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User Topic: I kicked him out
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Stop  Posted: 7:45 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

Long time lurker, first time poster. D-day was in April 2011. My BH moved out yesterday at my request. It has been a long and bumpy road, and while I want R more than anything I felt he wasn't getting the help he needed and after yet another emotional explosion I asked him to leave and find the help he needs or I can't be with him anymore.

Now I feel like a huge POS. I never wanted to give ultimatums and I know that you can't put a timeframe on healing but in the course of 2.5 years I've tried really hard to improve things on my end for what feels like no reason when he just holds all of his emotions in and pretends like nothing is wrong. Then there are these violent and hurtful outbursts that are so damaging and make me feel (among a myriad of emotions) like we've made 0 progress and I'm just wasting both of our time sticking around.

He says he wants to R, and got on the ball with his first IC appointment today <--huge progress already?! We have a 4-y-o and this is a huge adjustment for her since BH was a SAHD.

I really would just love to hear from other WSs that separation CAN be a good thing, and that I don't have to endure being treated like dirt despite being the one to cause this with my A. I understand I deserved to lose his love, trust and respect but if these issues aren't being addressed then I just feel like there's no point to staying together no matter how much we love each other.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

I don't really know enough of your story to help much, but here goes.

You are allowed to decide what's right for you. You can't control him, only yourself. Maybe it will be the motivation he needs, who knows. Or maybe it will blow up in your face. If he's stuffing his emotions, it will boil over at some point. This could turn out badly if that's the case.

It really doesn't matter if this tactic has worked for others. If its what you need then so be it. I get the sense that its not really what you want, though. Is there a gentler way to get him the help he needs?


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 545 | Registered: Jun 2011
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

You're right, background info is lacking, I just didn't want to have a ridiculously long post no one wanted to read so I thought I'd address questions as they come.

Is there a gentler way? Not one I haven't tried. I've asked him to talk to someone since day 1 and he has refused. Around 6 months after d-day he finally agreed to go to MC. We went once, MC said he wanted to see BH alone. He went a couple times, he had a big blowup and decided he wasn't going anymore.

It feels like a record on repeat. He wants to R, things are great, he hits a trigger (usually when drunk), the next day he feels bad and begs me to forgive him and stay, I do. Repeat. His outbursts are violent (typically toward himself -- punching, banging his head on things, etc) and when I get upset he threatens me with suicide. Its really ugly. His support network is practically non-existent and while I don't feel this is "his issue" I do think he could benefit significantly from IC first, then MC to help us. The therapist we saw before felt the same, and while our conversation was brief today it sounds like the new one agrees. I hope he sticks with it.

The other part that is probably really relevant to our situation is that BH is very dependent on me. As mentioned he's a SAHD. He doesn't have many friends and only goes out and does things without me when I beg him to. Most of the time I feel like he's still with me because he feels he has no where to go, that he doesn't know how to start over, and that if he comes to the realization he doesn't need me he would leave. This is my biggest fear. At the same time, I want him to CHOOSE to be with me for the right reasons and not because he feels like he can't leave. I cant live with the idea that he was trapped with me, and not here because I make him happy. I don't want it to come off as if I'm trying to teach him a lesson, but I do help this separation can help him see that he is independent and that he does have a choice. I can only help he chooses the same thing I have. I hope he chooses to be in this with me for the long haul, but also to begin our road to R the right way -- by dealing with it and working through our issues rather than pushing them to the side and trying to move on.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 9:34 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

My H and I separated 5 times (each one of them after he got drunk and angry). The last time was 2 1/2 years ago for 6 months. We were closer during the separation than we had been in probably the combined 10 years of our previous relationship, so we made a go of it after the 6 mo separation...

My experience has been that making a go of it without him having any kind of IC or even MC, is that I truly would have been better off not "reuniting." It took about one week for it to be business as usual, and my guilt over what we had just put the kids through and, truly, what I had put my H through with my A now, had me kinda voluntarily "stuck" where I am. We're fine. Kids are good. There is no fighting, there is peace, and at times, there is laughter. But he never healed. Actually, that's not a fair statement. He very well may have healed, but our marriage did not heal. All of the begging that I was doing before my A for affection and love and time together and partnership still falls on deaf ears- just like it always did... The difference is that I have stopped asking now.

So I healed me. I have decided to stay here, for now, and the consequences for my choices are that I live in a loveless, sexless, partnership-less marriage, but it's my choice. We are roommates, and for now, that's alright. But that's my decision, too. I am the breadwinner right now- so it's not about money. Maybe I'm just more risk-averse than I have proven to be in the past. I'm not punishing myself anymore because of my horrible choices. But I'm not letting him punish me anymore, either. We talk about kids and finances, and while I realize that I am not living my best MARRIED life, I am living my best life in every other aspect. And I am not looking for the external validation that I so desperately craved... Love? I've got family and friends! Partnership? I have a phenomenal job! Sex? I've got batteries...

Here's my point after that long diatribe... Make sure that if you let him come home you know that while he is working on healing his wounds (as you are helping) you are both also committed to working on a marriage. You blew up his world as he knew it. There is no arguing that. You can only help him in his healing so much. You can only take him so far, and then he has to decide how he is going to react to the shit storm that is now his life... He needs hobbies outside of you. He probably needs a job, in all honesty, but that's for you and your family to decide.

I can honestly look back on the last 13 years of my life and tell you that the #1 mistake I made was my A. #2 was letting him come back home...

Take what you need- leave the rest.

Good luck to you!


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

This makes me unbelievably sad but thank you for your open and candid response trytoforgive. You sound like an amazingly strong person, and I'm not sure I could make the same decision to stay if I were in your shoes.

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, July 23rd (Tuesday)

I'm not sure strength is the driving force... It may be the exact opposite, in fact. But I appreciate the kind words. It is what it is. I know that when I find that I can no longer live in this "arrangement," I won't, but for right now- this is where we are. And honestly, it took about 37 years to be able to look in the mirror and really like what I see. And I do. I know that there is more, but having the opportunity to get healthy and not be dependent on outside sources for happiness has been the best outcome of this whole thing.

My kids get a healthy mom- and I get a healthy me. I have no idea what will happen in the future. Maybe... Someday...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 12:14 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

His outbursts are violent (typically toward himself -- punching, banging his head on things, etc) and when I get upset he threatens me with suicide

This is concerning. Are you safe? Is he? Have you considered forcing him into a short inpatient treatment? As his W you can do that. Suicide threats can't be taken seriously enough. It would at least get him 48-72 hours of observation and intense therapy. I know it sounds extreme but, you know, violent outbursts and suicide threats are extreme too.

t/j. Trytoforgive, your story made me very sad for you and your H. I hope you find a way back to each other, or at least that you each have peace in all of this.


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 545 | Registered: Jun 2011
RSEB
Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:53 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


ME - FWW


Posts: 264 | Registered: Feb 2012
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)

longroadhome, it definitely is concerning and not something to sweep under the rug. It was addressed with his IC the short time he went and IC gave me a number I could call ICE but he's never been committed or anything of that nature. He did take anti-depressants for a while and it was awful... really awful. I felt like I lived with a zombie -- no emotion, no energy, no happieness, just a being that went through the motions of getting out of bed and doing the bear minimum to get through the day. After a while he stopped taking them and, admittedly, I was relieved. An angry husband is better than a lifeless one.

Those outbursts aren't all the time. When he has them, I try to be super cautious about my words and actions and not to provoke him. I don't leave him alone until I'm sure he's come down from the anger. Its definitely not solving the issue, but to answer your question, yes I feel safe. Frustrated but not threatened.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 9:25 AM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

I had a lot of burning questions about the separation and BH gave me permission to email his therapist. I told her she could either respond by email, I could come in to talk or she could discuss her responses with him and he could share her advice with me after. Below is what I sent and I thought I'd be interested in hearing feedback from this community too -- these first couple days have been hard because I feel like we don't even know what we're trying to achieve.
****************
In the 2.5 years since my affair this is the first time we've ever been separated. It is not a separation to determine *if* we will stay together. We both want this to work and are committed to taking the necessary steps to make that happen. When I asked him to leave our home, I felt we really needed to create some space for us to fix the obsticles in our relationship so we can move forward happier and healthier but now I have so many questions about how to do that. I realize some of these we ultimately need to work out with one another but I'd just appreciate some professional input to make sure we're headed in the right direction.

1. What can we we be doing to make this separation a positive experience rather than a negative one? Do you have suggestions for general goals we should be working toward during this time to help us rebuild trust and respect in our relationship?

2. Contact is really awkward right now because we didn't really set any boundaries or expectations for being apart. How much interaction is OK while still engaging in a healing and useful separation? How do we make the most of the interactions we do have? As the spouse who caused the betrayal, I want to be accessible and responsive to him so he knows I'm still faithful and in this for the long haul. What I don't want is for us to decide we're getting along well enough to be together again and slip back into a comfortable, non-productive routine that doesn't address our issues head on like we've done so many times before.

3. How do we know when the separation should end? An extension of question two -- I want him home, he wants to be home but I think we need an action plan for how we're going to tackle and break this damaging cycle we've been in. How do we know when togetherness, rather than space, is the best way to address these issues?

4. In your opinion, when is a good time for us to begin regular couples therapy? We started once before and the counselor said he preferred to meet with [bh] individually for a while.
********************

I wanted to ask some specific questions for example what is the best way for me to handle the emotional outbursts and/or threats should it happen again but I felt like that was a loaded question that lends itself to a whole therapy session on its own. Really feel like we could just use some direction on how to start making progress so I hope she responds soon :(


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Tryingandfailing, I understand not wanting to reconcile. I'm also keenly aware if a guy posted this he'd be skewered. 

If he is a SAHD I assume it's by both you guys agreement. I think kicking him out is pretty shitty. If he is a true danger to himself that absolutely needs to be addressed. You state you're not afraid for yourself though, so not a danger to you or your children, correct? Are these drunk incidents often? 

Some people don't want to go to IC and in light of my personal experiences with IC's really don't blame them. I also think someone telling me to go after they just blew up my life would be an unhealthy idea...for them. 

I'd think depression would be a pretty normal response. Especially if he does feel trapped. More than one or two posters here admit to feeling trapped by their position. I'd think that coupled with the betrayal would be rather depressing for sure.

As far as him staying with you because he has to, I again think more than a few may start that way, or because of the kids, or whatever, then as time goes on and work is done it can become a healthy partnership and an enjoyable one.

Look, I'm the last person to encourage two people to stay together if it's dangerous. I just can't help but imagine a man coming on this site posting he cheated then kicking his SAHM out because she's having issues coping. I can only imagine the responses and can't say I'd disagree. Guys tend to get rather fucked with the whole divorce/custody deal a large part of the time, in my experience. 

Is he a good dad and not a danger to your 4 year old? If so, then to me, he should be home. 

I'm sorry if I'm way off base here and not fully grasping the risk. There aren't a lot of details about your situation so just going by what you've posted. You state you're being treated like dirt but don't see much about how. 

What work have you done on yourself for the past 2.5 years? How have you progressed at getting to the root cause of your choices?

t/j 

(((Trytoforgive))). I'm so sorry. Glad you're handling it, but so so sorry you're having to. 



Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Fair enough. I posted here fully aware that many may not agree with my choice and I'm open to hearing both sides. To clarify a few points and address some of your questions:

I DO want to reconcile. This separation is not intended to decide if we will divorce. As far as I'm concerned (and he says he agrees) that is not on the table.

I don't understand how my gender is relevant to the responses I receive. I don't expect special treatment for being a woman.

Your assumption that his work status is by mutual agreement is inaccurate. He was in school when the A occurred. Understandably his grades slipped and eventually he dropped out. Despite many promises to try to find work and help support our family over the last couple years he has not done so. I used to get really upset about it because we were strained. I've gotten a couple promotions and raises since then and were making it work + DD likes to have him home so I just kind of deal with it. For now, I consider it part of the recovery.

He drinks a lot in cycles. It gets heavier and heavier and that's when I know a blow up is coming. He has a blow up, he's sorry, we talk about how to avoid them in the future (including cutting out or cutting back on drinking), he does for a while and then the cycle starts over. I don't know if depression causes the drinking or the drinking causes the depression but its a very clear and obvious pattern. I'd says every 2-3 months this repeats, sometimes more sometimes less.

Re IC, while I respect you opinion, IMO someone who threatens to take their life regularly requires therapy -- together or alone, that is not an issue I'm qualified to help him work through.

It may or may not be relevant but the depression stems from long before the A and has caused issues for us for many years. It's not the cause of the A (I am the cause) but its clearly not something he can work through on his own.

He is a great dad and I would love nothing more than to have him home. At the same time, every time we have these outbursts and I do nothing to stop them I feel like the stupid girl who keeps going back to the abusive relationship. For the first time since the A he seems to be taking the steps to work through the problem rather than burying it. He isn't doing anything away from home he couldn't be doing at home but the problem is this is what it took to get him to do it instead of just saying he was going to. I may have caused this but he says he still wants to be with me, and if that's the case IC and a healthy husband is what I need to be able to stay in this M. I wish asking him to leave weren't the way to get it, but its been 2.5 years, not 2.5 months and we're just spinning our wheels here. I don't have a timeframe, I just want to feel like we are finally learning to communicate and doing *something* rather than hoping for a miracle all the while the resentment and anger builds up for another round.

When I put this in words I feel like I sound angry and detached. I'm not. I'm fully invested and willing to do anything I can to be a part of and help our relationship through this. But I need to feel like I'm not the only one trying.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Also, while leaving is undoubtedly hard for him, I haven't cut him off financially, nor am I keeping him from DD. I found her childcare so he has the flexibility to look for work, attend IC, etc but he is welcome to see her as many days a week as he would like.

I would have offered to leave instead of asking him to but that only raised questions of my whereabouts and whether I had an alternate agenda. This way, he knows where I am, that I'm with DD at night, etc. I can only imagine this would have been much harder on him if I had left instead.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

When I put this in words I feel like I sound angry and detached

No, you sound concerned. I understand that completely.

Like I posted. Not many details so going by your post.

Threatening suicide is very concerning and, yep, drs should be involved.

"Outbursts" are pretty vague. Suicide threats are also. Is it "I just don't want to feel this pain anymore" or is it "I'm going to end it"?

"We have these outbursts"...is it both of you contributing? Can you pick different communication techniques?

The gender is relevant to me probably because of how I saw some responses. Not stating you're asking for special dispensation.

The drinking sure isn't helping I'm sure.

I did apologize if I had it wrong. Not many details and a pretty extreme reaction, so posted based on that. Especially, as you seemed troubled by the choice a well.

You didn't say what you've done to work on your choice or any details of the affair. Sorry if I missed the post.

I'm sorry you're both hurting.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

What work have you done on you and what have the two of you done to discuss triggers and how to deal with them effectively?

My H is three years out and still has triggers, does he do what your H is doing? No, but he did a lot of that in the first year. He also refused IC for two years. I learned how to deal with triggers, I read here on the JFO and recon to get a better idea of what helps. I tried to get my H here on SI so he could discuss how he felt with other men.

What are you doing proactively besides telling him what to do? What are your actions?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

tryingandfailing-

Not that it makes a huge difference, but where is your BH staying for now?


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

He did take anti-depressants for a while and it was awful...really awful. I felt like I lived with a zombie.

After a while he stopped taking them and, admittedly, I was relieved. An angry husband is better than a lifeless one.

Umm...except that you kicked the angry one out.

The (presumably professionally-prescribed) medication regulating his emotions was awful...for you. You had emotionally stable and that wasn't fun for you, so he started self-medicating with booze and got erratic. That didn't work out so well for you either, did it?

Serious question: if he needs medication, why wouldn't you encourage him to stay on it?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1044 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

uncertain, outbursts=violent, unprovoked anger directed at me which sometimes occurs in private and sometimes not. This weekend, unfortunately, friends and family were present so now there is that complication to deal with. No I'm not involved other than being the object of his hateful words and actions. Usually it is like a switch -- having fun and laughing one minute to seeing red, screaming and breaking things. I don't care to go into specific examples here but at the start of the outburst this weekend he pulled my shirt off in a crowd of people. I explained it upset me and embarrassed me. Then it happened a second time which he pretended was an accident and then didn't understand why I got upset -- this made him blow up in anger at me because he "didn't think it was a big deal". I'll spare the rest but this was the least hurtful and embarrassing part of the night. Threats are very direct (ie while standing by the river threatening to go jump off the bridge and storming away).

As far as working on me, I have NC with the OP. I have really changed my attitude and actions toward him and have spent a lot of time over the last couple years reassuring him, showing him I love him, being open and honest. He has access to all of my accounts. We, amazingly, are slightly better at communicating than we used to be (a huge downfall on my part that I've had to work really hard at) but we have a long way to go there on both sides of the stick. I do what he asks, but truthfully after the first 6 months or so he didn't really ask much of me anymore, just lashes out when it starts to get to him. When we have a heart to heart about what I need to do to earn his trust and respect, he tells me I'm doing everything right. Sometimes I think it would be easier if he told me a billion things I was doing wrong so at least I'd have something to work on. This is another reason I think we need therapy -- maybe he doesn't know right now what sets him off and what he needs and this can help us uncover some of those details. This is my hope anyway.

tiredgirl, I'm not sure I can really address the triggers question. I know what it looks like when he triggers and I can see there is a clear cycle but the truth is, I don't really know what specifically sets him off. When we've talked about it, he says he just suddenly feels overcome with anger but doesn't know why. I can't really associate it with a specific place/thing/action. This would be a good goal for us to work toward.

t2f, he's at a friends.

20wrongs, true but I would have divorced the lifeless one. Not that I owe you an honest response to your sarcastic remarks but I didn't ask him to go off the meds, he did it himself because he didn't like the way it made him feel or act. He didn't like the dad he had become to DD and all the awful side effects. It was his decision and since I agreed with his assessment I wasn't going to encourage him to stick with it. As someone who has been on depression meds I can speak from experience that they work best when coupled with IC to address the larger emotional issues.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 8:35 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

the start of the outburst this weekend he pulled my shirt off in a crowd of people

Whoa. Big problem here. That's not OK at all, no matter what the reason.


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 545 | Registered: Jun 2011
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

So trying,

What have you really changed about you since your A? Other than NC, and reading, what have you changed about your core self? That part of you that made it ok to have an A? Maybe that is what is triggering him, he still sees that same person before him. Nothing has really changed, words are great, you telling him you love him, but actions are better. Changing that part of you, those internal processes that said it was ok to go out and have an A because you were unhappy, or not communicating, or your H was an asshole, or whatever reason you told yourself this was ok. It sounds like you have focused a lot on him and not so much on the person in the mirror.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 8:58 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Not that I owe you an honest response to your sarcastic remarks

My observations were sincere, but you're right: you don't owe me anything. In your initial post you stated what you wanted to hear from other WSs; be advised, we're not going to restrict ourselves to what you want to hear.

Welcome to SI, where you can take what works for you, and leave the rest. I'm glad you started posting, and I hope you'll find it as helpful as I have.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1044 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

What have you really changed about you since your A? Other than NC, and reading, what have you changed about your core self? That part of you that made it ok to have an A? Maybe that is what is triggering him, he still sees that same person before him. Nothing has really changed, words are great, you telling him you love him, but actions are better. Changing that part of you, those internal processes that said it was ok to go out and have an A because you were unhappy, or not communicating, or your H was an asshole, or whatever reason you told yourself this was ok. It sounds like you have focused a lot on him and not so much on the person in the mirror.

I've done a lot of work in this area too. I'm not a religious person but I have come a long way spiritually. I do yoga and I meditate almost daily. I have spent a lot of time reading, writing and reflecting on what type of person I am, what type of person I want to be and where those two meet. I struggle the most with being a good mother and role model for DD. When I get stressed my patience is low and I have high expectations of her. I don't want to be that way and I'm working through that. My mother wasn't a good role model and so I journal about the values and morals I'd like to instill in her by example and how I can work them into age appropriate life lessons.

Those are the things that come immediately to mind. Maybe there's more. Maybe I haven't done enough. But I certainly like to think I'm not going at it with the expectation that he do all the work.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

What led you to a place where you thought it was ok to have an A? Have you figured that out?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

Ok, I'm confused. So he pulled your shirt off in front of people and you were "embarassed"?

You didn't say he was tackled by family. I can't imagine the violence needed to pull a shirt of someone while others stand and watch.

I'm the LAST person to defend violence. It just seems much is missing or what's there doesn't make sense to me.

You don't owe me answers and are not in a deposition. I understand his actions may be very wrong.

Here's the problem. Yeah, he was in school. Then his world got blown up. Concentrating on studies while he's trying to process that type of blow is pretty hard to do even when you're driven and focused.

You state he's an amazing father. I also get that. My ex is as well and I've been to the ER because of his choices a couple times. I did pick divorce. I offered to leave and give him the house. I figured if I wanted to bounce then I should be the one to do it. He wanted to so that was how it went.

You don't want to divorce. Then I'm not understanding, not that I have to. My choices fucked me up 6 ways to Sunday. It has taken 3 years to get to the point I feel confident in my progress. I struggled and floundered as some amazing members can attest. I don't see much on here about your quest other than treating him better.

Standing by the river and talking about jumping then storming off sounds like someone in fucking pain and very angry about it. Not someone with a blade to their throat, but I'm not there.

The involuntary hospitalization about sent me off the rails. My mother used to threaten me with that. The helpless position he's in does NOT need any fuel. I'd imagine that would send him over the fucking edge. I know it would for me.

Trying, you posted on here for feedback and I'm just trying to get a better understanding. If you're telling me you aren't afraid of him at all while posting about your shirt being ripped off and your reaction is embarassed? I don't understand.

I don't want to inflict pain. I'm also not one to support DV or any form of abuse regardless of letters a poster claims. I'm seeing your husband as someone that's hurting very badly and don't have enough information to not be in his corner at this point, being tossed out of his home and away from his daughter yet the goal is reconciling.

Sounds like a very painful situation for all parties and my thoughts are with you all.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:42 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)

It was a tube top and he pulled it down, I quickly pulled it back up -- I had a flood of emotion, the most prevalent being embarrassment and I wanted to leave. It happened again on the way out and this is when he went from snickering about it to raging. Not afraid of him meaning I don't think he would hit me (although often I think he would like to) but the biggest thing hurt that night was my ego and my dignity. And my friends who had to watch the awful night unfold. You're right, I'm being light on the details. I'm new and I'm hesitant about creating a permanent record on the internet. I also don't want to sit here and complain about my BH and make him sound like a monster because I know hes hurting and I love him and I'm here to help us get better, not to justify my actions or sway people to my side. I'm happy to share details that are relevant but mostly I want advice on how to start rebuilding the right way because right now I feel like we're still sitting on square 1.

I'm not going to touch the comment on suicide. While I do not worry about him 24/7 I have no doubt that his threats are real and a result of his pain. I don't feel comfortable assessing if it is a call for help or if he would truly do such a thing, all I know is that it is brought up every time he has an outburst and it is sometimes graphic and descriptive as to how it would happen which, in my understanding, is very concerning. I don't know what difference it makes whether he really plans to do it or if he is just in pain -- I couldn't live with myself if I tried to assess the cause and didn't take him seriously enough.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Feel like I've gotten a little defensive in my responses here, and I apologize for that. I realize that for one its hard to offer advice and agree or disagree with someone's choices when only seeing a snippet of several years of struggle. I do appreciate all of the suggestions and advice here and reading the threads over the last year and a half has been immensely helpful in my healing.

While the separation is still new and there is a lot of work to be done, I wanted to share something BH said last night. He said he felt this was good and he finally feels he's reached a turning point. I asked why he felt this way and he said he knows because this time I don't want to just be with you, I want to be myself again.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 9:08 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

So how are you going to feel if he gets to a point where he realizes that what happened was a deal breaker for him?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

It would be devastating. Really, really shitty. But I think it would hurt less than feeling like he's here because he depends on me too much to leave. I want him to choose to be with me, not to be with me because he has no other option. This took me a long time to be able to admit and to digest what it means if he finds his independence and doesn't want me anymore.

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

It was a tube top and he pulled it down

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

Having an affair is a horrible coping mechanism. So is humiliating your spouse in public.


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 545 | Registered: Jun 2011
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

Having an affair is a horrible coping mechanism. So is humiliating your spouse in public.


ITA and I'm kind of surprised by me being grilled about the actions surrounding it and the emotions I felt about it because IMO it was wrong and violating no matter what the circumstances were.

We were having a really great day. He even agrees it was good and we were having fun with friends and family and he can't explain what causes the sudden change.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

No, you're not the only one. Yes, this is a problem.

I understand the motivation behind it. I do not think it's acceptable at all.

Trying, I understand wanting to be careful with what you share but it's so hard to help with bits and pieces.

Let's leave him alone for a bit and concentrate on you. How long was your affair? With whom? Did you confess or did he discover? Has their been NC since day one? What did you tell yourself that enabled you to justify it?

What he said last night is very possitive. He wants to be himself again. That's an awesome feeling.

I understand your feelings about him staying there because he depends on you too much but do you see how much you are enmeshed with him as well? Since you've come on here you've posted about him. Nothing about you. No details of your choices. No list of what you've done to get to the bottom of this.

You're as dependent on his "motives" and proof of genuine desire as you assume him to be of you.

Right now I'm almost certain staying isn't because of you, necessarily. I would imagine his daughter would be top and you understand exactly why that is, right?

If you don't want to share details I'm not sure how helpful advice can be based on snippets. Don't need names and dates but a picture of what your choices have been is rather important. We've been there and made the same one's or very similar. We can help with this.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

ITA and I'm kind of surprised by me being grilled about the actions surrounding it and the emotions I felt about it because IMO it was wrong and violating no matter what the circumstances were.

I understand but problem is detail make a huge difference. My ex used to walk by and untie my bikini top when we'd be at the lake and it was totally teasing and flirty. Not malicious or exposing. There's a difference in ripping off a t-shirt and something that went a bit too far.

Details can be parsed to give a horrible picture that is not accurate or at all fair.

Again, with bits of details about one partner and NOTHING about the other I'm hesitant to say much.

Here's what we know.

You cheated.

He has express anger.

You kicked him out.

Ta da. Do you see the pretty big gaps in there?

Here's what I get from that.

An affair is one of the most violent acts you can perpetrate on a marriage.

The receiver isn't going to be pleased.

So, yeah, I'm sympathizing with the receiver and the fact he's now been evicted from his home away from his daughter.

There are two people involved here and only details about one. Assumptions happen that way.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Let's leave him alone for a bit and concentrate on you. How long was your affair? With whom? Did you confess or did he discover? Has their been NC since day one?

Affair lasted 4 months. It was a PA but we lived in different cities so our encounters were only a handful of times.

It was with a coworker. Coworkers BS found out and then contacted BH and told him everything.

NC has been since maybe a month after D-day? Its been so long I hardly remember. We still work for the same company but OM was able to immediatly move into a role that no longer required us to have contact at work. As stated, he's in a different city so there are no accidental run ins, etc.

What did you tell yourself that enabled you to justify it?

Everything under the sun -- that I wasn't getting enough attention at home, that our marriage problems stemmed far beyond the A, that it was BH's fault for not being caring/supportive/intimate enough with me, that he was depressed becuase he didn't really want me. The OM was dealing with some similar stuff in his M and we (obviously wrongly) turned to one another for support, justification and validation. He made me feel good about myself, he was genuinely interested in me and my life and he made me feel wanted again, somethign I had convinced myself I had been missing for a long time. He became my closest confidant and, as a twisted result I pushed away a lot of my friends and family who used to fill that role for me. One of my first goals when I made the decision to fix me and work toward ensuring BH that it wouldn't happen again was to rebuild the relationships outside of my M and redevelop my support network so I had a place to turn when things got tough.

I understand your feelings about him staying there because he depends on you too much but do you see how much you are enmeshed with him as well?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I never intended for it to sound as if it was a one sided relationship. Of course our lives are enmeshed, we're married and I'd like to keep it that way, and it a lot of ways I DO need him. We compliment each other greatly in a lot of ways. He is so much more of a nurturing, caretaking parent than I am and DD needs that every day -- I don't think I'm a bad parent but we parent differently and fill different roles for her. I suppose when I talk about his dependence, its really not that I need him to be able to support himself or to be completely independent of me, I just want him to rebuild his confidence and KNOW that he can. And also to work on his support network too so that when he does get frustrated with me or have bad memories come boiling over, he has a safe place to turn.

Right now I'm almost certain staying isn't because of you, necessarily. I would imagine his daughter would be top and you understand exactly why that is, right?

I absolutely think this is true but he fears if he is done with me that he will lose her too. That may have been his sole driving force to keep us together when D-day was new. But I also believe that now he doesn't want to leave me either -- he has said so numerous times in a very heartfelt manner and I belive him.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 11:09 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Thank you for your post, trying. Very helpful.

Couple of things:

I just want him to rebuild his confidence and KNOW that he can

I'm not trying to bash you. I can't help but feel, from reading this statement, you don't have a real grasp of the damage of your choices. Rebuild his confidence? You cheated on him. With a co-worker (so, someone employed...not a student). He was blindsided when the BW contacted him and his world imploded.

His confidence is going to be impacted more than just a little for quite some time.

Your concern since you've been on here is why he's staying with you and how to navigate seperation. No wonder he's having "outbursts".

Contact continued, from your post, for at least a month. Where is your concern over your choices.

I'll give you my suggestion.

1. HE COMES HOME.
2. You start to understand the depth of his pain and communicate to him how sorry you are. Regularly. Sincerely.
3. You establish transparency, if this hasn't been done yet.

I know you stated you were unhappy and your husband was depressed. Affairs don't fix that. I know you get that now. Problem is that sometimes real hard to suss the chicken vs egg when looking back. You may not have been happy but sounds like he wasn't either. I'm betting high he has a list just like yous. We don't live in a bubble. Our actions affect others.

You mention you're a bit detached anyway. So think that may have affected him more than just a bit.

I'm strongly advocating him come home. If you're unhappy you can leave. Why should he have to. Sure he'd wonder where you are and what you're doing. Think he doesn't do that now?

Stop expecting him to rebuild anything right now and work on yourself. Dissatisfation and unhappiness isn't the cause of an affair. Not saying things were Mai Tai's and Yahtzee but doubt they were for him either.

Reassure him. Use more tools than Yoga. Take a good internal inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. Something I found is our strengths can be very dangerous if not properly welded.

If you're committed to this it can work. Drive and strength. Courage. All the above will be needed.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I'm not trying to bash you. I can't help but feel, from reading this statement, you don't have a real grasp of the damage of your choices.
I don't feel bashed. I agree. But he doesn't tell me how he feels or what I can do to help or what I do that hurts him more or what it is like to be in his place. The only measure of pain I have that gives me a small window into what he's going through is reading here, the books I've read and watching his behavior. I don't want to be the person who makes a list of things BH needs to do but I also know I can't fix this alone -- there has to be buy in from both sides.

1. HE COMES HOME.
I can't do this right now. You're seeing a very surface level of my emotion. I understnad I messed up, I hurt him in a way I can't begin to imagine, but I'm not an object and I don't deserve to be treated like one. I know his pain is greater than mine and that I am the cause of his but I'm still a human being and I still get to have limits on what I will put up with and what I won't. He hit one of my limits, and I can't just let it go. Since the incident I don't want to be near him. I don't want him to touch me and talking is hard. I feel disgusted that deep down this is how he thinks of me and I will not put myself in a situation to have a repeat of that experience until he convinces me we're really on the road to recovery. If he can't do that, I can't be in this M. I lost his trust and respect, but that doesn't mean that for as long as he chooses to be apart of this M that he doesn't have to maintain mine. I don't see his actions as unforgivable or as severe as what I did but they certainly aren't OK. If this were an isolated incident I could see past it (and I have, many times) but I won't spend my whole life telling myself I deserve to be treated this way. If thats wrong and means I'm not sorry enough and that I don't care enough then I guess I'm not as committed as I thought I was because I won't be that person.

2. You start to understand the depth of his pain and communicate to him how sorry you are. Regularly. Sincerely.
I'm trying. I feel I need MC for that to happen. I can't understand without his willingness to let me in. Again I don't want to be the person who keeps making excuses and blaming BH for why we aren't progressing, HOW do I work on this part on my own?

I'm strongly advocating him come home. If you're unhappy you can leave. Why should he have to. Sure he'd wonder where you are and what you're doing. Think he doesn't do that now?

Speaking practically, I can't support two households on my income and I work too much as is to have a second job(trust me I tried when we were sinking and DH refused to get a job and let me tell you, working that much isn't practical or healthy for anyone). If I move out, then what? We let our home go into foreclosure? How does that benefit DH and DD? Or are you suggesting I be homeless while making mortagage payments for them? Should I leave our DD living in a house with no utilities so I can keep my lights on or do I just go without? Its not practical financially -- not as in not ideal, but as in can not be done. He, on the otherhand, with DD in daycare now has many free hours to look for work and secure extra support, while still having the freedom to see her anytime he wants. I don't want to sound like a heartless b!tch but I just don't see how it benefits any of us to send whats left of our lives sailing down the river. You're a WS -- if your BS stopped working as a result of the A would you be ok with that? How about a year later? Two? What about when you couldn't support the family on just your income anymore, then would it be ok for BS to continue not working? This has been a *really* tough point for me throughout this experience. I've carried all of the weight of making ends meet and its not been easy. It caused a lot of resentment and made things worse for a long time. I have worked through those feelings, found ways to get by and have us sitting comfortably now. I can't throw it out the window because it seems more "fair" that he get to stay in the house.

Stop expecting him to rebuild anything right now and work on yourself.

Reassure him. Use more tools than Yoga. Take a good internal inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. Something I found is our strengths can be very dangerous if not properly welded.

This is all great advice and appreciate it. I will put some more thought into how I can further work on myself. While I do feel I've come a long way in that area, there is always room for improvement and I can admit the drive to continue self improving comes and goes. I should be keeping it as a priority.


[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 4:59 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Is your BH staying with friends or relatives? You don't have family near you?
Do you think of your husband as a companion or as another child?


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Is your BH staying with friends or relatives? You don't have family near you?
Do you think of your husband as a companion or as another child?

Ouch.

He is with a friend. No family nearby and I don't have any friends here either. Literally 0. All of my time is spent working or with DH. The friends referenced earlier are not local. We were out of town visiting family.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

UO is spot on with all she has said and the advice she gave you.
You haven't answered the second part of my question, however I know by how you have handled this how you feel about him. His "punishment"was he had to leave the house. Even though you blew up his world and yes he was acting immature, but he wasn't the one who cheated.

From all you've written all I can read is how bad he's treated you. I think that what he has done to you is/was wrong,yet what you did to him is no picnic either.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

UO is spot on with all she has said and the advice she gave you.
You haven't answered the second part of my question, however I know by how you have handled this how you feel about him. His "punishment"was he had to leave the house. Even though you blew up his world and yes he was acting immature, but he wasn't the one who cheated.
From all you've written all I can read is how bad he's treated you. I think that what he has done to you is/was wrong,yet what you did to him is no picnic either.

I did answer the second part. My response was "ouch". Nothing I have said indicates I treat my husband like a child.

Asking him to leave was not his punshment. Again, I fucked up, I'm paying my time, I'm still working to be a better person and I have no expectations for when or if he might ever truly forgive me -- and yet I'm here still trying. But if I had repeat unacceptable behavior toward him that was intended to hurt him and I didn't treat him well, I'd expect him to do the same to me. At some point, there has to be a cutoff for what you will put up with, even as the WS.

I personally find it disturbing that anyone can suggest that my asking him to leave was wrong. At what point is it ok? They're hurt so they get a free pass for everything, including abuse? I have stopped the damaging behavior. He has not. I'm not playing the victim and I don't need anyones approval but to me saying this is OK is what someone who is abused says while they continue to let it happen.

I didn't come here to cry about how bad I have it. And while you are all free to assess whatever aspects of my relationship you please, I didn't ask whether I should let him come back home. Its not on the table at this point. If you'd like to tear me apart fine, but if you're all here to help like you say you are, suggestions on HOW we work through this and what we can be doing to rebuild trust during the separation would be appreciated. I'm stepping off the defensive box and not commenting any more on whether the decision for him to go was justified.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 5:35 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

You can't effectively work on it apart. Do you think that your BH feels that you could be contacting your AP...even if you aren't? You put a lot of emphasis on your safety...what about his? You abused him too with the affair.

You and he need to be able to sit down and discuss rationally your relationship. If you fear him that much to send him away,do you two really need to be together


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

We weren't effectively working on it together. I never came here with the intention of beating him down to some low-life scum. I was trying to give examples and address the questions tHat were asked. He is a great husband and a great dad and i want to he with him more than anything but he has some really deep rooted anger that is not being handled in a healthy way, much like i didnt handle my emotional issues in a good way. He has said this separation is good and I think it's going to be good because we're finally doing something to move forward. He's in IC, were talking, we're sharing fears and feelings... All things we weren't doing before he left. If we both feel it was the right move, I don't understand why everyone is hung up on telling me its wrong. Has no one here ever gone through a separation to help heal their marriage? If both parties agree its best, who is anyone else to say its not worth trying when nothing else has?

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Look at the obvious. You are working well a.p.a.r.t. Not together. It needs to be versatile. You work well both ways.
Did you come here for our advice or advice that resembles what you are already doing? Look at UO'S post count..this woman has given great advice to many. If you can't work this out together in the same house, your marriage is through. Work on fixing why you cheated.
I am sure your BH realizes he has anger issue.Marriages are fixed by working on them together as a couple. Each person working along with the other to reconcile their differences.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:11 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Tryingandfailing, while you say you are both ok with the seperation the title of your thread is "I kicked him out". That's bullshit to me. Completely.

You can't have it both ways. You feel completely safe and think he's a wonderful father, yet you are being abused. What? It's one or the other.

No one is saying you need to feel unsafe because you're a wayward. Not seeing what you've described as abuse. I'm not there. I'm not you.

I can only share what I saw. Tons of info on him and his actions zippededooda about yours until like the 5th request.

If you both decided to seperate then unless you're a drama student perhaps a better title of the thread would have been in order.

Since you seem to both have this seperation thing handled not sure what help you need. You seem to think he needs to shoulder some of the work. I think he's a long way from being able to even start. Now he's away from his daughter and you're telling him he needs to hoop hop for you to feel comfortable about being around him.

I would ask you to think about something. You feel by him pulling your tube top down that you don't want to be near him or even talk to him. What do you think he feels about proximity to you after your tube top and pretty much everything else was removed by someone not your husband.

I know you're new here and I might be a different posting style for your needs right now. There are many very wise members who can help you. I urge you to put the hurt collecting on hold and take a tally of the unilateral decisions you've made for your husband. You may see how he can be more than a little pissed and not have a good handle on how to cope.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 7:21 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I feel disgusted that deep down this is how he thinks of me and I will not put myself in a situation to have a repeat of that experience until he convinces me we're really on the road to recovery. If he can't do that, I can't be in this M. I lost his trust and respect, but that doesn't mean that for as long as he chooses to be apart of this M that he doesn't have to maintain mine.

Why does this disgust you?

Look, you can't put the responsibility of repairing this M in his hands. This is your job. You blew it up. Is he responsible for his behavior? Yes. But trying to work on R while S doesn't work well, my H and I tried it for 5 months. I finally had to tell him either I moved back in or we filed. Nothing was getting accomplished with me being out of the house. And we were doing MC once a week, and I was doing IC. Have you done any IC for yourself?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I don't often- or really ever- disagree with either UO or FRM, and I'm all for 2x4's along with everyone else, but I have gotta say- this is 2 1/2 years post d-day- not 2 1/2 months or weeks. I know everyone heals on their own timeline, but it's been long enough for him to at least start the process for himself. This is not a brand new WS- she's just new to us.

Last year, almost 3 years after d-day, my H quit his job of 18 years with all benefits because he didn't like it anymore. I believe his exact words were, "You didn't consult me when you fucked our friend, why should I have to consult you about gigantic life decisions like quitting my job?" You know what? Point taken. My take-a-shit meter is awfully high because I realize what I have done. I knew I had exploded his existence as he knew it, and so, even 3 years later, I said OK- go do. Be happy. It's been 14 months now that he hasn't worked- hasn't sent out one resume, in fact- and last month, I finally told him that he had to find a job, or he had to find somewhere else to live. This isn't about my A. It's about whether or not we're going to at least be a cohesive unit that launches our children off into some sense of stability. Everything that a WS is supposed to do, I did (without even knowing that I was supposed to do it) IC, MC (by myself) NC, no TT, full story out in a matter of weeks, honesty, transparency, calling and taking pics of where I was, crying, snotting, begging, remorse... You get the idea... There is only so much we can do- and so we can try different ways. I love my H- very much. I desperately want him to try and find a way to forgive me and be married and be in love and share and be partners... Maybe it's a dealbreaker and I am healed enough now to be ok with that. There's only so much fighting and going around in circles until SOMETHING has to change.

We tell WSes all the time not to put a time-line on healing, but 2 1/2 years is long enough for a BS to figure out how start healing- to at least make an effort. We tell WSes that have been posting since d-day at 2 and 3 years out all the time. Why is this different? Abuse and humiliation at 2 1/2 years out seems to be little excessive, and I don't know the whole story, either, but if a separating, cool-down, let's-figure-out-how-to-pull-this-thing-together time is needed, then it's what is needed. I have no idea (and neither does anyone else) how many different things tryingandfailing tried before this was her last straw. I happen to agree that it is VERY difficult to heal a marriage apart- but it can be done. And it has been done. WSes have choices, too. We can stop the bleeding from the life threatening wound that WE have inflicted, but we can't give our BSes the will to live after that. Her BS HAS to take over at some point and figure out how to heal. And just because she is not flogging herself in guilt and self-loathing doesn't mean she's not horribly sorry for her choices. (and I know that's not what is expected).

She wants her marriage to work. She, 2 1/2 years later, doesn't want to be treated like shit under his shoe, but also doesn't want to give him a list of thing to do to make HER feel better about the marriage- because it's pretty clear to me that she is pretty aware of her role in the destruction...

Sounds pretty normal to me...

I am extremely passionate about this, apparently. My keyboard just took a beating...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Boy... I don't ever disagree with TG, either, but this:

Look, you can't put the responsibility of repairing this M in his hands. This is your job.

I 100% disagree. From your posts, I think I know that you and HL have done a whole lot of repairing your marriage TOGETHER Not just you- not just him. You got to a place where you could work together to heal your broken M.

Please, understand, I know that the triage work has to be done by the WS, but once (if ever) the trauma is manageable, the BS has to be involved in the M rebuilding. It's not a one-sided relationship. It's supposed to be a partnership- rebuilding takes more than one person- repairing takes both...

I recognize that this subject hits WAY close to home, so if I need to, I'll step back...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

She wants her marriage to work. She, 2 1/2 years later, doesn't want to be treated like shit under his shoe

I get what you're saying, trying. Didn't see that she was being treated like that.

I agree with the take shit meter. That's why I am backing out. I do think Yoga, journaling and meditating ain't the tools needed. That's just me, though and kick boxing is more my style.

Be kind to your keyboard. Those little suckers are quite valuable

Keep posting, trying. I've said what I feel and will let others that may see a different approach weigh in.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

trying your right about HL and I. But the first two years were spent with me busting my ass while he did nothing. I fixed me, and tried to help him. I realized the best thing I could give him was me with my shit fixed. I carried the weight. And when HL messed up, he carried the weight, and then we learned to carry it together.

I agree that her H at some point has to start his healing process. I have an issue when a WW comes on here and focus's solely on the actions of her H. And then he ends up kicked out due to anger and triggers. HL still gets pissed at over three years out, is he doing what her H is? No. But then again, he is here on SI because he royally fucked up in another way.

JMHO, as a WW if you want to R, you better get used to a very pissed off H because you decided to go fuck someone else. I see the whole tube top thing as very passive aggressive. I find it interesting that she has an issue with how he sees her now.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
trytoforgive
Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

UO, I understand that we have a very small picture of this story, and it's possible that I just might be projecting. (My keyboard would agree that it's possible that I am projecting...) Your insights are always invaluable, and I wish you wouldn't step back. t/j- I don't like that I can't PM you anymore, sister :)

From a few of her posts, it seems to me that trying wants to NOT focus on or talk about all of the hurtful things that her BH has done because she wants the focus to be on their healing- even though she's asked him to leave (and I agree, UO, that "I kicked him out" sends up immediate "Oh NO YOU DIDN'T!!!" reactions). I try hard not to involve my H's As (RA's and others I found out about after d-day) when I post, as rarely as that is, because I'm still working on me- I want to fix ME- and I came here to fix US. Fixing me was the byproduct...

I agree, TG, the best possible thing that can be done when your BS does nothing is to be and give the best "you" that you can. I am assuming- you know what that does- that she is trying to do this- and has done this for the last 2 1/2 years. It is my understanding from her posts that she wants to save her marriage (Love talking about her in the 3rd person as if she can't "see" me) She's not looking for pats on the back for "throwing the asshole out." She's looking for guidance and is open to suggestions about making her a better her- I think.

Again, I'm all for 2x4's for struggling, head-up-their-ass Waywards, I just don't see that here- and I have aready said that this is close to home for me, so my approach to this is different.

You are all tremendous at making WSes dig deep and look at the painful things that we've done, and I learn everyday from all of you... My perspective on this one is, admittedly, different...

[This message edited by trytoforgive at 8:36 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, July 25th (Thursday)


I don't often- or really ever- disagree with either UO or FRM, and I'm all for 2x4's along with everyone else, but I have gotta say- this is 2 1/2 years post d-day- not 2 1/2 months or weeks. I know everyone heals on their own timeline, but it's been long enough for him to at least start the process for himself. This is not a brand new WS- she's just new to us.
Last year, almost 3 years after d-day, my H quit his job of 18 years with all benefits because he didn't like it anymore. I believe his exact words were, "You didn't consult me when you fucked our friend, why should I have to consult you about gigantic life decisions like quitting my job?" You know what? Point taken. My take-a-shit meter is awfully high because I realize what I have done. I knew I had exploded his existence as he knew it, and so, even 3 years later, I said OK- go do. Be happy. It's been 14 months now that he hasn't worked- hasn't sent out one resume, in fact- and last month, I finally told him that he had to find a job, or he had to find somewhere else to live. This isn't about my A. It's about whether or not we're going to at least be a cohesive unit that launches our children off into some sense of stability. Everything that a WS is supposed to do, I did (without even knowing that I was supposed to do it) IC, MC (by myself) NC, no TT, full story out in a matter of weeks, honesty, transparency, calling and taking pics of where I was, crying, snotting, begging, remorse... You get the idea... There is only so much we can do- and so we can try different ways. I love my H- very much. I desperately want him to try and find a way to forgive me and be married and be in love and share and be partners... Maybe it's a dealbreaker and I am healed enough now to be ok with that. There's only so much fighting and going around in circles until SOMETHING has to change.

We tell WSes all the time not to put a time-line on healing, but 2 1/2 years is long enough for a BS to figure out how start healing- to at least make an effort. We tell WSes that have been posting since d-day at 2 and 3 years out all the time. Why is this different? Abuse and humiliation at 2 1/2 years out seems to be little excessive, and I don't know the whole story, either, but if a separating, cool-down, let's-figure-out-how-to-pull-this-thing-together time is needed, then it's what is needed. I have no idea (and neither does anyone else) how many different things tryingandfailing tried before this was her last straw. I happen to agree that it is VERY difficult to heal a marriage apart- but it can be done. And it has been done. WSes have choices, too. We can stop the bleeding from the life threatening wound that WE have inflicted, but we can't give our BSes the will to live after that. Her BS HAS to take over at some point and figure out how to heal. And just because she is not flogging herself in guilt and self-loathing doesn't mean she's not horribly sorry for her choices. (and I know that's not what is expected).

She wants her marriage to work. She, 2 1/2 years later, doesn't want to be treated like shit under his shoe, but also doesn't want to give him a list of thing to do to make HER feel better about the marriage- because it's pretty clear to me that she is pretty aware of her role in the destruction...

Thank you for commenting. I'm a sobbing mess but I cant express enough how much I appreciate hearing that someone understands.

As I said in my first post, I've never posted before but I've been reading a long time. I know how shredded new WSers get when they come on here pointing fingers and denying blame and I genuinely think that the advice here is great. Even without posting it has helped me a lot. It was not my intent to come here and do that -- this separation is very new and I feel like I'm walking into it blindly. I was hoping to get suggestions and hear from others on how to make it a positive one. Just because I feel strongly that the separation is the right step right now, doesn't mean I have all the answers. It also doesn't mean I expect people to come here and only tell me what I want to hear -- I know thats not how this community works and its one of the things that makes it most effective.

uncertain, IDK if I just wasn't clear in my descriptions of our relationship or if you are only choosing to read certain parts but I don't thrive on drama and I'm not changing my story. His departure was not something we sat down and agreed on in advance. He didn't want to go and despite begging to stay I asked him to leave anyway. It wasn't in a fight, there were not mean things said, I just informed him that after the weekend events we needed some space to figure out a plan for how we're going to move forward instead of continuing this ugly, devastating pattern we've been in since d-day. After he left I felt like garbage for asking him to go which is where the title of my post came from and I stated so in my original post. He left grudgingly, but after a day away he told me he thought this was a good move and that good things were going to come of it. The same day he made an appointment with an IC and saw her the day after that.

As far as the abuse goes, its not physical and its not all the time but it happens. I'm not afraid in the sense that I don't expect to end up in the hospital or a grave but that doesn't make it any less hurtful or harmful. I'm not afraid in the sense that I know its sporadic and targeted as a response to his untreated pain. But after two years of putting up with it and letting it go under the vail of "I deserve this -- I hurt him so its ok for him to hurt me", there need to be turning point for when we start to work through it and take steps to improve the situation so neither of us is any longer inflicting new pain on the other.

I do think Yoga, journaling and meditating ain't the tools needed. That's just me, though and kick boxing is more my style.
So you've been around a while. Do you generally go around telling people what's helping them heal and improve themselves can't be working because it isn't what you would do? Would you tell someone who turned to god that that is the "wrong" way to go about it? I think you're pretty righteous to assume you know what works for everyone and what doesn't. Of all the attacking I've taken in this thread, this is probably the most offensive thing I've read.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 11:20 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:30 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Look at the obvious. You are working well a.p.a.r.t. Not together. It needs to be versatile. You work well both ways.
Did you come here for our advice or advice that resembles what you are already doing? Look at UO'S post count..this woman has given great advice to many. If you can't work this out together in the same house, your marriage is through. Work on fixing why you cheated.
I am sure your BH realizes he has anger issue.Marriages are fixed by working on them together as a couple. Each person working along with the other to reconcile their differences.
Again I feel like selective reading is in play here. This is great advice for someone who's BH is willing to put in the effort to work it out together. Mine was not. He would only agree to it when he felt badly about how he had treated me, and then a couple days later when the dust settled it was no longer a priority for him and it got pushed to the wayside. Over, and over, and over, and over again. I CANNOT WORK ON US BY MYSELF, I can only work on me and my actions and I have and it was time well spent because I don't think we could make progress together today if I was still the same person I was two years ago, but at some point there has to be a joint effort if we're ever going to really start to recover. I'm not telling anyone here anything they don't know and that I haven't read here 100 times.

Thank you for your unjustified assumption about my marriage being over but thats not how I see it. The way I see it is we tried one thing that failed (several times) and to sit around doing the same thing hoping for different results is not progress. Instead, we're trying to navigate a new approach and hoping for a better outcome.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:42 AM, July 26th (Friday)

So you've been around a while. Do you generally go around telling people what's helping them heal and improve themselves can't be working because it isn't what you would do?

Do you feel you have improved yourself? Trying, I'm not you or in your situation. I did not choose to reconcile with my ex for a number of reasons. A big one? I had no ability to respect ANY pain he could show me. None. He never did and refused to see my actions as cheating as they were never hidden. I recognized in order to build I'd need to shoulder that load as I had made those choices.

Coupled with that realization was the recognition of the true horror I had inflicted on myself. The internal work was painful. Still is at times. As I evicted, examined, identified thought processes I created a vacuum. For every toxic coping skill and pattern I eradicated there also had to be a healthy one created, learned, tried in real time and assessed. I still stumble.

I am far from an authority and don't claim to be. Your story struck me for a number of reasons. While each story is a bit different there are some similarities that establish a commonality, of sorts. A starting point. Patterns. If you've lurked for a bit you see the first posters. Reeling after reality sets in. Trying to wrap their minds around the destruction we caused ourselves and our families.

All that was missing from your posts. Yes, you acknowledge your part. You focused on his and the need for him to leave. I get you didn't feel like posting details or bashing your husband but that void is usually filled with a pretty fair picture of at least "our" choices to cheat and how that mess started. Nowhere. No length. No context of what happened. How is was discovered. Just his vague lack of dealing and your frustration he hadn't rebuilt his confidence or desire to remain because of you rather than inspite of you.

I've apologized if I've missed something. I've re-read your posts. I will defend anyone regardless of label I feel is being treated unfairly or harshly.

Kicking your spouse out is a very extreme act. As you yourself stated. It's disruptive to your daughter. Painful for all. With so little initially provided it was stunningly unfair response to such a harsh set of actions that the cluster fuck of cheating is, to me. I took time before responding and wrote my post to you at least 6 times.

If I didn't feel you cared about your family I honestly wouldn't have bothered. I do. I also think that there are things that maybe have been dismissed or overlooked. You say you've changed how you treat him. Well, isn't removing him as harsh as it could pretty much get?

You're right that it takes two. Maybe there were Herculean efforts made that did not work. I don't know as none have been talked about.

Getting through betrayal is tough. Maybe it's a deal breaker for him. Maybe for you. Can you tell if he's cycling? Do you reach out? Have you let go of outcomes? What triggers him?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 2:07 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Unjustified?
You have a way of taking a stab at people when they don't see things as you do. I can agree that the way you were going wasn't working.
However, saying a marriage can't work apart is not unjustified.It's a band-aid on gaping wound (being apart).
I can tell you are use to having things your way or at least go your way.
Your BH getting IC is good. If his anger is that bad he definitely needs it.
I somehow missed the 2.5 years.Forgive me.
One thing to remember is you cannot change people if they don't want to change or don't realize they need to. What you can change is yourself and the things you know you do that hurt the marriage.
Him pulling your top down was out of line,however you sending him away against his will was too.
The pain of infidelity lasts for years. Year 2 is the worst. Your BH needs to lay off the drinking so he doesn't let the alcohol compound his anger.
My take on his behavior is he embarrasses you out of immaturity and because he has also been embarrassed by your betrayal.
I also believe he needs to get a job. I believe you love him,but you also resent him. I believe the separation helps you not resent him further.
However, you two will have to be able to work this out together under the same roof or this marriage will fail.

You have painted him the color of monster on here,but your betrayal makes you a monster to him. You two are really going to have to cooperate to save this marriage.

A word of caution, if you try to guide us on what we should post to you,then most people are going to bow out. There is no way to pour water in a glass that's already full.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
FinallyHappy
Member
Member # 308
Default  Posted: 3:19 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

Having an affair is a horrible coping mechanism. So is humiliating your spouse in public.

I totally agree.

Had anyone ever pulled down my shirt in public, not only once but twice in front of friends and family (or ever for that matter), they'd not only be escorted from my home but if I had my way, they'd be in fucking jail.

I love this forum, but I don't get this response from the majority at all.

Since it's been years from Dday, and the BH is pulling this sort of shit and threatening suicide, not working, and having angry outbursts whilst drinking? And molesting his wife in public?

Please, child.

{{{tryingandfailing}}}

You're the one riding this horse, so you're the only one making the decisions here, not us. I'd have made the same ones if I were you. smile:

Hopefully he'll get a job.

[This message edited by FinallyHappy at 4:08 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


"Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none."

~Ben~

Posts: 7321 | Registered: Jul 2002 | From: WI
FinallyHappy
Member
Member # 308
Default  Posted: 4:01 AM, July 26th (Friday)

If you both decided to seperate then unless you're a drama student perhaps a better title of the thread would have been in order.

Yes. Because all newbies are more concerned about the title of their thread than getting help when they're desperate, hurting, and mostly ignorant to the dynamics.

I'm sure you've never been that ignorant, self-entitled newbie, have you?



I would ask you to think about something. You feel by him pulling your tube top down that you don't want to be near him or even talk to him.

Good. Lord.

They were at an out of town gathering of family and friends (Two years after Dday). He got drunk and PULLED HER TOP DOWN TWICE. Then suggested he was going to jump off a bridge and apparently this wasn't the worst of it.

He repeats this behavior every 3-4 months. I wouldn't accept it either. That. is. abuse.

I mean, could you imagine how this scenario would play out if it was a BW/WH?

So let's see. Two (and more) years after finding out about the affair, the BW and the WH go out of town for a family/friend event. The BW gets drunk and cuts the pants off the WH in front of all, leaving his dangly bits on display. TWICE. She then yells and screams and threatens to jump off a bridge. And a bunch of other stuff.

I'll tell you what. Neither situation would be accepted in my FOO or my reality. EVER.

He needs help. I'm sure glad he might get it now. If so, perhaps they have a chance.


"Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none."

~Ben~

Posts: 7321 | Registered: Jul 2002 | From: WI
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 7:39 AM, July 26th (Friday)

FinallyHappy

That was what I was trying to get at with those questions. There really seems to be a disconnect here. At 2.5 years somehow public humiliation is a reasonable response? I don't think so.

I get it. I've been in the middle of this mess I've created long enough to know that there are times, even after a couple years out that a BS' pain sends them off the rails. Everyone' reaction to betrayal is different as much as it us the same.

The problem I'm having is that he CHOSE to humiliate her by pulling her top down. Her tolerance for that behavior belongs to her alone. If she needs a break to allow him to pull together his priorities, that makes sense to me. Sounds like he may be responding positively to this "extreme action.".

Look, I agree that R while separated is not a good idea. I'm seeing this more as her telling him to take some time to decide where he's at and do some things that make the M work for both of them.

Tryingandfailing- you have every right to decide what treatment you are willing to forgive in the context of your situation. Him humiliating you may be an expression of the humiliation he feels, or it may be a way of him saying "hey, you went out and showed your stuff to someone else so why can't I do it?" I get that, doesn't make it right.

Suppose he comes back home, what happens if he doesn't get a job? If he drinks again? If he does something like that again?

How are you treating him? Is it possible you've reached a point of perceived complacency and that's setting him off? I'm not justifying his actions, but you've also acted in a way that can't be justified. It really does take two. You are aware that he's still in pain. What part of this do you own?

[This message edited by longroadhome at 7:41 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 545 | Registered: Jun 2011
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, July 26th (Friday)

You have painted him the color of monster on here,but your betrayal makes you a monster to him. You two are really going to have to cooperate to save this marriage

This is why she is getting the responses she is.

Difficult to post to a WW who's first post on here is about kicking out her BH and no backstory is given about her choices and the work she has done. She has not focused at all on the fact that she has caused massive destruction in this man's life. Some time spent on discussing that may have netted her different responses.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4513 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, July 26th (Friday)

I also don't want to sit here and complain about my BH and make him sound like a monster because I know hes hurting and I love him and I'm here to help us get better, not to justify my actions or sway people to my side.

We compliment each other greatly in a lot of ways. He is so much more of a nurturing, caretaking parent than I am and DD needs that every day -- I don't think I'm a bad parent but we parent differently and fill different roles for her.
He is a great husband and a great dad and i want to he with him more than anything

I must be missing something here, I really don't see how I have painted him as a monster. What I have said is that I am hurt from his coping methods and inability to let us work together, that I am concerned for him, and that I want to do what it takes to make this better. I'm sorry for not covering details of 2.5 years of self and relationship healing work into my first post -- I'd still be writing my post from 3 days ago if I had tried to do that.

I'm not afraid of criticism and the advice isn't falling on deaf ears but but it seems to me that if there are missing details that would make it easier to give advice, it probably makes more sense to ask questions than make assumptions about what I have or haven't done and whether or not I've done my part in this. I mean honestly, how do you take seriously the advice from someone who said that your BHs suicide threats seemed more like a cry of pain than an action they might execute on? Thats not helpful to anyone.

Everyone seems to agree that while the WS has much individual work to do, we need to work on this together. What I'm not seeing here is suggestions for how to do that. I feel like his actions are very normal for someone who has just found out and maybe for several months after that but if after 2.5 YEARS your BS isn't opening up, telling you what they need, expressing when they are hurt/angry/frustrated/insecure, how can I still work toward meeting what he needs from me to heal? Obviously his new IC and eventually our MC will be a huge part of that but I know its not all of it.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 10:01 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, July 26th (Friday)

First off: this sounds like a really difficult and painful situation. I'm glad you're here and I'm glad you're talking about this stuff.

There has been a lot of back and forth on this topic. The thing that keeps jumping out at me is that you, the OP, keep asking for what you can do to make this separation a healing event rather than a step toward divorce or dissolution.

It is good and important to be proactive. But there is also too much of a good thing. One of the lessons that is hardest to learn is that each person has to carry his or her own water. You need to develop your own capacity to deal with hard situations healthily. So does your husband.

A WS can try to help a BS heal, but ultimately the BS him or herself has to do it. That's just the shitty simple fact.

You and your husband are people, human beings with human flaws. You both were before the A and you both are after. It sounds like you both had some real difficulty coping effectively with tough situations before the A. Your A was one example of a poor means of coping. It sounds like you have done some good work on fixing some of that which is great. Because the only person you can heal is yourself.

Some people are holding your feet to the fire because its really easy up delude oneself about accountability sometime. That's ok.

The thing is, even if you have completely got your act together, it is up to your husband and him alone to get his act together.

It is not your fault that he has not gotten a job and become a self-supporting adult.

It is not your fault he drinks.

It is not your fault that he stuffs his emotions until they explode in a caustic mess when he's drunk.

It can both be true that you made a rotten choice in dealing with a tough situation AND your husband is doing the same.

You don't have to put up with abuse. You don't have to live with someone who humiliates you in public. It is not only good that you have boundaries, it is ESSENTIAL that you have boundaries.

And that extends to boundaries around what you CANNOT be responsible for. You can't make him be a responsible, sober person with well developed conflict management skills. You can't.

You can draw your boundaries and insist he abide by them. You get to do that. Even if you are human and fucked up once upon a time you get to do that.

You are best served, no matter what, to hold yourself to equally high standards, of respectful treatment and honesty and compassion, without compromising yourself.

These are some of the hardest things to learn, but they're the best you can hope for out of really hard marital crunches like this.

Hang in there. Good luck. I think you made a hard choice but a good one. Do done reading about codependency and think about where the limits of your responsibility really are.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, July 26th (Friday)

I never wanted to give ultimatums and I know that you can't put a timeframe on healing but in the course of 2.5 years I've tried really hard to improve things on my end for what feels like no reason when he just holds all of his emotions in and pretends like nothing is wrong. Then there are these violent and hurtful outbursts that are so damaging and make me feel (among a myriad of emotions) like we've made 0 progress and I'm just wasting both of our time sticking around.


It feels like a record on repeat. He wants to R, things are great, he hits a trigger (usually when drunk), the next day he feels bad and begs me to forgive him and stay, I do. Repeat. His outbursts are violent (typically toward himself -- punching, banging his head on things, etc) and when I get upset he threatens me with suicide. Its really ugly.


The other part that is probably really relevant to our situation is that BH is very dependent on me. As mentioned he's a SAHD. He doesn't have many friends and only goes out and does things without me when I beg him to.

He did take anti-depressants for a while and it was awful... really awful. I felt like I lived with a zombie -- no emotion, no energy, no happieness, just a being that went through the motions of getting out of bed and doing the bear minimum to get through the day. After a while he stopped taking them and, admittedly, I was relieved. An angry husband is better than a lifeless one.

These make him seem to be the main reason your marriage is in the condition it is in.

Has he always been as you described?


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, July 26th (Friday)

I mean honestly, how do you take seriously the advice from someone who said that your BHs suicide threats seemed more like a cry of pain than an action they might execute on?

First of all that was NOT said. I said there was a broad range and without information it was hard to advise.

Less information makes giving advice easy? Sure. If you want generic cut and past.

Didn't ask you for a War and Peace novel just a few facts like was NC established. Good lord.

Yep, boundaries are essential. I don't consider your requirement for him to have confidence and stay because he wants you a boundary. I consider that an entitled overreach.

You can't do it alone and he absolutely needs to start to heal. No question about that. But tell me, trying, he's comes to this realization after you kicked him out. So has he or is he feeling like he needs to do this to get home?

Not sure how you accomplish healing through seperation.

You posted about his outbursts. Does something trigger him? Is he able to communicate that with you? When you talk about the affair does he have questions? Did you do a timeline? Did you give him all the truth or was that provided by the BW? Did he ask you to leave your job and was that possible? The OM is still with the company, correct? You've read on here how many BS's found it impossible to heal in that situation.

Again, as I've said countless times, you don't have to remain married. There is nothing wrong with feeling the relationship is toxic.

How do you feel you've changed since your choices?

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:17 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, July 26th (Friday)

One of the lessons that is hardest to learn is that each person has to carry his or her own water. You need to develop your own capacity to deal with hard situations healthily. So does your husband.

A WS can try to help a BS heal, but ultimately the BS him or herself has to do it. That's just the shitty simple fact.

You and your husband are people, human beings with human flaws. You both were before the A and you both are after. It sounds like you both had some real difficulty coping effectively with tough situations before the A. Your A was one example of a poor means of coping. It sounds like you have done some good work on fixing some of that which is great. Because the only person you can heal is yourself.

You worded this much better than I could have. I DO feel accountable for my actions and the damage I've caused, but I also have healed enough to relize what you outlined above. I guess the root of my question is that I'm not ready to give up on him because I do still love him dearly and I do think that we still have a chance, we just haven't found the right path yet. I don't know how to get us on that path. And I want to help him find the strength he needs to start facing this head on in a helpful, not deliberately hurtful, way. Maybe asking him to leave isn't right or isn't what everyone would have done but something had to break the cycle so we could reset and try a new approach.

A huge part of what I have been working on is being able to talk with him openly and honestly. I've been doing just that and its been met with a lot of backlash from him. If I tell him something hurts my feelings he gets angry and shuts down. Doesn't want to talk about it. It makes me feel like crawling back into my emotional hole and covering the tracks. Today he admitted that when I tell him these things it feels like I'm criticizing him and he is being lectured. It felt really good to be able to tell him that I've been burying feelings for a long time and it was one of the key factors that has led to many poor choices I've made. I reiterated that I don't intend to point fingers and I'm open to criticism about my approach with him but that I want to be able to talk to him in a way that reassures him we have no secrets or repressed feelings because then we find other ways to cope. I told him when I say something is lacking, it doesn't mean he is doing something wrong and needs to fix it, it just means that I want him to know its bothering me so we can talk about it and figure out how to address it together. It felt really good to be able to state that to him and let him know why it hurts so much when he just shuts down.

These make him seem to be the main reason your marriage is in the condition it is in.

Has he always been as you described?


Not at all. The depression has been ongoing for a long time, starting before we even met (we've been together 9 years) but all the other behavior has been a direct result of the A.

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Sorry I misunderstood. Can you clarify for me what you meant when you said this please?
Standing by the river and talking about jumping then storming off sounds like someone in fucking pain and very angry about it. Not someone with a blade to their throat, but I'm not there.

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, July 26th (Friday)

If I tell him something hurts my feelings he gets angry and shuts down. Doesn't want to talk about it. It makes me feel like crawling back into my emotional hole and covering the tracks. Today he admitted that when I tell him these things it feels like I'm criticizing him and he is being lectured. It felt really good to be able to tell him that I've been burying feelings for a long time and it was one of the key factors that has led to many poor choices I've made.

Ok, so you can tell him something is lacking and he is supposed to be open and responsive but if he gets angry you retreat and shut down and that is what lead you to cheat.

They key part missing from the paragraph you quoted seems to be the "a WS can help a BS heal".

What have you done to help him heal?

When you're telling him something is lacking are you speaking about the marriage?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Yes, I can. Standing by a river and saying I should just jump and stop the pain and storm off is not a suicide attempt. It's a I'm fucking beyond hurting and want it to stop.

You say you've lurked here a bit. Ever read general? Take a look at the number of posts where some form of that statement isn't in the title. I don't want to wake up. I would never do anything but just want this pain to stop. When I'm driving sometimes I think how easy it would be to just let the car roll down that cliff.

People in a burning house don't act like people at a picnic. I guess I'm not sure what you're expecting to see at this point. A calm discussion? Raging, name calling, scorched earth is not helpful to anyone. Is that what he's doing? Or is he going forward with times he's just really angry and doesn't always moderate his tone or choice of words?

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:44 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, July 26th (Friday)

I get what you're saying, and I guess I'll just chalk it up to you aren't there but I think in subsequent posts I've expressed the seriousness of it and that I do think his threats are real. He physically hurts himself. He has punched himself until he falls to the ground with a swollen cheek. I've watched him bang his head into the hood of a car so hard he almost knocked himself out. He has begged for car keys while beyond intoxicated so he can drive to tell his daughter goodbye. He tells me in anger that he means it this time, he's really going to do it.

I have no doubt that what he says is an expression of pain, I have no doubt that he says it to hurt me because I hurt him, I cannot say that I doubt he would ever do it because the day I stop taking it seriously EVERY TIME is probably the day I'll regret it. Without being there, please don't belittle it to something he said because he wishes the pain would go away and imply that he can't mean it because there isn't a weapon in his hand. You have no place to make that assessment. Coming to a message board and posting to a group of people in a similar situation is not the same as screaming at your spouse that your done and you're going to go end it.

AND my reason for sharing this is not to point fingers that this is his issue or that he is the problem. My reason for sharing is that I don't know how to deal with this behavior and I had hoped others would be able to share experiences of what worked for them when they felt like they were just spinning their wheels.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 11:58 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, July 26th (Friday)

Trying, I know I'm harping about details.

I have a co-worker I used to work with. She'd tell us how mean and abusive her husband was. I volunteer with DV victims and have experienced a fair bit myself. Was reaching out her giving her materials and contact information.

Company picnic. They were at the company picnic. She was talking and wasn't paying attention. Knocked her drink over. Got on him and the lady next to her. He responds "maybe looking at what you're doing would be helpful, babe" as he's mopping himself up. She tears up and looks at me. "See what I mean?". Um, what?

People have very different views of what is considered cruel and unkind. My ex would have "outbursts". The "c&$t" was a seasoning for those along with grabbing leaving perfect finger print bruises, pushing, pulling, throwing, punching (3 times...he'd hold on to those for special occasions). That's why I agreed with trying and stated I may no be the best poster.

I consider the choice to cheat a form of domestic violence. I certainly used it as such since I didn't stand a chance in the "ring". Plus I also gave my ex the choices that I was exercising. That's why no lies. How can an affair be revenge if it's secret?

When someone learns the person they trusted with their life can also be the person that deals them the worst blow they've ever felt it can result in some pretty dicey reactions.

I am a very strong proponent of boundaries and not tolerating behavior from yourself or others that is disrespectful.

Your post, while short on details, was key on his choices for staying being very important to you. His building his confidence. His view of you. That's where my focus went. These weren't asides. These were details in a sea of vague so took those to be the key issues for you.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, July 26th (Friday)

Ok, so you can tell him something is lacking and he is supposed to be open and responsive but if he gets angry you retreat and shut down and that is what lead you to cheat.
I don't say I do, I said its what I feel like doing because sometimes being open feels like it just makes him angry and defensive rather than initiation communication. I have, over the past couple years, been persistent in continuing to be open despite the less than desirable response I get from him.

What have you done to help him heal?
As mentioned I spent a lot of time working on me, I am open with him about all of his questions and he has the whole truth about the A. He doesn't really ask anything of me in terms of the A and overcoming it anymore but when he does, I do. Everything is transparent. I hide nothing. I have apologized, I am sympathetic, I am overly affectionate and I try to do something every day to let him know how much he means to me. I try to rebuild confidence and let him know I respect him by complimenting the things he does for me and for our family and even for himself. Its a long list.

When you're telling him something is lacking are you speaking about the marriage?

It can be anything. Asking how he's feeling or mentioning that he seems down is a reoccuring example. If I say "I've noticed you seem kind of off lately, anything I can do?" he takes it as a personal attack.

Recent example is that I told him I felt we had disconnected a bit and I wanted to talk about what we could do to improve that. He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

I try to be super gentle and I'm so cautious about wording but if there is any indication that we might try to work on something he thinks its his fault.

In this scenario, he doesn't get angry like in the outbursts I described, he just walks away/changes the subject/goes on pretending like nothing was said. I knew he was not communicating back and we weren't working on thigns as they come up but it was only today that he told me he feels attacked.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 12:15 PM, July 26th (Friday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, July 26th (Friday)

I get what you're saying, and I guess I'll just chalk it up to you aren't there but I think in subsequent posts I've expressed the seriousness of it and that I do think his threats are real. He physically hurts himself. He has punched himself until he falls to the ground with a swollen cheek. I've watched him bang his head into the hood of a car so hard he almost knocked himself out. He has begged for car keys while beyond intoxicated so he can drive to tell his daughter goodbye. He tells me in anger that he means it this time, he's really going to do it.

Ok, this is NOT ok. He's clearly needing intervention. We cross posted. I get why you didn't want to post details but it's not making him a monster. It's someone not capable of dealing with the pain he's in right now.

Drive to tell his daughter goodbye. Were you guys out?

So, alcohol needs to stop.

What triggers these? Is it drinking? Have there been any calm periods where you've been able to talk about the affair? Does he ask questions or just stuff and explode? What if you bring it up at a quite time to ask him if he has any questions and reassure him. Will he accept that?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, July 26th (Friday)

sometimes being open feels like it just makes him angry and defensive rather than initiation communication. I have, over the past couple years, been persistent in continuing to be open despite the less than desirable response I get from him.

What you wrote here reminds me of something I'm ashamed to admit I actually said a few weeks ago. "Well, if I can't honestly express my feelings to you, BH, then I'm just going to go back to my old MO of stuffing my feelings down and cultivating resentments. And that worked out really well before, didn't it?!" In other words: blaming BH because he didn't "respond well" to my bringing up my "open and honest feelings."

What I have just recently embraced is the concept of "compassionate communication," and taking responsibility for how my messages are received. And, how I receive the messages of others. Learning that skill, a.k.a. empathy, is my #1 healing priority right now. If my BH says he feels hurt, and gets defensive because his perception is that I'm criticizing and lecturing him--I need to recognize that his feelings are valid, even if that was not my intent. On the flip side, when I feel hurt because it seems like he's criticizing and lecturing me, then I'm going to lead with, "I think I'm hearing you say you're frustrated because I just did/said X. Did I hear that right?" In other words: give him the benefit of doubt, and an opportunity to explain himself, instead of jumping straight to: "You hurt my feelings."

He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

Do you feel like he's being loving enough, and trying hard enough?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1044 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, July 26th (Friday)

It can be anything. Asking how he's feeling or mentioning that he seems down is a reoccuring example. If I say "I've noticed you seem kind of off lately, anything I can do?" he takes it as a personal attack.

Recent example is that I told him I felt we had disconnected a bit and I wanted to talk about what we could do to improve that. He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

I can see both sides on both these. Being kind of "off" is pretty critical, actually. He's going to have days he's not chipper and I would bet high at 2.5 years in it's most likely affair related. Can you approach him and just hug him? Tell him you love him and can't believe you made the choices you made?

Same with disconnecting. I'm sure that after a good period it would be very normal to follow it with a period where one would disconnect. Just survival mode would dictate that, along with the internal fight of enjoying time spent with a spouse that also was responsible for your worst pain.

I can only imagine the fight one would engage in choosing to stay with someone that made our choices. I think that would anger me damn near as much as their choices. Almost like a self betrayal, at least at first.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, July 26th (Friday)

Drive to tell his daughter goodbye. Were you guys out?

Yes. This was another part of the explosion this weekend, but its not the first time he's said that.

What triggers these? Is it drinking? Have there been any calm periods where you've been able to talk about the affair? Does he ask questions or just stuff and explode? What if you bring it up at a quite time to ask him if he has any questions and reassure him. Will he accept that?

Thinking through it, I can't think of a time he's had a blowup that drinking wasn't involved. Sometimes out, sometimes at home but always there is drinking. But its definitely not every time he drinks either -- most of the time we can have a good time without issue. I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't need to stop.

We haven't talked about it in a long time. I've offered. He doesn't want to. He used to ask questions when it was new but not anymore.


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
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Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, July 26th (Friday)

What you wrote here reminds me of something I'm ashamed to admit I actually said a few weeks ago. "Well, if I can't honestly express my feelings to you, BH, then I'm just going to go back to my old MO of stuffing my feelings down and cultivating resentments. And that worked out really well before, didn't it?!" In other words: blaming BH because he didn't "respond well" to my bringing up my "open and honest feelings."
Wholeheartedly agree with the point you're making here and I was trying to word it carefully so as not to imply thats how I feel. I don't blame him for not allowing me to communicate, but I do recognize it as a shortcoming of mine and that I need to continue to do it no matter how hard it is or how much I feel like he's not listening or interested in working through it. Thank you for the example you shared.

Do you feel like he's being loving enough, and trying hard enough?
This is a really hard question for me to answer. Yes he is loving. Not always the way that I would like him to be but its obvious he tries and I can't begin to imagine what an internal struggle that is for him. As far as trying hard enough, I don't want to be the asshole that says no because like I said he shows me every day he loves me but we still have some really big obstacles to overcome and I wish he would open up to the idea of getting outside help becuase I think it would take us so much further than we can get on our own.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 12:38 PM, July 26th (Friday)]


Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
tryingandfailing
New Member
Member # 39912
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, July 26th (Friday)

I can see both sides on both these. Being kind of "off" is pretty critical, actually. He's going to have days he's not chipper and I would bet high at 2.5 years in it's most likely affair related. Can you approach him and just hug him? Tell him you love him and can't believe you made the choices you made?

Same with disconnecting. I'm sure that after a good period it would be very normal to follow it with a period where one would disconnect. Just survival mode would dictate that, along with the internal fight of enjoying time spent with a spouse that also was responsible for your worst pain.

I can only imagine the fight one would engage in choosing to stay with someone that made our choices. I think that would anger me damn near as much as their choices. Almost like a self betrayal, at least at first.

I see what you're saying. I guess we had reached the same conclusion but maybe my way of approaching it is wrong. I felt like telling him he seemed off or bothered and asking what I could do was a gentle way of letting him know my door is open and I'm concerned. I do realize how critical the delivery is so I will try to use more actions and reassurance next time rather than prying for details.

Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2013
Topic Posts: 74