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User Topic: Leaving the past in the past
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

When can the past be left in the past? Is there an expiration date on the As...

My BW and I have been discussing this over the past few nights, and we seem to be disagreeing. She feels like I'm being too detached, and I feel like she is being too emotional. We seem to have this issue a lot. I'm not detached, and I am as guilty as she is in letting my emotions get the best of me, but I think I'm able to control that part of myself better. I just think that bringing up the As and all that pain now, and on a regular basis is not for the best.

I'm not exactly sure how much emotion one is supposed to have about something that has happened, been discussed, and moved on from. In our case, my affairs ended last year. There was a period of time in which they were a huge part of our lives, but that time has passed. I don't see the need to discuss them on a regular basis. Is that wrong? If a new question arises that is actually important, then we should totally talk about it, but just taking ourselves back to that place doesn't seem like the best idea, if you can avoid it.

That isn't to say I'm refusing to discuss the topic, or answer questions, but more that I feel like we would be best served focusing on higher priorities. I look back at the amount of time, pain, money, and stress that was expended with the actual affairs, the fallout, and everything and I just think if we made a conscious decision then to move on, and leave it in the past it would have been better. Every moment we talk about the affairs, and fight, argue, cry is time and effort being stolen from more important things like our children, our family, and our lives today.

What happened was fucked up on my part, and I accept and understand that. What happened, happened though. I cannot go back and change who I was at the time, or who I was for most of our relationship. I am ashamed, and I have regrets but I realize all I can control is the future. I wish I could change what I did, but I can't. I think I've realized what I did wrong, and made corrections. Talking about things that happened in 2005 is not productive now, in my opinion.

Saying something like that seems like I'm being dismissive, and heartless. Which I am not trying to be, but it is what I believe. I have no desire to rehash the past at this point, and I think that is for the best. Not for me personally, but because its been talked to death. She'll always have doubts, and there is nothing we can do about that now. I am very willing to discuss infidelity/boundaries/relationships with other women as it relates to us today.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

What I want to you would get me kicked off this forum. What I WILL say is have you done any reading on how trauma affects a person? She needs to ask questions over and over so she can process this. It wiill NEVER be in the past, not for her. Are you good with that?


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 48
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Slide the weight from your shoulders and move forward. You are afraid you might forget, but you never will. You will forgive and remember."


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Dec 2010
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

What I struggle with is that it seems like it is so easy for me to just separate these things and realize that it is best to leave what happened in the past. I don't think the point if it is possible to forget and move on is best is debatable. The issue is if it is possible. For me, I think it is.

For her, it may not be, and I struggle with understanding that. Why can I do it, and she can't? I am committed to our marriage, so yes, I accept that it may never be in the past.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

Talking about things that happened in 2005 is not productive now, in my opinion.
Ah, but if I recall, your wife didn't know about 2005 till last year. And honestly, doesn't matter if she knew in 2005 or 2013.

My crap began in 2004-ish. We were married a year and some change. Did we call it an A? No. But there was serious issues and my husband knew something was up. Just couldn't quite put his finger on it. Now today, after all the devastation I've caused, we know what I was doing back then, we know how it happened, why it happened, etc.

And guess what? My husband is reprocessing that mess. He's going back in his mind, analyzing all my behaviors then, looking at all the red flags, and seeing it all in a completely different light. Who am I to say, "Ya know Babe, that was such a long time ago. Let's focus on today. Isn't the sky so blue!? Talk about riveting!"

He suffered a trauma. And he is still dealing with it. I'm not going to put an expiration date on when we're officially done talking about my crap decisions, package it all up with a pretty bow, and cram that sucker on a shelf. He talks as long as he needs to. And I'm ok with that.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6048 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

Oops. Double.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 12:41 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6048 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
stilllovinghim
Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I really hope this post doesn't blow up and result in you leaving or dismissing the advice, not saying that's what's happened thus far but the topic and POV can be a hot button around here.

I'm not saying that to discourage you from posting but just as a bit of advice. Nothing is taboo here, just know that a lot of folks here aren't going to pat your bottom and nod their heads in agreement. I'm glad you posted and are looking for help and I hope what I've been trying to delicately as possible say is understood.

Now my question is, have you read the posts here in the Wayward Forum, "How much does my BS Hurt?" &"Things That Every WS Needs To Know" I'll bump the threads since my phone can be a pain when it comes to copying and pasting text.

If you read the posts, what did you get from them? Do you feel you could relate to any of it? Was there anything about it you didn't agree with or understand? I think reading those two posts and coming back to this thread will really help as a "jumping-off" point.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 12:57 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
Lucky2HaveMe
Member
Member # 13333
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

Some people are good at compartmentalizing - some aren't. I would guess you are. You can tie it all up in a box in the back of your mind never to be thought of again. My H is the same way. It's a convenient way to rugsweep, IMO.

I would bet JM is not a compartmentalizer. Nor am I. I can tell you 7 years out we still talk about it - not as frequently, and it doesn't bring the gamut of emotions with it that it used to, but it is still part of who we are and it will be FOREVER. It's like a scar - never goes away; it is there as a reminder of what happened.

You guys are only about a year out. That is such a short amount of time. Add to that the pregnancy and new baby, her processing has been interrupted by life events. Cut her some slack and have some compassion. I can tell you that there is nothing worse for a BS than a WS that has the "just get over it and stop thinking about it already" attitude.

This kind of trauma is often compared to grieving. She is grieving the man she thought you were vs the man you were vs the man you claim to become. Can you wrap your mind around that, considering your long list of misbehaviors? It's a lot. And there are a lot of stages of grief - read up on them, and you will understand that this roller coaster goes on indefinitely. If she had lost a child or a parent or a close friend just a year ago, would you be telling her to just bury it and move on? I would hope not.

ETA: You say you think you have figured out why you behaved so shamelessly during your entire relationship with JM. Have you worked through that in counseling? What have you done to make her feel safe? What changes have you made? These aren't necessarily questions to answer here, but with JM. In the past you have had the attitude of
"I am who I am."
"I like me"
"If I change,I will lose a part of me that is important"

Have you worked on that attitude? Again, not trying to call you out in "public," but these are topics you and JM should be continually discussing as a couple as well as in counseling.

[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 1:07 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


Indian wisdom says our lives are rivers. We are born somewhere small and quiet and we move toward a place we cannot see, but only imagine. From Tending Roses

Posts: 5999 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: WNY
TXwifemom
Member
Member # 37945
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

If she was abused as a child, and wanted to cry on your shoulder 30 years later, would you tell her she needs to let it go? Or would you be there?

The only difference is that you did this to her. And she has to deal with the questions and with you still.

We are a year out almost. I can tell you if my WH even hinted that he was tired of hearing it, I would call my attorney in the morning.

Just some thoughts from someone with the same timeline....


Posts: 231 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: texas
callmecrazy
Member
Member # 38765
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I see no stop sign. You sound a lot like my WH, so maybe I can try to put down something to help you understand this.

Yes, you are making steps to change. It can be appreciated and noticed by your W even though it may not be doing you any good at getting trust yet. You lied to her (if you TT'd just multiply the issues it caused her)for most of your marriage and basically 10years. Do you think that w 6 months good behavior she's ready to open up completely and let the guard down and not still be terrified of getting her guts ripped out again? MY WH was good (i thought) for 3 years after his initial offenses and BAM there went everything so he has to accept that no matter how hard I try, it will take him several years of me being a skeptic before I really can feel ok letting my guard down. My counselor gave me a timeline for these things that said it takes around 1 year for every 7 to really recover from these kinds of things. It took my mom 2 years to forgive my dad fully and move on after @ year of her wondering him doing TT and finally coming 100% clean.

This will take time, it will take consistency and it will take tons of work and effort. Just because she is very untrusting of you does not mean she isnt trying to work on it necessarily. IC for both of you is a good idea if you both arent already.

I read some of your other posts before commenting, you seem more concerned with it being noted you are being a good boy now than you do healing her from almost 10 years of what she likely feels was a sham marriage. Just because you may have changed overnight doesnt mean she can and if you really want to R you are going to have to show her you finally showed up to this marriage ready to go and accept its not going to be easy. And TRUST ME, if you are truly changing, she's noticing but it will take time for her to acknowledge it.

Kind of a, dont think Im gonna give you a cookie for doing what you are supposed to have been doing mindset.

I hope you didnt think this was crappy. I get things must be hard for a wayward trying bc as a BS i can say sometimes I am crazy at best and my mood swings can be borderline bipolarish. I just hope it helps you maybe see some of her thoughts and fears. Everyday Im waiting to find out the change isnt real yet. Ive known what he's done all along and he's been good to my knowledge for 2 months, but I question everything bc of the last 6 years.



Posts: 279 | Registered: Mar 2013
hopingforhappy
Member
Member # 29288
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I am not sure that you are really understanding that your A's are the past for you, but still the present for your BW. You lived through them, you know what happened--you have a big advantage here with regard to putting it in the past. Many people question the 2-5 year timeline for healing, but I have lived it and as far as I am concerned, it is very accurate. Your A ended last year--way too soon to be expecting your BW to begin putting it in the past.

She will at some point be able to do it. But every time you insist that she should, it delays her healing and hence delays that happening. You need to be prepared to be loving, kind and patient with her feelings re your A's until . . . . until she feels better. Under the right circumstances, she will eventually feel better, she might not always have doubts. But you have got to stop trying to control the process.

My FWH has said these same things to me many times. He has finally stopped, because he has finally come to understand that it does not help--it hurts. You can say that it has been talked to death, but that is your assessment, not your BW's. You don't get to say what is productive, you don't get to say what helps. She does. If you want to help her, listen to her. Don't try to change her mind about her healing process or tell her what she needs to do. You do not know, as you have not been through this.

Is is wrong for you not to need to discuss these things on a regular basis? No, of course not. It is just fatal to your wife's ability to R, if you in fact have the desire to R with her. You cannot change what you did in the past, but you can change what you are doing right now. It is up to you. Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?


Me--BW (56)
Him--FWH (53)--5yr. LTA--OW probably BPD
Married 20 years
DS-18, DD-15
Reconciling--but boy is it hard!

Posts: 1264 | Registered: Aug 2010
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

and realize that it is best to leave what happened in the past.

I am pulling out this wording because I am curious what you mean. The wording seems to indicate that you realize this is best, and that at some point you expect your BW to also.

But what if it isn''t best to leave it in the past, at least not yet? You could be the one who has it wrong.

You put your BW through hell. It is going to take a long time, and it is not linear. There is no statute of limitations.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I'm not saying that to discourage you from posting but just as a bit of advice. Nothing is taboo here, just know that a lot of folks here aren't going to pat your bottom and nod their heads in agreement. I'm glad you posted and are looking for help and I hope what I've been trying to delicately as possible say is understood.

I'm not new to SI, so believe me I understand that many/most responses won't be in agreement. What I'm asking is, are there alternate approaches? Is there something to be said for just moving on, full stop? I'd like to discuss that, and that was the motivation behind the post.

I'm travelling at the moment and just waiting in the airport, so I will read up on the threads, and respond once I've read them completely. Thank you for bumping them.

If she was abused as a child, and wanted to cry on your shoulder 30 years later, would you tell her she needs to let it go? Or would you be there?

Of course not. I would like to think I'd be there and be understanding. I'm not discounting, ignoring, or trying to deny her pain. What I'm trying to say is I'm realizing when we have talks about the As, we both are hurt, and we lose focus of what we ought to be focused on. That unless its imperative to focus on, lets not. Because there are more important things and if we are going to restart, like we both want to, we have to let things go.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
knightsbff
Member
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

You list multiple A's. the last one in August 2012. Since you carried right on with the behaviors from 2005 and your wife is just trying to process a very long time line I would expect her to need to talk about it for a very long time.

If you have truly processed what you did to her and to yourself then there shouldn't be so much pain or emotion attached anymore. If it is still so hard for you to discuss you still have some work to do there IMO. If you have processed it and she is still doing so it is an act of love for you to talk about it as much and as long as she need you to.

Do you ever bring it up? Try that. It must cross your mind at times. Why not try sharing that with her? It could help you both and bring you closer. It puts you on the same team.

Good luck


FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

Posts: 1386 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
TheClimb
Member
Member # 25895
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I get what you are saying about how it hurts both of you to discuss the affairs. Honestly, I think it is just a timing thing. As the BS, at first you just can't wrap your head around it. That's why we keep bringing it up and asking the same questions, over and over again. We are trying to get to "acceptance". Not that we accept the act, but we accept that it happened. I think it is similar to watching the 911 news clips over and over again. You see that airplane hit the building but you just can't believe it, so you watch it again and again. Finally, you just accept that it happened.

I will warn you that I was a complete ass in year two. I was very, very angry. It is a process, a stage you need to go through to get better.

Now, we are over four years past DD#2. I can't remember the last time I mentioned the affair or her name... maybe a year now. Like you, I found that when I brought up something like running into the OW, he was sympathetic but I ended up getting upset and feeling worse. Besides feeling bad about it and apologizing, there is nothing he or I can do about it at this point. So, I stopped telling him when I saw her. I started posted here instead. You guys understand what I am saying, as much as he would like to, he will never know how I feel when I see her. I no longer feel the need to bring up the affair. This is the key for you, Whatnow, I don't know when your wife will no longer feel the need to bring it up, but it will come. I understand how hard it is to be patient and how you must wonder why she keeps picking that scab off. All I can say is that it is a process. If you can think of it in those terms, maybe talking about it won't upset you so much.


"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be" P.C. Hodgell

Posts: 452 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Southern Maryland
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 2:27 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

You list multiple A's. the last one in August 2012. Since you carried right on with the behaviors from 2005 and your wife is just trying to process a very long time line I would expect her to need to talk about it for a very long time.
If you have truly processed what you did to her and to yourself then there shouldn't be so much pain or emotion attached anymore. If it is still so hard for you to discuss you still have some work to do there IMO. If you have processed it and she is still doing so it is an act of love for you to talk about it as much and as long as she need you to.

Do you ever bring it up? Try that. It must cross your mind at times. Why not try sharing that with her? It could help you both and bring you closer. It puts you on the same team.

Good luck

The affairs started from about when we were dating, according to my wife, so the timeline is actually 2003 on. I understand now, how much of a mind-fuck that has to be for her, and again, I'm sympathetic to that.

It may not be the perfect response, but for the most part, especially when we were dating it was never about Em. I wasn't thinking about her, or cheating to hurt her, or anything like that. I was just selfish, and didn't care enough. That probably doesn't help but it is the truth. And we have talked about it for a year+. The truth is she'll never believe me about the earlier stuff, and I can't honestly remember everything. I have no issues discussing it, beyond that it is uncomfortable and I'd rather not. It isn't that I can't though. I can, but I think our time and effort is better served focusing on other things. That isn't me dismissing the infidelity, but just prioritizing our family over things that happened in the past and are done.

There were affairs last year, and we have discussed it so much. Every single detail has been examined, and she has questioned me about everything. I understand why I did it, and I also understand why it was so wrong.

And to be honest, the affairs really don't cross my mind. There are so many different things going on in our lives, and I have so many other interests that I'd rather focus on. Last year, we both were on SI more frequently, so it was a common topic. Maybe sometimes during a movie or show, I'll think about it. But I don't have moments where I look back on the affairs. But if it does end up coming to me, while I'm with her, I'll definitely bring it up. It might be good for us.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I think our time and effort is better served focusing on other things.

It's not up to you to decide what is best for your BS. It's up to her to decide what she needs to move forward and when to move forward. Your selfish way of thinking is what got you in this mess to begin with. Stop trying to control everything and allow her what she needs to heal.

ETA...what you've posted today makes it even more evident to me that you aren't actually remorseful, but instead are pretending to be. It's still about what you want...what you feel and your BS's feelings/healing are not your priority.

[This message edited by lieshurt at 2:41 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


I'm sorry if you don't like my Honesty, but to be fair I don't like your lies.

Sometimes it's better to push someone away...not because you stopped loving them but because you can't take the pain anymore.


Posts: 13647 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
BaxtersBFF
Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

What I'm asking is, are there alternate approaches? Is there something to be said for just moving on, full stop? I'd like to discuss that, and that was the motivation behind the post.

In short, I would say no. You aren't a newbie, and you aren't really an old-timer yet. I'm still unsure if I can count myself as an old-timer...but what I've noticed is that the alternate approach generally doesn't work. There are basic things that seem to be truth for almost all situations even though each of our situations are slightly (sometimes drastically) unique. And quite honestly, being on SI for just over a year isn't long enough.

The other end of this is that your BW will keep bringing it up until she has processed it in a way that works for her. Where you come in is that you are the barometer for how well she is doing on any given day. Well, that's not entirely true, as she could trigger at any time, or she could be on some part of the roller coaster, or whatever, but your answers and your actions are going to play a significant part in your BW's healing process.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6097 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Suspicious  Posted: 3:07 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

wn999, your BW feels you are being too detached because you are detached, as demonstrated by your passive voice:

The affairs started...

...prioritizing our family over things that happened in the past and are done.

There were affairs last year...

And to be honest, the affairs...

Yes, shitloads of affairs "happened" last year, as evidenced by the hundreds (thousand-plus?) who signed up on SI. Accidents "happen," affairs are a choice.

When can the past be left in the past? Sometime after you take ownership and attach yourself to what you did, your actions, your choices. As long as you regard this as something that "happened," then what's to stop it from "happening" again? This?

I think I'm able to control that part of myself better.

Not very reassuring.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1044 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

That unless its imperative to focus on...
Gently, it is. It's imperative to focus on it because traumatized minds require repetition and consistency for a long, long time.

It isn't pleasant. It may seem unnecessary. It isn't.

And the cost of pushing too hard to get past it before its time is enormous.

It's not the past. It's woven into the tapestry of your marriage now. You can weave other things in around it, but it will always be there.

[This message edited by solus sto at 6:13 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8325 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

BS here...no stop sign so I wanted to mention one dynamic I notice between my wife and I.

I still have moments of wrestling with acceptance...that the affair actually happened..just like another member mentioned earlier. I know this sounds crazy to WS's...and it makes me feel crazy at times too! 10 months out from DD and I am just now getting close to accepting now...but I am here to tell you that my wifes A was such a foreign concept to me, something that just never could happen...that my very being is wrestling with the fact that it happened.

When I mention this feeling to her and ask if she feels the same way she says "NO, I am all to aware that it happened.".

This is a BIG difference between a BS and a WS view of the affair. And I believe it is one of the main culprits to this "out of rythm" feeling many couples experience as they learn to R.

The old saying you have to feel it to heal it holds true here. WS feel it quicker because they usually have already accepted the fact that the affair has happened BEFORE the BS discovers it...they lived every truth within and associated with the affair.. This does NOT mean a WS feels remorse...that is a different matter all together. I would venture to say if they felt remorse the affair would NOT have been discovered by the BS...the WS would have either stopped it or confessed to it.

I simply mean that a WS acknowledges and accepts the very real fact they choose to have an affair and that it did happen...they "grew into" this situation.

BS are slower to heal because they did not have the same opportunity to "grow into" the affair, had no knowledge of it, and are usually missing large pieces during the time of discovery and that horrible time that follows.

Add to this some WS choice to TT and it compounds the issue...adding considerable time for a BS to "feel" and accept the affair...and adds even more lag time between the WS and BS getting in rythm together.

Specifically...my wife told me it was just a friendship and quite proudly at the begining that she never said she loved him. I found this hard to believe, questioned her relentlessly on it, and then when the answer remained the same I took this as fact and began to process the situation. Then sometime later she admitted that they both told each other they loved each other. This changed my reality and I had to start processing over...

Then she told me they were never physical...on one occasion I asked about if he touched her mothers ring. She specifically told me she just pointed to her mothers ring when she talked about it...that he never touched it or her at all. I began processing that...believing the situation was an EA. Later she admitted that they had full on sex...wedding rings still on...resting peacefully on his chest afterwards. I started processing all over again....

I am trying to politely point out how a BS mind is traumatized by a WS actions...both by the initial discovery of the affair and continues to grow as the WS tries in vane to control a situation they simply can not control. WS are delusional in the fact that they THINK they can control their affiar, that they are controlling their emotions, telling themselves things like "I can end this whenever I want" and "We are just friends" and "We have not had sex yet so it is not cheating" and "What my husband doesnt know wont hurt him" and.....

WS fail to realize during the affair that they are actually out of control. Once the affair is uncovered they once again return to this false sense of control of their spouse and start doing harmful things again....

BS's are traumatized in ways the WS can't comprehend and ways a BS never has hurt them in...so a WS "acceptance" time is much quicker. Thus you are at a spot where you are no doubt ready to move on to bigger and better things. As a BS I assure you it is not by choice that we are not side by side with our WS on the recovery and rebuilding time schedule. There is not a day that goes by that I don't wish my wife would have looked to solve our marital problems (of which none where out of the ordinary) within our marriage rather then step outside of it. THAT action would have resembled the type of healing and repair you think you deserve now. Think about all of the needs that were not getting met inside your marriage pre-A...roll them up into as big a ball as you can...and compare them to the single act of your affair....does not that entire ball pale in size and shape to the reality your affair has made for you both now?

Now the million dollar question....are you prepared to fix that which is broken inside of you? Including this false sense of control over your wife and the beleif that you know what is best for her? Know what they can handle and can't handle?

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:38 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

it seems like it is so easy for me to just separate these things and realize that it is best to leave what happened in the past.

That's because you were not the one who received the trauma.


Honestly WN the things that you are saying in your post are exactly the things that my husband was saying to me last summer when he had one foot in and one foot out of our marriage. It wasn't until he stopped lying to me and started answering my questions and showing remorse that we started healing. And honestly? Now I don't feel like talking about the infidelities the vast majority of the time. Because I've processed it. She obviously hasn't processed it yet. And from what I recall, she had a lot to process. It takes TIME.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6537 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 3:59 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

+1 for 20Wrongs. +1 for Aubrie. +1 for bits and pieces of every reply here. I'm surprised more, um, wood isn't being dished out.

I am trying to get a handle on your thread, whatnow, and I have to say the one "bottom line" word comes to my mind, in blinking neon, is: DENIAL.

You are of obvious intelligence, but like someone I know quite well, that can be both a blessing and a curse. And what I'm reading is it's curse mode right now. Throw in a selfish, "me first" personality, and a stunted ability to be able or willing to walk in another person's shoes (especially those closest to us!), and, well, I feel concern. And that's all I will choose to say at this time.

This thread is helpful to read. JD



2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

Thing is, reverse positions. You flipped out that she had an EA and went on a revenge tirade with multiple PA's.

So...if SHE had multiple PA's would YOU feel comfortable just being done talking about it and moving past it, less than a year out? I hardly think so. Not the way you were going on and on about her EA last year.

Plainly put, no, you can't just stop, you can't go around it, you have to go THROUGH it. You hurt her in the worst way imaginable and now just want to be done with it. It doesn't work that way. It's like someone killing your family member and telling you when to stop grieving over them.

Prioritizing her mental and emotional health IS important. If you neglect it, she will implode at some point, and it's not going to be pretty.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

The affairs started from about when we were dating, according to my wife, so the timeline is actually 2003 on.
See, crap like this gets you in trouble and shows just how self centered you are. Do you realize how condescending you are when you make comments like this? It's like you only believe it started in 2005 but *sigh* "my wife thinks it's 2003 so whatever. I'll follow along." Your tone is just...off. Way off.

I think our time and effort is better served focusing on other things.
Like what? The stock market? I would think that healing a relationship that has been blown up by infidelity would be first and foremost in a person's mind. Do we still have to deal with every day life? Absolutely. Life will not be put on hold. This is where you're supposed to pull up the big boy pants and learn how to multitask. Countless WS here have proven that it can be done. Of course the WS has to *want* to. Otherwise it's going to blow up in their face because their heart isn't in it for the right reasons.

I understand why I did it, and I also understand why it was so wrong.
Ok. So what are you doing to FIX it? Anything? Or are you white knuckling this thing?

And to be honest, the affairs really don't cross my mind. There are so many different things going on in our lives, and I have so many other interests that I'd rather focus on.
Who doesn't have a million things going on in their lives? Who doesn't have "other interests"? I don't think any of the WS here like to sit down and do Affair Trivia 101 every night with their BS. But if the BS wants to sit down, pull out the calendar and spreadsheets, and go over call and chat logs, I'd think the WS would most likely sit their butts down and hold their BS's hand. Or at least the ones that are invested in the relationship and want to heal.

what you've posted today makes it even more evident to me that you aren't actually remorseful, but instead are pretending to be. It's still about what you want...what you feel and your BS's feelings/healing are not your priority.
X2


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6048 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
justdoit
Member
Member # 25898
Default  Posted: 5:53 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

No stop sign so here goes.
Are you kidding me?
You've had a string of affairs over the last decade - as recently as less than a year ago and your BW is supposed to believe that you've been touched by the good fairy of perfect marriage and fidelity and you are now the perfect husband? Sorry, but she is not likely to get past it for a while (maybe never).
If you are truly remorseful my advise is that you count your blessings, give thanks she is giving you another chance, and give her at least as many years to process your infidelities as it took you to realize you valued your marriage and stopped have affairs.


Me - 60
WH - 67
Married 35 years
DDay - 5/14/09
He's reconciled, I'm in limbo.
"Stuck in the middle with you"

Posts: 155 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Rocky Mountains
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

No stop sign. You had a decade long affair, just interchangeable AP's. Wouldn't it seem likely that might have caused PTSD in your spouse? Have you ever researched it? How can/will you help her heal from that?


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2549 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
alphakitte
Member
Member # 33438
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

I was just selfish and didn't care enough.

In all seriousness, I'd say that was true then, and is true now. Your attitude, in these posts lack empathy, IMO.

Why can I do it and she can't?

Because she is the betrayed and you the betrayer. And, probably, because you haven't developed the skill set of empathy.

Is there something to be said for just moving on full stop? I'd like to discuss that . . .

Here's what can be said for it from my perspective; your attitudes, and explanations are word for word those of my husband's. We are 5 years out from Dday. When I understood his/your attitude regarding long term betrayals I decided to "let it go". For me moving on full stop meant that I understand that the one that cares the least hurts the least. I learned to get control of my emotions and not care about his feelings, goals, desires, expectations, friends, and family as much as my own. My heart doesn't "throb" for him, I'm affectionate towards him, but sex is just sex. For me, he's a roomate.

For a time, I was so detached that while eating at a restaurant where my husband choked and blocked his windpipe, with a forkful of steak, I actually counted to 3 before I calmly got up and performed the heimlich maneuver to clear his windpipe.

We are roomates and if he came home and asked me for a divorce I'd agree and I'd leave. We could decide how to divide things tomorrow. That's what moving on fullstop looks like for us.

That might be okay with you, but I doubt it will be good enough for your wife.


------ Some people are emotional tadpoles. Even if they mature they are just a warty toad. Catt

Posts: 347 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: 3 klicks north of Ambiguous
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)


I think every situation is different. I remember when you first started posting here. Your outrage and pain at her choices. You were dumbfounded and gobsmacked she did that. After your story seeped out I was puzzled. You had engaged in the same types of thinking so why so shocked?

After reading some of your posts it occurred to me your thought process and hers are worlds apart. Yeah, we get lumped. There are differences, of course, as we're all different people. You didn't seem to have any issues with your choices with the married woman so I concluded none of your moral imperatives were fractured by you. Her posts showed pain at the hurt she cause you as well as shock and dismay over the choices she made and what those choices clearly meant to her belief system.

You didn't have that same reaction. Yours was more shock that she could do that to YOU. Ffs, you! So, the following punishment, I mean string of your little flash bangs was punitive. You wanted her to feel the depth of your outrage. Mission accomplished. She was pretty much leveled by them so now we can go back to our regularly scheduled program. She, properly chastised and aversion therapy applied so THAT nonsense won't happen again and you felt "deserved" retribution. So what's the big deal? Enough already. We're good now. Why not relief and gratitude as we move forward not needing to speak of this again?

You asked if you could get past this. I think Jana Green hit it dead on by her post that she was able to once she saw her husband register the damage and not just as a cold forensic analysis. I very much believe your wife would do the same thing. Just don't know if you are capable of the patience to help her sort, process, respond to her pain. I think you are already building a case for the next series of "corrections". I'm betting high she's pretty close to hitting the last nerve on you that will trigger the "enough of this shit already". 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
jo2love
Moderator
Member # 31528
Red  Posted: 8:07 PM, July 16th (Tuesday)

Everyone,

Whatnow999 came to us for guidance. Let's give him the advice and support he needs without attacking and being abrasive. If you are unable to do this, please stay off the thread.

Thank you.


Posts: 33855 | Registered: Mar 2011
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

When can the past be left in the past? Sometime after you take ownership and attach yourself to what you did, your actions, your choices. As long as you regard this as something that "happened," then what's to stop it from "happening" again? This?

I think I'm able to control that part of myself better.
Not very reassuring.

I suppose it isn't reassuring, but I know that an affair isn't going to happen again. The affairs last year were not accidents, if that makes sense. It doesn't make them any better, and probably makes them worse but it wasn't a slippery slope situation. I have no doubts about my ability to be faithful going forward. I wouldn't be here if I thought I was going to cheat again. That is in the past. There is no part of me that wants to be unfaithful.

No stop sign. You had a decade long affair, just interchangeable AP's. Wouldn't it seem likely that might have caused PTSD in your spouse? Have you ever researched it? How can/will you help her heal from that?

Have not done much research into PTSD. I'll look into it.

Would just like to say that the "decade long affair" is probably an inaccurate label. I understand that my profile isn't as detailed as maybe ideal, so maybe that leads to some confusion, but there were really never affairs. Incidents mostly. There was one AP in a continued sense, before we were married. Almost every other AP wasn't in any way romantic or emotional, and there was a long, long period where there were no PAs.

Here's what can be said for it from my perspective; your attitudes, and explanations are word for word those of my husband's. We are 5 years out from Dday. When I understood his/your attitude regarding long term betrayals I decided to "let it go". For me moving on full stop meant that I understand that the one that cares the least hurts the least. I learned to get control of my emotions and not care about his feelings, goals, desires, expectations, friends, and family as much as my own. My heart doesn't "throb" for him, I'm affectionate towards him, but sex is just sex. For me, he's a roomate.

For a time, I was so detached that while eating at a restaurant where my husband choked and blocked his windpipe, with a forkful of steak, I actually counted to 3 before I calmly got up and performed the heimlich maneuver to clear his windpipe.

We are roomates and if he came home and asked me for a divorce I'd agree and I'd leave. We could decide how to divide things tomorrow. That's what moving on fullstop looks like for us.

That might be okay with you, but I doubt it will be good enough for your wife.

Thanks for posting this. It was kind of a chilling read, but something that was valuable to read. I don't want a marriage that isn't emotionless, and I certainly wouldn't want for that level of detachment. Maybe not talking about it is a half-measure that leads to our marriage not being genuine. That wipes away the emotional bond between us. It is something to consider for sure.

You asked if you could get past this. I think Jana Green hit it dead on by her post that she was able to once she saw her husband register the damage and not just as a cold forensic analysis. I very much believe your wife would do the same thing. Just don't know if you are capable of the patience to help her sort, process, respond to her pain. I think you are already building a case for the next series of "corrections". I'm betting high she's pretty close to hitting the last nerve on you that will trigger the "enough of this shit already".

Here is the thing though, UO. I'm really, really happy with our marriage and our life. The only issue I have is sometimes we ruin good times by bringing up the ghost of bad times. But in terms of our life today, I'm very happy, and the last thing I want is to go back to a summer 12' situation. I'm also not nearly as dispassionate as you may think... I'm not some sadistic asshole that levies punishment via a master plan. What I did last year wasn't great, but it came out of me not knowing how to react, and feeling hurt and embarrassed and it brought out maybe the worst in me. I really do wish I handled it better.

Honestly WN the things that you are saying in your post are exactly the things that my husband was saying to me last summer when he had one foot in and one foot out of our marriage. It wasn't until he stopped lying to me and started answering my questions and showing remorse that we started healing. And honestly? Now I don't feel like talking about the infidelities the vast majority of the time. Because I've processed it. She obviously hasn't processed it yet. And from what I recall, she had a lot to process. It takes TIME.

Look, I'm not suggesting we never speak of the As again. They happened and were for some time at least, a big part of our lives. I just think we can exercise discretion, and not make it the singular focus. I'm not sure if people here know, but we had our son earlier this year, and he has been my number one priority. We'll be talking about the baby, and she'll start bringing up stuff that happened when our daughter was his age. Like suggesting there were affairs then... never out and out saying it, but hinting. Which drives me kind of crazy, because it ruins a nice moment.

I've answered here questions as best I can. The answers aren't changing, and the questions aren't either. How many times do we need to talk about the same things? That is my point. Its been discussed to death.

ETA...what you've posted today makes it even more evident to me that you aren't actually remorseful, but instead are pretending to be. It's still about what you want...what you feel and your BS's feelings/healing are not your priority.

Not trying to be petty, but LiesHurt I'm pretty sure you've never believed that I'm remorseful. I'm not pretending to be remorseful... I am actually remorseful about many, many things. But to some people, its easier to write off the WS as a stock villain.

If you are truly remorseful my advise is that you count your blessings, give thanks she is giving you another chance, and give her at least as many years to process your infidelities as it took you to realize you valued your marriage and stopped have affairs.

Again, I am committed and am not looking to start anything or for an out. I'm really happy in our marriage and with our relationship, 95% of the time. I will try to be more patient since that is the message that most of the posters have expressed. Thanks for all the comments, and I'm sorry about the late AM reply.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:07 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

(whatnow999)

I just wanted to show support for you. You did NOT run away from the posts that followed your original start of this thread. It shows a level of character that desires to change....it is noteworthy.

It is nice for me to witness this. I have wondered if my wife has the fortitude to stick to this process. Witnessing you facing this...even though I don't agree with all of your perspectives, you are still willing to recognize change is needed and that you are open to more self examination to see if the change you are about to institute will result in the growth you both are seeking.

God be with you.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:15 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 3:25 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Which drives me kind of crazy, because it ruins a nice moment.

Why do you think she brings up the topic when u r supposed to have nice moments?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 3:37 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

(whatnow999)
I just wanted to show support for you. You did NOT run away from the posts that followed your original start of this thread. It shows a level of character that desires to change....it is noteworthy.

It is nice for me to witness this. I have wondered if my wife has the fortitude to stick to this process. Witnessing you facing this...even though I don't agree with all of your perspectives, you are still willing to recognize change is needed and that you are open to more self examination to see if the change you are about to institute will result in the growth you both are seeking.

God be with you.

Thanks for the kind words Blake. Not sure that I deserve them, but I appreciate it none the less.

Why do you think she brings up the topic when u r supposed to have nice moments?

I don't know...

Maybe its on her mind at that moment. I'm not exactly sure. Maybe she wants me to feel guilty?


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 3:41 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Maybe she wants me to feel guilty?

Instead of guessing, why not ask her?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 5:54 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

When can the past be left in the past? Sometime after you take ownership and attach yourself to what you did, your actions, your choices. As long as you regard this as something that "happened," then what's to stop it from "happening" again? This?

Whatnow: I think I'm able to control that part of myself better.

Not very reassuring.

Whatnow: I suppose it isn't reassuring, but I know that an affair isn't going to happen again. The affairs last year were not accidents, if that makes sense. It doesn't make them any better, and probably makes them worse but it wasn't a slippery slope situation. I have no doubts about my ability to be faithful going forward. I wouldn't be here if I thought I was going to cheat again. That is in the past. There is no part of me that wants to be unfaithful.

I'm asking this (and not to be clever or flippant) but how did you just get rid of the part of you that WAS unfaithful? What work did you do on that part of you that DID cheat, and how are you so confident a "healthy, affair-proof" part is now firmly in its place?

I obviously don't know you except from this one thread, and I am sincerely curious as to your reply.

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 5:55 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
SurprisinglyOkay
Member
Member # 36684
Default  Posted: 6:42 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

This is rankling me:

I suppose it isn't reassuring, but I know that an affair isn't going to happen again. The affairs last year were not accidents, if that makes sense. It doesn't make them any better, and probably makes them worse but it wasn't a slippery slope situation. I have no doubts about my ability to be faithful going forward. I wouldn't be here if I thought I was going to cheat again. That is in the past. There is no part of me that wants to be unfaithful.

Keeping this on me... this screams of over confidence.

Which is something that I keep a close watch on myself for.

As soon as I start thinking "I've got this", I've lost it.

I know are dangerous words for me.

I don't know if that makes sense, (I'm running on lots of coffee and nicotine, no food yet)

Maybe its on her mind at that moment. I'm not exactly sure. Maybe she wants me to feel guilty?

She may. But like EF said ask her.

I would hazard a guess that She's not trying to ruin good moments, but She's in pain and expressing that to you.

We've made these choices that have blown our bss' world to bits.

Now being in R we have to face our past and current decisions. If being in R means going over every gory detail again and again, because it helps our BS heal, than so be it.

If it means "ruining" good moments with things from the past, than so be it.

I think in a lot of cases the ws heals faster than the bs. And it's so easy to get impatient, and justify that impatience. But it does nothing to help the bs heal.

Okay enough rambling for now!!


FWS me 36 (recovering addict)
BS him 39 AFrayedKnot
Together 7 years
2 children


"Your secrets keep you sick"


Posts: 1130 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: 221B
Lucky2HaveMe
Member
Member # 13333
Default  Posted: 6:44 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I've answered here questions as best I can. The answers aren't changing, and the questions aren't either. How many times do we need to talk about the same things? That is my point. Its been discussed to death.

Very simply, it's just part of the process. Your patience will be key to her healing. Getting exasperated over her feelings and continued need for conversation relating to the A's will only push you further away. Watch your tone, watch your body language. She needs to know that you HEAR her. That you are present with her pain. Trust me when I say it's like the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon - EVERYTHING in the BS mind can be connected in some way to the A's. EVERYTHING. Does it always make sense - Nope. I can tell you that it doesn't even make sense to JM. But bottom line, she for some reason is taken back to those feelings and you both must acknowledge them and work through them. It would be very unhealthy for her to stuff them because you don't want to engage with her. These in depth conversations are integral to regaining intimacy.

What I did last year wasn't great

Stop trying to minimize by using words like "wasn't great" instead of "it was shitty". If these are the kinds of words you are using with JM, I can tell you it is not helping. To her (as a BS) it reeks of lack of compassion.


That is in the past. There is no part of me that wants to be unfaithful.

Did you ever tell yourself, after any of the ONS, that you would never do it again? What steps have you taken to ensure those thought processes, or lack thereof, won't come creeping back?

Maybe she wants me to feel guilty?

I think she wants to feel your remorse more than she wants you to feel guilty. Digest that thought, because if you don't, you won't ever move forward.


Indian wisdom says our lives are rivers. We are born somewhere small and quiet and we move toward a place we cannot see, but only imagine. From Tending Roses

Posts: 5999 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: WNY
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Not trying to be petty, but LiesHurt I'm pretty sure you've never believed that I'm remorseful. I'm not pretending to be remorseful... I am actually remorseful about many, many things.

You are correct. Your actions have never shown me any remorse. As I said, this post proves it to me even more. UO is dead on in her assessment of you.

My advice? Stop trying to control the situation. Stop trying to dictate to your BS how quickly she should be "over" this. You are only making things worse and prolonging her healing by doing so.

But to some people, its easier to write off the WS as a stock villain.

This is where you are wrong about me. A truly remorseful WS will get my full support....even if it were you. I count myself lucky to have met some of the best people who are also FWS's from this site, so no, I don't have a grudge against all WS's.


I'm sorry if you don't like my Honesty, but to be fair I don't like your lies.

Sometimes it's better to push someone away...not because you stopped loving them but because you can't take the pain anymore.


Posts: 13647 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Please heed broevils words of warning.

That whole line of absolutes and NEVER statements ARE dangerous.

My marriage pre-A was full of these statements...we were so blind to the real dangers all around us.

We are all vulnerable. Add to this that there are actual people out there who intentionally seek affairs out and it is a hostile world towards all marriages. Figure in the facts that somewhere between 30-80% of all marraiges have infidelity affect them and a case can simply not be made that any of us can be so absolutely confident...we must all have firm boundaries and reinforce them often.

Reinforcement comes in many forms...and this is part of our challenge as we move forward. To find ways to connect deeper and deeper with our spouses and refrain from connecting too deep with others of the opposite sex.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

We are all vulnerable....a case can simply not be made that any of us can be so absolutely confident...we must all have firm boundaries and reinforce them often.

Very good words to hear, take to heart, and put into action.


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
unfound
Member
Member # 12802
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

unfoundling15 plays baseball (bear with me here). when he doesn't do well, or loses a game he gets down, mad, disappointed.

I don't get it. oh, I understand the emotion and why he gets upset, but *I* don't feel that. I've lost competitions.. I feel bad, then move on. with him, he lingers on it.

but even though *I* don't understand it, or think it's necessary to linger on it past a certain point, to talk about the specific plays, errors, replay a missed catch, an over throw etc.. he does. and since I can empathize with him, and know that he has to work through it in his own time, I can help him through it by allowing him to process it in his own way, and not laying my way/time frame on it.

now if a month later he's still mulling over it, I know that's not healthy.

same thing here. if you can't empathize with your wife, then her need to keep rehashing events seems like she's not leaving the past in the past.

2-5 years. yup. and that's just the average. it's not unhealthy, and it's not a stretch.

her being willing to bring it up to you is her showing her vulnerable side to you, which is a gift. maybe she wants you to feel bad, maybe she just wants some emotion, any emotion from you. maybe she's looking for reassurance, an apology, comfort....only she knows (and sometimes a bs doesn't even really know at the time). the more she talks about it, processes it, analyzes it with you, the less, over time, she will need to. the ACT happened in the past, but it is and will be a part of her present and future..in what capacity, will be determined on how she's able to process it, come to terms with it and how (if you're attempting R) you help her though it.

I can't say if you're remorseful or have done the deep down hard work to resolve whatever made you make the decisions you did.. but I can say that until you empathetic-ally accept that this is part of HER processing, she will probably either continue to need to talk about this, or internalize it. the later is not healthy for her or ultimately the M. it may make YOU feel better not hearing it, but how can knowing that those thoughts are still running around her head make you feel better?

it takes as long as it takes. humbly understanding and accepting this is only one part of it. your own processing and understanding of yourself is another.


ka-mai
*******************
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity. DK

Posts: 14810 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: mercury's underboob
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I'm asking this (and not to be clever or flippant) but how did you just get rid of the part of you that WAS unfaithful? What work did you do on that part of you that DID cheat, and how are you so confident a "healthy, affair-proof" part is now firmly in its place?

I obviously don't know you except from this one thread, and I am sincerely curious as to your reply.

I completely understand the skepticism. Of course it must sound hard to believe for me to essentially say what seems like, "don't worry, it won't happen again".

As to answering your question, I just feel like I had control over my infidelity. If that makes sense? The actual PAs were not accidents... before (long, long ago) I didn't see our relationship as serious, and I justified it to myself. Last year, there was some sort of revenge element and the decision to cheat was a completely sober one. There is no motivation now for me to be anywhere near unfaithful. I already feel like I don't deserve my BW... I'm not going to do anything to make myself less worthy.

I've actually been very good about not cheating, and not blurring lines in the past. I'll try to say this in the most modest way possible, but there were plenty of opportunities to cheat prior to last year. And I never really faltered. So in my mind, it isn't hard to get back to that place. I know I'm capable of it, and I know I don't want to cheat, so I do not see why there would be any affairs.

She may. But like EF said ask her.

I would hazard a guess that She's not trying to ruin good moments, but She's in pain and expressing that to you.

We've made these choices that have blown our bss' world to bits.

Now being in R we have to face our past and current decisions. If being in R means going over every gory detail again and again, because it helps our BS heal, than so be it.

If it means "ruining" good moments with things from the past, than so be it.

Thanks for the comments. I am not saying that my BW is bringing up the affairs to intentionally hurt us, or bring me down. I'm sure it comes from a place of pain, and I'll work on being more understanding to that pain. And yes, her healing should be the first priority.

It is just the As are the one part of my life that I am not happy with. And I (understandably) hate having it brought up, but her healing is important and I will be more conscious of that.

Did you ever tell yourself, after any of the ONS, that you would never do it again? What steps have you taken to ensure those thought processes, or lack thereof, won't come creeping back?

No, I didn't tell myself that it would never happen again. And some of the ONS were when we were separated and a divorce was in the works, so I didn't even feel guilty. Maybe I should have, but I didn't. Again, maybe I'm an atypical WS?

her being willing to bring it up to you is her showing her vulnerable side to you, which is a gift. maybe she wants you to feel bad, maybe she just wants some emotion, any emotion from you. maybe she's looking for reassurance, an apology, comfort....only she knows (and sometimes a bs doesn't even really know at the time). the more she talks about it, processes it, analyzes it with you, the less, over time, she will need to. the ACT happened in the past, but it is and will be a part of her present and future..in what capacity, will be determined on how she's able to process it, come to terms with it and how (if you're attempting R) you help her though it.

We are in R, and I do want to help her through it. I think the perspective you suggest, taking it as a positive is a good one. I should probably know better and realize that it isn't easy or fun for her to bring it up either, but she is in pain. I'll fully admit that sometimes I'm not as sensitive as I should be. I'll work on it, and like some of you said, I'll talk to her and ask her in the future when it comes up.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
alphakitte
Member
Member # 33438
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I just feel like I had control over my infidelity.

Of course you do. Everyone does. We might claim to be swept away with emotion and "it just happens" but like everything in life, infidelity is composed of choices and decisions.

I believe you when you say it won't happen again. I believe that it won't happen with my husband, again. Unless either of you decide differently. And, that doesn't scare me, nor it is the reason for my detachment.

You stated earlier that you did what you did because you were selfish and didn't care enough. I accept that it was that simple. The problem with all of that is because you didn't care enough you betrayed your wife on many levels and repeatedly and that damage is in the present, and future, of your relationship. Think of it like this; the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki are in the past and most likely will not be dropped, ever again. However, the damage from those bombs is still in the DNA of those that experienced them. There is still scorched earth and evidence of significant damage there. Ignoring the physical and emotional damage doesn't make it go away and certainly makes the Japanese feel disenfranchised.

I certainly wouldn't want that level of detachment.

Then you and your wife must arrive at a mutually agreed on compromise that permits her to heal.

Maybe not talking leads to a M not being genuine.

It certainly sounds like that is true for your wife. If she needs to share her wounds and anguish, with you, in order to heal then you might need to assist her with that in order for the two of you to truly engage.

As to why she brings these things up while you are enjoying good times, I can't say. However, for me, while we were enjoying good times I was beginning to feel safe enough to share my pain, only to receive the attitude from my husband that he wanted to move on.

Who would truly want to spoil a good time? (I accept there are some that are just that passive-aggressive that they might do it on purpose, but in general, most wouldn't.) It just might be that she begins to feel safe with you, during those times and is looking for the comfort and reassurance from you that SHE needs to move on. Ask her. It might just be a compliment to the two of you that she's feeling safe again.


------ Some people are emotional tadpoles. Even if they mature they are just a warty toad. Catt

Posts: 347 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: 3 klicks north of Ambiguous
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)

You say that you are certain that cheating is no longer something you want. But what are you doing to gather the tools necessary to ensure that you are a safe partner, should your resolve be tested? Cheating has been your method of self-soothing for a very long time. What coping mechanisms have you learned, to swap out for it?


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8325 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

 No, I didn't tell myself that it would never happen again. And some of the ONS were when we were separated and a divorce was in the works, so I didn't even feel guilty. Maybe I should have, but I didn't. Again, maybe I'm an atypical WS?

Again, it depends on your value system. Yours. Do you feel cheating is wrong? If you have situational provisions than guilt would be avoidable. That's what I meant when I responded to you. I've always gotten the feeling you felt justification for your actions. They were deliberate and premeditated, as were mine. 

I felt my honesty protected my integrity. I found it did not. I was not in an open marriage and had not filed. My choices violated my belief system. My SOP's, so to speak. 

When you joined, just over a year ago, you were outraged. Now you aren't. So, what happened that evaporated that anger at her choice? Was it the actions you took that provided an equalizing affect in your mind? That's how it appears to me. If so, then how would any introspection have occurred? Your actions worked for your healing. I'd think those tools would still be in your inventory. 

If you feel "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" you don't have to be Newton. Quite a few people believe that. There's no judgement in my point at all. 

You seem to register her pain. Do you feel it's appropriate or do you feel it's unfortunate? Without it would you find your choices an issue for you or more of a "no need for them at present" thing?

Like I said, I think Jana Green hit it. She needed to see and feel her husband got the enormity of his actions and how they caused her pain. Do you register her pain like that or as something that while you logically can see it as a result so reasonable is also frustrating as you feel the conclusion has been satisfactory, to you?

Do you wonder if your wife will make the same choices she made? If not, why? I would think that would be a very common concern unless you feel you have control of her choices. If so, that dynamic is not just confidences in your ability to cope but comes across to me as a comforting belief in weapon superiority. A third possibility is detachment which I also understand quite well. That would impact any reconciliation attempt both from a personal responsibility aspect as well as a compassionate one. 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

If so, that dynamic is not just confidences in your ability to cope but comes across to me as a comforting belief in weapon superiority.

^^^^ Yep. It looks like his comfort comes from "I trust you bcz I know you know what the consequences would be. I have shown it to you which you very much deserved. Dont make me punish you again." I wonder what if she reacts to her current pain just the same way?

[This message edited by EmotionalFool at 1:49 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Last year, there was some sort of revenge element and the decision to cheat was a completely sober one.

PTSD is a serious illness to have. Please put your wife into counseling.

If you are upset about her going back into time. Asking the same questions??
Have her write out all her questions. You answer them. Then you make an appointment with a polygraph person and answer again any questions she may have.

Good luck!!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3185 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

We'll be talking about the baby, and she'll start bringing up stuff that happened when our daughter was his age. Like suggesting there were affairs then... never out and out saying it, but hinting. Which drives me kind of crazy, because it ruins a nice moment.

I see what you mean. And it must be frustrating when you're having what's a nice moment to you, and she brings up the affairs and ruins it. That's completely understandable. But the thing is, to her it's not necessarily a nice moment. She probably WANTS it to be, but there's that voice inside of her, the one that's trying to keep her from letting herself get hurt again, that's saying, "Oh, the baby is starting to sit up. Remember how happy you were when Jenna was doing that? And what WN was doing behind your back? Don't be a fool." That voice tells us that history is going to repeat itself. She's struggling between her desire to be part of a happy family and her fear of getting hurt again. So she starts hinting around, because she wants reassurance, but she's probably afraid to come out and say it. She is probably trying to get reassurance without ruining the moment. But of course it doesn't work that way and the moment is ruined.

When you say it's a nice moment, remember that your wife is not you, and she is not experiencing things the same way you are, because she has been traumatized. I do think you are trying to put yourself in her shoes more so than you have in the past. Just remember that she might be having different feelings about things that are happening than you are, and realize that she's not trying to ruin happy moments or punish you - she's trying to process and move on. The more you answer her gently and honestly, and don't try to shame or guilt her for her very normal feelings, the better she'll heal. Good luck WN.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6537 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
whatnow999
Member
Member # 35494
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

You say that you are certain that cheating is no longer something you want. But what are you doing to gather the tools necessary to ensure that you are a safe partner, should your resolve be tested? Cheating has been your method of self-soothing for a very long time. What coping mechanisms have you learned, to swap out for it?

Cheating hasn't been my go-to method of self-soothing. For a few periods of time it was. When we were first dating, during the one affair... which I can't and won't make excuses for. It was wrong, and fucked up, and indefensible. And then last summer, after her EA. There were many years where I didn't cheat, even though I could have. That isn't my solution to issues.

What I've done is I think had an attitude change. I love my wife and our family, and they are my priority. I don't worry or focus about anything else, and that helps a lot. Being a good father is not possible while being a cheater. And I don't want to hurt my wife, and I've seen how much the As hurt her.

I don't know how to answer the coping mechanism question exactly, but I hope that is somewhat of an answer.

As to why she brings these things up while you are enjoying good times, I can't say. However, for me, while we were enjoying good times I was beginning to feel safe enough to share my pain, only to receive the attitude from my husband that he wanted to move on.

Who would truly want to spoil a good time? (I accept there are some that are just that passive-aggressive that they might do it on purpose, but in general, most wouldn't.) It just might be that she begins to feel safe with you, during those times and is looking for the comfort and reassurance from you that SHE needs to move on. Ask her. It might just be a compliment to the two of you that she's feeling safe again.

I think the concept of feeling safe probably has merit. I will try my best to be more open to listening to her pain, and being there for her. My default position is lets not talk about it, but that has its flaws too. I'm open to reconsidering and will definitely think about it.

Again, it depends on your value system. Yours. Do you feel cheating is wrong? If you have situational provisions than guilt would be avoidable. That's what I meant when I responded to you. I've always gotten the feeling you felt justification for your actions. They were deliberate and premeditated, as were mine.

I'm not sure how to respond to either of your comments UO. There is a lot of truth there, and I'm sure you know that. At the same time, I have to be careful in what I say. No one goes to a cancer clinic and advertises cigarettes... so asking if I think "cheating is always wrong" is kind of a loaded question. I've made comments in the past that I stand by though.

I'm not saying I haven't done anything wrong... I look back and there are things I've done that are completely, totally fucked up. Indefensible. Cheating on Em while we were engaged. I genuinely felt sick about that, and hated myself for that infidelity because there was no reason whatsoever. Sometimes you can point to something... we were fighting, we weren't communicating. So yeah. I'd say that cheating was absolutely wrong.

The stuff when we were getting together is kind of a grey area. Same with the events last year. Could I come up with reasons... sure. Would some people think they are valid, probably.

Would this community think they are valid?

Not at all, and I'm not here to piss anyone off. There are some things you just don't say on a forum like SI, and one of those is saying cheating is sometimes acceptable. So I'll decline to make that argument or go into detail.

Yep. It looks like his comfort comes from "I trust you bcz I know you know what the consequences would be. I have shown it to you which you very much deserved. Dont make me punish you again." I wonder what if she reacts to her current pain just the same way?

No.

I'm confident that my wife won't make a mistake again, and I trust her. She has always had strong, strong boundaries and been a good SO. She screwed up once... but her screw-up is awfully minor by SI standards. And I've seen how much that hurt her, and I'm very certain she won't respond to her pain in the same way again. I'm also trying to be a more attentive husband and not leave her so lonely or forgotten, which I was probably guilty of before. My BW is an inspiration for me in that she is who I'd like to be. She is a kind-hearted, forgiving, decent, faithful, woman. And honestly probably better than what I deserve. I don't want to lose her, and I don't want to push her to a place of pain.

PTSD is a serious illness to have. Please put your wife into counseling.

If you are upset about her going back into time. Asking the same questions??
Have her write out all her questions. You answer them. Then you make an appointment with a polygraph person and answer again any questions she may have.

Good luck!!

She is in IC.

Like I said, I've answered her questions to the best of my abilities. The reality is she will always have doubts, and I can't give her some of the answers she wants. As to a polygraph, please do your research.

Thanks for the comment and advice though.

I see what you mean. And it must be frustrating when you're having what's a nice moment to you, and she brings up the affairs and ruins it. That's completely understandable. But the thing is, to her it's not necessarily a nice moment. She probably WANTS it to be, but there's that voice inside of her, the one that's trying to keep her from letting herself get hurt again, that's saying, "Oh, the baby is starting to sit up. Remember how happy you were when Jenna was doing that? And what WN was doing behind your back? Don't be a fool." That voice tells us that history is going to repeat itself. She's struggling between her desire to be part of a happy family and her fear of getting hurt again. So she starts hinting around, because she wants reassurance, but she's probably afraid to come out and say it. She is probably trying to get reassurance without ruining the moment. But of course it doesn't work that way and the moment is ruined.

When you say it's a nice moment, remember that your wife is not you, and she is not experiencing things the same way you are, because she has been traumatized. I do think you are trying to put yourself in her shoes more so than you have in the past. Just remember that she might be having different feelings about things that are happening than you are, and realize that she's not trying to ruin happy moments or punish you - she's trying to process and move on. The more you answer her gently and honestly, and don't try to shame or guilt her for her very normal feelings, the better she'll heal. Good luck WN.

Thanks for the comment. I will try to be more gentle and patient and honest. And thank you for the comment... seeing her perspective vocalized by someone else is helpful.


Me, 30, Husband
Her, 29, Wife
One Daughter, One Son

Posts: 232 | Registered: May 2012
Bee2011
Member
Member # 33209
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

When I would bring up painful memories to my FWH (out of the blue, during what should have been happy moments that were actually triggers for me), he took these difficult conversations as an opportunity to apologize...sincerely, remorsefully, specifically, for what he had done. No blaming, absolutely no anger, a ton of humility, and completely honest. We were sharing openly, being vulnerable, and turning towards each other to help heal.

It went a long way towards my healing.

Perhaps your BS would welcome a type of specific, remorseful, vulnerable, and sincere apology for actions that still haunt her. I did. It allowed me to "close that chapter" and move forward.


Insert glib quote here.

Reconciling.


Posts: 69 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: The Hard Road
Bee2011
Member
Member # 33209
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

And what I mean is that he apologized for whatever action it was that led to the trigger. Not blanket, vague, one-size-fits-all apologies. These gave me peace.

It can't hurt to try this approach.


Insert glib quote here.

Reconciling.


Posts: 69 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: The Hard Road
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 5:55 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I wanted to put in my 2 cents as a BS. I agree with Bee. Even though my WW and I have pretty much exhausted every detail of her As, I still bring them up too. Sometimes it can ruin an evening when I spiral into sadness. But the best you can do is answer her questions as they come up and then follow them up each and every time with an apology and empathy, as best you can. She probably isn't looking for logical answers any more. She's probably looking for emotional reassurances.

Also, I don't know what her IC is into. But I've been using Emotional Freedom Techniques for my PTSD-like triggers and it is making a huge difference for me. Honestly, when I read about EFT I thought it sounded ridiculous. But it's worked dramatically for me in a short period of time.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 6:07 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

As to answering your question, I just feel like I had control over my infidelity. If that makes sense?

This makes perfect sense, and is why your BW should be very wary.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:46 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

She probably isn't looking for logical answers any more. She's probably looking for emotional reassurances.

yep. And if you're interested in saving your marriage, you'll be there with her through this. Like I suggested, read up on trauma.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 48
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Slide the weight from your shoulders and move forward. You are afraid you might forget, but you never will. You will forgive and remember."


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Dec 2010
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I have been reading this thread from the start and have avoiding posting on it, but I did want to add my perspective on bringing up the affair during "good times"

For me, for quite a while "good times" were a huge trigger. I was blindsided by the affair and thought we had a great marriage (D'oh).

For a long time after dday, anytime we were having a good day or just relaxing peacefully, I would trigger. I am not sure exactly what caused it, maybe when I relaxed I would shift out of crisis mode and let myself feel. But mainly, during the good times, I would be reminded that we had all this before my wife chose to throw it all away.

For me, for quite some time, good times were a painful reminder of what my wife had thrown away. Which, of course would place the affair front and center and bring all the pain back.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

Why can I do it, and she can't?

BS walking softly here.
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I wanted to comment on this before I forgot it.

WS and I were talking about this last night. He and I are reacting to the A from very different places. He did the hurting, and is dealing with different things. On his side, he chose to do what he did, and he is learning to understand, fix, and then forgive himself.

On my side, I didn't choose to be on the receiving end, and I was blindsided. I am dealing with PTSD (or PISD in some circles.) We can rehash details of the A, and it doesn't make me feel better...but if he refuses to let me talk about my feelings and ideas, it would create new wounds. If he refused to respond to my Q's it would feel like he's still being secretive, and would reopen the wounds of the A.

I know you want it to go away and you want to move on. But for your BS, it doesn't go away. She has had a completely different experience than you, and the aftermath of the A has done a number on her psyche which she has no power to control, stop or speed up. She will heal when she heals. She will stop talking about it when she heals...there is no magic pill, magic IC sessions, or even set amount of time. That is the aftermath and consequence of a spouse's decision to step outside the M, and you have to accept the uncertainty and unpleasantness of her healing, getting over it, for what it is.

You should be grateful that she has decided to spend one more day with you. Personally, I believe I would heal a lot quicker if I D my H and didn't have to see him every day, sleep beside him every night. Staying with the WS is the more difficult choice. You aren't making it any easier for your BS.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
outtanowhere
Member
Member # 39001
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

In my book, cheating is the lowest, level of revenge & is most often committed by those not mature enough to know how to solve problems with logic & words.


BS - 57
SAWH - 60 multiple encounters with prostitutes and other sex workers
Married 37 years
Dday - 2/19/13 - found the emails
He promised me Heaven then put me thru hell

Posts: 646 | Registered: Apr 2013
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 7:21 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

outtanowhere...

If you can't post respectfully in this forum, you will be removed.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196464 | Registered: May 2002
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:48 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

 Not at all, and I'm not here to piss anyone off. There are some things you just don't say on a forum like SI, and one of those is saying cheating is sometimes acceptable. So I'll decline to make that argument or go into detail.

I think SI is strong enough to handle different belief systems. There are people from all types of relationships and experiences.

The reason I asked had nothing to do with pissing anyone off. It's simply understanding where you are coming from.

If one believes cheating is always wrong, different healing process. 

There are some on here that have posted similar thoughts before. I know several people personally that also feel that way. 

I will say I could see where one party having that mindset may encounter difficulties if the other doesn't also have that same mind set. I think it could actually create a catch 22. You show patience and understanding yet she knows you don't feel you did anything wrong. 

Understanding, to me, is key. I hate being micromanaged. In a relationship the quickest way to alienate me is if I feel I'm living under a microscope. I'm not like that with my partner so would chafe if I felt I was being treated that way. Looking at concern as concern rather than a tracking device was helpful. I also recognized that two people can have differences that while I may not always be proactive with because my mind set isn't that way, I can be open and understanding when situations arise. Not defensive. Not short. Not annoyed. Building a foundation of safety for another to feel comfortable bringing things up and express views that are not mine.

The problem with the sincere apology is how can it be sincere if you don't feel you've done something wrong? It's the "I'm sorry you feel that way" kiss of death. You acknowledge your choices caused her pain. You state she won't respond to pain the same way. How is she responding now? Reaching out? How is that working out for her? I'm not being snarky, a genuine question. If she's not feeling validation or remorse when she does what's her plan B?

I felt zero empathy for my ex. One of the reasons he's an ex. Understanding and compassion are a corner stone for a healthy relationship and I knew I'd never be able to manufacture either for him. I never felt my choices were ok, though. If I did I wouldn't be here as there'd be no work to do. 

When she expresses her pain and asks questions, yes, you answer, but the underlying premise sounds like it's, I'll answer but it's an almost third person informational statement along with a sympathy for her pain without the acknowledgement your choices caused it. More like a sympathy card for having a broken leg leaving off the part you dropped the piano on it because she got in the way as you were moving it.

I'm not sure how she would feel safe or validated by that. I remember my ex's response when I got home from the ER. I had forgotten beer, you see. "You ok?" followed by a sidesplittingly humorous, "next time duck". 

Result? I detached. Complete with moats and trebuchets. "Attentive" was not effective (and he could be, very). 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
outtanowhere
Member
Member # 39001
Default  Posted: 7:58 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

My apologies


BS - 57
SAWH - 60 multiple encounters with prostitutes and other sex workers
Married 37 years
Dday - 2/19/13 - found the emails
He promised me Heaven then put me thru hell

Posts: 646 | Registered: Apr 2013
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

I recommend this all over the place in SI, and I gotta do it here too: read Janis Abrams Spring's book "How Can I Forgive You".

In it she talks about four possible responses to an offense or violation. One of them is cheap forgiveness, better known around these parts as rugsweeping. That's pretty much what you're asking for with the past-in-the-past approach.

This is in contrast to three other responses: refusing to forgive, acceptance, and genuine forgiveness. I'm guessing you're hoping for the latter.

In the book, she maintains that to get there--to get to genuine forgiveness--it requires active participation on the part of both the offender and the offended. The key is that the offended needs to see that the offender truly, thoroughly, deeply understands the hurt that was caused by their actions, and--wait for it--the offender needs to demonstrate that by making amends, and especially "transfer of vigilance". That means that the offender--you--needs to know the contours of your wife's trauma so well that you can "head it off at the pass", so to speak. Like, you know what her triggers are, and when one appears on the distant horizon, you acknowledge it and preemptively defuse the situation.

Here's an article that recaps the main points of the book, but it's absolutely worth reading in its entirety and taking to heart: http://www.dianeandersoncounselling.com/client-resources/love-right-now-newsletter-archives/love-right-now-5/

Seems to me you've gotten to the point where you realize your actions in the past were possible because you didn't care enough about what your wife thought or felt....but you're not yet at the point where you realize that your current complaint is stemming from exactly the same thing. Of course she doesn't feel like it's fixed yet, and it won't until she knows it in her bones. The Spring book can guide you both to that, I think, if you really live it.

It is brave of you to bring this issue to this forum and to stick with the conversation. Good luck to both of you, truly.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)

...and this post keeps on giving. Thank you bostongirl for the book recommendation. I have ordered it and am anxious to read it.

This was a good thread...much to think about within this for both WS and BS alike.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
EmotionalFool
Member
Member # 37362
Default  Posted: 12:35 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

Not at all, and I'm not here to piss anyone off. There are some things you just don't say on a forum like SI, and one of those is saying cheating is sometimes acceptable.

Ok. Shouldnt that make it easier? U should have been able to just accpet her cheating and move on. why was it so difficult for u?


WW: 28 (ME)
BH: 28 (SI profile: CrappyLife)
D-Day- 15/10/12

Posts: 334 | Registered: Nov 2012
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 1:33 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

We'll be talking about the baby, and she'll start bringing up stuff that happened when our daughter was his age. Like suggesting there were affairs then... never out and out saying it, but hinting. Which drives me kind of crazy, because it ruins a nice moment.

Have you ever thought that YOU are the one who by your A's ruined what should be a nice moment for HER? Even if she did not talk about it, it STILL would not be a nice moment for her because she would be thinking and feeling that way. Not talking about it does not equal everything is ok, which is what it seems like you want it to mean.

Instead of feeling like she is beating up on you or ruining moments that should be pleasant, why don't you show her some compassion? Ask her what she needs during this time, during these trigger moments.

The more you try to 'put it behind you', the more resistance you will get from JM - because she is NOT done processing all of this.

2-5 years. YEARS. Not 1 year. It's way too early to 'put it behind you and move on'.

[This message edited by DeadMumWalking at 1:34 AM, July 18th (Thursday)]


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
re-separated (in-house), for good (??) <-- should really remove these, shouldn't I...

Posts: 2538 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
hitbyatruck
Member
Member # 23769
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

I rarely bring up my H's affairs. BUT when I do it is because I have triggered more than normal. I think about his affairs everyday but only bring it up maybe once every 6 months because oh my H's reaction.

Something I would love would for my husband to say he was sorry for causing all the pain he did WITHOUT me bringing it up. Even during a good moment if he said something like "I can't believe I could have ruined all we have, I'm sorry."

Your wife probably thinks about the affairs 300 times before she says 1 thing.


Married 1998, 2 kids
D-day3/27/09,he left 5/23/09
WH wants to rebuild 3/21/10
He moved back in 9/25/10,
Dec, 2011-finally putting it all together, H had multiple affairs.
Possible porn addict for 15 yrs.
01/2014- in house separation

Posts: 3279 | Registered: Apr 2009
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, July 18th (Thursday)

Something I would love would for my husband to say he was sorry for causing all the pain he did WITHOUT me bringing it up. Even during a good moment if he said something like "I can''t believe I could have ruined all we have, I''m sorry."

This.

When my FWH looks at me in a moment that I am not triggering, and says, "I am so glad you are here. I feel so lucky you were willing to work on this. I almost destroyed this," it builds up our marriage a little more. When a trigger does hit, it hurts just a little bit less, and I am more likely to approach him with it in a gentler way.

Without this, it is still putting the onus on the BS to heal themselves. It is still avoiding something unpleasant in order to preserve the peace, which in our case was a huge contributor to the A.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
Daysie
Member
Member # 38873
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

I am new here but I just wanted to say to you as a BW.

When my WH and I have a happy moment.

I look at him and think "Why"?

As simple as that !!!!


Me BS 56
Him WH 56
M 36yrs
A 32yrs ago with my then BF
DD 1 / DS 1
Who is this man ??????


Posts: 85 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

 Something I would love would for my husband to say he was sorry for causing all the pain he did WITHOUT me bringing it up

But what if he's not? Reading his post he's not sorry. Not about last year. So how do you address that? "I'm sorry you're hurting. Next time don't piss me off"?

He's not alone there. I wasn't sorry. That was my goal for ffs. I was horrified when I saw and felt what my actions did to me. Not a thought what they did to him. So, I divorced. How do you reconcile with no regret for intentional damage inflicted?

It's funny, read in the betrayed men's thread a bit a while ago and it sounds so similar, in some ways to how some feel after dday. The rage. The pain. The desire to inflict pain. The names. The detached fucking. That's how some people process pain. Leveling the one that caused it. I'm like that. Very much. Just don't know how one stays together after scorching the earth. Maybe the one that scorches "first" finds a way to make the soil fertile again? At that point does infidelity not become just one of the outrages instead of THE one? It's just "drew first blood" score keeping?

Serious questions, not facetious. I hadn't realized my ex hit it out of the park bases loaded with his shit. No more scores needed. Game over. You just take your ball and go home and watch films to see how NOT to lose again next game. Took years for me to get that. Years. 


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
hitbyatruck
Member
Member # 23769
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

not being sorry is something I can't wrap my mind around. I can understand not wanting to R but not being sorry for causing someone else pain is beyond me.

I said what would help me heal hoping to give WN a suggestion if he wants it, that's all.


Married 1998, 2 kids
D-day3/27/09,he left 5/23/09
WH wants to rebuild 3/21/10
He moved back in 9/25/10,
Dec, 2011-finally putting it all together, H had multiple affairs.
Possible porn addict for 15 yrs.
01/2014- in house separation

Posts: 3279 | Registered: Apr 2009
Later
Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

It may not be the perfect response, but for the most part, especially when we were dating it was never about Em. I wasn't thinking about her, or cheating to hurt her, or anything like that.

Does your wife find it helpful when you say things like that? As a BS, I can tell you that I thought it sounded ridiculous when I heard it from my wife.

1. Yeah, I kinda figured she wasn't thinking about me, or the kids. Or his family. Only herself.

2. I knew she wasn't trying to hurt me -- hence the sneaking and lying.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

I said what would help me heal hoping to give WN a suggestion if he wants it, that's all.

Oh, I know, hitbyatruck. My comment wasn't back to you at all or an argument. It's an excellent suggestion.

I was truly asking, what if you're not sorry? I understand most (thankfully) can't wrap their brain around someone that's not. We do exist, though

Not saying the OP is one of them. Just saying I am. That's why I had myself tested and kept going to shrinks, other than trying to identify just what the fuck that (my mother) was.

For the record...didn't even achieve my goal with my destruction. He got off on it. It was leaving that inflicted that blow. Figures. The valid healthy choice would have actually worked.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 1:40 PM, July 18th (Thursday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
hitbyatruck
Member
Member # 23769
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, July 18th (Thursday)

Maybe you aren't sorry because of how hurtful he was to you? If I physically hurt someone who was trying to hurt me I wouldn't be sorry either. Like an assault of some kind.


Married 1998, 2 kids
D-day3/27/09,he left 5/23/09
WH wants to rebuild 3/21/10
He moved back in 9/25/10,
Dec, 2011-finally putting it all together, H had multiple affairs.
Possible porn addict for 15 yrs.
01/2014- in house separation

Posts: 3279 | Registered: Apr 2009
Topic Posts: 72