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User Topic: 6 years and not much reason for my BS to hope
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 6:13 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

For 6 years, I have been a horrible husband. I have lied to my wife, trickle truth'd, gas lighted, cheated, and taken advantage of her love and emotions. We were having a good weekend for most of the weekend, however last night my wife had some triggers and one incident unrelated to my A that has set her on a downward fall on the rollercoaster of emotions we find ourselves since DDay. I have been on SI doing considerable research and looking into how to fix myself and resolve my own internal issues. We tried MC but my BS is not open to it at this time as we have tried before it was not productive. I have explored IC but financially it's not feasible for us. So for now, SI is our therapy and I have actually learned a lot about myself after being on here for not quite a month.

Early on in my relationship with my amazing BS i had an EA. I've learned how my previous EA was never fully addressed. I've learned that I TT'd and gas lighted the situation after the EA and never took ownership of my BS's triggers in response to those actions. I thought it was her dwelling on the past, when in truth it wasn't fully resolved. I wish I had found SI back then and then my BS and I would not be in our current situation. We could have fixed this before my behaviors and actions got worse.

So today, my wife has again asked me to leave. It KILLS me to no end but I honored her wishes and left because that's what I've learned on here. However when I left, I was numb and we were discussing my actions which caused me to be defensive and emphatic about how I am trying to make changes and improve myself for my BS and my family. I wasn't angry. I've learned on here that I need to be supportive and not angry when these incidents occur. I really am using SI as my therapy and learning to apply the things I read to our situation. After I left, my lovely BS calls me and we enter our conversation again. She says me leaving so easily proves how much I don't want her or our family. She said she expects me to break down and get emotional. I don't cry when i get defensive. However, lately i cry when times are good. I cried when my BS and i have our nightly (on good nights when she allows) dance together. I cry sometimes when we read our SI posts to each other. I didn't used to be a cryer.

Here's my question to everyone: what is the right thing to do when your BS asks you to leave? Do you stay and beg for forgiveness and not to leave? Or do you honor their wishes? Leaving is by no means what I want, but I've spent 6 years not being attentive to my wife. History is definitely not on my side when I try to convince her this time will be different. And she is fully within her rights to say she's done. After all, in 6 years I haven't given her much reason to hope because of my actions. So when she asks I try to honor her wishes. I'm trying to help her heal and I want more than anything to show her I am making permanent changes to be the husband and man I should have been. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

we were discussing my actions which caused me to be defensive

I wasn't angry.

The two statements don't match.

I've learned on here that I need to be supportive and not angry when these incidents occur.

These are just words. What plan do you have to "be supportive "? What does that mean to you?

what is the right thing to do when your BS asks you to leave?

It doesn't matter what you do. Whether you acquiesce or not, you will be doing the wrong thing. When your wife is that angry, leaving or staying will make her angrier. So, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that you have spent a lot of time reading here, but I don't think you have really learned how to apply the words you read - your assertion notwithstanding. You know you need to be supportive, but you get defensive (I don't believe you weren't angry - I believe you don't even know when you're angry because you stuff those feelings so you don't feel them, but they are there) and you are in fact SO UNSUPPORTIVE that your wife gets angry enough to ask you to leave.

You are analyzing the wrong question. You need to look at what's happening UPSTREAM of when she asks you to leave.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

Thanks UnexpectedSong. I should add some clarity. I was defensive in that I was trying to convince my BS that the changes I've been making and the journey I've undertaken here on SI will be a lasting permanent change for me and for us. I was trying to state how wrong I've been and what I am doing to fix me and make myself safe for her again. I wasn't angry (as in yelling back). I was trying to be supportive by listening to her concerns/fears and taking ownership of my infidelity and convince her this is the last time she'll ever have to feel this way because of me. To be supportive in my mind is hearing her out when she triggers or has these inquisitive times. I try (when she allows me) to hold her and I apologize profusely and tell her I will never be that guy again. Again, history is not on my side and when she has forgiven me in the past, I have squandered my opportunities to change. I didn't realize how I was causing the issues and how I had a SA problem myself. Post DDay is when that information came to light and I'm actively working on it to rid myself of those demons and put all focus on my BS and family. I've created a 6 year mountain to climb and I'm only just starting at the base to make up for it.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 7:22 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

I was trying to convince my BS that the changes I've been making and the journey I've undertaken here on SI will be a lasting permanent change for me

Ah ok. Well, stop it. You cannot convince her of this. You cannot convince yourself. The only thing you can be sure of is now.

So don't explain. And don't try to convince. Just be consistent. Be transparent. Be consistent. Be transparent. For the next 40 years.

Everything else will take care of itself.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 7:22 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 8:58 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

How do you not explain or try to convince when your BS is recalling and reliving your past indiscretions and asking you to tell them "why is it different now or why is it going to change THIS time?" So the roller coaster for us is her asking me to leave, then saying she misses me after I'm gone and wants nothing more than to be held by me. So I return and the discussion begins again. From what I have seen on SI, being supportive is letting your BS vent, apologizing and telling them (sincerely) that you'll never do those things again. I've been consistent with that message as well as transparent with everything. I just have those days where I'm totally lost and confused and being consistent doesn't seem to matter to my BS.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:26 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

Forgive me - I've tried to read your profile but could not navigate that wall of text. Basically, you have been together 6 years and you have been cheating/lying about cheating/etc. for 6 years. The entire relationship. Correct?

Of course she will keep asking you over and over again. But I don't think you know yet WHY you cheated. Until you do, you cannot know that you will not cheat again.

I had a 1-month A after 8 years of marriage and my H doubted our entire relationship. Your wife has empirical evidence that you will cheat multiple times.

Do you know your triggers? What is your perfect storm that starts an affair? (you don't have to tell us - do you know within yourself?) some people's perfect storm consists of 10 elements (feeling lonely plus stress plus new project, blah blah). Some people's perfect storm consists of only 2 things - anger and alone time in the computer. You need to find your triggers by observing your behavior and responses to various stimuli over the course of a year, at least. That is something a good therapist can do.

telling them (sincerely) that you'll never do those things again

That is just the tip of the iceberg. You hear that a lot because most BSes here have unremorseful WSes. This is what they want, because they haven't had anything else.

But to really help your wife feel safe, you cannot just TELL her. That's just words. You need to SHOW her. And one way to show her is to know - deeply and truly - why you cheated.

I don't think you know.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, September 2nd (Monday)

As an example, describe the first few steps of your EA from years ago. How did it start? Who initiated? What was going on in your life at that moment? Work issues? Relationship issues? Family issues?

There is always that moment when the switch happens in your head to go forward with an affair. What was that moment for you?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 12:01 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

Basically, you have been together 6 years and you have been cheating/lying about cheating/etc. for 6 years. The entire relationship. Correct?

Correct. It started with a EA to a woman I was interested in and had gone out with a couple of times before my BS and i met. We had talked and gone out a couple of times by the time my BS and I started dating. I continued on with both women and didn't go NC (with AP) until 7 months after my BS and I decided to "become official as a couple". Even then, when i told the AP, i only admitted to just having started dating my BS even though by that point we were living together. Over the next 5 years, I had gone online to look at porn and find women to chat with on Craigslist, dating websites, etc. I met up with two women and my worst offense (as if those weren't bad enough) was sleeping with an escort.

But I don't think you know yet WHY you cheated. Until you do, you cannot know that you will not cheat again.

This is a source of contention between my loving BS and myself. Part of my WHY is because I rationalized and justified my behavior based upon what I perceived my BS was doing. We were both going online at the time and having sexually inappropriate conversations with strangers. My BS would post ads on Craigslist how she was lonely and I ignored her. I focused on her sexual desires expressed in the post rather than recognize these were cries for help and affection from me. Rather than confront my wife, I convinced myself she was having her own A and told myself if she could do it, I could do it. I know how terrible this thought process and line of thinking is. Its immature, selfish, and self serving. Another reason is I was addicted to going online and carrying on with my "second life" and having the fantasies that came along with them. Finally, I think there's some FOO issues. I was an only child and kept seeking more and more to fulfill me. I engaged in multiple hobbies (4-5) in the period since my BS and I have been together. In our marriage, I kept seeking more by going online and having those conversations. I liked the attention and the validation I got from having that online fantasy. I grew up the "fat kid" so I felt rejected a lot as a kid. Going online and meeting more women (after I was married) was an attempt to feel desired more by multiple people. I know this is a personal self esteem issue that I'm working to correct.

Do you know your triggers? What is your perfect storm that starts an affair? (you don't have to tell us - do you know within yourself?) some people's perfect storm consists of 10 elements (feeling lonely plus stress plus new project, blah blah). Some people's perfect storm consists of only 2 things - anger and alone time in the computer. You need to find your triggers by observing your behavior and responses to various stimuli over the course of a year, at least. That is something a good therapist can do.

So I feel my triggers involve online addictions. Porn, chatting, etc. that started me down the path to considering cheating. I have since gone NC with the online material and my BS has installed key logging software on my computer as well as looks at all browser history on iPhone/iPad. I want to help her heal so badly and to be the man/husband she deserves. I know I may never be able to prove to her, but I'll definitely go down swinging to make the effort!


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 12:20 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

I was defensive in that I was trying to convince my BS that the changes I've been making and the journey I've undertaken here on SI will be a lasting permanent change for me and for us

Well, stop doing that. Your BS isn't going to 'believe' you just because you say it's so. Your BS is going to be trusting her 'gut.' You've TT'd and gaslighted her and so that has added an extra mile to the hill that you have to climb.

She says me leaving so easily proves how much I don't want her or our family. She said she expects me to break down and get emotional.

She asked you to leave. You are respecting her by honoring her requeat. You can honor her and your family by continuing to act as a 'husband' even though you aren't living in the family home.

SA demons cannot be fought by using SI alone. There's an online SA website (can't think of the name right now) that allows you to work on your SA issues w/o the expense of therapy.

Being consistent means being consistent "long-term". Your BS most likely is worried that you are *white-knuckling* it.....which is where her *why is it different now* statements come into play.

Here's my question to everyone: what is the right thing to do when your BS asks you to leave?

You leave. You go to a *safe* place that will not encourage you to act out.
You offer up total transparency.

One of the best statements that I've heard from an IC is "make actions that are in the best interest of your FAMILY."

(dude, it's been 6 years that your BW has been dealing with you....it's time for you to get really serious about your issues)


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7230 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 12:24 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

We were both going online at the time and having sexually inappropriate conversations with strangers. My BS would post ads on Craigslist how she was lonely and I ignored her.

So did your wife also cheat?


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7230 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

Part of my WHY is because I rationalized and justified my behavior based upon what I perceived my BS was doing.

No, that's not it at all.

Let's go back even further. When was the first time you ever cheated? Did you have girlfriends before your wife? And technically, you were cheating on the woman you were with when you started with your wife.

We were both going online at the time and having sexually inappropriate conversations with strangers. My BS would post ads on Craigslist how she was lonely and I ignored her. I focused on her sexual desires expressed in the post

Whoa! What is this about? She was doing this? Did she get responses? Did she have EAs?

So I feel my triggers involve online addictions. Porn, chatting, etc.

No, those behaviors are the RESULTS of your triggers. What are the circumstances that make you want to go online? Is it when you feel lonely? Stressed? Bored? Worried? Happy?

I have since gone NC with the online material

Anyone can white-knuckle for a few months. You have adrenaline on your side for awhile. I want to know what plan you have in place the next time your triggers hit and you feel the urge to go online and it takes you more energy to resist than to give in.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 4:32 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

Just wanted to say I've found this thread really helpful, in terms of the 'perfect storm' elements.

1Dumbhusband: I've not had my wife ask me to leave too many times. But when this has happened I will leave her my phone go to the coffee shop down the road, get us two coffees and sit in the park and wait. I let her know what I'm going to do. I've found this to alleviate her fears that I am going to do something wrong: my take on honesty and transparency.

About your wife: I'm a bit concerned from what you've described in terms of an EA too. I can only base from what you've described but it seems an element may be revenge

I had the same problem too except diluted: I felt abandoned and alone by my wife (purely without reason to be honest), onset of anxiety and depression and a lot of people pulling me different ways in my career. Also because at one stage worked together I noticed her male co-workers paid her a lot of attention. Infact one who also knew we were married! asked her out and proclaimed his undying love to her. We later discovered he's pretty unstable and did that to a lot of girls.

Another male co-worker dropped her home every night from work (I finished earlier then her). During that time the main other woman would call me twice a week drunk and essentially begging me to have sex with her.

So that's my example of a perfect storm. Maybe you could really try and break it down?


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

SA demons cannot be fought by using SI alone. There's an online SA website (can't think of the name right now) that allows you to work on your SA issues w/o the expense of therapy

(dude, it's been 6 years that your BW has been dealing with you....it's time for you to get really serious about your issues

Gonnabe: thanks for your input. If you can think of the site, please let me know and I'll check it out. I've been reading and have attended SAA meetings to help address this. For 6 years I thought I was being a decent husband, but I was in denial. I was being a terrible husband and I am serious about change. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't.

So did your wife also cheat?

Yes she admitted she had an EA because she felt neglected and lonely based upon my actions. She didn't know about my online activities, but I was gone a lot for work and had a lot of hobbies when I was home.

When was the first time you ever cheated? Did you have girlfriends before your wife? And technically, you were cheating on the woman you were with when you started with your wife.

US: one serious Gf before my BS. I first time I guess was the EA when we were first dating. I wasn't even dating the woman I was talking to when my BS and I met. I wouldn't say that WS chatting on her because we weren't together.

No, those behaviors are the RESULTS of your triggers. What are the circumstances that make you want to go online? Is it when you feel lonely? Stressed? Bored? Worried? Happy?
. I used to travel a lot for work...I was a pilot. Lots of alone nights in a hotel. I guess part of it was lonely in terms of physical contact because my wife and I were on the phone most nights or on video chat. Bored could be a part as I used to go online when I was sitting around. And then it became an addiction. Worried that my BS was doing something only fueled it more. I was bad at communicating and was a conflict avoider.

Anyone can white-knuckle for a few months. You have adrenaline on your side for awhile. I want to know what plan you have in place the next time your triggers hit and you feel the urge to go online and it takes you more energy to resist than to give in.

Very true! In the past my wife said I was in panic mode. And she's right. Now I need to make changes so this isn't just panic mode, but a change that's permanent and lifelong. My plan for triggers is avoiding the online material, focusing on my wife/kids, leaving the situation that is tempting me and focusing on something else (I.e. reading or SI, etc).

Mrmarx: thanks for the input and joining the conversation.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:04 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

I see a lot of things that need to be focused on in your post.

You seem to think that as long as you avoid going online then everything will be ok. I would caution you about this.

As gonna pointed out, this is your trigger, not the reason. You need to get down to why you did this. You mentioned conflict avoidance, are you looking into that?

Also worry about what your W was doing, what is she doing about the fact that she also cheated? Is she working on her own why? So you feel safe that she isn't going to do this again?

You mention boredom, is this a problem for you? There were many other choices for you, why didn't you make a healthy choice?

See, many layers here for you to look at.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

Also worry about what your W was doing, what is she doing about the fact that she also cheated? Is she working on her own why? So you feel safe that she isn't going to do this again?

I would personally like to address this issue. It is not something I am proud of, but I did go online and start looking to talk with other people. Call it revenge from the initial EA, call it attention seeking because I felt lonely and brushed aside, call it a cry for help...no matter which angle you look at it, it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. However, I resolved this issue in myself a long time ago. I realized that if it was for revenge, it wasn't worth it. If it was attention seeking, it was looking for the wrong kind of attention. If it was a cry for help, it was crying to the wrong people. I realized, on my own and a long time ago, that there is no excuse or justification for what I did when I was talking with other people. It was a very short-term thing that happened during a low point in my life.

I also asked 1DH that if he knew I was having these emails, and if he actually thought I was having PAs, why did it never bother him enough to confront me? Why did he use it as fuel to actually go out and have sex with other people? The only conclusion I can come up with is that he wanted to have PAs all along, and used the revenge EAs I had as enough justification to actually go out and do it. He was watching porn and chatting with women from CL long before I ever gave him the justification to. It was when he saw my emails that he bumped it up a notch and actually started meeting women in person to have PAs.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

CCW....

Have the two of you done any reading on A's together? If not may I suggest a book you should share...

"After the Affair, fixing the hurt and restoring trust after one spouse has been unfaithful" it is by Janis Abrahms. Great book for both of you to explore together.

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

It was a very short-term thing that happened during a low point in my life.

So is a ONS. You're minimizing....


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3613 | Registered: Dec 2010
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

TxsT, we have read one book together - "Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction" by Patrick Carnes. We've also been reading the SAA daily meditation book. 1DH admits he's the world's slowest reader, while I am a fast reader.

By myself, I have read about 4 books on affairs and SA. I did read that book "After the Affair" you are speaking of. I remember reading it and thinking it was hard to apply it to us, however, because the author advises to look back at what made you fall in love with him in the first place. Well, since I learned that his EA, TTs, gaslighting, and lying started on DAY ONE of our relationship, it's hard for me to lovingly look back on our memories and reasons why I fell in love with him. Those memories and reasons are all lies, or at best, they are severely tainted.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

rachelc, when he finally confronted me in May about these emails from 2011, believe me...there was no minimalizing! I completely owned up to what I did, called myself a horrible wife, and knew with certainty that what I did was WRONG. I still maintain that what I did was WRONG, with or without his transgressions.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

I also asked 1DH that if he knew I was having these emails, and if he actually thought I was having PAs, why did it never bother him enough to confront me?

Just wanted to add in my two cents. My wife suspected the same and never confronted. Not because she didn't care, but for a combination of reasons including denial.


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 12:59 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)


You seem to think that as long as you avoid going online then everything will be ok. I would caution you about this. As gonna pointed out, this is your trigger, not the reason. You need to get down to why you did this. You mentioned conflict avoidance, are you looking into that?

Part of the question earlier was what am i doing to avoid the triggers. I haven't looked into conflict avoidance yet. Part of the whys (for me) involve my justifying my actions based on what I perceived (wrongly) my BS was doing. I also felt I needed validation which is why I had the online affairs over the course of our relationship. I have told my BS that when we first got together, my self esteem issues told me I was a rebound relationship for her as she had just gotten a divorce. Part of me never let go of that mentality in a lot of ways. I'm still digging into me, it's just taking more time to dig through the layers.

[Quote]Also worry about what your W was doing, what is she doing about the fact that she also cheated? Is she working on her own why? So you feel safe that she isn't going to do this again?

Her whys were a result of the poor treatment she received from me. I know I spent too much time on my hobbies and my interests away from the family. Couple that with my job that took me away 3-4 days a week and I can see why she would feel like I didn't care or that I didn't want to be with her. Do I feel safe? The answer is yes.

[Quote]You mention boredom, is this a problem for you? There were many other choices for you, why didn't you make a healthy choice?

I think I had gotten use to going online for so long (6 years ironically between my previous relationship and the relationship with my BS) that I became numb and "used to doing it". Hence the addiction aspect. It became second nature and where I used to go for validation and "fake intimacy". I would often seek this when I was bored or as a nightly habit. Boredom in and of itself is not the reason. I think it was boredom coupled with opportunity with my online habits. The healthy choice would have been talking to my wife. I've had issues being confrontational (that's one of her biggest complaints about me). As far as why I didn't choose the healthy choice...I'm still working on that. There were probably 1000 healthier choices than the one I made.

My wife suspected the same and never confronted. Not because she didn't care, but for a combination of reasons including denial.

Thanks Marx! My wonderful BS wonders why I didn't confront her and often argues its because I didn't care. Would you care to elaborate on your post further?

[This message edited by 1DumbHusband at 1:21 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)]


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 2:00 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)

1dumbhusband: I wouldn't want to speak too much on my wife's behalf but form what I understand.
1) Deep denial that it was possible
2) combination with me telling her she had trust issues
3) I think she wanted to stick her head in the sand because she knew it would blow up
4) She actually wanted to trust me and blamed herself for not trusting me

there are further reasons but I think those ones she would not be happy with me divulging.

Also, I just wanted to comment on:

Her whys were a result of the poor treatment she received from me. I know I spent too much time on my hobbies and my interests away from the family. Couple that with my job that took me away 3-4 days a week and I can see why she would feel like I didn't care or that I didn't want to be with her. Do I feel safe? The answer is yes.

Unfortunately it would make my life a lot easier with my pyscologist and wife if I could claim half of those reasons as my whys. In general from what i've read SI posters would not see that as a why either. The point is there are always options. Since you are both wayward spouses I would recommend both finding out why you did it.

Just as my wife had different options instead of falling into deep denial, she has to work on that for herself to ensure that she feels like when life is shit she can do something about it. Which if the deep denial is what you had, that needs to be worked on for yourself.


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 3:29 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)

When was your most recent affair / infidelity / inappropriate chatting / whatever?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

Mrmarx:

Just as my wife had different options instead of falling into deep denial, she has to work on that for herself to ensure that she feels like when life is shit she can do something about it.

To answer your comment, this is what I wrote on another thread about my own revelations:

Basically, since day one of our relationship, 1DH has been gas lighting me. I thought I was doing everything right -- reading books on how to have a happy marriage, always being open and honest with him about my feelings and things I saw...especially that I was uneasy about his "friend". He would always turn it around on me and make me feel like I was the crazy one for having those thoughts and feelings! He did this over the course of 6 years, so I got beaten down pretty badly. My self esteem and self worth has plummeted over the years because he was telling me that it was my problem, and that I was crazy, yet I kept seeing things and he kept doing things that made me constantly question his intentions and true feelings for me.

*Disclaimer: WHAT I DID WAS WRONG, and I have no excuse or justification! This is just a rundown of what I was going through at the time.*

In 2011, I had given up medical school to have a family with him (yes, MEDICAL SCHOOL -- I was going to be a doctor!). I got pregnant, then miscarried. Got pregnant, then miscarried. Got pregnant, then miscarried...I was in a hurricane of hormones and emotions, and he was living his life like "no big deal"...carrying on with all of his hobbies and sports and such. He also traveled for work (he mentioned in his other post that he was a pilot, so he was gone 3 - 4 days per week). Oh, and he was in grad school for his MBA, so school work took up a lot of his "home time" as well. I started feeling very lonely because as soon as he would get home for work, ZIP! He was right back out the door again to *this hobby* or *that hobby*. He would tell me he loved me, and that these issues were all in my head, but I didn't feel that his actions were showing it. With one part revenge, two parts validation-seeking, I started going online to solicit responses from other men that I was "good enough". If 1DH didn't think I was worth it, surely someone else would?

Off and on, for about 3 months during the summer of 2011, I was online soliciting responses from men. I finally snapped out of it when I started an EA with someone we knew, and after two months of emails back and forth, he started calling me. I realized that it had gone too far, and I ended it. Although I didn't disclose the entire truth, I told 1DH what had happened and promised never to do it again. He was surprisingly understanding...but then again, I hadn't told him the extent to which I had carried on (I basically told him it was overly flirtatious, but it had actually gotten very sexual in nature).

It was SOOOO wrong of me to do it, then to lie to him! It turns out he knew all along, but never let me know (until this May, that is). I realized why I did those things, and fortunately I never did them again. When it all came out in May, I was so ashamed! I knew it was wrong of what I'd done, and I showed him how remorseful I was. I am still very remorseful of what I did, and have not even been tempted to repeat that behavior. I just wish 1DH would have communicated HIS feelings so we could be on the same page!


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

CW82

I'm assuming the way you described medical school it is a status thing? You did not have to give up a dream to have a family with him. You chose too.

Look I actually feel really uncomfortable with posting and judging other people, so I'm just going to go back to reading threads after this post unless you address something to me again for a reply etc. There's something about broken people helping broken people that doesn't seem to be too healthy.

I can't comment on miscarriages except after seeing my mother go through them they are a special type of pain. My heart goes out to you but, you chose to keep trying again and again.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get out of this post. There is a lot of blame shifting, you sound like a victim and to be honest I don't need to know the whole sordid story of both of your affairs. I think you would be better served figuring out the whys of why you did infact all of what you wrote in your post. You would also be better served actually figuring out a strategy for yourself going forward.

I am still very remorseful of what I did, and have not even been tempted to repeat that behavior. I just wish 1DH would have communicated HIS feelings so we could be on the same page!

Whenever you say you did something shit you turn it around like oh dearrr, but 1dumbhusband is shitter!

Hence, I hear a lot of blame on 1dumbhusband, and whilst it may be a possibility he gallantly says that he feels safe and it was his fault etc etc. You both, which means you included, actually need to fix yourselves otherwise you will have a shit marriage. You sound very co-dependant (like my wife), and in some ways your story mirrors my wife... including the medical school part (ended up not being able to go)... including me having 'hobbies' (in my case various work projects all times of the night), including the friend you don't like. Edited to add: just wanted to make it clear that she never cheated.

But either way you need to actually start owning your actions instead of painting yourself as a victim and him as the criminal. When infact when it came to your soliciting and disrespecting your family. You were the perpetrator, and he was the victim. His affairs are a separate issue, it seems like you are trying to get off scott free, you're only going to hurt your husband and yourself by doing that

Okay, unless you want to talk about it more, I'm just going to go back to reading posts

Just re-read this and it sounded way to harsh so I wanted to say yes you are a victim of his affair(s) and I understand you must be in a lot of pain. I do think you deserve a fulfilling resceptful marriage and that is why I believe you both need to work on your infidelities so that you can have what you not only want but also deserve.

[This message edited by mrmarx at 8:53 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)]


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

I'm assuming the way you described medical school it is a status thing? You did not have to give up a dream to have a family with him. You chose too.

No, medical school is not a "status thing", it's just very difficult to achieve. I spent years preparing for, applying to, and then attending medical school.
You're correct, I chose to give up medical school to have a family with him. At the time I thought he was worth the sacrifice, but I'm learning now that I don't even know who he is.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get out of this post. There is a lot of blame shifting, you sound like a victim and to be honest I don't need to know the whole sordid story of both of your affairs. I think you would be better served figuring out the whys of why you did infact all of what you wrote in your post. You would also be better served actually figuring out a strategy for yourself going forward.

I was just being upfront about what I did. I flat out said I know what I did was wrong, no matter what excuses I used at the time, so I don't understand why you think I'm blame shifting? I never said he made me do it, or that he pushed me into it. It was a (poor) choice I made based on my own insecurities. I know why I did it, and I figured out my strategy a long time ago. I've been "moving forward" for quite a while.

Hence, I hear a lot of blame on 1dumbhusband, and whilst it may be a possibility he gallantly says that he feels safe and it was his fault etc etc.

Yes, he does speak gallantly about the situation. I hear the same thing at home. It sounds wonderful, doesn't it? It's all TALK. I'm waiting his actions to back up all of the TALKING he's been doing for the past 6 years. Therein lies my problem! He's been talking a good game, manipulating me by saying these wonderful things I want to hear. Meanwhile he's out dating other women and having sex with prostitutes behind my back. What I did was horrible, and I owned up to that (whether anyone here thinks so or not), but my actions did not bring home an STD to my spouse. Excuse me for sounding bitter about it.

You both, which means you included, actually need to fix yourselves otherwise you will have a shit marriage.

Agreed. Which is why we're both here on SI. We're both looking for guidance in how to handle this whole messy situation.

...including me having 'hobbies' (in my case various work projects all times of the night),

His hobbies took him away for days at a time, on top of the days he was gone for work. When I would voice my disdain, he brushed me off. My opinions and feelings did not matter to him.

including the friend you don't like.

The "friend" I spoke of earlier was the woman he was having an EA with in the beginning, but denying it by saying "she's just a friend". That is why I didn't like her.

But either way you need to actually start owning your actions instead of painting yourself as a victim and him as the criminal. When infact when it came to your soliciting and disrespecting your family. You were the perpetrator, and he was the victim. His affairs are a separate issue, it seems like you are trying to get off scott free, you're only going to hurt your husband and yourself by doing that

I disclosed my indiscretions and took responsibility for what I did, so how is that trying to get off Scott free? I'm trying to understand. We are both to blame, but I've taken great steps to fix myself. I've been waiting for 1DH to do the same for a long time, but he's been in denial that anything has been wrong (on his part). And up until lately, he's also been unwilling to communicate his thoughts and feelings. That's the difference, and that's what I'm trying to get out of this post.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

What mrmarx is trying to say to you, and honestly your own thread on this would be better, is that every time you discuss what you did, there is a but after it and something your H did comes after that "but".

Your actions stand alone.

Just like mine did. Do I get a pass because of what my H did for 18 yrs prior to me sleeping with someone because I couldn't handle all of it? Do I get to put a "but" he did this and that prior to what I did? Or do I make it a stand alone event and deal with my shit separately?

See what I did had nothing to do with my H. Just as what you did had nothing to do with your H.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
ccw82
Member
Member # 40133
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

I apologize, maybe I wasn't properly expressing what I wanted to say earlier. I wasn't trying to convey that "I did _____, but 1DH did _____." I was just laying out the facts from the time it happened.

We both learned about my indiscretions, discovered the whys, and moved on knowing they would never happen again. My actions have matched my words. I'm waiting for it to be mutual.

Thank you both for your feedback.


Me: 31
WH (1DumbHusband): 34
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
TTs that came out as late as September 16th, 2013

Posts: 136 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Dallas, TX
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

When was your most recent affair / infidelity / inappropriate chatting / whatever?

US: it was in June right before DDay. I flirted inappropriately with a classmate from a work training class. Prior to that, we had a "mini DDay" when my wife learned about my online chatting addiction.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:30 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

If 1DH didn't think I was worth it, surely someone else would?

Like you? Until you do the rest of this shit show is irrelevant.

Not going to address your choices involving others. I'm just going to ask why are you together? You are very clear that this has been an unhealthy relationship where you've been emotionally abandoned and lied to. So, why are you still there? Even if you love him, which based on your list would be a curious response, what is keeping you in this marriage?

He isn't there for you emotionally or physically. Neither are you. You're not there for yourself either. You're willing to even take up where he leaves off by betraying yourself with your own choices.

You're looking for change in him. Do you shop that way? You need milk, cheese and eggs. You pick up bananas, grapefruit and cereal. Do you think those items will somehow morph into the milk, cheese and eggs you need just because you really want tem to? Can you imagine explaining those choices and actions? Why are you upset? Well, I need milk cheese and eggs. So why did you get bananas, grapefruit and cereal? Because I need milk, cheese, and eggs so I'm just going to wait until these become them.

That's insane, right? You'd seriously think someon was a bubble shy of plumb if you heard that. That's with something insignificant. Why on earth would you do this exact thing in your personal life affecting your presen and future?

You need to look at what you have right this moment. Can you live with that? If not, you have your answer.

I was accepted to two top tier law schools. Got married instead. I made a choice. I...made...a...choice. Part of it worked out really well, part didn't. So...next...


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:08 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

Just me personally, I feel uncomfortable with Mrs. 1DH posting on this thread, so I'm gonna ignore her posts.

it was in June right before DDay

What was happening when the switch in your head said "go for it"?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 3:10 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

I feel unfortunately like I need to reply to this.

1. Completely agree with tired girl's assertion about the buts, this is what I was trying to put across to you

2. I personally don't think you have worked through your 'whys' because it relies basically on 1dumbhusband's actions

3. This is something I am still trying to figure out for myself: It's not being a passive spectator in my life, it's not being a victim. Because if I am a victim then that means I have no power to change my future, I will simply always be a victim. Do you want that to be your future?

4. I think it may be best to do your own thread in the wayward section, I know that may seem frightening but in the end it seems for all the transgressions on both sides you both want this to work.

I understand you feel the need to defend yourself on his threads but I really think it detracts from 1dumbhusband's advice.

Finally

My actions have matched my words. I'm waiting for it to be mutual.

To be frank, I don't see that at all. You lied until DDAY came so honestly I don't see that matching any actions whatsoever.

Hence, I hear a lot of blame on 1dumbhusband, and whilst it may be a possibility he gallantly says that he feels safe and it was his fault etc etc.

I think I left that part of the post to misconception: I meant he might gallantly believe that he feels safe and it was his fault for your affair but I would think that through deeper exploration of this, that may not be the case.


You can tell I think my wife is awesomely smart because I will relay something she tells me over and over again.

Cheating is a destination, for it to be a destination there are choices to get there. What that means is you constantly lied, outright and by admission for a couple of years. I don't see how your actions are matching your words.

I understand the need to be defensive 100%. But I think if you don't want to listen to me about it, at least listen to tired girl and uncertainone because they are filled with wisdom based on experience.

Just going to finish it off with

I was accepted to two top tier law schools. Got married instead. I made a choice. I...made...a...choice. Part of it worked out really well, part didn't. So...next...

Exactly

[This message edited by mrmarx at 3:22 AM, September 5th (Thursday)]


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 3:31 AM, September 5th (Thursday)

To 1dumbhusband,

I became numb and "used to doing it". Hence the addiction aspect. It became second nature and where I used to go for validation and "fake intimacy". I would often seek this when I was bored or as a nightly habit. Boredom in and of itself is not the reason. I think it was boredom coupled with opportunity with my online habits. The healthy choice would have been talking to my wife.

I just wanted to say I can completely understand and relate to this. For me in addition it was an instant 'fix'. How did you feel afterwards? I would feel very strange and empty. Was this the same for you?

Did you ever have stints where you tried to go cold turkey? aka "this is bad I won't let this happen again, i'll behave" How did you feel about yourself during those periods of times? My pyscholgoist has me on Cognitive behavoural journalling I've found it very useful. Especially since you talk about feeling you were in a rebound relationship. Looking back on it now, was there any comments that were said that really made you feel that way? I've found when I did the mental inventory of this I discovered after a day of reflection that there was comments said but when using cognitive behavoural techniques they were 'false' thoughts in relation to the comments

In terms of online activities, I agree it is a temporary fix to a much deeper problem. However a good step in the right direction. I also understand the travelling part on both yourself and your wife. I know when I've gone on week travelling trips or 3 days etc it can be weird getting back into the relationship part, do you find that as well?


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

Thank you everyone (including my Beautiful BS) for contributing to this thread. I think getting input from different people helps us address issues.

Like you? Until you do the rest of this shit show is irrelevant...He isn't there for you emotionally or physically. Neither are you. You're not there for yourself either. You're willing to even take up where he leaves off by betraying yourself with your own choices.

While I appreciate input, I feel this comment is a little offensive. I would prefer this be an open dialogue about my own issues, not a back and forth between my issues and my poor BS's issues. So if we could keep this thread on my issues, I would appreciate it. I don't want CCW to feel attacked or put on the defensive because people are seeing us both post to this thread and it becomes a he said she said type of argument.

Let me be perfectly blunt: I, and me alone, caused the situation CCW and I currently find ourselves. For 6 years, I was the one who was not committed 100% to my marriage. I was the one who made the wrong choices over and over again. So what I am looking for is help for me to look into my issues. Help for me to ask the right questions of myself so I can get to the root of my own issues. Help for me to be a safe person moving forward for CCW and my family. I DO NOT feel (in any way whatsoever) that CCW would have done what she did had I not been so deceitful and selfish ALL THROUGH our relationship up until DDay. Therefore that is why I said earlier that I DO feel safe in that she would not repeat her transgressions. If I change and be the husband, the man, and the person she thought she fell in love with, I know in my heart I have nothing to fear.

You need to look at what you have right this moment. Can you live with that? If not, you have your answer.

Well here is where I differ in my opinion. We are still very fresh/recent from DDay. At this moment, CCW is still confused about her feelings. She agonizes daily over my actions and whether I can change...for good. Right at this moment, it's literally a flip of a coin (which we've done ironically). She wants to believe in me and believe in us. However the wounds are still fresh and there's still healing to be done. She has said she honestly wants me to change and make the changes "stick" for good so she can feel safe and we can truly R. I want nothing more than to change and for those changes to be permanent so that CCW can feel safe again.

Just me personally, I feel uncomfortable with Mrs. 1DH posting on this thread, so I'm gonna ignore her posts.

US: I apologize for making this thread feel uncomfortable, but CCW and I are working on transparency and we have agreed that we can respond to each others threads provided they don't attack one another. I do not feel CCW is attacking me in her posts in this thread. She's expressing facts about my actions over the past 6 (yes SIX years...that's a long time!) years. She's understandably bitter and upset. She offered up information regarding her actions as well. The last thing I would want is for someone (anyone) to read my posts and make me out to be a victim or somehow think I am more remorseful than CCW. She acknowledges her mistakes in our relationship as well. Compared to my indiscretions, hers were minor in comparison and I feel they were a result of what I was showing (or not showing) her.

What was happening when the switch in your head said "go for it"?

I knew it was wrong but I figured it would be something that would "stay in class" and wouldn't be an issue once I was through with the class. I realize now how that could have laid the foundation for more later. It gave the wrong impression and it could potentially lead to a slippery slope of future bad choices. I have realized I had problems setting the correct boundaries and adhering to those boundaries.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

While I appreciate input, I feel this comment is a little offensive. I would prefer this be an open dialogue about my own issues, not a back and forth between my issues and my poor BS's issues. So if we could keep this thread on my issues, I would appreciate it. I don't want CCW to feel attacked or put on the defensive because people are seeing us both post to this thread and it becomes a he said she said type of argument.

If she has reading comprehension, which I'm sure she does, she won't feel attacked at all but empowered. There is no he said she said. Just similar thought processess so actually universally applied.

You could take that exact same advice.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

I think where people get stuck is this: they give all sorts of reasons for having an affair but they’re not “really” the reasons. They say, “my husband beat me so I had an affair.” No, you had an affair because you didn’t know how to handle the stress in your life. You felt powerless so you took it upon yourself to get some power. You turned to someone else to feel good (be that validation or whatever) because you felt crappy. Doesn’t really matter HOW you got to crappy.

But what we DO need to figure out is why we turned in the affair direction, instead of a healthier direction such as IC – that’s what the WS needs to figure out. That’s the why. Not, “he did this so that’s why I did that” thing…


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3613 | Registered: Dec 2010
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

Marx: sorry I didn't want the last post to be ridiculously long.

2. I personally don't think you have worked through your 'whys' because it relies basically on 1dumbhusband's actions

4. ...but in the end it seems for all the transgressions on both sides you both want this to work.

My actions have matched my words. I'm waiting for it to be mutual.
To be frank, I don't see that at all. You lied until DDAY came so honestly I don't see that matching any actions whatsoever.

Hence, I hear a lot of blame on 1dumbhusband, and whilst it may be a possibility he gallantly says that he feels safe and it was his fault etc etc.

I think I left that part of the post to misconception: I meant he might gallantly believe that he feels safe and it was his fault for your affair but I would think that through deeper exploration of this, that may not be the case.

You can tell I think my wife is awesomely smart.

Cheating is a destination, for it to be a destination there are choices to get there. What that means is you constantly lied, outright and by admission for a couple of years. I don't see how your actions are matching your words.

I was accepted to two top tier law schools. Got married instead. I made a choice. I...made...a...choice. Part of it worked out really well, part didn't. So...next...

2. So here is something I have yet to fully grasp. When people state we haven't worked through our "why's", what more are you looking for? What other questions need pondering or answering. UnexpectedSong is asking some good ones I feel to help move this process for me. Not that you aren't, but I am just wondering how I should be looking at myself differently when addressing the "why's".

4. This is a very good observation Marx. We both want this to work. CCW is just reeling because this is still very fresh. She is confused and hurt. She's trying to hope in spite of evidence NOT to hope.

CCW has shown me more love in the past 6 years than I ever thought possible! Even though we both have actions we regret, when she said she loved me...her actions showed it. When I said the same things, my actions didn't always back up my words. I was guilty of that for a long time. I was in denial over my past actions and denial about how I was as a husband. I don't feel CCW is blame shifting, but merely stating facts. It's not being gallant accepting responsibility, for something I am clearly responsible for. I feel it's being a grown man and accepting what I did so that we can move forward. This is why I feel safe saying that had I not been a total sh*t for 6 years, CCW wouldn't have done the things she did. She is not inherently like that and her actions were uncharacteristic of who she was and who she IS. CCW is awesomely smart too! CCW could be in med school tomorrow if she wanted. She has the intelligence to breeze through med school. But she too made a choice to give up her dream to have a family with me! I hope she can heal and one day realize her dream of becoming a doctor.

For me in addition it was an instant 'fix'. How did you feel afterwards? I would feel very strange and empty. Was this the same for you?

Did you ever have stints where you tried to go cold turkey? aka "this is bad I won't let this happen again, i'll behave" How did you feel about yourself during those periods of times? Especially since you talk about feeling you were in a rebound relationship. Looking back on it now, was there any comments that were said that really made you feel that way? I've found when I did the mental inventory of this I discovered after a day of reflection that there was comments said but when using cognitive behavoural techniques they were 'false' thoughts in relation to the comments

In terms of online activities, I agree it is a temporary fix to a much deeper problem. However a good step in the right direction. I also understand the travelling part on both yourself and your wife. I know when I've gone on week travelling trips or 3 days etc it can be weird getting back into the relationship part, do you find that as well?

I did feel empty yet continued in spite of that. I did try cold turkey and even challenged myself at times to go a month or more without doing those activities. I would feel fine and eventually I would reason that going back to look a little bit wouldn't be bad but it always led to the same routine. The rebound issue was something I created in my mind because I didn't feel I was good enough. CCW (was when we met) a hot blonde and had recently divorced. Today she's a hot brunette! She didn't make comments directly about me being a rebound, but she was upfront about her marriage. She had told me she married for convenience before and that she didn't really "love" her ex. So I was apprehensive at first. However with us, I should have seen it was different. I hung onto her first words instead of judging by her actions. She bent over backwards for me, went to support me with hobbies (hockey, hunting, etc) and truly did love me. I should have seen that her actions were out of love rather than obligation. When I traveled, I would return home, spend time with CCW then go off to do hobbies. Sometimes she would tag along or watch. It was her way of being with me while I was busy being selfish. So it wasn't weird coming home but I wasn't putting my effort into the relationship like I should have!


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

I think where people get stuck is this: they give all sorts of reasons for having an affair but they’re not “really” the reasons. They say, “my husband beat me so I had an affair.” No, you had an affair because you didn’t know how to handle the stress in your life. You felt powerless so you took it upon yourself to get some power. You turned to someone else to feel good (be that validation or whatever) because you felt crappy. Doesn’t really matter HOW you got to crappy.
But what we DO need to figure out is why we turned in the affair direction, instead of a healthier direction such as IC – that’s what the WS needs to figure out. That’s the why. Not, “he did this so that’s why I did that” thing…

So I know on both mine and CCWs side, we both stated we felt we needed additional validation. For her, it's because she wasn't getting it from me because of my actions. This is why I can say I feel safe in that if my actions back up my words, I know that CCW would never have done what she did. As for me, I think I didn't know how to handle the difficult issues and difficult conversations. I know I have issues with conflict avoidance. I need to work on being more communicative and open with CCW so that she knows what I am thinking (whether good or bad). This is something I'm working on with CCW. As for your second question of why we make unhealthy choices, I think my negative self image issues led me to seek further validation. In a lot of ways, I was being selfish and immature. I had numerous hobbies which took me outside the house and neglected my wife and family. I focused only on myself instead of focusing on the family. That's something that will be changing for sure.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:49 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

I knew it was wrong but I figured it would be something that would "stay in class" and wouldn't be an issue once I was through with the class.

Do you use this thought process a lot? It will "stay in class" (stay online, on a business trip, in whatever self-contained world)?

What class was it? Something you liked or something you did not like?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

Aside from the initial, minutes-after-discovery (and really NOT meant!), "Get out!" I did not ask my husband to leave lightly. I really, really wanted to reconcile. Like you and your wife, our issues were long-term, but I wanted to reconcile; I would venture to guess that, given the six-year staying power, your wife also would have preferred that outcome.

When I did ask him to leave, I meant it, and I meant it with very little anger or acrimony. I was just done.

That said, I was also open to another reconciliation attempt, even post-separation.

I would not assume that this is a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. If she's like me, separation will offer her relief and distance and perhaps pave the way for positive growth. It's hard to say whether that will be together or apart at this point--but really, either would be better than the current situation.

I'm sorry you're facing this. I hope that it creates a positive outcome for you both.


BS-me, 52
WH(Mr. Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS17
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 7967 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
mrmarx
New Member
Member # 38357
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

Okay, I really do feel uncomfortable with the way you and your wife feel running this thread. It's really distracting, confusing and uncomfortable.

All I'm going to say is I recommend, as I've said to you both before on seperate replies. You need to figure strategies going forward. There's a lot of rug sweeping. Here's a lot of proclaiming but no strategies.

I love you but I'm not in love with you" give strategies for trust etc. that's what I'd look into

1 dumbhusband i recommend you look at cognitive behavioural therapy websites , my wife has often for her assignments used this so I'm sure that they are valid.

I wish you both the best of luck and hope you will both hopefully be able to afford individual counselling at some point. I think it is necessary.


Christ what a year!

Posts: 37 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Aus
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 2:33 AM, September 6th (Friday)

Do you use this thought process a lot? It will "stay in class" (stay online, on a business trip, in whatever self-contained world)?

What class was it? Something you liked or something you did not like?

I have used it before, yes. This class was a work training class. I was sent off for 2 weeks. Apparently, I need to make sure I don't travel anymore without my BS! Given my prior job, a case could be made for that.

Solus sto: thanks for joining the conversation. Some days, my wife feels exactly as you state. She's just done. When she asks, I comply and I leave. When she allows me to return, I promptly do so.

Marx: thanks as always for your input. Sorry for any uncomfortableness. CCW and I are working on communication so we want all things transparent. I agree the strategies need to be worked upon. I've been focusing on mine. CCW is still day to day with her feelings so we are definitely on the roller coaster still. Thank you for the input and suggestions. We're looking into ICs who are part of our insurance as a start.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
TxsT
Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 3:20 AM, September 6th (Friday)

I am like you 1DH......I will never be able to let my hubby travel alone again without me. He did so for 20 years and look where it got us???? A one way ticket to A.

This is not to say hubby can't go on the odd boys weekend. Two of his good friends have been let in on the state of our marriage and I could trust them to make sure nothing happened. Not that I don't trust hubby but having outside confirmation right now is so helpful.

T


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, September 6th (Friday)

Apparently, I need to make sure I don't travel anymore without my BS!

When did this kind of behavior start? Were your parents strict? Did you go crazy when out of their sight?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, September 6th (Friday)

When did this kind of behavior start? Were your parents strict? Did you go crazy when out of their sight?

Well the traveling was for my job (I used to be a pilot). I gave up that profession and now work as a technology software consultant. I may have an occasional trip for training or to a client site, but that's going to be rare. I know this is obviously one of my triggers to start down the path I was on, but I will find other coping or healthier choices from now on. Plus I make sure to share all browser history and electronic communication with my wife now. No, my parents weren't strict. I did talk with my BS about my past conflict avoidance and compartmentalizing behavior since childhood. I do have some FOO issues that I never dealt with or addressed.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, September 6th (Friday)

You didn't answer the question. When did you start messing around during your travels? From your first flight? A year into your flying career?

Did you ever have affairs or inappropriate behaviors locally?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, September 6th (Friday)

My apologies US, I misunderstood your question. I started my online habits before my BS and I ever got together. As far as when my online habits started, it was probably early 2000s sometime. So i was still flying, just mainly smaller planes and such. I wasn't traveling as extensively at that time. As far as meeting people from CL or my actual PA, that all started and occurred in late 2011. The meeting people occured where we regularly traveled for work (recurring weekly trips to CO) and the PA was local. I was well entrenched in my careeer then. However, even though I had not met with anyone since 2011, I was still going online and doing the same things that led me down that path in 2011 as recently as May of this year.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 12:35 AM, September 7th (Saturday)

early 2000s

So you were in your early 20s. You have been escaping your life for your entire adulthood. Add the deliberate escaping through hobbies... What is it that you fear about living your real life?

What is the longest that you have ever gone without your online habits or the later escalations?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

I think part of my escaping has been a fear of rejection and poor self image. The longest I've gone has been a couple months probably. My escalations happened while I was still in that job. Now I'm home and don't have to travel extensively for work anymore.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, September 8th (Sunday)

fear of rejection and poor self image.

Do you think your wife accepts you?

The longest I've gone has been a couple months probably. My escalations happened while I was still in that job.

So you changed jobs recently? Your DDay with that class person was June, right?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, September 8th (Sunday)

Do you think your wife accepts you?

Before, I still had doubts. Today, I know she accepted me then, and I know she does now. However I don't know if she'll be able to accept my actions and the pain and hurt I've caused her.

So you changed jobs recently? Your DDay with that class person was June, right?

At the end of 2011 I left my old profession to seek out one which would allow me to be home more often. I now work in technology consulting and most of my work is done virtually via web meetings. Correct, my DDay was in June and it was right after that class I attended. I had to attend a 2 week training class with people from other companies. The person I flirted with Inappropriately was from another company and lived in another state.

[This message edited by 1DumbHusband at 9:14 PM, September 8th (Sunday)]


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 2:08 AM, September 9th (Monday)

Now I'm home

Are you home alone during the day? Does your wife work?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6043 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, September 9th (Monday)

I typically work from an office. I was working from home over the past year on Fridays because of my 14month old. Now he's in day care and I will be working from the office all week. My wife works as well. Usually though we try to coordinate our WFH days.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
wwcrash
New Member
Member # 40843
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, October 6th (Sunday)

I'm sorry y'all are going through this. I'm a fww and in the reconciliation decision making process ( if there is such a thing).

Anyway, I wanted to just say how important a counselor is to this process! The advice you get on this site is great, but Ialways have to remind myself that everyone on here is posting from their own personal bias, typically. There are many many counselors who will see you and charge you on a sliding scale... check out United Way. You mentioned insurance.... do not wait any longer to get into counseling!! An IC for each of you and maybe a separate MC for you both together.

Best wishes.


Posts: 11 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: SE US
1DumbHusband
Member
Member # 40239
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, October 8th (Tuesday)

Thanks Crash. As an update, we are doing IC/MC with the same counselor. We have gone for 2 sessions thus far and they seem to been helping. However our C cancelled last week and its been rough not having that outlet and having things carry over to this week.


Me: FWH 34
Her: 31 and deserving much better than I've given her (CCW82)
Married 4 years, together 6 years.
D-Day: June 17th, 2013
"Don't give up. You're married until you're not. You never know what tomorrow will bring."

Posts: 121 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Dallas
Topic Posts: 55