SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
Reconciliation
User Topic: Does it matter?
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

That is what my IC keeps asking me. I think many of you know that I do not believe that my WH's EA was not a PA. I am stuck on it, it seems, every few months.

Today, I am obsessing over vm messages I heard back in the day from OW where she says "Hey, it's me." Only thing I could find and definitely points to too much of a comfort level between the two of them.

My WH won't admit to anything more than that he got too close to her and that nothing emotional or physical happened. This is why we are also stuck because he does not really even see what happened as an EA because they never discussed feelings of any kind.

If I am honest with myself, I am not sure I would admit to anything if I were him either. He KNOWS that I would be outta here before the last word left his lips. I guess I haven't made it safe for him to be truthful. (I've read a ton about that and I didn't exactly handle dday and subsequent questioning as I should have.)

Recently, after this discussion for the 100th time, my WH said yet again that nothing happened etc..., and I asked him if he had denied it to begin with and now he just finds himself too far down the rabbit hole of lies to be honest. This is what I believe.

WH has contacted a person about doing a polygraph. The polygraph comes up whenever my WH feels like he is in a no win situation which is whenever I keep going back to my doubt about his story. He is angry about it and gets angry that he would have to be strung up like a common criminal to prove to me that nothing physical happened. The scheduling has been left that he is to email a week before he wants to schedule it. This is per the polygrapher. I have seen the email stream.

My husband is on extensive travel the next few weeks so really, he would be emailing probably next week if he actually will. Part of me thinks he has gone this far but will not actually go through with it. We get along fine in between my bouts of doubt. Whenever we get along, its as if my WH forgets that I still doubt him. We are currently getting along and I have not mentioned my doubt yet again, so I question whether he is thinking of emailing the polygrapher at this time. I will not ask. I want this to come from him. And I am not even sure a polygraph is the answer. It seems if I have to go that far, then our foundation is broken- nothing solid to build on.

This is no way to be in a marriage at all. My IC has asked me why making the distinction between an EA or a PA is important. Ummmm duh? And I guess at this point, aside from the sex, it would be about the lying this whole time.

I guess the truth is that it just comes down to trust. I don't trust that what he said happened is actually what happened.

I don't think it is still going on or underground. The OW was very persistent after he told her that their relationship got too close and comfortable. She demonstrates narcissistic attributes according to my IC. I often wonder if it had been PA, I think she would have been more bat shit crazy.

Obviously, to answer my own question, yes it does matter to me. My IC keeps asking me what I want. She says if I want to try to move on with my WH, then I will have to trust what he says happened. I have no other choice. Not trusting what he says will keep me stuck in the past. She does ask me if this is a deal breaker for me. SOmething I have also posted about many, many times, even from the beginning.

I just don't know what to do. Can you R with someone when you don't believe their story? Am I projecting my own thoughts and feelings onto their relationship and saying that it had to be more? How do I move forward? I want to be done with this but I don't know how.

And running away seems the most logical way to be done with it. It is what I do whenever someone hurts me. I push them away and move on. I guess I do not know how to forgive people.

My IC leaves me with the same thing time and time again. I am getting nowhere because I am stuck.

I can choose to believe what he says and start to build from today, look at what he is doing today and choose each day to trust him moving forward.

Or I can decide that this was a deal breaker. That I do not believe him. That I cannot trust him and begin the process to move on without him.

When I read on here it seems people have trouble moving forward when they don't trust their spouse about things happening in the future. I do trust what he is saying and doing NOW.

What I do not trust is what he says happened then. That is the past. What do I do with that? Am I the only one struggling with that?


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

brokensmile: this is EXACTLY where I'm at. In fact, it woke me up last night.
Do I trust him now: kinda, I certainly don't think anything is going on with the OW, although NOTHING would surprise me, which is sad.
It's the way things have shaken out that we are like this. We thought we knew someone and turns out, we don't! And that shakes us to our very core.

Are you projecting? No!! I think your gut is telling you there is more.
I have no idea if I have all the truth. There is no way I do, considering he didn't confess and I had to catch him or ask OW what happened. This is tough stuff to recover from. It messes with your brain... and you start questioning and questioning.

Does it matter if you have the truth - absolutely. You need to know you're not crazy. You need to know you're not being manipulated and controlled into staying married. You need to know if you're married to someone who can carry out a lie for so long.

I get so pissed when people say, "does it really matter if he's being good now?" good grief!!

Hugs brokensmile, hugs!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
forgivingnow
Member
Member # 33549
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

Your gut is still telling you that you need the truth. When you have the truth, even if it is horrible or seems unbearable, you no longer feel crazy, the anxiety goes away and you feel some peace.
You deserve honesty, to be loved and treated with respect.
(((brokensmile322)))


Me-BS 51
FWH-51
M 31 yrs.
Dday 3-19-11, TT 10/2011, Full truth July 2013
Strength comes from within. You can't get it from someone or go somewhere to get it. It is already here, waiting to be used when you need it most. Believe in yourself.
R

Posts: 615 | Registered: Oct 2011
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

So if I go down the "it's my gut talking" path....

what do I do with it? I still will never know. I looked. I could not find anything to prove anything PA. I could not find anything that was emotional either. He was either very good at covering his tracks or there was really nothing to find.

I am still left with the same options. What do I do?


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

((brokensmile)) I so get it.

I'm a former wayward wife and I had to tell my husband I screwed two other guys (well one was a rape but still). You know the first thing he said: I knew there was something else. And this is after I kept the truth from him for a year... I controlled and manipulated him into staying married to me. SO UNFAIR to him..

I think some people can live with themselves for keeping the truth from those they love. I guess I watch closely to see if there is anything else he is lying about. I see how hard he prays in church. I still would not be surprised if anythign else happens or comes up.
If it does, I will leave. If I continue to feel unsafe I will leave.....

Hugs to you.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
pewpewpew
Member
Member # 38116
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

I SO get this. Everything. Our stories are so very similar it's almost disturbing...

The only thing I can add is I did speak with OW. She backed up WHs claims and denied an A. For some odd reason I believed her. She may have lied as well, but I have no proof of anything happening.

I have times where I have my doubts. I obsess over the details. Possibly
It is my gut screaming there's more and not to ignore it.
I've gotten to the point I don't trust my gut anymore. I've become almost obsessive with thoughts/mind crap I wouldn't know truth from fiction.
I've made up so many different scenarios in my mind I forget what the facts are...

Does this make sense?


ME: 30
WH: 35

Fool me once - Shame on you. Fool me twice - pack your shit and get out.


Posts: 310 | Registered: Jan 2013
fallingquickly
Member
Member # 36599
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

Before I knew my STBXH was wayward I found a charge for women's clothes. I expected to receive them for Christmas. When I didn't, I questioned him. He came up with a story that didn't seem right. After DD#1 and DD#2 he still stuck to the story about the clothes. Finally, after tons of TT, he told me he had bought them for OW#3. Until he admitted that I felt crazy because I knew it just didn't feel right.

Some thoughts about this:

-He felt he had to stick with the lie after so long. I think because he has a problem with me being right about something. The worst was already out but he couldn't admit this.

-He continued to lie. I already knew about 5 OW but he couldn't tell me the truth about some clothes. Makes it difficult to believe the smallest thing.

-It's crazy making to feel something in your gut and have them say no. I never really believed him but also didn't trust my feelings.

My advice is to have him go through with the poly. My WH said he would take one but I didn't follow through. I wish I would have. If you do this you might be able to put away those feelings and move on.

In my case he continued hiding things that were unnecessary to hide and continued to lie. I finally had to give up.


Divorced and beginning my new life.


2 Ddays and lots of TT
divorcing

Scars remind us where we've been. They don't have to dictate where we're going. (Criminal Minds)

I saw him, I could not unsee him. -StrongButBroken


Posts: 453 | Registered: Aug 2012
pearlharbr
New Member
Member # 38072
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

Of course it matters. If you're gut is telling you that there's more to the story then he should absolutely have the polygraph. A key tenet for R is trust but verify. He should be willing to prove to you that he's an open book and be happy to have a way to do this.

I'm dealing with a small version of this right now. I never believed H when he told me OW was never in his vehicle. IMO, that is a case of deciding whether or not it matters. In the long run, no. For me, knowing whether it was EA or PA is a BIG deal and a truth that you deserve.


Me: BSO, 40 / Him: WSO, 40
Together since 2000
DDay: 11/08 A with COW
Reconciled, Married 12/11

Posts: 47 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: PacNW
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

I caught my H kissing his intern 17 years ago. Both of them denied that it had progressed any further. I threw him out, he got counseling, blah, blah, we reconciled.

11 years later he went down that path again. Dday 1 when I discovered the phone bill they both denied the PA. 18 months later when I got the anonymous letter he finally started telling the truth. I asked about the event 17 years before--yep, a PA.

If I had gotten the truth all those years ago perhaps we would have gotten to the root of his issues then. And we could have avoided the LTA. Plus I never did believe him and it was between us all those years.

My point is that I sure wish I had gotten the truth then. If I had known about polygraphs then I would have totally had him take one. He did take one this time (and passed).

He lied to me about this many, many times. Perhaps it made it easier to lie (and cheat) in the future.

It is possible that he is telling the truth. But you deserve to know. It matters if he gets away with lying to you, IMHO.

Good luck.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1772 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

Thank you everyone for your posts. I truly appreiciate it. I appreciate everyone giving me insight and letting me know that what I am feeling is not that crazy at all.

I think WHY it matters for me is that I felt a disconnect with my WH at the time. He was distant, not interested in me, put me last on the totem pole, discounted my feelings etc... I felt it and it was real.

I also felt his attachment to the OW. I did not know the extent and really, if I had spied longer maybe I could have uncovered something. But I fell apart when I discovered he had lied to me about how close they had gotten, when I discovered that he had been deleting texts and when I discovered that he had spent time with her that he did not disclose.

I felt it and ^^this was real. He does acknowledge this, but he says that it was not what I think. Could it have gone that way, maybe, but that they never discussed feelings and he lied because I was bothered by her and he didn't want me to think something was going on.

In addition, he behaved wierdly when I had my dday. I confronted him outside while he was doing work. I broke down. Accused him. And he basically denied and kept on doing work. It was not how I would have responded. He says he was not going to chase after me because nothing was going on and he wasn't going to act nuts about the situation because it was not what I thought.

There are a few things like ^^this that I could write down that just do not make sense.

My IC has cautioned me that I cannot know how he 'should' react in any given situation. Because I find something strange does not make it true. Again, she brings me back to "What do I want". Where I say that I want a life with my WH. Then she qualifies that by saying then I must choose to believe what he says. There is no other choice.

And I guess for me, the reason it matters to me is that what I felt at that time, I want that feeling validated. I want to be able to say that I wasn't crazy and I wasn't wrong.

My IC has said that it sounds like the only answer I will accept is if it was a PA. She says that it seems no other answer will suffice.

And the thing is, my WH does say that he got too close to the OW. He says it was fueled by his having to do business there a lot. That the amount of time brought them closer, he assumed that they could be friends the way he has been with male coworkers. He did not realize it was wrong at the time. He knew I didn't like the friendship but he thought there was nothing wrong with it because it was innocent. To him, it was business with a bit of bantering. He says that all of this ^^ does validate what I was feeling at the time. He said that he saw after dday that it was a slippery slope. He did tell her that it got too casual. When she still tried to text stupid texts about non business stuff, he told her that they made him uncomfortable. He says that he has shut her down at every turn. He says that he has cut her out because it was a slippery slope. He says he wishes I could see that he did not mean to hurt me this way and that once he realized what was happening, he stopped-immediately.

I am rambling I know, but today is not a good day for me. Thank you everyone again. I feel better getting this off my chest!


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
RockyMtn
Member
Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

I've never been big on the gut thing. This is so whacky for all of us that our gut becomes distrustful. I can count as many times that my gut was dead wrong as it was dead right. I'm not anti-gut feeling - it was what lead me to look at his phone for the first time ever in our marriage - but I think it is more complicated.

I say get the poly. Pronto. I think he is a perfect candidate. There is just one major question. That's it. And its an easy yes or no. For folks who have a lot more questions or nuances, I think a poly can get tricky in the sense that it might not give them what they need. I think it will give you what you need. And his approach to the scheduling and the days leading up to the poly will be telling as well.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
Myheartstillhurt
Member
Member # 32430
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)

I see how you would want your husband to do some follow through with the poly on his own, but you are the one suffering with the unknown!

The poly will clear it up for you. Either he passes, or he doesn't. If he is willing, just make the appointment or insist it gets made. Many people here get "parking lot confessions" prior to going in.

This is for you and your sanity. You will know if you can believe your husband or not.


BS(me) 32
fWH 36 (Epicallyfailedu)
OW/xBFF of 28 years
Four girls under 11
DDay: 6/5/2010

Posts: 2011 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: Michigan
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, August 9th (Friday)

This is such a fresh and horrible topic for me right now, so I'll keep it short.

I always knew his EA was really a PA. Knew it. Just this week I had a freak out moment and for some reason it finally pushed him hard and far enough to confess. OMG, the pain I'm in right now is horrific.

I had always told myself that he continued the lie maybe because of all the emotional reasons...he has a lot of baggage and can't open up to anyone about anything, plus he knew it would be horrible for me to hear. Then there's the years he's been lying, very hard to choose to tell the truth when you've told the lie for over 5 years.

But you know what? It wasn't that nice or that complicated. The truth and details of the P side are WAY worse than I ever could have imagined. He didn't confess simply because do so would be so EMBARRASSING for him. What he would have to tell me was more awful than I was prepared for/could have prepared for, and he knew that. He knew I could live with it being P, it was quite another story though if I could live with the full truth of P side, and he wasn't willing to take a chance.

Now I have to live with the fact that he has put me through the worst hell of my life (worse than the actual A), just to save his own rear from being embarrassed, and taking a chance. There is just no comfort in that realization.

If he had confessed this all 5 years ago, the whole truth of PA, the details and the extent of it, would have been SO hard to overcome, but I might have. Now I have all of that AND the years and years and years of pure and utter hell that he calculatedly put me through to protect himself at my expense....I just don't know that we can recover....I know one thing, I wish like hell he'd been man enough, and been willing to fight for me and us hard enough, to take the risk!

HUGE *hugs* (((brokensmile322)))


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, August 9th (Friday)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I know deep down that it does matter. And if it does matter, I don't think there can be a future for me and WH.

I know that if I want to be with him I would have to accept what he says, but that is essentially rugsweeping, IMHO. Trying to move on with someone who is rugsweeping rarely works in the long term.

We had another discussion about it this AM. I asked him a few questions that have been bugging me. He was nice enough answering them. I honestly do not know why I ask them because I know he will never admit anything if there is anything to admit.

He did bring up the poly again and said he should just schedule it. Maybe he should?

We did touch a bit on his relationship with OW. I finally said that I do believe him now, but that I do not believe him about what he says happened then. That felt good to get off my chest. I don't think I ever worded it that way before.

He did end up angry again at the end of our talk. Again frustrated. I think the big thing is in how we define what happened. And for him, I think he has a strong need not to look like a bad guy to himself. Does that make sense? I think admitting anything about his feelings or intentions with this OW would blow his own view of himself out of the water.

I have an IC appt early next week. I really need it I think.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, August 9th (Friday)

And for him, I think he has a strong need not to look like a bad guy to himself. Does that make sense? I think admitting anything about his feelings or intentions with this OW would blow his own view of himself out of the water.

I think this is very difficult for some people. They say to themselves, "I'll behave and then it'll be ok." which is rugsweeping at the very least. Perhaps it was a short period of time, hell even a ONS when they acted out. Still, it crushed lives, changed the emotional nature of their marriage so it bears looking at, intensely. I wish people would realize that.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:05 AM, August 9th (Friday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
NeverAgain2013
Member
Member # 38121
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, August 9th (Friday)

WH has contacted a person about doing a polygraph. The polygraph comes up whenever my WH feels like he is in a no win situation which is whenever I keep going back to my doubt about his story. He is angry about it and gets angry that he would have to be strung up like a common criminal to prove to me that nothing physical happened. The scheduling has been left that he is to email a week before he wants to schedule it. This is per the polygrapher. I have seen the email stream.

I can't stress this enough.

I think it would be foolish to do business with ANYONE your husband supposedly contacted - whether you saw the email stream between them or not. I wouldn't put it past your H to have put his feelers out to his friends and coworkers in the hopes that someone is a friend/brother/uncle of one of these poly guys and that maybe the results can be "skewed" for a few bucks.

I think you should find your OWN poly source and be in charge of making the appointment yourself, not your husband. You need to stop giving him so much control over what you need in order to start healing.

And quite honestly, it's too bad that he's offended at being strapped down and wired up. Too bad, so sad. And when the truth comes out (as it often does), the end will justify the means.

Lastly, stop letting him stall and keep putting this off. All that allows him to do is seek more ways to figure out how to beat a poly. His browser history probably has hundreds of hits for that very subject on it (but he's probably erased it).

Make that appt. with your OWN polygraph tester now. Broken, don't be surprised if the morning of the appt. he breaks down and confesses with a half truth in the living room or out by the car as you're both getting into it or right in the parking lot of the polygraph office before you go in for the test. That's what's commonly known as "the parking lot confession." That's when they realize the jig is up and they know they have to spill to you before a stranger humiliates them and makes them do it anyway. But usually this "confession" is AGAIN, only the bare minimum like you've gotten all along, but something they hadn't admitted before. It's still not going to be the whole truth.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they now know the truth and don't go through the poly, only to find out down the road that they've only been given a tidbit of the whole REAL story. So it's highly adviseable to STILL go through with the poly.

Otherwise, all you've got is his word, and unfortunately, that's gotten you nowhere.


Be careful - that 'knight in shining armor' may very well be nothing more than an assclown wrapped in tin foil.
ME: 50+ years old and cute as a button :-)
Ex-WBF: Just a lying, cheating, gravy-sucking pig - and I left him in 2012.

Posts: 1838 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: USA
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, August 9th (Friday)

You wrote:
Can you R with someone when you don't believe their story?

Nope, you can't. This - not EA or PA - is the crux for you.

PA or EA doesn't matter - JMO, of course - because either is a giant betrayal bringing on excruciating grief, anger, and fear.

Telling the truth matters a whole lot. Accepting responsibility and acknowledging what one has done matters a whole lot. A WS cannot R unless she is truthful with herself and with her partner. (Today I'm using pronouns from my own - male - POV....)

A parent needs to make it safe for a kid to be truthful. IDK if you need to make it safe for your H, presumably an adult, to be truthful.

Have you considered a polygraph?


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, August 9th (Friday)

@Sisoon,

Very, very though provoking post....

So I guess what I am hearing you write is that it does not matter whether the A was an EA or a PA. What matters is that I don't believe what he is saying about the A.

And to answer your question, NO, I do not think I have made it safe for my WH to tell the truth. I think he is fearful that I would leave.

So after I have screwed this up, I am really not sure how you go about making it safe for a WS to be truthful.

And yes the polygraph is on the table. And the polygrapher my WS contacted is someone I contacted first and someone I had communication with several months prior to my husband. After my WH's frustration, he contacted him again and the future of it remains in WH's hands.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, August 10th (Saturday)

So after I have screwed this up, I am really not sure how you go about making it safe for a WS to be truthful.

It's hard to explain. I just knew my wife wasn't telling me the whole truth. I kept asking, reasking, but always in a calm manner. After she quit her job, she tested me by letting out some new significant TT after I had asked. I didn't react negatively, thanked her for telling me, and we talked about how nice it was letting it go, and I'm still here. The next day, bam! She told me the whole truth. She was a new person after she told me everything. She was free. Her IC was encouraging her to come clean too.

For me, the truth helped to assembly my puzzle. A lot of things came together and made sense, -the distance at times, the anger, her emotional roller coaster moments, those times when I felt I was going crazy, I was not. I was normal.

Also, telling the truth stripped away the intimacy they had. They had no more secrets between them. I wanted all intimacy, all the secrets. I wanted to know it all.

[This message edited by still-living at 7:53 AM, August 10th (Saturday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 787 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
MrsDoubtfire
Member
Member # 24786
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, August 10th (Saturday)

I am still left with the same options. What do I do?

Get him to take the poly asap.
(((HUGS)))


BS(Me) FWH(Him) DDay 05.09
A went underground. True R 02.10
I won't let another woman reap the benefit of enjoying the man my H has now become†

Posts: 1584 | Registered: Jul 2009
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, August 10th (Saturday)

Gosh still living.

I don't know how to make it safe. After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.

I think some WS want to get it off their chests. I think others will take it to their grave.

Bottom line for me, I don't believe him and I don't trust him. No where to really go from there.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, August 10th (Saturday)

broken,

Here's some more food for thought. BTW, I think I'm clear on the choices I think you should make, but you've got my support whatever choice you do make. (I figure you'll eventually make the 'right' choice, in your own good time.... )

How did you screw this up? Your gut says he's still lying - are you supposed to step on/stuff/ignore your gut feelings? Is your screw-up that you're listening to your gut? (JMO, but I applaud you for listening to your gut, and I don't think you screwed up in the least.)

When I wrote last time, I was thinking that an adult needs to set up his own feeling of safety for truth-telling. You may leave if he tells the truth - but that's a consequence of what he's done, not of coming clean.

Now I'm thinking, 'well, yeah, but a cheater is acting like a child, so maybe you ought to make allowances....' Nope. That sucks. He won't come clean unless he chooses to - it's all up to him.

What are you going to do if he never comes clean? We've already established that you may be able to rugsweep, but you can't R, unless you believe him. Will you choose to rugsweep or leave? My point is that it's OK - actually, IMO it's essential - for your H to know a LOT is riding on how he behaves.

Unless you take rugsweeping off your table, it's going to be very difficult for him to change. If he senses weak resolve, he's likely to exploit it - and you.

WRT the polygraph, I urge you to take control of it - you engage the operator, you work with him/her to craft the questions, you get the results directly, you make sure the operator doesn't have any private conversations with your H. If your H makes the arrangements, your H is the customer, and you need to be the customer yourself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:42 AM, August 10th (Saturday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

I don't know how to make it safe. After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.

I think some WS want to get it off their chests. I think others will take it to their grave.

I could have written that just about word for word. I was SURE, 200% SURE, not a doubt in my mind I was absolutely married to a 'Take it to Your Grave' spouse.

Until THIS happened:

Unless you take rugsweeping off your table, it's going to be very difficult for him to change. If he senses weak resolve, he's likely to exploit it - and you.

Once I was finally done, and I mean DONE rugsweeping, and let him know it, he never actually considered telling me the truth, it was never an option for him...and seriously, why would he? I'd let him get away with it for years. Once I meant it (and trust me they know when we mean it) I gave him the choice, either fess up or I'm out. He didn't purge on the spot, but I was relentless. He was so good at waiting me out and every other time it worked, within a few days or maybe a week tops, I'd go back to rugsweeping right along with him. This time was different, and after a few weeks, he knew the game was up. I just wish I'd done this YEARS ago, would have saved us both a tremendous amount of pain...there would also be a lot more details left in his brain!

So it's sounds like he's willing to take the poly, that could be a good sign, or...

Any chance he doesn't think you'll follow through? It has been my experience (and it sounds like maybe yours too based on your quote), that WS's that will deny evidence staring them in the face, will deny, deny, deny ANYTHING and EVERYTHING right up to the very last second. I'm pretty sure in this situation, my FWH would have a) denied until he drove into the parking lot to take the test -or- b) taken the test, failed, and found a ton of reasons why it was all bs, how poly's are crap and tell me the test didn't prove a thing.

I hope that's wrong. I hope he takes that thing and PASSES!!!!

(((((brokensmile22)))))

[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 2:08 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

@Sisoon

Thank you for another thought provoking post.

You are right. I know. If I let him rugsweep, he will. The problem is he could be rugsweeping or he many not be.

At his point, I am really, really feeling that the only person I can trust is me. And perhaps trusting my gut is the way to go. Much to think about this weekend.

Opus,

I pulled this from your bio

He has made great strides to be a better father, and better husband. I am still here after 5 years, but the more time that goes by, the worse I feel. Our happy life now is a lie, it's only as good as I can pretend to be FINE. We cycle through episodes of almost manic good times, amazing sex and young playfulness. Then out of the blue I wake up one day just so exhausted enacting this charade and I just can't take it.

And gosh, could I have written this! It's only as good as I pretend to be fine!


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

I need to update my bio... He confessed to the PA on Monday. Finding SI changed my life, in many ways. One of them was helping me feel like I wasn't crazy for feeling that everything just wasn't quite right. That I wasn't crazy for thinking a TT'er that only admits what you have proof of is still (most likely) hiding something. I got the courage to do what hadn't been able to do before...and he confessed to everything I'd always known! Today, just 5 DAYS later (after five YEARS), he says he's glad I found my way here, because finally we can start to heal. So my official start date of R is 8/5/2013, finally.

Much luck to you!!!


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
HopeImOverIt
Member
Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

Hard for me to believe that only thing he is keeping from me happen to be the two things I found.


"Not Just Friends" says something to the effect of "WS: if you're only confessing to things your spouse already has ironclad proof of, prepare to go to divorce court."

Has he given you ANY details of things you didn't already know? What personal things about YOU did he tell her, what personal things about HER life he is holding secret, etc. Even EAs have details that must be shared in order to rebuild trust and intimacy.

And yes, book that polygraph.


Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 9:45 PM, August 10th (Saturday)

After dday, there were two things that my WH lied about. I found proof and he had to admit. At first, one was right there and he was still denying. After those initial lies, WH has never strayed from his first story.

This is exactly were I was at. I caught her, caught her, and caught her again with lies, but the weird thing was that she seemed remorseful. She lied straight to my face on her mother's grave and then I pulled out proof. As a result, we discussed her taking a lie detector test but we never made the call. She came clean. My gut stopped screaming when she told me everything. What she told me made sense. It's when recovery began.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 787 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 2:20 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

Broken smile,

Our situations are so similar that it's hard to believe we aren't talking about the same man. My husband claims he hid the contact and deleted texts because he thought I'd be jealous. I've never given him ANY reason to believe I would react in a jealous way, especially about a coworker. I love how he blames me though. Have you ever given your husband any reason to think he had to hide it from you? My husband won't admit to any feelings for the OW, says they never discussed feelings or anything sexual. As far as he is concerned, the only thing he is guilty of is lying to me about her and taking her someplace 4 times. I feel like a crazy person. I keep going back to the fact that people with nothing to hide, hide nothing. Last month I told him he needed to leave until he could admit to having some sort of feelings for her. He spent a week in a hotel and we were still at a stand still. I decided to meet him in the middle and accept this answer, which was he took her to a certain place 4 times because he enjoyed spending time with her and he chose her because that's who he wanted to spend his time with. He said he knew it was wrong but did it anyway. Part of me thinks he really believes his own lies or he's really out of touch with his emotions. I would find it easier to move on if he could be 100% honest. I keep regressing because I just find it hard to believe that nothing happened.


Posts: 727 | Registered: Jul 2013
ItsaClimb
Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 2:40 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

For nearly 9 years all my WH would tell me is "we were more than just friends" At first I badgered for more info and then I think I went into some sort of denial, I rug-swept it and would only refer to it if we were having an argument about something. Finally in Aug last year it all came out (the full story is in my profile) It was WAY more hideous than I had ever dreamt possible!

If your gut is telling you there is more, my advice is to follow up on that. Don't do what I did and "let is slide", it will niggle at you and eat away at your peace. He may be telling the truth, he may be lying, the bottom line is that for your own peace of mind you need to know for sure.


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 19yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 1024 | Registered: Oct 2012
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 6:31 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

Everything ItsaClimb said, it ate and ate away at me. Every time I cycled into my bad place was worse and longer than the last, until I just could't take it anymore. I could't take the more than just friends but didn't feel anything...seems pretty unlikely with no sex involved. The truth was more horrific than I could have prepared for, but finally, it is the TRUTH, and that's all I ever wanted.

I asked him yesterday after posting here, if he'd ever really considered telling me if everything over the last 2 months hadn't happened, if it just continued on like before...he said no. He could just never see a positive outcome. I asked him to look back over the last five years, how long were our 'good times'? Not a day or week or two, but could he remember 2 whole months of good times, he just shook his head, he looked sad. And it is sad (for both of us) to realize he would have settled for that life forever, have me settle for it as well, just to keep those secrets. I think he finally realizes that he can be a better man, the man he wants to be...like the last line in 'Dry Adulery'...

Embody your potential rather than just referencing that you have it.

Most important, is he can now be that man for himself. And because of that, a better man for me; and that is a man worth respecting, one worth fighting this fight for.

We have a lot of tough work ahead, I pray we make it, but at least now we have a real shot.

* HUGS * Brokensmile322 - Schedule that poly, follow all the way through to the truth, whatever the truth happens to be!


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, August 11th (Sunday)

Thank you so much for the virtual hugs and support. Gosh, it means so much.

Have you ever given your husband any reason to think he had to hide it from you?

Well, here's the thing. For 17 years, I never gave him a reason, never cared where he was or what he was doing all that much. He traveled a lot and many times I wasn't even sure what city he was in.

My husband worked with the OW for a few years and it wasn't until a few years into it that I heard him talking to her on the phone. It was all business, but it was casual. He was joking with her. At that time I said to him, "I don't like how you are talking to OW. You talk to her like you talk to me." I then became more aware of her and, yes, she bothered me. So this ^^ is why he said he started to hide it.

He is a person who always sees both sides to an argument. Rarely takes sides and plays devils advocate often. It drives me nuts sometimes. What he says is that in all his training he is coached that you need to treat minorities the same (race/gender). He says that he saw himself doing things with her that he would have done with his male colleagues as well. His relationship, he says, got closer but only from the fact that business in her area was in trouble and he needed to turn it around. He said he had not been performing well at work for a few years, kind of mediocre, and they were laying people off. He said that is why he was focused on that area. It's where he saw he could grow because it had been in a slump. It was the time that made their relationship more casual. He says that because I was worried about her, that is why he hid it and he didn't think anything was wrong with the things he did because he saw it as business as usual.

NOW, after MC he admits that those things were on a slippery slope. That who knows what could have happened. He says what changed it for him was an article I gave him shortly after dday. It detailed a woman's account of an EA with a coworker that turned into a PA. She listed all the steps and processes that happened. He said that moment was a light bulb for him because he was 2 or 3 down on the list of things he was doing. He said that scared him when he read it and it wasn't until then that he realized it was dangerous.

He did start to change his relationship with OW from that point. Finally, he told her that they needed to go back to business and their relationship had gotten too casual. I heard their whole conversation. She was taken aback. No one could have faked her reaction. She still tried through texts, but eventually, after several more texts and calls to her that said things like "Your text made me uncomfortable and was too personal", she finally got it.

He says there was never any talk of feelings etc.. Mostly business with some banter or kidding around. He considered her a friend as many of his male colleagues are as well.

He has maintained this story from the beginning. The two things he lied about were things he did with her. He says he did them because he would have done them with a male colleague as well. He lied because he knew how I felt about her. He says this is all there is. He says that when dday happened, he started changing his way of thinking. He says it never wavered. He does not care about her, never did and what matters to him is me and his family. He wishes that I would see all the changes he's made, the uncomfortable conversations he's had with her, the cutting off of her, better boundaries all around, that he has made and I should realize that he loves me, he' s sorry, and we can be great.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 7:58 AM, August 11th (Sunday)]


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

He has maintained this story from the beginning. The two things he lied about were things he did with her. He says he did them because he would have done them with a male colleague as well. He lied because he knew how I felt about her. He says this is all there is. He says that when dday happened, he started changing his way of thinking. He says it never wavered. He does not care about her, never did and what matters to him is me and his family. He wishes that I would see all the changes he's made, the uncomfortable conversations he's had with her, the cutting off of her, better boundaries all around, that he has made and I should realize that he loves me, he' s sorry, and we can be great.


The thing is, this all sounds very reasonable. He admits that he was on a slippery slope and is sorry for it. He's made changes and wants to move on. Lesson learned. All very believably put.


But what I can't understand is this. If he is telling the truth, and this *is* all there is - there wasn't (in his opinion) even an EA - he was just on a 'slippery slope' then *why* isn't he backing this all up by him being the one literally begging you to book the poly?


If his conscience is that clear then there should be no doubt in his mind that he could 'fail' a poly. So what's he got to lose by pushing the issue? Why isn't he?


He knows you doubt him and he knows that you want to move on just as much as he does.


So what's stopping him being PRO active here and DEMANDING that you book a poly to clear it all up? If I were him that would be the obvious answer to me.


But he's not doing that. Why? When it's just so easy to do?


Brokensmile, if I were you I'd book that poly I wouldn't be able to rest until I did.

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 12:17 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1890 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

To be clear, he has pushed it. Contacted the guy again, found out how much, where, and what the procedure is, etc...

So what's he got to lose by not pushing the issue?

He has but he says... his dignity. That he would be strung up like a common criminal, people who commit crimes.

An almost anger over it. That and the $ it would cost.

Early on, I contacted one and found out how much etc.. Told my WH and he said he would do it, was still angry, but also said that he would not discuss this anymore then when it shows he has been telling the truth.

My problem is that the polygraph could only prove if he slept with her or not. He still had an EA in my opinion and therefore, I need to talk about this topic as much as I need.

He says that I do not want him to get the poly because then I would have nothing to fight with him about.

And yes, I realize that this could be what is said when someone is guilty. I realize that. He picked up the phone to call the guy yesterday. What stopped me? I don't know if I trust them. I think I would question if he beat it even if it said he isn't lying.

So when I realize this ^^fact. I think maybe he is right. Maybe I just want to fight?

I don' t know I am so conflicted and need my IC appt so much tomorrow. Feeling helpless and hopeless at the moment.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

My husband tried to convince me he saw her as one of the guys. I said well she's clearly not a guy so stop. Here's the thing though, he made a choice to hide it and to me if feels like he hid it for his own selfish reasons. No matter if I gave him a reason or not. At that time, he felt it was worth lying to me in order to maintain their "friendship". My husband's business was going through a very difficult time too. She is his GM. Where kind of places did he take her? Did you have any idea that they were spending time together? My husband will barely speak to her at work now. It's very awkward.

Posts: 727 | Registered: Jul 2013
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 6:01 PM, August 11th (Sunday)

Let's back up a step - put aside your gut feeling, just for a moment.

Is your H Transparent? NC? in IC? Except for this one issue, is he honest? Is this the main issue between you and R?

I think you might treat this as a communication issue. Have you considered MC or some joint sessions with your IC to discuss this with an objective (or quasi-objective) observer to help translate between you?


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 7:27 AM, August 12th (Monday)

Is your H Transparent? NC? in IC? Except for this one issue, is he honest? Is this the main issue between you and R?

Hmmm....Sisoon. You always make me think.

Yes, he is transparent, he is honest, he is NC to the degree that he has to be for work (he has recently taken a new job so he no longer works with her directly but he very occasionally needs to answer a question). I have access to his computer, his email, his phone. The truth is, I really had access to all of this stuff before dday too. I just never looked. He never locked up any of it the way other people describe.

Now, he is in contact more, shares what he is doing, has made new boundaries at work (with her and with others), has changed (he says) how he does business with people i.e....he says he thinks about how and what I will think now and also how it will be perceived.

TBH, I am struggling more with his job now so we do discuss, sometimes argue, over what he does, but mostly because it is MY issue. I realize this. The arguments about these types of things come from my insecurity and fear over losing him. And really, they are things that are just business as usual. ^^This I think is normal and just needs to be worked through and renegotiated.

So yes, I would say this is the ONE thing that is blocking us in our quest to R.

We did try MC early on. The MC was horrible. He didn't really know what to do with us because we do communicate and we do have a pretty good relationship otherwise. We like each other.

Then I went to IC and WH has sat in on a session or two. She tried to get him to see what this has caused me. He did/does see it but he says he doesn't understand it. Even though he doesn't understand my reaction, (WH says that it was just not that deep of a relationship), he has made changes. Though, he does acknowledge that he shouldn't have done it, that it took time away from us etc.. He just doesn't understand the depth of my reaction at this point.

IC says that if I want to R, I need to choose to trust what he says at this point. She has also suggested MC for us and WH will go. Both of us just don't want a repeat of our first experience.

WH says that he has done all he can at this point. The last thing he could do would be this poly but that it is demoralizing, degrading etc... I worry that he will resent me after. He will do it, but then he says that he has done everything he can. It is up to me then. He can't do anymore, he will continue to do what he is doing, he will go to MC, but at some point I have to do something. He has recently said that he can no longer carry the burden of my happiness around with him, it is too heavy.

Maybe it is just me.

So I guess I would ask you,

What do you mean by a communication issue?

We do communicate. My husband has said I just do not like the answer. My IC has said that it sounds like I will only accept one answer.

I'll take a 2x4 if I need one. I think it is just me at this point.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 7:31 AM, August 12th (Monday)]


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, August 12th (Monday)

The last thing he could do would be this poly but that it is demoralizing, degrading etc...

this, to me, seems like a red flag. I'm a former WW. I would welcome the chance to make my BS feel safer by taking one. It would not be demoralizing. I demoralized and degraded myself. Actions, meet consequences...


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, August 12th (Monday)

Yes, but from his statement he did not have a PA. He doesn't think he demoralized or degraded himself because he did not have a PA. He thinks he was on a slippery slope and he changed.

And, if he is being truthful, I CAN see that this would be demoralizing and degrading.

And no, if he did do what he said he did and it wasn't a PA, I don't think that he demoralized and degraded himself. I would think he made a mistake.

The problem is that I would never know if I was actually asking him to demoralize or degrade himself until after. Who wants that between us?

He says he WILL do it.

He again, this weekend started to make the call, phone ringing. I stopped him. And I stopped him because

a) From the very beginning, I have felt that if he does pass and it does shows he is truthful, I think he will be resentful that he had to do it.

b) I am not sure of the accuracy. I do think I would still question the validity. IOW, I would think he passed it because he 'beat it' or he flunked it because it wasn't accurate.

I think I need to come to terms with it or not. I do not think the poly would solve anything for me.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
WoundedOpus
Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, August 12th (Monday)

To me, it shows his lack of wanting to make you safe. So he admits to making a mistake, a mistake that would naturally lead any spouse to worry. If it were me, I would NOT find proving that I was faithful under these circumstances degrading. If I had done nothing of this nature wrong, yes, I can see that I would be upset, but he did do something wrong, admits it, and I would think could understand why you're concerned...to me it's a no brainer...

I love my husband. I chose to cross a line and make a mistake with someone of the opposite sex that has left him scared, hurt, and worried as hell. He naturally has a problem just 'getting over it', as would I. Since it's obviously affecting my marriage, and I want to protect and preserve my marriage, I choose to do whatever it takes to do that. And if I find he's wishy washy about me doing it and has stopped me before (and things weren't getting better), I pick up the phone when he's not around, make the appointment and go take the test. When it's all done and I pass with flying colors, I do not then wave it in his face, I do not feel vindicated, I do not make him feel like shit for degrading me. I just feel relieved that my stupid line cross didn't cost me my husband and happy that I had a way to proactively help my husband feel safe with me, and ecstatic that my marriage has a damn good shot at being great.

I know not everyone would feel that way, but if I was in your shoes, that's exactly how I'd want my husband to respond.

Only you can decide what your motives are and what you need to trust and feel safe, and move forward in your marriage.

[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 9:13 AM, August 12th (Monday)]


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
bewildered22
New Member
Member # 36487
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, August 12th (Monday)

Broken...it is a double edged sword no doubt. I would have to question if you are hesitant to poly more because of fear...fear of the possible truth and where that will leave you as a couple. I think all WS lie..mine did. I honestly think the lying hurt more..when you plead for the truth and all you get is TT. Have him take the poly..contrary to IC I think that is the only way you will be able to move on..with or without him. From experience..go into poly prepared for the worst possible outcome. I was completely blind-sighted because after some TT I "believed" I knew everything and was just there to verify. I don't think there is any chance of true R without the belief that you know everything. My WH was not happy with poly then and now..feels it was degrading etc. but at the same time he says he would probably have never told me the truth..and honestly I really just didn't/don't care how he felt about it because this is a consequence of his actions, selfishness, and complete lack of consideration for me. At this point..words mean nothing..it is all about actions. ((((brokensmile322)))

Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, August 12th (Monday)

To me, it shows his lack of wanting to make you safe.

yep this...

I don't get the "if it wasn't a PA it would be degrading thing?"

there is no dignity lost in making your spouse feel safe. We do it all the time, whether infidelity is part of our life or not. It's a loving, healthy thing to do.
You're not be accusatory, you've been lied to and need some back up to move forward. Nothing else.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, August 12th (Monday)

Why I think about a 'communication' issue...

1) He says 'no PA', but you don't believe him. Maybe that's because he's sending non-verbal signals saying 'lie'. Maybe you're not picking up that he's sending 'total truth' signals. (And maybe something else entirely....) A decent MC might be able to help you understand each other better.

2) He says if he passes a poly, he's done trying to prove to you he's truthful. Maybe that's defensive and a red flag. Maybe he's saying he's done because there's nothing else that either of you can think of to get you through this impasse. If that's the case, maybe an objective 3rd party can help you both see another way out.

3) Maybe the real issue for you is that he's minimizing the importance of an EA. With the 2 of you going round and round on the PA question, you won't catch this aspect unless someone mentions it, which I just did. A decent MC could possibly observe other issues between you and your H. What's more, a decent MC can help you resolve them.

4) You had one bad experience with an MC. You're healing from infidelity and R'ing, for crying out loud - a bad MC should roll off you like water rolling off a duck's back....

Seriously, you're way stronger than a bad MC. I know a bad MC can add tremendously to your pain, but the benefits of a decent or better MC are enough to make looking again a good idea.

Overall, JMO - I think a communication problem may be involved in your impasse, but you know a lot better than I do.

ETA: ...and I may be underestimating the traumatic nature of a really bad counselor. Still, I think it's worth making a few calls and interviewing some MCs.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:38 PM, August 12th (Monday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
HopeImOverIt
Member
Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, August 12th (Monday)

He degraded himself by lying to you. Does he get that? Does he understand how he broke your trust and now it's HIS job to show himself trustWORTHY?

He didn't just minimize the EA, he lied about it. I'm guessing that it wasn't "just" a lie of omission but an actual false assertion right to your face?

Our MC said "Trust is earned not given." IMHO that is the right view, not your IC's view that you can just decide to trust him.


Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, August 12th (Monday)

To clarify,

My IC says to take one day at a time. I should ask each day,

Today, is my WH doing what he should be doing to earn my trust? Is he NC, transparent, says what he means,etc...

If the answer is yes, I choose to trust him today.

And I get that. I do.

Her opinion is that:

The problem is that I do not trust what he says about what happened then. He really can't do anything to 'prove' the past. He can only work on today, and the next day and the next day. So, based on the question above, I choose each day to trust him each day I see trustworthy behavior. Then he starts to earn it back. Another words the choosing is the beginning of the process, the earning comes after repeated effort on his part.

Don't know if I am saying that right.

He didn't just minimize the EA, he lied about it. I'm guessing that it wasn't "just" a lie of omission but an actual false assertion right to your face?

And here is the thing, and the problem with EA's in general, is that he doesn't think what he did was an EA.

What he says happened does not fit into the standard definitions you find in most books or articles. He doesn't meet all the requirements according to those things and I have no proof either way. And most of that has to do with feelings and you can't ask questions about feelings or intent on a poly graph.

Yes, he could be lying, it could have been physical or it could have been a full blown EA with feelings and I love you's and the whole nine yards. (Obviously this is what I struggle with.)

But it could have been what he said as well and I will just never know for sure.

^^This is why I said the polygraph would show if he slept with her, but it doesn't show intent or feelings etc...

My IC just asks me, if I am willing to walk away from a M based on a possibility. I don't know.

About the dignity thing, even WS who have taken them have said they felt the same way. So I don't think he is off there. I don't know their circumstances but if you had already admitted or were caught in a PA, I think you could maybe rectify the dignity thing in your head. What do I know? My WS doesn't admit to anything and I couldn't find anything to bust him with so I do understand the dignity thing.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, August 12th (Monday)

So today he booked the polygraph. He is angry. I think he is looking at it as his "get out of jail free card."

He can then say he tried everything and be done. Why he isn't just done now, who the fuck knows.

My head and my heart hurt.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
HopeImOverIt
Member
Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, August 13th (Tuesday)

So today he booked the polygraph. He is angry.

Anger is a red flag for me. How DARE you try to get evidence that he isn't STILL lying?

Sounds like a tactic to get you to say, "Oh never mind." Don't fall for it.


Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
Teach8
Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, August 13th (Tuesday)

(Brokensmile322). Thinking of you. I'm so sorry you are hurting.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, August 13th (Tuesday)

((brokensmile)) you are brave!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, August 15th (Thursday)

At the time my WH made the call to set up the polygraph, we were also arguing about an incident (nothing A related) where WH tried to 'slip in' something he knew I would not like.

^^The argument about this thing is what sparked the call.

You see, my WH tries to manage me. IOW, if he knows I will be upset about XYZ, he will ignore it, slip it in (like he did here), tell a partial truth etc... All of this is done to manage my reaction. I see this clearly. He is just coming around to 'seeing' that this is what he does. Our awareness of this is Post A. This is actually how he had handled the OW during the A and why, now, it is a huge trigger.

It is a deep engrained FOO issue for him as well. This is how he deals with his mother. We have somewhat the same personality so this is how he learned to deal with her,

I don't want to be like her and I am working on it.

To me, this is a marriage issue.

Anyway, he came back and apologized for how he reacted to my anger over him 'slipping in' this thing. We talked it through; it was cathartic.

^^This thing is something I think we could work through effectively in MC.

The Poly was never mentioned during his apologizing. He told me it is scheduled for next Friday.

A few days later, when something A came up, he said without any anger, well next Friday will answer that for you.

So maybe it will actually happen. He still does say "I can't believe I have to do this to prove to you that I did nothing PA with her. I will do it and then I can't do anything more than what I am already doing." This is now said, without any anger, but just more matter of fact.

I am nervous. I feel anxious. I feel guilty. I feel crazy.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 9:25 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jun 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, August 15th (Thursday)

((brokensmile)) continue marching forward!! This is the right thing to do. Please don't allow him to make you feel guilty for asking for this...


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:30 PM, August 15th (Thursday)

I see this clearly. He is just coming around to 'seeing' that this is what he does.

I take it that he wants to change that behavior, so IMO that's a giant win for both of you and for your M.

I am nervous. I feel anxious. I feel guilty. I feel crazy.

Hmmm...I think I understand nervous and anxious. I also could get 'excited', because the recent insight can lead to really good stuff fro you.

Guilty? For what? You kept pushing for a positive change, and it's happening. If you had stopped pushing, I could see 'guilty' for giving up, but not for this....

Crazy? well, you wouldn't want to be dull and normal, would you?

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:31 PM, August 15th (Thursday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, August 15th (Thursday)

From now on and forever more, no matter what my gut tells me I will follow it until the end of the earth! I didn't listen to it one time and I wind up with a 4 year mess!!!!

Broken.....if your gut is telling you something listen to it. We are all in hypersensitive mode and our body's tell us lots of stuff that we would have not cared about before.

I vote for listening to your gut. It knows you, your spouse and your situation like no one else.

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 2:40 PM, August 15th (Thursday)

A few days later, when something A came up, he said without any anger, well next Friday will answer that for you.


Yes. I hope it does. It could be such a positive thing for you going forward that he would do this for you. I hope he starts to see it that way too, and I hope that this is the start of some real changes in him. Don't feel guilty - this could be the start of some forward motion in R.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1890 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Topic Posts: 53