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Just Found Out
User Topic: Pushback
Camalus
Member
Member # 40199
Sad  Posted: 7:59 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

Push back has started. Early this morning WW started saying she didn’t see much use in IC (for her) since her affair was over in ’98. She said she can “kind of” understand the need for MC but thinks the only thing really needed is for me to be in IC.

WW claims she has, since her affair ended, thought over everything that happened, learned to forgive herself and made peace with herself for her “lack of judgment”. She does not feel any additional introspection will help and may even hurt by rehashing the past.

Pardon my language but, what BULLSHIT. I was warned in IC there would likely be what the therapist calls pushback, but I was optimistic after I confronted her and thought this might not happen.

I tried to explain why I feel she needs IC and we need MC. I’m not sure my arguments made any difference. I finally told her I guessed she wasn’t interested in doing the things required to heal our marriage.

I had to leave the room to calm down.

I know I didn’t handle this right, but don’t have a clue on how I should have handled it. I think her pushback indicates she wants to sweep this under the rug and I will not let that happen.

I do not want to issue ultimatums. I like to leave a little wiggle-room, room for negotiation so to speak. But I truly think she needs IC and we need MC.

I’ve got an IC appointment Monday afternoon. Hopefully I can get some advice on how to gently handle the pushback without drawing irrevocable lines in the sand.


Me–BS age 61
Her -- WS age 59
Married for 34 years
One child, 30yrs

Her 'A' 1994(?) through 1998
D-Day 7/4/2013 Yes, I didn't find out for almost 15 years... but the pain is just as bad as if she were with him last week.


Posts: 114 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Near Houston Texas
k94ever
Member
Member # 11176
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

Wow.

I have no advise. I'm sorry she's feeling this way. It takes a very strong person to be able to do the hard work to fix themselves. It kinda sounds like she's not wanting to.

I'm sorry.

{{{{hugs}}}}

k9


BS: 56
WS: 53
Betrayed: 23 years
Affairs: 14 (2 lasted 3 months. Rest were ONS)
WS died: 16 May 2011
Do not stay in your hurt forever. Choose to move out of it.

Posts: 6518 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: Wisconsin
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

It may hurt to "rehash the past?" Hurt who? Her? Oh well. You? You're already hurt.

She's going to want to rugsweep.

To Hell with THAT.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7314 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

Well aren't you the lucky one. She has already forgiven and healed herself, so all the hard work is done. Un.effing.believable.

TC, I know that you do not like ultimatums, and you have handled yourself very well so far, but ask yourself, if she is unwilling to meet your needs of her going to IC, is it an eventual dealbreaker? Or can you accept that she will do as she sees fit?

If the answer is that you will never accept this, than her attending IC is an ultimatum---it just doesn't have a specific deadline.

Don't be afraid to draw lines in the sand for what you perceive as your minimum and basic needs. And as far as I am concerned, this is not a remorseful wife that you are dealing with, but a broken one who is able to compartmentalize with the best of them. Zero empathy, and willing to take her disgusting secret with her to her grave....while leaving you and your daughter to deal with the fallout.

This is exactly where the ultimatums need to be applied----right after discovery. The longer that you let her draw this out, the longer that it harms the potential recovery for all involved. I've always hated the "I've forgiven myself" line when no work has been done to find out what was wrong in the first place. That is why murder has no statute of limitation on it...because elapsed time doesn't make everything okay.

She murdered your marriage, and has not faced her consequences. Don't allow that to continue.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 9:02 AM, September 8th (Sunday)]


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2042 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

So sorry TC. DB is dead on. It's up to you what you are willing to negotiate. I do think that a trip or two to MC since she is willing may be in order. Perhaps then she can gain a little understanding of how you feel and what she really did to her family.

She was able to box it up all nice and neat and put it in storage and go on with life. The real question is after ending it did she truly gain perspective understand what she did and at some fundamental level change who she was? I think we all know the answer to that, but she obviously feels other wise. So I would table IC for now do a couple of MC sessions make her read a few books and then renegotiate in 30 days. She is probably very self involved at this time with her illness and surgeries.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
myownmaster
New Member
Member # 35317
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, September 8th (Sunday)

You don't want to give ultimatums, you want to leave wiggle room and you want to be gentle.

I understand the different dynamics you face with it being an affair that ended long ago...but where your R goes from here will have the same trajectory as most R's.

1. You let her "wiggle" her way out of most of what you want in the hopes of healing the marriage. Things do get rugswept in effect. You either live with it and it eventually isn't brought up anymore and you realize you're fine with that or you begin to really resent her and the marriage becomes worse and worse until there isn't much of a marriage left.

2. You stand up for what you want and she either eventually sees how important it is to do what you are asking for or she continues to scoff at your requests and it may eventually lead to the end of your relationship.

Do you really see another fork in the road here? Again, I understand that you probably don't even want to think about losing her. It did happen a while ago. Being single at 60 isn't the ideal outcome for you. Understandable. However, you're in a state of denial yourself perhaps. Sure, take as much time as you'd like to take the steps you think you need to take, but what outcome do you see exactly with you applying these gentle tactics with wiggle room and such? Just as any WS, she's gonna sniff it out and work your gentleness and unwillingness to possibly blow things up to her advantage.

Tough position you find yourself in. Might not be the perfect happy ending that you're seeking. Deep down, you're gonna know what you really want and what you need to do to get that result. Knowing and doing are two different things, however.


Posts: 46 | Registered: Apr 2012
Broken6
Member
Member # 40347
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, September 8th (Sunday)

I hope she comes to her senses. The gift you gave her for staying after such a betrayal is more than anyone in that position should expect. You took the high ground, and no matter what the timing is, I think the WS should always come up to meet it. We are in a situation now where the A was fresh, only ended a little over a month ago, and he is trying to rugsweep. Tells me that we cannot move forward if I continue to bring it up. I printed an article from this site last night about remorse and rugsweeping, and plan to have him read it. I hope that IC can give you the advice you need to coax her back into MC. I realize that during R, both parties need to have their needs met, but in the end, I have to go back to the beginning, how did we even find ourselves here in the first place? The WS needs to look in the mirror. I send hugs, and wish you strength.


The grass isn't greener on the other side, it is greener where you water it.

Posts: 58 | Registered: Aug 2013
Camalus
Member
Member # 40199
Evil  Posted: 7:36 AM, September 9th (Monday)

Well, I figured it out overnight.

This morning I asked if she had made a decision on IC and MC. She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.

My response: It is your decision. I am sorry you don’t think our marriage is worth trying to save.

Then I walked out of the room.

Now she says she will make appointments before the end of the day.


Me–BS age 61
Her -- WS age 59
Married for 34 years
One child, 30yrs

Her 'A' 1994(?) through 1998
D-Day 7/4/2013 Yes, I didn't find out for almost 15 years... but the pain is just as bad as if she were with him last week.


Posts: 114 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Near Houston Texas
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, September 9th (Monday)

TNC - Good for you.

Sometimes they just have to see how much they can get away with. When you start to feel stronger, and can make statements like that, it makes you realize that you really are dealing with someone who is like a small child.

((((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
kannan
Member
Member # 36057
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, September 9th (Monday)

so, she cheated because of lack of judgement and she forgived herself for that.

Posts: 139 | Registered: Jul 2012
painpaingoaway
Member
Member # 27196
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, September 9th (Monday)

Now she says she will make appointments before the end of the day.
Great news.

TNC, now is the time to ask for everything that you think you will need to heal over the next few years. And yes, it will take years. She needs to understand that.

I would also be very very careful choosing MC/IC, because some can do more harm than good, and that happened in my case, and I can tell you, it was a major setback for us. So, put in place a 'condition' that if after 2 or 3 sessions, either one of you do not like the counselor (for any reason) that you will find another. And yes, some times you will have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a good MC, that specializes in infidelity issues.

When we left the first asshole MC, I then started calling various ones, and I literally 'interviewed' them over the phone to find out what 'approach' they used toward infidelity issues. Then, at the first session, I took a copy of Linda McDonalds book, "How to Help Your Spouse heal from your Affair", asked them to take it home and read it, (it is super short), and at the second session, I asked if they agreed with the ideas in the book, and if they would be able/willing to guide our healing based on the principles of the book.

I highly recommend doing this. It will save time, money, and a lot of heartache to know right up front whether or not the MC will be able to help you heal your marriage in the way you need to be helped.

(Also, if your wife has not yet read that book, have her read it ASAP). My H literally thanked me for giving him the book, he said it really helped him to understand things from my perspective.

I wish you well my friend.

PPGA


me BS female 56/him WS 59
Married 33 years
D-day July 09/he gave me his slut's STD
Watch my movie: "My wayward husband's adventures in STD land":
Episode 1: youtu.be/9Jv0-d_CdYc
Episode 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tz822H82Gk

Posts: 7056 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Coastal South
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 8:11 AM, September 9th (Monday)

She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.

Wow. Where is her empathy? What she has said is all about her. Where do you fit in to all this in her mind? She is healed. She has forgiven herself. It's ancient history to her. Just where are you in her thoughts?


....and the worst of all, she has minimised a 2.5-3 year long betrayal into just a 'lack of judgement' on her part.


tirednconfused, I think you do have to push the IC route because your wife isn't getting it yet. She needs to face what she has done and find out why she did what she did. Also she's not displaying any empathy, and I don't think she has realised yet just how serious this is for the both of you. It's still all about her - and she hasn't realised (or given enough thought to) the fact that this is not 'ancient history' to you.


So I do think you have to be strong about demanding some IC for her. Have you gotten any books for her to read? For example 'How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda MacDonald - or maybe some of the articles from our own Healing Library?

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 8:27 AM, September 9th (Monday)]


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1864 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, September 9th (Monday)

Nearly Exh said just about those exact words.

I don't want to imply that it's the same for you, but what it meant here was that he was all done with me and choosing OW. He decided he had had enough "discussing it" and he decided the counselors were all wrong about his problems and since OW accepted his crap, that's where he went.

I also tried to "nice" him home, to give room...I made myself physically sick trying to save the life and marriage we had, but none of it worked.

I hope it will work for you.

What I notice now is that he notices my silence more than my words. He took me for granted. No more.

I only hope that you won't give too much of yourself away or make yourself crazy trying to fix things.

And good leaving the room to calm down-unfortunately, it shows that you realize she may not be there to help in your healing. The more quiet or sort of stone-faced you can be around her, the better you may fare. The more drama she sees, the more she may turn.

Unfortunately, also, these things all became signs.

[This message edited by Ashland13 at 10:26 AM, September 9th (Monday)]


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess

Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.

-George Washington


Posts: 2204 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, September 9th (Monday)

This morning I asked if she had made a decision on IC and MC. She again said she sees no reason to bring up ‘ancient history’.
My response: It is your decision. I am sorry you don’t think our marriage is worth trying to save.

Then I walked out of the room.


Perfectly handled.

Had you backed down, this would have been the first in a long line of your WW's backpedaling.
You can't "gentle" or "nice" her back into the marriage. Taking a firm, hard stance at the beginning is often the only way to shake the WS out of their flawed thinking.

Good for you!


Me - 40s
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 40s. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - R looks possible..

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6367 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
1Faith
Member
Member # 38975
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, September 9th (Monday)

Stand you ground and set your boundaries.

If IC is a deal breaker for you then that is fine.

Your WW needs to be doing whatever you need to feel like R is possible. WHATEVER.

She is attempting to rug sweep to mitigate her actions and behaviors. She wants to forget her selfish behavior and lies.

Hang in there and be strong.

We are all rooting for you.


"I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it." - Maya Angelou

Posts: 1105 | Registered: Apr 2013
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, September 9th (Monday)

Nicely handled.

Brass tacks, we cannot make another adult do one damned thing. None of us has that power. But the power we do have, is to make decisions about what we can and cannot accept for ourselves. And to be true to ourselves. So, yes, she may decide at some point that she doesn''t want to be transparent to you any more. That she wants her own private passwords. That she doesn''t want to go to IC/MC any more. And those are all decisions that she, as an adult, can make for herself. Just as you can make the decision that if she exercises her right, as an adult, to not do any of those things, then you decide, for your own health''s sake, that you cannot live with her, cannot be married to her, or whatever works for your own sake.

It''s not being mean. It''s not being hard-assed. It''s about drawing healthy boundaries for yourself.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4719 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
TheNothing
New Member
Member # 40616
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, September 9th (Monday)

You are a very patient man, and her attitude is selfish. Kudos to you for how you handled things and stood firm on your boundaries.


BS(me): 34
WH: 42
4 kids: 8,6,4, and a newborn
D-day: Aug 2013...new and raw

Posts: 7 | Registered: Sep 2013
stronger08
Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 8:05 PM, September 9th (Monday)

I love how they forgive themselves so simply. Especially after they drop an atomic bomb on your emotions. A lack of judgment is not locking your car door with your cell in it. Not allowing another man to stick his penis inside of her. I would not care if her A happened 50 years ago. Its still new for you. I'm sorry this woman does not have any remorse. And is probably one of the most selfish people I've heard of. It pisses me off to no end how they package up all their bullshit into neat little boxes and label them with such tags as Lack of judgment, ancient history, mistakes etc. My XWW could not and would not even call what she did affairs. She liked to refer to them as dating or seeing. I finally had enough and told her "When your M and go out and fuck another guy its called having an A you dumb bitch" Don't allow her to play word semantics with you. It might make her sleep better at night. But it certainly does not help you in any way.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5612 | Registered: Nov 2007
Topic Posts: 18