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Wayward Side
User Topic: Consequences?
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, July 14th (Sunday)


A BS's anger is completely normal and understandable. I agree 100%. Where I get derailed a bit is the following addendum, "he/she chose those consequences when he/she cheated. 

Ok. Here's where I have an issue. To me, truth is universal. Not situational. If something is true in one situation, it's probably going to be true in all similar situations. 

If the rage, outbursts, and verbal lashings are consequences regardless of how long or how virulent it sometimes is, how is that a limited concept? If you treated your wife/husband like something you found stuck to the bottom of your shoe for years what do you think the consequences for that is? They divorce you, in many cases giving up over half their shit along with time with kids? 

I can very much understand the rage of betrayal. I do think at some point it's like a Marx brothers movie with the 2x4. Blindsided the first time. At some point you learn to duck, vacate, or take the welder out. Does there not become an understanding that by choosing to stay you also are accepting the consequences of being close to someone that just fucked you over sideways? 

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader? 

Certainly not right out of the gate. I get that as well. 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader?

what does this mean?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
TXwifemom
Member
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Yes, I agree. I am a BS, so I'm going to speak freely.

As a BS that for now is still married, I am knowingly accepting a WS that "fucked (me) over sideways".

Yup, I struggle with that everyday. In a sense (I will say it as a BS), I get what I deserve. It if happens again, in a sense, I was the dumbass that chose to stay.

Caveat emptor.

Some BS like the role of being the hurt one. Maybe that has something to do with it for some.

for me, I guess I could say again that I love my kids more than I hate my husband. My mother divorced my dad because she was selfish and wanted "fun". Marriage and real life aren't always fun. But I made a commitment not to atom bomb my kids for my own superficial happiness. Not saying I can't be peacefully here with my WH. I can be. I can even find a modicum of happiness. But that is finding the happiness in ME, not because of him.

You don't save a marriage for the kids if you're going to walk around pouting forever. One, that's not saving any marriage. And two, the kids sense the pouting.

If and when it becomes anything but symbiotic for me, and anything but great for the kids, I'm gone.

If he cheats again, yes, I am the one that drove the car with the shitty broken down engine. If it deserts me, then yes, it is a consequence of my staying.

But my kids mean more to me than giving up. And my WH (for now) is trying hard. And yes, my numbness is a consequence of staying with someone that didn't care enough to give me a moment of thought before he atom bombed my life.
consequences, yes. Numbness. Not as bad as holding my babies as they cry when I am the one that destroys their lives.

Divorce destroys lives. Staying married and being a hostile passive aggressive bitch destroys lives. But there is another option. Trying to find peace and happiness inside myself does not mean I have to scrap my marriage. Sometimes affairs are a cry for help. They are not always meant to create a divorce.

Working it out and being periodically angry, and letting my kidlets see me deal with strife and remain a mature adult teaches lessons. Showing them that life is not perfect, and neither is daddy or mommy teaches lessons. Just because things got hairy at mile 20 doesn't mean I'm not finishing my marathon.

But if he reaches over and trips me again as I run, he is cut loose faster than I can say divorce. Because that is teaching my kids that I am not a pushover or a martyr. You get a second chance, but not if you don't do the work, fix yourself. In the meantime, I won't be the martyr, but WH has to deal with my anger and pain. It ain't clean. It is messy. It's the difference between a nice clean amputation of a gangrenous limb versus trying to treat the infection with multiple surgeries and interventions. Sometimes it works to save the limb, sometimes it makes the person toxic not to amputate, but sometimes they come out of it intact and cured.......

So I guess hope is my BS shortcoming. Hope that I will overcome this. Hope that I am making the right decision. Hope that my WH steps up and grows into a mature intact human being with a Superego and less of a walking ID.

And if I made another bad decision, yes, I will deal with the consequences. But I've dealt with worse, trust me. I'm less invested this time around. I'm running this marathon wearing Kevlar.

[This message edited by TXwifemom at 1:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Some BS like the role of being the hurt one. Maybe that has something to do with it for some.

Maybe. I've never got that from posts I've read. I have been on this site over three years and have seen some posters change.

Yes, one can "blame" the affair. Yet if FOO issues are dismissed and mocked as worthless excuses, how close is that to "why can't you just get over it?"

Child abuse is years of repeated constant torture robbing children of their development steps and lessons while teaching them horrific coping skills and destroying their self worth.

A 2 month affair is fucking horrific, no doubt. No one would ever THINK of telling a BS to just fucking get over it. Deal. Accept. Nope. The posts that comfort with 2-5 years and maybe forever. Forever changed. Forever different and certainly not in a good way...accepted and repeated.

Bottom line, to me, is while one does not choose the horror that life can inflict using tools that are SUPPOSED to be safe, nurturing, supportive, we make choices ever second after we have that knowledge. How we respond. If we stay. If we go. How we protect ourselves.

Each of those choices carry consequences regardless of the impetus for those choices...the fairness of their presentation in our lives. No one gets a pass. It's not about other's judgements or perception. Those are just the facts.

Do we not need to all accept that ownership?

EF, what I meant was healing WS that are serious about growth and health have to decide when recompense is counterproductive to that goal. We, who dealt the blow may not be the tool to help heal that atrocity.

If we use shame and guilt as the support for those choices we aren't on any path at all. Just a pit that keeps getting deeper with periodic wild attempts at fresh air. We already kinda know how those go.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Jospehine85
Member
Member # 35971
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

uncertainone,

Are you saying that a WS that is still being "punished" by their BS a couple years out from the A, need to think about leaving?

I would agree. I think a BS at some point (and like you said, not in the initial aftermath) needs to be able to stop punishing the WS and move in to a more constructive mode of interacting. There is a time limit to how long a WS should take what ever is dished out. Because at some point it does become just abuse.

What is good for the Betrayed is good for the Wayward.


Me - BS 40s
WH - 50s
4 Kids
Dday May 2012

Posts: 852 | Registered: Jun 2012
TXwifemom
Member
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser. You don't have to raise kids with them. You can cut ties with the FOO.

It is different. If my I came to my sister and cried on her shoulder about my husbands affair five years from now, then she would tell me to get over it. Appropriately so. With FOO stuff, you can leave and not deal with the abuser if you want.

With spouses when kids are involved, it's not that easy. Even if my WH beat me (he didn't) I would still have to treat him decently when I handed off my kids to him. I don't have to hand off my kids to my mother who beat me.


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
changedforlife
Member
Member # 38474
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

BS here. I do not post in this forum but I do read here and I find it very insightful. Thank you to all the WS that post here.

I don't really have a response to the original poster although uncertainone, I think you were a philosopher in a previous life.

TXwifemom - Your post really resonated with me. I feel for you. I hope that you can move past the numbness to more for you but I have not read your story so it is not for me to say. I hope to have more for myself and that I don't have to suffer any consequences by staying.

[This message edited by changedforlife at 3:57 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Me - BS/Him - WH (in our 40's)
Together 21 years/ 1 preschooler
D-day - Jan 24/13 He confessed about affair.
Broken NC -Feb 7-22,Feb 28,March 6
Continued Contact up to July 16
D-DAY 2-July 19 FALSE R!

Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2013
TXwifemom
Member
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

And no one deserves abuse. Even the WS. Period.

I think talking about anger, etc. is not abusive. Dealing with feelings is not abusive. Making my WS face my pain that he caused is not abusive. The problem is also that some WS have a knack for escaping, hence the compartmentalization. So claiming abuse for the first time from your BS could also be not wanting to deal with the BS in pain.

I understand some battered spouses use affairs to exit the relationship. But that is the minority.


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

To me, truth is universal. Not situational. If something is true in one situation, it's probably going to be true in all similar situations.

How does that work? So, once a cheater always a cheater? Once a victim, always a victim?

There are consequences for everything we choose, some are ours to own and some are thrust upon us. We still get to choose how we deal with those too.

As a healing WS do you not the own the consequences of continuing to blur boundaries with shame and guilt your cheerleader?

Is that WS really healing?

Maybe, maybe not, was never into cheerleaders. I like'd the girl in parachute pants with the def leppard tee shirt who sat in front of me in geometry!!


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Does there not become an understanding that by choosing to stay you also are accepting the consequences of being close to someone that just fucked you over sideways?

hope I can answer this as a BS. Today I saw OW#1 at the pool. I left shortly thereafter. If I choose to stay with my husband, do I accept that I will occasionally see these women? I guess so. Will he hear about it every time in a hurt but not angry way?? count on it. Is that abusive? Don't know. If it is and he doesn't like it he should get out now.
I bet there are many out there that aren't quite as close to those who just effed them over. Not even close. Staying for many other reasons. JMO.

as a wayward? hmmmm, I will accept that rage anywhere, anytime.. If you don't have shame or guilt attached to what you have done anymore, there isn't much emotion tied to hearing it than being there to listen to the BS.

[This message edited by rachelc at 5:40 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

UO, this won't be the first time I failed to understand your point, so with that caveat: I'm getting the impression you feel a BS's anger has a half life. How long do you reckon the BS is entitled to be angry? Right out of the gate it's understandable, you say, but at what point is it no longer acceptable?

You're saying, I think, that accepting the consequences of our actions is a two-way street. Yes, choosing R means that at some point, the partners need to say "bygones!" and move forward together as equals. Far too soon for BH & I to know, but each couple, each situation is unique. Some BSs on SI still seem angry 2-3 years out, while others are harmoniously R'd in 9 months. Who, outside of each M, is qualified to say when detente should be reached?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1185 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser. You don't have to raise kids with them. You can cut ties with the FOO.
Once you are an adult, you can cut ties with anyone you want, at any time you want, for any reason you want.

With FOO stuff, you can leave and not deal with the abuser if you want.
And yet all of those lessons learned, and all of those coping skills developed during the formative years of your life, you are still stuck with. Just as we (here) would condemn anyone saying "aren't you over it yet" to a betrayed spouse, should we also not recognize that this can be inappropriate with FOO issues as well.

I think a BS at some point (and like you said, not in the initial aftermath) needs to be able to stop punishing the WS and move in to a more constructive mode of interacting. There is a time limit to how long a WS should take what ever is dished out. Because at some point it does become just abuse.
Punishment is not necessarily conducive to rehabilitation at any point. It may or may not be necessary in order to make people think about what they have done.

So claiming abuse for the first time from your BS could also be not wanting to deal with the BS in pain.
This is quite true. Hell, I can remember being called abusive for insisting on NC. Look it up, it is on the checklists for signs of abuse, trying to control a partners friends and social interaction. She had lots of cheerleaders that jumped on that bandwagon.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
lostmylight55
Member
Member # 33517
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Your post seems fairly cryptic to me and I have a hard time deciphering what your intended question/point is.

That being said, I will speak from my own experience as a WS. When we were fresh after Dday my BS raged, called me horrible names (but accurate ones) and cried a lot. I have been a conflict avoider most of my life, my first response to negativity is to shut down and run. If I had not changed after Dday, we would not be going into our third year of R.

My counselor once asked me how much am I willing to take before I say enough. My answer to her, and to anyone else for that matter is… "As long as it takes!". At that time, I hoped it would get better and I thought it would get better and I was right.

IMO, This doesn't make me weak or a doormat or compliant or a victim OR abused. I needed to see the pain in my BS face and hear her outrage and frustration, not just for my A but also for a large part of our marriage. I witnessed PTSD first hand – I now understand what it is.

I never raised my hand to my BS, never yelled or called her names but I was abusive just the same. I was emotionally abusive to her in our marriage, I was unavailable/neglectful, I was passive aggressive and self-centered. This was all before my A and it only magnified exponentially during my A. Yet everyone outside of the marriage including my W said I was a "Good Guy". Hell, I thought I was a "Good Guy".

She didn't have the opportunity to vent or rage or whatever while it was going on because she didn't have all the information at the time and I wouldn't have listened anyway. Her anger wasn't just to punish me, but to express her outrage and incredible hurt at a life of living with someone she thought she knew and trusted but came to find she didn't. With PTSD there is little control over the emotions that come on.

I accept the consequences for my actions. For me, walking away would have been the easier path, but also for me, I would not be growing as quickly without seeing the anger that pain brings first hand – if at all. With those consequences, I experience a lot of positive things not just in myself but with our relationship. In some ways, I think, along with therapy, i have actually helped my BS heal a little by being here with her.

As I have said, we are entering year 3 into R and doing remarkably well. We laugh and enjoy each other, we talk a lot, we read together and cry together as well and if once in a while there is a trigger that sets my BS into a bad space, I will plant my feet, hold her hand and ride out the storm with her.

But I believe every situation is unique and should be considered so.


My Boundaries are firm: Trespassers will be shot on sight.

Posts: 89 | Registered: Oct 2011
TXwifemom
Member
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 8:30 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Aesir, you can't cut ties with the father of your children. Unless you take the kids off to Mexico. Which is illegal. Just sayin'

Gotta have contact to pass the kids off..... Even if you get a court supervised situation, you still have to see them. And we won't even go into how being awful to your ex affects the kids......

[This message edited by TXwifemom at 8:31 PM, July 14th (Sunday)]


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

Lost- what a great post. Thank you....


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:15 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

What an interesting topic. There was something I read in Shattered Vows (Debra Laaser) about consequences that made me think:

...You create the most natural consequences out of your feeling. Problems will arise if you're not in tune with your own feelings...The most honest consequence our spouses can experience from us is an accurate expression of how we feel. Many [spouses] will rage or blame or throw out threats. Others will show up with overflowing compassion and patience. But somewhere under both of those responses is a lot of sadness and grief. Those are emotions that your [spouse] can take in. Those remind [your spouse] of the precious heart [s/he] has harmed. (pg. 42)

Some [betrayed spouses] will want to create consequences for their [wayward spouses] simply because [s/he] has done a bad thing and they believe [s/he] needs to be punished or [s/he] will do it again. But choosing punishing behaviors just for the sake of reprimanding your [spouse] never works. Check your motivation: if you are sharing your feelings and making decisions to take care of yourself, you are being authentic. Consequences born of authenticity are the ones most likely to have an impact. (pg. 43)

This spoke to me because it makes it less about controlling your partner and more about tending your own wounds and suffering. It also makes it possible for support from your partner to come from a genuine place. If your partner doesn't want to be supportive, you cannot make them, and that is the heart-breaking reality.

I think this applies for a lot of cases. For marital problems where one partner hurts another, separate from infidelity. For things that happen within FOO. Be true to your feelings and express them; the response will tell you whether or not you are safe, and then you can act to protect your safety.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

One key difference here is that with FOO issues, you don't have to stay married to your abuser

I disagree completely. When something awful happens to you as an adult, you have the capability to decide to stay or go. When you talk about cutting ties with FOO people, it has been years of programming while you were a captive audience.

When you are six or seven or fifteen, you are stuck where you are while your brain gets fucked up rewired.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, July 14th (Sunday)

But I believe every situation is unique and should be considered so.

Of course. That wasn't the topic of my post...how or how not to r.

I don't feel my post was cryptic, or it certainly wasn't intended to be.

My position was simply consequences for our choices are universal not alphabet driven. When one chooses to stay, there are consequences for that choice as well. For both partners.

20wrong, no, that is not what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with how valid anger is nor how long one can feel it.

Josephine, no I'm not stating anyone HAS to leave nor judge when enough is enough.

I am puzzled by the confusion. I read posts that when the anger and the pain is expressed the response is "the WS chose to engage in something that created this pain...these are the consequences".

Everyone seems to grasp that concept with no question, however what is missing from that equation is the betrayed and the consequences for those actions on themselves. We don't control what others do. We do absolutely control our responses. When choosing to stay there are consequences for that including the presence of a partner that has violated your trust and your understanding of reality. Be careful. While the hugs an support are comforting each action you take that leads you farther away from who you believe yourself to be is dangerous.

I can say that without equivocation. I chose to reconcile too. For years. After every betrayal of his fist, feet, tongue, force. It takes a horrific toll. It was not responsible for my disasterous decisions. I was. Every one of them. Now I hail to "you" from this forum.

Whether one chooses to reconcile or not is not in and of itself a testament of strength or of weakness. It's the courage to face who we are and what we are becoming that is important, to me.

When I came to SI I came for help with anger and pain. My posts looked very much like those I read in general and just found out. What did he expect when he chose to do what he did to me for fucking years.

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 12:51 AM, July 15th (Monday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 1:12 AM, July 15th (Monday)

I think I get what your saying UO. I think it's why I'm having such a hard time coping with my current situation because despite his actions I am the one choosing to stay. I am reaping the consequences of that choice every day.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2742 | Registered: Oct 2012
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:34 AM, July 15th (Monday)

I think I get what your saying UO. I think it's why I'm having such a hard time coping with my current situation because despite his actions I am the one choosing to stay. I am reaping the consequences of that choice every day.

You do and yes, you are.

Why? You don't owe me, an answer unagie. Just yourself.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:36 AM, July 15th (Monday)

When choosing to stay there are consequences for that including the presence of a partner that has violated your trust and your understanding of reality. Be careful.

You're absolutely right.

It's the courage to face who we are and what we are becoming that is important, to me.

So true, too. The way we react to pain, to "happiness", to anything - changes us. Some ways of handling anger can be healthy, while others can make us very sick.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
GraceisGood
Member
Member # 17686
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, July 15th (Monday)

We can all boil it down to one phrase "reasons" of course such as the WS cheated because they were selfish. Of course there are many variables as to why and how that selfishness was born/fed/etc. in the WS, foo, trama, mental/bio chemical issues, etc.

Of course as a BS I have consequences for staying with the person who fucked me over moreso than anyone else.

Plain and simple but there are variables imo, for one when in trama, it is difficult to think straight, to see things clearly, to realize the consequences for the actions/words of the now imo. Not an excuse by any means, just a fact of life, we are not all self aware, we do not all have the practice of looking forward to possible outcomes of our actions/words prior to doing/saying. Also Foo plays a factor, etc.

I think neither WS nor BS has the market cornered on future ramifications of current actions/words.

She didn't have the opportunity to vent or rage or whatever while it was going on because she didn't have all the information at the time and I wouldn't have listened anyway.

This is a good point imo. The processing for a BS is unique and individual to be sure just as the circumstances. It takes time to become aware, to realize things fully (and then one has to question if it is truly realized fully or if there might be even more or a deeper understanding at a later time with more growth and awareness).

I do not see all this as being done in steps, with a path or a map, I see starts and stops, growth, weeding, watering, time, blooms, fruit, hibernation, etc. over and over. Some seasons the crop is bountiful and some are sparce, we all deal with drought, and pests etc, but sometimes we get all the optimal conditions, we just do not know for sure at the beginning what we will get, it is a risk you take at seed time.

When choosing to stay there are consequences for that including the presence of a partner that has violated your trust and your understanding of reality. Be careful.

this is one of those realizations that for some come quickly, perhaps instantly, and for others take time, years and for some may never be realized.

I believe truth is truth, but how it is played out in each persons life is unique imo due to personal filters, upbringing, culture, spiritual path, etc.

Grace


We have a tendency to think the love offered us is a reflection of our worth and value.But in actuality,it's a reflection of the person that is giving it.We love out of who WE are-not because of who the receiver is.At least in terms of real love.TSMF

Posts: 3435 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: how far the east is from the west
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Well, this is another nice mess you've gotten me into! I am sure that went over many heads, but the older ones here will get it. The point is, this is the crap situation that the WS has put the BS into. We had no choice, but now we get to pick our consequences.

To me it is like the devil offering me my choice of hell.

Or, the Nazi soldier offering Sophie her choice. (Sophies Choice)

I remember our first MC session. I told the MC that I was in a lose/lose situation. Both of my choices was to eat the shit sandwich.

I chose the reconciliation shit sandwich. And, you nailed the flavor and the texture of that shit sandwich, UO.

When choosing to stay there are consequences for that including the presence of a partner that has violated your trust and your understanding of reality. Be careful.
I don't know about other BS's, but I was quite aware of the consequences for me from the get go. What I don't know is the long term consequences, as none of us are omnipotent. Yeah, I chose this consequence for myself, actually forced into, making a choice for myself. Although, I do recall a day back in April 1979 when I made the choice freely and was not forced at all.

Just like FWH has a choice to make. Will he be able to handle my triggers and my snappy, sarcastic remarks for (fill in the blank) number of years? Does he want to make the changes necessary to himself? Does he want to face the demons of his FoO issues? Will he be able to handle the changes in me due to this traumatic event and one that I am finally realizing I am suffering some very deep probable PTSD? I am more fucked up now (in some ways) than when he felt I was fucked up and he had to cheat on me.

I am sure the divorce shit sandwich has its own distinct flavor and texture. Since I am not divorcing, I don't know what that flavor is.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:42 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Yep. What she said.


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Will he be able to handle my triggers and my snappy, sarcastic remarks for (fill in the blank) number of years?

*shrug* who knows? That's his wheelhouse. Will you? That's the question only you can answer. Keep in mind the boiling frog. It's surprising how "we" adapt to changes in ourselves without even registering they're occurring until you look one day and the stranger you see is you.

The focus on another's actions that level such a blow can mask the responses to those actions and link the source to the other when it's really us that's now the "doer".

So interesting to see the consensus the affair has NOTHING to do with the marriage or BS prior to dday (which is completely true). Seems like after dday it now has EVERYTHING to do with the marriage and the BS. BS's actions are because of the affair. The changes, impact, choices, all because of and about the affair.

I'm not ignorant enough not to recognize how much of a shit storm another's choices cause. I saw just that in my own life. I also see how my choices to respond we're solely mine. It's not about blame. It's an inventory of myself and the things I need to change if I want health and growth.

Sure, I can see how his actions affected me. Those actions are no longer present. The choices I made very much are. It's those I chose to focus on. Paid enough attention to his shit to last me a lifetime. My turn now.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 3:47 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
noescape
Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 15th (Monday)

What GG said. I was about to type that word for word; including the agricultural reference. The words I'd look for though, would be 'feedback mechanism'. Why the A matters so much in this equation is because that feedback mechanism was missing/hidden. All other interactions, you can expect feedback and (choose to) adjust accordingly. For the WS to steal that option from a BS is essentially where the consequences play out. There needs to be a levelling of the playing field in essence. The processing through trauma as GG put it.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Apologies in advance for the thread jack. Lostmylight55, what you wrote about your wife's PTSD related to your conflict avoidance resonated with me strongly--I think that's something that has happened to me too (though I'm the WS in this situation.) Tried to PM you but you don't seem to be accepting mail. Would you be willing to discuss, either by PM or in a forum (General?) I would appreciate it, thanks.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, July 15th (Monday)

I have always been snappy and sarcastic, when angry or PMSing. However, now it is about his cheating. My triggers are far and few between now, and oftentimes, I deal with it myself. But, there are those times that FWH will get my anger. So, yeah, I can look at myself in the mirror and not see a stranger as far as that goes.

I believe I said that was FWH's choice to deal with or not, and I am not worried about it. Fuck him if he can't deal. Let him walk in my shoes see how he does there.

The changes I am talking about is how I have crippling bouts of anxiety and panic attacks. It is fucked up and a direct result of the trauma of the affair. I am talking about how I can't deal with everyday life, like making a simple phone call to a customer service person or to talk about a bill because of overwhelming anxiety. How I can't deal with mail as I found out about the affair in a letter from OW. No, these aren't choices in my behaviour that I have made, it was thrust upon me by a traumatizing event.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:29 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Hmmmm as I look in the mirror I like the stranger i see more and more. She will never again be that person who lets things slide by for the sake of peace, especially as a wayward.

As a BS, I have choices. Hell one might be to duck and run. Totally ok. For either of us. Our actions caused the others PTSD. Sure, we weren't healthy to begin with but there it is. When you are in personal dysfunction and then shitstorms rain down, how can another's choices not affect how you proceed? There is so much healing that needs to be done,
It seems nigh impossible. Maybe that's where much of our anger comes from.
Damn, if I'd just gotten myself together before he had his affair I'd be halfway there. Hardly ever happens....,


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Does there not become an understanding that by choosing to stay you also are accepting the consequences of being close to someone that just fucked you over sideways?

To me the answer is yes. An affair is an act of emotional cruelty and selfishness, at the BS' expense. But at some point the backlash, or consequences, dished out by the BS become just as cruel. It may feel like just desserts, but it's not conducive to a repaired relationship.

I'm only 5 months in, and it's tough as hell to get out of the punishment mindset. I told my WW several times in the first couple of months (with a healthy dose of self-righteousness) that if the fallout from her affair is more than she can handle, she is free to pull the plug anytime. But things are improving. Now when I occasionally lash out (like I did on Saturday), we make it right and get back on an even keel that same day. Just a month or so ago, the bad feelings would linger for 4-5 days. Prior to that, bad days were the norm.

But I realize that at some point in the not-so-distant future, my wife needs to be free of the negativity created by the affair. Both internally (from her) and externally (from me). Otherwise it's just two people making each other miserable over past events. That shouldn't be acceptable to any sane person, whether a WS or BS.

At some point there simply is no reason to give grief to a spouse who is genuinely remorseful and trying his or her best to repair the damage. Especially if your grief (like mine) has been expressed fully, in a variety of ways. What's the point except to inflict further pain? Your WS already showed what that does to a marriage.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1388 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Sal- that was tough but good to read, from a BS perspective. I'm gritting my teeth as I agree with all that.
As a former wayward, I will maybe have to disagree that nothing my husband could dish out verbally would be as bad as what I did to degrade myself, not even close.


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Plain and simple but there are variables imo, for one when in trama, it is difficult to think straight, to see things clearly, to realize the consequences for the actions/words of the now imo. Not an excuse by any means, just a fact of life, we are not all self aware, we do not all have the practice of looking forward to possible outcomes of our actions/words prior to doing/saying. Also Foo plays a factor, etc.

I agree with every word of this. Let me ask, how far do you think a wayward spouse would get if posting this on here? Doesn't make it not true, though, does it?

It's surprising how similar one can react to trauma but how differently they can be "seen" based on an understanding of that trauma.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 6:04 PM, July 15th (Monday)

But at some point the backlash, or consequences, dished out by the BS become just as cruel

See, again this is focusing on the external target. I honestly don't have an issue, myself (again, just speaking for me) with "as cruel" or even more cruel. If you're coming at me you best bring it because I sure as fuck will (my modus operandi prior to this shit).

It's the internal damage that can wreck on a person if that isn't in line with their value system and who they want to be.

I've always said on here if actions don't fuck with your character and integrity (each persons values can be different) than game on and it's on the other person to deal or bounce.

So many it doesn't seem their actions are in line with that. That's where the self destruction comes into it, for me, regardless of where the nexus of the trauma orginates.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
lostmylight55
Member
Member # 33517
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, July 15th (Monday)

BostonGirl, I am sorry to hear about your issues with PTSD. Part of my boundaries is that I do not take PM's. I mostly lurk and read on the forum but will respond to things that resonate with my particular situation.

If you post in the General forum I'm sure you will get a lot of valuable info from many who have experience directly with PTSD and conflict avoidance. I believe those are fairly common things around here. If I can offer input, I will.

No, these aren't choices in my behaviour that I have made, it was thrust upon me by a traumatizing event.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. There are a lot of traumatizing events that bring on behaviors that are beyond a persons control like being in a car accident and having a panic attack behind the wheel or in the passengers seat. It may not even happen immediately after the event but can take time to develop and hit months/years later. There is no determination who gets affected in this way.

The changes I am talking about is how I have crippling bouts of anxiety and panic attacks. It is fucked up and a direct result of the trauma of the affair.

SisterMilkshake, I'm sorry you are having panic attacks. For me, pre A and during, I had regular bouts of anxiety/panic attacks. I believe they were situational stress induced. Interestingly enough, after Dday, I have not experienced any anxiety attacks which is surprising considering the amount of stress that happened. Possibly because I am not hiding any more.

My BS, on the other hand, did not have a panic attack prior to Dday even though she endured other serious traumas. I believe It was the severity of this trauma coupled with the past and memories that caused these changes for her. With therapy, she has improved a lot and is able to manage the triggers better. I do feel shitty (understatement) that what I did is the catalyst for these changes in her.


PS. Your taglines make me laugh. I can relate to them.


My Boundaries are firm: Trespassers will be shot on sight.

Posts: 89 | Registered: Oct 2011
noescape
Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:07 PM, July 15th (Monday)

The wayward inflicted the trauma willingly, whereas the BS was a victim of that trauma. How may a wayward post that?

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, July 15th (Monday)

I really am not understanding your point here, UO. Are you speaking to BS's that you feel "punish" their WS's? That continually punish? What exactly is this punishment? Who does this and what does it look like?

Because, frankly, I don't see that a lot here on SI. Yes, definitely in the beginning most do go through that stage of extreme anger, lashing out, and maybe punishing. From what I see here, though, is that most BS's a few years out aren't in that stage anymore. Now, I am talking about the BS's here on SI.

In fact, what I see more of is BS's letting their WS's get away with all kinds of mindfuckery and bullshit.

I do see it more in the Wayward forum. WS's talking about what I would deem abuse from their BS's. These BS's, for the most part it seems to me, are not members here at SI. Because if any BS posted about them treating their WS abusively they would get jumped all over.

I don't feel saying something sarcastic 3 years after d-day when triggered is abuse. If I am still triggering, he needs to know it. Yes, I probably could be more gentle, but, ya know, a trigger isn't gentle....... and these were not my choices, either.

The biggest choice I would have liked to have was my FWH asking me or telling me he was going to go f*ck someone else so I could have made a choice right then. Having the choice afterwards "of my consequences", really isn't a choice.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, July 15th (Monday)

We cross posted, UO, now I understand what you are saying, I think.
It's the internal damage that can wreck on a person if that isn't in line with their value system and who they want to be.
Yes, I do agree with that. I am okay being a sarcastic bitch sometimes.

eta: the times are way off because I was interrupted half way through my post to make dinner.

Thanks for your kind words, lostmylight. I am glad that my taglines can make you laugh. My FWH relates to them as well!

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 6:49 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, July 15th (Monday)

I think a positive recovery requires that a BS ultimately achieve a higher state of Grace, and doing so requires hard work and support from both side to carry it for a long haul. If high level grace is not achieved, the BS continues to suffer, and then the WS suffers too. I would consider initial anger a normal reaction, a normal defense mechanism, but through time we must learn that long carried anger is unwise and counterproductive.

I often hear that we must work on ourselves in addition to our marriage. One thing I had to work on was the new me. Life changed me against my choice. The question is, which path do I want to choose to recover.

[This message edited by still-living at 7:20 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 741 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, July 15th (Monday)

There needs to be a levelling of the playing field in essence

Yeah, about that. That was exactly what I felt I was doing. Exactly. I knew I couldn't hit him back. I'd never have survived. Didn't want the marriage to end, at that point so I leveled the playing field...by lowering myself and destroying my values. That shit about killed me.

Oh, my "BS"? Yeah, he willingly heaped that on me.

If "leveling the playing field" doesn't impact your values or your integrity not a problem. If it does, you might find the betrayal of your actions hit you far harder than any outsiders ever could.

Did in my case. That was before I even knew that our bedroom had a riding trail through it. I'm surprised AAA didn't rate it.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:30 PM, July 15th (Monday)

t/j

Yeah, sister. You were the cause of my iPad being baptized when I first read it.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
GraceisGood
Member
Member # 17686
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Let me ask, how far do you think a wayward spouse would get if posting this on here? Doesn't make it not true, though, does it?

I think it would depend on how the WS posted such, if their history on SI demonstrated that they are not blameshifting or some such thing then hopefully it would be received for what it is and only what it is, not what could be implied or inferred.

Something I left out of my response was EMPATHY. Empathy is a huge factor in consequences I believe. I know I have foo issues, I know I do not see all things clearly, that I have negative tapes and filters, that I have limited life experience, that I have not walked a mile in my H's shoes, I do not know what it is like to be in his head or how his foo effected him. Although the mistakes and errors I have made in life are small in comparison to some, I can understand how they happen to a degree, I can understand messing up, disappointing oneself, etc. That empathy colors my view of consequences on both sides. I think perhaps, some of the
WS who "take" more from their BS than others might do so from an unhealthy place, but some might from empathy and their realizations which foster empathy.

It's the internal damage that can wreck on a person if that isn't in line with their value system and who they want to be.[/quote

Because empathetic is one way I view myself I knew I could not yell, scream, call names, etc, even though I felt it inside. I could not do to him what I would not want done to me, plain and simple, not sure it was the best, he never has really seen the full extent of my pain clearly, but it who I AM (at this time).

Grace


We have a tendency to think the love offered us is a reflection of our worth and value.But in actuality,it's a reflection of the person that is giving it.We love out of who WE are-not because of who the receiver is.At least in terms of real love.TSMF

Posts: 3435 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: how far the east is from the west
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Sorry, UO, hope it isn't ruined!


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
FaithStricken
Member
Member # 34080
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Per UO: So interesting to see the consensus the affair has NOTHING to do with the marriage or BS prior to dday (which is completely true). Seems like after dday it now has EVERYTHING to do with the marriage and the BS. BS's actions are because of the affair. The changes, impact, choices, all because of and about the affair.

This seems to be misconstruing the sentiment. The state of the marriage is not an acceptable excuse for the WS to have an affair. The state of the marriage may have played a part in a WS's self righteousness to decide to have an affair.

Many changes in the BS and the marriage post affair of course are directly related effects of the affair. I wouldn't go so far as to say any and all changes though because that would be a over generalization. Changes should occur as well for the WS (effects of the affair). The cause and effect relationship is necessary for healing and/or self preservation. For example, the effect of the affair is that the BS may need to find effective coping methods and expectations for the marriage such as transparency or communication would need to change as well. The BS may not have had the expectation for these changes without the impact of the affair.

[This message edited by FaithStricken at 7:48 PM, July 15th (Monday)]


Posts: 85 | Registered: Dec 2011
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Wow, Grace. You're an amazing person. The wisdom on this site is truly humbling. Every post on this thread is a testimony of that. I learn so much.

I had/have no empathy for my ex. I don't have any for myself either (or can you have self empathy?).

I do have understanding, though. Understanding is vital to me. I have to understand in order to process. It doesn't have to be pretty or sympathetic but if I can understand it acceptance is right around the corner, for me.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, July 15th (Monday)

This seems to be misconstruing the sentiment. The state of the marriage is not an acceptable excuse for the WS to have an affair. The state of the marriage may have played a part in a WS's self righteousness to decide to have an affair.

Could be. However, haven't seen many that would quote that last part. After, yep. In fact the affair becomes a third person, at times it appears.

I think the state of the marriage can be catastrophic. The choice to cheat is not because of that catastrophe, though. It's about the WS having the thought processes that enabled that choice to become a viable one. That always will be the WS's and only the WS's to own.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 9:08 PM, July 15th (Monday)

Usually when I've seen BS's on SI reference *consequences* it's directed towards a WS that's just thrown a fit about having to give up their *privacy* (passwords), or an opposite-sex friend, or their job, etc....

And when I've seen it used in regards to an argument or a bout of BS anger, it's due to being lied to, majorly TT'd, told to "get over it, stop living in the past", or a new *round* of cheating.

So I guess that's why I have a problem with this statement:

If you treated your wife/husband like something you found stuck to the bottom of your shoe for years what do you think the consequences for that is?

(According to Sultan, you resume cheating and lying. Which is a move that I don't recommend.) And a blame-shifty WS reading the quoted statement will feel as if they've died and gone to hog heaven.

But seriously, which came first? Because isn't a WS basically signalling that they don't value their marriage or BS? Throw in a LTA or a long-term serial cheater discovery and you've got a BS that's been treated like 'shoe shit' for a long time.

And then when you throw in a WS that has anger-perception problems...that just adds a whole new level of toxic to the stew. If you were to believe Sultan's *side* of this story, you would be convinced that he dealt with a raging banshee every day, all day for the past 5 years---and that is just absolutely false.
We had a completely non-A related discussion one day about a social issue that we had different opinions about. He said to me "I can see you're getting angry so we should drop this topic." I looked at him like he had grown a 3rd eye because I wasn't angry at all...heck, I didn't care what his opinion was--I just thought we were having a conversation)......but he saw my having a different viewpoint and not saying what *he* wanted me to say as *me* being angry.

I do think that there comes a point in time, though, where the balance shifts. If the BS is having frequent bouts of anger due to an unremorseful WS, s/he should cut bait because that is a miserable way to live. And if a WS is truly remorseful and their BS is still having frequent and major 'rage' issues a few years down the road, then it is on the BS to get a grip. Admit it's a dealbreaker and move on or seek out IC to work through the trauma. Physical abuse is wrong and expecting a remorseful WS to wear a sackcloth for the rest of their life is wrong, too.

Carry your own water, right?


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8007 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, July 15th (Monday)

But seriously, which came first? Because isn't a WS basically signalling that they don't value their marriage or BS? Throw in a LTA or a long-term serial cheater discovery and you've got a BS that's been treated like 'shoe shit' for a long time.

Yep. I sure was. Signaling it, stating it, yelling it.

Gonna, my point was consequences for actions is universal. My statement of treat your spouse like something stuck on the bottom of your shoe also universal and the consequences I attached is losing feelings. The common response for being treated like shit is you stop liking that person. Stop caring. Stop loving them.

If "you" don't have healthy coping skills and thought patterns you can make some real fucked choices when you find yourself in a less than perfect situation.

I was a BS LONG before I was a WS. I never knew it though and I thank god I didn't. Had I known I'd never find out just how fucked up some of my thought processes were.

I stopped giving a shit AND I wanted revenge. I wanted to inflict pain. Wanted my pound of flesh.

It was then that I started eating myself, basically.

All situations aren't the same. My point was, and always has been, be careful with someone that treats you poorly. You can find out all sorts of very scary things about just how far you are willing to go to get retribution.

For some, it's not a problem as their moral compass is ok with that. For others it can destroy them.

This has nothing at all to do with labels or for those trying to find excuses. They will anyway and continue their crappy choices pointing fingers all the way.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 1:54 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)

My point was, and always has been, be careful with someone that treats you poorly. You can find out all sorts of very scary things about just how far you are willing to go to get retribution.

For some, it's not a problem as their moral compass is ok with that. For others it can destroy them.

Bingo. Your posts are resonating with me on this topic UO. I don't feel like I have anything to contribute here but it sure as hell is making me do some introspection. Thanks for this.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2742 | Registered: Oct 2012
RedRaven6500
Member
Member # 39626
Default  Posted: 6:47 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I just read this entire thread, and I cried. I don't want to be a martyr and I don't really want retribution (even though in moments of anger I have said I would, in reality, I don't), and I can see far enough down this road of my choices and consequences, that I can see sadness and uncertainty, but I have also seen some good things come from them as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is:

as a BS and as an educated adult; I am human, I make good and bad choices, I make mistakes. So does my WH. But his choices were different than mine, and the outcome vastly different. My life has now changed forever because I chose to stay with someone who also chose to "not look at" what the consequences would do to the both of us and our marriage. I chose to honor my vows, for better or for worse, and I will take my consequences and live with them, but they are mine to live with and no one will tell me how to "deal" with them or in what fashion or in what time frame. I definitely didn't tell my WH how to deal with his trauma of his A's, his FOO, his PTSD or insecurities. If he asked for my opinion, I gave it to him. I didn't even give him ultimatums, or tell him to break off any of the affairs, I didn't insist on NC, I only told him that I would give him another chance to prove his vows to me, like i had proven mine over the years. If he couldn't do it or disrespected our vows again, then I would have to go because my values and his were no longer in sync. No threats, just truth.

We are still a work in progress. I am having some issues with fWH as we speak, and I even posted earlier out of frustration and anger because he physically isn't here to talk it out. Again, I'm only human, doing the best i can with a situation that I never thought I would have to deal with. I just hope to deal with it, with as much respect and dignity to myself and my husband as I possibly can.


BW: Me 42, WH: Him 42, Married: 22 years
DD: 21, DS: 20 both in college
DDay: 22 Oct 2011
Year PAs/EAs started: 2004, possibly 2003
OW: 3 "serious" long-distance A's, several casual A's, some at the same time. Classy.
In R

Posts: 116 | Registered: Jun 2013
GraceisGood
Member
Member # 17686
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)

You can find out all sorts of very scary things about just how far you are willing to go to get retribution.

A year or two before d-day I saw a man who is friends with a convicted killer and he was asked how he could maintain his friendship knowing what his friend was convicted of and he replied that in his estimation, he himself has the capacity to kill another, thankfully he has not and he will not ever harm another in that manner, but knowing he had that capacity which so far has stayed in check causes him to not see any difference between him and his friend other than his friend did not keep it in check one time and that he could someday also wear the label his friend does.

I do not call myself a faithful spouse really, so far I am faithful, but until I die, I will not really be able to claim that label because I know we all have the capacity to let ourselves down, I have done it in other areas myself.

Yes, I think many of us do not really realize what we are capable of both negative and positive.

grace


We have a tendency to think the love offered us is a reflection of our worth and value.But in actuality,it's a reflection of the person that is giving it.We love out of who WE are-not because of who the receiver is.At least in terms of real love.TSMF

Posts: 3435 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: how far the east is from the west
wert
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Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)

My point was, and always has been, be careful with someone that treats you poorly. You can find out all sorts of very scary things about just how far you are willing to go to get retribution.

Ain't that the truth. I really do believe this thread is about how a BS heals themselves. There are many paths and we all must chose are own.

I read a great book once called ACT with Love. It's about mindfulness and how it applied to relationships. It allowed my to step back from my situation and evaluate. I always have had a good compass. I mean not perfect but my thought processes were pretty good. They got pretty far out of whack pretty quick after dday. In many ways I was no longer acting on my values but instead on retribution and anger. She owed me, entitlement anyone?

When I realized that I allowed my W's actions to change who I was and how I behaved I did a quick 180. That is not who I am. I was never a doormat nor will I be one. I was also not the revenge filled anger person that I became. That was on me. That was my behavior. My W's A didn't make me do shit. I used it as an excuse to change my behavior and it was wrong. I am not a response machine and I have prided myself on not being one but to a certain degree that is what I became after dday.

That all said I don't feel all that bad about it. Trauma and crisis change people. I got tossed into a situation that I had no idea how to deal with. Never been there so to speak.


Great thread. Complicated topic. People should read and learn.

take care....



Posts: 1428 | Registered: Jan 2012
sri624
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Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

my h was a monster...i mean...he just was....a damn monster. i have seen all of his ugliness. and he has hurt me in ways that i never imagined. he did that.

but you know what? like my mother and ic say to me often..."you took his ass back...do YOU want to be unhappy forever..fuck him, what about you?" i know clearly what i am dealing with, what he has done, and what he is capable of doing...and took him back anyway. i know all the risks...and the consequences of doing so. and i dont want to live in a state of sadness everyday for a decision that i conciously made to stay. no way.

and you know what? i dont want to be sad, angry, and a bitch of a wife to him forever...i dont want to do that to myself or my child. for me, it is all about my addiction which is co-dependcency. i relied on him, and what he did or didnt do to make me happy....and it never works...never.

i am no where near being healed right now...i am not...but i do see the other side...that if i do the work on myself...which i should have been doing all along, i can be happy and healthy whether i am with him or not. there is a strength that comes with that understanding...a peace. and he is doing everything he needs to do to help save our m.

sure, i have my boundaries firmly in place now...and i will leave him...yesterday if he cheats again...without hesitation...you can believe that. but with us both doing the hard, painful work to get healthy individually, i think we have a good shot.
that is why i think ic is so important for a BS. i think it is important to learn how to share our feelings of sadness, anger, and pain in a constructive way. it doesnt always have to be world war 3. and sometimes the ic is the better place in some situations to really vent and 'go there" rather than with the wayward all the time...especially if i am deciding to stay with him.

what helps me is when my h tells me that that he is here to help me heal "no matter how long it takes." see, i dont want it to be unhappy forever either....i want to be happy too...and i am taking steps with ic to heal, but i need for him to man up and take my wrath...no matter how uncomfortable it may be....that is the consequence for screwing around....things arent good at home. but have some hope that they will get better. if he cant take it, and the anger that he receives from me is too great...and he wants me to get over it...and i am not...then he can bail. it will take as long as it will take.

and i dont think i would want his ass anyway if he did want to bail because it got so hard.

Lost - your post inspired me. thank you.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 942 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 7:34 PM, July 20th (Saturday)

I guess in a nutshell you are saying something to the effect can a BS be abusive? Is there a time when one should get over it or move beyond? If the WS never came clean, continually lied, trickled truth, never stop communicating with the AP that may in itself be the reason for the perceived verbal abuse.

Sad to say but most WS do not come clean and execute a NC with their AP. It's often a slow and painful process that takes many years of dedication. This is some serious shit as the Adultery is the only acceptable reason given in the bible for divorce. It is the first institution created by GOD and the glue that was to solidify the marriage making the two one.

The WS and the BS feel like shit. The BS doesn't get a kick out of the emotional crazies. Eventually, when they are healthy enough things will get better, but until then....


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, July 20th (Saturday)

I guess in a nutshell you are saying something to the effect can a BS be abusive? Is there a time when one should get over it or move beyond? If the WS never came clean, continually lied, trickled truth, never stop communicating with the AP that may in itself be the reason for the perceived verbal abuse.

Nope, not a nutshell. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not sure how else to say this. Stop looking externally. I'm stating "your" actions have consequences...to yourself. Period. REGARDLESS of another's actions towards you. Life isn't a fucking tennis game. You lob, I smash.

You are changed by your own actions and choices. Not just the shit people pile on your plate.

This isn't a BS WS deal. Why is that so hard? It sure isn't when presented the other direction, now is it? How often have you read on here "doesn't matter how shitty you were to your spouse it was THEIR choice to cheat". Yep. It sure was. 100%. And most WS's on this site, at least, will tell you that choice was the most fucked up thing they every did. Not just to their BS but to themselves as well.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, July 20th (Saturday)

If it were only a matter of feelings, or the A was the only negative aspect of the the BS was dealing with at the time one might be able to control their feelings or responses.

A not only screws up the social aspects of the relationships, but many BS and their families financially destitute. Your position sounds as though you are telling the victim to keep a stiff upper lip and don't let it get you down.

To be cheated on when you are ill, pregnant, going through some other crisis and to be faced with a stressor that rates with death is not uncommon. Infedelity amongst survivors of breast cancer is extremely high. Not to slight the men.

The WS can control their behavior but they have no control over how their spouse responds.

Death, murder, are real consequences. It happens today as well as in ancient scriptures. Its no joke.

Having been through a load of negative trials lasting for years no less, I can say its during the shit and pain and maybe a little crazy that causes growth. Everyone arrives at their destination at their appointed time.

[This message edited by ifinallyfoundme at 11:50 PM, July 20th (Saturday)]


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 12:37 AM, July 21st (Sunday)


A not only screws up the social aspects of the relationships, but many BS and their families financially destitute. Your position sounds as though you are telling the victim to keep a stiff upper lip and don't let it get you down.

My position is about as far from that as it gets. Perhaps there's some projection going on here. No where do I tell anyone to keep a stiff upper lip.

Oh, and divorce does the same thing. Leave families in ruin as do many other things, alcoholism, drug abuse, DV, gambling, shopping addictions...

Death and murder are consequences of infidelity? Ok, by that logic affairs can be consequences of fucked up marriages. Does that work? Nope. Never has and never will. Affairs are fucked choices by those that make them, period.

If someone shoots someone they and they alone are responsible for pulling that trigger. There are not two sets of rules in life. Owning your choices is part of your responsibility to yourself.

Blaming another for your choices using the others actions to excuse yours is one of the main reason this site exists. Any wayward here will attest to that shitty logic.

"The WS can control their behavior but they have no control over how their spouse responds."

Very true. Their spouse does. They control how they respond. That's my entire point...right there. Beautifully stated.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 12:40 AM, July 21st (Sunday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 5:33 AM, July 21st (Sunday)

Oh, and divorce does the same thing. Leave families in ruin as do many other things, alcoholism, drug abuse, DV, gambling, shopping addictions...

I believe we are in agreement here, however I would add that divorce/adultery affects a far greater percentages of families than the other ills and rates at the top of the list of stressors.

Death and murder are consequences of infidelity? Ok, by that logic affairs can be consequences of fucked up marriages. Does that work? Nope. Never has and never will. Affairs are fucked choices by those that make them, period.

If someone shoots someone they and they alone are responsible for pulling that trigger. There are not two sets of rules in life. Owning your choices is part of your responsibility to yourself.

There are just too many instances were spouses experience such a high degree of emotional stress from an affair, death resulted, and the individual got off with temporary insanity, crimes of passion. Not that cut and dry.

Good and horrible experiences not only affects a persons behavior or coping skills, but also the chemical makeup of the brain.

The fog many waywards go through has a very real physical component involving hormones and endorphins.

Uniting with a harlot or a man-ho can become a drug as it starts with a poor choice but involves much more than logic.

Each person must find their path through this mess. A don't have to end marriages or define those involve.

If both are willing, and for me submit to the head of the triangle the relationship can be stronger and better. Not because of the A but inspite of the affair and the healing that comes from the head.

[This message edited by ifinallyfoundme at 5:43 AM, July 21st (Sunday)]


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 5:57 AM, July 21st (Sunday)

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

Here I feel you are blaming the BS for their pain.

Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
SBB
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Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, July 21st (Sunday)

Choose the behaviour, choose the consequences is relevant to every single one of us.

I used to think I paid my consequences for staying in a shit M by being betrayed. It was then his turn to pay the consequences after DD.

Then in False R I realised whether or not I stayed in that M we both had to pay the piper. Staying didn't avoid it. Leaving didn't avoid it.

I much prefer the consequences of leaving than the consequences I would have faced in staying.

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

Flash of anger in me here. Too true.

I was desperately unhappy in that M well before DD, well before he actually cheated.

He betrayed me well before he actually cheated.

Much of my anger is/was at myself. Especially post DD. I was enraged.

In a sick, twisted way DD felt.... GOOD.

I felt vindicated. For so long I made it out to be not good enough to stay, not bad enough to leave. NOW it was bad enough to leave.

Finally, thank fuck for that. And its not my fault. Feels good. So good.

It burns me to write it but there it is.

His betrayals were not my fault. My betrayals of myself were my fault. I didn't mind that. It felt good to hurt myself post-DD. The rampage after the numb was shocking in its intensity.

In administering my own pain it felt like I was regaining control. Then I had a "Fight Club" epiphany. It was me administering it all along.

He was living his fucked up life more true to his character than I was. He had given up the act years ago but for a few nostalgic performances yet I continued my act.

My rage had nothing to do with the fact that he fucked around and everything to do with the fact that he did it EVEN THOUGH I humiliated myself and tolerated a shit marriage for so damn long.

It sucks that I can't blame him for me staying, having children with him. It sucks hard.

I hate your posts sometimes UO. I really do. I hate your fucking torch because it burns my eyes.

ETA: Case in point. I refuse to identify as a madhatter. Not because it makes me a WS, that is quite uncomfortable but that's not really why. Its because it makes him a BS... that makes me fucking livid. One day I'll be ready to dig into that but right now just saying it out loud is enough.

[This message edited by StrongButBroken at 7:18 AM, July 21st (Sunday)]


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5560 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, July 21st (Sunday)

Here I feel you are blaming the BS for their pain.

Here I feel that regardless of how far from what I'm saying that is you'll see it that way regardless.

I'm sorry you're hurting.

Strongbutbroken, I feel ya. I hated the realizations behind many of my posts. I loved the rage. I reveled in it. My safety. My retribution for every blow. For his lies of love and protection. He knew what I had been through. He hated my mother along with me. Only to inflict his own twisted brand.

He could have fucked half the town (and most likely did) and not hurt me as bad.

In spite of all that...I did the worst damage to me. The one I'm still healing from. The scar that's the deepest. If anyone thinks that their own actions and choices don't change them...don't carry their own consequences...they're fooling themselves.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
20WrongsVs1
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Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, July 21st (Sunday)

There are just too many instances were spouses experience such a high degree of emotional stress from an affair, death resulted, and the individual got off with temporary insanity, crimes of passion.

IFFMe, let's say a jury acquits a BS who killed a WS due to temporary insanity or heat of the moment. The BS is still to blame for the death; the WS didn't "make them" commit murder.

We are all responsible for our own feelings. Nobody can "make" us feel or do anything; we are each responsible for our choices. "What others say and do may be the stimulus for, but never the cause of, our feelings." From the book I'm currently reading, and highly recommend: Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.

Before my A's I cultivated anger and resentment toward my BH for what he did or didn't do to "make me" feel good about myself. Now I am committed to truly and deeply loving and accepting myself, so if a month goes by without BH telling me I'm pretty, I won't feel the need to seek third-party validation. Because only I can choose to be happy and fulfilled, from within. BH can't "make me" feel anything, and while clearly my actions were profoundly disrespect and unjustified--ultimately (after the initial shock) he must choose how to feel about himself, me, and our M. Nothing I do can "make him" sad or angry; I don't have that kind of power.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 1:29 PM, July 21st (Sunday)]


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1185 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
trytoforgive
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Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, July 21st (Sunday)

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

Here I feel you are blaming the BS for their pain.

Wait... What? I always feel like I need to "take up for" UO when she is PERFECTLY capable of taking up for herself, but this seems like a ridiculous statement to me.

If you know any of UO's back story, you know that, while she went through a whole mess of shit in her marriage (and life) the consequences she suffered from the most are from HER choices that went against HER belief system. She was, I think, posting that statement as a WS.

I truly believe that when we as WSes dig deep and figure out wtf went wrong, we realize that we betrayed ourselves just as much as we betrayed our spouse.

I remember, about 3 years after d-day, my H asked me what I would do if I saw my AP. I said, "nothing. He is a non-entity. I feel nothing, therefore I would do nothing." He asked me why I wouldn't tell him off or yell at him or scream that he had ruined my life or my H's life. I said, "The AP didn't ruin my life. He didn't have any stake in my life. I did. I fucked up my own life with my own fucked choices- not him." My H reaction was strange to me. He told me that he wanted me to react because of him- because of how he felt. Like I need to spend the rest of my life doing things or not doing things because they might hurt him. What would that say about me? How would I have healed if I was only reacting for someone else?

At the end of the day, I'm the one that has to look in the mirror and like what I see. I was a people pleaser all of my life. I'm not interested in people pleasing anymore. To be clear, I am also not interested in hurting my family. I know that not everyone has the luxury of a broken, remorseful WS, but my H had that luxury. I can stop the bleeding. I can fix the parts that I broke. And I did. Honesty, NC, IC, sobbing, snotting, begging... (Looking back, I am actually ashamed at a lot of my reactions, because they were so co-dependent.) But I was truly remorseful. It just took me a few years to realize that I had hurt myself just as much-if not more. My affair was not a consequence of his gambling, alcoholic, porn-addicted behavior. It wasn't even a reason. If I had been healthier, I would have left that marriage.

I think about that time of my life and I cringe. I am embarrassed that THAT was me. I am embarrassed that I shut down and got drunk every night and had an A. Really, the only person I can heal fully is myself. I truly believe that life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we respond. I responded horribly and painfully- to everyone around me. My growth and true healing came when I realized that the person to whom the consequences of my actions matter the most is... Me.

[This message edited by trytoforgive at 11:39 PM, July 21st (Sunday)]


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
ifinallyfoundme
Member
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Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, July 22nd (Monday)

IFFMe, let's say a jury acquits a BS who killed a WS due to temporary insanity or heat of the moment. The BS is still to blame for the death; the WS didn't "make them" commit murder.

What about blind rage. I'm not advocating murder, but does a person have the capacity to make sound judgement in those instances?

We are all responsible for our own feelings. Nobody can "make" us feel or do anything

Emotions are very complex and feelings are manipulated daily to cause consumers to make purchases. It's ok and normal to feel pain after a betrayal like adultery.
I can't get with a person being solely responsible for their own pain, its like blaming the BS all over again.

Now if an individual becomes stuck or obsessive in re-living the acts I would suggest some assistance in sorting out their emotions.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
20WrongsVs1
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Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, July 22nd (Monday)

It's ok and normal to feel pain after a betrayal like adultery.

Absolutely agree, but isn't it also possible not to feel pain in those circumstances?

feelings are manipulated daily to cause consumers to make purchases

They may attempt to manipulate feelings, but an advertisement can't cause me to purchase anything.

I don't claim to be right, nor do I seek to change anyone's opinion. But it is my firm belief that we are each responsible for our own feelings, and nobody can "make" us feel anything. It's a theory to which I paid lip service before my A's, but I am committed now to living it.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1185 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, July 22nd (Monday)

What about blind rage. I'm not advocating murder, but does a person have the capacity to make sound judgement in those instances?

Ah, yes, the blind rage. I'm quite familiar with that justification. My ex used it quite a bit. He apparently was in it a fair bit.

So, I'm thinking you feel infidelity is different...special...extenuating circumstances. I'm also familiar with this logic. In fact, you see it quite a bit from some waywards.

I used it. The rage I had from years of shit from my ex was quite eroding. I couldn't hit him back. Didn't want to leave so picked option "fuck yourself up even more". Finding out he fucked my closest friend and my God Daughter was actually my ex's was not condusive to "sound judgement".

I made the right choices that time. Told the BH and cut her out of my life. I don't EVER want to betray myself again. Ever. That pain is still with me. His choices, not so much. Although he recently came up with a new twist. Was able to work through that one with him still breathing and me holding firm.

Sure, people make crazy choices when stressed and pushed. I'll wager a few affairs happened during those times as well.

The simple fact is for some it won't matter. No matter what their choices it will always be someone else that "drove" them too it. I don't want anyone to control my life but myself. I'll pass on playing that card.

I face myself in the mirror every day. Through the kiddles finger prints I'm liking what I see. I LOVE those consequences.

Hey, trying, long time no see. Miss ya girl.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

He apparently was in it a fair bit.

So, I'm thinking you feel infidelity is different...special...extenuating circumstances. I'm also familiar with this logic. In fact, you see it quite a bit from some waywards.

I used it.

No blind rage as in you walk in on your spouse doing the nasties with someone else and fist swing or in some cases if a weapon is handy someone gets hurt. It's usually spontaneous or happens in the moment.

What you are speaking of is revenge which often time has no end.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

No blind rage as in you walk in on your spouse doing the nasties with someone else and fist swing or in some cases if a weapon is handy someone gets hurt. It's usually spontaneous or happens in the moment.

You have no idea what I dealt with in my marriage. I'm VERY familiar with spontaneous trauma. How about you stick to what you know and stop trying prove your point assuming.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
trytoforgive
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Default  Posted: 3:30 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

Hey, trying, long time no see. Miss ya girl.

Hey, mama. Missed you, too. I'm here everyday...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
MissesJai
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Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

t/j - hey TTF....


FWW - 41
Fawk you.....pay me!

Posts: 5913 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Unagie
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Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

I can't get with a person being solely responsible for their own pain,

Why? The cause of the trauma may be the WS but the pain and how it is handled yes is the BS who is responsible. What is the WS never wants to step up to the plate? What if they do but the pain doesn't lessen no matter what they do? There is a reason we tell you to focus on you and heal you first, because only you can do it.

Taking it from another angle and this may be met with jeers and anger but here goes. If a person is not responsible for their own pain then how many WS should be given a pass for their behaviors? Many, not all, but many state depression, neglect and emotional pain as the reason why they had an A. The A was their coping mechanism for dealing with the aforementioned pain. But they're waywards...so I guess they are responsible for their pain and the choices made as a result of that pain. I'm just saying a statement like that goes both ways, if not it is a justification for your own behaviors.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2742 | Registered: Oct 2012
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 7:33 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

Unagie, I'm sure there may be some, but I honestly have yet to meet any WS refer to the reasons for their affairs being related to trauma.
I maybe jeered but in the case of men I feel that women tend to over analyze certain behaviors. We live in an oversex society were men and women routinely worked together and most are looking their best.
Couple this with the value of sex being devalued, stressed families and marriages, co workers look much more appealing, less complicated, than home life. Their cheating is less about trauma and more about easy access. Most cheating occurs in the work place and women are not exempt.

Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
ifinallyfoundme
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Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

Uncertainone, no I wouldnot claim to know the details of your marriage, but to be betrayed by someone on such a personal level, blindsided, and say they are responsible for their own pain is something I can't agree with. If gets stuck and can't move on, then assistance is needed to help them move on.
Marriages can recover from some of the most horrific circumstances. Recovery is difficult but not impossible if two people are sincerely working on that goal. For me he has to place Christ first. I'm glad that u have found healing. For me I'd like to see more couples come together so that others may see them as an example of couples and inevitably families reconciling their differences.

Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

ifinallyfoundme, you've come into this thread with a clear agenda. You've cherry picked, twisted, and projected onto my posts. So this is my last response to you.

This thread wasn't about how "heat of passion" affects homicide sentences. It wasn't about dismissing or discounting pain...anyone's. It wasn't about explaining away or justifying betrayal. It wasn't about how much a spouse can hurt another.

It was a very simple concept. People's choices have consequences to themselves. Period.

There are BS's that have posted that they found that to be true in their cases as well. That regardless of another's horrific choices they found their own personal choices changing who they are and they didn't like the change they saw.

Very simple concept. Very big realization. No one escapes that. If your choices aren't affecting you in that way, fantastic. Then this particular thread isn't one you'd get much out of.

I love reading about reconciling couples as well. Not all do nor should they. It's nice to have all experiences represented. Some are able to learn from what others share. Some it doesn't resonate with at all. That's what makes this site so priceless. Different views.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 8:58 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

One addition because I can't edit.

I maybe jeered but in the case of men I feel that women tend to over analyze certain behaviors

I found your view of men, from another post as well, to be insulting and beyond offensive. I'm raising three boys. I hope they won't find many that have basically reduced them to cartoon caracitures you have. So sad.

To the men of SI. Thank you for your complexity and intelligence. You represent very well.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 8:58 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SBB
Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

I found your view of men, from another post as well, to be insulting and beyond offensive. I'm raising three boys. I hope they won't find many that have basically reduced them to cartoon caracitures you have. So sad.

^^Ditto. I'm raising girls and I would hate for them to see men or themselves that way.


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5560 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

To the men of SI. Thank you for your complexity and intelligence. You represent very well

Here! Here!

(t/j- Hi MJ! Love you, sister)


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Unagie, I'm sure there may be some, but I honestly have yet to meet any WS refer to the reasons for their affairs being related to trauma.

Oh boy, I do. Some of the waywards that show up here have mile long lists of FOO issues, married too young, whatever. My own husband claims the trauma of my affair changed him as a person and therefore - two affairs by him.


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4946 | Registered: Dec 2010
bytheboard
Member
Member # 37741
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Wow, I truly appreciate this thread- it is so helpful as this is the exact issue I have been dealing with in moving through the pain of the past year.

I really relate to a lot of what you have shared, UO. I survived an 11 year marriage that was beyond abusive- physical, sexual, verbal and emotional abuse up to and including locking me in a bathroom while I was in labor for eight hours. I never let that effect my core values... I worked like a prisoner of war to ensure escape but I never cheated or tried to hurt him in anyway. When I finally got out, I never bad mouthed him or tried to keep him from the children and I felt forgiveness for him in my heart. He burned himself out and is currently still in jail for beating his next girlfriend and hasn't seen his kids in four years. Through all of this, I never lost my sense of hope or optimism and even through multiple death threats and court hearings and having to take the kids and hide, I neve let him change the core of my heart.

So fast froward three years, I am doing well, working in a career helping victims of sexual and domestic violence and totally self sufficient and independent. Then I meet my current husband and we court, fall in love, marry and have a baby. Dday is 10 weeks after baby is born. I can't explain the destruction that ensued. All I wanted was to leave him, to get away from the hurt. I couldn't believe that I had opened up and trusted him in this way and this is what he did in return. I hated how he had told me that the fact I was a "survivor" had drawn him to me in the first place... If that meant so much to him, then how could he put me through so much more. His family stepped forward and said he was battling sexual addiction. He pleaded for a chance to go through treatment, face his demons and redeem himself. I felt obligated since he had also been abused and wanted to face that.

This is where the consequences and responsibility for choice come in. I stayed even though my gut said leave... This caused me to feel that I was being weak, which caused me to lose confidence in myself. Instead of addressing this dynamic , I began to seriously resent my WH for "putting me in this position". I was missing the fact that I was, by CHOOSING to stay, putting myself in this position.

Resentment, bitterness and anger sink in like poison and bit by bit, I was changing inside. I have always felt proud of my ability to be empathetic and compassionate... These have been my core values and what served me as a victims advocate for many years. And here my husband was, peeling back lay upon layer of trauma and neglect and I could barely muster up the ability to look at him without feeling hostility. Instead of looking at the self deprecating nature of the acts he had committed in his addiction and feeling compassion for him as a broken human, I was heaping more shame on him and showing him contempt and disgust. The consequence to me was that it took me further and further away from my core self and my core values and beliefs.

I had an epiphany last month when I had started to drink way to much and was relating to my husband mainly through sarcasm and telling him what he was doing wrong. I thought about what I hated the most about his infidelity was his sense of entitlement... His belief that he had to right to do what he did because of whatever justifications he might come up with at the moment. I thought about how very much I hate entitlement in general... How I believe it is the true axis of most human evil. Then I thought of my actions over the past several months... And I realized that I was acting out of entitlement.... "He hurt me so bad, he destroyed my dreams, he has trapped me with lies, he took all the best for himself... Etc."... So therefore I am entitled to be depressed, to disengage from my kids, to say hurtful things, to act angry and hostile... To not do the work it takes to heal the wound. It was an eye opener. I thought of how many times I would tell my son who has anger issues related to Asperger's syndrome that "no one can MAKE you angry" and that "you control your thoughts and your reactions". And there I was, absolutely not living the advice I give him.

I'm not saying that I am required to be a saint and that I don't have the right to feel hurt, angry, sad, etc.- but it is my responsibility to express these emotions in a healthy and non- abusive manner. It is up to me to decide if I can stay in the relationship or if it is a deal breaker. The only ethical or moral "consequence " I can give my husband is the decision to stay or leave. I can set boundaries that are requirements for R, I can convey to him the depth of my pain, and I can share with him how his actions have affected me, but I can not verbally abuse him, I can not treat him like he is "dirty"... I can not treat him in a way that lacks basic tenets of human dignity. If I do, it is ultimately ME who suffers the most, I suffer the loss of myself and I have no one to blame for that except me.

So I have been working hard to live this... When I feel disgusted by his actions, I try to hug him and think of the wounded boy that learned to cope in a way that made his life empty and full of deceit. When I am angry at him I work to remember anger is a secondary emotion and I try to uncover the fear or hurt beneath the anger so I can address that with him and when I can, it steals all the fuel from the fire.

It is a slow process, but it feels like finding my way back home. His infidelity left me feeling like I was on a strange continent with no map, phone or any sense of direction. Each time I act in accordance with my true self I feel a little less lost and to me that is the most positive "consequence" of all!!

Sorry so long but thanks so much for the place to share this process with others who are finding their way as well!


BW: sparrow 34
WH: 45 SA(regretswhatidid)
DDays: 9/3/12 ,9/10/12 ,9/12/12 ,10/01/12 ,12/03/12,more TT same events 2/24/12
3x ONS= 2CL hook-ups,1 on TDY
46 Craigslist Ads, AFF, chatrooms,
4EA w/past partners
4 kids

Posts: 55 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Virginia
bytheboard
Member
Member # 37741
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Sorry... Double post.

[This message edited by bytheboard at 9:52 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


BW: sparrow 34
WH: 45 SA(regretswhatidid)
DDays: 9/3/12 ,9/10/12 ,9/12/12 ,10/01/12 ,12/03/12,more TT same events 2/24/12
3x ONS= 2CL hook-ups,1 on TDY
46 Craigslist Ads, AFF, chatrooms,
4EA w/past partners
4 kids

Posts: 55 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Virginia
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

I found your view of men, from another post as well, to be insulting and beyond offensive. I'm raising three boys. I hope they won't find many that have basically reduced them to cartoon caracitures you have.

Wow, now this goes beyond polite conversation.
I also have several grown highly professionally trained sons who attended top schools and work in organizations that are in the top of their field. Guess what these guys are still virgins because they have adopted a belief system based on Christ.

I've never meant to imply that men are stupid or simple, however as a woman who is the only female of a very large all male family, friends, colleagues etc I will say that men think differently than women, respond differently especially in terms of sex, and we women tend to over analyze or feminize their behavior.
Those testicles aren't there for show.

[This message edited by ifinallyfoundme at 3:40 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

ifinallyfoundme, you've come into this thread with a clear agenda.

I came to this forum believing we all could express our views and opinions, after all opinions are like.....

I don't agree that people are responsible for the pain attributed to the trauma inflicted on them through infidelity. I ain't Spock and this isn't Star Trek. If an individual gets stuck I recommend the help of a good professional to help them to sort out their emotions. If you are healed by leaving fine, but if another individual decides to go the way of Gomer I'm here to cheer them on and support them. Recovery is hard as hell, but only those individuals involve are qualified to say when enough is enough in regards to pain.

Also for your info, I have an adult female daughter very much like her brothers who works in a male dominated profession and is very successful in what she does.

I really hate the current feminization of our men and boys....it's really starting to sound like a hen party.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

rachelc
My own husband claims the trauma of my affair changed him as a person and therefore - two affairs by him.

This type of behavior is so typical in BS pain. I'm not wanting to turn this into a theological discussion but there are so many statements/warnings in regards to the BS reaction to this situation.Two wrongs don't make a right.

[This message edited by ifinallyfoundme at 3:17 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

To the men of SI. Thank you for your complexity and intelligence. You represent very well.

I like Trucks.

I really like this thread as well. There is some insightful stuff on here.

In my (and only my opinion) It is a difficult realization that a BS has to make to break out of the victim mentality. I know that at around 8 months everything wrong with my life was JNRPA's fault. I could miss a traffic light, and I would find a way to blame the affair for it. I cycled into depression and basically became an angry, drunken, abusive, asshole. But that's not JNRPA's fault. I controlled my decisions to wallow, to turn to alcohol, to blame my unhappiness on her. Fuck, it is really easy to do as a BS.

I'm not healing...JNRPA's fault. I'm miserable at 8 month's out...JNRPA's fault. I'm short with the kids...Goddamnit JNRPA, I can't believe you did this to me and made me into such an asshole.

Fucking JNRPA ruined my life. And I can't fix it because JNRPA broke me. Oh well. I'll just keep being a miserable asshole until JNRPA fixes me. Wait...you mean she can't fix me? Well damnit JNRPA...that's your fault too.

Tricky stuff. I guess JNRPA started the landslide by pushing the Boulder off the cliff. But at some point, I had to accept my roll in helping us get out of the landslide. At some point I have to look at my actions, and accept that my actions are a result of my decisions and mine alone, and these actions all have consequences. I could choose to hide in a bottle, I could choose to continue to berate my wife. Or I could choose to be the man that I strive to be. JNRPA controls none of these decisions. They are mine alone.

It's funny, as a BS I have a ton of empathy for other BS's. But right now I am staying at my friends house while my family is in Washington (one more week till I get to join them!) My friend was a Wayward. Unremorseful as hell , and they got divorced. I have known him and his wife since we were all teenagers, and we remain friends with both he and his ex-wife. But it's been nearly three years since dday and two years after the divorce is final. She continues to be consumed by bitterness and anger. And I mean consumed. White hot fury of a thousand suns. For his part, he has come around a bit, accepts that he was to blame for the affair, accepts that it was a terrible decision and that it fucked up all their lives. But he does try to be a good dad, and he does try to treat his ex fairly.

I see her choice to hold on to the hate and anger. I see what it does to her on a daily basis, I see what it does to her kids. Her choice to harbor this poison has consequences. Miserable consequences. Is it her ex-husband's fault for blowing up their marriage...absolutely. But (in my opinion) it is her decision to harbor this anger and hate. He has no control over how she chooses to live her life. The anger and hate is her decision. (could have just as easily been me)

[This message edited by wonderboy at 4:47 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

total t/j here - wonderboy, you have come SO FAR in your healing. I am really proud of you.


FWW - 41
Fawk you.....pay me!

Posts: 5913 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

That just brought tears to my eyes. Thanks MJ.

Someone must be chopping onions in this office.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

{Nevermind... I decided to leave it alone, for now.}

ETA: wb, my shocked look had nothing to do with your post. After looking back at it, I realized it could look that way and wanted to clarify.

[This message edited by ThoughtIKnewYa at 8:24 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 11674 | Registered: Mar 2008
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Fucking JNRPA ruined my life. And I can't fix it because JNRPA broke me. Oh well. I'll just keep being a miserable asshole until JNRPA fixes me. Wait...you mean she can't fix me? Well damnit JNRPA...that's your fault too.

and

She continues to be consumed by bitterness and anger. And I mean consumed. White hot fury of a thousand suns. For his part, he has come around a bit, accepts that he was to blame for the affair, accepts that it was a terrible decision and that it fucked up all their lives.

Maybe I'm missing something, a past post etc, but these two scenarios describe individuals that were stuck.

Did either scenario involve continued infractions while trying to recover? Seems as though you are describing individuals who are holding on or stuck.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 6:13 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Depends on how you define "stuck." When does the term "stuck" start to apply to an individual in a circumstance? A year, 6 months, 3 months, a week?

Does it make a difference how long since Dday it's been? And if so, what's the defining line? Is it an equation based on the amount of TT, or broken NC?

No matter how long it's been, a bs is just as accountable for their actions as a wayward is. Sure, a BS's actions are viewed as justified because they are in agonizing pain...but a BS's actions are still their own. It sucks that they are in tremendous pain (believe me, I get that). And society may excuse their actions based on the trauma. But that doesn't change the fact that each individual is ultimately responsible for the consequences of their actions.

One of the individual is me from about 6 months after Dday until almost a year after dday. Was I stuck...sure. Were there continued infractions? Yup, broken NC, TT, and a blame shifting spouse. Stuck or continued infractions, it doesn't relieve me from the ownership of my actions.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

You've mentioned "stuck" several times:

If an individual gets stuck I recommend the help of a good professional to help them to sort out their emotions.

Could you explain what you mean by "stuck?"

ETA: cross-posted with WB

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 6:15 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1185 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 6:46 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

One of the individual is me from about 6 months after Dday until almost a year after dday. Was I stuck...sure. Were there continued infractions? Yup, broken NC, TT, and a blame shifting spouse. Stuck or continued infractions, it doesn't relieve me from the ownership of my actions

You've defined here the reasons for your continued pain. With each infraction over a period of time the wound was reopened. It seems as though you weren't able to go through the natural progression of grief and loss.

But even so with each new revelation you are allowed to experience pain. There is no time limit as I would imagine it would vary depending on factors such as age of the individuals involved, life experiences, culture, religion, length of the affair, discovery of the A, children born out of the affair etc.

I still can't get with people being responsible for their pain after such a traumatic experience.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

I still can't get with people being responsible for their pain after such a traumatic experience.

Yeah- so you've said...

Nobody here has said that the PAIN of the BS is their fault- not one. The pain of the BS (caused by the blow of the affair) is on the WS. The ACTIONS of the BS are on the BS. Period. Why is that so hard to get?


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

I still can't get with people being responsible for their pain after such a traumatic experience.

I didn't say this, however I do think a BS can be responsible for their pain after a traumatic experience.

For example, a BS decides that he won't go on anti-depressants, as a result he is unable to function at work and leaves his lucrative job. Then because he is miserable, he sits on the couch for 5 months wallowing. Can't look for a job "because of the affair." Resorts to drinking. Still doesn't look for a job. Gets bitter. Blames his wife for him not having a job. Takes it out on the kids. Feels shitty about that but it's not his fault, his wife fucked up his life. During this time, his wife is demonstrating real remorse, but he can't see it. He doesn't have a job because of her, he can't sleep because of her, he drinks because of her. He is fucking miserable.

So it's his wife's fault for this much pain? Or did the BS (me) make a decision to quit my job. Did I make a decision to not look for a new one? Did I make a decision to wallow?

At a year out, aren't my decisions contributing to my pain? Do I get a free pass for that because my wife cheated on me? Do I get to be a jerk to my wife and family because she cheated?

Infidelity sucks. It's terrible. But I am responsible for the misery that I created as well. Yes my wife is responsible for the pain she initially caused. But my actions still have consequences, and, in my case, my decisions and my actions caused me additional pain, and caused my family additional pain. That's not on JNRPA, that's on me.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 7:44 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:31 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

iffm,

Why are you having such a hard time with the concept of a BS being responsible for actions, not pain?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4880 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:34 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

^^^ to wonderboy and trytoforgive.

Exactly. It's not the pain that another inflicts upon you that you're responsible for...it's your actions/reactions that follow that pain. If you do stuff that will hurt you, yourself following the pain---whether it be physically, emotionally, mentally, financially, what have you---YOU are responsible for those choices, unrelated to what brought you to that point.

Anything else is just excuses.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 7:34 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2148 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Guess what these guys are still virgins because they have adopted a belief system based on Christ.
I don't even understand why you brought this into this discussion, iffm. So only people who follow Christ's teachings will chose to be virgins? Also, how do you know they are still virgins? Do you think the time they lose their virginity they are going to call up mama and tell you? Glad you are proud of the fact, but really, I am not, and many others, aren't impressed. Do you think staying a virgin until married deters adultery? Doubt it very much.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Wanted to add, that simply put, iffm, it is the reaction to the pain that is thrust upon us that we are responsible for. The pain doesn't make us do anything, we still make choices.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9662 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
noescape
Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 9:00 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

UO, as someone else said, I hate your posts, they really do make me think so hard and feel like I have to 'take them down' only to learn that they take me up. "Curse you agent P" (as doof would say).

I almost had an onion peeling moment here myself

When I feel disgusted by his actions, I try to hug him and think of the wounded boy that learned to cope in a way that made his life empty and full of deceit. When I am angry at him I work to remember anger is a secondary emotion and I try to uncover the fear or hurt beneath the anger so I can address that with him and when I can, it steals all the fuel from the fire.

Thank you, you just gave me a lot to think of and feel. In the end, it's our choices who make us what we are, and rather than look for what is societally a 'pass' for our reaction to a trauma, I think what's more important and being discussed here is whether we continue to allow ourselves to be defined (for ourselves) by something that is not necessarily relevant to who we are or want to become.

Ok, I'll shut up now since wb said it so much better.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Wonderboy,

I don't know the circumstances of your friends' infidelity implosion.

But it's rather typical for a WS who has an affair and gets divorced to act baffled and clueless and self-righteous as to why a BS is not being "reasonable" over having her life imploded with divorce, and for not wishing to be "friends" as if nothing happened and "reward" him by cooking his Thanksgiving dinner and inviting him over, too.

Your WS friend detached from his BS, possibly without her knowledge, and is far longer ahead of the "over her" part than she is of the shock of infidelity. Three years is a short time to be past the loss of her dreams and life as a family for her kids, anger over what his actions have done to the kids and loss of her own dignity.

Will she need to get to some New Agey "growth" stage in the future. Yes. But some of us don't see life as neat little compartments that stop here, curtain drops, new life begins and "Oh well, that's done."


Please consider that your friend's bitter ex-wife may indeed be more aware of what he's done to the kids' lives than he is aware. She may have more of an understanding of the consequences of what her WS did for her life, their kids' lives in the future, than he may have, since he's proved to be short-sighted in the past.

Decisions made in the past continue to ripple into the future as tsunamis over kids' emotional health, teen year drug use or acting out, and the financial consequences that can last for many years to come.

A kid with college loans because dad blew the college fund on his new life with an OW - his costs of living apart from his BS and kids in - will affect those kids many, many years into their jobs and their own families when their lives are stressed with college debt on top of trying to pay for rent, cars, insurance.

Your friend's BS may have a more acute vision into the future than he has - and financial strains upon kids that were needless to have placed on them - and it's why she's upset watching it all unfold while he thinks "that's all in the past."

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 10:21 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yeah- so you've said...

Nobody here has said that the PAIN of the BS is their fault- not one. The pain of the BS (caused by the blow of the affair) is on the WS. The ACTIONS of the BS are on the BS. Period. Why is that so hard to get?

UO stated on the 15th

My posts looked very much like those I read in general and just found out. What did he expect when he chose to do what he did to me for fucking years.

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

UO had plenty of opportunities to clear this point up.


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
ifinallyfoundme
Member
Member # 39523
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

UO also stated -
I found your view of men, from another post as well, to be insulting and beyond offensive. I'm raising three boys. I hope they won't find many that have basically reduced them to cartoon caracitures you have. So sad.

To the men of SI. Thank you for your complexity and intelligence. You represent very well.

and
SMS

I don't even understand why you brought this into this discussion, iffm. So only people who follow Christ's teachings will chose to be virgins? Also, how do you know they are still virgins? Do you think the time they lose their virginity they are going to call up mama and tell you? Glad you are proud of the fact, but really, I am not, and many others, aren't impressed. Do you think staying a virgin until married deters adultery? Doubt it very much.I don't even understand why you brought this into this discussion, iffm. So only people who follow Christ's teachings will chose to be virgins? Also, how do you know they are still virgins? Do you think the time they lose their virginity they are going to call up mama and tell you? Glad you are proud of the fact, but really, I am not, and many others, aren't impressed. Do you think staying a virgin until married deters adultery? Doubt it very much.I don't even understand why you brought this into this discussion, iffm. So only people who follow Christ's teachings will chose to be virgins? Also, how do you know they are still virgins? Do you think the time they lose their virginity they are going to call up mama and tell you? Glad you are proud of the fact, but really, I am not, and many others, aren't impressed. Do you think staying a virgin until married deters adultery? Doubt it very much.

So if someone tries and slams me in regard to their raising of their sons am I not allowed to respond ? Is my opinion less valid? Are all men screwing around...if not are they mama's boys? Wow

It has been an interesting topic so why can't we agree to disagree without getting our panties in a bunch.

Also their purity is not to impress you but to presented as a gift to their wives. It also serves as beacon that all men ain't doing it, and they also are not the stereotypical socially inept and unattractive males. Loving Green. And yes if both parties enter the marriage as virgins, there is a higher success rate.

[This message edited by ifinallyfoundme at 1:17 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Heavy Sigh,

I get what you are saying. I remain friends with the wife as well (in fact, she and her kids are up in washington with my wife today).

I am in no way attempting to discount her pain, I was using their situation as an example without going into too much detail.

In their situation, I see some of the choices that she continues to make at 3 years out, and I get them, but they are choices that result in more pain. And as much as it's the Wayward's fault for blowing everything up, her, as the BS, has to recognize that her actions are increasing her pain. To be honest, I wish I knew how to help her, I tried directing her here, but to no avail.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I tried directing her here, but to no avail.
wb, what I've come to realize is that there are some people who need to hold on to that victim narrative in order to justify their behavior. It doesn't matter how you try to help them, they don't want it. They want to be the victim - it's the story they tell themselves day in & day out. If you take that story away, then what????


FWW - 41
Fawk you.....pay me!

Posts: 5913 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Red  Posted: 2:02 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

ifinallyfoundme...

After 15 posts on this thread and lots of jabs from you, we are asking that you step back from posting on this particular thread in the future.

Thank you.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

UO stated on the 15th

My posts looked very much like those I read in general and just found out. What did he expect when he chose to do what he did to me for fucking years.

Until...I was helped to see how his choices didn't create my pain. Mine did.

UO had plenty of opportunities to clear this point up.

I can imagine that if she would have wanted to clear it up, she would have. She states here what we've all been stating for about... 6 pages and 102 posts now. Our own choices and reactions to situations put our own selves in pain- and at times- those choices keep us there. This thread is about pain that we bring on OURSELVES with our own actions- both BS and WS.

It is not meant to minimize the pain that the WS' choices brought to the BS and the marriage. We all have choices. You get to choose how to respond to your husband in your own marriage. Those actions have consequences- good and bad. The pain of infidelity is a wretched form of abuse to bring into a marriage. Those of us WSes that do work and dig and get to a healing state realize that the pain we bring on ourselves is as bad if not worse than the pain we inflict on our BS. When we realize that we are sitting and soaking in a shit-bath of our own making- relationally and personally- then the healing can at least begin.

Regardless of whether or not a marriage survives infidelity, the WS and BS have to survive their own pain. And they get to choose to take the action to do just that, or not...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
Topic Posts: 104