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User Topic: Need Perspective
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Concerned  Posted: 10:13 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Hi all.

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Background first.
In 2009 for a six month period I had a ONS with two prostitutes, dated an OW, carried on like a single man(went to bars, got drunk, flirted with women etc.) while working overseas. I also viewed porn during most of our marriage despite my BS's strong objection to doing so.

I have an issue that I would appreciate the wise people here at SI giving me their perspective on.

Currently the journey towards starting reconciliation has stalled(We have been in limbo since Dday).
My BS wants me to make her feel special by taking her on dates & generally being romantic. My problem is that aside from being way outside my comfort zone,(I have never been romantic) I also want something. My BS maintains that I should be willing to do anything she wants without expectation of receiving anything in return.

Here's the thing, I want out of the 'friend zone'i.e. I want a complete marriage not a 'room mate agreement'. It has been three and half years since we have been physically intimate(HB ended a couple of months after Dday, December 2009).

We have discussed the situation on numerous occasions, always ending with an expectation that I have to do more to make her want me. Recently during a discussion on the subject my BS gave me the gift of honesty in that she admitted she would "rather masturbate than have sex with me", which is apparently what she does when she has the urge.

Here is my problem, the honest revelation from my BS kinda hurt, a lot. It's something I am struggling mightily to get past.
When I express my feelings to my BS I get "your feelings don't matter, I am the one in pain, I am the one who has been devastated by your actions", I can't fault the logic of that, even though that in itself hurts.

I suppose I'm getting a taste of the total rejection I served up to my BS four years ago (this Karma stuff sucks).

Unfortunately it has taken me back to a mindset I thought I was completely over, you know the one, "I'll never be able to do enough", "it's no use, she'll never get over it", "I should just give up and pull the plug" etc.


Before the question is asked. "What have you done to make your BS feel safe?"

1. Transparency - access to all devices & passwords
2. Honesty - stopped lying, told her everything, don't keep any secrets
3. Stopped looking at porn
4. Changed jobs so I never travel outside of our city
5. Did a timeline
6. Put GPS tracking on my phone
7. Answered all questions regardless of how many times they were asked
8. Stopped being defensive during discussions
9. Took full responsibility for my choice to cheat
10. Apologise randomly even when my BS is not visibly upset.
11. Read SI daily to get insights and motivation.

There's more, but you get the drift. Has it been enough? Clearly not, since she still has not made a decision to reconcile.

I should also add, the things I have done to change my thought processes and make myself safe and make my BS feel safe have taken time, it has been a slow process (I used to think I was an independent thinker, the reality is I'm just plain stubborn) and my BS has been very patient.

So the question at last. Can anyone give me a clue, an insight, a mechanism, anything to get past this feeling of utter rejection, get back on track and do what my BS wants without getting what I want from her?
Or is it simply 'swallow a cup of cement and harden the hell up, sunshine. Just do it'

Thanks for reading.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Hello, and welcome to SI, SlowUptake.

Normally I try to point new members to the Healing Library in the upper left hand corner, but it sounds like you have already been here for quite some time, and I'm sure you have found that resource.

I can feel the pain in your post.

To me, it sounds like you are doing all of the right things to be supportive of your wife's healing.

One thing I do notice missing from your list is MC, or marriage counseling. Lack of intimacy would be a perfect issue to bring up in an MC setting, in an environment that is safe to both you and your wife. Is MC an option for you?

Another thing to keep in mind is that you have options as well. You are not obligated to stay in a sexless marriage.

Anyway... just wanted to welcome you, and give you a bit of perspective based upon the story you have provided. I think you'll find a lot of help and knowledge here to help you through!

Take care.


Posts: 6745 | Registered: Dec 2010
mysticpenguin
Member
Member # 38839
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I don't think I am qualified to advise you. I just wanted to say I relate and know how much the rejection hurts. You sound a lot like my WH in terms of type of infidelity, except he's the one who is rejecting me.

There is a thread in the I Can Relate forum for spouses of people who are


Betrayed

Posts: 306 | Registered: Mar 2013
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Thank you for the welcome LosferWords & mysticpenguin.
I must admit I was a more than a little apprehensive about posting as I'm not into 'this sort of thing'.

@LosferWords.
We tried MC a few months after Dday, but my BS felt that the MC was concentrating too much on marital issues & not enough on my cheating. So we only went to one session. I agreed at the time but now I'm not so sure.

At the moment I believe it's a no go as my BS does not acknowledge there's anything wrong.
She maintains "Plenty of good marriages are celibate"

@mysticpenguin.

Thank you for your support. I feel for you. At least my BS has the justification of what I did to her, you however did nothing to deserve this situation.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
soconfusednow
Member
Member # 40078
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

What types of things make her feel loved? My H & I read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. It gave us insight on what made the other on feel loved.


D-Day January 2013
prior EA in the 90's
me 50
WH 52
NC-several
last broken NC 7/2013 (hopefully)
Married 29 years
2 kids
Want to believe it's over, but is it really? Will I ever trust again?

Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 11:30 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

What types of things make her feel loved? My H & I read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. It gave us insight on what made the other on feel loved.

We have done the "The Five Love Languages" online quiz. Her love languages are acts of service & words of affirmation.
The acts of service I perform for her don't seem to have any effect although that's not why I do them & the words of affirmation fall on deaf ears since as she admits she doesn't believe a word I say (consequence of cheating).

I randomly buy her flowers and other small things/treats while I'm out and about as she has told me that small gestures like that let her know I'm thinking of her.

Thanks for the input.

ETA: My love language apparently is physical affection. How ironic.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 11:35 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 11:50 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

What has your BW done to heal herself?


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
stilllovinghim
Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 12:14 AM, August 30th (Friday)

^^^^THIS X2^^^^

Also, one session of MC is not enough to say, "okay I quit" unless shit got weird. Maybe she gave up before even trying. Perhaps IC (Individual Counseling) for you each first then MC later.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 12:31 AM, August 30th (Friday)

What has your BW done to heal herself?

From my perspective, not much. But then I don't get to set the time frame do I.
From her perspective, I don't know. All I know is I have been told I have to make amends & do the heavy lifting. So far I seem to be failing.

Also, one session of MC is not enough to say, "okay I quit" unless shit got weird. Maybe she gave up before even trying. Perhaps IC (Individual Counseling) for you each first then MC later.

To be fair at the time she was dealing with my cranium still partially ensconced in my rectum, so she wasn't in a receptive place emotionally.

She would agree IC for me, not for her. I am resistant to do IC, not something I'm comfortable with, but if things don't progress shortly I'll have to give it a go just to be sure I tried everything.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 12:39 AM, August 30th (Friday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
stilllovinghim
Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 12:37 AM, August 30th (Friday)

As the addage goes, "It takes two."

Yes, you need to do some heavy lifting I agree. However, your W doesn't seem healthy. Not by a long-shot and I'm talking not only post-A but pre-A issues as well.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 12:50 AM, August 30th (Friday)

As the addage goes, "It takes two."

We have 'discussed' this very addage. Her stance is "I'm not ready yet, you have to do more."

However, your W doesn't seem healthy. Not by a long-shot and I'm talking not only post-A but pre-A issues as well.

I have recently started to think this may be the case. But then again who am I to judge, I'm not exactly the yardstick for what's healthy as evidenced by my bad choices.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
stilllovinghim
Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 12:57 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Okay then, you work on yourself. You can only fix you anyway. She can only fix herself. You both, together, fix the M.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 1:02 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Is your BW happy with the current situation?

I can hear that you are not.

As someone earlier posted, you have to decide if this is the marriage you want.

Yes, we all made horrible fucked up choices. That doesn't mean you give up our ability to choose what is right for you forever.

When she says you have to do more, have you asked what more means to her?

Right now you are choosing to stay in what (from the outside looking in, at least based on what you have said) a dysfunctional relationship. What are unwilling to do to try and make it work?


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:11 AM, August 30th (Friday)

If it's OK, I want to address what you said about her wanting romantic dates and you wanting sex. I think everyone's already asked good questions on MC and other things.

When HB stopped, was there a reason why she didn't want to have sex anymore? Does she have mind movies about the sex you had in your A's? Does she feel insecure sexually and compare herself to your APs? Or insecurities over the porn? When did you stop watching porn? Was this something you two talked about after it stopped?

Could it be that she's lost a feeling of specialness about sex and now is hesitant to be intimate without it? Can you two try to build some of it back? Maybe being romantic can help some of that. You say that it's outside of your comfort zone... What kinds of things did you and she do when you first began dating, when you first met? What did you find special about your wife? It doesn't necessarily have to be a love language thing or whatever - just taking the time to connect with each other, help both of you feel safe and have the opportunity to support each other.

I hate to ask this - what kinds of things did you do with the OW who you dated? Was it the same stuff you did with your wife or different? Are there things that are only shared between you and your wife, that you never shared with the APs? It might help her to know what things are just yours.

You might have already covered all this, but doesn't hurt to ask, right? Welcome to SI. I hope we can help.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.


Posts: 3902 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Does she have mind movies about the sex you had in your A's?

Yes, she does. After much resistance for a long time from me, at her insistance I told her the gory details of the ONS.
I accept she had a right to know. I believe the knowledge traumatised her further.

Does she feel insecure sexually and compare herself to your APs?

Yes, very much so. My actions have destroyed her self esteem. I can't seem to get it back for her.

Or insecurities over the porn? When did you stop watching porn?

She views watching porn alone as another form of cheating. I ignored her requests to stop viewing it for a very long time. I haven't looked at porn since HB ended (we would watch porn together during HB).
While my porn viewing wasn't an addiction as such, in my case I do think it was the first step on the slippery slope of giving myself permission to cheat.

Was this something you two talked about after it stopped?

We have discussed it in the context of it being the first step to me allowing my bad choices.

Could it be that she's lost a feeling of specialness about sex and now is hesitant to be intimate without it?

Yes and yes again. What I can do about it, I have no clue.

What kinds of things did you and she do when you first began dating, when you first met? What did you find special about your wife? It doesn't necessarily have to be a love language thing or whatever - just taking the time to connect with each other, help both of you feel safe and have the opportunity to support each other.

We did not date in the traditional sense. We met each other as members of a young persons social/community service club.
All our social time together while courting was as part of a group setting. I never had to put any effort into organising 'dates'.

I hate to ask this - what kinds of things did you do with the OW who you dated? Was it the same stuff you did with your wife or different? Are there things that are only shared between you and your wife, that you never shared with the APs? It might help her to know what things are just yours.

My dates with the OW were basic dinner dates. My BS is triggered badly by going out to dinner with me as a consequence, so dinner dates are not a viable option. I have to learn to be creative.

Thank you for all your respones, it has given me much to think about.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Yes, very much so. My actions have destroyed her self esteem. I can't seem to get it back for her.

That's a two-parter. While she must rebuild her own self-esteem, you can also do a lot of things that are supportive. If there are sexual things you never did with the APs, if/when you guys resume intimacy, maybe it can help if you focus on doing those things at first. Things that don't have associated mind movies with them. Build slowly. Remind her what's special just between you two sexually. Or, instead of going for physical intimacy right away, maybe talk to her more about her mind movies? Maybe talking through them again can help, especially if you can identify together what the biggest triggers are, acknowledge them, and then think together of how to overcome them.

My dates with the OW were basic dinner dates. My BS is triggered badly by going out to dinner with me as a consequence, so dinner dates are not a viable option. I have to learn to be creative.

Hmm. What about going out for breakfast or lunch? Subtle difference, but it might help. What's dinner usually like at home? Is it relaxing or tense? Takeout or homecooked? Just you two or kids?

Do you two ever go on walks together? Or do you two like to celebrate holidays? Are you two still interested in the community service club that you two met at? Or was there a hobby that lit both of you up?

I'm focusing on those things because they seem doable, and they're specific. Everyone else made good points about the underlying need to go to MC and otherwise work on deeper communications. Her hurt is understandable. At the same time, if she winds up feeling stuck in the pain, then it's hard to heal. Has she indicated whether she feels in limbo or not? I can see you do, and it sounds like a very hard time right now. Has she said that this is something she might never overcome, or has she expressed hope?

What are you doing to work on yourself? Not the marriage, but just yourself? What are your goals right now?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 5:44 PM, August 30th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.


Posts: 3902 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Sorry, had another question about physical intimacy: are there other ways you guys are physically intimate - kissing, hugging, cuddling, back or foot rub, just bumping against each other when you're near each other? That's something else that can help build comfort, maybe. Build slowly.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.


Posts: 3902 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, August 30th (Friday)

I think SH has given you some good ideas.

This though concerns me,

"My actions have destroyed her self esteem. I can't seem to get it back for her."

You don't really think that you can give her back her self esteem do you? That is something that must come from within.

I think that is why some of us have asked what your BW is doing to heal herself. You can't fix her.

You can do many things to support her, but she has to do work too.

Does that make sense?


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
mysticpenguin
Member
Member # 38839
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Your BW believes "many good marriages are celibate." That may be true, but as in any marriage, the union is only healthy if both partners are in agreement on the main issues, including sex.

3.5 years is a long time, and since your love language is physical, I am sure this must be painful for you. Have you communicated this clearly to her, as well as the fact that a celibate marriage is not what you want?

She may not be fully healed yet. Or infidelity may be a dealbreaker for her. But you can't heal FOR her. It sounds like you are doing what she asks of you. Beyond doing that and healing yourself, there is nothing you can do.

Unless you are willing to live in a celibate marriage, I really think it is time for some last ditch effort. I would advise counseling - either individually for each of you or marriage counseling, maybe even sex counseling, and ultimately drawing up a list of boundaries. What are you willing to accept, and for how long, and what happens if nothing changes in X number of months or years.

Also, do you think you could suggest that your wife join here?

Best wishes for both of you.


Betrayed

Posts: 306 | Registered: Mar 2013
scaredyKat
Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 12:32 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

May I say that I probably feel EXACTLY as your wife does? You chose other women over her, at a time when she was younger, more attractive than she is now, you chose to sleep with OW who were even YOUNGER. How can she ever compare? How can she ever believe that you really want HER, and that she isn't just the only available body now that you have decided to be faithful?

I'm not saying that any of this is good. She is SCARED TO DEATH. Intimacy is all in the head, and your infidelity has made it very hard for her to let you into her head.

IC might work. Couples books on regaining intimacy might work. Time might work. Your constant, consistent reassurance will surely help.

But this is a tough trauma to overcome when you are cheated on, especially for an older woman.


Me-BS-60
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3458 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 4:38 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

My BS maintains that I should be willing to do anything she wants without expectation of receiving anything in return.

4 years into limbo? 3.5 years no physical intimacy? I'm trying to get a handle on what you're describing. I'm going to armchair quarterback here, and may be off the mark.

1) all the romance and romantic gestures in the world on your part won't work. She's set up "R" to fail, consciously or otherwise.

2) deep down she is, in either a calculating or possibly subconscious way, expressing anger and revenge at you. You ripped her heart out. So she gets to string you along and make you a trained monkey in the dysfunctional circus your marriage has become.

3) this allows her to avoid addressing herself, and healing her for her, because she is so afraid and in so much pain.

4) and she has allowed a sense of righteous indignation to excuse being stuck and basically wanting to watch the marriage die. You stand by your "marital plant" with a watering can that is at least partially filled by your efforts to change and be safe for her. And she won't allow you to pour the water on. But she does expect you to keep going out to the well and bringing more buckets of water in to pile on the floor next to the dying, parched plant. Her "marital martyrdom" means the marriage she feels you've killed will be all your fault when it does fail/die.

5) no sex, in her mind, accomplishes two things. Withholds/punishes you for the very act you engaged in to kill the marriage. And dares/ challenges you to NOT go out and do it again which would, again, justify her detachment from you and the marriage.

I may be way off base. I am no counselor. YMMV. And most definitely IMHO.

These are just my impressions from reading this thread, and they may or may not be applicable, right, or helpful, but I did want to share them as they are my gut impressions. I am not blaming her for your affair, or excusing you for initially ripping your marital plant out of the ground, roots and all.

I feel sad and concerned for you both, and your marriage. And more so for her.

JD

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 6:57 AM, August 31st (Saturday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

My BS wants me to make her feel special by taking her on dates & generally being romantic. My problem is that aside from being way outside my comfort zone,(I have never been romantic)

Are you in a stalemate? You will not try any romantic dates until she agrees to sex?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6092 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

I do agree that perhaps another go of MC should be looked at. ONE session is not enough. ANd perhaps some IC as well.

Without MC and IC for both of us our R would not be where it is.

My therapist also did show me that I needed to begin to help myself heal and not ONLY rely on by WS. At some point, I had to put in effort too. Sure I could blame him over and over and over and just sit in my pity and do nothing, or I could take an active role in addition to him and THAT is when true healing for me finally began.

My husband isn't very "romantic" either. But I desperately needed him to be. To put as much effort into me as he did into his affairs (not that they were romantic, they weren't but as much effort he took to work at them). I asked him to please try to plan some dates. It had NOTHING to do with money, I didn't need extravagant, I just need EFFORT. The first date he planned was a hike at a park I like with a picnic. I loved it.

What I needed was emotional intimacy from him. I can not have sexual intimacy without emotional intimacy. Especially because he's a recovering sex addict and he acted out with me for years.

As for self esteem, every BS goes through that. It's very difficult to climb out of that hole. My husband had 4 AP's. He has said it was never about looks, but still. I've seen pictures of them all. I analayze EVERYTHING. THey were Hispanic (except one) and I'm not. I made the mistake of asking once if they were tighter/looser. Well his LTA of over 2+ years was tighter, even though she had 3 kids. I should have never asked because I can't get that out of my head. I asked if he liked that more and he's said no, but I don't know that I believe that. SO it's difficult to just push that aside.

It's taken...therapy for me. A lot of self work. And, a lot of trust in what my husband says about me, which is the hardest thing ever. It's difficult for me to believe him when he says I'm beautiful or sexy. Yet I have to remind myself he does feel that way. He wouldn't just say it.

Honestly try to discuss MC again, even if she won't go, maybe go to IC for yourself. ALso, just plan some dates. Simple doesn't mean bad. Yet it shows EFFORT.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

I think at ANY age the trauma is there. I mean I'm only 36, but my husband slept with a woman 10 years younger and one of his intended AP's was even younger than that (by 15 years). I can tell you certainly it was a blow to my self esteem. I've had five kids, multiple abdominal surgeries to health issues. I can say for certain my body is not nearly as nice as someone that much younger than me. It hurt.

Time helps heal, yes. I agree. But how MUCH time? Of course healing takes years, but I don't know that it's fair to either party to completely have zero physical intimacy dictated by one spouse and say "Hey, lots of marriages are like this."


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

SlowUptake, my WH did almost the exact same things you did! He used to travel for work, and would find women on dating sites and Craigslist to hook up with. He also had sex with a prostitute he found on Backpage.

He has also been doing the same stuff you have since DDay -- transparency, honesty, joined SI with me, willing to do MC and IC, also attends SAA meetings and reads the books on SA. We are only 2 1/2 months out from DDay, but the stuff he did REALLY hurts. I think what she is doing is part of her own coping mechanism; she's trying not to let herself ever be that vulnerable to you again. That being said, she isn't doing anything to heal herself, just cover up the pain.

She is also perhaps very insecure about herself, and especially about having sex with you. I know I have asked my WH how I "measure up" to his sexual trysts. He tells me they were horrible, that I'm worlds better, on and on...but if I was so much better, why would he have felt the need to go out there and do it in the first place? Something about me just wasn't fulfilling enough to him. That may be how she's feeling right now. Yes, even 3 1/2 years later.

I do agree that she needs to do something to heal herself, but prepare yourself in case her healing involves leaving you altogether. I know that's something I have thought of MANY times since DDay.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 35
Married 5 years, together 7 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as January 2014

"One is not tempted by that he does not want."


Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Hi all

@JustDesserts

I have unfortuneatly entertained these conclusions at times myself, but other things remind me that in all other aspects of our marriage my BS is a kind & caring person. I mean how many wives get out of bed an hour before they have to, every week day morning to make & pack their husband's lunch (not because I'm incapable) just because she cares for me. This is but one example.
(They are awesome lunches by the way, the envy of my coworkers) .

I should also point out that I'm not anywhere near the perfect remorseful WS.
Many of the things I do to help my BS heal have taken a very long time to happen. There are things my BS wants me to do that I have not done.

Are you in a stalemate? You will not try any romantic dates until she agrees to sex?

We are at a stalemate. It's not agreeing to sex that I want, given her mind movies, fears, & disgust I realise that would be unrealistic. What I would like is a committent to work on it, i.e. actions to slowly build up to it.
We have discussed this, but we don't seem to be able to reach an agreement on a plan.

I must at this point correct an ommission on my part.
About a year & half ago we did try to restart our sex life.
After trying a few times I couldn't continue. The problem was mine,I couldn't cope with the fact that she was 'faking it till she made it'. It felt like I was raping her.
At the time I was very insensitve in communicating my reason for stopping.
I think I said something like "This isn't going to work, it's like having sex with a blow up doll"
My idiotic comment lowered her self esteem even further.
It is understandable that she is hesitant to try again.


What I am lacking is the motivation to continue without some indication in the form of actions on her part that things will get better. This is what I struggle with.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Many of the things I do to help my BS heal have taken a very long time to happen. There are things my BS wants me to do that I have not done.

What was/is your motivation for doing these things? Is it just because she wants you to?

If she backs off on her requests, would you then stop your efforts?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6092 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

I do agree that she needs to do something to heal herself, but prepare yourself in case her healing involves leaving you altogether. I know that's something I have thought of MANY times since DDay.

I am prepared I think. I let go of the outcome a while back.
Even though I realise 'not divorcing' is a decision, I have asked my BS on more than one occasion to please make a decision one way or another, start R or S&D.


What was/is your motivation for doing these things? Is it just because she wants you to?

Very good question.
In the beginning and for too long a time I struggled with consistancy, it was all about compliance to get out of the shitstorm and make it go away.

My BS says that for about the last 8 months she has seen a change from compliance to remorsefulness.
I think it has been longer, but at the end of the day it's how she feels about my efforts that's important.
I'm still a work in progress though.

If she backs off on her requests, would you then stop your efforts?

I don't think so. Most of what I do, while starting out as compliance has become "it's just what I do", they require no conscience effort.

One thing that does require conscience effort is random apologies for my past actions. The frequency of my efforts in this regard seem to oscilate wildly. I'm working on it.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
scaredyKat
Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

"This isn't going to work, it's like having sex with a blow up doll"

Oh, my. BTDT. Except I was told, necrophilia. Can you blame her for not wanting to be humiliated this way? IDK what the answer is. Tons of gentleness? Brutal honesty and abject apologies for your insensitivity?

For me, I would love to be able to get past this. But there have been other times that my SAFWH has been cruel, unrelated to sex. I don't trust him in or out of bed. Could that be true of you? I have investigated various marriage programs that build emotional and then physical intimacy, but haven't found one that seems right.

Let me know if you figure it out, I'll pass it on. PM me if you want...


Me-BS-60
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3458 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:14 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Most of what I do, while starting out as compliance has become "it's just what I do", they require no conscience effort.

That is very cool.

Have you ever tried romance with no expectation of sex? Even during your courtship?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6092 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

We tried MC a few months after Dday, but my BS felt that the MC was concentrating too much on marital issues & not enough on my cheating. So we only went to one session. I agreed at the time but now I'm not so sure.

I have not read all of the responding posts but this statement from you stood out to me.....

A's are always based on something be it issues relating only the WS or issues in a marriage that left the WS open to other options.

What your comment made me feel is that your wife does not feel in any way she has any part of your A associated with marriage woes. To me it is like she feels this is 100% a piece of your DNA that has nothing to do with her or your marriage.

How do you feel about that? Is that a correct statement?

In most cases there was something really missing in a marriage to cause an A. I will admit in my own marriage there was a horrible lack of intimacy be it physical or mental as well as underlying issues that both of us help from the other spouse.

MC does look at the total package.....what is she afraid of????

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

for a six month period I had a ONS with two prostitutes, dated an OW, carried on like a single man(went to bars, got drunk, flirted with women etc.) while working overseas. I also viewed porn during most of our marriage despite my BS's strong objection to doing so.

While my porn viewing wasn't an addiction as such, in my case I do think it was the first step on the slippery slope of giving myself permission to cheat.

SU: Wow, your story sounds nearly identical to mine except for a few differences. I hurt my poor BS in many of the same ways. I'm still working on convincing her that R is worth the effort. I think a lot of the responses have some good points. I would like to offer up some helpful insight since our situations are very similar.

My BS wants me to make her feel special by taking her on dates & generally being romantic. My problem is that aside from being way outside my comfort zone,(I have never been romantic) I also want something. My BS maintains that I should be willing to do anything she wants without expectation of receiving anything in return.

This is something I am working on as well. For 6 years, I was not fully committed to our relationship. My wonderful BS was willing to let her guard down, love me wholly and truly for who I was, and I took advantage of her feelings. There were times I did loving and nice things for my BS, but on the whole I was very selfish and detached. Instead of being flirty and romantic with my loving BS, i put those efforts on other people at various times during our relationship. So one of my "life changes" I am making is working on courting my wife and being more romantic and affectionate towards her. In my situation, my wife has given so much in the past 6 years, whereas I have given little in comparison. I feel I should be willing to do anything she wants at this point without expecting anything in return. I view what I did as so selfish and hurtful, that I should do whatever it takes to give her a reason to want to R with me. As an example, I now make sure to greet my wife with a very loving kiss/embrace as soon as I walk through the door coming home from work. I ask her at least once a week to dance with me in the evening. It doesn't have to be a long dance, just holding each other and connecting on an intimate level for a little while. This helps me reconnect with my wife and also helps her to feel like I am courting her again. I also sing to her at night (even though I sound like nails on a chalkboard). She knows I hate singing, but I'm going out of my comfort zone for her to make the effort. One of the biggest gestures I've made is going on a rollercoaster for her. I am terrified of rollercoaster, yet I went on one with her to prove I'm truly willing to make changes and be the husband I should have been all along. My wife knows how much I hate rollercoaster, so for her, this was a big step. We've had some ROUGH days since, but that single act does help her on down days. So my recommendation is to find what you are willing to do outside of your comfort zone for your wife. I'm hoping that she'll appreciate your gesture as much as my BS appreciated mine and your intimacy problem will start to diminish.

Unfortunately it has taken me back to a mindset I thought I was completely over, you know the one, "I'll never be able to do enough", "it's no use, she'll never get over it", "I should just give up and pull the plug" etc.

I know this feeling all to well. I've been here and thought this same thought. However, I take one look at my Beautiful BS and I instantly have the motivation to re-engage and fight for my M. Some of my BS's recurring questions are: "why do you want this/me?" "Why do you want to live your life always walking on egg shells or under the shadow of what you've done?" "Wouldn't it be easier to start over with someone else?!" The answer to the first two is simple...I love my wife and I know I've made a huge mistake. I want to grow old with her, raise our family together, and hopefully someday be able to make all of this up to her. She's my best friend (although I haven't treated her as such obviously), the woman I'm most attracted to, and the one who I hate to imagine my life without. Would it be easier to start over and possibly find someone else...yes. But taking the easy way is not what I want and not what my BS deserves. I was guilty of taking the easy way before in my M, but that's not a mistake i'm willing to accept ever again! If she chooses to R with me, she deserves to have the loving, doting husband who will always protect, always care, and always put her first. I know I can be that man and I am making those changes to make it happen. So in answer to your question of how to get past your rejection: I would say you're on the right path. It's gonna be hard most days. You have to find what's motivating you to stay and why you want to put forth the effort knowing that the R may never happen. It's out of your hands how she reacts, One of the best words of wisdom I've gotten here is this: "you can't change her mind, but you can give her a reason to want to (change it herself)". -TimeToManUp

[This message edited by 1DumbHusband at 11:30 PM, August 31st (Saturday)]


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 2:05 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

I don't post at all. But BW and I are trying to do SI together. What I mean is take this with a grain of salt, I'm not a very experienced member of this forum

My wife's love language is words of affirmation. I found the same problem of her not believing me, even now. But writing little notes and leaving them there for her to find seems to work a treat.

My wife pointed out that there is nothing of the things you listed to make her feel special. You do all the right things but your wife wants to have a more emotional connection with you.

I have the same problem, I'm not romantic but I have to sometimes suck it up and just do it. And it's not that bad anyway, I get her flowers, we just usually get something to eat and go to the movies.

Easy and apparently that's romantic

Sometimes you just have to do it.

[This message edited by mrmarx at 2:09 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 3:34 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

What your comment made me feel is that your wife does not feel in any way she has any part of your A associated with marriage woes. To me it is like she feels this is 100% a piece of your DNA that has nothing to do with her or your marriage.

I may be reading this incorrectly, but are you saying that my BS should share some blame in my choice to cheat?
If so, I strongly disagree. My choice to cheat was 100% on me. I could have done a lot of things to address my perceived problems with our marriage or end it if no solution or compromise could be reached.

I will say though, that when the subject of issues with the marriage pre-cheating are discussed, I have noticed a pattern with my BS, she will admit 'Yes I ....was.....wasn't.....didn't .....did, but that's because you were......were not.....didn't.....did.....'.

@mrmarx. Thankyou for the suggestions. I'll give it a go.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

Just wanted to add

movies seem to take off all the pressure of 'being romantic' I don't even understand what 'being romantic' is.

Honestly I think it's just an excuse for going out and 'doing something' and getting flowers or chocolate.

In terms of sex, my old counsellor said a 'naked massage' is how to get the spark back. It only works if both are good at giving massages though. I reckon if you gave a naked massage a go after taking her out it might go okay.

Also maybe you just need to do one of those big gestures that romantic people always seem to pull off. Like a hot air balloon ride and then going to a pre-booked hotel get a bit tipsy with the poison of your choice. Maybe you and your wife are too stubborn and if you do a big grand gesture the stalemate will be broken?

Again, I am not romantic, I share your pain. I would rather eat pizza and watch the cricket then do any of that crap. Be cheaper too.

By the way, I am not sure about the naked massage, but my wife would not touch or look at me at all. And I am not a stoner, but my friend gave me some and we smoked it, bam, it broke down the wall. So maybe a bit of alcohol could help


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 8:05 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

In terms of sex, my old counsellor said a 'naked massage' is how to get the spark back. It only works if both are good at giving massages though. I reckon if you gave a naked massage a go after taking her out it might go okay.

Thanks for the suggestion, unfortuneatly I have not had the pleasure of seeing my BS naked in three & a half years. The hurt runs that deep.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 8:11 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

that sucks,

still would go for over the top gesture though. Also I wonder if you did it at a hotel it would get rid of that 'failed' attempt. I think some people are like that, I know my wife is.

as realestate agents say
"location location location"
I just don't know how you do it. Three and a half years is a long time. Regardless of infidelity, it's still a marriage.

edited to add that I completely disagree with 'Just desserts' analysis of this, I think it paints your wife in a completely unfair light. I think there is just a wall that needs to be broken down and I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

She doesn't want to have sex (apparently)
You do
She wants to reconnect emotionally
You don't seem to know how to go about it because the wall of china has been put up

I think you both want sex and you both want to be connected to eachother. Sometimes over the top gestures work, apparently it's the effort. Stalemate, i'm going to quote him although I hate him

"needs to be the hero of this relationship" - Dr Phil

"We have discussed this, but we don't seem to be able to reach an agreement on a plan. "

Write the plan yourself and say I want us to start 'reconnecting'. For the next month

[This message edited by mrmarx at 8:22 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
c128hart
New Member
Member # 40174
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

Wow, physical intimacy after the A is one of the toughest things for a WS as well as the BS. I think its really difficult when one of the reasons for the A was sex. Then when the R starts and the WS is transparent and open and the BS asks for lots of details and those details include the sexual encounters.
This leads to increased insecurities and loss of self esteem on the part of the BS. What are we WS's supposed to do? Here we are trying to R, being open and honest about everything, and in so doing contributing to the loss of self esteem and worsening of our situation with regards to trying to save the marriage. Then if we are intimate what about the pressure to 'perform' with our BS?
All in all its a bad situation. I see no solution other than to weather the storm, keep doing what we as WS's can do (which is clean OUR side of the street) and pray that our BS comes around. Even trying to talk to them about it is dangerous, I guess it all boils down to how long and difficult the healing process is. It is unique for each individual. Some of us WS's really struggle with the large amount, or lack of detail that our BS wants about the A. With each BS being different, there is no one answer, we just have to stick to the promise to be transparent and ask that the BS really think about what they are asking and why. I see the problem as the BS needing information to make a decision to stay or not stay in the marriage. Those would be the questions I would think you want us WS's to be honest and transparent about. Now ask yourself, are the details of sexual positions or locations really one of the questions that helps you make that decision?

Posts: 10 | Registered: Aug 2013
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

@mrmarx

edited to add that I completely disagree with 'Just desserts' analysis of this, I think it paints your wife in a completely unfair light. I think there is just a wall that needs to be broken down and I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

Fair enough. If after 4 years from DDay, and 3.5 year of no marital sex, and slowuptake writing

she still has not made a decision to reconcile
you are convinced that:

do one of those big gestures that romantic people always seem to pull off. Like a hot air balloon ride and then going to a pre-booked hotel get a bit tipsy with the poison of your choice. Maybe you and your wife are too stubborn and if you do a big grand gesture the stalemate will be broken?

a grand gesture, and utilizing alcohol will break down the walls of an unhealthy, prolonged stalemate, well, power on. I remain skeptical, and disagree with your idea that some grand romantic "window dressing" gesture, which will obviously come across as forced and "agenda laden", will somehow serve to help this BW, WH, and their marriage, begin to heal.

And I did punctuate my thoughts with this:

I may be way off base. I am no counselor. YMMV. And most definitely IMHO.

These are just my impressions from reading this thread, and they may or may not be applicable, right, or helpful, but I did want to share them as they are my gut impressions. I am not blaming her for your affair, or excusing you for initially ripping your marital plant out of the ground, roots and all.

If healing our individual and marital woes were as easy as buying chocolates, flowers, balloon rides and champagne, then we wouldn't need this forum.

Slowuptake: I hope you and your wife will get the help you need. It would appear you both have some very serious decisions to make with regard to your recovery and marriage, and where it is heading.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

Well I think you misinterpreted what I wrote then.

The point is you need to start from somewhere. There is an obvious stalemate and a gesture can start the ball rolling for emotional intimacy and deeper discussions.

grand romantic "window dressing" gesture, which will obviously come across as forced and "agenda laden", will somehow serve to help this BW, WH, and their marriage, begin to heal.

I don't think anywhere I said, oh just do this that will fix it
I'm truly not that stupid. And it has been recommended by pysciologists to actually start off with a gesture. A little effort can go a long way

My original thoughts have not changed, you painted his betrayed wife as very cunning and manipulative. Where there is really no indication that she thinks the following


4) and she has allowed a sense of righteous indignation to excuse being stuck and basically wanting to watch the marriage die. You stand by your "marital plant" with a watering can that is at least partially filled by your efforts to change and be safe for her. And she won't allow you to pour the water on. But she does expect you to keep going out to the well and bringing more buckets of water in to pile on the floor next to the dying, parched plant. Her "marital martyrdom" means the marriage she feels you've killed will be all your fault when it does fail/die.

5) no sex, in her mind, accomplishes two things. Withholds/punishes you for the very act you engaged in to kill the marriage. And dares/ challenges you to NOT go out and do it again which would, again, justify her detachment from you and the marriage.

(how do you know what's going on in her mind?)

People react differently to trauma because we are all different.

But I understand the saying here is "take what you need and leave the rest" I am sure the original poster can ascertain what he finds helpful for himself.

[This message edited by mrmarx at 10:07 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, September 1st (Sunday)

I would ask about your sex life pre A. I have not read your profile but how was it for you 2 when you first met? Did you enjoy sex?

Forgive me if I am wrong but it feels like you 2 have not been on the same age for awhile. And neither seems to want to break down these walls.

Saying neither of you will seek MC/IC to work out these issues which have grown to major WALLS is a recipie for failure. You both are angry, you both are unsatisfied and you both won't talk about it.

I truly wish for you both the ability to find a way to talk. About everything. Seems like you have nothing left to lose at this point.


Posts: 5632 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

Thanks for the suggestion, unfortuneatly I have not had the pleasure of seeing my BS naked in three & a half years. The hurt runs that deep.

But didn't you say:

About a year & half ago we did try to restart our sex life.

I know I asked this earlier, but: what are all the things that are special to you about your wife?

Romance might feel out of your comfort zone, but try it. Try getting into it. It's not only a way to comfort your BS, but also a way to reconnect with each other. To have genuinely positive experiences with each other and build new, happy memories. What is holding you back? Is it lack of ideas or something else?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.


Posts: 3902 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 6:55 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

Got the book I was thinking about.

"I love you but I'm not in love you" Seven steps of saving your relationship. By Andrew G Marshall.

Great book. "never underestimate the significance of a single, generous, open hearted gesture".

I recommend this one for you.


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

I love the simple saying. A miracle is simply a change in perception.

Rather than tasking your wife with making a decision understand you have that choice as well.

I can't imagine how hard it would be to open myself up to someone that betrayed me. I can't because I didn't. I knew that the amount of trust needed as well as the safety required for that act to occur was beyond my marriage with my ex. Didn't exist. Never existed.

Once I understood that my course was clear...for me and therefore for us as a couple.

I'm not condemning him to a life sentence of vigilance and retribution for all his past choices nor am I inflicting my imperfect healing on him thus potentially limiting his growth and chance to have a fresh set of eyes observe the man now without the baggage hologramed on to him.

Your wife's responses may be very understandable. Your frustration with them also understandable.

Either there can be a shift in perception or the dance continues with both partners seeing the other as the reason for their own movements.

You can have understanding and empathy for her pain. Acknowledge your responsibility for your role in the cause while choosing a different path.

A marriage that is celibate, unless both partners want that, is a recipe for disaster.

It's not about blame. It's simply sustainability.

Fear can paralyze. It can also alert the person feeling it that there is a real threat and they need to get themselves to safety. When facing a true life threatening event your body usually makes that decision for you by running or fighting. If its more subtle you have to make the choice no matter how hard it can be or risk staying and fighting not just the "enemy" but yourself as well.

Long way to my point. Sometimes the mere understanding you have a choice and staying every day is an active choice brings some stability and frees your mind to explore possibilities not entertained previously due to the internal struggle.

It can also bring clarity that what once was is no longer viable.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 5:37 AM, September 2nd (Monday)

@JustDesserts & mrmarx

Hey guys,

You know what I really like?

Points of view from both ends of the spectrum so I can accurately determine the middle.

I would ask about your sex life pre A. I have not read your profile but how was it for you 2 when you first met? Did you enjoy sex?

From the first time and the twenty years thereafter, spectacular, awesome, mind blowing. The latter fifteen years, up & down.
Probably tmi, but when we were in our thirties I often had to ask for a couple of days respite to regain my strength.

@Silverhopes. It was dark and no lights.

I know I asked this earlier, but: what are all the things that are special to you about your wife?

Her wicked sense of humour
A laugh that can make my day
Her ability to organise
Her intelligence and quick wit
Generous & empathic nature
Hazel/green eyes depending on the light
Her taste in entertainment (we don't have exactly the same tastes, she likes musicals, go figure)
She has lustrous straight long hair.
Her cooking, she makes the best desserts. (one of the reasons I'm 20kgs [45lbs] over my 'ideal' weight)

The following may sound a bit crude but remember it comes from a place of love with a just touch of lust.(maybe a bit more than a touch)

She has the most shapely long legs I have ever seen on a woman.(or a man for that matter, not that I look)
A 'rack' to die for, a butt the angels sing about and a full curvaceous womanly figure.


@ UO

In my long time lurking on SI I have sometimes had difficulty following your train of thought.
On this occasion, I get the point


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
Topic Posts: 45