am hoping it will all be natural one day and I will not examine each minute detail so much but vigilance makes me realize where I still need changes.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2727 | Registered: Oct 2012
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

Breaks down like this: (10 points to whoever gets what movie that's from )

broevil

Pulp fiction..do i get 10 points???


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2492 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

YEP!!
10 points to floridaredman


Pulp fiction..do i get 10 points???


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, June 13th (Thursday)

YEP!!
10 points to floridaredman

YAYYY!! I won something..

Ok back to our regular programming


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2492 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
libertyrocks
Member
Member # 38924
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, June 14th (Friday)

Broevil, your too funny with your Pulp Fiction quotes and engine rebuiling. I have a girl crush on you. lol. :)
I'm totally kidding in fun.

While doing 180, I discovered I love fast cars, trucks, monster trucks,race cars, hot rods, tractors, hot wheels, etc.


Me-BW 36. STBXH-35,Recovering Alcoholic, M6yrs T13. Boys 2 & 4 1/2.
DDay #1 Nov,2012. 1 1/2 year false R & TT. 10 OW PA's 1LTA (W lied to) 3 years.
S Nov, 2013 again Jan,2014
Filed for D Feb,2014.

Posts: 962 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: So Cal, baby. :)
Hope24
Member
Member # 9344
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, June 14th (Friday)

I have a girl crush on you. lol

Definitely a boundary violation.


She packed up her potential and all she had learned and headed out to change a few things.

Posts: 7605 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Poolside
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, June 14th (Friday)

UO was the the one rebuilding engines, but I do love cars!!

Best Valentine's day ever was spent at a Monster Truck Jam!!

[This message edited by broevil at 1:40 PM, June 14th (Friday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, June 14th (Friday)

Ok, here's the thing that I keep running up against (and not in that good Las Vegas way)...

I get you're trying to get a handle on boundaries and that you never had them, but I bet you can look back and see that you actually did. Did you ever assert yourself with Chico? Make your wishes known? Put your foot down? My guess, is yes.

I think many have quite a bit of experience with boundaries. They may be shitty, poorly erected or placed in random places (usually a form of maze we construct when we want work arounds) but they're there.

The reason I hit on the rules portion is, let's be honest, marriage vows or relationship contracts are rule based often. Isn't that kind of what vows are? How'd that work for us?

If that thought process isn't tackled "rules" don't work. Most of the members of this forum actively posting are fairly new. Fresh in the trauma of dday and doing whatever they can to help heal and keep the marriage/relationship in tack.

I have a clerk that is bright, energetic, fun. She also is bi polar in her work performance. When she's on she can leap tall buildings in single bounds. When she's not she needs a map and a guide dog to navigate around the office. She's been "addressed" by me and the honeymoon period starts. She tells me the steps (rules) she'll take to make corrective actions and improve. And she does. Beautifully. For a bit. Then the relaxing, resenting (what, I STILL have to do that???), sliding comes.

She's about ready to go. There have been no work done on why she believes it's ok to barely meet expectations. She's charming and funny as hell. That's been a real boon for her up to now, I'm sure. But it's lost it's appeal.

I understood your question. I was giving my boundaries. Not accepting shit from myself or others that are not part of my value system. When that is hard coded you know it because you can feel yourself doing it. You know when what you're doing is not feeling right. You also know when someone else is doing something that feels off.

I may be off base here. I didn't choose to reconcile. I have been on here for 3 years and lurked a bit before, though, and I can say without many exceptions, I have seen others state they have no boundaries that have NO problems slapping those suckers right out there when someone posts something that doesn't set right.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, June 14th (Friday)

I definitely agree with you, UO.
...in the long run.

it has to start somewhere though, and if superficial abstinence is that place, which it is for most addicts, then so be it. start from there and build on it.
it would be awesome if recovery always started with grand introspection, but that's far from typical.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2407 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 2:20 PM, June 14th (Friday)

Oh so true. Through this whole processes grand introspection was definitely not my first step.

Avenged Sevenfold song Buried Alive always resonated with me and I focused in on one phrase...meanwhile the mice endure the wheel. That's what rules and following them without a clear understanding always felt like to me. Becomes meaningless without anchors. Those can happen pretty much out of the gate. Not a finished product at all, but baby steps that are solid ground and as long as there's that the next step presents itself.

Just my view


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, June 14th (Friday)

Did you ever assert yourself with Chico? Make your wishes known? Put your foot down? My guess, is yes.

No. We both thought about it for a while and neither of us could remember a time when that has happened.

I don't know if I had boundaries so much as a wall. Tall and thick. No one could get too close.

Overall the people I got involved with either walked all over me. Or I took complete advantage of them.


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, June 15th (Saturday)

I don't know if I had boundaries so much as a wall. Tall and thick. No one could get too close.

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about with the "shitty, random"

Walls and boundaries are created as a response. A response to our life experiences. When we have a healthy safe childhood chances are we are allowed our voice. Given the chance to make our desires known and our space respected. Boundaries result because we're comfortable with ourselves and our interactions with others.

Walls are what happens when we're not. We randomly erect these barriers towards actions (and therefore the people taking those actions) that trigger us from those negative experiences. Walls always result from negative.

So, someone seeking intimacy or getting too close will never know. Your internal fortress needs to be defended. You certainly won't communicate. You'll be paralyzed. Your parameter is being breached. Danger. Ever seen a cornered animal?

Here's where the problem I have with rules is. If that reaction to those "breaching" that wall and the core of that isn't worked on there is no hope for rules to work. There can be no trust because there can truly be no honesty from the one that erected the wall.

It's a survival mentality. Under siege and bartering for "food" using what currency you have to get what you need.

Both processes are done for the same reason. Our responses to life and those in our lives.

One is positive, healthy, communicative, enables strong relationships and safe interactions.

The other is barriers formed with no warning when breached and defended with no descriminstion on who is friend or foe. Perceived weakness in other's will be the "food" source we need without the feared "breach".

Don't know if that made any sense, but lack of sleep and kidlets is a horrible combo...also How To Train Your Dragon 16,000 times can wear on one.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 9:24 AM, June 15th (Saturday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)

I don't know if I had boundaries so much as a wall. Tall and thick. No one could get too close.

Overall the people I got involved with either walked all over me. Or I took complete advantage of them.

I was like this as well.

I'm a madhatter - my A was an EA with an ex, and my FBS and I have spent years now talking about boundaries. Each of us needed very, very different ways of building boundaries (he had an A a few years later, different type of boundary issue for him).

For me it was about acknowledging the potential outcome of situations as I participated in them. In the past I played the subconscious game, never outwardly acknowledged in my thinking mind, that as long as I could conceivably cage a situation as an innocent or friendly one, I was in the clear. Intellectually I certainly knew that in many contexts, what might otherwise be friendly and innocent behavior - hugs, a certain frequency of conversation, particular questions about someone's life or spouse, certain kinds of comments about myself or my life - would encourage men. Or make them curious, or make them look at me in a different light without anything outwardly changing between us.

So for me, it wasn't about rules (though rules were definitely necessary in taking the place of boundaries, before I established them inside myself) but about my subconscious intention, or my willingness to look at the potential social outcome of my words and behavior.

Yes of course I knew that the male coworker I spent so much time with could be spoken to in an outwardly innocent way that would nevertheless subtly change our professional relationship, but since there was no overt flirting, I allowed myself to do this. None of these men were affair partners because over a certain line I would have been forced to acknowledge that this is what I was doing - so this was all just "normal" interaction for me that happened to lead nowhere, but was all representative of my nonexistent boundaries.

Nowadays it's second nature for me to see those situations coming a mile away - or even just the potential for those situations to present themselves - and avoid them. Certain conversations, certain modes of communication, certain frequency of communication - they just set off a silent warning in me now. And because I have personal perimeters that are so firm and so much farther away from my center than they used to be, I have actually changed the way that men relate to me. We sense so much without being able to put our finger on specifics. My guess is that what men sense in me is nothing intimate. Friendly, goofy sometimes, relaxed - but on an intimate personal level I'm just not accessible.

But to get there took years, and while that was still in the works, I did need to give myself rules. The rules mimicked what I wanted to someday naturally present, showed me what good interaction felt like, and kept me and my marriage safe while I developed the real boundaries I needed and wanted. So for a while I had a set of rules that reflected my own challenges. At some point I realized I was no longer following rules, so much as I was just reacting to life normally - and my "normal" had changed, expanded, contracted and shaped itself into a more solid inner person expressed outwardly.

My FBS, who became a WS himself, had a completely different set of challenges and boundary issues. My boundaries were nonexistent, or like swiss cheese. His boundaries were mostly solid with one or two huge holes in them. So we had different paths to take to get where we each wanted to be, and where our marriage would be the most secure (and, finally, truly intimate).


Posts: 3190 | Registered: Mar 2005
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)

^^^^^^ YES YES YES!!!

THANK YOU!!


I see me all over this post!


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)

The rules mimicked what I wanted to someday naturally present, showed me what good interaction felt like, and kept me and my marriage safe while I developed the real boundaries I needed and wanted. So for a while I had a set of rules that reflected my own challenges

What kept you obeying them? "Good interaction" doesn't always feel good. What kept you in line when the wheels came off and until those boundaries were built?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)

You know, this thread has sat with me quite a bit and I finally figured out why. Thanks broevil!!!!!

I remembered a guy in our group of friends when I was growing up. The "nice guy". Always there for you (females in particular) always getting walked on. Always bemoaning how he got taken advantage of. I'd see him, though. How he'd set them up and lay the guilt traps. Go above and beyond for that pay off. If it didn't come feel ripped off.

Our group would always tell him to stand up for himself and get a backbone (we didn't understand the whole boundary concept or had even heard of it).

It wasn't boundaries he needed. It was respect...for himself and others. He reduced the women to prizes and devalued himself. Didn't have any confidence he could just be himself honestly and wait for another to appreciate. The years of his unspoken expectations and resentment when they didn't happen took its toll.

I think there's a huge part of me that goes on alert when I hear "rules". Probably because I never did well with them or those that imposed them.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)

I think there's a huge part of me that goes on alert when I hear "rules". Probably because I never did well with them or those that imposed them

Me too. Rebellion has always been a problem.

These are my rules.

What keeps me obeying them is a drive to be a healthier person.
Gotta take baby steps towards proper healthy boundaries!


Thanks broevil!!!!!

You're welcome!

I've gotten so much out of this thread!

Chicho and I have been exploring this whole thing all week. All of it, boundaries, rules, recovery, self respect, self validation, the list goes on!

It's been exhausting and awesome!

Thank you, for your posts. It's helped a lot. Everyone's have

[This message edited by broevil at 11:56 AM, June 18th (Tuesday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)

What kept you obeying them? "Good interaction" doesn't always feel good. What kept you in line when the wheels came off and until those boundaries were built?

Force of will, love, and the desire to stay in my marriage.

And honestly, good interaction DID feel good. I just exchanged "feeling good for sneakily getting attention" for "feeling good for doing something positive". Different reward system, and it required a lot of thought and pre-planning at first, but it wasn't entirely a negative experience and had its own, different rewards.


eta;

Chicho and I have been exploring this whole thing all week. All of it, boundaries, rules, recovery, self respect, self validation, the list goes on!

It's been exhausting and awesome!

Broevil, we went through that, too! We still sometimes talk about things in terms of boundaries, and it's really helped our communication in general. Also it's funny when things all click into place - and then later you encounter a situation and you can see perfectly how boundaries play into it, as if before it had been something murky and hard to articulate that just "felt wrong", and now it is clear and more easily defined.

[This message edited by circe at 12:33 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 3190 | Registered: Mar 2005
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)

I think there's a huge part of me that goes on alert when I hear "rules". Probably because I never did well with them or those that imposed them.

I think it's semantics. Just like if you were diabetic, avoiding sugar could be a 'rule' or just 'doing what you know is right and healthy'.


Posts: 3190 | Registered: Mar 2005
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)

Different reward system

I love this. That's EXACTLY what I had to focus on. What my "rewards" were and how I got them.

The almost unbearable rage I had when I was a child was released everytime I fought. I learned fighting FOR someone else that couldn't fight for themselves got me even a bigger hit because I'd have the physical release as well as fighting against the bullies I lived with by proxy.

No altruism involved at all. Sheer relief. Same with honesty. Since lies were covered by the master (mommie) truth was a weapon.

Took me years to figure that shit out. Still working through some of it. Difference between what you posted and my experiences was it didn't feel good. Not at first and sometimes still doesn't.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, June 19th (Wednesday)

@circe

I read your posts on this thread.. again and again..

Could you let me know what kind of rules you started off with? And how did you work on having a different reward system?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)

Rules verse boundaries: What comes to my mind is somebody driving the speed limit and not speeding. Are they doing it to avoid a ticket or are they doing it because they understand driving within the speed limit is safe for themselves (so they can continue supporting the people who are rely on them), for their passengers, and for the people around them...and understand that when its raining they may need to drive slower. Is their motive a fear of or a fear for, selfish or selfless, ignorant or wise.

I enjoy the deep discussion generated by this group.

Welcome back UO.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 738 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 10:23 PM, June 19th (Wednesday)

I like the speed limit metaphor.

Have you ever been on a road you have never been down before. You don't know what the speed limit is. There are people behind you. Are you going too fast? Areyou going too slow? Are you going to get a ticket? Are you being reckless? Are you obstructing traffic? Are you holding people up?

And then how much of a relief it is to finally see a sign telling you what you should be doing.


BS 39
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2580 | Registered: Aug 2012
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, March 6th (Thursday)

bump

[This message edited by broevil at 4:06 PM, March 6th (Thursday)]


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, March 6th (Thursday)

I wish you had more women's groups. I'm in AA and thereis a wwomen's meeting every day of the week. I'd go with you if you were closer even!


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 8:11 AM, March 7th (Friday)

I wish you had more women's groups. I'm in AA and thereis a wwomen's meeting every day of the week.

I wish we had more women's meetings too! We have one, but it's really hard for me to get there. I do occasionally attend women's step study groups.

I'd go with you if you were closer even!

Guess Hoth is a bit far


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1133 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
Topic Posts: 44