SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
Wayward Side
User Topic: On the other side
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 10:20 PM, August 26th (Monday)

Good mooring everybody,

For the longest time I was a BS....now I a a Wh :( Is this where I can post....sorry a little confused but I think I have a lot to bring to the table....expecially for all BS


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
homewrecked2011
Member
Member # 34678
Default  Posted: 10:23 PM, August 26th (Monday)

I'm not sure, but I'd love to hear what you have to say,

Maybe a moderator will let you know soon.


me BS 52
him - 46
married 15 years DIVORCED 10 31 12
children - ds15 ds12
d-day 12-19-11
I gave a 24hour ultimatum then went to attorney next day
Divorce filed

Posts: 2145 | Registered: Jan 2012
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 10:32 PM, August 26th (Monday)

pappabear...

A moderator sent you the Madhatter rules so please pick the forum and 'hat' you're wearing to post under


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197932 | Registered: May 2002
MystiKay
Member
Member # 36401
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, August 26th (Monday)

Just curious. Sense you are a mad hatter have you gone back and read your posts form when you were a BS? And compaired what you felt then to what you feel now?

Posts: 282 | Registered: Aug 2012
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)

Yes I have; I am ending the A tonight. Believe it or not this relationship I had even though it was short finally gave me closure. I no longer think about her A and become upset because I understand. It makes you feel young again; it was nothing she did wrong; it was purley selfish. Please do not get me wrong I am not saying that having an A yourself is the cure, it just happened. When I do tell my wife it will be in full detail and I will beg for her forgiveness. I will not keep it from her.


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)

So it gave you *closure*? What, because now you're *even*?
Are you kidding me???


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8023 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
hardtimesinlife
Member
Member # 10468
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)

I'm disturbed by this post, pappabear. You don't even feel remorse? You had a "relationship" while married and feel ok about that? I think what you did was have an RA. And, the point of an RA is precisely to tell your wife all the details. I think you should dig deeper. Do you like yourself now? Would you be proud if your kids knew? Would you understand if your wife did it again, and felt younger?


Ddays 2004 & 2007
I cut my losses mid 2013
Feeling happier every day :)

Posts: 6110 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Florida
stilllovinghim
Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)

Papa, I responded to your post in Wayward but this:

it was nothing she did wrong; it was purley selfish.

Wait....what??!! I can't even...so she was innocent but selfish? Are we talking about the same person? An adult, right? Not a two year old. Did you accidently mean for that sentence to go towards a text regarding a child in another forum or personal text to someone you know? I mean....for the love of....*smh*

Eta: I'm guessing you're saying that because you feel it applies to you as well.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 11:44 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, August 28th (Wednesday)

No I do not feel closure because I feel *even*...I just understand...it's hard to resist. Few more minutes my W will be home and I will tell her. This sucks!!! I know now how she felt when she told me...but I will not leave out anything...get it right the first time. I hope she beleives me that there was no sex...there is no reason for me to lie here.


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, August 28th (Wednesday)

I am not saying that having an A yourself is the cure, it just happened
No it didn't! You fed it. You chose it. You made it happen. It was a decision.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9710 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
PrincessPeach06
Member
Member # 39588
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, August 28th (Wednesday)

I am sorry but I wouldn't even want to put my worst enemy through the hell I'be been through...let alone my WS. If I want to feel "young" I will go hang out in a nursing home.


Me (BS): 35
Him (fWS): 36
Married 16 years 6 kids ages 15-6
DDay #1 (EA) July '08
DDay #2 (EA/ONS- different OW) May 15, 2013

Finally this is R 8/14/13

"Forgiving is a journey; the deeper the wound, the longer the journey".


Posts: 299 | Registered: Jun 2013
struggling3
Member
Member # 34671
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, August 28th (Wednesday)

If I want to feel "young" I will go hang out in a nursing home.

This made me chuckle...in the middle of a post that was mostly making me sick.


Me - BS 55
H - WS 57/very remorseful and supportive
Kids 28, 25, 22
D-Day 8-5-11
discovered 4 month long EA
R - slow and steady but very optimistic

Posts: 316 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

I'm always trying to be more understanding of individuals and not lump people into generalizations and be more forgiving.

May I ask a question as a BS?

Do you think "it's hard to resist" was true for you now because you knew about her A? Do you think this A for you would have happened without that knowledge?


Posts: 556 | Registered: Jun 2013
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Yes I do :( I didn't come to that conclusion until after


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
nowiknow23
Guide
Member # 33226
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

----posting as a member----
it just happened
Huge cop out. It didn't just happen. You made choices that landed you where you are. Until you can own those choices and stop looking at this as something that just occurred, you really WON'T get it. At all.

ETA: Also, please consider updating your tagline to reflect your madhatter status. I know many folks rely on the tagline to understand the poster's situation and perspective when responding to threads.

[This message edited by nowiknow23 at 2:00 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]


You can call me NIK

"Sometimes it takes a good fall to know where you really stand."
-Hayley Williams


Posts: 25507 | Registered: Aug 2011
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

May I ask another question?

Did you ever contemplate and RA or fantasize about an RA?


Posts: 556 | Registered: Jun 2013
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Yes I did coniplate a RA...never did it but I did think about it...and yes it just happened believe it or not...her husband has ignored her for two years...she was in tears and I got scared and held her...she looked up and kissed me...we kissed for at least 5 minutes...it felt amazing....I am not ashamed of saying that....but I am done....and I am ashamed of what I did....but still care about the AP....


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Had you known each other a long time?

Posts: 556 | Registered: Jun 2013
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

her husband has ignored her for two years
How do you know? Do you live with them? Or is that what she told you? You do know that cheaters are also liars right?

So she was scared and you kissed her. Why did you kiss her? Do you kiss all scared women you meet?


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6253 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

How do you know? Do you live with them?


Sorry...that was a good one


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197932 | Registered: May 2002
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Yes know each other since we arrived back in Germany September 2011...met her with a group of old friends...only met her H once. I wanted to tell my W tonight but got nervous...I am thinking of sparing her the apin since she would never find out anyway (yes the A is over). And yes also because I do not have the courage. I am rationilizing but wouldn't it be better if she never knew...at least she wont hurt...right? But I know I wanted to know everything when she had her A. But I wish I never found out....thoughts??? Not just insults please...thank you


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Do you feel it would be better if you never found out about your W's affair? You can't have it both ways...it doesn't work that way.

You expect certain things from your wife...honesty, transparency and respect. And now that you've cheated, your wife deserves those same things from you.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197932 | Registered: May 2002
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

One question. Who's insulting you? All I see are honest questions and comments. Do they bother you? Why do you think that is? Do you think that maybe it's because those comments have truth in them and you are scared to look at it?

I know when I first came to SI and people started calling me on my crap, I was scared stiff. They had my number. And I told them they were being big meanie heads and they didn't understand me. On the contrary. They knew me better than I knew myself. Why? Because they had already traveled this road.

It doesn't matter if you have known your AP for 2 or 20 years, unless you live in their home, you literally have no idea what their home life is like. At all. You just don't. All you can do is take her word for it. And it's a fact of life that cheaters lie. I lied to my AP. He lied to me. We tell each other these lies to make one another feel good. It's part of the fantasy.

You do realize that you are being tremendously hypocritical right? You demanded to know everything about your wife's affair but you cannot extend to her the same courtesy of transparency?

As long as you keep this hidden and continue with these lovey-dovey feelings for your AP, you keep the affair alive. It's a continual betrayal not only to yourself, but your wife. Your wife has every right to know what she's married to.

Good luck.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6253 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

her husband has ignored her for two years

Yeah, I was amazed to learn what my wife had been saying about me during her A, and in the months leading up to it. Had no idea I was that rotten. But shortly after D Day, I became a precious commodity to be held onto at all costs. The PRIZE as we say around here. The esteem I was held in went from the gutter to dizzying heights.

The biggest problems BS' have is the same problem that all spouses have to a certain extent - we represent real life. Which means bills, mortgages, crying babies, bratty teens, laundry, car trouble, grocery shopping, demanding jobs, bad hair days, and the alarm going off at ungodly hours of the morning. Being a husband or wife is many wonderful things, but "sexy" usually isn't one of them. At least not on a daily basis. That's why commitment is the key aspect of such a relationship.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling
PM's w/ male members only please

Posts: 1404 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
darkbeast
Member
Member # 19220
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

I can't put my finger on it, but something seems........off. Almost two different pappabear voices in the two threads. Zero remorse but, nevertheless, still comes to SI. Brushes off criticism, ignores advice.

Spidey sense is tingling.


I thought I wanted a career, but I discoved that I just like paychecks.

Posts: 2466 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Florida
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

she was in tears and I got scared and held her...she looked up and kissed me...we kissed for at least 5 minutes...
Oh, I see, you have those kind of lips that act out on their own volition. Kind of like the recent WH who said he didn't send texts to his OW, his thumbs did. It all makes sense now.

I hope that wasn't insulting, I just wanted to show you how nonsensical your statement was. Of course you made a choice and, as nik says, until you own that you won't "get it".

I am sorry you lost your courage to tell your BW. I feel she needs to know. You can't build a healthy marriage with lies and secrets between you. I can understand how scarey and hard it will be to tell. You can do it though. Many have and survived and, in fact, thrived.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9710 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Oh, boy. Choose one quote below, Pappa. Then choose to get real.

"Houston, we have a problem..."
Apollo 13

"We're gonna need a bigger boat..."
Jaws

You keep this up and I'm gonna bump my first SI post. Believe me, you DON'T want that!

Gently:
Please, take the cotton from your ears and put it in your mouth. Time to listen and learn...and put on your big boy pants.

I know. I've been there.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

I can't put my finger on it, but something seems........off. Almost two different pappabear voices in the two threads.

Boy, no kidding. I don't usually look in wayward unless a thread peek on the main page looks like something I want to read. Glad the 2 threads got put together in the same forum.

I'm out


Posts: 556 | Registered: Jun 2013
pappabear
Member
Member # 26301
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

Don't excactly know what you mean by the 2 threads...anyway I was hoping to get more BS opinions here. No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing. If I am wrong I APPOLIGIZE!!!! Never the less the cat is out the bag...all the info is out and I left out nothing. Kim is not as upset as I thought she would be which makes me worry a little. She said she understands why...she like the AP still (since we are all friends). We are all going to dinner tonight to discuss our situation (akward). My W has always been smarter than me and I think she realizes this situation no matter how wrong it was. Reading back on this thread I do see how is sounds un-remoursful; I assure you I am...dosen't always come out in text format


BH-35
WW-35
D-Day 15 August 2009
2 kids 7 and 17

Posts: 120 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Travis AFB CA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:37 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing.

And here you've accomplished that for yourself in just one post. My aren't you the overachiever.

Well, since you apparently haven't read here much you would find not comments but questions, shared experiences, difficult challenges, brainstorming through them. The posts in this forum kept me directed, supported, honest, focused. They made me feel not alone, but respected my individual situation. They challenged me to look deeper, try harder while giving me ideas of where to look and what to look for.

I was lost, angry, hurt, enraged. This forum, it's members, some now my closest friends, provided guidance and lighted my way to help me see when I was so blind by my own pain I couldn't even make out shapes.

No offense? Sir, you passed offense well before the "APPOLOGIZE". Shame on you.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:38 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

The majority of the posters on this thread are Betrayed Spouses, pappabear.

You have another thread going in the Wayward forum, too. This thread started in General, I think, and then was moved to Wayward (here). The other thread is called "can't believe I am here now".


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9710 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing

Wow. Just....wow. Pot, meet kettle.

And for the record, you received about 11 posts from BSs compared to 4-5 from WS.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 11:48 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6253 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 11:47 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)

...anyway I was hoping to get more BS opinions here. No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing.

I love this..."no offense...but I am going to say the most offensive thing possible" Brilliant!

Did you really just post this?

Are you actually here asking for advice and then calling everyone in this forum inauthentic?

The reason you are not getting responses from BS's may be because we know the the guidelines for posting on the wayward forum, and we don't want to get banned.

The advice you have received from the previous posters has been spot on. I, as a BS can't offer anything you anything more than what the other waywards have said. Their advice has been honest, observant, out of kindness, and out of personal experience.


ETA: I just went back and re-read who commented on your post. You have both BS's and Former Waywards commenting on your thread.

Good luck with your journey. I hope at some point you get honest with yourself.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 11:51 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1293 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 12:34 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing.

*speaking as a member*

After what I have read from you in the last couple of days, I can't help but feel you are talking about yourself more than anyone else here. Who are you really pointing the finger at?

You talk about your wife being okay about things... how did you feel on d-day? Do you think she might be in shock a bit? Her disposition towards you might change really quickly once it all sinks in. Her disposition towards the AP might change quickly once it all sinks in.

And what about your AP's husband... is he going out to dinner with you, too? How does he feel about all of this? Or is he still in the dark and not part of your equation?

I don't think you know what you've done here, and I don't think you know what you're getting into, which is really sad, considering you have been on the other side of betrayal before.

Keep us posted... I think you might be in for a rude awakening once everything truly hits the fan.


Posts: 7214 | Registered: Dec 2010
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

@uncertainone

My aren't you the overachiever.

I just blew coffee through my nose onto my tie. I'm sending you the cleaning bill.

@pappa: since you don't respect anyone here, why are you here? Speaking solely for myself, any apology from you wouldn't be worth the pixels it's printed on. That being said, I hope there will be a time, when your head emerges from your rectum, that will find you embracing and engaging in a respectful manner with the people here, most of whom, with precious few exceptions, are trying to get help, learn, share, grow, and become a better, safer, happier self.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

No offense but replies from FWW and FWH's are fishy to me because it seems like you guys stay here and comment on peoples posts too make yourselfs feel better about what you did or maybe are still doing
this? coming from a now WH! My response contains two words that total 7 letters and if I post it here, I will likely get banned. Instead, I will say this - that was some fucked up shit for you to say. Do you feel better about yourself now? Oh and need I remind you, none of the FWS's that have taken the time & energy to respond to you are still actively engaged in an affair - but YOU ARE.
No offense? Sir, you passed offense well before the "APOLOGIZE". Shame on you
X2 - and I don't get offended easily. Man, do I feel sorry for your wife. I can only imagine the hell you put her through when you held the sole title of BS.

[This message edited by MissesJai at 12:18 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5936 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Red  Posted: 5:42 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Let's all take a step back and let what has been written sink in. Pappabear has a lot to digest.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37247 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

PB,

I am curious as to how much you actually read the wayward forum when you were here before and why you have that opinion.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4956 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Random thoughts
Member
Member # 2959
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

So if her BH ignored her for yrs why didn't she sit down with him and say "honey I have a problem with how OUR marriage is going and feel that I'm not #1 in your eyes " and if this doesn't change we need to sit down and see where we stand" did she do that? Does any WS do that?

No we wayward don't sit down and discuss our feelings and what ever disappointments we have in the relationship, but boy can we run to the computer and place an add or flirt and engage with the cute co worker across the room.

You have to take a really good look at your actions and ask why you were willing to hurt your kids and family life for something that has a 90% of failing (a relationship with an affair partner) .

Even now your attitude is glib and condescending towards others that were making or made the wrong choices.

I can say without a doubt that I would never cheat again because I do not want to be that person ever again.


Those three words are said too much and not enough.
Chasing Cars-Snow Patrol.
FWW

Posts: 1593 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Some where in New Jersey
Topic Posts: 39