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User Topic: Last Stand (very lengthy)
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 1:34 AM, July 31st (Wednesday)

New member, occasional reader....done being desperate and in limbo. I am at a turning point in my relationship with my wife. The story is long and spans years and I will try to sum it up efficiently.

(Note: After writing this post I came back here to apologize for it not being short or efficient...Sorry for it not being short or efficient...but keep reading! Yay!)

Background:

We have been married for over 8 years. We have two children, 3 and 6. She stays at home with the children and I work a 12 hour night shift 6am-6pm.

My wife comes from a different country (this was not a citizenship ploy, never even had those fears) where she was finishing university for her chosen career (she has wanted this career for as long as she can remember). When we met, she was finishing up a summer work trip here in the United States and had to return home to finish the last 2 years of her university. We fell in love almost instantly and a few months after she left, I quit my job and went to be with her there. I spent three months with her and we got married. I came back to the US and she stayed. For the next year, she traveled to be with me for summer and winter breaks. After graduating she moved here permanently, leaving behind her chosen career, friends and family to begin a life with me.

Our life was wonderful and our first son was born 2 years into our marriage. We were awesome together for the first year of his life.

My wife has SAD (seasonal affective disorder), we know this now, but didn't then, and she slowly became lifeless and depressed during a particularly dreary year (she only felt alive in the summertime). She became overly critical of me, getting upset at the smallest thing I did. This wore on me and I withdrew. Our marriage was beginning to show signs of stress that, in hindsight, could have been handled with therapy.

Anyways.....

Affairs:

Summer 2009 (seeing this written down....I had to pause for a few minutes to get over how long it has been).

Through some friends she met OM. He owned a restaurant and, funny enough, the restaurant was what she fell in love with. It had a beautiful outdoor seating area that was like a fairy garden and she does love her gardens. She would go there often at night to sit and sip a drink in the garden and meet people . I had been there with her a few times and it seemed safe and as I had trusted her without question, I had no worries. I also was pretty deep in my withdrawal from her that I really didn't care. Of course...beautiful woman....beautiful setting....late nights and constant exposure....she began to fall for the OM.

He is older than her (21 years...wow), successful business owner (and owner of her favorite retreat). He was also a major player and he pushed every one of her buttons, enticing her with the glittery night life he was a part of. She fell for it, hook, line and sinker. To this day she describes those months as if she was mesmerized (but she does take full responsibility for what occurred).

I digress. She came to me shortly after she began having feelings for him and actually told me she thought she may be falling in love with him. My reaction was less than.... well here is pretty much the conversation.

Her: I think I'm falling for OM.

Me: What?

Her: Yeah, falling.

Me: I don't think you should see him anymore....or whatever.

Her: I can handle it, don't worry, it'll go away.

Me: K.

And that was it. Instead of rushing to the guys door, telling him to keep away from my wife, standing up for her (and me!), I turned a blind eye. She gave me an opportunity to stop her and I was in a place where I didn't care. I know I let her down and I took responsibility for that part of it later.

Pardon my use of the word, but I was a pussycat and proceeded to remain one for the next 4 years.

I discovered the actual PA only a month or so after that (09/05/09 DD#1). She fully admitted it and we decided to reconcile. Seriously, I wish I had put any amount of thought into doing a little bit of frickin' research on how to reconcile. But I didn't(neither of us did anything right, no MC, no NC, for someone who researches every detail before purchasing a product, I decided to wing it...go me). I cared but was lost in this inner turmoil. She insisted she needed the restaurant garden in her life and.....wait, here you go:

Her: I love you and want to be with you...BUT I need to keep going to the garden and hanging out with people.

Me: But you'll be around OM.

Her: Yeah...but....garden.

Me: Whatev's. Just pick me, K?

Her: K.

I was not really so ambivalent but, yes, I let her hash out her feelings for the two of us. I remained as strong as I could for her, regaining some of my manhood, but still faltering occasionally. My pestering and his advances drove her to a very dark depression and suicide (attempted...yes). Twice. Once while pregnant with #2 (just an exploratory wrist cutting, barely drew blood). Oh yeah, #2 was conceived late spring 2009, we didn't find out till midsummer and...yes...he's mine, looks just like me and doesn't share the genetic color variation of OM.

This continued until December 2010 when she tried to take her life for a second time. At that point, reality smacked me upside the head. I arranged for her to go to IC and her transformation over the next few months was miraculous. During her therapy I was strong and supportive and she has often thanked me for helping her through the darkest time of her life. She went from this dead thing wandering around the house to the bright fairy I had always known.

She chose me (I've seen her therapy records) and began to see OM for the scumbag he was. She actually began to feel pity for him because he became obsessed with her. He would follow her around whenever he saw her. This Lothario actually cried...wait skipping ahead.

My turn. After years of trying to prop her up, and being strong emotionally for her, I cracked. I became the zombie. So I entered IC. My therapist helped me through the worst and her remorse for the affair and her truthfulness about the OM from there on helped me come out. This recovery fell apart when I came home from work one morning and she wasn't there. I know she liked this spot at the beach and drove there. Imagine my surprise when I see OM's car parked next to hers. I stormed onto the beach and saw them hugging.

(Disclaimer: it has been pointed out to me by another member that the following section makes it seem as though I am making light of violence against my wife. I assure you this is not the case. I do not condone violence and I am truly sorry for the actions I took against her that day. This has been addressed with her and in IC and MC.)

He didn't see me coming and my rage put him on the ground (actually it was a flailing wild punch, but it did connect a bit and he did fall down! Yay!) and then he ran away. Who da man now! Yeah....this guy. In my anger I slapped her, put my hands around her neck and pushed her to the sand, while saying some very not nice things. This, I am not proud of. Side note, I am not a violent person, I never touched her before this moment and have never done it since. Although I did jokingly tell her I would punch her when she wouldn't stop poking me and she didn't and I punched her leg. Which hurt for two days. She could barely walk. Seriously, I couldn't charlie horse worth a damn in grade school but now, when I'm not trying, I push a knuckle through her muscle. I digress...

I left her there on the beach and drove home. Her phone GPS was enabled and I followed her throughout the day. She walked....and walked....and...seriously, no lie, she walked along the beach through 4 towns over the course of 15 hours, the last two hours in a raging thunderstorm. I tried calling but she wouldn't pick up. She eventually responded and I went to get her.

She was broken, not because she was “caught” but because she thought she lost me. She explained and I verified. He followed her to the beach from a friends party that evening. She asked him to leave and he started blubbering and crying (there it is!) and professing his love and she told him that she was with me and that was that. She was consoling him, not making out with him. She never spoke with him, texted, had any contact with him again. I verified. Often.

From this point forward OM no longer refers to the guy above.

Affair #2 (one strung into the other....I consider them in my head a single long stupid event).

This is now say December 2011.

Life with me was hard for the next few months but she tried. And she was slowly becoming my wife again. Beginning to show affection, reaching out. I was dealing with a lot of conflicting emotions and lingering depression. IC took it away but we never did MC (huge mistake).

She met a guy who helped her with a drawing for a project she wanted to propose to the town we live in. Artist type. Business owner (seriously with the f'ing business owners). Seriously, he's a nice guy. (He actually helped me with their first separation and admitted to me what they did was wrong and, get this, he showed me remorse. Yeah, wierd. Ahead of myself...) I met him, hung out a few times. They began a friendship that started off innocent. I was still on alert and trust wasn't fully rebuilt and I monitored. Phone records, I had access to texts, deleted or not, location. And slowly I watched their relationship progress into an emotional affair. From the end of February to mid summer when it heated up.

And this time I spoke out right away. But she blew me off with the usual EA rug sweeping. And as their relationship progressed ours regressed. We had never reconnected and it was easier for her to fall into this, I'm not condoning it, I just get it. She pulled away from me emotionally I got more and more paranoid, more and more insistent she end it. But she placated me with “just friends” and even though I knew what was happening I pussycatted out again. Until the end of November 2012 when I found deleted texts about I can feel your breath and I want to feel you and well, yeah....

I freaked out and demanded she end it and she's all...

Her: But he's just a friend and it doesn't mean anything, and those words for us is only like writing poetry and..and he's my only real friend and I gave up so much for you to come here, my career and my friends and my family and you want me to get rid of my only friend....cry cry cry.

Me: Yeah, get rid of him.

Her: sniffle.

Me: buh-bye to him!

Her: K.

It took her a few weeks to break it off but she did. And I monitored and I verified and (btw she's not too bright in the tech department so no hidden phones or anything) watched and she joined back in our relationship although she wouldn't show me much affection and would not admit to any wrongdoing or show any remorse. She'd barely participate in MC but I gave her time.

And then in April 2013 she sent him a message. And then a few weeks later he sent her one. Brief converstations. Nothing interesting. And since it was sporadic I didn't protest too loudly. And we talked and she has begun to show me more and more affection, slowly, I can actually feel the love from her. But still no admission, still no remorse. But I'm still cautious and still wary. And then in May she fired the text machine back up and I immediately stepped in.

Now, understand, I'm a sucker for this girl. She does all the things WS say, you'd let me have a friend if you understood me, I can't believe YOU'd act like this. And I fell for it. But only briefly (okay two months but after 4 years, it's brief).

07/21/13 : 10 days ago I told her I want him out of our life and that she needs to own up to what she's done. It got late with no resolution so we postponed the end of the conversation.

07/22/13 - 07/26/13 : I had the week off from work. We had a wonderful week together and with the children. Went to water parks, the beach, six flags. There was just the 4 of us and we had a blast. I didn't want to talk.

07/27/13 : I'm in a funk all day and she's ignoring it. As I'm leaving for work she starts acting pissy because I'm upset. I tell her I'm upset because we have unfinished business. We need to finish talking but now is not the time. Hi-ho! Hi-ho! It's off to work I go....

07/28/13 : While I'm at work I see she has taken a trip to where he works nights tending a bar. Of course this bar has a beautiful garden (f'ing hate gardens now). She turned her phone off so I didn't find this out till she was leaving well after the bar's closing time. Watching her drive she stops for a bit, starts up again. By now I know she stopped to text him. With the delay in text and call usage hitting the website, I can't confirm, but I know. She starts driving again and I watch her pull into the town where he lives. Down towards his house. She parks in the lot across from his house. The lot has beach access. I watch her phone wander onto the beach.

I head to the office, emergency at home, gotta go. Where she is now is over an hour away from me. By the time I get near our house, still a ˝ hour from where she was, I see she's left and is heading home. I wait for her. 2:00am she pulls in.

Her: What are you doing home? Is everything okay?
Me: I can't take this any more, let's go somewhere and talk.
Her: I can barely stay awake, I have to sleep.
Me: So be it....(meow)

I get in the car and drive to the beach where she just was. Smokes: check, Flashlight: check, Channeling Native American Indian tracker: f'ing check. I stalk out onto the beach and honestly, seriously, 100% I know they're her footsteps, pick up her trail. Comparing the locations where I saw her GPS I'm lead right to where she sat on the beach and there is only her footsteps going there and back. The mark where she put down her purse. The ring where she put her juice bottle. At least I know she wasn't with him. I checked her texts that morning and confirmed he didn't have time to see her and also wouldn't spend time with her at the bar. Left her a note telling her to wake me up when she gets up because we are talking.

07/29/13 : She wakes me up. We talk. I can't have him in our life, you won't own up to what you did, it will just happen again. Him or Me, D I V O R C E (it rhymes if you spell out divorce!). Same story. She listens, I think it may be sinking in. She needs time to gather her thoughts. Fine, two days, we talk. Downloaded a copy of Not “Just Friends” onto the ipad and asked her to read at least Part I.

07/30/13 : She tried to see him because she is dealing with some other drama that I wasn't really receptive to although she did try to talk to me about it. From her text messages, I got that he stood her up, no show.

Tonight, 07/31/13, after we put the kids to bed we are having the last conversation about this OM that we will have with him in our life. I plan on taking her to the beach where we had our first conversation. Where we fell in love. I think it's a fitting place to have what is potentially our last conversation. After tonight, either he is gone.....or I am.

I am SO VERY SORRY this is like a short novel but once I started writing I couldn't stop and it was therapeutic.

I realize I've been dealing with a lot for 4 years. But I also realize that neither of us dealt with it correctly or with any knowledge of how to reconcile. We punched around in the dark and hit a couple times but missed a whole lot.

I hope you can tell from my writing but I've become very centered. I'm not angry. I'm not upset, I'm not depressed, I'm just done. Either she wakes up or I walk out. And in case anyone feels like bringing this up, It doesn't matter if the EA went PA (I'm on the fence over whether I think it did, there just isn't any real evidence), the damage is done, the admission of a PA wouldn't make me feel any different, just answer a question.

Thank you for reading this. Thoughts? Advice? See you soon.

TR


PS: In case anyone was wondering, my MIL lives with us so the kids are being watched while she gallivants around.

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 5:41 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
Tearsoflove
Member
Member # 8271
Default  Posted: 3:49 AM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I read your post. I don't have a lot of advice since you've already started "Not Just Friends" and you've finally learned to draw your line in the sand- perhaps literally. I hope the conversation goes well and she makes the right decision.

That said, she is now on her second affair which indicates that her coping mechanisms for low points in your marriage suck. She needs serious work on her boundaries and probably to be much less indulged. There are a lot of excuses for her behavior but none of them sound like legitimate reasons. And if she did it again, IC didn't really help her get it the first time.

I hope the book will help her understand and set better boundaries. If not, you'll be in this same boat the next time your marriage is in a low point or she doesn't get enough sunlight.


"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ~Homer Simpson


Posts: 4029 | Registered: Sep 2005
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 4:36 AM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Thank you Tears.

She is definitely over indulged. But I'm growing a set, slowly. Going from soft innocent ubertrusting me pre-affairs to this has been a journey. Pain and depression sucks. Kinda done with it.

I would find it akin to having to watch Tom Cruise movies over and over and over again (My apologies to TC fans here at SI!).

I think back to one of the more recent moments where she was crying about me wanting her to give up her only friend (she has others, but he's her 'only' friend) and I told her that if she hadn't f'd up and crossed boundaries she could still have him as a friend. New boundaries are coming if all works out.

I just watched the sun rise (I work on the coast). It was beautiful. I'm hoping this is the beginning of a wonderful day.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Midday update.

She's been wonderful today but it could be because of the impending conversation.

Signs that don't bode well:

She hasn't tried to read Not "Just Friends". Still on the first page on the ipad where I left it.

She texted OM a picture of beans from her garden, so she's still thinking of him.

Tick tock.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I am wishing clarity, strength, and calmness for you today. Best of luck.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4705 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
Tired05
Member
Member # 39609
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I read the whole thing and you seem, like you said, very level headed. You've reached the point where you value yourself and have basic standards for your no matter how tough the times are. It seems that even if she chooses him, you know you will be just fine. I hope everything works out for you in the best way possible, which ever way it happens to be. Good luck!


Together 6 yrs. M 4 yrs. DD born 3/1/2013.
Me: BS -- Him: 1 EA/PA (6mos), PA (MW), and 6 ONS...Been at it for almost 5 yrs. *Still slave to TT* 1st DDay- 11/24/2012,
.....OC due in August.....

Posts: 122 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: United States
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Thank you Skan and Tired, your words mean a lot.

Just found out she was trying to meet with him today for coffee but he blew her off again.

Also just watched her look up movie times for later as though she is trying to come up with something for us to do rather than talk.

I see this as an attempt to deflect the coming storm. She has a choice to make and it's not something she likes doing. Make sense?

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
myperfectlife
Member
Member # 39801
Default  Posted: 4:17 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

That said, she is now on her second affair which indicates that her coping mechanisms for low points in your marriage suck.

^^^ This.
And my STBXWH's first affair was an EA and I begged him to do counseling, he refused. 5 years later, PA.
He can't deal with his own stress, so how can he deal with the stress of making a marriage work?
Think about this.
And I wish you luck...no one wants to be here.


I cannot be responsible for another's personal growth.
DDay#1 of a "cheatillion" 4/1/13
Divorce final 11/04/13

Posts: 452 | Registered: Jul 2013
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

TR - I read your entire post and it seems as though you are going into tonight eyes wide open. Strength to you tonight and good luck.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 199 | Registered: Feb 2013
Markone
Member
Member # 30291
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I may be pointing out the obvious, but I bet you dollars to donuts, she'll say "you".

The question then is will her actions line up with that?

One suggestion may be to take some of that decision and put it back in your hands - File for D, and tell her she has however long it takes where you live to prove by actions she is choosing you. The onus then becomes on her - there are real consequences if she says she chooses you but continues with OM. Plus, you'd be closer to the exit.

[This message edited by Markone at 4:24 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


DD 11/28/10
Me (BH)
Her (WS)
Separated and filed (7/13)

Posts: 412 | Registered: Dec 2010
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Fact is that she has had enough time to get onboard with 'R' and so far has done a piss poor job of it.

Depending on the skill of her IC she has also may have been given the tools to develop relationships that are marriage friendly. She hasn't been able to put that into practice either.

That said, some ICs are not as well training on the subject of infidelity/boundaries as they should be. But that doesn't mitigate her responsibility for her own choices.

Having young children can be isolating, I have been there. But there are healthy ways to expand your friendships and not so healthy.

IMO, I think that not much good can come from hanging out in a restaurant/bar to 'meet people'. No matter how pretty the garden.

How many people with great boundaries are meeting 'friends' in that environment? Take away the garden and it is a women seeking company while drinking.

With young kids it was so easy to meet mom's of kids in the same age group as mine. At church, at preschool, at the park, in our neighborhood, at the library...? Does she make an effort to build relationships with women?

She texted OM a picture of beans from her garden, so she's still thinking of him.

This would be contact and it needs to stop. Today. She can block his number. And she needs to.

She doesn't 'get it'. She may be lonely, but how much effort is she putting into developing healthy friendships? If she loves gardening, then find a club or a volunteer opportunity.

Why does she seek out situations and friendships that feed attention and validation on an intimate level that should be reserved for her spouse?

She continues because cake tastes good. And until she faces some consequences she will keep visiting the bakery. That is what entitled people do.


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3152 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Sorry I don't have time to respond individually but I will. Thank you all so much for your input.

She's trying to wiggle out of tonight.

Her (sitting on the beach just now): My head is so foggy (lol -ed).

Me: get your head straight.

Her: Why?

Me: (sigh) We have a date tonight, remember?

Her: oh.

Me: you aren't taking this seriously. This is very serious.

Her: I know but two days isn't enough time to think (lol -ed) about something so serious.

Me: .......you've had way more than two days to think about this babe. But now isn't the time. Lets have a good time. We'll talk later tonight.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

For some silly reason I believed my FWH made his choice on a beautiful day in April, 1979. I would imagine you thought your WW made her choice 8 years ago.

I wouldn't be one to wait for my WS to make a choice after d-day. I believe you have waited long enough. Maybe it is time for you to make a choice and stop giving your WS a chance to make one.

I agree that she is a cake eater and that you need to make the right choices for you.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9531 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Your wife is married. She's behaving like a mopey teenager. I'm not dismissing S.A.D. I have a good friend that has this. They bought lights and plan things together that get them out and help cope with this. It isn't sit around tea gardens meeting people. In fact, people with S.A.D. don't feel like doing shit. They become less social, not more. I used to have to damn near use a crow bar to get her out of the house even to go shopping...shopping, ffs!!!! At Nordstoms, no less.

I'd let her perform her own cranial extraction with no help from me. Seriously. Two days isn't enough time to collect herself for a discussion? Does she operate heavy machinery? God, I certainly hope not. Taxis and buses. No car keys for her.

I'm not making light of this. Just have a hard time believing the shit some people do and I'm a wayward. You don't have to accept this and absolutely shouldn't. It's not pull back to see if she gets it. It's pull back to see if you get it. No custodial work on her mess. Taking your own time to gather your thoughts. Long walks on the beach as you visualize your life without someone fucking yours over. 

I wouldn't listen to a damn word out of her mouth. It doesn't matter. Stupid isn't entitled to an audience even if it's a spouse. 

Redrocks post is great.

You don't have to make any decisions right now. It sometimes helps immensely to just solidify some realistic options. The more choices you can make the more control you can regain and maintain.

Good luck. This site is amazing.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
painpaingoaway
Member
Member # 27196
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Maybe it is time for you to make a choice and stop giving your WS a chance to make one.

Ditto.

We have two children, 3 and 6. She stays at home with the children and I work a 12 hour night shift 6am-6pm.
No, she doesn't stay home with the children. It sounds like your MIL does while your wife goes galavanting around town picking up men. That's what it is. She makes it sound rather romantic with the whole 'beautiful garden' scene, but, come on, lets call a spade a spade, and take off the rose colored glasses...she sounds like a bored spoiled brat.

Let me tell you something, any woman on this site can tell you that being a mom to 2 kids the age of yours is a FULL TIME JOB if she is doing what she is supposed to be doing. Shit, when my kids were that age, I barely had time to breathe much less galavant around town looking at beautiful gardens. (BTW, I adore gardens, but I planted my own, taught my children how, ate fresh produce, canned, and pickled and cooked healthy nourishing meals every single night). I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but trying to get you to realize that your wife is a self-absorbed woman that appears to be USING you.

You are right to give her an ultimatum, and I hope things go well tonight, but are you ready to BACK up your ultimatum? Because if you are not, it is pointless, and she will only continue with her nonsense, and you will have lost all respect with her.

Shock and awe my friend, shock and awe are the only weapons you have now. Most of us here on SI will tell you that you must be willing to lose the marriage to fix it. Are you truly ready to walk?

[This message edited by painpaingoaway at 7:38 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


me BS female 56/him WS 59
Married 33 years
D-day July 09/he gave me his slut's STD
Watch my movie: "My wayward husband's adventures in STD land":
Episode 1: youtu.be/9Jv0-d_CdYc
Episode 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tz822H82Gk

Posts: 7052 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Coastal South
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Again, sorry not much time for everyone. I will tomorrow night.

You are right to give her an ultimatum, and I hope things go well tonight, but are you ready to BACK up your ultimatum? Because if you are not, it is pointless, and she will only continue with her nonsense, and you will have lost all respect with her.

Shock and awe my friend, shock and awe are the only weapons you have now. Most of us here on SI will tell you that you must be willing to lose the marriage to fix it. Are you truly ready to walk?

PPGA,

Simply. Yes. I am. This will end one way or another tonight. Putting boys to bed, heading out soon.


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
noescape
Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

TR, read your entire story, you write well. I'm sorry you're here. You DO realise you're being used by an entitled and selfish person? Right? You sound like you had conflict avoidance issues, they may still surface which is why she still carries on doing what she does. UO and red and ppga and SMS have all given great advise, internalise as much as you can. Don't allow her to manipulate you with insincere words tonight. Best wishes to you.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

Thank you all again.

Noescape,

Thank you for the writing compliment

Yes, I too have come to realize that I had some serious conflict avoidance issues. That time is past. I'm committed to a full access R or a D. Either way I'll be happy in different ways. Her floundering has helped me into a true 180.

I am almost beyond most of the stages of discovery. I need her to admit and give sincere remorse. She gets one shot at NC. It's on to rebuilding boundaries and trust.

Time to take the reins.

Boys asleep, leaving soon. I feel that she realizes that I'm serious this time and she fears what is coming.

Will post more after if I can.

Wish me......whatever you wish to wish me!

TR - centered, calm, a feeling of serenity.

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 9:04 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
brkn_heartd
Member
Member # 30396
Default  Posted: 11:00 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I hope it goes well. Given the past for both of you to be allowed time to "think" I would believe she is expecting that time again. From the behavior you described today, it sounds like she is bargaining for it.

I have sent you good thoughts for tonight.


Me-51 BS
Him 58-WS
Married 31 yrs, together 34
Affair Aug-Dec 09
official D-12/14/09
broke NC 1/31/10
second D 3/19/10

Posts: 1565 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Northwesten US
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)

I discussed calmly and peacefully, she argued and blamed. She wouldn't agree to with anything I said. so I told her I'd start on the sep agreement and D papers and have them to her asap. I'll get into the details later but now I have a dilemma.

We are still here at the beach. She won't leave me. She asked me to come back home with her, I told her I wanted to stay and I'd walk (it's not that far). She laid down on the blanket next to me and is still there.

What to do?

TR

PS: added with edit. I'm not trying to manipulate her, I'm comfortable with the outcome. I just don't know what to do.

PPS : I just put the keys to the car in her purse and told her they were there if she wanted to go, I was going for a walk. And then....I walked away.

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 11:46 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 12:41 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

Okay so....

Heard coyotes started howling from her direction while walking. Srsly.

I got back to her and said let's get you home. I mean I dislike her severely right now but not enough to let her get eaten by coyotes.

Anyways, home now. Will be sleeping in spare bed. Talk more to you all tonight.

Hooooowwwwwwwwwwwwllllllll.....,TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
noescape
Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 12:56 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

coyotes... thats foreboding. sorry it went south.

anyway, get ready for some manipulation starting NOW (that whole blanket thing was just the start).

She may use sex, plead her love, try and convince you otherwise. Remember, its her ACTIONs not her WORDs you should pay attention to. Demand NC, transparency, full access, truth, end of the A's and all inappropriate friendships, no more gallivanting about etc.. etc.. you know what I mean; IC etc.. don't expose her to SI yet, she may use information from here against you. You may use the books (recommended in the healing library) or other resources if she asks for guidance/help. just not SI yet. You shouldn't put up with any more abuse nor manipulation. If she's not willing to give up AP or her A lifestyle, I guess you're pretty firm on filing and good on you.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
painpaingoaway
Member
Member # 27196
Default  Posted: 5:12 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

Demand NC, transparency, full access, truth, end of the A's and all inappropriate friendships, no more gallivanting about etc.. etc.

If I have read things correctly, he's already done all that. He titled his post 'The Last Stand'. This is it. There can be no more chances. She laid down beside him and I'm sure fully expected this to just blow over as it has in the past.

See a lawyer! Find out what your rights are, and file for D. Nothing says 'I mean business' like filing for D.

If a miracle occurs and she makes the necessary changes, he can always stop the process, but I'm afraid if he doesn't file now, things will NEVER change and he is trapped in a never ending cycle of manipulation.

I'm so sorry temporalreset, I know you are in agony, and I'm afraid things may get much much worse before they get better whether you R or D. But I think the only real power you have here is to back up your words and file for D.

Also read up on borderline personality disorder. Your wife resembles some of those symptoms.

Stay strong,

PPGA


me BS female 56/him WS 59
Married 33 years
D-day July 09/he gave me his slut's STD
Watch my movie: "My wayward husband's adventures in STD land":
Episode 1: youtu.be/9Jv0-d_CdYc
Episode 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tz822H82Gk

Posts: 7052 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Coastal South
OK now
Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

Your wife is deeply and passionately in love with......her marriage. She'll do anything to keep that and the family, [including MIL], intact.
You she has no strong feelings about, other than resentment.

Your decision; to remain married while she screws around, [there will be other OM's in her search for deeper emotional fulfillment], or move on.

I think 4 years is enough; time to pull the plug.


Posts: 1704 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

Sending strength for whatever direction you choose.

Hugs too,

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5012 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
ladies_first
Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

I told her I'd start on the sep agreement and D papers and have them to her asap.

You need to follow through on this. Seriously.

Divorce can be stopped at any point along the way. But you are 4 years into Affair-land and she shows no indication, none, of changing her affair behavior.

We have two children, 3 and 6. She stays at home with the children and I work a 12 hour night shift 6am-6pm.
I won't discount her SAD, because I deal with a mild case. Speaking bluntly, sounds like your wife is bored. (*You* are not boring.) And she needs to get motivated. Find a job. Find an IC. Find some direction in her life.

I'm not saying your M is over, but right now it's a joke. You both deserve better.

Seriously. File the D papers.

Then look to see how her actions match her words.


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, August 1st (Thursday)

My reading is that your W lacks boundaries, and probably the only way for her to build them is some serious IC with building boundaries as her goal. That's the only way I see for her to stop betraying herself and whoever she's partnered with.

I also sense that you'd prefer R to D. Is that correct? If so, I encourage you to lay out your requirements for R ASAP, even while you file.

If you both know what your requirements are, you can combat manipulation more easily. That is, you can compare whatever she says or does to the requirements and discount the crap.

Just an idea - since you've been lurking, I imagine you know you're under no obligation to take any advice at all.

Also, don't think of what you're doing as growing a set of balls. Being betrayed is awful, and nothing in life prepares us for handling it. You tried loving her back into the M in '09-'10, and that's an intuitively correct approach. It didn't work. Now you're trying out tactics that are new to you and non-intuitive. Instead of beating yourself up for past actions, celebrate the fact that you've found new ones and are open to trying them out.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9979 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Thank you all!

I'm seeing everyone's replies I just don't have time to write much until I get to work tonight.

Thanks for the support. Will see you all later.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Here''''s something for you to read, If You Love Them, Divorce Them, http://www.survivinginfideltiy.com/forums.asp?tid469167 I hope I copied that correctly as I am copying from one machine to another. I hope it''''s of some help to you.

Edited to say, cayotes have only attacked and killed one person in recorded history 1900 to now. So next time, keep walking.

[This message edited by Skan at 2:29 PM, August 1st, 2013 (Thursday)]


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4705 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
StrongerOne
Member
Member # 36915
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Just an observation on one piece of your story. I suspect that you are using humor or jokiness as a way to deal with your pain. But I am disturbed that you are joking about strangling your wife in anger, seriously bruising her leg, etc. WTF, man, it's not funny -- I hope this is something you are working on in IC.

FWIW, I think you are right to D you WW. She's a mess and you are getting good advice about that.


DDay Feb 2011.
In R.

Posts: 852 | Registered: Sep 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Will be getting to last night and today soon, but this is one I had to respond to right away

But I am disturbed that you are joking about strangling your wife in anger, seriously bruising her leg, etc. WTF, man, it's not funny -- I hope this is something you are working on in IC.

StrongerOne,

I understand how you could get this feeling from what I wrote. Please believe me that the 'strangling' on the beach is something I am not proud of or making light of. I had hoped I made that obvious in my original post. I do not condone violence against anyone whatsoever. Fact, I had never been in a violent confrontation in my entire life up until that point and have not been since. It has been discussed with my IC the day after it happened and we both understand it was a one time event.

As for the leg thing, sorry, I was trying to bring the tone back up a little bit by sharing a story of a playful incident gone wrong and I would ask that you go back and re-read those sections of my post with this explanation in mind.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

StrongerOne and other members. I have added a disclaimer to my initial post before the section describing my violent actions. I hope this will clarify my intentions and my remorse for those events.

TR

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 5:44 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:35 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Okay, here goes.

07/31/13

Woke up that afternoon (work nights, remember?) just as she came home from grocery shopping with her mother and picking the boys up from camp.

Made plans to go to a nice beach nearby around 5:00pm.

Had a lot of fun with the boys, we ran into a couple who we hadn't seen in a while whose daughter is the same age as our oldest. Chatted for a while, had a great time. Sun was 45 min from setting, beautiful sky, would post a pic of it if I could post pictures. She asked me to hold her while we talked with the other couple.

We eventually got everyone in the car and I asked if she wanted to come with me back to the beach to watch the sun actually set. We sat and she cuddled with me and as the sun was setting she kissed me very passionately. Now I realize that she was probably trying to manipulate me to show she can be affectionate knowing what was coming. I enjoyed it, enjoyed what was to potentially be our last sunset together but it did not sway me from my path.

We got home, put the boys to bed and (I stated in earlier brief update posts, she tried to wiggle out of going) collected her into the car to head to the beach where we first met.

Parked, walked to the beach, nearly the spot where we sat our first night together.

Basic conversation:

Me: So?

Her: I just want to get this out there, thank you for doing this 10 days after my birthday....

M: Yeah, uh, sure?

H: So nothing has changed since we last talked about this, you don't want to listen and see how nice I've made your life, how affectionate I've become, all the things I do for you and the boys....

M: Umm, as I've said, several, several, several times....yes I have, but you still want to pretend you did nothing wrong. You won't even admit you had an EA and texted sexual messages to OM. Now you want me to be okay with you still seeing him.

H: Yes. I understand what I did was wrong and it won't happen again! And see, I'm trying to make your life so nice now, but I can't live without my friend.

M: Yes it will happen again. Sorry, need this cancer out of my life.

H: (getting angrier) You know you should divorce me, I don't think I want to be married anymore to a man who can't let me be who I am. You're trying to control me and don't want me to have friends.

M: No, I don't want you to have a friend that you share dreams of moving away to the south of France with to raise goats and share sexual texts...

H: (interrupting me) So now I'm not supposed to have dreams?!?!? (much angrier) Fine, you write me up a list of dreams I'm allowed to have!!!!

M: (I'm now trying really hard not to laugh, seriously) Yeah, I'm not trying to restrict your dreams, just you having them WITH ANOTHER MAN. You can't go about sharing yourself like this with another man, doing the things you did, taking affection and intimacy away from me and giving it to someone else!

H: Who says? (Yes, she said this. Those exact words. This conversation was turning into a dark comedy)

M: Umm, your vows? Morality? Common sense? Common decency?.....Shall I go on?

H: Something, blah, something something, blah.....

M: (I cut her off) You shared yourself with another man! Emotionally, intimately and romantically!

H: I'm done, you interrupt me...I have to listen to you but you don't have to listen to me?!?!?!

M: I'll write up the separation and divorce papers as soon as I can and get them to you.

And the conversation ended there. I sat where I was, so did she, we didn't say anything. I eventually got up and walked down to the water. If you've never seen bio-luminescent algae you should put it on your bucket list. There happened to be a bloom right there where I was. As I kicked the water, these little shooting stars followed my wake wherever the water was disturbed. 100X more entertaining than fireflies and I luuuuuv fireflies.

She came to where I was after a minute. We played with the algae together but I kept my distance from her. She made small talk. I responded calmly and confidently, but very tersely. I would step away and she would move to where I was.

She said she knew I wanted to stay there. I told her she could take the car and go, that I'd walk. She didn't respond but didn't leave. A little while later she asked me to come home with her. I clarified my position of me wanting to stay and that she could go. She asked me to come home again. I told her I was staying and she walked away. Now, I realized I had the keys to the car in my pocket and I walked back to the blanket. I tried to hand her the car keys but she said she was staying. That's when she lay down on the blanket. I already covered the coyotes in a previous post so briefly I eventually came back to the blanket and took her home.

We got home and after a bit she headed into our room and got in bed, leaving the door open. As I came out of the bathroom I saw her in there and very quickly walked up, said good night and shut the door. I went to sleep in the spare bed we have in the boys room.

Next morning I get up and MIL has taken the boys to the lake leaving just her and I.

Okay, information I haven't provided till now because it wasn't pertinent. We have a community house. We have visitors from time to time that come and stay, male/female, most of them are young students who we've met over the years (visiting from Russia). Please don't read anything into this (like her having a harem there), these are all really good kids and they respect our relationship and the rules of the house. Currently have two boys, age 21 staying until the end of September.

Anyways. I went outside and sat down to have a smoke. She follows me outside and starts small talk. Then she says....

H: I know it would be hard, but I think you should sleep with me in our bed.

M: K, why?

H: Because it raises too many questions and it would be difficult to explain to everyone.

M: Umm, that's our marriage bed and we don't have a marriage anymore, I really wouldn't be comfortable staying there. Plus, they're going to have to be told eventually.

H: …..(she got sad? Upset slightly? I couldn't label the emotion correctly)

M: I'll think about it. (Yes a moment of backtracking on my part, but I've already realized it was an attempt to manipulate me and I will continue sleeping in the spare bed)

And....well....that's it.

That's where we are. Tonight I am writing up the separation agreement and divorce papers and should be able to give them to her tomorrow or Saturday to review and discuss.

I think I walked into work today for the first time in a year with my head held high. I was happy and talking to people, shaking hands....euphoric. Think some people actually noticed the difference from a couple looks I got.

TR - On to respond to your myriad of posts from last night into today.

PS: I have had so many hindsight moments today where I came up with the perfect thing to say in response to things she said on the beach last night. Ooooooo I hate that so much!

PPS: Worst part is I could short-circuit this whole mess by talking to the OM. Honestly, I know he'd listen and back off. But I don't want to take her toy away....I want her to realize she shouldn't be playing with it in the first place.


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Depending on the skill of her IC she has also may have been given the tools to develop relationships that are marriage friendly. She hasn't been able to put that into practice either.

Redrock,

She hasn't done IC since a bit after she chose me after A1. Speaking of no boundaries, she has actually become the occasional friend with her IC. They met a few times for coffee, thereby rendering him useless as her IC in the future. (Their meeting were innocent, he has an interest in her home country and she was showing him pics from her trip there with the boys) I've seen their texts, he asks about me and the boys and they've only met a couple times over 2 years. But still, boundary crossed, damage done.

Having young children can be isolating, I have been there. But there are healthy ways to expand your friendships and not so healthy.

IMO, I think that not much good can come from hanging out in a restaurant/bar to 'meet people'. No matter how pretty the garden.
How many people with great boundaries are meeting 'friends' in that environment? Take away the garden and it is a women seeking company while drinking.

Redrock,

Yes, her life is isolating, and early on we did nothing about it. After A1 I tried to get her to: get a job, pick up a hobby, make new healthy friends but she's lazy, doesn't know where to start, doesn't have confidence in herself.

I diverge from your opinion on the going out to bars. I'm not one to want to restrict where she goes. Face it, threats are everywhere, from the playground to social/hobby groups to the library. She didn't meet A2 OM in a bar, she met him by walking into his business. Threats are everywhere and anywhere. What she needs is a reset on her world view of fidelity and the boundaries that come with it.

No, she doesn't stay home with the children. It sounds like your MIL does while your wife goes galavanting around town picking up men. That's what it is. She makes it sound rather romantic with the whole 'beautiful garden' scene, but, come on, lets call a spade a spade, and take off the rose colored glasses...she sounds like a bored spoiled brat.
Let me tell you something, any woman on this site can tell you that being a mom to 2 kids the age of yours is a FULL TIME JOB if she is doing what she is supposed to be doing. Shit, when my kids were that age, I barely had time to breathe much less galavant around town looking at beautiful gardens. (BTW, I adore gardens, but I planted my own, taught my children how, ate fresh produce, canned, and pickled and cooked healthy nourishing meals every single night). I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but trying to get you to realize that your wife is a self-absorbed woman that appears to be USING you.

PPGA,

I know what it looks like from the very brief description of what I posted, however you are wrong with this. She does take care of our children, very well in fact. She has turned our home into a virtual oasis with everything from beautiful flowers to tons of different edible things. My children are obsessed with the garden and she has exposed them to it since birth. She likes to say she grows children and plants.

After the boys are in bed and the day is over she takes time for herself while I'm at work. I have no problem with this. She doesn't go off gallivanting around town 7 days a week all day long. She works hard at home, she does just about everything around the house, cooking cleaning etc. so the occasional night out is no problem for me. She always was this lighthearted free spirit, it's the woman I fell in love with, she just lost her boundaries.

Also read up on borderline personality disorder. Your wife resembles some of those symptoms.

I agree with this entirely, she has many of the symptoms of it, including impulse control. I think it started after the birth of our first son.

As for your and a lot of other's advice to commit to the divorce in order to regain control of my life, I have commited. She will have papers in front of her shortly.

I won't discount her SAD, because I deal with a mild case. Speaking bluntly, sounds like your wife is bored. (*You* are not boring.) And she needs to get motivated. Find a job. Find an IC. Find some direction in her life.

Ladies_first,

Yes, bored. I agree. Been trying to get her to find healthy ways to be un-boreded (spell check yelled at me for making up that word).

Sisoon says:

My reading is that your W lacks boundaries, and probably the only way for her to build them is some serious IC with building boundaries as her goal. That's the only way I see for her to stop betraying herself and whoever she's partnered with.

^^^^ This.

I also sense that you'd prefer R to D. Is that correct? If so, I encourage you to lay out your requirements for R ASAP, even while you file.
If you both know what your requirements are, you can combat manipulation more easily. That is, you can compare whatever she says or does to the requirements and discount the crap.

Yes sisoon, R is my preference however D is being started. I have already given her the very first requirement and she won't capitulate. Forget OM and go NC. She won't, so D papers are on the way.

Here''s something for you to read, If You Love Them, Divorce Them, http://www.survivinginfideltiy.com/forums.asp?tid469167 I hope I copied that correctly as I am copying from one machine to another. I hope it''s of some help to you.
Edited to say, cayotes have only attacked and killed one person in recorded history 1900 to now. So next time, keep walking.

Skan,

It is a great article and definitely where I'm at. Thank you! And.....lol

Thank you all.

Current state of affairs:

1. Forging ahead with the D.
2. Avoiding manipulation like some crazy Ninja!
3. 180
4. From what I can see, she's starting to panic, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
5. Content to know that one way or another this will be over soon.

TR

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 9:25 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

You: You can't go about sharing yourself like this with another man, doing the things you did, taking affection and intimacy away from me and giving it to someone else!

H: Who says?

*sigh* Forging ahead with the divorce is appropriate in this situation.

Just don't mis-interpret her *panic* for remorse.....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7906 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

*sigh* Forging ahead with the divorce is appropriate in this situation.

Just don't mis-interpret her *panic* for remorse.....

Gonnabe,

I'm not. Thanks. I am becoming more and more aware of what will be necessary to save this marriage and what her words, emotions and actions truly mean. We'll see what happens when I place the papers in front of her.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:40 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

FWIW, when I placed the D papers in front of Sultan...he called me *controlling*.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7906 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Sorry, but, and with all due respect, LOL.

Whatever her reaction it's now the only thing left to do.


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 10:53 PM, August 1st (Thursday)

Thinking about the sep agreement. I'm creating a pre-divorce finalization section for certain things. What do you think about putting in a requirement for continuing MC?

Not sure.

And edited in one more question...

Since we have no plans at the moment to tell the kids about what is going on, should I just sleep in our bed? I'm now concerned that #1 may start asking why daddy is sleeping in his room all the time. My primary concern over all this is the children. Some discussion before 6am est would be appreciated.

TR

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 11:05 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, August 2nd (Friday)

Why do I want her to call right now?

Spending 12 hours at work with not much to do......suuuuuuuuucks.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 1:17 AM, August 2nd (Friday)

You need to shit or get off the pot.

What is the point of MC at this junction in time? And why in the world would you include it as a requirement in a divorce document....other than to discuss how and when to tell the kids?

No. Don't sleep in the same bedroom as your WW. You're done with her, 'member? Kids ask? You tell them that your back hurts.....until you and WW have some sort of game plan -- which needs to happen sooner rather than later. UNLESS....you seem to work nights. I would think that it would be ok to sleep in your marital bed as long as WW isn't lying there next to you....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7906 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 2:03 AM, August 2nd (Friday)

Thank you for that dose of reality. I think my pendulum was swinging back for a moment.

Kids asking questions about sleeping arrangements I can deal with, it's up to her to tell her mother and our guests what's up.

I do work nights but not every night, so I think it would get confusing if I was back and forth. Plus, she is still in bed when I get home for an hour or two.

Thank you gonnabe2016 for keeping me on track.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, August 2nd (Friday)

Thinking about the sep agreement. I'm creating a pre-divorce finalization section for certain things. What do you think about putting in a requirement for continuing MC?

I would consult with an lawyer before presenting her with anything.

Anything that you do that has to be redone or modified by state and county law is going to be a further stall.

Disengage. Pay for not only the skill and advice, but for someone else to 'handle' it.

She is good at the power struggle with you, she has had years to figure you out. It will be much harder for her to linger and force continued contact when you have a representative working for you. Take yourself out of the equation and she will have to deal with someone who will treat her like an adult.

And by that I mean. No lingering. No worrying. No wading in the water where she can pretend the divorce is 'just talk'. Let the papers and the lawyer hit her right between the eyes and clear her vision a bit. Or not.

If you go the do it yourself method then you need to work very hard on maintaining the focus on results. This is business and if she wants to go off on a tangent, it is your job to pull her back or walk away.

Stay out of the marital bed if she is in it. And as you get firm, look for more panic and frenzied attempts to get you back in the fold. If she can get you in bed, into hour long talks.. that is one more moment, hour, day that she maintains the cake eat, the status quo. And know, if you participate, you are helping her perpetuate having the both of you. And that is her end game. Don't let yourself forget that.

If you do speak to her, make sure you have an exit plan. Stop rambling on the beach where you are both 'stuck' if the other decides to wander off. Limited contact on kids and finances. There are things you can control. Start doing so.

Consider heading down to D&S Forum. They have BTDT and can give you come concrete tools and options for dealing with the kid/tenant/MIL issues.

[This message edited by redrock at 8:46 AM, August 2nd (Friday)]


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3152 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, August 2nd (Friday)

All of your advice is very much appreciated and I am taking it all into consideration. Please believe when I say that I am not discounting anything.

One way I look at things: She's been doing this stuff to me for years, manipulating me and deflecting and blame-shifting. Akin to a sniper having taken head shots at me for years and hitting every time. Now...I've chosen to stand behind bulletproof glass. Every time a bullet hits the glass I can wave and smile at the sniper.

I've smartened up, she can try to manipulate me but I've taken the power out of her attacks.

I have accepted that D and 180 is the only resolution unless she comes to her senses.

On that note. I feel that every relationship is different and while all(most?) WS do the same things we can take back control and turn their game back around on them while appearing confident and in control of ourselves. I'm at the point now where my strength has returned, my pity party is over.

I've weighed my options. D is proceeding.

I wish we could afford lawyers, unfortunately due to our economic situation we cannot. It would bankrupt us and I'm not ready to put my children's future at risk over something that I'm smart enough to figure out on my own. Even if it lengthens the process. I understand it's not ideal or advisable, however it is our only option. I make enough to not qualify for free counsel but barely enough to keep us going. Life in the middle class sucks.

I presented her with a draft sep agreement and D papers this morning and asked her to read them so we can discuss. She did read them and said there are a few things that she would like to talk about. We didn't have time to do a full review but I asked her for a few examples. Property her mother has in their home country and the proceeds from that if it sold/rental income. A requirement for living no more than 40 minutes away from each other once separate households are established. The property I let go, I thought it was in her name but it isn't. The distance I stood firm, she said well what if I want to return home and resume my career there. I told her that she would be going without the boys, that I needed and they needed me to be a part of their daily lives. That was non-negotiable and that if she wanted that we would have to get lawyers involved, though I don't think any judge would allow children to be taken to another country, especially one with no extradition treaty with the US. But as I said, no time to talk fully as I had to get ready for work so the conversation passed although I stood firm with her.

The sleeping situation. This morning when I got home I slept in our bed. She was there for an hour before she got up. Later when I spoke to her I let her know immediately that the only reason I was there is that we were not ready to tell the boys what is going on. On the mornings I come home from work I will go to our bed. On the nights that I'm home, I'll fall asleep on the couch watching TV and come to bed before the boys get up or they'll find me on the couch and it's an easy explanation.

Her: Well you fall asleep in our bed watching TV, why not just do it there?

Me: Because we are getting divorced and I don't want to sleep in the same bed as you, but as I explained, since we're not ready to tell the boys, that is how it will be.

She looked defeated and that was the end of the conversation.

We had an MC session scheduled for Monday, 08/05/13. When we had our conversation on the beach two nights ago, after I told her we'd be divorcing, she reminded me about it and told me to not forget to cancel it. At the time, I had told her that I needed to inform him of this development and that I'd go alone. She accepted that.

This afternoon after the conversations above, she said that she'd like to come with me to the session. I told her that it was her choice. Now that I have time before the session, I feel I can gather my thoughts and be prepared to stand up to any final onslaught she may give there.

A long road ahead, but one leading into a bright, green forest, not the deadly swamp I've been mired in for years.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 6:35 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

I've been unable to update as I've had vacation all week, but here's the story.

I had been set on proceeding with the D. We went to our last MC session on Monday. I started out right away by telling the doctor that we had reached an impasse and we had decided to file for divorce. He asked us a lot of questions and the session began getting very tense. She and I were firing off lots of information, some informative, some argumentative and some just plain insulting.

The doctor shut us up after 15 minutes and for the first time since we began seeing him he peeled back the layers of this affair and got to the root cause of why it happened, what in my wife allowed it to happen and what our options were.

Basically the whole past 4 years was rooted in my wife's lack of fulfillment in her life outside of marriage, home, kids. You've read about her past, she was career, in the arts and suddenly she's in another country stuck in a house with 2 kids, not much money and a husband who works long hours at night.

I got it. Even better, she got it. Exactly what she had been unable to put into words.

Our session ran over by a half an hour and we talked a lot. Our MC said goodbye and asked that we call him if we'd be continuing our sessions.

Now, neither of us had said anything about reconciliation in the session. In my head we were still on track for divorce. Outside I walked away from her and lit up a cigarette. For a minute she stayed away and then came over and burst into tears. She told me that she loved me and didn't want to lose me. She said she was sorry for the pain she had caused. She said she understood what HER problem was and was willing to fix it in a healthy way, no more seeking fulfillment outside the marriage from other men.

I held firm and told her I would no longer tolerate lying, cheating, etc. She agreed. She brought up her desire to teach yoga and I said we'd do anything we could to get her in a training program.

It was nice to finally get acknowledgment that what she did was wrong, for her to show remorse and at the same time come to an understanding of what the cause of the past four years was.

Moving forward now. Each day has been better and better. She had been coming back to me for the past couple months, showing more affection and intimacy. Now it's getting more fulfilling because I can enjoying knowing she is remorseful for her transgressions.

I'm still vigilant and somewhat wary, but it seems to me that this could be coming to a close in time.

Trust but verify. Forgive but do not forget. Party on, Wayne.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

so...


are you going to do ONGOING sessions with your pyscologist about strangling your wife?

I am surprised, very disappointed and quite frankly DISTURBED, that it has only been myself and StrongerOne that has brought this up. I saw you deflect before in response to StrongerOne's question.

So I ask you what are YOU going to do to ensure this doesn't happen again. I don't give a shit about the circumstances surrounding 'WHY' you did it. There is no excuse.

So what actions are you doing?

" Fact, I had never been in a violent confrontation in my entire life up until that point and have not been since. It has been discussed with my IC the day after it happened and we both understand it was a one time event."

You need to change IC then...

As for the leg thing, sorry, I was trying to bring the tone back up a little bit by sharing a story of a playful incident gone wrong and I would ask that you go back and re-read those sections of my post with this explanation in mind. "

Right...
You may not be a wayward in terms of infidelity, but that is breaching your wedding vows too.

This is the last and first time I am commenting on any of your posts

I am far too disturbed.

[This message edited by lauren123 at 7:11 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

This is the last and first time I am commenting on any of your posts

Thank you lauren123 for not commenting on anymore of my posts, you are locking on to one point of my story and not seeing anything in my responses and explanations other than deflection. Not the remorse I felt for doing what I did or that I did speak to a counselor about it. Not the completely lack of any violence in my history.

The first incident was not a strangling, I put my hands around her neck, note, I never said I strangled her or applied pressure, I merely pushed her to the sand.

Thank you for taking one set of words and turning me into a wife abuser. Never did and never would again.

You may not be a wayward in terms of infidelity, but that is breaching your wedding vows too.

Breaching my wedding vows? WOW. For a playful punch on the leg?

As for that playful moment....my wife has punched me in the leg too, the arm as well, she's also smacked my ass pretty hard and I squealed. I'll make sure she seeks out professional help for her violent tendencies.

I am surprised, very disappointed and quite frankly DISTURBED, that it has only been myself and StrongerOne that has brought this up.

Maybe because other people can accept someone's remorse and explanation as valid instead of jumping to conclusions and berating them and labeling them an abuser. Sorry.

I also don't lump StrongerOne into that category because he/she didn't respond afterwards, which I hope was an acceptance of my explanation.

TR.

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 7:27 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

Breaching my wedding vows? WOW. For a playful punch on the leg?

You being blase about leg punching and bruising is disturbing. Whatever way you put it, pushing, strangling etc. That IS abusive. And you're incredibly blase about it.


As for that playful moment....my wife has punched me in the leg too, the arm as well, she's also smacked my ass pretty hard and I squealed. I'll make sure she seeks out professional help for her violent tendencies.

Your 'humor' leaves a lot to be desired, that's not dark humor. Might be awkward humor but considering: the strangling, pushing or whatever you would like to call it, doesn't seem to be a good idea.... hey? Sounds pretty abusive to me. Also, you mustn't have a very good IC, from the way you have portrayed the 'conversation' about it.

So since I've been able to respond to your post so you can properly comprehend it. Hopefully that will be the last post.

Unless I need to explain it again.

Your missing the point, what are you going to do to ensure that it doesn't happen again? What are you going to do that when you are confronted in such emotional turmoil that you don't do that?

Seriously, it's a fight or flight response. You've shown you're a fighter, you use techniques so it doesn't happen again. What ACTIONS are you doing so it doesn't happen again?

You love to paint yourself as a good guy. I would be really really interested to hear your wife's interpretation of all of the events.


Have a good day.
---------------------------
ETA: since seeing your post...

Wow, you are really not remorseful, you can't reply with what you're doing about it. Becuase you're not doing anything, at SI we have Actions= remorse. You seem to be a very controlling person as well. Very sickening. I wish your wife all the best in the world and hope she remains safe.
------------------------------

[This message edited by lauren123 at 7:58 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

I'm actually not blase about it at all. Again, if you read and see my remorse for what I did and that it is not the type of person I am and that I discussed it with a counselor, you might see that.

You'd prefer to try to label me as something I'm not. See what you want to see, but please, stick to your guns and stop commenting on my posts. I came here for relationship advice, not to give advice on how to accept that some people actually do tell the truth and that they can be remorseful.

Thanks!


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
StrongerOne
Member
Member # 36915
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

Sorry, dude, I have not responded because I was irritated by your response and did not want to go off without thinking first.

You're getting into semantics here. So, it wasn't strangling. You "just" out your hands around her neck and forced her to the ground. Doesn't make it better. If anyone had done that to me, I would have been terrified. And then I would have pressed charges.

Maybe you have addressed it in IC and will never do it again, are sorry, etc. My point was that you were joking about it, and my point now is that you don't seem to be getting why a couple of us think "this one point" is serious.

Regardless of what your wife has done or continues to do -- and you'll get no argument from me about her behavior, she's seriously f'd up and I think you would be wise to divorce her -- anyway, regardless, the hands around the neck and pushing incident is a bad one.

Playful leg punching -- ok, I get it, if you're both messing around like that, fine. But please stop being defensive about the other incident. You are in the wrong on that one.

[This message edited by StrongerOne at 8:14 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


DDay Feb 2011.
In R.

Posts: 852 | Registered: Sep 2012
TemporalReset
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Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:22 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

StrongerOne,

I wasn't joking about that incident. It was sandwiched between humor and that was inappropriate. I'm sorry it seemed that way. However, I thought by my responses that I had made it clear that:

I do not take what happened lightly.
It is not in my nature.
I spoke with a professional about it.
My wife, a woman who would not stand for physical abuse, understood the moment and has forgiven me for it.
I get why you think it's serious but it seems that you are trying to make it a pattern and a character fault rather than an isolated incident to which I am repentant.

By these admissions I'm not being defensive (with its connotations) but I am defending myself from someone trying to pigeonhole me into the role of an abuser. I shared a moment I wasn't proud of and have so far made amends for.

Sometimes you have to let people apologize and say they're sorry and show that they understand they did something wrong. I thought that people here would understand that.

TR.


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
Kalliopeia
Member
Member # 35053
Default  Posted: 9:59 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

abuser.. I don't believe you are.
you reacted to a trigger. Loads of people here have reacted to triggers.

I remember one woman who claimed she had pushed a bookcase over onto her WH.

I don't see what else you can do except what you have done: realize it has gone too far, detach and address why it happened.

You have a complicated situation and my own opinion is so what if your wife suddenly understands she is a cheater because she has enough wits to lie and cheat, but not enough wits to get a job in a new country, or to choose new friends with similar interests.


So are you going to re-engage or keep walking through the door?


Posts: 478 | Registered: Mar 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

Kalli,

Thank you for understanding my "hands on" situation.

As for the wife. It's not so cut and dry as "she couldn't get a job in a new country". Before the birth of DS1 she worked here and was active. Together we decided she would be a SAHM. We couldn't afford daycare and honestly, didn't want someone else raising our child. The isolation, depression and loss of her career dreams got to her and she went down an inappropriate path. I am not excusing her. She chose that path and now it seems as though she is understanding it. The wit to find friends with similar interests: Unfortunately this is how the EA started. She and the OM shared quite a bit of interests. It was her lack of fulfillment that led her to blur the boundaries. Same with the first OM, they offered her something she was so desperately lacking and she convinced herself it was okay. Again, I'm not excusing her or defending her, SHE made a mistake that segued into a 4 year nightmare and she is being held accountable for it.

Our situation has changed now. Her mother is permanently living with us. Our children are of school age. Even when she would be at work it's a family member and not a stranger with the boys. With the help of our doctor she has realized what she's done and why. Time to move forward. She will pursue a career that will fulfill her needs outside of the home.

With this in mind I can't, in good faith, walk away from someone who professes to want to get back on the right path. We'll work on it together. I have decided to re-engage. And just these past few days I have seen a real change. But please, trust me when I say, I am in this eyes wide open and the first sign of her old ways and the situation will be addressed. She was never good at hiding this stuff to begin with.

She told me what was going on with OM1 before it happened and I was so detached I ignored her warnings. It took me less than two months to figure out what was going on. OM2, I knew what was going on from the start, I/we just did everything wrong. Then, I was afraid of losing her and I gave in to her WS ways. Now, not so much. I have already committed to D as the solution if SHE can't fix herself.

So...yes, re-engaging and making damn sure she stays on the straight and narrow.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

It was her lack of fulfillment that led her to blur the boundaries.

No, it was a lack of boundaries that let her fuck around with someone else.

Lack of fulfillment, that doesn't mean jack shit. She could take up knitting.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7425 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

Sorry, I disagree. Take someone who was extremely career oriented and who was extremely committed to a healthy relationship and take that external fulfillment away from them. Boundaries can be crossed. Literature shows that boundaries can be crossed before a person even knows they are doing it. You are trying to posit a "chicken or egg" argument to this when it's not that type of situation.

My wife was a very faithful woman, as I'm sure many WSs on this site were, and she had many opportunities to cross boundaries prior to the past 4 years and she handled them all well and remained faithful.

We are all unique individuals and while many, if not all WSs, follow a script for their infidelity, saying they are all lying, cheating bastards at heart is a disservice to them. No matter what 'evil' they've perpetuated.

I believe my wife traveled the road she did out of a lack of fulfillment and that it led her to cross boundaries.

Tell her to take up knitting and she'd laugh at you. Knitting doesn't replace a career or lifelong friends or family in a another country or a lifelong dream that she gave up to be here.

We are all fragile and we can all break. Some people cheat because they're miserable bastards without boundaries, some because they've become lost. You can't lump them all together. That would be like saying everyone who cheats is a sex addict or everyone who cheats is a porn addict.

My wife hurt me. She did the worst thing someone could do to their spouse. I cannot believe that she had it in her all along because that's not the woman I married. That woman got lost somewhere along the way.

TR.

[This message edited by TemporalReset at 11:20 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

The phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" sums it up, and you still end up in hell. I'm not trying to posit anything other than the fact that your wife did something wrong, and the idea that it was because of a lack of fulfillment rather than crap boundaries doesn't work IMO.

She'd laugh at knitting, but cheating on you isn't a bad idea to compensate for a lack of fulfillment? There are many people who'd laugh at that too - who'd try their hand at knitting and find meaning in it before embarking on whatever path of self destruction an affair might lead them down.

You seem to assume I have a certain perspective of waywards. Why is that? Are you worried that if your wife isn't all that wonderful stuff except this one time, then she's all those horrible things you said?

Nobody is a cheater until they cheat. Martin Luther King Jr. was a cheater. That doesn't make the work he did any less great, and it doesn't make his infidelity any less wretched. His boundaries with other women were crap, no matter how visionary he was when it came to civil rights.

Of course your wife had it in her all along, because otherwise it would not have happened. Everyone has it in them to cheat. There is some set of circumstances somewhere that will help anyone over that line. That's why good boundaries are always blurry because they are kept at a distance where they can't be crossed. If you're so close to them that they're blurry then you haven't been keeping good boundaries.

Your wife may have been unfulfilled, but she could have chosen any number of ways to find that fulfillment. She chose to cheat on you. Twice, right? I read a great phrase from one of the waywards around here awhile ago:

"It's not the waters fault the cup is broken."


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7425 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
ionlytalkedtoher
Member
Member # 39802
Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

I read your post a few days ago but have yet to comment. This whole situation is sad.

I agree with a few others on here that if it were just a lack of fulfillment then she could have gone about that in other ways. The fact that she had these affairs several times over leads me to believe that she does have more of a problem then you are willing to admit.

Serial cheaters have more than just fulfillment issues.

as for the hands on incident---I think it was just a reaction at the time. But I could be wrong only you would know that.


Posts: 262 | Registered: Jul 2013
Kalliopeia
Member
Member # 35053
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

I am personally troubled by some of the statements and demands your wife has been making. Hopefully she has taken a sep back and no longer feels she should have romantic persuits while pretending they are freinds she can't live without.

Her actions of leaving your children in the care of her mother most of the time (?) while she wanders around doing as she likes, speaks worlds about who she is as a person. BPD/NARC.. I don't know.

I don't blame you for having enough hope to try and give it another go. Maybe you feel you need to do that in order to be sure. I hope you will stay detached from her enough this time that if she let's you down, you can simply say you had enough and walk away.

Guard your heart and I hope for you that it goes well, but if I were you, I would be expecting this to start up again in about 6 months.


Posts: 478 | Registered: Mar 2012
nomistakeaboutit
Member
Member # 36857
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Basically the whole past 4 years was rooted in my wife's lack of fulfillment in her life outside of marriage, home, kids.

From what I've read in your self-described lengthy posts brings me to a different "simplicity statement", if you will, from the one you have posited above. I'd go with something more like this.

"Due to her selfish nature, my wife found minimal joy in her children, me and our family. Unlike many people who after having children become less selfish, this was not and is not the case with my wife. Teaching Yoga will not solve this problem - a problem which is rooted not in her lack of personal fulfillment, but rather in selfishness. Her choice to act on her unhappiness by betraying me, unfairly blaming me and becoming a liar was arguably the worst of the available choices. I remain concerned that her selfishness will in the future cause a similar betrayal, not due to her lack of personal fulfillment but for some other equally invalid reason."


Me: BH 56.........Her: WW 43
DD: 6..........DS: 4
Married for six years.
DDay: 12-25-11 Divorced: 7-15-12
...................................
"It's like a nightmare within a nightmare, which in and of itself is a nightmare!"

Posts: 940 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: U.S.A.
Sparkles
Member
Member # 39901
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

"Due to her selfish nature, my wife found minimal joy in her children, me and our family. Unlike many people who after having children become less selfish, this was not and is not the case with my wife. Teaching Yoga will not solve this problem - a problem which is rooted not in her lack of personal fulfillment, but rather
in selfishness. Her choice to act on her unhappiness by betraying me, unfairly blaming me and becoming a liar was arguably the worst of the available choices. I remain concerned that her selfishness will in the future cause a similar betrayal, not due to her lack of personal fulfillment but for some other equally invalid reason."

This is so eloquently written and also the way I would view it.

I'm sorry, I know that's not the way you see it. From all that you have written it is clear to me that you are a romantic at heart, and that's lovely, but I think you are romanticizing something that is at its core quite ugly - infidelity. At any point she had the option to make a different choice and she didn't.

I hope that I am mistaken and you and your wife are on the road to reconciliation.


Posts: 138 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: In a better place
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

So her reason for taking core values and throwing them away was what again? Boredom? The knitting comment was facetious as I'm sure you realized. There were a myriad of other choices for her make.

Why is her default position to throw you and the kids under the bus? That's something more substantial than what you have described as her reasons.

Strength brother, don't want you to come back here in 6 months when she has decided that there is another set of issues that caused this.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2694 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

I'm going to agree with the rest that your proposed explanation is superficial at best. It may be a ggod place to start, and you're early in this journey... But you're both going to have to do a LOT better than that. My FWH also started out with a pretty pathetic explanation. His first therapist let him go with that. Thank goodness he switched. Now he's really starting to understand how he could have done this. Believe me, lack of fulfillment is absurd. There are so many better solutions to this problem, which we all experience in our lives, particularly women who become mothers. SHE FUCKED SOMEONE ELSE. SHE BETRAYED YOU. There have to be powerful underlying issues, unless she is really that shallow, in which case she's NPD or similar, and therefore irredeemable -- unless you're OK with a life of pain.

Have you read the threads in Ring? Especially the one "before you reconcile..."? Please think deeply about the extent of her remorse.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1055 | Registered: Aug 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Thank you all, your input is greatly appreciated and valued and I will bring up these issues at our MC session next week.

I tend to write moment by moment. I don't look too far ahead and sometimes my writing may be unclear in that regard. I was excited that we made a breakthrough in our relationship. It took us from walking out the door and divorce to a chance at reconciliation.

Her lack of fulfillment to me is the root cause of her unhappiness. It is my intention to work with my wife and a counselor to get to what inside of her allowed her to cross those boundaries. I was unclear on this and I made it seem like her lack of fulfillment was the end all/be all of her problems. I know it isn't and I'm not letting it go. We will work through this and she will do so willingly and happily or I will continue to walk out the door.

I thank you all for helping me find the strength to see this through.

Her actions of leaving your children in the care of her mother most of the time (?) while she wanders around doing as she likes, speaks worlds about who she is as a person. BPD/NARC.. I don't know.

Kalli,

I addressed this in an earlier post to someone else who said the same thing. She doesn't leave the children in the care of her mother. She is a very good mother. She spends all day with the children and 99% of the time is there when they go to bed. She is their primary caregiver and she does a great job. I'll let people knock her on not being a great wife, but she is a great mother. She want's to go do something for herself after spending all day taking care of the family, I'm not a monster and I'm not going to stop her. I'm not the type of man that tries to own my wife and keep her tied up in the house and I don't ever want to be that person. Now, I know we just need to address why she is crossing lines.

TR.


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Now, I know we just need to address why she is crossing lines.

"We"? Is she a project? You seem very detached and clinical. I can be too. Not when it deals with emotional real life stresses close to me.

You come across as someone that's setting up a research project on an interesting case study. She's your wife, not a puzzle to solve.

You keep talking about we. We made a breakthrough. She's completely responsible for her actions. There is no we here. You can't steer this.

Why do you feel her desire to "get out of the house" is necessary? Sure, breaks are nice. Taking care of kids can be tiring. Hell, any job can be as well. We can find ways to recharge that don't involve sitting in tea rooms.

How is not finding that activity ok equating with you being a monster and owning your wife? That's kind of an odd leap. It's like you're trying to explain away a precocious child's acting out like an over protective parent.

Holding people accountable isn't being a monster. It's not being an enabler.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 7:30 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

She routinely went out in the evening after putting the kids to bed? Seriously? The moms I know with kids this age are usually so exhausted by the evening that you have to pry them off the couch. Trying to get people out of the house for a girl's night is more complicated than coordinating the Olympics. If a mom does have a free night, she usually wants to spend it with her DH.

Just sayin'... This is pretty darn usual.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1055 | Registered: Aug 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

....

"We"? Is she a project?...She's completely responsible for her actions. There is no we here. You can't steer this....Why do you feel her desire to "get out of the house" is necessary? Sure, breaks are nice. Taking care of kids can be tiring. Hell, any job can be as well. We can find ways to recharge that don't involve sitting in tea rooms.

She routinely went out in the evening after putting the kids to bed? Seriously? The moms I know with kids this age are usually so exhausted by the evening that you have to pry them off the couch. Trying to get people out of the house for a girl's night is more complicated than coordinating the Olympics. If a mom does have a free night, she usually wants to spend it with her DH.


Okay, first off. You don't know my wife, I do (yes, I get it, she cheated on me, I don't know her that well).

In regards to her energy levels and what she does, she's a f*cking energizer bunny in the summertime...she cooks, cleans, entertains the children at the park/beach/home, kisses boo-boos, spends time with me, does the shopping, and YES she still has energy enough to go out every once in a while to breathe. Sorry she's not like the people you speak of who prefer to pass out on the couch. If she can do it and wants to, I have no problem with that. I'm not enabling her to go and cheat on me. Threats are EVERYWHERE, she could meet a man at the park with the kids or at the grocery store doing the shopping, hell she could fall in love with the school principal at a PTA meeting. I don't think it's important where she is. Having healthy boundaries and being able to protect them, that's important and yes WE are working on them.

There are three entities here that require attention: me, her and the marriage. Why the f*ck would I let her swing in the breeze on her own if I can help her to heal and grow and learn. Aren't WE supposed to be a unit? Not doing so would be CRUEL, as cruel as what she did to me. I'm not clinical, I'm not a doormat (any more), I'm not an enabler and I'm not going to let this happen again. I'm going to do everything in my power to help myself, my wife and my marriage to survive this. If I can't or she's not willing to participate, I have divorce in my pocket and it's an option I'm okay with.

Direct response to blobette: You must have missed the part where I mentioned that I work nights and am not home half the week. When I am home, we spend our time together.

I'm sorry but it seems to me the majority of people who are responding to my post seem to want to attack a lifestyle that THEY would not be okay with. That THEY would find unbearable. She met OM1 through a friend and the "night life" enabled her to spend time with him. She met OM2 in the middle of the day at his place of business. One last time, THREATS ARE EVERYWHERE. Her lifestyle is not the issue here it's her boundaries and I would prefer to get this back on topic.

Thank you.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:06 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Sorry she's not like the people you speak of who prefer to pass out on the couch

Um, where did you pull that from? I don't know anyone who passes out on the couch. Least of all me. My interests are quite far from couches. Try hanging from rocks.

Still don't frequent tea gardens to commune with strangers. Doubt my SO would be thrilled nor do I have any interest.

Have to tell you some of us are capable of managing that energizer bunny list AND have energy for other activities. It was her choice of activities.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:14 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

You know, a very short bit ago you were chuckling at the vision of coyotes on a beach munching on her. Now she's a wounded saint needing defending.

I dont see anyone attacking your lifestyle. Hell, no one even knows what it is beyond how you've represented it to be.

Threats are NOT EVERYWHERE. They're one place and one place only. They start and stop with her. That's all anyone here is saying. She's not a fragile wounded child. She's an adult. I'd think treating her like anything else would be violating your self respect and hers.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
MerryMeNot
New Member
Member # 35872
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

You are incredibly defensive. Please try not to be. No one's trying to hurt you. Is your situation unique, your wife different, your marriage one of a kind? Yes. And NO. Have you ever seen someone at the store who is wearing something not at all flattering to them? It seems obvious to those looking, but the person is oblivious. Are you oblivious to what's *really* going on? No, of course not. But you are surely invested in believing the story of your M.

You wrote a much longer piece about how you and your wife met. It seemed to me an exercise in creative writing, designed more to impress your audience with how great a writer you are and how super special your relationship is/was. You are a competent storyteller. What people here are saying to you clashes with this story, makes it less astoundingly unique. Perhaps this is why you are so defensive?

I wish you and your wife the best. Of course reconciliation is possible. Outsiders looking in on your situation see certain things in bold: TWO OM; fogginess on both your parts; denial. For myself, the plan/desire to be a yoga instructor is another red flag.

Look, the commonly voiced advice to "take what you need, and leave the rest" is good. Do that. You're fighting so hard against these perceived attacks on your WW and you don't need to.


BS - 42
my fWH - 48
M 8 yrs, together 10
his DD/my stepDD - 14
DDay September 2004; OEAs, PA that lasted 2 months

I have suspicions! He's up to something, I can feel it....


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: southeast US
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Um, where did you pull that from?

I was responding to you and blobette at once. In her quote she said that people she knew after doing that could barely be pried off the couch.

Point is, her interests and where she spends her time have nothing to do with her problem. I'm okay with what she does, sorry your SO wouldn't be and you aren't interested.

Again you are going after her lifestyle which is not the point. She met OM2 at his place of business, in the middle of the day, picking up wine for us. Should I lock her up in the house and only allow her out when I choose to go with her? Should I outlaw wine stores?

One last time, I'm sorry you aren't okay with her lifestyle. I am, move on.

If you could limit your responses to helping me re-establish healthy boundaries in our relationship I'd appreciate it.

It's sad, this forum has generated more stress for me today than my lying, cheating wife. Thanks.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Wow. That was a pretty hostile response. There was actually a bit of humor in there re the "pry off the couch" comment - it really wasn't intended to be taken all that seriously. I'm not trying to impose my lifestyle on anyone, but I do question why a mother of young children NEEDS to go out at night without her husband.

My WH doesn't like being alone. Although of course there are huge variations in this, it seems typical of cheaters, who need external validation. They aren't comfortable with time alone, they need other people, partying, whatever, to drown out whatever psychic pain they're not able to face up to. I really don't know your WW at all and have no idea what her issues are, but I guarantee that she has some, and her need to frantically socialize is related to that.

Please stop being so defensive of your WW. We're really not here to attack her. But we are trying to get y ou to see her more objectively. BSs do sometimes want to rugsweep, because the implications of facing up to things are so huge. You mean, I fundamentally misunderstood my partner throughout our relationship? You mean, they really do not have my interests at heart in the way I so blithely assumed they did? I'm not saying this is true of you, but you really have to open yourself to the possibility that this woman is really not who you thought she was. This is so, so very painful. This doesn't mean she's necessarily a horrible human being or irredeemable (although that could be true). But it does mean that there is something very seriously wrong with her, which you minimize at your peril. Unless you really grapple with this, the rest is bullshit.

Please believe that I mean this kindly. I'm sorry for being so blunt.

[This message edited by Blobette at 8:29 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1055 | Registered: Aug 2012
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:33 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

How am I wrong here, how am I in a fog.

I've stated:

I understand that my wife's own problems are the cause of her infidelity.
I've stated several times that it's not WHERE she is that's important to me, it's WHO she is right now. Who she is that lead her to be able to do the things she's done and what can be done to help her fix it.

I'm not being defensive, I'm defending my beliefs and MY core values. All I've heard is the way that I let my wife behave is wrong. Restricting her activities isn't going to solve anything.

Merry,

WTF is wrong with wanting to be a yoga instructor? Taking an interest and molding it into a career? Is there a list of post-infidelity approved occupations I should be reading up on?

And sorry, while yes, I think I'm an okay writer, I wish you had read the preface to my story. I was writing the story in a safe place to get it out of my head and to maybe help others to see that they can accept that someone they believed in that much could do the horrible things they did. I wasn't writing to impress anybody.

Uncertainone,

Where did you get that I'm treating her like a child? I'm trying to help myself and help my wife rebuild our marriage.

Also, I was never CHUCKLING at the vision of her getting munched on by coyotes. My entire quote on the matter follows:

Heard coyotes started howling from her direction while walking. Srsly.

I got back to her and said let's get you home. I mean I dislike her severely right now but not enough to let her get eaten by coyotes.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
TemporalReset
Member
Member # 40125
Default  Posted: 8:37 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Sorry, I need to walk away from this for now.

Thank you all for your help.

TR


Me: BS 40
Her: WS 32
Kids: 3,6
A1 - Summer 2009 PA, 2009-2011 Incomplete or False R
A2 - 2012-2013 EA
Status: NC AP, MC & R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013
MerryMeNot
New Member
Member # 35872
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Still defensive. I have read every one of your posts. Just as you are free to believe what you want about your wife and your situation, I am just as free to believe that your writing is inauthentic, your defense of your wife something you will deeply regret, and that your WW is looking for Mr. Goodbar. Okay?

What matters most is this: this community is here to help, even if you are too sensitive to understand that. Also, you cannot dictate what advice people give you or what kind of perspective they take on your situation. You are essentially clapping your hands over your ears and shouting LALALALA.

To repeat, you don't get to dictate the responses here. And none of the responses - none except YOURS - are hostile.


BS - 42
my fWH - 48
M 8 yrs, together 10
his DD/my stepDD - 14
DDay September 2004; OEAs, PA that lasted 2 months

I have suspicions! He's up to something, I can feel it....


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: southeast US
MegM
Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Dear TR

I have not posted on your thread, but have read all posts.

I can feel you pain on the page and can even recall a moment I experienced very like what I see coming out of your last post, in my experience here in SI.

I remember the point when my H, turned back to me, started to give me truth, beg my forgiveness. and I felt we had a chance for R.

At this point, I came unravelled with some responses and felt unsupported and attacted.

That is how I felt at the time, that in my pain SI had in that interaction become another place was not safe.

While reading and posting that day , I had ringing in my ears, felt giddy, and felt the overwhelming need to show everyone here what was lovable and worthy of my H. I felt we had both been attacked.

The thing is when I read back over the interactions - I was not being attacked. I was being challenged and asked to look at some things that may help me to build a safer future for me and my children. (with or without my M.)

Needing to reassert all the things we love and value about our spouse is very important (and understandable in agreeing to R). It is critical that this sits beside a clear view of all the behaviours and choices our spouse have made to blow up our world.

Over the course of your posts, it does seem that since the renewed hope of "R" you have clouded your view of some of her choices.

It is very natural - but it is important that at you uncloud your vision - Especially where you have shared with us your tendancy in the past to kind of give your power over to her.

I think that is why some posters are trying to put her choices and behaviour right in front of you again.
It may seem judgemental of your lifestyle - but really if you can step outside of that and reflect on your recent posts, you might see that you have communicated with us changes in your M (post affair and disclosure) that are about meeting your wife's 'needs and desires' and very little about the what she is going to do be a safe person again. To not blow up your marriage. To ensure she is actively protecting herself, you and your children from the pain of betraying her stated values.

I understand your pain, I can see your hurt. I agree with you that threats are everywhere - they are everywhere your wife is, until she works every moment of every day to live with integrity and be deliberate in choices. (Regardless of if she is ill, depressed or lonely).


You have lived to terrible pain and turmoil. Your children are living through this too.

Your vigilance now must be about making the healthiest and safest choices YOU can.

that is what people are trying to help you test.

Blessing to you and your family TR. We in SI are not in opposition to happiness and safety for you and your family - the opposite is true.

MegM

Edited for corrections

[This message edited by MegM at 8:48 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


BS / fWS me 41 (@ DDay)
WS / BS him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 ch(6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulders"

Posts: 628 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Red  Posted: 4:52 AM, August 12th (Monday)

General reminder:


The original poster is looking for support. If you find that you cannot be helpful and supportive, please get off the thread.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 8:25 AM, August 12th (Monday)

MerryMeNot
,

To repeat, you don't get to dictate the responses here. And none of the responses - none except YOURS - are hostile.

You don't need to tell TR what he gets to do. If you're so offended by his 'inauthenticity' get off the thread. If you cannot be supportive, get off the thread.

Nobody is here to prove anybody else right or wrong. If you feel like giving advice, in a supportive manner, do so. If not, back off the thread!

Thank you.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37229 | Registered: Sep 2007
MerryMeNot
New Member
Member # 35872
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, August 12th (Monday)

inappropriate

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:27 AM, August 12th (Monday)]


BS - 42
my fWH - 48
M 8 yrs, together 10
his DD/my stepDD - 14
DDay September 2004; OEAs, PA that lasted 2 months

I have suspicions! He's up to something, I can feel it....


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: southeast US
Topic Posts: 78