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User Topic: Emotions vs Intellect
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, July 7th (Sunday)

My fww has been out of town for a couple of weeks and has announced plans for an early return. Just when I was relaxing with the peace and quiet, I suddenly feel panicked and like a caged animal with nowhere to run.

I have been so damn confused I have posted in S/D, R, & the general forum. On an intellectual level, I do not miss her. She is a source of pain, confusion, uneasiness, stress, etcÖ She doesnít really make any contributions to my well-being on any level aside from sharing some household chores (which has dramatically improved since d-day) and she is very social so I do interact with others more when she is around. ETA... I can't say that she seems to be intentionally causing any stress or pain, but when she sees me put my guard down a little she is much less worried about her actions.

Here is the thing; I am still emotionally attracted to her. When she is being a decent human being, it just seems so comfortable. Itís the occasional shit sandwich that tends to bring me back and make me proceed with caution. So on an intellectual level I have healed and am strong, but on an emotional level, I am a complete wuss with no sense of direction. My brain tells me to be careful of fatal attraction, and my emotions are stupidly running along like disney's goofy.

I am just so scared and confused I donít know what the hell to do. To make matters worse, I am not like this with other people. I have no trouble telling someone to fí off when they cross a line with me.

Itís not that I do not have the strength to make a decision. I just donít seem to be able to be sure of what the hell I want or what to hell to do. My brain and my heart are in a battle and they seem to be tied in a battle to death. When she is good, my heart kinda turns to mush, and when she is bad, my brain kicks its ass.

I AM SOOOO C O N F U S E D!!!!

I'll gladly take any advice, suggestions, comments, &/or 2x4's (or old rusty water pipes if the 2x4's aren't sturdy enough).

[This message edited by joeboo at 11:49 AM, July 7th (Sunday)]


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
Tripletrouble
Member
Member # 39169
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, July 7th (Sunday)

You have pretty much summed up my same feeling very nicely. This is why I'm leaning towards S, so that I can make pragmatic decisions without going weak in his presence. When you figure it out let me know! I'm going crazy here.


40 somethings - me BW after 20 years
D Day April 2013
Divorced November 2013

Be happy with what you have while you work for what you want - Hellen Keller


Posts: 638 | Registered: May 2013
LAFA
Member
Member # 31868
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, July 7th (Sunday)

No 2x4 here. Gently, she is still playjng a game with you,and somewhat skillfully. You are just entranced enough to have a bit of hope that each shit sandwich will be the last. your intellect is getting you close to the detachment you know you need. Your emotions will catch up. I wish you peace, brother.


When you put someone on a pedestal, they quickly learn two things. The view is mighty good from up there, and it is a fine vantage from which to kick.

Posts: 183 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From: Hawaii
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

Are you happy joeboo? Can you see living like this for the rest of your life? Do you feel it may change? Why would it change?

This is what I have seen and felt from your posts since the beginning. I feel you may have a strong co-dependence dynamic going on. I feel you love your fww, but I feel the affair was a dealbreaker for you. I think you know that, too, but you want to fight it. And, you have fought the good fight.

Maybe a real separation with NC would help clear things up for you both.

eta: Because, frankly, I really don't feel your fww is 100% invested in this marriage.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:02 PM, July 7th (Sunday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

I feel very similar. Through counciling I have uncovered a fear of abandonment. My wife openly admits she is not 100% in our marriage.

I have requested a change in MC...see if that helps.

Detachment from my wife is really happening....and it is scary....but maybe that is where I am suppose to be heading?

Sound confused? Yepper, I am. But that is starting to feel normal.....sigh

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 4008 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
residencywife93
New Member
Member # 39695
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

I'm in the same boat... Just wanted to offer support to everyone.

Feelings are so painful. Seeing someone, hugging them, holding them, it is so confusing and takes away the sting briefly but leaves me with more questions.


Me: BS 27
Him: WH 27
Married 9/3/11
Together since 10/2006
DDay 5/28/13
Filed 7/22/13

Lacing up my nikes and running west!


Posts: 36 | Registered: Jun 2013
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

Are you happy joeboo?
Can you see living like this for the rest of your life?
Do you feel it may change?
Why would it change?
No.
Yes.
I wish, but very doubtful.
If I would believe her and she would never act promiscuous even if it was not associated with an A and she would never lie or exaggerate to me or anyone else.


I feel you may have a strong co-dependence dynamic going on. I feel you love your fww, but I feel the affair was a dealbreaker for you. I think you know that, too, but you want to fight it.
I have considered co-dependency too but got a little too bogged down in the definition. You inspired me to look for another definition in layman's terms I could understand. I ran across this link, and I wouldn't say I am a dead-ringer, but I think I qualify.

http://www.whatiscodependency.com/symptoms-of-codependency/

I guess I should address this before it destroys me.

[This message edited by joeboo at 1:01 PM, July 7th (Sunday)]


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

No 2x4 here. Gently, she is still playing a game with you,and somewhat skillfully.
This could make a small problem big.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

I guess I would say that living in limbo will give you a heart attack, seriously. The stress and pressure is terrible.

I can get what you are saying because I truly had a struggle of being in or being out. But I do think at the end of the day whatever info we try to give people only works if you implement it. Meaning if you are not going to do anything about it then you have to make up your mind that you are 100% in the marriage.

7 almost 8 years ago was my DDay and we separated for 6 mos. I was the happiest I had been for a long time after about the 1st mo. Looked great, felt great. All good. But I will say a very good IC helped me tremendously during that time. could not have done it otherwise.

When we got back together my the WS was very P/A (still is in many ways)but did go to MC and did give me transparency and did finally get out of the hell hole of a job he had at the time and all seems to be moving along to almost 8 yrs.

But I did have to finally say I was all in. I have him the gift of forgiveness. I won't say I still don't have that occaisonal "what the heck am I doing" moment. But my IC really helped me to get past it.

Now if tomorrow changes, or the next or the next? Then I will make a decision at that time. he could die, I could die, ya know life can change in a moment.

But you DO need to make a decision one way or another. Truly. Either decision is fine, just make one and decide you are going to be happy.


Posts: 5679 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

And it goes without saying that if it were to happen again I do think I am strong enough now to just walk. And it will be OK. Won't mean I won't need my SI family if that day happens but I will work my way to happiness.

I hope you can too.


Posts: 5679 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 11:54 PM, July 7th (Sunday)

I guess I would say that living in limbo will give you a heart attack, seriously. The stress and pressure is terrible.
Within the last year I have went into cardiac arrest 3 times and now have what appears to be a permanent arrhythmia that they say is related to non-physical stress. It appears as if I will be on AD's for the foreseeable future and am just winding down on anti-anxiety meds. I don't know that I can blame it all on the A's, but it sure as hell didn't do it any good.

ETA... Honestly, some days I really feel like I could die from a broken heart. Crazy thing is that I am not really depressed.

[This message edited by joeboo at 11:57 PM, July 7th (Sunday)]


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
stronger08
Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 5:43 AM, July 8th (Monday)

Joe, Your caught between perception and reality here. What you perceive is a life where things are not as bad as they seem. That there is a chance things will work themselves out. Your willing to sit there inactive with the hopes she will snap out of the fog. The reality of this is that you have an unremorseful spouse who at times acts nice just to keep your ass around. Her motivation for being nice could be your window dressing to show that she is not the cheating bitch who she really is. Or it could be a financial comfort for her that while she goes out cheating old reliable sits at home paying the bills and is basically supporting her A. Either way your being a doormat for her. Thus enabling her behaviors to never stop. You have been given some solid advice since you joined and have not followed through with any of it. I think you know that as long as you sit there doing nothing, nothing will change. Don't get yourself caught up in some bullshit that its not so bad being in infidelity limbo. I've seen people like you before who allow their lives to go right down the toilet because they allow infidelity to run their lives. Action causes a reaction. And if you do nothing things will not change. They will only get worse for you. Only you can change your circumstance. I want you to really think about what I've said. Because I would hate to see you stay on this road to misery. You deserve better my friend. But you and only you can change this.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5730 | Registered: Nov 2007
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, July 8th (Monday)

You have been given some solid advice since you joined and have not followed through with any of it.
...and I have appreciated all of it, even though I haven't always heeded that advice. I guess that kind of blows the "intellect" part of the equation.

I just keep thinking that there has to be a way to R, and that D is not the only option. Sometimes I wish she would fix it, and sometimes I wish I could and even try. She has made progress, as it is a better M, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a good M. I hope I am not fooling myself into thinking it could get better. If I could find a way to prove her guilty or innocent, I think it would be much easier to commit to something.

I have to ask...., are you suggesting that D is really the only reasonable option here? Is it beyond MC &/or IC if she was willing to put forth the work? I think I am ready to make some significant ultimatums but not sure what to do.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
Ostrich80
Member
Member # 34827
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, July 8th (Monday)

Me too Joeboo...I have no advice. I wish someone would knock some sense into me. Sucks to be like this, I know.


BS..me
WS..him
Been with him over half my life
4kid
DD1 10-01-09 DD2 02-12-12 discovered it never ended
OW..nothing special. Just your average skank
Status..#$%@????

Posts: 5141 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: midwest
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, July 8th (Monday)

This is a hard place to be in. Would you say you're in limbo right now?

Sometimes, in a place that's scary, it helps to focus on one small thing that can offer us stability. What are your boundaries? I don't necessarily mean with regards to your wife - in general, what keeps you safe? What are the guidelines you live by to stay healthy? Look at those, one by one, and acknowledge the patterns that keep you safe and healthy. Then you can begin to examine the ones that feel complicated. The trick is knowing for yourself what healthy looks like in those ones and then anchoring yourself. It's not a small thing and it takes a very long time, and you will feel the feelings for a very long time. The boundaries will help you slowly feel more stable.

You can start with physical ones that keep you physically healthy, and then start diving into the emotional ones. Are there emotional boundaries that your wife crosses with her behavior, things that don't make you feel safe? Is the very pendulum nature of your dynamic now making you feel unsafe?

How is she as a listener? You mention that she becomes less worried about her actions when you put down your guard - do you mean that she stops showing you the remorse that helps your relationship heal? Or that her boundaries become more lax with others?

Was there ever a point during R where it felt like your intimacy with her was rebuilding, or has something always been missing from R? Is she remorseful?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, July 8th (Monday)

How is she as a listener?
She is not really a very good listener with regard to intimate conversation. She has been getting better, but if we get to the tough questions she has typically been defensive, minimizes, or gives some competitive answer about how much worse she has it. In casual conversation she does just fine.

You mention that she becomes less worried about her actions when you put down your guard - do you mean that she stops showing you the remorse that helps your relationship heal? Or that her boundaries become more lax with others?
Both. Very clearly. Its as if her natural disposition isnít really to get along with me. It is almost as what stronger wrote in that she casts a net of niceness and once I am caught her work is done. I canít tell if it is deliberate or if it is on some subconscious level of habit. I think there is a little resent because of the expectations I placed on her socializing like going to a bar is grounds for a D. To her it is more likeÖ ĎI didnít go hang out with the crowd now you owe something nice in returní. The boundary thing is still just a little creepy and it causes me to never let go of viewing her as the cheater.

Was there ever a point during R where it felt like your intimacy with her was rebuilding, or has something always been missing from R?
There was a point about a year ago I made the commitment to go all in with R. That is when she slowly became her shitty self again. She was really just kind of mean and selfish which was completely different than what I had expected based on the previous year since d-day. She didnít want to D, was practically kissing my ass, etcÖ I didnít need her to swoon over me, I just wanted her to be civil, you know like a friend that wants to be with you. I thought we were there so I was ready to move forward with the M.

Is she remorseful?
Iíll be honest, sometimes I struggle with what remorse should look like from her. She has a lot of regret. She has changed her lifestyle considerably but Iím not sure she is happy about it as if she is forced to do it for the M.



Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
Brokenheart777
Member
Member # 38561
Default  Posted: 11:26 PM, July 8th (Monday)

Joeboo,
Everything that you just posted tells me that you know what you need to do here, but don't want to. It doesn't sound like you are dealing with someone who is interested in true R. A half assed effort is going to get some shitty half assed results and I feel R is something that requires full on effort from both parties to be successful. I don't know your back story too well, but it sounds like you need to separate for a while to gain some clarity. It seems that you are still trying to idealize this person. Once you step back from the "love" that you have for her, you may gain a clearer view of what you have and what you want. I wish you luck, man.


ME - A new person
HER - A waining memory
DDay - 2/22/2013
2-3 month EA/PA
Together for 6 years, ready to start my life . . .

"I can fill the flask up, but can't get past us
I'm in the storm, staying strong, but can't get back


Posts: 177 | Registered: Feb 2013
Brokenheart777
Member
Member # 38561
Default  Posted: 11:26 PM, July 8th (Monday)

:double Post:

[This message edited by Brokenheart777 at 11:26 PM, July 8th (Monday)]


ME - A new person
HER - A waining memory
DDay - 2/22/2013
2-3 month EA/PA
Together for 6 years, ready to start my life . . .

"I can fill the flask up, but can't get past us
I'm in the storm, staying strong, but can't get back


Posts: 177 | Registered: Feb 2013
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, July 8th (Monday)

Sorry you're here brother. IMO, you need to stop beating yourself up. I think you know the answers to your questions, but are afraid to give them voice.

Is it beyond MC &/or IC if she was willing to put forth the work?

Good question.

Iím not sure she is happy about it as if she is forced to do it for the M.

And her answer. Doesn't really sound willing.

At this point, it seems to me that filing for D IS your best option. Self preservation being the primary goal. Secondarily, IMO, it might just pull her head out long enough to get to a point where she realizes what's at stake and actually begins to do the work. You can stop the D at any point.

Why would you continue to allow her the upper hand in this relationship. Time to change the only person you can. What you have been doing hasn't been working, stop expecting her to change. She might, but it has to come from within her.

Strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
ďI have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.Ē
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, July 9th (Tuesday)


Joe,

I went through a period in which I felt like you describe. It came a lot sooner for me than for you, and I got through it a lot faster than you seem to be, but it sounds very similar.

I know I tend to see things positively, but it sounds to me like you're on your way to figuring out what you want.

Deciding what you want is your job. Separate that decision from evaluating whether what you want is attainable - they're 2 different decisions.

Focus on yourself to decide what you want. Your W is irrelevant to that decision.

If I would believe her and she would never act promiscuous even if it was not associated with an A and she would never lie or exaggerate to me or anyone else.

Surely you want more than that!


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10383 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)

I went through a period in which I felt like you describe. It came a lot sooner for me than for you, and I got through it a lot faster than you seem to be, but it sounds very similar.
Maybe the mods could change my screen name to sinotsosoon

I know I tend to see things positively, but it sounds to me like you're on your way to figuring out what you want.

Deciding what you want is your job. Separate that decision from evaluating whether what you want is attainable - they're 2 different decisions.
Focus on yourself to decide what you want. Your W is irrelevant to that decision.

I am really trying. I would like to R with her, but not the broken her. I just can't tell how far along in the process she is or even really wants to be. She says she is all in, but I am not convinced it is a diy project.

If I would believe her and she would never act promiscuous even if it was not associated with an A and she would never lie or exaggerate to me or anyone else.
Surely you want more than that!
Not really. Since d-day, I can't really say that I have ever been in a loving relationship with any woman. So to remove the stress of promiscuity and the worry of being lied to would be incredible and almost beyond comprehension.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
Rise And Shine
Member
Member # 27513
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)

Hi Joe

The truth is that reconciling a M after infidelity can be the most challenging life experience that any given person might go through. It's for sure the most challenging experience I've ever gone through. I think what makes it so difficult is the amount of time it can take before one is able to really move past the pain and fear of betrayal.

Joe, it doesn't matter that my WH is perfect since dday which was over 4yrs ago. Part of my personal recovery was/is being able to accept that 'there are no guarantees...'. Not just accept it but be okay with it? I'm not hardwired to accept that concept. Or, I am but just not hardwired to be able to live with it...happily live with it. Yet.

My path to personal recovery involved detaching from my WH, our M, my dream of 'forever', my idea of what a family unit looks like. But mostly, I think, it was learning to let go of my expectations of a spouse- because isn't that what the acceptance of no guarantees is about?

It's taken years for me to detach and grieve the loss of all of that. And it's probably going to take a few more years before I'm able to learn how to fully integrate my acceptance of no guarantees and my ability to safely love deeply once again.

But, my M today is a strong M. It feels solid most of the time and the times when it doesn't feel as solid is my own head-trip. Those are the times when I feel a little lonely still due to the no-guarantees thing creeping back in my head. Only now it passes as naturally as it creeps in.

She has changed her lifestyle considerably but Iím not sure she is happy about it as if she is forced to do it for the M.

It took me a lot longer than where you are now before I stopped being consumed with that question. It still creeps in at times but that's okay because it's natural. Looking back to pre-dday, I probably asked myself the same question only it wasn't significant because it didn't have the pain and reality attached to it like post-dday.

It took a lot of years before I was able to look at that question objectively, without all the emotion and find the true answer. The answer is that my WH really wants to be M'd to me and preserve our family unit and for the same reasons that I do. And they're good reasons.

Joe, if you're not sure if she wants to be in the M, why do you think she's staying in it? Do you think her reasons are any different than the reasons that you're staying in the M? I doubt it's comfort that keeps her in the M because there's nothing comfortable about being in a M that you don't want to be in. It can't be money because surely a woman who cheats is capable of monkey chaining from financial security to financial security. Hell. even at my age I'm capable of it! Children? A spouse who cheats doesn't think all that much about their children's wellbeing to begin with so it's not enough of a reason to stay put in a M. Children grown? Even less reason to stay put. Appearances? To selfish.

It can be a LONG personal hellish road for some of us before we find a place of peace. I was hypersensitive to every thing he did or didn't do for years post dday. I was miserable, lonely and constantly conflicted. It lifted with time and a whole lot of agonizing personal work- but it lifted.

I guess what I'm telling you, Joe, is that you got a lot of path still ahead of you but where you are on that path right now is normal.

Be kind to yourself.


April 25, 2009

Posts: 3263 | Registered: Feb 2010
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, July 10th (Wednesday)

Joe, if you're not sure if she wants to be in the M, why do you think she's staying in it? Do you think her reasons are any different than the reasons that you're staying in the M? I doubt it's comfort that keeps her in the M because there's nothing comfortable about being in a M that you don't want to be in. It can't be money because surely a woman who cheats is capable of monkey chaining from financial security to financial security. Hell. even at my age I'm capable of it! Children? A spouse who cheats doesn't think all that much about their children's wellbeing to begin with so it's not enough of a reason to stay put in a M. Children grown? Even less reason to stay put. Appearances? To selfish.
I certainly understand what you are saying but it defies the logic she used to stay in the M for 20+ years before any of the A's were confirmed. This has been going on since we were just dating but I was just too stupid and naive to figure it out. I don't fully understand her motivation to cheat. For the most part, the A's were PA's not EA's and there were no LTA's. I think it may have more to do with the stigma associated with being a 2 time divorcee and that her promiscuity was hidden from all those not engaged in that type of behavior. I can absolutely say that she would not want anyone to know that she cheated on me.

Fast forward to today. What is her motivation to stay? She's got it pretty good. I treat her well in spite of everything that has happened. I think she does love me. No where near as much as herself, but I think she loves me more than any of the other guys. I don't think she wants to, and I don't think I ever fulfilled her needs for sexual excitement which she may be learning to live with now (especially since we are not intimate now until I figure out what to do). Crazy thing is that not so long ago she told me that I am the only person in the world she trusts. She said it a few times. Yet she is one of the people in this world that I trust the least.

So I would say her reasons are a little different for staying than mine. I cringe at the thought of breaking up the family unit with ailing parents, the heels of one child's wedding, another expecting. There just doesn't ever seem to be a good time to have a shitty M.

Thanks for all the replies. Still very confused. I thought about a poly with only a day or two notice. Then, if that pans out, go back to MC and IC. If the poly didn't pan out, well then I would know where I stand.



Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
Topic Posts: 23