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Reconciliation
User Topic: Do you ever talk about divorce?
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

This is a mixed rant. I'm wondering if I am crazy, a spoiled brat who is never happy, or if I am making sense from the circumstances.

Whenever FWH demonstrates negative pre A behaviors I trigger hard and start thinking I have to D him to get away from the pain he has caused. Examples of these behaviors are:

1. a blank stare when I am exposing my innermost feelings or thoughts

2. getting an attitude, turning it around on me, and and refusing to communicate

3. walking out of the room and ignoring me.

Several times pre A when he acted like that I tried to explain to him how it made me feel. I would literally have to follow him around, and got angrier and angrier as he refused to communicate with me. He looked like the innocent one, and I was the crazy looking one.

He never acted like that before we M. He did it the very first time I tried to communicate negative feelings to him after we were M. He later said he was dumbfounded by my feelings and words (up till then, I guess it never occurred to him that I might ever have a problem with anything he did. He thought there was something wrong with me for having any negative feelings or opinions about him or anything he was doing.)

After Dday 2, I realized that the man I M was never real, he was hiding his real self behind the man he pretended to be, whom I FIL with and M.

I don't want to be M to the man who refused to communicate about difficult issues for our entire M, and who left the M in various ways, topping it all off with an A and asking for a D.

Yesterday I told him I am probably going to have to D, because it is the only way I see to get away from the pain, since H and his personality are my triggers.

He says he is changing. I agree that he has done some new things since the A. He has bought me a few very expensive pieces of jewelry, for example. He has bought me flowers and given me hand written cards. He has listened to me go on and on about my feelings, fears, related to the A.

What I am needing, however, is for him to be open and talk freely with me about his own brokenness and weaknesses. He rarely shares any new revelations or understandings about himself that contributed to his vulnerability to have an A and look at porn.

When I confronted him about the blank stare, he said that he is silent because he is thinking, "What does she want? Does she want me to say something? Does she want me to just listen? If I say or do the wrong thing I'll be in trouble with her."

This reminds me of what I've read about children who grow up in critical homes. They aren't accepted for who they are, and they learn to give the responses that will get them the acceptance or peace they need. His mother is a very domineering person. If she disagrees with you, she is not agressive or angry, but he has a perfected way of communicating which lets you know she disapproves. She thinks she is always right, no matter how trivial the issue, and she is always better, smarter, higher class, etc. than the person she disagrees with. I can see how growing up with a woman like that, when one is a mellow, pleasant child, as my FWH was, would affect him.

He had the blank stare from the very beginning of our M, so I don't believe that I caused it...he came with it.

I've come to believe that the reason he stares like a deer in the headlights is because
he hasn't learned how to listen to me with his heart, to be empathetic. He is all in his mind, trying to figure out the "right" response.

But I'm not his mother! I'm his wife, and equal. I don't expect agreement, I want a person who listens, and yet is their own person.

When this happens, I begin to realize he is still the same person who cheated, with the same coping and communication mechanisms. Another A looms in front of me, taunting me, saying, "It is just a matter of time until his stress builds up again." Then I begin thinking D is my only path to safety.

Thank you for reading. Any insights you have would be appreciated.

HBH

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 12:57 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Last night he told me (out of the blue...a first for him) that he is thinking about looking for a book to help him figure out why he goes on "binges" with hobbies and then drops them after a while. He said he wonders if those interests are bad, and if they cause him to neglect other people, and that he thinks he has at times.

He is not really a man to get all wrapped up in a hobby. He has no real hobbies. He must be really good at hiding it. The only two interests he had that I have thought were wasting time were playing mindfield and solitaire on the computer when we first got it back in the 90's. His consistent hobby has been keeping up with basketball players statistics. I thought he just did it here and there. It bothered me,however that he always knew the latest sports statistics, but said he didn't have time to read a book for our M, homeschooling or child rearing.

He mentioned a couple of other interests he had, which I never realized he spent too much time on...it didn't seem to affect our M, at least from my perspective.

I hope this is the first of many, many times of communicating with me. My fear is that it is just one time, he was trying to appease me, and he will not do it again unless he feels afraid I am going to leave him.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
hopefullromantic
Member
Member # 16652
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Your H sounds a lot like mine, a conflict avoider. I didn't create it, he came that way.

I wish I could tell you that the A was the impetus we needed to change all that but it was not. It did get better though. He has learned that sometimes talking things out really does make him feel better and that sometimes I am just venting about "life", not mad at him. He will bite the bullet and discuss the A if I need to but he still manages to escape if he thinks a normal conversation might lead to A talk. It's almost funny watching him steer the conversation away.

I too, feel frustrated at feeling like his mother.

We never really did "talk" about divorce (that would have been too hard for him), but yes, I did think about it for a lot of years because I wasn't seeing enough change in him. I didn't want a divorce though. The conflict avoidance had always been irritating, but not monumental until the A happened and I realized it was a symptom of his bad coping skills. Oh yeah, I have an issue with too many hours playing solitaire on the computer too. Overall though it has been a great marriage except for that nasty A!

Not only did I have to R with my H but I had to R with myself too, as I couldn't leave. The marriage was still just too good to leave, as he was remorseful and he has been very conscious about making me feel safe. I have chalked it up to an anomaly. And things are pretty good going on 7 yrs now.


It's not really a fairy tale 'till the witch is deposed and a few dragons are slain

Posts: 1768 | Registered: Oct 2007
Silentthoughts
Member
Member # 40289
Default  Posted: 5:55 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I am a ww, It sounds like i am much like your husband. It has always been very difficult for me to - first of all know what I am feeling and - secondly communicate about anything where there might be conflict. Even though I am aware, it has been difficult behavior to change! Most people's issues in relationships are caused by unresolved foo issues and need help getting resolved. At least, that is the conclusion I've come to recently.

You can't fix your m by yourself and only he can fix his issues.

[This message edited by Silentthoughts at 5:59 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


WW - early 50s (me)
BH - late 40s
3 grown children
Married 25 years
Online cyber sex dec 2010. I got caught late dec 2010. Lying and TT until full disclosure jan 2011.
In R we both are committed to staying in this M.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Aug 2013
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 6:31 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Wow hurtbuthopeful? I could have written this word for word.

Go and check out my post today talking about Avoiders. "How We Love" is the book I read that detailed both myself and my wife very accurately...via an online quiz.

It speaks to the fact that IF ... and that is a big IF.... he is an Avoider as defined within this book....he, like my wife, my actually not know how to interact with you like you want him too....like I desire my wife to interact with me. It depends on several lifetime factors, but mostly tied to their FOO. In my wifes case the Dad is an alcholic and her parents divorced during her formative years (7-17). If they never felt that intimate connection during their formative years (my wife never had a serious BF in highschool) it is apparently highly likely they lack the skill of intimate connection.

This ties into what I am witnessing through MC and IC...that my wife does desire intimacy, but has real struggles with what that looks like and how to do that. Committing adultery is a very real option for these people...as it is as far from real intimacy as you can have since the entire relationship is so secret...secrets allow Avoiders to deal with reality. It is shocking to say but I almost dont see how my wife would have gone through her life without having an affair...it almost seems inevitable now. That helps set in concrete that her affair had nothing to do with me....but it also makes me concerned about what exactly she is capable of, how soon she can get there, and if I have the fortitude to postpone the intimacy I seek. At times I feel as if I do....other times I feel exactly like you do and want to call my attorney.

So I dont think my wife is doing what you speak of in your post out of anything but lack of ability...and some pride and selfishness too...but it may be ability as the main culprit.

Now, this book and its authors contend that real intimacy can be learned later in life...but it takes a lot of work and true dedication on their part.

Long and short....Yep, can totally relate to what you posted. You are not crazy...or at least no more crazy then a lot of us dealing with this trauma.

God help us all.

p.s. To be sure my wife did NOT interact any more intimately with her AP then she did with me...and in almost every way interacted with him on an even shallower level. The reason she found it so intoxicating was it was secret and erotic, and it was also a GREAT escape from reality...a super high for an Avoider.

So this brings me some comfort...though it still sucks....for all the many reasons adultery sucks.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:35 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3669 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
whattheh
Member
Member # 40032
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

My fWH was the only one who brought up D. He would bring it up after dday when I got really angry because he thought being angry meant I wanted to D.

I consistently told him that D wasn't something I was seeking and that it made me feel like he wasn't really willing to fight for our M whenever he brought it up. Sometimes I would say "man up and put your balls back on" when he mentioned D. And I told him he didn't need to bring up D on my behalf as I was capable of making my own decisions and speaking for myself.

Looking back I think he was testing me cuz he couldn't believe Icould stay with him after his betrayal. We are doing much better now and he never brings it up.

[This message edited by whattheh at 6:34 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


BW- mid 50's (me)
fWH-late 50's
M 33 T 35
DD-Early 2013 PA 2010
In R but I have PTSD...

Posts: 545 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Dallas2
Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I actually served him papers. The funny part is I was in the car when he had to sign for them. He was shocked to say the least. He was mad at the money I spent- to bad.

Once he got the papers he did try more but a part of me had checked out of the M.

I like the Avoider name, it fits my FWH to a tee. I usually have to pin him down to get any conversation going.

You are not crazy at all. As a BS there are days I still wonder if a D isn't the right answer. Time will tell.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
OldCow18
Member
Member # 39670
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I am the girl who cried divorce. It's like my only respite when things get to be too much. When it gets too heavy, too painful, too angry, too emotional, too sad, I just throw in the towel and say that's it, I want a divorce. Down deep I know that is the only justice in all of this, yet, I wake up the next day and wonder if I want justice or happiness and the cycle begins again.


Me, BW forty something, DD & DS,
Married to WH (49) 11 years, together 16
D-Day 6.8.13

Posts: 620 | Registered: Jun 2013
krazy8516
Member
Member # 40076
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Wow hurtbuthopeful? I could have written this word for word.

Ditto.

I threatened divorce twice in two days, just after D-day. Since NC and full transparency have been established, I haven't mentioned it again. But I do experience the same problems you are with my WH, and I do often wonder if actually filing would be the only way to help him really "get it."

Honestly, I'm hoping to hell there's another way, I just haven't found it yet. We're still so early out in all this, at the moment I'm just trying to give it some time.


me: BW, 30
him: WH, 25
us: edging closer to R every day

married 2y, together 2.5y
1 beautiful daughter, 23m

"Someday soon, I'm going to put my life together; Win or lose, I'm starting over again."


Posts: 368 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Texas
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

He had the blank stare from the very beginning of our M, so I don't believe that I caused it...he came with it.

I've come to believe that the reason he stares like a deer in the headlights is because
he hasn't learned how to listen to me with his heart, to be empathetic. He is all in his mind, trying to figure out the "right" response.

I would be guilty of a blank stare as well. For me it is because I need to process it logically before I can process it emotionally. Its like thinking in english and speaking in spanish. There is a delay for translation.


Do you ever talk about divorce?
Not often and not lately, but yes, quite a few time over the last couple of years. I drew my lines in the sand and also told her if she wanted someone else to not let the door hit her in the ass. Neither of us ever expected me to say that ever, so it was kind of a wake up call for her.


I wish you peace as you work through this. You might want to consider the saying that actions speak louder than words. Maybe he is better at doing than talking? Maybe not, but I hope you find the answer.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Sorry it took me so long to get back. Busy day!

Thank you all for your responses. I was just sure I was crazy and a spoiled brat.

hopefulromantic: I too love my M more than I hate it. Deep down I don't want to D. I just get overwhelmed and his behaviors trigger me. He is really trying in many ways...sometimes just not the right ways.

blakesteel: I get what you said about them not knowing how. There is hope, if they can learn how to communicate. It just seems sometimes that he is so cut off from himself, emotions relating to his FOO and things that happened. He doesn't see where his mother was controlling while he was growing up. That is so bizarre to me...did she get that way only when I came into his life? I don't think so. He is just shutting out the painful parts of growing up with his family. He has negative memories about his step dad, but not his mom, who brought the step dad into his life, and focused on step dad while he and his brother had to cope with her D from their dad, gave them a new dad and even wanted them to change their last names!

OldCow: "and the cycle begins again."

Get me off the merry-go-round! I'm keeping it going myself!

joeboo: "For me it is because I need to process it logically before I can process it emotionally." That is basically what my H says. Only he doesn't really get to the emotional/empathetic part...he stays in the defensive/or judgemental part.

"You might want to consider the saying that actions speak louder than words. Maybe he is better at doing than talking?"

You got it. But should I give up on the talking part...I need to hear what his heart and mind are processing to know he is moving forward and growing.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
myperfectlife
Member
Member # 39801
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Blakesteele, your post is spot on. That is my WS to a "T".
Avoider.

Your H sounds a lot like mine, a conflict avoider. I didn't create it, he came that way.

This is something my WS tries to pin on ME. That my "controlling" behavior to him made him that way.
Not true. He came to me that way and I pointed out specific examples from when we first met which proved it.
I believe that my personality type is attracted to people I can "push around". I've fought doing that our whole marriage because I didn't want to be that "bitch". When I would pull back to give him room to be himself, he didn't pull up and do the things that needed to be done. When there were opportunities to be taken, he shirked the responsibilities.
He's always been one step behind, a day too late, and always, always putting out fires with lies.
Not to say he's been an evil man, or intentionally cruel. But he does not ever think ahead to consequences. He thinks backward and says "I didn't mean to do that, hurt you," etc.
On my side I know my personality at times only reinforced his lack of confidence. I am confident, a planner, see the big picture, and use foresight. He does not do any of those things.
When I would ask him for his opinion I would counter with "well what about this?" because I knew he hadn't considered it. He felt I was just disregarding his opinion.
Not the same thing, but a huge issue that continued to kill his self confidence.
I believe that most prominent characteristic of most cheaters is conflict avoidance. On the flipside their partners seem to be fairly confident and verbal.

It's really mind blowing how easily he and I fit that mold.
And very disturbing because I wonder just how much hope there is for these dynamics to change. Also, if they do change-what will be left of the marriage.
Is divorce the only answer?

[This message edited by myperfectlife at 11:29 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


I cannot be responsible for another's personal growth.
DDay#1 of a "cheatillion" 4/1/13
Divorce final 11/04/13

Posts: 452 | Registered: Jul 2013
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:31 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I talked about it a lot in the beginning and was met with the same responses.

Sounds like pretty classic conflict-aviodance. Any time the conversation gets heavy I have to fight to keep Crazz in the room.

It's something we need to go over in MC, so that's what I'd recommend. I don't think you're a spoiled brat at all - I think you're dealing with someone with a deeply ingrained flight response - and that makes it almost impossible to have clear and direct communication sometimes.

(((HBH)))


I bow to those who keep their hearts open when it is most difficult, those who refuse to keep their armor on any longer than they have to, those who recognize the courage at the heart of vulnerability. - Jeff Brown

Posts: 17327 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
PricklePatch
Member
Member # 34041
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I talk about the d word. I have realized something recently. My whole is actually incognito by his absolute inaction or opinion on things. This then allows him to say how controlling I am. I realized oddly enough after reading some fifty shades of grey the bottom has all the control. This is totally true in our case, no we don't do beam, but, I pay all the bills do the shopping make a budget, he pretends to listen, treats the atm like a lotto winner and gets posses when I say what about the bills. We are light this month your spending money is 100 dollars. I get you are so demanding its just lunch it jus Sri is its jus whatever. Dude u screwed to the plan, no I didn't. So by his inaction there has to be a responsible party and it isn't him. He is the victim of the controlling birch wife.

[This message edited by PricklePatch at 11:40 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


BS
Fwh
sorry post on my tablet

Posts: 295 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: pricklepatch
crazyblindsided
Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Yesterday I told him I am probably going to have to D, because it is the only way I see to get away from the pain, since H and his personality are my triggers.

^This is exactly how I felt today. We actually discussed D. My WH said that maybe what he is doing will never be enough. I don't know. I am really unsure right now with my emotions and I can't believe I haven't healed more in 18 months

But I am realizing my WH's behaviors are causing me to trigger.


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
Dreamland
Member
Member # 40488
Default  Posted: 12:56 AM, August 30th (Friday)

And double Ditto

Wow hurtbuthopeful? I could have written this word for word.
.. My hubby is an avoider totally. And yes he came that way too.. Alcoholic father mother who was an avoider.. Brother who is a serial cheater and they all just laughed it off... Major conflict avoiders... I on the other hand was a talker... I have said the D word many times but he has an illness I have the steady job with health insurance. And he is remorseful and trying but like your seems to avoid his true feelings. I want him to find out why now after 18 yrs of M. After he told me six years ago he wasn't interested in sex..no sex at that time before and I was at my peak i wanted him so bad but he couldn't or wouldn't some of it was his illness.. then boom now he can with the A.. Now he is interested with her.. He claims he couldn't many times.. During our HB he was amazed he could with me.. Can't tell if its BullShit or what
Anyway now he can't again and he doesn't want to talk about it. And the little blue pill is expensive and he says it doesn't always work. So we are back to pre A...no sex for me. And now I'm hitting menopause so soon it's all done. The problem is that I love him. And he probably doesn't have much time left. Ten years. You would think I would just be grateful we are together but I am too hurt too bitter and angry..
It so sad a real shame. He seems to not care and I am withering away as always. One more year. I have a senior so once she goes to school we will see how things progress.
Good luck


Me-BS 50 Him-WH 47, DD17
Together since 1993, Married 19 yrs
DDay 3/12,4/12,7/12 EA-PA OW - 25 single husband chasing bastard whore

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 1:20 AM, August 30th (Friday)

My hubby used to ask me often....do you just want me to leave....will that stop the pain??? Hahahaha....if it were just that simple hey guys?

A's are not only about fantasy but about taking the easy road. It was easier for my hubby to accept the offers he had been given from his AP far easier then coming home and working for the same thing from me. This is also why, no matter if he wanted to come back to me or not , he could never quite leave his AP even when he felt the fantasy of the A was dead.

I have never talked about D....I just talk about leaving and going back to what I gave up so many years ago to become a mom and wife. I would never divorce him......that would be the easier road for him. Painful at first because there would be a lot of money involved but then free at the end to go whatever direction he chose. Leaving without Ding is like leaving them in limbo hell. They can't get remarried, they can't do anything official....

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
Josephine01
Member
Member # 38511
Default  Posted: 2:02 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Wow, Txs T, I like the way you think.


Me, 42 BS
H, 61 WH
2 boys 19 and 15 years old
Married 24 years

Posts: 314 | Registered: Feb 2013
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 2:11 AM, August 30th (Friday)

LOLOLOL.....thank you Josephine. I guess I mostly feel like my hubby's A was the single most selfish thing he could do to me.....so why not be selfish back???

He asked me again just the other day if I wanted him to leave. My answer was very simply....if anyone is going to do the leaving around here it will be me and I won't be taking the kids with me when I go. It is high time I started focusing on my happiness since you didn't think much about it when the A started!

That comment woke him up pretty fast

I am no longer quiet about my own needs. If something is wrong I bring it up. If I am unhappy I bring it up. I am never going to be blindsided again!

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, August 30th (Friday)

myperfectlife: "This is something my WS tries to pin on ME. That my "controlling" behavior to him made him that way." I've heard that too. He says I am not "safe" to open up with. He is right that I have interrupted, and flung back things he has said in (my) angry times. However, I believe that is a convenient excuse for him to stay clammed up, and not put forth the effort (IC, reading, digging into his own FOO pain, taking another risk to bond emotionally/verbally with me.)

Generally I don't choose people I can push around, as you said, but the people (always women) who become close friends have strong personalities, strong core values, and are not afraid to express it. When we communicate it is fluid, lots of interrupting each other to add or validate each other, lots of back and forth, and lots of listening at the same time.

With H, it is me doing all the talking with him silent, and when he wants to talk, he wants me to be the same way. I must have ADD or something, because I get thoughts relating to what he is saying, and if I don't say them right then, I forget them. I've never done this, but maybe I should take notes and make all my comments at once when he is finished. Whenever we are talking and I interrupt, even to interject something related, even supportive, he gets irritated, and he shuts down. He is trying not to shut down, and I am trying to not interrupt, but it doesn't seem half as fulfilling as when I speak with a female friend. We (me and my female mentors/friends) can cover amazing amounts of ground in a short period of time without hurt feelings.

I'm not sure why my style of communication is so foreign to him (according to him.) His mother is a lousy listener (I am not) and when she decides she wants to interject, from that moment on, it is her talking, bragging about herself, or something similar. He seems to be projecting her onto me, and I am not at all like that. I want a meeting of the hearts and minds. I don't just want to have a platform to brag on myself.

Actually, sometimes I do "fish" for compliments, I have to admit. However it is not every time I open my mouth like my MIL.

Now here I am again, thinking that D is the only answer to emotional peace. I feel my heart rising to my throat, and my stomach twinging again. sigh....


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
krazy8516
Member
Member # 40076
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Now I'm confused. Everybody's "conflict avoider" WS's sound just like mine... except he's not a conflict avoider at all! At least, I don't think he is... Unless a conflict avoider can also have anger management issues??

I am realizing my WH's behaviors are causing me to trigger.

You said it, Crazy. What are our options with WS's like these??


me: BW, 30
him: WH, 25
us: edging closer to R every day

married 2y, together 2.5y
1 beautiful daughter, 23m

"Someday soon, I'm going to put my life together; Win or lose, I'm starting over again."


Posts: 368 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Texas
OldCow18
Member
Member # 39670
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Krazy, my WH has major anger management issues...and he is a conflict avoider, which means he'd rather tell a white lie than upset me. He says things he thinks he should to smooth out situations. Makes it all so much worse. But then, when he's had enough he BLOWS.


Me, BW forty something, DD & DS,
Married to WH (49) 11 years, together 16
D-Day 6.8.13

Posts: 620 | Registered: Jun 2013
krazy8516
Member
Member # 40076
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Okay, OC. That sounds like my WH.

I've seen him get very "in your face" but that's usually after varying periods of deafening silence.

Before the A, he was having a problem with something I did 2 years ago (but he didn't find out about it until the end of last year), and he held on to that shit for almost 6 months before we "talked" about it. And by talked, I mean he exploded. And that's only because I finally realized something was wrong and kept prompting him for answers. After that, I got the ILYBINILWY speech. I feel like if he had just come to me right away that whole fiasco might have been avoided.

I think I'm going to need to read up on conflict avoidence...


me: BW, 30
him: WH, 25
us: edging closer to R every day

married 2y, together 2.5y
1 beautiful daughter, 23m

"Someday soon, I'm going to put my life together; Win or lose, I'm starting over again."


Posts: 368 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Texas
crazyblindsided
Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Unless a conflict avoider can also have anger management issues??

Yes they get mad when their evading conflict doesn't work.


My WH is both conflict avoident and passive aggressive with a sprinkle of NPD. It's so wonderful to be with someone so mixed up.


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
PricklePatch
Member
Member # 34041
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Mine has anger issues as well. I still maintain he has control by not acting.


BS
Fwh
sorry post on my tablet

Posts: 295 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: pricklepatch
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 6:58 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

We just had a big fight over the blank stare last night. He looks like a deer caught in headlights. Blink, nod, breath...just don't sit there with a blank stare. It makes my anger increase by the second. I'm pouring my heart and soul out and my husband has nothing to say. Not a single word! It's beyond frustrating. I feel so alone in that moment and unsupported. He's so afraid of saying the wrong thing and making it worse. I blame his parents. His opinion never mattered. His feelings never mattered. He can't even explain what he feels half the time. I've been in therapy for 10 years so I've basically been trained to talk about feelings and analyze them. He can't let any feelings out and I can't keep any in. It's a mess.

Posts: 666 | Registered: Jul 2013
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

I'm so sorry, Scubachick. I know your frustration. Do you find the more vulnerable you are when you share feelings, the quicker and more intensly the anger rises when you realize he has that blank look? Do you feel like the blank stare is like a bucket of cold water thrown on you, or only a pretense to be listening, but only with the ears, not the heart?

Last night my H shared childhood memories. While his family never talked about their feelings, he said his mother always made sure she told him and his brother she loved them. You know, a simple ILY. He doesn't have any negative feelings about her with regard to her treatment of him. I should be happy, but I'm not. Then why doesn't he have a relationship with her beyond a long distance phone call a few times a year, she mostly talking about herself? How come she is uncapable of showing love toward our children beyond telling husband over the phone, "Tell the children I L them." She isn't even capable of telling them she L them herself, or having a conversation with them.

From his few memories, and how MIL behaves today, I believe he was very much on his own, their interest in him very superficial. When he was in sports, they watched "a few games." A few games? WTH? One of his parents should have been at every game, and only missed a few game. His brother was 2 years older and had his own friends, and his step siblings were older and all on their own. At 10, when his parents got divorced, he was on his own. How long he was on his own before that while their M disintegrated, who knows? Right away, his mother M the other man and built her life around him. He grew up in an adult centered world, where children were on the outside, expected to behave. I feel sad for that little boy. He is not that way as a father to our children. Our daughters talk about feelings. He just has a hard time talking about his own feelings.

I told him last night my earlies memories of people being gone is when I was in teh 2nd grade, and my father was in Vietnam. The war was reported, with names of those fallen, and scenes from various skirmishes, on the television. He wrote me a few letters which I read over and over, and cherished, knowing he was alive at the time he wrote them. To phone him was very expensive, and because of the time zone, I have only one vague memory of a phone call to him during his year in vietnam. I missed him so much.

My teenage brother went to college when we lived overseas, and I wrote him letters, but got none back. I loved him so much. Tears want to come as I write this.

Them my dad went to Korea for a year. I was older by then, and he was an angry, physically abusive father by then, but I missed him. Last, he went to Iran for my senior year. I really wanted a father.

Because of my experience growing up, and seeing my own mother's loneliness and sadness, I didn't want to marry anyone in the armed services. I respected and appreciated what they did for our country, but I knew I could not endure the separation. I went on one date with a Cadet from the Air Force Academy, but I sabotaged it on purpose by doing something stupid, so he would never call again. I know, I should have been honest and told him I didn't want to see him because I didn't want to FIL with him, but I thought it would hurt his feelings, so if I could make him not like me he'd think it was his idea.

When I M my H, he had career ideas that would allow us to be together. The year before the A, he got a job 5 hours from home and he came home about on a monthly basis. I was so hurt he moved away and left me to raise and homeschool our children, and take care of maintaining a house all by myself. Then he ended it with the A, asking me for a D.

So here I am, just waiting for him to leave, like every man in my life did, and he also did. He should just get it over with, so I can make a new life. Maybe I should initiate the break up, instead of acting like that stupid highschool girl who acted silly so the Cadet would break up with me. The only problem is that I still L him, under all my hurt, frustration, disgust and fear.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

HBH - thanks for starting the thread I can identify with what everyone has written. It's just been in the last week that I've finally realized that my WH is conflict avoidant and how that has exhibited itself over the years (and does today).

And Prickly - I identify with this SO much too.

So by his inaction there has to be a responsible party and it isn't him. He is the victim of the controlling birch wife.

This thread and everyone's responses to it has been so timely and such an eye opener for me.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
myperfectlife
Member
Member # 39801
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Yes, conflict avoiders often have anger management issues. Mine definitely does!
I agree that they have control by not making decisions.
This is something which drives me crazy.
I've told WS often that he has had ALL the control in this situation. I have none.
He is trying not to shut down, and I am trying to not interrupt, but it doesn't seem half as fulfilling as when I speak with a female friend. We (me and my female mentors/friends) can cover amazing amounts of ground in a short period of time without hurt feelings.

We have the exact same dynamic. Usually its because what he is saying is blaming me for something for which I don't feel responsible. I interrupt to defend myself because if I wait until the end he doesn't get it.
When I do interrupt him (and even sometimes after he's entirely done speaking) he will scream at me "I WASNT FINISHED TALKING!! WILL YOU LET ME FINISH FOR ONCE!"
My therapist has been working with me on me always saying "I understand what you're saying, BUT..."
I get that I should validate his feelings. I get that.
However (but!lol) does that mean I have to be in a marriage where I don't get to voice my opinions? Or defend myself against inaccurate facts?
When he says " You say that I have to go NC with her to stay married but that's your opinion."
That's not an opinion dumbass.
It's a fact. I won't stay if you don't go NC. That's not blackmail, that's a personal choice I have made for my life.
He is in IC and "working on" standing up to people. He is always white lying and telling people what they want to hear because he doesn't want anyone to think bad of him or be mad at him or hate him.
I am the total opposite-honest to a fault and have lost friends over it.
He cheated. I didn't.
I'd rather be me.


I cannot be responsible for another's personal growth.
DDay#1 of a "cheatillion" 4/1/13
Divorce final 11/04/13

Posts: 452 | Registered: Jul 2013
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

So by his inaction there has to be a responsible party and it isn't him. He is the victim of the controlling birch wife.
Only I would say, by his inaction, there is no responsible party. His W is angry and controlling over things that either don't matter in the long run, or that matter and he can't (or won't) anything about.

I agree that they have control by not making decisions.
This is something which drives me crazy.
Yes. I don't want to be the one making all the decisions and I don't want to look crazy either...hence this thread.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 2:00 AM, September 1st (Sunday)


I'm so sorry, Scubachick. I know your frustration. Do you find the more vulnerable you are when you share feelings, the quicker and more intensly the anger rises when you realize he has that blank look? Do you feel like the blank stare is like a bucket of cold water thrown on you, or only a pretense to be listening, but only with the ears, not the heart?
I feel like he's ignoring me when he does that. To me, ignoring someone is one the meanest things you can do to someone. It says I care so little about you and what you have to say that I'm not even going to bother responding. When his family gets upset with one another, they just stop talking for a few days and then boom...everything is fine. Like if you don't talk about the problem, it will go away. It doesn't go away. It sits just below the surface and builds up.
I grew up without a father so I understand what it's like to have that hole that can never be filled. I always wondered what it must feel like to have a dad that protects you. Instead I got a dad that I had to protect myself from. Are you and your brother close now as adults? How did your husband react when you shared all of those painful memories with him?

Posts: 666 | Registered: Jul 2013
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 2:25 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

My husband hates to argue. We didn't fight much before the EA but now it seems like it's all we do anymore. He gets so discouraged by it. To me, Fighting is a form a communication and as long as we keep communicating, we can make progress. He said the strangest thing to me last night. He said "how can two people still love each other if they are fighting and saying mean things to each other for days/weeks at a time" I said "the same way a husband and wife can still love each other even though he just betrayed her with another woman".

Posts: 666 | Registered: Jul 2013
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

Scubachick, You nailed it.
He said the strangest thing to me last night. He said "how can two people still love each other if they are fighting and saying mean things to each other for days/weeks at a time" I said "the same way a husband and wife can still love each other even though he just betrayed her with another woman".
It's not rocket science. It's called marriage: not giving up even though you are hurt more than you ever thought you could be. Some spouses have never heard of "for better or for worse"


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

Are you and your brother close now as adults? How did your husband react when you shared all of those painful memories with him?
We got back in touch after many years, but he has always been terrible about keeping in touch. Now we don't have any contact at all.

When I told my H those feelings he did apologize (again) for what he did.

Last night I apologized for being so...I couldn't put a word on it....lately. He filled in, "triggery," then he said it wasn't my fault. Then we had some great HB!

We're getting along better, I'm over the triggers (for now) and am hopeful again.

When his family gets upset with one another, they just stop talking for a few days and then boom...everything is fine. Like if you don't talk about the problem, it will go away. It doesn't go away. It sits just below the surface and builds up.
Same as my H's family. Only problem is, it doesn't build up...they just keep doing this over and over, never talking about feelings, looking the other way, never asking the "hard" questions, and making excuses for each other. I'd be miserable growing up in a family like that. I need emotional connection going in both directions.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
StepAside
Member
Member # 29826
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, September 2nd (Monday)

Unless a conflict avoider can also have anger management issues??

Yes. His multiple A's were his way of expressing his anger, he admits they were the ultimate f*ck you to me, goes along nicely with his passive-aggressive, sociopathic tendancies, personality disorder, and ingrained FOO issues.

We are talking D now...or wait, *I* am talking, he is doing the 'blank stare' or the clenched face, or the classic word salad (talking in circles to avoid any resolution for me on the topic) his refusal to interact, or make a decision is his ‘control’, he will get to preserve his 'victim' status to the crazy controlling wife. Poor dear. It should help with recruiting and grooming his next cheerleader/fan. I guess I'm helpful like that.

I sound bitter, it is too much work to be angry and bitter, and I'm looking forward to the freedom from carrying this load of sh*t. Whether that comes in the form of D or S or even R, I'm moving forward.


Me 48yrs, king of douchebagastan- 50yrs STD infected bankrupt NPD sociopathic drunk thief
countless A's, he is a predator that targets losers like himself
Last Dday 04/12/2010-Divorcing if/when his cumdumpsters lend him some $ or balls to file

Posts: 1517 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Ingersoll Ontario
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, September 2nd (Monday)

word salad (talking in circles to avoid any resolution for me on the topic)
I forgot this part. The other side of the blank stare is the disguised non-answer.

I didn't recognize the word salad/non answer for the first 22 years of our M. I'd ask a Q, he'd respond, and hours, or weeks later I would realize he hadn't answered the question or committed to anything, he just said enough to let himself off the hook!

Me: "Honey, do you think we could ____?"
Him: "That's an idea."

Child: "Daddy could we_____?"
Daddy: "That sounds like a possiblity."

Then it never gets brought up H again.

Of course it is an idea. Of course it is a possiblity. But are you interested, but are you going to contribute to turn it into a reality?

After reading about PA behavior, it only takes me a minute or two to recognize the non answer, or detour. Once I realize the conversation has been derailed or detoured by his non-answer or sideways answer, I address his non answer as not being what I was talking about, and re-ask the question. He sometimes gets angry because he feels his responses are being controlled, and to some degree they are: they have to be relevant to the question or topic, and not disguised to make them look like an answer when they aren't really related to the question or topic.

Another thing: not wanting to take the blame for a negative decision.

Yesterday H and I were talking about a dismantled playset we have since we moved. (Our youngest are 11, 13, 16, and they still would play on it...really.)

He said he wanted to sell the slides and use the wood for other things. Our youngest was listening and I could see she was really sad about it not being rebuilt. We have no yard at our new place. It is on a desert mountainside. There is no where to play, no shade, only goat heads, tumbleweeds, and dirt. The house is really nice inside, and that is where our children and I spend most of our time, or we go to activities at other places.

I told DD in front of H, "I don't agree. This is Daddy's idea." There were a few minutes of silence as we moved the pieces of the slide together for selling. Then Daddy began talking about rebuilding the playset with the swings and platform putting an animal enclosure under the platform where her and her sister could play with their guinea pigs. He still wants to sell the slides, which is fine, since our girls are getting too big for them. The swings, if they get rebuilt, are great even for adults, being about 12 feet tall.

That would be really nice....if it ever got done. My thought, after being M to him for 23 years, is that he was just trying to save face in front of our youngest, and it will not be done...unless he reads this post and he wants to prove me wrong, so he can be right. But if he reads that last statement, he will not want to do it because he will want to do the opposite of what I think he will.

sigh. It's like the chinese water torture. A name should be invented for it: Them: "Let's play with people's heads using words, so we don't have to really say what we mean, and always look good in everyone's eyes...that is until they figure out that they can't really believe what they hear coming from my mouth is the truth..."

I think my H desperately wants love. When things are going well, and are on his terms, he seems very happy. But eventually, he begins being slightly aloof from me. He doesn't do this with the children, and I'm glad for that. There is a part of him that doesn't want me to know him deeply, or connect with me. He instinctively keeps me at arm's length emotionally, and intellectually. This could go on forever. It is I who always brings things to a head, and starts the wars.

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 11:06 AM, September 2nd (Monday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Topic Posts: 36