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User Topic: Why is it hypocrisy for a WS to teach children not to cheat?
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, September 13th (Friday)

I read often that BSes find it hypocritical that WS parents would teach the children not to cheat/lie/whatever. What is the preferred behavior when a child cheats/lies/whatever? What should a WS tell the child?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, September 13th (Friday)

It is hyprocrisy, imo, if the WS is still an actively wayward spouse. Or an XWS still involved with an AP. You would still want the WS to teach the children to not lie/cheat/steal whatever, but c'mon, it is a wee bit hypocritical. Do as I say, don't do as I do.

If it is a former WS than I don't find it hypocritical at all.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9668 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, September 13th (Friday)

What is the preferred behavior when a child cheats/lies/whatever? What should a WS tell the child?

I guess it would be "hypocritical" because we are in a position where we couldn't "practice what we preached". However, I guarantee you that if our advice to our misbehaving child was, "Meh. Screw consequences. Do what you want." the reaction would be less than stellar.

I think for some WS, we're danged if we do, danged if we don't. Sad really.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6237 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, September 13th (Friday)

I read often that BSes find it hypocritical that WS ...

So ignore the plural and focus on the only one whose opinion matters to you.

I personally think that if it is fine for a former addict/alcoholic/gang member/whatever to warn children of the dangers of their own mistakes...


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, September 13th (Friday)

Okay. Of course it is hypocritical. But, as Aubrie said, what are we supposed to say? "It's okay. As long as you're not caught, you can cheat/lie/steal/whatever." ?

Active WS or former WS... it makes no sense that one would be criticized for still teaching the child the right thing.

I don't find it hypocritcal for anyone who has ever inhaled to tell the child not to. Or not to smoke. Or gamble. Or drink. Or swear. Or whatever.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, September 13th (Friday)

So ignore the plural and focus on the only one whose opinion matters to you

You're right.

I shouldn't be posting now. I'm in a pissy mood.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 5:42 PM, September 13th (Friday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Simple
Member
Member # 18814
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, September 13th (Friday)

If my children ever lie/cheat/whatever, I think BOTH me and my FWS would sit down with them (could be separate instances) and explain the consequences of that action on BOTH sides. No way would I hide the truth from both sides from my kids, the destruction, etc.

We actually plan to have this conversation with our kids when they are old enough to understand and are starting to have relationships.

Again this is FWS, so I don't believe it's hypocritical at all, I think kids need to at a minimum know what NOT to do! I see it as learning from a person that failed at a challenge so you don't make the same mistake they did.

[This message edited by Simple at 6:29 PM, September 13th (Friday)]


Love is a choice.

True love is harder to come by than soul mates. True love requires work.

Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. There is no cure for being an idiot.


Posts: 927 | Registered: Mar 2008
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, September 13th (Friday)

Hypocritical or not, still necessary to try to tell the child the best values you can. The child will form his or her own values, but you want to give the child the best head start. The child, if s/he knows the history, might (or might not) become upset with the messenger, but it doesn't change that it's a good message.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
hobbeskat
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Member # 38805
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, September 13th (Friday)

In a way, I think the WS is best placed to impart that wisdom- they're the ones who know the devastation their actions can cause.

Posts: 308 | Registered: Mar 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, September 13th (Friday)

Of course it is hypocritical

Why? Why is it hypocritical. So because I used to use a diaper I can't potty train my children? Seriously?

So a parent that's had an at fault accident or speeding ticket can't teach their kid to drive? A person that's spent too much money and saw how fucked that is can't teach a kid how to budget?

Jesus. We often grow the most from the shit we had to fix from our epic failures.

I'd think it would be actually quite effective. "Hey, I fucked up royally and devasted your mother/father/family. When you make these choices it's catastrophic and never works out. Here's what you need to look at and focus on when you find yourself using these thought processes".

How do you teach someone something by saying "I never did it. It's wrong. Don't do it”? "Well, Mom/Dad what did you when you were faced with this and had those thought processes?""I just said no because I have character and morals". Yeah, thanks. Guess I won't go to them for help when I'm struggling.

Thanks, Simple. That's a great post.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, September 13th (Friday)

The child, if s/he knows the history, might (or might not) become upset with the messenger, but it doesn't change that it's a good message.

I love this!


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
doesitgetbetter
Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, September 13th (Friday)

I think it's absolutely the BEST person to tell a child the value of being honest/faithful/whatever. I will qualify that statement by saying that I think this is only true if the WS is a FWS and has truly recognized the damage their actions have caused.

Why is the WS the best? Because they KNOW the consequences of their actions. They saw how hurt people were because of what they did, they saw how they could have avoided their situation, they saw how easy it was to take the wrong path and likely saw how easy it would have been to just take the right one instead.

Who would be better to teach someone about the perils of smoking... someone who's never laid eyes on a cigarette before, or someone who's smoked, had lung cancer, and is dealing with having to go through life with a tube in their throat? Who will teach others with more impactful information? Who will relate better to those they are teaching? Kinda like getting sex ed from the nuns.... ya, uh huh, like they know anything. LOL (No offense to nuns, they just don't know how it all works in real world experiences)


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
FR2012
Member
Member # 36345
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, September 13th (Friday)

Being a FWW, I know the consequences of my actions if it happens again. So who better to teach and instill into a child than the person that screwed up to begin with.


BH (him): 28 ~ FWW (me): 27
Together 9 years
2 kids
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Posts: 167 | Registered: Aug 2012
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:12 PM, September 13th (Friday)

What is the preferred behavior when a child cheats/lies/whatever? What should a WS tell the child?

That "cheating/lying/whatever is wrong." Period.

What happens AFTER that is where it might messy, though. IMO, a fWS can skate right through this because s/he is practicing what they preach. If a former *whatever* wants to lecture my kid? Good. More power to them because they are the ones that can say "kid, I BTDT. NOT a good option and here's why...."

It gets more dicey though if the WS is still a WS. It is still a proper message to give to the child, but if the child knows/senses/willfindout about the *cheating/lying/whatever* of the person imparting the message, then it's going to potentially end up causing some trouble.....and that's where the *hypocrite* thing could rear its head.

(this has reminded me of *high-lying season* with stbx--Casey Anthony/election year. The lies and mis-information were flying all over the airwaves and I just remember standing in my kitchen listening to stbx ranting about "people not just telling the truth because their lies are sooooo obvious!" Oh.My. Fun times.....)


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8007 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:34 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

If there is any hypocrisy, I think it is more important that the parent suck up the hit to the image their children have of them than it is to rugsweep potential problems their children are facing to protect their own ego.

If Napoleon were alive today, I am sure he would tell me not to invade Russia, and there would be no hypocrisy at all. Had he sent me a letter from near Moscow saying not to invade Russia and explaining that he had made that same mistake, and was now stuck dealing with the ramifications of that decision and it was a really bad idea and he wishes he never started out on that path and it was difficult to get out of that mess, that would still be a powerful message. It would totally suck if he thought I was going to invade Russia and just sorta went "Cool dude, good luck with that". It is the difference between being a guide or mentor and being an enabler.

I know, Napoleon invading Russia seems kinda random, but I am running out of metaphors for people giving good advice that they themselves failed to follow, and it seems a little offensive to always fall back on addictions or crime or something. Not to imply that WS's are like overly aggressive military dictators.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Trying33
Member
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 3:05 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

Great thread.

We must teach our children the right way of doing things even though we may not have done those things ourselves. Is it hypocritical? Of course it is, but tonnes of things we do as parents are hypocritical.

I drink diet coke and love it. My kids will watch me drink it and ask for some and I will say "No, it's really bad for you" That's sending a confusing message obviously but I don't wants my pre-schoolers drinking aspartame.

FWS or not, we all have an obligation to our young children to teach them right from wrong. We can work on our own wrongs in the meantime. This is just my personal opinion.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
Landoes
Member
Member # 40222
Default  Posted: 3:08 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

No one knows the consequences of lying and cheating more than a WS. I think it's fitting. If you explain how those actions hurt others blah blah..

Posts: 70 | Registered: Aug 2013
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 6:01 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

When the words match the deeds, I can't see why that would be considered hypocrisy.
Whey they don't....well the results will likely speak for themselves. This goes for anyone wishing to teach or influence the development of children.

What should a WS tell the child?

It's not what the WS "tells" the child that matters, It's what they show/model.

Children know the difference. And they will imitate accordingly.

It has been my observation having worked with children, and watching them grow into adulthood that "Do as I say not as I do" is rarely an effective teaching strategy.

I am pretty sure that most often the kids I have taught, have mainly heard the "Peanuts" version of my voice.


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

I don't think it's hypocritical for a FWS to tell a child not to lie/cheat/steal. I look at it as being like the old Scared Straight program. You know, a bunch of cons telling these wannabe gangsters/criminals *exactly* what they'll be in for if they continue down that path.

And a message *does* have more impact from someone who's BTDT and has firsthand knowledge of the consequences. If the child comes off with "Well YOU did" the FWS can come right back with a first hand account of how screwed up it was and how much pain and devastation it caused, both to the BS and themselves.

As was said before, it's only hypocritical if the WS is still actively a WS.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5890 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Sad in AZ
Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

My personal observation is that BSs get angry when the WS pontificates about cheating. It's one thing to say "If you lie to me, there will be consequences." It's another thing to get up on the proverbial soapbox and launch a diatribe at your kids about the evils of cheating when you're actively schtuping someone who is not your spouse.


I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 20181 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

I've seen many posts of BS's quite upset their spouse has the balls to talk to their kids or get upset at their kids about lying, cheating (even on tests) where the WS is not in current behavior. Some of these have turned into pages. This along with are WS's good parents.

Good news, though. People's opinions are just that. Those who do work on themselves see clearly who they are, where they've been and where they're going. While you can love someone you also need to let their view of you be just that. Theirs. Continue to parent the way "you" feel is right. That's "your" job. No one can take it from you.

Sad, I know you know it's not just non-remorseful waywards that get hit. We get lumped quite often. Luckily I believe only half I hear and next to nothing I read. Hell, more than just a few times, especially when reading consistent thought processes on display I think to myself, wonder when that poster's "WS" will have their d day.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, September 14th (Saturday)

I know I have struggled, especially early after DDay, with feeling like a hypocrite when it comes to dealing with issues with my girls. That being said, I actually think that with everything HT and I been through and the work that we both have done, we are better parents for it.

Most people that read my posts know that I usually will apply my own personal experience to attempt to get my point across. It's similar with the kids. I try to apply the knowledge I have and present it in a way that we can somewhat relate to each other. My kids understand that I am a flawed human being. They know that I have made poor decisions in my life. They also know that those decisions have hurt other people. Whenever I have a sit down with either one of them I explain that my hopes are that they can learn these valuable life lessons early rather than wait until their 30's or 40's like I have. My eldest daughter had even commented that is spooky that I can get inside her head the way I do.

I also truly believe that all the work that HT and I have done, all the talks we have had, all the openness we now share, he has become much more understanding of our girl's behavior. Now that doesn't mean that it doesn't drive either one of us bat shit crazy from time to time, but I feel he can see where it is coming from. He has often times said (in humor...sort of ) I wonder where she gets that from?

If it was considered hypocrisy to teach the lessons you have learned from poor decisions in your life, organizations such as AA or NA would not exist. Quite frankly, this site would look very different. I know when someone gives me advice I want to know that they have some sort of understanding of my situation. That they aren't just pulling shit from a hat at random. I want to know that they have some sort experience to offer to the table. So I take parenting with the same approach. I have experience and knowledge on the subject to offer. On important matters I want them to know why I say what I do.

So we can either claim hypocrisy and sit idly watching the cycle continue with our children, or we can be proactive and hope that something we say or show our children sticks with them and they have a better chance of becoming better human beings for it.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 685 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, September 14th (Saturday)

It would be difficult if not impossible for me to respect the active drug user who is telling me "don't do drugs". I would likely view them more as a cautionary tale, rather than a reliable resource.

I also think the tendency for a BS to hammer a FORMER WS on hypocrisy is probably born more out of anger than of reasoning. It's a very emotional response.

I can only speak for myself here, but when my FWS was having these discussions with our kids, I felt strongly that it he be the one to do it. I am not unique or special, so I doubt that I am alone in this.

I feel pretty good about the fact that my FWS is modeling a path to fixing what may be broken. He is showing our children that you may make bad decisions, though you strive to do your best, you might not. It's not at all the same as permission to do wrong and then fix it and all is happily ever after. It's the idea that you can find redemption and hope when all feels lost. He is showing them you must first own it and that it will be hard....for a very long time it will be painful. But with consistency, introspection, patience and a little self love, one can turn the ship around and make better decisions today, that will lead to better decisions in the future. I'm modeling the other side of the coin. I can't be sure exactly how they will process it all, I can only hope that they will dump out the stuff that's not helpful and keep the lessons that will be of benefit. But they probably have their own poor choices to make somewhere along the way.

A FWS is very well equipped to show/tell why lying, cheating leads to some negative consequences. I would think that once a person enters the category of "former" anything they have a valuable insight on a particular topic that someone without that experience lacks.

I still think that "showing" the path will make the greatest impact. I suppose that isn't the issue here, but I mention it, as I think most of FWS's have had to find a way to make their words match their actions.

We advise BS's here to watch actions, because we have learned that words are often misleading. I see this as pertinent because kids have an uncanny ability to call us out on the "inconsistencies" of what we say and what we do. If we are to teach them anything at all....we need to make sure that our own words and deeds "match". It is only hypocrisy when a parent is acting virtuous, but behaving in the opposite manner.... and most children, while they may not be able to put a name to it, are able to detect it.

[This message edited by refuz2bavictim at 12:54 PM, September 14th (Saturday)]


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
UnexpectedSong
Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, September 14th (Saturday)

I don't plan on telling my kids about my A.

I will just do what I've always done - teach them what I think is right. Take what works, leave the rest.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6098 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Syzy
Member
Member # 15190
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, September 14th (Saturday)

We are all hypocrites if we use that term to mean we behave in ways contrary to the ideals we espouse. Technically that’s not what hypocrisy means. Rather it refers to claiming to believe something different than what one believes.

However that said I think it is especially relevant to teach someone not to go down a path one has gone down. My ex's daughter stole from a store when caught she was crushed by her own behavior and the consequences. My ex having been a liar, a cheat and a thief consoled her and talked about her own journey down that path and why it is one not to take. I think there can be redemption in that. A way to show someone that all is not lost but there are consequences that aren't worth it.

[This message edited by Syzy at 4:35 PM, September 14th (Saturday)]


BS
Dday Aug 17, 2006
R - what's that.
Me - Moved on long ago.
It takes two to make it work, but only one to fuck it up.

Posts: 945 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: So Cal
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, September 14th (Saturday)

A way to show someone that all is not lost but there are consequences that aren't worth it.

Wow, syzy! This is beautiful!!!


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, September 14th (Saturday)

I don't plan on telling my kids about my A.

I hope you didn't misinterpret my post. My kids don't know about my A. When I talk to them about issues it stays on their level. My sharing about decisions I've made remains vague, however the lessons learned are clear. I just try to come at it from the angle of empathy and understanding. I don't want to be a super hero to them. I want to be someone that they feel they can come to with a problem and I will listen to them. I want to be someone that they trust can help them with that problem because I too have had struggles and I can understand where they may be coming from, but in the same token let them know what my expectations are.

I see no benefit in telling my girls about my A. But I do see benefit in letting them know that Mom (or Dad) are real human beings that make mistakes and actually live through it. That when we make decisions there can be consequences or rewards. That it is on only ourselves and not others when we choose.

My girls fight a lot. They want me to pick sides. I refuse to do it. My question to them is always "what is your part?" They hate it but I think they are starting to get my point. I want them to be responsible for their own actions. No blame shifting allowed! Doesn't always work, but it is a work in progress.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 685 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 12:07 AM, September 15th (Sunday)

Why is it hypocrisy for a WS to teach children not to cheat?
By definition, hypocrisy is the false claim of having admirable principles. Technically, it is not hypocrisy for someone guilty of an offense to warn others of it's lack of virtue. They may not necessarily be best suited to tell them how not to cheat, but by experience are very well suited to tell them what it is like to be a cheater if they would choose to be honest about it.

The hypocrisy would only lie in a claim of not being guilty of the same. Not really semantics, depending on how the lesson is taught.


Posts: 1211 | Registered: Feb 2011
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, September 15th (Sunday)

I've seen many posts of BS's quite upset their spouse has the balls to talk to their kids or get upset at their kids about lying, cheating (even on tests) where the WS is not in current behavior. Some of these have turned into pages.

PAGES. Right, cuz more is better.


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 382 | Registered: Nov 2010
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, September 15th (Sunday)

No it is not!
Whoever is trying to shove this down your throat just needs to stop trying to hurt you

I think the one person who has made the ultimate mistake is going to be more stand fast to the dont lie dont cheat.

Hugs doll....


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3187 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, September 15th (Sunday)

As a parent I'm certainly not perfect - I find myself telling DD to do things that I myself struggle with (see: clean your room)

I think when it comes to kids, if we believe what we are teaching in our hearts they will feel it.


I bow to those who keep their hearts open when it is most difficult, those who refuse to keep their armor on any longer than they have to, those who recognize the courage at the heart of vulnerability. - Jeff Brown

Posts: 17376 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Topic Posts: 31