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Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, September 26th (Thursday)

This thread is restricted to MadHatter's Only.

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silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, September 26th (Thursday)

Thank you mods!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, September 27th (Friday)

Yes, thank you for the new thread, mods!!

It seems that he feels sorry for, in his words, "doing things that upset you." So the sense is he'll feel sorry, after I express that it's more about *hurt* than *anger*, that he upset me... But never about the things themselves. Sees nothing wrong with them. I'm not sure what to make of that.

To me, it almost sounds like what he is sorry for is the consequences of his cheating. A couple of those consequences are you feeling hurt and you being angry. Fear of consequences and sorrow for consequences can prevent a person from cheating again. That, I can personally attest to. I think he might be a happier and healthier person if he were to dig a bit deeper and find the root cause of his waywardness and fix that part of himself. Once you go through that process, the fear of consequences tends to go away, because boundaries become so much clearer, and sorrow for consequences tends to be pushed to the side, with remorse for past behavior and personal flaws becoming more of focal point. I feel like I am probably preaching to the choir when I say these things to you, though, Silver. You've got that stuff down pat.

On the one hand, he told me a long time ago that we shouldn't use the words "mine" and "yours" to describe each other, though that changed later.

What made him change his mind about this?

He likes it when I give him space. I've got a whole host of feelings about things that I wish we had in our relationship, and it hurts knowing that he's capable of enjoying those things... But obviously not with me. But it's just a separate part of his mind, perhaps.

Sounds like there's a bit of compartmentalization going on there. I like my space as well. I'm a very introverted person, and I need time to myself to "recharge", so to speak. I often times use compartmentalization to get inside of my own head space and shut myself off to as much of the outside world as I can. One thing I need to be careful of is compartmentalizing my wife out of my safety and recharge zone. One thing that helps is visualizing what initially drew me to her when I first met her 18 years ago. At that time in my life, any amount of time that I spent with her would recharge my mental batteries. Are there any activities that you and your husband did when you first started dating that you haven't done in awhile? For my wife and I, it was going to movies. We rarely do that anymore, but used to do it all the time when we were first dating. Next week we have a date night planned, where we are going to get a sitter and go out to the movies, like old times.

I wonder how he sees relationships. I wonder what he thinks they're all about. He hates it when I try to talk to him about this kind of stuff. Prefers leaving things unsaid. How do you ask questions or share with someone who prefers things to be unsaid?

Has he told you that he hates it when you try to talk about this stuff, or is this something you've kind of picked up from observing him? Sometimes what we communicate outwardly is opposite of what we feel inwardly. One example would be my wife buying me clothes. I'll tell her things like, "I hate the fact that you feel like you need to dress me." Or, "Just let me pick out my own shit out for once. I like the jeans from Costco, and they're dirt cheap." Inwardly, though, I am really thankful that she has a fashion sense and gets me clothes that look nice and are masculine and affordable at the same time. I'd be a lost cause without her when it comes to that. Not sure if that totally makes sense, or if it applies in your husband's case or not.

Or maybe the problem is that I don't listen to him the right way. I've wondered that sometimes. Or maybe I haven't done enough standing in his shoes so I can understand his values and feel compassion instead of judgmental. I don't feel he listens to me, but that's not something I have control over. Maybe I need to help him open up by learning how to listen to him and value his voice FIRST.

Listening is always a good thing. Trying to figure out different ways of listening is a really great practice, and a really superb idea. I'm a big proponent of communication, and I think the most important part of communication is listening. People speak and communicate in so many different forms and manners. Building up our listening skills to match those forms of communication has to be a good thing. I'm convinced of that.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Thank you Losfer.

I think he might be a happier and healthier person if he were to dig a bit deeper and find the root cause of his waywardness and fix that part of himself. Once you go through that process, the fear of consequences tends to go away, because boundaries become so much clearer, and sorrow for consequences tends to be pushed to the side, with remorse for past behavior and personal flaws becoming more of focal point.

I agree. I certainly think he ought to look into the whys. I would imagine it would give him more control over his life if he did, and then the changes would be out of personal values rather than fear of consequences (and yes, I think that's what he's reacting to - the consequences rather than his original choices).

But from his perspective, cheating or skating boundary lines might feel like a benefit to him. What does he get out of it? Maybe a sense of freedom. Maybe he values his freedom because it translates to "escape". He says now that he wants to settle down, that he likes where he is in life. So I think he stays because he likes this lifestyle. That's what he's getting out of being faithful right now. Almost like he considers the other days a different time and different lifestyle and perfectly reasonable ones. Wish I could get into his mind and see and get it.

What made him change his mind about this?

I'm honestly not sure. It seemed like the more connected he felt to 'us', the more he wanted to call me 'his' and let me call him 'my'. Especially since we've gotten married, it's been more solidly about 'mine' and 'yours'. But any time there's an argument, especially about infidelity, he becomes more standoffish, and then that's when the stuff like "I can talk to anyone I want!" and "I guess I still felt single" comes out.

Are there any activities that you and your husband did when you first started dating that you haven't done in awhile?

We would take long walks sometimes. We'd do that when I was pregnant too. Sometimes movies. It's a little triggery for different reasons, but I do miss doing those things together. I wish we would again. I've asked him at times if we could go out, do things. Maybe if I asked him if we could go to Target... He's always down for a long walk to Target.

Has he told you that he hates it when you try to talk about this stuff, or is this something you've kind of picked up from observing him?

Both. He'll say things like "you always have to bring up every little thing I ever did and use it against me!" and he typically leaves the room when I talk to any relationship stuff or anything heavy (infidelity, even in movies, porn, etc), even in a lighthearted tone. Very frustrating. He'll literally leave when I'm in mid-sentence. Maybe he feels overwhelmed. Not sure how to make it less overwhelming. Sometimes he'll come back with a retort, others he'll return and act like the discussion was never brought up. Maybe that's the key. When he comes back with his response, maybe I need to just listen. It *feels* like he's rugsweeping with his responses, but maybe I need to listen more carefully... So painful knowing that he can dismiss what he did with the other girls as "I was just..." I get the impression he really wasn't thinking of our relationship at all, 'we' either didn't exist or existed in a separate box. Definitely compartmentalizing.

People speak and communicate in so many different forms and manners.

They really do. What tools do people use to learn another person's language? I don't know how to read him. Need help. At this point, he has said 'no' to CC.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:44 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Always makes me happy to see this thread getting some attention.

What does he get out of it? Maybe a sense of freedom. Maybe he values his freedom because it translates to "escape".

I think the terms "escape" and "coping mechanism" are pretty tightly coupled. There are definitely healthier ways to escape and cope. Has he replaced any of his wayward behavior with healthy outlets?

He says now that he wants to settle down, that he likes where he is in life. So I think he stays because he likes this lifestyle. That's what he's getting out of being faithful right now.

One way to possibly look at his perspective is in the context of "values". It sounds like he has gotten to a point where he likes being settled down into a married lifestyle. Perhaps one of the reasons he is no longer cheating is because he not only likes the lifestyle, but he also values his marriage and family? I don't want to speak for your husband, but that might possibly be how he feels, and maybe isn't getting his point across.

But any time there's an argument, especially about infidelity, he becomes more standoffish, and then that's when the stuff like "I can talk to anyone I want!" and "I guess I still felt single" comes out.

That's rough... my wife had a couple of similar phrases come out when she started looking at OM's facebook page almost a year into R. She said basically that she was a grown up, and she could look at whatever she wanted. After about 2-3 weeks of hard thinking, and some intense IC sessions, I decided that was one of my limits and boundaries. I didn't want pictures of the OM in my house. I didn't want to be married to someone who wasn't having mental detachment and mental NC with the OM. I guess what my long-winded point is, only you can control what you are willing to put up with, and where to draw your boundaries.

We would take long walks sometimes.

Long walks with a loved one is nature's therapy, free of charge. Doesn't hurt to throw Target into the mix! I like to surf the clearance endcaps on the back of the aisles, myself.

He'll say things like "you always have to bring up every little thing I ever did and use it against me!" and he typically leaves the room when I talk to any relationship stuff

This is what I refer to as "checking out". I'm really not sure how to work past this, as I've never really had to deal with it. Are you in IC? If so, maybe your IC could give you some advice. Hopefully someone with some experience in this department will respond to this thread as well.

What tools do people use to learn another person's language? I don't know how to read him. Need help. At this point, he has said 'no' to CC.

I'm not sure what tools can be used. My method is practice, practice, and more practice. If one method of communication isn't working, change it up a bit. In the past, I've resorted to communicating with my wife via email when things were just too painful and raw to talk about firsthand. Another idea that I've heard but never used is the "fishbowl" technique. Get a fishbowl, or other container, and write down topics of conversation on pieces of paper and add them to the fishbowl. Agree to draw one or two out a day and discuss them. Just a couple of ideas. Good luck to you with getting your husband to open up.


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silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 11:02 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Has he replaced any of his wayward behavior with healthy outlets?

Hmm. He plays a lot of video games. He says I'm his favorite person to play video games with, and that's his favorite hobby, so maybe that helps him. He does a bunch of housework - laundry and cooking, and says he likes to. Smokes a lot. In terms of freedom, he goes out every Wednesday to see his friends, just because Wednesdays work for him. I don't know... if his wayward behaviors have their roots in desiring freedom, what helps is that I no longer ask him questions or bother him about his schedule. I used to ask all the time if we could do xyz or what he was doing that day etc, and it bothered him. It was actually a result of a 180 last summer that I stopped asking. He realized that married didn't mean the end of his freedom... That had been a complaint/worry when we were expecting our son and he was still living elsewhere. I think he did more things with other girls during that period than he's admitted to. But anyway, once I stopped nagging him and once he realized I had backed off, he realized he had more freedom than he thought he did. I think that helped him relax.

Perhaps one of the reasons he is no longer cheating is because he not only likes the lifestyle, but he also values his marriage and family?

I think he does. That's where my anger makes things difficult and I need to learn some techniques on dealing with it. I'm angry because he spent so long saying dismissive things, unkind comparisons to other girls, etc that I'm having a hard time just accepting that he DOES love me. I need to figure out how to deal with my anger so I can accept his love. I think he truly does value us. I know he does. He cried recently when a very precious family member of mine passed away. He sees all of us as his family; he saw her and visiting her as a special part of it, because I think she really showed him how accepted he was. A special gift.

only you can control what you are willing to put up with, and where to draw your boundaries.

So true. That was what I wound up doing last summer, and it helped. I realized that it's not always possible to just move out or walk away, for different reasons. And not every "deal breaker" needs to be extreme. The start of better boundaries was in accepting his boundaries and knowing I couldn't control them. I told him I accepted that he still felt single and that, therefore, he was acting single, and that's how I would treat him: as if he were single. I also detached and protected my boundaries. The plan was to keep working on myself until I had the capability to leave. He's made some big changes during that time period. Hopefully most of all for himself.

Long walks with a loved one is nature's therapy, free of charge.

They really are. To my extreme surprise (and possibly because this thread encouraged me to ask), we did go for a long walk today. Not to Target though. And now we've been invited to a free day at a science museum this weekend. This particular museum is a HUGE trigger for me, because during our pregnancy we'd had a date for there and he went with another girl instead. Deeply hurtful. And now he's more enthusiastic about going than I am - for the first time ever! So... maybe this weekend we will overcome another trigger... I hope.

This is what I refer to as "checking out".

Thank you. I couldn't think of a good term, and "checking out" describes it well. I will definitely ask my IC about it, and about some good listening techniques. Had a thought too. Was reading in another forum on SI, and the advice to someone was to thank their WS when he or she tells them something difficult. Maybe each time Mr Silver talks about something "heavy", especially if it's stuff I really want to hear about, I'll thank him for each bit of information, instead of peppering him with questions. Maybe that will encourage him to speak up more in time.

Thank you for your good advice, Losfer!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

How is everyone doing this week? Welcome to the new thread. Just so any lurkers know: a madhatter is someone who is both a betrayed spouse and a wayward spouse. So we wear both hats.

Come on in!!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

My pleasure, Silver! I got a lot out of our conversation, too.

Glad you got that walk in! Did you make it to the museum? I hope you are able to work through this particular trigger with Mr. Silver. Good luck.


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silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 1:26 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Our museum trip is tomorrow. I think we'll have fun, but I have to admit I'm very nervous. This will be a family outing, whereas with the other girl he was one-on-one, so way more datelike than what we're going to get to do. Already feeling bad about that, but trying to put it aside and instead think, "how wonderful, we get to share in our son's joy as we see the beautiful things there". When I focus on our son, everything seems easy - but when I think about my H and how to connect with him (especially doing something with him that he's already done with another girl), I feel nervous.

My worry is that he'll start talking about his time there with her. He has a habit of telling stories about OWs and reminiscing when we're in situations that remind him of them (a few weeks after his "date" with her - he insists it wasn't a date - we went to try to recapture it and the whole time he complained and said "I've already seen everything". I sat there griping "No sh*t, a$$hole, with her instead of me!"). I tried other times to get him to go since, and he's unenthusiastically declined. But for the first time, now he's more excited about going there together than I am, so that's got to be a good sign, right? And he hasn't mentioned the other times yet, so maybe this is a good sign... I'm worried about how to respond if he starts reminiscing, though. I want to *not* shut him down when he talks. But it feels disingenuous to smile at him when he's talking about something that hurts... Maybe I'll just listen quietly. No response except to be an attentive listener.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:45 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

So we went, but the line was too long, so we didn't go in the science museum. I feel a little down because it feels like it's still theirs. But we walked around the park outside the museum for a while, ate some lunch, got smoothies... So it was nice. We had both gotten dressed up, and it felt like we'd tried to go on a real date. We still had a good time, and I remembered that getting smoothies together is still "our" thing.

There's another free day this coming weekend for our area of the city (they offer zip code based free days throughout the year, it's kinda neat). I asked him if he wants to go with me, and he unenthusiastically declined again. I wish he would - I've gone other times with our son, but just being there makes me feel like I'm trespassing on "their" special memories there (they went to the rainforest exhibit together, and a large butterfly landed on her. He took a video of her and the butterfly and then brushed the butterfly off her shoulder. Just hearing about it and seeing it in the video felt very boyfriend-like, and it hurt). So maybe we won't be reclaiming it just yet. That's OK, maybe I wasn't ready for it yet. If we can't, I'd really like to at least make some special moments there with our son. When I was a kid, before the museum was remodeled, my Dad and I used to go there every weekend, and it was our special thing.

Or, maybe it's time to find somewhere else. Maybe it's time to let go of that museum until it happens naturally, without being forced.

Going to keep working on the other goals and appreciating him for what he does.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 5:10 PM, September 29th (Sunday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

How did the museum go today, Silver?

Sorry to hear he has a tendency to reminisce about previous OW's. That's just not cool.

I think his enthusiasm could definitely be a good sign. I also agree that you shouldn't attempt to smile when he is saying something that hurts you.

Today is my 13th wedding anniversary with Amerasia. She got a bit sad last night, and started talking about how our anniversaries are no longer the same, and that the whole marriage/relationship was a lie. I tried to explain to her that I'm not perfect either, and that I carried an awful secret of betrayal for so many years. She couldn't seem to get away from the comparison of her A versus mine, though, and she was just really hard on herself. It really hurt me to see her going through that pain.

On a good note, she seems to be in a better mood today. I'm happy that we've made it this far, and are still together after everything we've been through. Looking forward to celebrating with a date night this upcoming Friday.


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LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 5:14 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

I just totally cross posted with you!

I'm going to read your reply and get back with you here in a bit.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

Happy 13th Wedding Anniversary to you guys! I'm sorry to hear she's feeling sad. It sounds like you guys are a wonderful team, that you can express to each other how you're feeling and then support each other through the rougher feelings. Making a safe place together. Hope you guys will have a wonderful day today and fun date on Friday!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

Thanks, Silver! She seems to be feeling quite a bit better today. She just left for her Zumba class. That always seems to lift her spirits. Looking forward to hanging out with her when she gets home.

One thing I have to keep in check is that when she is in a sad mood, I am in a sad mood. When she is in a happy mood, I am in a happy mood. A little bit of codependency there, I think...

Well, even though the line was long and you didn't make it in, it sounds like you made the best of your day. Sounds like a really mellow and fantastic time, actually!

I understand about wanting to claim/reclaim the museum experience. It's so hurtful when they shared experiences with their AP's and those places feel "tainted". We've reclaimed a lot of places, but still have a couple to go. There's a sushi restaurant and a Greek restaurant that we eventually need to go to. The hotels I am just going to forget about, because the thought of even attempting to reclaim that territory makes me want to .

I think the museum is definitely something you should eventually reclaim, though, especially since you had such fond childhood memories there. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a lot of that desire for your son's benefit, either. I think that's awesome.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
Unagie
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Default  Posted: 8:45 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

Hi guys, thanks mods for new thread. I come on here to lurk a lot, haven't felt like posting. You know this shit is exhausting, and we're not even together but I realized something, he's never going to fully own his actions and that's on him. He will always take what I did and make it to be worse. He dated another woman while with me, talked to women on craigslist and gave out his number in bars and lied to me when he met up with the woman who was a mutual friend that said she was in love with him 7 years ago. Since non of it was physical none of it is as bad or even bad at all in some cases. Hes sorry not because he did but because those actions make me feel hurt. WTF!? Oh and don't let me mention the fact that 7 years ago he was also in love with her, he just realized that 7 years later. He said how is he supposed to stop himself from falling in love...really!? He still talks to her now that they've reconnected. I have told him I hope he is finally happy and I mean it. I can't help thinking that he kept stalling on our marriage and kids because part of him still wanted her. It makes sense, it fits. He denies it but hey it took him 7 years to realize he loved her maybe it'll take 7 years to realize he was never all in with us. That's my reality, realizing I never truly knew him or me.

Still working on me, every layer I uncover I process and evaluate and move on. This is exhausting in itself. I plan to post here even though SO and I broke up, perhaps I can give some more insight for others and gain help while I continue my own journey.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

Hi Unagie.

I think it'd be great if you kept posting here. You've been through so much, and have put in so much work, I think your advice is extremely valuable. We are definitely here for your continued healing journey as well.

I agree... the work is very exhausting, but it is so worth it. You are worth it.


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918Mama
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Default  Posted: 12:31 AM, September 30th (Monday)

Hi Unagie -

I can totally relate to what your xSO said. I've said the same thing many times to my H.

Perspective is a funny thing and everyone has their own.

I get accused of minimizing because I wasn't prepared to accept that my EA was anywhere in the same ballpark with his multiple PA's.

Many times I would meet with emotion over my EA with an AYFKM???

But his reality is that what I did hurt. And I have to acknowledge that, whether I agree with his reactions or not.

I think the big aha moment for me was realizing this: my H caused me a tremendous amount of pain. I wanted to die. I wanted the pain to stop. I hated him. I wanted him to hurt.

But...my actions were my own. They weren't in response to being hurt and they weren't a way of evening the score.

They were my choice and if I didn't like the outcome, I shouldn't have made the choices I did.

For that I am definitely sorry.


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 600 | Registered: Dec 2012
ophelia24
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Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, September 30th (Monday)

Hey everyone,
Haven't been on here in a while.

Mama, you wrote

I get accused of minimizing because I wasn't prepared to accept that my EA was anywhere in the same ballpark with his multiple PA's.

Wow. This is what is going on for me and my H at the moment. Except I am your H. And deep down, there is a part of me that agrees with this. I had 2 affairs, one ONS (with my H bf at very beginning of dating), and various inappropriate kissing/flirting incidents, not to mention my constantly revolving wayward thoughts.

My H had on going contact with an ex gf (30 years ago, first love) that was not a secret from me (although I didn't like it but he assured me it was just friends and I felt hypocritical complaining)which ended up with fb messages between them containing "inappropriate longing" and "what if" type material. And he sent her a song that was very intimate and I thought was ours. Many drunken conversations between them over the years, and she organised to meet with him 7 years ago when he went back to the states to visit (after I confessed one affair) but he decided not to go and meet her in the hotel room, as although he admitted feeling intrigued and a bit scared, knew something would probably happen. And he didn't want to do that. Which is great of course, but with those realisations, is when he should not have continued being in contact with her, knowing there was a bit more to his/her feelings. Fast forward 5 years later and the above mentioned messages were written.

It was only last year that I realised how inappropriate those messages were. And I went at him sporadically for a year about this, and finally he realised how crappy they were and what has really been kept going for our entire marriage. He finally wrote her a final fb message telling her why they could no longer be friends. Even though I knew in my heart all of this, actually reading what he wrote to her, rocked me to the core.

Im still really hurting over it. Probably because my confessions this year have taken over in magnitude from my hurts around this old flame.

I have the message he sent here if anyone wants to read it on a PM. I think I need to be validated for whatever reason, that I have a reason to be really hurt about this. But I feel so fucking undeserving of this hurt. And wonder also if I am clinging onto the hurt as to ameliorate what I have done.

So yeah Mama, your post resonated for me. Its what is happening at present for me and my H.

And TG has said that I am still angry and hurt about this, and she is right. And I think there is much work to be done around this with my H, but hard to do when all my transgressions seem to swamp this.

And although I know at an intellectual level that "betrayal is betrayal", my heart is saying "You don't deserve to be hurt". Or perhaps my pain is coming from "you don't deserve to be heard".

I dunno. Clever peeps on here. What's your thoughts?


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 283 | Registered: Feb 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, September 30th (Monday)

Losfer,

You tend to do what HL does, he mirrors as well, that is hard for me.

918,

Is it hard for you that your H is hurt over what you did when you feel that it was not as dramatic as what he did? If so, why?

Opheilia,

Why is it hard for you to feel hurt over this? Do you feel you have to justify it?

I can say that with HL's A's being EA's and mine being a PA, it has been hard to not compare. Here is the problem, I always told him throughout our M, it would be easier for me to forgive a ONS than if he got emotionally involved with someone. So what did he do? Got emotionally involved. Why? Because he can't just sleep with someone, not how he is made, he needs that emotional hit. And that is what kills me. That is what hurts the most. He gave away what I wanted.

This is why we can't compare, what hurts us, is not what hurts our partner. Our pain is our pain, and it is ok, and we don't have to justify, and our partners should accept and be ok with it. If they are not then there is work there to do. But we can accept that our pain is ok and justified.
JMHO.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
ophelia24
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Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, September 30th (Monday)

TG

Why? Because he can't just sleep with someone, not how he is made, he needs that emotional hit. And that is what kills me. That is what hurts the most. He gave away what I wanted

You just nailed it. I knew this in my head, but you've written it perfectly. My H sounds like yours in that sleeping with someone is not difficult to turn down, but creating emotional connections, even if based in lala land, is what he was seeking. And of course like you, emotional connection/intimacy is what I've been clawing at him for, for so fucking long. THAT is what kills me about all of this. It was an EA over a very long time, and not all the time, so I became anesthetized to what was really going on. It is so "not cool" to be jealous, and I went along with the justification that it is somehow mature and civilised to stay "friends" with an old gf. But this is also about my H needing to be seen as "the good guy", which comes about through Foo issues with an alcoholic abusive father who made him feel "bad".

And you are right I don't have to justify my hurt. I just am.

Lots of work to do.


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 283 | Registered: Feb 2013
918Mama
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Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)

TG -

You may have just saved me some work in therapy with this one sentence:

He gave away what I wanted.

Yes. We've been together since I was 16. He is my first and only. I wanted to be the last woman he ever had that "first kiss" with. The last woman he was ever intimate with. I wanted a relationship that had the security of knowing we were in it only for each other. I wanted to break the cycle for our kids. And so much more that he just gave away.

I think I need to sit quietly with this for a while. Thank you TG.

[This message edited by 918Mama at 5:01 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 600 | Registered: Dec 2012
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)

TG's comment has hit home for me too..
I withheld sex from my husband at various times - felt it was the only power I had in the marriage - yet I gave it to my AP. willingly! the only thing my husband ever asked me for I gave it away.
And all I ever asked him for is his time, to be his priority. which he gave away. Could give a shit that he kissed these two women...

the good thing - we both know this.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)

This is why we can't compare, what hurts us, is not what hurts our partner. Our pain is our pain, and it is ok, and we don't have to justify, and our partners should accept and be ok with it. If they are not then there is work there to do. But we can accept that our pain is ok and justified.

So very true.

While a lot of times, the hard work comes wearing the WS hat, we must be careful not to invalidate our own pain. Not to think: "I don't have a right to be upset, I did xyz." Then the pain festers. It's unexpressed and it doesn't leave. We can't heal what we won't feel.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 12:39 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I am glad that something that I have said has resonated with you ladies. I feel that being in this situation of being madhatters is unique and difficult. Offering each other support as we navigate our way through this can help us all. We each bring something special to the table, a unique perspective to this all.

How is everyone doing?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
918Mama
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Default  Posted: 1:58 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

We had a pretty tense conversation tonight with a lot of tears and a solid realization that we really need to uphold the separation...

And then...you know...well...you know.

Ugh.

If we could just keep our clothes on, this would be so much easier!!

And TG...you always say things that resonate with me. Even if I don't want to hear them!


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 600 | Registered: Dec 2012
Unagie
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Default  Posted: 5:12 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I personally feel like crap. My debt is mounting and I am constantly unhappy. Moving to my family seems to be the only choice I have left. Which means leaving my friends, the city I love and all I know behind. Maybe its for the best.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


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LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I am glad that something that I have said has resonated with you ladies.

*ahem* Dude, here, hello!

Your comment about the "mirroring" resonated with me a lot, Tired Girl. That's something that I do with Amerasia a lot, but then I'm starting to notice she does that with me, too. Sometimes the comments on this web site that resonate with me take a few extra days to sink in, and for me to process. Part of that is my scientific mind wanting to go back and observe my relationship with my wife for a bit, and also ponder our interactions in the past 18 years or so.

Also, the whole "comparison" thing would seem like a no-brainer, but it's so damn hard when you're living it, as all of us in this forum know. I've been trying so hard to cast comparisons aside... whether it is me comparing my poor choices to what my wife has done, or vice-versa. Being in a madhatter situation is definitely a special sort of challenge.

I think the best thing we can do is to own our own respective actions in life, and be conscientious about each others feelings and hurts at the same time. There's a lot to be said about living in the moment, feeling our own feelings, and allowing our spouses to feel theirs.

Unagie - Is moving back with your family something that you might need right now, or do you think that would drag your mood down further? It's perfectly okay to rely on family from time to time. If you are wanting to continue your independence though, there are other options. Is there a nearby city that you could move to that has a lower cost of living? Someplace you could afford to live, and yet be able to visit the city you love whenever you want? What is it you want in the short term and long term? Despite all of these logistical issues, are you feeling pretty good about yourself when you look in the mirror? I hope so. You've done a lot of work and have come a long way.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 9:32 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


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tired girl
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Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

ahem* Dude, here, hello!

Your comment about the "mirroring" resonated with me a lot, Tired Girl. That's something that I do with Amerasia a lot, but then I'm starting to notice she does that with me, too. Sometimes the comments on this web site that resonate with me take a few extra days to sink in, and for me to process. Part of that is my scientific mind wanting to go back and observe my relationship with my wife for a bit, and also ponder our interactions in the past 18 years or so.

Also, the whole "comparison" thing would seem like a no-brainer, but it's so damn hard when you're living it, as all of us in this forum know. I've been trying so hard to cast comparisons aside... whether it is me comparing my poor choices to what my wife has done, or vice-versa. Being in a madhatter situation is definitely a special sort of challenge

Sorry losfer, I will pay better attention next time,lol.

In regards to the mirroring thing, what gets me with this, is I want to be able to have my own moods and have them in no way affect where he is at. I know that is a bit difficult as we have been together so long, and he is going to sympathize with me to some level, but he needs to go about his day even if I am struggling a bit. Support me if I need it, but don't climb down in the pit with me. Does that make any sense?

What do you find to be the hardest thing about keeping the affairs separate losfer?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
drich3569
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Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I am so happy to have been directed to this thread.... I am new to these forums.

My story is.....

I had an affair with a co-worker two and a half years ago... never thought I would become that person but sadly I did. Biggest mistake of my life. My husband found out... we went to MC for a bit as we had some real issues that needed to be addressed.. fast forward 18 very difficult months and I catch my husband in an affair with a co-worker of his.
it has been 10 months since then and things are not getting any better. There is so much hatred and anger on both sides. I don't know if it's possible to get over two affairs... has anyone?

Thanks in advance.


Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Toronto
rachelc
Member
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Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

drich - welcome...
each wayward must own the choices he made, irrespective of his spouse's affair.
there will be a lot of justification that occurs. There always is in affairs and perhaps more so in the MH situation...
Fact is, you didn't cause each other's affairs. You each chose that for yourself. Can you both own that?

I'm sure others will chime in!
Welcome to this forum!

[This message edited by rachelc at 5:44 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Hello, and welcome, drich3569!

I do think it is possible to heal a relationship that betrayal has occurred on between both partners. There's a lot of us here who are working through it. This particular thread is a really good sounding board for those of us dealing with the nuances of being in a madhatter relationship. That being said, I think the other forums on this web site are equally important. Each of us here in this thread has a wayward side to us, and there is a lot to be learned by studying the Wayward forum. Those that are trying to reconcile find a lot of good advice from the Reconciliation forum. We also have to deal with our betrayed side as well. We can do that by reading/posting in General, or reading in JFO (none of us are allowed in JFO, because of our wayward side). There are also other forums that deal with Divorce/Separation, and New Beginnings for those of us whose relationships does not work out. This site runs pretty much all gamuts!

Anyway... sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but I am glad you found us!

TG -

In regards to the mirroring thing, what gets me with this, is I want to be able to have my own moods and have them in no way affect where he is at. I know that is a bit difficult as we have been together so long, and he is going to sympathize with me to some level, but he needs to go about his day even if I am struggling a bit. Support me if I need it, but don't climb down in the pit with me. Does that make any sense?

This makes total sense. I was pondering this pretty hard today as I was working on the fence in our back yard. I really need to go back and look at all of my notes in Beatty's Codependency No More book. I think it's important for each of us to be allowed to have our own moods. The thing that Amerasia and I have to be careful of is either of us being the "barometer" of the relationship. Up until d-day, she was the primary barometer. If she was happy, I was happy, if she was sad, I was sad, etc., etc. A lot of that turned around after the d-days, just because my moods became more extreme than they ever were before. We're getting better at allowing each other our own moods and feelings, yet at the same time I am thinking that it is okay to ride off of each others' happiness. But yeah, I totally see your frustration with HL. I know I do the same thing to my wife. Working on it...

To answer your other question... I don't think our biggest struggle is keeping our affairs separate. I think our biggest current struggle is subtle ways of still comparing and generalizing. One thing that sent me into a tailspin was when we were talking about my wife's affair, and my wife said, "You did the same thing." That really got to me. In a way, I saw it as a comparison. I did not do the same thing. I betrayed my wife in my own method and manner, and I had my own reasons why. These were different than my wife's method, manner, and reasoning. Just as they are different than the 40K+ other stories and experiences from all of the members on this site, betrayed and/or wayward. Each one is individual and different.

So I guess what I am getting at is that our most recent struggle was comparison via over-generalization, if that makes any sense at all.

I mean... don't get me wrong. If the "why" part of our waywardness was all the same, that would be so much easier to deal with. There would be one thread in the Wayward forum, titled, "This Is Why You Did It", and we'd all find our answer there. Know what I mean?

[This message edited by LosferWords at 12:44 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

drich,

Welcome,

What have you guys been doing to try to work through this so far since discovering his A? To answer your question, yes I think it can be worked through, but I think there are nuances and things that have to be done differently due to being a madhatter.

Losfer,

Totally get what you mean. It almost sounds like she was deflecting, like what you did was as bad as what I did. Did you call her on it?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

TG - Yes, I did call her out on it, and she said what she meant to say was, "You cheated, too." I can absolutely accept that, if that was what was said. I think syntax can be a real pain in the ass sometimes. Could have been deflecting, could have been a miscommunication. I think we've gotten past it at this point, though.

Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Losfer,

Glad to hear you guys are doing so well.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Thanks, TG. We're hanging in. Still a day to day process. Almost three years out, and we are still in the mosh pit of reconciliation.

Hope you and HL are doing good as well.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
drich3569
New Member
Member # 40867
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Thanks everyone.

What I struggle with most is that he has never shown remorse or regret for his affair. In the year and a half after my affair and before I caught him he treated me like I was the scum of the earth. Called me horrible things.. told me he could never forgive me and that he hated me. While he was doing the EXACT same things.

He has no sensitivity to why I may still be suspicious (ap still works with him) And when discussing his affair becomes angry and says things like 'I can't believe were still discussing this". There are days where I think we can get through it then when he acts this way I feel I can't be with someone who has done those things and feels no regret because I did it first.

It's like once his affair was out he was ready to move on and forget about both affairs and I should have been ready to overlook what he did.

Because I had mine first... should I be able to???


Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Toronto
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

It's like once his affair was out he was ready to move on and forget about both affairs and I should have been ready to overlook what he did.

It definitely does not work like this, drich. You both have your own actions to equally own. One spouse having an affair does not excuse the other spouse from having an affair.

At the same time, you are completely allowed to have feelings of hurt and betrayal about what he did. It's important that you process these feelings instead of just brushing them to the side and ignoring them, because they won't go away.

Him not having remorse is a big issue, IMO. If he's not remorseful, what is preventing him from repeating his poor choices? Has he done any work on himself to figure out why he allowed himself to make those choices? And no... your affair is not a valid reason. There was already something in him to be vulnerable to having an affair. Your affair was just an excuse to let it happen.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:48 PM, October 5th (Saturday)

I second what Losfer said, drich. That one person has an affair doesn't cancel out the other person's and vice versa. Your H might want to feel that you "don't have to talk about them" anymore, but that's a way to try to see them as "even" in his mind and avoid doing the work himself or feeling the guilt. It doesn't work that way.

If he insists on not doing the work on himself, you might have some tough decisions to make. But no matter what, keep looking at your own choices and changes. Keep figuring out how you can be the healthiest drich you can be. If you can, keep including him on your own journey of healing, and keep acknowledging and validating his own pain over your affair.

Don't let him invalidate your feelings. He cheated, and it HURT. That doesn't go away whether you cheated or not. Hopefully he can be on your team to help you heal from his affair. If he's not interested in being a teammate with you, then it sounds like he's still being selfish.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, October 6th (Sunday)

In my own journey, we're about to hit round two in the science museum saga. Tomorrow is the last free day for our zip code, and I'm planning to go with our son. I invited Mr Silver, my mother, and my godmother as a family outing. Mr Silver had already declined last weekend when plans feel through (posted about that earlier). Well, my mother and godmother initially said yes but have both declined now as well. So Mr Silver says he might go with us because he feels badly for me going alone. Or he might stay home and play GTA 5. Either way, I hope that tomorrow might give us another chance to reclaim.

I've realized another thing holding me back. It's this idea I keep hearing about, in books and in others' stories, where after an A, the effort both partners put into their Ms make it "the best M we've had in a long time" and imply that before the A, things maybe weren't going so well. For me, there was no "before the A". My H had wayward tendencies from the very beginning. On the one hand I can know that it had nothing to do with me, truly. But on the other hand, there's this feeling I've identified, something like: "My very best self (the "fresh new face" you are at the beginning of your relationship) wasn't enough to turn him on/interest him/attract him/etc., so what can I possibly do now? It didn't work before..." This was the time when I was trying to look my best, cook these great meals, be interesting and cheerful (genuinely felt that way), and he was busy comparing me directly to and playing single with OWs. Still can't get out of my head that I'm not "his best". So of course, now's the time to relearn how to do that stuff for myself, not for anyone else... But it's hard to break the habit of wanting to impress your spouse. More unhealthy external validation.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, October 6th (Sunday)

Did you make it to the museum, Silver? If so, did your husband go with you? How'd it go?

For me, there was no "before the A".

I can totally identify with that. My wife's A started five months before she met me, and continued for 15 years. I honestly don't think she did a lot of comparison between myself and the OM. Seriously, if she had, she would have really questioned what she was doing with this guy. He really didn't have much going for him when it comes to looks, intelligence, money, kindness, etc. I guess part of that is a comfort, yet at the same time I have questioned, "why was *I* not enough?". Know what I mean? The thing is, the A was never about me to begin with. I didn't even know her when her A started. I'm guessing your husband's wayward behavior had nothing to do with you, either.

On the other hand, I think it's okay to want to impress our spouses, as long as we aren't solely dependent upon their validation. Maybe I look at things a bit differently... I view two people in a marriage as being a single unit. Two separate entities, tied together in the middle, kind of like a Venn diagram. If we get validation from within that marriage, where the two circles intersect, I think that's healthy. It's when the two circles completely overlap each other that things can really get out of hand.


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silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, October 6th (Sunday)

I view two people in a marriage as being a single unit. Two separate entities, tied together in the middle, kind of like a Venn diagram. If we get validation from within that marriage, where the two circles intersect, I think that's healthy. It's when the two circles completely overlap each other that things can really get out of hand.

That is such a good metaphor. It captures the idea of balance and moderation. No interlap at all, and the "circles" or people have nothing in common. Too much, and it's codependency. So it's about finding the balance and what things should be within the overlap and what things are independent. And what things overlap with other people's circles and whether that's appropriate or not. Great metaphor!

I did go to the science museum today. Mr Silver decided not to go, so it was just our son and me. Mr Silver asked me to bring him back a scorpion lollipop, which is itself a trigger (about an incident with a different OW and him and the same museum about a month or two before the butterfly exhibit incident*). So we went to the butterfly exhibit first, just to get it out of the way, and that was hard. I kept having questions and images of "did they stand here? Did they do this? Did he flirt with her about xyz?" And it hurt that he would go there with her but not me, chose her over our date. But then we (DS and I) wound up having a good time anyway. I'd forgotten that the last time my son and I went that he was too little to really get it. He went totally nuts over the aquarium. I got H the lollipop anyway, and it was a good thing - realized it was more about feeling good about myself, and knowing that Mr Silver's love language is gifts, I didn't want to be petty over the trigger and not get him something I knew he wanted. So I got it for him and he appreciated it. It felt a little easier to be there this time. I might get a membership there for Christmas so my son and I can go more often. I really want it to be our place.

*ETA: If this is getting confusing, lol... We'll call one girl Cloudy and the other one Pinklace. Cloudy was a chick who lived in his program with him, who was also married, but who insisted on putting her hands in his clothes (according to him because she was trying to get money or smokes, but really?), who started picking flowers for him when he told her he picks flowers for me, who would ask his opinion often and obsessively on how she looked, and who got him to go with her frequently to the corner stores and once, just the two of them, to a Buddhist temple at night without my knowing in advance. When their program went to the science museum, for his first time, instead of spending time with the other guys he spent the whole time with her, and she went around semi-panhandling other patrons until she had enough for a scorpion lollipop. He talked about it for months after and has asked me to bring him one other times, usually accompanied by the story about her. Also he saw her at some undisclosed point after agreeing to tell me all contact, but withheld it until she came up in random conversation later. Not to mention he wouldn't shut up about her eyes and how they were his "same exact shade" for the longest time. That was incident #1. Incident #2 was about a month or two later. He'd said he hadn't been to the butterfly exhibit before, and since I hadn't either, we'd agreed to go on a date together there. We'd also just found out we were pregnant. Imagine my surprise when he called in the middle of a week to say he'd just gone with another girl, Pinklace, and was gushing over how a butterfly had landed on her shoulder. Showed me the video later. I was horrified - "what about our date?" He hemmed and hawed. "Well, I got a chance to see the butterflies, so I took it! Shouldn't you be happy for me?" So we went a few weeks later, and he complained the whole time that he'd already seen everything (except the Planetarium - neither of us have seen it, and that time when we were going to, he had us leave just before the show started claiming vertigo). Then I stupidly bought us a membership to try to compete with the OWs, until he a) blew up at me for "wasting money" since he'd gone on free days with the OWs and b) wanted to throw the penguin mug I'd bought him at the wall because I'd left the gift in a bad place where "someone else could have stolen it!". Whew, I wrote a lot! Feels better to get it all out there. Maybe now I can let it go (one day at a time). Wooosa. WOooosa. That's the past. It's not happening anymore. It's gone. Wooooosa.

I honestly don't think she did a lot of comparison between myself and the OM.

Was she compartmentalizing during this time?

I guess part of that is a comfort, yet at the same time I have questioned, "why was *I* not enough?". Know what I mean? The thing is, the A was never about me to begin with.

I can hear that. It's almost a question of "why was I not enough to have commitment at least in the beginning, to be worth stopping the wayward behaviors?" but then knowing that we had no choice in those decisions. The wayward behaviors were already the established way of life and we were the new addition. It really wasn't anything to do with us.

My own choices wound up being for different reasons than my H. Mine were with the intent of self-destruction. Which proved to me two things: one, that I was hurting others with my bad behavior, and two, that to be honest I probably wasn't healthy enough to be in a relationship at all. Before my betrayal, I had done something else self-destructive and my H rightly said that if I ever tried to harm myself again, he would dump me. Another reason why that venn diagram is such a good metaphor. It's important not to base too much of yourself on a relationship. You have to be healthy enough to stand up on your own. You've got to be OK whether you're alone for ten years or ten minutes.

Maybe that's why it will be such a big step to make the science museum OUR place, a place for my son and I. To go there, not solely for my son, but for US, for our bonding, and to make my own good memories there. Not to define it by what H did there. Today was a good step in that direction.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 8:23 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, October 7th (Monday)

Great metaphor!

Thanks! I tend to be more of a visual person, and sometimes seeing things as various types of shapes in my head helps me understand them better.

Glad you were able to get that story out about Cloudy and Pinklace. Sometimes just writing about what has disturbed us can be an integral part of the healing process. I definitely can understand why that museum can be a huge trigger for you, so BIG kudos to you for working at reclaiming that place as your own.

One thing I have to work hard at actively practicing is living in the moment. It sounds like you were able to take a step back and live in the moment with your son. He must have had a great time.

It felt a little easier to be there this time.

Good! That's the thing about facing some of our triggers head on. Sometimes it takes repetition to heal, but it tends to get easier each time.

Was she compartmentalizing during this time?

Big time. This is something that my wife and I discussed quite a bit, especially in the beginning. In one of her last facebook PM exchanges with the OM, she talked about how she didn't want the A to impact her "real life". Almost like she was living in a parallel universe or something. Compartmentalizing was a huge part of her affair.

It's important not to base too much of yourself on a relationship. You have to be healthy enough to stand up on your own. You've got to be OK whether you're alone for ten years or ten minutes.

Those words are golden, right there. Definitely worth quoting, in the hopes that others will read them and gain from them as well.

Maybe that's why it will be such a big step to make the science museum OUR place, a place for my son and I. To go there, not solely for my son, but for US, for our bonding, and to make my own good memories there. Not to define it by what H did there. Today was a good step in that direction.

Awesome!!!

Really good to hear that your day was productive and healing.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:04 AM, October 15th (Tuesday)

Crap. I am so sorry. I really thought I would be done for a long while from posting anything else about the Science Museum Saga. And then another stupid trigger comes...

My H's sister and cousin will be coming to town next month for a family reunion. Specifically, the FIRST family reunion. H grew up in the foster care system, and he is finally getting his real family back, in the form of his sister, cousin, and hopefully more relatives in the near future. Good news all around.

He was just saying that his sister has never visited our city before and he wants to take her around everywhere. He named several places... guess what the last one was he named?

Now, I'm not jealous of his sister - I mean, this is his long-lost sister! Someone who brings a great light with her into his life, and I want to make her feel comfortable and happy when she's here. It's the principle, once again. He'll gladly take another girl to the museum, show her a good time... but not me. He'll make magic with his sister and cousin there, because going there for the first time with long-lost family is damn magical... But goodness forbid his pregnant girlfriend wants to go there on a date. Noooo, he goes with another girl and then going with me is "boring" because he's seen everything. Goodness forbid he takes his wife there on a free day. Noooo, the first free day was too crowded, so the one that happens the very next weekend, well, he can't be bothered going with his wife. But a week later, and he wants to take someone else!

I will not do anything to jeopardize their fun time. If I'm invited, son and I will probably go. But how will I cope that he's essentially there on a fun magical time - once again - with someone else instead of me. It really will be THEIR date, not ours.

I hate him sometimes. Or maybe not him, but rather I really, really hate his hurtful choices sometimes.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)

Just giving a final update. Decided to share my feelings with him this morning. One of the things I learned from SI is to live authentically. That means, no matter what his reaction was going to be, to share how I am feeling. So I did. It started out the usual way - I shared (and tried to be pretty minimal about it, with a disclaimer that it was NOT meant to make anyone feel badly), he reacted badly and accused me of trying to make him feel badly (and I called him on it the moment he said it), he slammed the door behind him, and then actually came back and tried to explain himself. I called him on giving me different versions of the story about the museum over time, but thanked him for trying to explain and clarify. Ended with saying what the core of the pain was: I wanted the museum to be our special place, and it wasn't. Feel a great amount of peace, and it didn't ruin our morning. Hopefully this will be the end of the Science Museum Saga. I learned a lesson about sharing my feelings. My husband's supposed to be my best friend - so how could I not share? That's called being authentic, and it's a much better tool/skill than shutting down and stuffing up. The latter can lead to resentment and dishonesty, neither one good habits.

How are you all doing, my fellow MHers? Losfer, how is everything going with you guys? You had said last time that your wife had acknowledged that she thought of her life with you as "real life" and the affair as happening in a "parallel universe". Have you guys gotten to explore more about compartmentalization? And how was your anniversary dinner? Hope everything is going well!

Take care, everyone.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)

Hi Silver! Just getting caught up here. Sorry I missed your post from earlier today, but I'm glad you had a chance to discuss your feelings with your husband. It sounds like you've made some real progress there! You are right about living authentically. I've had to make some steps towards telling my wife how I feel, versus expecting her to know how I feel. I can see you've made progress in that area as well. I'm really happy to see you get some closure about the museum. Feel free to discuss it here anytime it comes up, though!

At this point, are you looking forward to going to the museum and your husband's long lost family? Best of luck with that. Keep us posted on how that goes.

My wife and I are doing good. The compartmentalization that I was talking about, i.e the affair not affecting her "real life", occurred heavily before I caught her. The compartmentalization shattered quite a bit once the affair was discovered and a light was shown on everything. At that point, it was more a matter of healing... and for her, seeking out they whys and hows of her behavior during that time. I've done some reading since then on compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance. Just internet resources so far. Really interesting stuff.

Our anniversary dinner was really nice, thank you for asking! It was really low key. Just the two of us having dinner in a quiet alcove of a quiet restaurant, enjoying each others' company, and enjoying the food and atmosphere.

Next task at hand is dealing with the holiday season, and all of the triggers associated with the next few months. First big trigger is Halloween. I'm a little bit nervous, because the last two trigger seasons I was on antidepressants. I then tapered off of the meds near the beginning of this year, and have been doing well ever since then. Now that the trigger season is coming up, I can feel the depression starting to hit me again. I'm making sure I am vigilant of my mood and my mental disposition. The last week or so has been a bit of a struggle.

One thing positive we did was travel way out of town this past weekend to a farm to pick our pumpkins for Halloween. This is very much a part of our reclaiming process for this upcoming holiday.

So here I am rambling! Hope everyone is doing well.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:45 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

The compartmentalization shattered quite a bit once the affair was discovered and a light was shown on everything.

Sometimes honesty, either with our SOs or ourselves, can be the very best disinfectant.

Next task at hand is dealing with the holiday season, and all of the triggers associated with the next few months. First big trigger is Halloween. I'm a little bit nervous, because the last two trigger seasons I was on antidepressants. I then tapered off of the meds near the beginning of this year, and have been doing well ever since then. Now that the trigger season is coming up, I can feel the depression starting to hit me again. I'm making sure I am vigilant of my mood and my mental disposition. The last week or so has been a bit of a struggle.

That's hard. Holiday season can be stressful anyway, and then to deal with A-related triggers on top of that. Are you two thinking of making any new traditions during the holidays? Something to make it new and special for you two? Or traditions that survived that can reenforce the time period's importance and bonding? Have you two talked about what the holidays mean for each of you? Maybe it can help to know what importance each of you place on them, whether there's something specific each of you treasure - a specific one, or a thing you like to do, or a feeling you get that you want to nurture.

One thing positive we did was travel way out of town this past weekend to a farm to pick our pumpkins for Halloween. This is very much a part of our reclaiming process for this upcoming holiday.

At this point, are you looking forward to going to the museum and your husband's long lost family?

I think my role will be to take as many photos of them as possible. It helped me to acknowledge that it will never be our special place. Now it frees me to enjoy helping make their visit and time there together special.

In time, I still fully intend that it will become a special place for our son and I. I will give him good memories just like my father gave me. Unlike my father, I won't leave my son - I'll be there to share those good memories with him AND my grandkids!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Are you two thinking of making any new traditions during the holidays? Something to make it new and special for you two? Or traditions that survived that can reenforce the time period's importance and bonding? Have you two talked about what the holidays mean for each of you? Maybe it can help to know what importance each of you place on them, whether there's something specific each of you treasure - a specific one, or a thing you like to do, or a feeling you get that you want to nurture.

The pumpkin patch is our new tradition that helps overshadow the horrible things that happened on Halloween of 2010. Not quite sure what to do with Thanksgiving and Christmas. But yeah, we have talked about a lot of that stuff. There's a big part of me that wishes I could cancel the holidays. Then I realize that I need to make these holidays special for my son. That gives me great joy. Then I am conflicted, because the holiday season was the time of year when the affair was uncovered, and I found out he is not biologically my son. My head is still so very screwed up over that. And of course my son doesn't know. We pretty much wrap him in a protective bubble, and go about celebrating the holidays and give him a childhood of tradition and happy memories. In the meantime, I still feel like I am on the sidelines, dealing with feelings of hurt, isolation, abandonment, loss, and humiliation.

Anyway... so here I go, with my negative self-talk. Horrible trait of depression, eh? Normally I would just delete that last paragraph, and talk about how I am going to power it through the holidays, and make them special for myself, and everyone involved. Now for my positive spin. I usually set up our Christmas lights and decorations around Thanksgiving. Maybe I'll go a little more Clark Griswold, and pep up the outside of the house a bit! That will help to make Thanksgiving AND Christmas better. Ha! Bingo...

I think my role will be to take as many photos of them as possible. It helped me to acknowledge that it will never be our special place. Now it frees me to enjoy helping make their visit and time there together special.

Your positive attitude about all of this is inspiring. I'm starting to think that bad memories can be like shackles. Breaking free of those shackles is up to us. You're not only breaking free of those shackles, but you're grabbing a camera, and making good memories out of them.

In time, I still fully intend that it will become a special place for our son and I. I will give him good memories just like my father gave me. Unlike my father, I won't leave my son - I'll be there to share those good memories with him AND my grandkids!

I'm really sorry to hear about your father. Are you still in contact with him in any way? That's wonderful that you are giving that special place and time to your son. And to your future grandkids! That is definitely something to look forward to.

On a different note, along the same subject line of reclamation... I was talking to a very wise member here the other day, and he basically suggested that things from the past really can't be 'reclaimed'. So why not reclaim today? Why not reclaim every day? Huh. Good idea. Think I'll go rock out to the new Pearl Jam album and enjoy the beautiful fall colors in our neighborhood!

Take care, and have a great day!

Any new or lurking madhatters, you are welcome to join the conversation.

Either way, I hope everyone who is reading this is making the best of their day. Take care.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:06 AM, October 21st (Monday)

Not quite sure what to do with Thanksgiving and Christmas.

It can be hard to remake them, huh? Maybe it can help too to do some research about different things people do during them, maybe different traditions. You might find something you've never heard of before that sounds fun. Like maybe an interesting new recipe (we recently discovered squash-apple soup for Thanksgiving, for example), or decorations (or even meals) in a different room of the house.

Then I am conflicted, because the holiday season was the time of year when the affair was uncovered, and I found out he is not biologically my son. My head is still so very screwed up over that. And of course my son doesn't know. We pretty much wrap him in a protective bubble, and go about celebrating the holidays and give him a childhood of tradition and happy memories. In the meantime, I still feel like I am on the sidelines, dealing with feelings of hurt, isolation, abandonment, loss, and humiliation.

That must be very hard. I wish I had advice for you.

I'm really sorry to hear about your father. Are you still in contact with him in any way?

Not at the moment. He disagreed with my decision to start a family. We emailed back and forth for about three years (he wrote every three months or so), and then this summer my Nana passed away, and we saw him at the memorial service. He met his grandson for the first time. I haven't heard from him since, he hasn't responded to my emails. I think I'm trying to repress just how upset that makes me. I know intellectually the way I need to move through this - accept it, then stop dwelling on it and wallowing in it. I feel deeply upset, if I'm honest ANGRY about it and spend way too much time thinking about it. And he can't be part of the resolution because he's not here. This has taught me, more than anything, how individual healing really is. We don't always have the partners we need to help us through the healing. Sometimes they're there but not on the same page, and sometimes they're flat out gone.

I think Mr Silver and I might have a bigger problem than the science museum after all: our communication. We don't respond well to each other. A conversation goes something like this:

Him: We're out of wet cat food (which we use as an addition to the dry food). We have like 2 cans left.
Me: I could feed them the (meat) baby food.
Him: Baby food? *scowling* We feed them the baby food again, fuck?
Me: OK, you're right, we won't feed them the baby food.
Him: I mean fuck, what, you wanna feed them the veggie one now?
Me: *holding up hand* OK, I acknowledged you, I said I heard you and we wouldn't feed them the baby food. That's it. I won't mention it again.

We both have issues. I tend to be very dismissive of him, emphasis on the diss, and I get angry with him very quickly. He tends to be disrespectful and curses at me. We've had prior conversations where he's voiced his disapproval of feeding the cats meat baby food, so I should not have brought it up again. We've had prior conversations that I don't like him cursing at me, and he should not have cursed at me again. I'm wondering what I should say. Should I swallow my pride more? I think that should be the answer. So then what to do with the resentment that remains?

ETA the main problem... Control struggles: I will shut down conversations where I feel attacked by saying, "End of story" type statements. He will shut down conversations by leaving the room and slamming the door shut behind him. I'm guessing we both do it when we're feeling overwhelmed. So maybe the first step for me is to say honestly that I feel overwhelmed. Or maybe I should try to suck it up more often. He got mad at me earlier for saying I don't feel well (which I don't) because I say I don't feel well a lot (because, well, I don't). If I clam up, I'm shutting down further talks and also trying to win the power struggle by having "the last word", not to mention affecting our intimacy. If I say that I don't feel well too often, then he feels like I'm either overwhelming him or using it for an excuse. Maybe I need to either say it less or else vary what I mean: "I need a break from looking after DS, could you please watch him?" (and stop being afraid of him saying no) "I think I need to lie down for a little while, can we turn off the lights/can I leave the room for a while and can you be here with DS?" I'll try it. Don't know if I'm asking too much of him. Support vs. not stepping up to my responsibilities. Hard call. I *FEEL* like I don't have a lot of people I can turn to for support.

Sorry if I've written a lot. Sometimes it helps me to think when I write things down.

Hope everyone is having a wonderful Sunday!

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:15 AM, October 21st (Monday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, October 22nd (Tuesday)

It can be hard to remake them, huh? Maybe it can help too to do some research about different things people do during them, maybe different traditions. You might find something you've never heard of before that sounds fun. Like maybe an interesting new recipe (we recently discovered squash-apple soup for Thanksgiving, for example), or decorations (or even meals) in a different room of the house.

Absolutely! We have been doing that, with the new recipes and decorations. We usually do a different stuffing for thanksgiving each year. I might find something a bit different to jazz up the turkey. Maybe more lights/decorations for the outside of the house this year, too.

I'm starting to let go of the anticipation of the upcoming holiday/trigger season, which is taking a lot of the pressure off already.

this summer my Nana passed away

I saw that in Off Topic earlier this year. I am so sorry for your loss.

He met his grandson for the first time. I haven't heard from him since, he hasn't responded to my emails. I think I'm trying to repress just how upset that makes me. I know intellectually the way I need to move through this - accept it, then stop dwelling on it and wallowing in it. I feel deeply upset, if I'm honest ANGRY about it and spend way too much time thinking about it. And he can't be part of the resolution because he's not here. This has taught me, more than anything, how individual healing really is. We don't always have the partners we need to help us through the healing. Sometimes they're there but not on the same page, and sometimes they're flat out gone.

This really is about individual healing. I learned quite a bit about this concept from Janis Springs' book, "How Can I Forgive You?". Have you read it? I'm almost positive you have, with all of the books I've seen you talk about in the Book Club. Something that was new to me was her concept of forgiving people that are emotionally unavailable, not in our lives any more, or even not alive anymore. There's also the concept of acceptance, and the choice not to forgive. All of those have their different level of healing. Forgiving can go a long way in letting go, but it is still healthy to feel some of the hurt, in my opinion. I'm sorry you are hurting over the relationship with your dad, and his lack of interaction with your son.

We've had prior conversations that I don't like him cursing at me, and he should not have cursed at me again. I'm wondering what I should say. Should I swallow my pride more? I think that should be the answer. So then what to do with the resentment that remains?

I tend to lean towards erring towards communication versus repression, because repression can lead to resentment, and subsequently, escalated repression and escalated resentment. I think to a certain extent it can be about control. I know in my relationship with my wife, control tends to be about who "wins". But does anyone really win when one person gets their way, and the other person is resentful?

So maybe the first step for me is to say honestly that I feel overwhelmed.

I think that is probably the way to go. It's okay to take breaks from conversations when they get heated or uncomfortable. I tend to want to leave a "mental bookmark" though. Instead of just cutting things off, sort of say, "let's get back to this later, when we've both had time to think it out more/calmed down more/etc."

Maybe I need to either say it less or else vary what I mean: "I need a break from looking after DS, could you please watch him?" (and stop being afraid of him saying no) "I think I need to lie down for a little while, can we turn off the lights/can I leave the room for a while and can you be here with DS?" I'll try it. Don't know if I'm asking too much of him. Support vs. not stepping up to my responsibilities. Hard call. I *FEEL* like I don't have a lot of people I can turn to for support.

How does Mr. Silver react when you ask him to do this? Maybe a different approach would be saying something like, "We need to sit down and come to a mutually agreed upon arrangement of watching over DS and giving each other some breaks and personal space." Something like that? I don't know. I honestly had a struggle in this department myself, when my son was a tiny tot. He'd pretty much be in my care from the time I got home from work until the time I left the next morning. I think things would be different now, post d-day, as we have worked out a bunch of our communication issues. I can definitely relate to your struggle with this one, though.

Sorry if I've written a lot. Sometimes it helps me to think when I write things down.

Never be sorry for writing a lot. That's why DS and MH have created this page. To allow us to get it all out and help us all heal!

Hope everyone's week is going well.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday)

I learned quite a bit about this concept from Janis Springs' book, "How Can I Forgive You?". Have you read it?

Haven't read this one yet! It sounds like a good book. I've been resisting the idea of forgiveness, to be honest with myself - while I know that it means acceptance and (a little bit at a time, not all at once) letting go of the *pain* for yourself, I keep getting the "conventional wisdom" version stuck in my head which equals not being allowed to feel hurt anymore and rugsweeping and somehow saying what happened is OK (which isn't what forgiveness is, I know, but it's such a common picture of it that I get upset even thinking about it). But forgiveness is healing. It's necessary. It involves overcoming the pain instead of remaining within the suffering - real forgiveness, anyway. Acceptance. Thank you for the book recommendation, that'll be the next one I order.

But does anyone really win when one person gets their way, and the other person is resentful?

So true! Winning means winning as a team, that's what marriage is. There is no "win" if one partner loses.

How does Mr. Silver react when you ask him to do this? Maybe a different approach would be saying something like, "We need to sit down and come to a mutually agreed upon arrangement of watching over DS and giving each other some breaks and personal space."

It seems like that conversation should be straightforward and makes sense. For some reason, it never seems that easy with Mr. Silver or with anyone in my family really. Right now, Mr. Silver thinks that an even division of labor is that he cleans the room (when DS and I go out), does laundry, takes care of the cats, and sometimes cooks, and I do everything with DS and sometimes cook. He watches him sometimes, but usually for very brief stints - 10 minutes tops (showers, bathroom runs, sometimes cooking). I cannot leave the house without DS (Mr. Silver doesn't feel comfortable watching him without me around), unless DS is taking a nap. And Mr. Silver won't watch him the whole nap time, so I have to specify and ask and then run quickly to the corner store or the basement or wherever. I've come upstairs sometimes, and Mr. Silver will be out smoking somewhere for a half hour. It's hard to describe. Mr. Silver grew up in the foster care system with very inconsistent adults in his life, and I know he feels self-conscious in that he doesn't know how to do the right things with DS. So I know that's part of it, and I feel badly for the rough childhood he had and how alone he was. But unfortunately, another part of it is his temper. He doesn't have a lot of patience. He curses at our son sometimes when he loses his temper (and I always say "please don't curse at our son" and usually take DS somewhere else when he does - Mr. Silver needs to know that it is NOT OK to curse at our son - or me, for that matter). That's probably why I'm the one who is always watching DS. I have a sitter on Tuesdays for when I have my weekly therapy appointment but she lives in another city that we take a train to get to. So not so easy to call on her for help or a break. She is wonderful though, and she's one of the only people who I trust around my son. Everyone else breaks important, unacceptable boundaries.

I honestly had a struggle in this department myself, when my son was a tiny tot. He'd pretty much be in my care from the time I got home from work until the time I left the next morning. I think things would be different now, post d-day, as we have worked out a bunch of our communication issues.

How did it wind up getting better for you guys? How is it going now?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 10:53 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday)

Hi guys I've been silent. I recognized something in me and want to run it past you guys. Everytime I get angry at something he did or said (still living here trying to save money) or says or does I lash out...at myself. I find something to nitpick about me...I was playing GTA online and ended up running around with some random player. We drove around, jumped out of planes and ran a mission. We chatted through in game text the whole time about the game, then the questions got personal. Before they did he friend requested me and I accepted because its fun running around with someone else. As soon as he asked mh age I got uncomfortable, my character is female and people like to act stupid so I always act like I'm a guy. He asked my age said i was 30 he said he was 16 and I told him okay nice knowing ya kid Im going to log out and hang out with my girlfriend. I immediately took him off my friend's list and logged off. Then I sat here for 2 hours and made myself feel like shit for a situation that I handled fine.

Why did I do this folks? Well because I was mad at him. He has a tendency now to belittle me or make it obvious when he's right and I'm wrong and it pisses me the fuck off. But do I deal with it? No. I take something and make myself feel like shit instead. I feel like I'm losing my fucking mind sometimes.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
joshan1719
New Member
Member # 41091
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

I found this thread a few weeks ago and have been lurking until now. I think it's time I shared my story so I can start trying to make sense of everything.

I had an affair during the summer of 2012 with a coworker. For a long time I couldn't really sort out why, but after a year I'm finally able to accept what some of the main reasons are. First and foremost I don't think I took commitment seriously. It was a word but I took it for granted and didn't really respect what it means to be in a monogamous relationship and not share certain parts of that with other people. Secondly, as our relationship turned routine I looked for a way to have that excitement back without actually talking to him about it. Instead of having a conversation like adults do I took the easy way and just found my fun with someone else.

Towards the end of the summer my boyfriend found out about it. He'd had suspicions the whole time but I swore up and down nothing was going on and he chose to believe me. After he found out we had a lot of conversations about where to go from there and we chose to try and work on our relationship. He made me promise not to contact the OP but I did anyway. After finding out about that he gave me once more chance. I stopped all contact with the OP after that.

In the last year he hasn't been able to make any healing, which is my fault. I didn't apologize enough, and when I did it was a weak apology. When he wanted to talk about it I would get upset. I was rug-sweeping. I thought I had explained enough and we now needed to stop talking about it to move on.

Fast forward to September and he starts a new job and begins talking to a coworker there. He ends up sleeping with her at work one day and doesn't tell me about it. He starts telling me about her because she's in a physically abusive relationship and he wants to help her, so I agree that if the time comes where she needs to leave she and her son can come stay with us until she can figure things out, which she does. After being with us for about a month she's able to leave and that's when I find a text on his phone from her letting him know that her ex doesn't know they had sex. I confronted him and he didn't deny any of it, was completely honest about what happened.

It's been 24 days since I found out and I go back and fort between being fine and being a wreck. Sometimes I feel like he thinks I shouldn't be as upset with him because he cheated once and I had a continuing affair. I asked him not to talk to her and to give me the passwords for his facebook and email, which he did, but now he's changed them. And when I check the history on our computer I can see that he's been talking to her. I brought it up with him this morning and he said that I don't have anything to worry about because she's moved out of the state (this is true), but that he will occasionally be in touch with her to make sure she's doing ok. I agreed he could contact her once in a few days to make sure she made it because she's driving by herself but that was it. I haven't asked him why he changed his passwords and put a security lock on his phone yet because of other things that have been going on, so hopefully if he doesn't work too late tonight we'll be able to talk about it.

I guess that's my story, I hope to get more help from this forum.


WGF/BGF: 26
BBF/WBF: 23
DD 5 months
D-DAY for my EA/PA 8/8/12
D-DAY for his PA 10/1/13

Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

joshan1719 - Hello, and welcome to SI!

You will get a lot of advice here from people in all sorts of similar situations. I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but you came to the right place.

Have you read through any of the links in the Healing Library in the upper left? Really good stuff there.

Are you and your BF going through any type of counseling? My wife and I both found IC (individual counseling) to be very beneficial. A lot of folks here recommend marriage counseling or couples counseling, which I advocate as well.

At 24 days out, you are still experiencing some raw emotions. This is a roller coaster ride, so stay strapped in and be kind to yourself.

Being in a madhatter situation, it's really hard not to compare affairs with each other. The best bet is to avoid that as much as possible. You both have had your own actions to own up to, and you both have your own individual pain to deal with. They really don't have anything to do with each other.

Hang in there and stick around. Best of luck to you in your healing journey.

ETA: I went back and reread your introduction and just noticed this:

but that he will occasionally be in touch with her to make sure she's doing ok

So he is still in contact with the OW? Whether physical or not - unacceptable. You simply can't heal this relationship if a third person is still involved in any way, shape, or form. It's perfectly okay for you to put your foot down and demand no contact.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 5:14 PM, October 24th (Thursday)]


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

Silverhopes - I would definitely recommend Janis Spring's forgiveness book. That book was almost as helpful as Not "Just" Friends to me, if not more. She totally reshaped my view of forgiveness, and what I thought forgiveness was, based on the ideals that were taught to me in my childhood. This book has helped me not only with my marriage, but with other interpersonal relationships as well. Good stuff.

I'm sorry to hear Mr. Silver doesn't feel comfortable watching DS on his own. There is a great opportunity for some real bonding time there.

I agree that he should not be cursing at you or your son. It sounds like you have pretty strong boundaries with that, which is good. One thing I am learning from this entire process of healing, and from stories I've heard here, and interactions with my own wife, is that while a rough childhood can certainly explain certain behaviors and poor choices, it does not excuse them. What type of work is he doing on himself?

How did it wind up getting better for you guys? How is it going now?

A lot of things changed pretty drastically since d-day. My wife has been working on being more considerate, and ramping down her abusive behavior. At the same time, she is more conscious of meeting my needs, and realizing that I need a break from time to time as well, even when I'm not complaining about things. So I guess the main thing that changed there is my wife. I will have to give myself credit for being more vocal about my own needs, and having stronger personal boundaries as well. Prior to d-day, I was a bit of a doormat, and I would cater to my wife's every whim and desire. Look where that got me. Nowadays I try to be vocal, but fair at the same time.

My wife and I still have a lot of work to do, but we're getting there.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

Unagie - Good to see you posting in here again.

I think you handled the GTA situation just fine. I don't see any boundaries being crossed, and is soon as you found out he was 16, you drew your line in the sand and did the right thing. Good job! Why beat yourself up over it?

It does sound like you have some misdirected anger going on. I know when I am angry and I don't express my feelings of anger, those feelings tend to turn inward upon myself. I think this is a common thing when people tend to bottle things up. Do you have any other way to express your anger? Feel free to vent here, or keep up a journal. Physical activity can help a lot with this, too.

Try to be good to yourself. You deserve it. You've made so many huge and positive changes in your life. If you were your own friend, how would you want to treat you?

Take care, everyone.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

Hi Losfer!

I will have to give myself credit for being more vocal about my own needs, and having stronger personal boundaries as well. Prior to d-day, I was a bit of a doormat, and I would cater to my wife's every whim and desire. Look where that got me. Nowadays I try to be vocal, but fair at the same time.

It sounds like you're doing a good job! Sticking up for our boundaries is so important, and it can be an ongoing thing as our understanding of boundaries grow and expand. They're everywhere! Have you read any good books on boundaries? There's this great one I've been reading by Cloud and Townsend - "Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No, to Take Control of Your Life". It sounds like you and your wife have done a lot of good work!

What type of work is he doing on himself?

Going to school to get his diploma, reconnecting with his long-lost family (it was a long-term goal of his), staying away from alcohol (though he is waiting to quit pot until January), getting his dental work done finally (tooth extractions), taking his meds consistently... Most of the stuff is health-related, and he aims to increase his stability. His caseworker is going to try to get him to go back to work when he's finished with school, though he might or might not remain on disability. He's not much of a "why" person; because there was no kissing or sex (that he admits to) he believes that he wasn't cheating and gets angry at me for calling it that. The closest two things to a "why" were (in order): "I guess I still felt single" and "I didn't know what it meant to be in a relationship back then". I think his infidelity will be something I work through by myself. I think he wants me to be happy that he's not pursuing other girls anymore or acting single around them - and actually, I guess that is something he worked on. He claims that he doesn't even check other girls out anymore (which translates to not comparing me to them anymore, so yay). He's never written a timeline or sat down to grieve together or really "gotten" it... But I don't think everyone does, unfortunately.

Hi Unagie!

He has a tendency now to belittle me or make it obvious when he's right and I'm wrong and it pisses me the fuck off. But do I deal with it? No.

It can be really hard to be around someone who pushes our buttons and has no desire to stop. How can you take care of yourself and not turn the anger on yourself? Is there a way you could create mental distance between you and him?

How often do you two talk, now? I know you're living together to save money. Is there a way you could leave the room anytime he attempts to strike up a conversation? He is unremorseful. It's not easy to deal with someone like that.

Hi Joshan!

Sometimes I feel like he thinks I shouldn't be as upset with him because he cheated once and I had a continuing affair.

1) Like Losfer said, try not to compare the affairs. They're different hurts. One is not greater or lesser than the other one.

2) If she lived with you guys for a month, and he is still in touch with her now, he is continuing the EA, and it seems like they would have had opportunity to continue the PA during the month she was with you all. I hate to say this, but it's possible that your boyfriend isn't telling the whole truth. If he's still in touch with her, he's still in the affair.

3) It might help to read a book together. There's one I recommend to everyone called "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald. I think it could help to read a book together (if you're both wanting to) because it helps both of you get on the same page in terms of boundaries and standards you both need to do to help each other heal.

4) Transparency from both of you is so important. I hope your conversation goes well tonight. Hopefully by the end of the night he will answer why he changed his passwords, give you transparency, and then you will both have access to each others' emails and passwords etc - that is a big step.

Good luck - keep posting!

eta: salutations!

[This message edited by silverhopes at 5:57 PM, October 25th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, October 24th (Thursday)

Thanks losfer I try to rationalize and think logically and most times I win.....just sometimes I don't.

Silver we talk everyday and majority of it is okay. I work 12-14 hr days so sometimes we talk for like 10 mins. Its those other times when we have hours like my days off that he will inevitably say something so condescending. I keep calm but I know he's heard the venom creep into my tone when he does this. Moving to my mom's seems more and more likely. Was gonna live with mh BFF but her mom got sick and she has to take care of her.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
joshan1719
New Member
Member # 41091
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, October 25th (Friday)

Hi Losfer, thanks for responding. We aren't currently in counseling but I'm think we might give it a try since it's covered by my insurance through work. The A's are a problem, but we also have communication issues that need to be addressed. He's great at talking and expressing himself, while I tend to just shut up. We're often snappy with each other, and we have different plans of attack, for lack of better term, when it comes to our disagreements. He needs to address everything right now, no matter how long it takes. I like to step back and evaluate thing, think about what I'm trying to say. Which I think is part of why our argument involve him talking none stop and me sitting there.
I definitely agree we shouldn't be comparing them. I feel like when it comes to this issue it's all a matter of perspective anyone. He could say mine was worse because it was on-going and there were feelings, but I could say his was worse, because there were no emotions at all, she was just a girl to him. I view them equally. We both made a bad decision. We both broke our promise to be faithful.
I agree that he shouldn't be in contact with her. I explained that it was a deal breaker for me and I think he's gotten the picture. We won't be able to move forward if he's talking to her when he doesn't need to be.


WGF/BGF: 26
BBF/WBF: 23
DD 5 months
D-DAY for my EA/PA 8/8/12
D-DAY for his PA 10/1/13

Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, October 25th (Friday)

Hi. Just cheking in. Not much to say.
Broken hand is finally healed. Sort of.
Brokrn heart,,,not so much.
She left a week ago, with the girls.
Im at a point where i am numb with sadness.
She went to see him in jail. While i was away in grand junction ...i found out thru a mutual friend and the ensuing arguement was enough for both of us. So much for reconciling.
You all told me to be careful.
We agreed on divorcing finally. Again.
But,,,this time, i can feel its over. Odd feeling.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, November 2nd (Saturday)

Well, looks like MH folks have left the bldg. Yep, me too. Since its pretty much over, im going bak to lurking.
Its a good place to be...
I filed. She left. Who cares.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:44 PM, November 3rd (Sunday)

Hey all, just starting to get caught up. I did leave the building, and then left the state, as a matter of fact. My wife and I were out of town taking care of some family business, and just got back this afternoon.

How is everyone doing?

EH - I am really sorry to hear that she has filed. You can still find support here. I can imagine there was quite the blowup after you found out she visited him in jail while you were away. How has that odd feeling evolved over the last day or so? Do you have a lawyer retained?

Joshan - How are things going for you this week? How are the communication issues going, and has NC been put in place?

Unagie - How is the living situation coming along? Are you still thinking about moving to your mom's?

Silver - How are things going in the Silver household?

Sorry it has been awhile. This last week has been nuts. I'm hoping that this most recent family issue that we've dealt with will bring my wife and I closer as a team, although we're feeling a bit frazzled after getting home this afternoon.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Take care.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
joshan1719
New Member
Member # 41091
Default  Posted: 6:18 PM, November 4th (Monday)

Hi Losfer,

I told him NC and he said he was on board. But he created a new email account yesterday and when I was looking through his old email account there was a message in there about a job matching the profile he created, but the profile is for a different state, so I'm having a minor meltdown.


WGF/BGF: 26
BBF/WBF: 23
DD 5 months
D-DAY for my EA/PA 8/8/12
D-DAY for his PA 10/1/13

Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, November 4th (Monday)

Yea I'm still thinking of leaving. I feel utterly alone. I need to be happy again and need to be somewhere I can find happiness.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, November 4th (Monday)

Joshan - I am so sorry. Are you planning on confronting him, or are you going to stay in investigative mode at this point? How is your anxiety level? No matter what you decide to do, please take care of yourself.

Unagie - You absolutely do need to find happiness. Do you feel like the living situation is making you feel even more lonely than if you would be alone? What actions can you take towards moving out?


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
joshan1719
New Member
Member # 41091
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, November 4th (Monday)

I'll probably ask him about it when I get home from work. Mentally I can't handle waiting to find out. I'm bordering anxiety attack level, but managing to stay composed because I'm at work and I can't really lose it. I'm alone, so luckily no one will see me right now, but I can't leave until 10:30 so I'm just trying to pass the time.


WGF/BGF: 26
BBF/WBF: 23
DD 5 months
D-DAY for my EA/PA 8/8/12
D-DAY for his PA 10/1/13

Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, November 4th (Monday)

You sound similar to me, when it came to finding new information out. I would tell/confront my wife at the earliest possible opportunity that didn't impact work or my kiddo. I just could not keep that stuff in.

Maybe when you get a break from work you can take a walk outside and burn off some of that excess stress and energy, and get some fresh air?

Best of luck to you. I'll be keeping you in my thoughts. Let us know how it goes, okay? Sending you strength.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
Ashamed14
New Member
Member # 38240
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)

Hi Guys. I haven't posted in a while. I just needed to take a break.

Here's an update. My husband and I have been separated since mid-September. He got physically abusive with my son and it was the last straw for me. We are still in MC. He's in IC. I'm making calls to get IC started for me.

As part of our MC, we agreed to a "separation agreement" where he will not live at home for 6 months, plus various other things. He tries to come visit with our kids and have family dinners a couple times a week. We are supposed to go on dates at least 2x per month.

So, I've been having issues with feeling like I'm still the only one doing the heaving lifting/soul searching here.

(Quick background, I had multiple PA's in the early summer of 2012. He found out and I TT. He abused me for 2 months in every way you can imagine after my DD. I was too afraid to leave him and not be able to take the kids with me. He has been verbally abusive/emotionally abusive our entire marriage. My self-esteem is almost non-existent. In Sept. of 2012, we decided to start MC to "save our marriage". He started having an affair in November 2012-May 2013 the entire time we were in MC. While I was doing the real work during that time, he was falling in love and romancing a MW. When I found out, we started MC again (had been graduated for 2 weeks). So fast forward to this September, he throws our son against a wall, etc., and I throw him out. BUT, we are still trying to work on this, right?? Right.)

So, last night he comes home to tell me that he has tested positive for Clamydia and tries to blame me saying that I have been fucking around again. It has been 14+ months since I was with anyone other than my H. Supposedly he was with OW last in April. He took an STD panel in May and nothing turned up. Now all of a sudden he has Clamydia -- but I gave it to him.

Since my DD and I ended the TT, I have lived my life completely transparently. I started homeschooling our son, I leave my phone laying around, I closed all e-mail accounts, except for my business account, he has total access to my computer, my life is an open book. Now, especially that he has moved out, I don't know what he's doing or where 95% of the time. He changed the password on his e-mail so I can't read it anymore and I'm not allowed to look at his phone. He says he doesn't want to be in a relationship where either party feels the need to investigate the other. The reality is that neither of us has built trust back. I've been working on validating trust with him for over a year. Its been less that 6 months for me after I found out about his A. I'm still feeling very insecure in our marriage.

And he has the audacity to blame ME for giving HIM Clamydia. I've had numerous tests, annual exams, etc., in the past year and nothing has turned up for me. No symptoms.

I'm so pissed. I'm tired of feeling like I'm the only one working on our M. I'm tired of feeling like I'm an open book and he is closed. I'm tired of being blamed for my A, but don't feel like he has taken responsibility for his A. At what point is enough enough?

My friend told me last night that I live my life for everyone else and that I need to take some time to figure out what I want out of life. Also, that I have been "sad" for years. I'm broken and at a complete loss. Any advice?


MHW-42
STBX-MHH-41
Married 15 yrs.
2 children

Mine DD - 6/2012
His DD - 5/2013


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 5:55 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)

Ashamed, may I ask what is he doing to change? The emotional abuse is devastating, add in the physical abuse to both you and your child and it's hell. Why do you want to make this work? Is it because you truly believe he can change for the better or because you don't want to lose the relationship? He is obviously still sleeping around, and not using protection, willing to blameshift and not take ownership. You want my advice, I think both of you need to remain separated, truly separated and heal on your own for awhile. I am a hardcore advocate of R but your situation seems devastating and dangerous.

Losfer I can leave whenever if I move, would take me around 2-3 weeks to get it all together, money for a plane ticket, resigning, shipping all my stuff and getting my dog travel ready.

[This message edited by Unagie at 5:55 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
Ashamed14
New Member
Member # 38240
Default  Posted: 6:59 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

Unagie, he's not doing anything to change. We spoke last night and I told him that obviously we both still have trust issues, but that I've given him 15 months of proof that I'm living my life transparently. He's not giving me anything.

He told me he will not let me see his phone because he shouldn't have to, but he's not cheating. He said that I should go find some other "pussy" that will do everything I say. And, even though I had an STD panel 15 months ago, a cervical biopsy in January and a Pap Smear in April, all clear in everything, since he had an STD panel in May and was clear and is now testing positive, I'm still the one who gave him Clamydia.

I'm waiting on my test results and should know something tomorrow. I haven't had any symptoms and no other partners than him in 15 months. He has though, but its still my fault.

I feel like I'm trying to reason with someone in an alternate reality.

So I've taken your advice and received the same from my friends who know me about a real separation. We have set a schedule for him to see the kids and other than financial/kid-related, we aren't seeing each other or speaking at this point.

I know that I need to move ahead with my life and figure out what is going to make me happy. I'm trying to stay positive and not let the tragedy of the whole situation wear me down. And, to be honest, I'm thinking a lot about getting my life in order to prepare for divorce. Its not what I want though. But I don't think he will ever do the work to be the man that I need and I don't think he will ever be able to forgive me, even though he has committed the same sins. In his eyes, my infidelity was worse.


MHW-42
STBX-MHH-41
Married 15 yrs.
2 children

Mine DD - 6/2012
His DD - 5/2013


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2013
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, November 8th (Friday)

Hi All - thanks for keeping the thread alive. I've been lurking but just not been able to post only to say that not much has changed.

* H is not willing to "work" on anything. The extent of his "work" is to come home 'on time'. The fact that this alone doesn't make us "happy" and everything all better means that it is out of our control (in his opinion).

* I'm still going to IC weekly. I had 4 or 5 days where I was back to being me - at least in that I was clear-headed and able to focus at work as I used to be. Then in the last day or two I started feeling sad/angry at H. Not at anything that he *did* per se - just in general. I didn't lash out / argue or anything like that...I just started ruminating again for some reason. His reaction? "I'm really tired of dealing with this".

T-minus 1 hour and I get to talk this out with my IC.

Sending strength to everyone.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
joshan1719
New Member
Member # 41091
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, November 8th (Friday)

Just giving an update to my issues from the other day. Basically, I was letting my insecurities build things up in my head. He created the new email because it looks better than his old one. He's had the old one since he was a teenager and his new one is the more professional "firstnamelastname@gmail.com"

The job hit in a different state was a fluke. Because it's an internal system with his company it matched the job title he created, not necessarily the location, and I already knew he was looking into a new job. I've gone through his emails, his facebook, his texts. He's not talking to anyone. He's already expressed that he knows what he has here at home, he doesn't think for a minute he could find something "better" with another woman. I need to work on letting go of this anxiety.


WGF/BGF: 26
BBF/WBF: 23
DD 5 months
D-DAY for my EA/PA 8/8/12
D-DAY for his PA 10/1/13

Posts: 5 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 2:28 AM, November 11th (Monday)

I want you guys to know I've read and plan to respond just haven't had time!! But you've all been heard.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
Uneek
Member
Member # 38416
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

I haven't been around in several months, but I had to come back and post. I'm losing it, guys.

H has been struggling with work and family stuff, which has caused him to withdraw. When he withdraws, I tend to freak out a bit and then I find myself very vulnerable.

While he was out of town and unreachable about 2 months ago, a male friend and I were hanging out and he told me that he'd always found me attractive and wanted to sleep with me. I was totally honest with H about it and told him as soon as he returned home. We talked about it a lot, and I was even honest that I found it flattering and had considered it but didn't do anything.

I asked H how he felt about me hanging out with this friend in the future and he said he was fine with it as long as it was in a public place.

I have hung out with him a couple of times since and I know I need to stop. The sexual tension between us is so high. But it's also addicting, you know? I like the way it makes me feel. There's an adrenaline rush, and I get this feeling that I can't get with H, partially because of how much he's withdrawn from me. This is NOT an excuse - obviously I know that if I were to do something with this guy, that's on me and H is not to blame at all - but I also know that it's a situation where the circumstances made me ripe for the picking, so to speak.

I find myself constantly wondering what it would be like to have sex with other people - this guy, a guy at work, a former coworker, one of H's friends. H is the only person I've ever slept with and I feel like a college student or something with all the random hook ups I feel like i want to have. I don't know if it's a midlife crisis or what. I am going to talk to our counselor about it, but I needed to get it out now, to people who might be able to understand how it feels and why the allure is there, even knowing what I know about how it feels to be a BS, and who can help keep me accountable.


Posts: 114 | Registered: Feb 2013
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Uneek -

I'm not the greatest at giving advice but here goes...

First - good for you on reaching out and being honest with how you are struggling now.

Now, I'm going to say this gently...

if I were to do something with this guy, that's on me

IMO you already have "done something" with this guy. You chose to continue to hang out with a guy that told you he wanted to sleep with you. When you told your H about this the conversation should NOT have included a 'can I still hang out with him' question.

Regardless of how things are going with your relationship with your H ask yourself, is this who you want to be? Do you want to be the one that makes your H feel unloved, unsupported, and not enough? Because even if your H is not working 100% to reestablish a relationship with you *this* is not what he deserves.

And you deserve better than doing this to yourself.

Earlier this year you mentioned that your wayward self was so far removed from who you are now. It's not. All it took was a guy to tell you he wanted to sleep with you.

Understand, I'm not under any illusions that I'm different (I'm *NOT* sitting on a throne over here) I'm just saying that we madhatters must remain vigilant in keeping those walls up and boundaries in place.

You can wonder about what it's like to sleep with other people - you aren't dead. But you should not be hanging out with anyone who's already stated that he wants to sleep with you (and knows that you want to sleep with him). H's permission or not. (Unless you and H are in an open relationship...in which he ALSO gets to flirt with another person...and then that's up to you all. But given your past posts I don't believe that you and your H are in an open relationship. Or, you're open to YOUR flirting just not HIS flirting?)

IF you want to remain working on your relationship with your H go no contact with this guy ASAP. And tell your H that you have done that and are sorry you hung out with the guy after that first conversation.

Are you in IC besides the MC?


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Uneek
Member
Member # 38416
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Shadow,

Yes, we are both in IC in addition to MC. And I know you're right. I know this. I know that the attraction, the wanting to, is all about how it makes me feel and has nothing to do with the other guy. It feels good to be wanted. And I know I need to figure out what it is inside me that is so broken that this attention "helps," even though it is such a temporary fix.

I have IC today and this is definitely on the list of things to talk about.


Posts: 114 | Registered: Feb 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Uneek - stop spending time with this guy so you can get some perspective.
I'm of the opinion that no one needs opposite sex friends.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Trying2Survive1
Member
Member # 40022
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Uneek, I have to agree with the others, don't hang out with this guy. What's the point? I know it's hard to resist that rush of being desired and wanted, especially when you're feeling your needs are not being met atm. But at what cost to your own emotional health and integrity? Not to mention how your possible wayward behavior would affect your H, especially when it sounds like he is having some issues as well.


Madhatters, M 33 yrs
FWW/BS 58 BS/FWH 57
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 131 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Uneek - One thing my H like to say to me when I'm yammering on about how we need to "work" on our relationship is something to the effect of, "Well why do we have to 'work' after my affair? Why didn't you gain this new perspective after yours? You're (JAS) just playing the victim."

And, in a sense, it's true - why didn't I start working on myself / learning about affairs after I had them? My answer to him is that I was just having too much fun...and he wasn't showing emotion about it (since he knew everything about A #2 as it had started at his behest and continued with his full knowledge - not that there's anything real great about that).

Anyways, what I'm saying is if your H has any similar resentment (or if he's just not participating much) then you can use this opportunity to show your H that you DO get it and show that are "working" on it.

My favorite household member is our cat (no kids). She looks at me with such sweet and 'open' eyes and I just give her a kitty hug and kiss and smile and coo to her. (Yes I am crazy cat lady...but just one cat right now). I started wondering if I did that (showed open joy about his presence) with my H would he come around and start mirroring that back to me?

In the 'after the affair' book - I believe it's in the regaining physical intimacy section - they mention faking it until you make it. Sometimes I think that *that* is one thing I've not yet tried and maybe should.

Somewhere along the line swords must be laid down and we must make ourselves vulnerable to each other again. Rarely does that happen at the same time (1, 2, 3, go!) but maybe this is an opportunity for you to show your H some humility on your error and show him what you are willing to do for him. Well, you'd actually be doing it FOR you but that may impact him positively.


Sorry - I'm rambling here and some of this seems a little self-journaling. If anything makes sense here for you great. That was my intention even if maybe I ended up somewhere else.


ETA: In IC I'm working on being able to be 'vulnerable' as I have not been really ever in our relationship (or any other relationship). I've been super duper helpful taking care of H's practical needs/wants but I've NOT been emotionally vulnerable. I can get oogly-googly emotional about my furry friends (cats / dogs / horses) but have not with people. So that may be why I wonder about the scenario of if I were oogly googly would he soon become that way back?

[This message edited by JustAShadow at 11:44 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Uneek
Member
Member # 38416
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, November 12th (Tuesday)

Thanks y'all.

Rachel, I disagree that men and women can't be friends but I do know that being friends with this guy is not going to work. And that sucks hardcore because we've been friends for 14 years and have a ton of shared history that I don't have with all that many people who still live nearby. Sometimes I get really pissed that he even told me how he felt, and sometimes I get pissed at myself for having reciprocal feelings. Regardless of who I'm angry with, I know NC is the answer.

I know it's hard to resist that rush of being desired and wanted, especially when you're feeling your needs are not being met atm. But at what cost to your own emotional health and integrity?

Trying, that hit home for me. That is *exactly* where I'm at right now. Shadow, you mentioned that you aren't the oogy-googy one. In our relationship, I am that person and H is less so. When he gets stressed or has anxiety he pulls away from me even more in that way. Again, it doesn't give me license to turn to someone else, but I can see how the puzzle pieces fit together.

H and I had a really long conversation yesterday about all this, about how my actions (working long hours, not coming home when he thought I should be, things like that) affected him, and how his actions (not being emotionally available when I was home, primarily) affected me. We're definitely on the right path and I can feel my desire for this other guy fading away. NC will help keep that desire at bay, I hope.


Posts: 114 | Registered: Feb 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)

who here cheated first and is staying because of what they did, knowing they would have left had they not cheated first?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)

Rachelc is that how you're feeling? I can't say that's me, I thought I would leave, always did but I know enougb now to know I would not have. If that is how you're feeling then are you now thinking of leaving?

[This message edited by Unagie at 7:52 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, November 14th (Thursday)

unagie - I think I would have left right away after his two affairs had I not had one. I would have never understood what lies behind an affair - an unhealthy way to solve pain or at least keep it at bay.
I would have assumed he just wanted to hurt me.

BUT.... he did see what one did to me and then he did it again. He was either in so much pain or just plain cruel. He said he didn't do it to punish me. But, he did justify his actions based on what I did.

I think forgiveness has a component to it that includes empathy. I get the first affair. I don't the 2nd. And that's why its so hard to FORGIVE MYSELF for staying....


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 8:05 AM, November 14th (Thursday)

Rachelc - 90% of me says that yes, I do think I would *not* have stuck around as long as I have if I had not cheated first.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Justmiserable
New Member
Member # 39388
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

Gotta raise my hand on this one. I know I would have left, had I not cheated first.

It's extremely hard as a mad hatter. After DDay, I felt like I deserved it. It was 10 years from the time I cheated and I thought my husband was a saint for staying with me. I thought he was my best friend and that no one on earth would ever be as worthy of my trust.

I'm 13 months from DDay but only 3 months from the full story. It was so much more than what I did. So much more sex, lies, and the relationship he had with her was much closer. I try not to compare, but it's like I'm not giving myself permission to feel the emotions that come with all these new details. I just can't wrap my brain around it sometimes.


me-BS,FWS madhatter (36)
him-BS, FWS (39)
2 children 17 and 13
Married 13 years
Ow-(36)Stranger that he met on POF
D-day 10/03/2012
status: in recovery, NC with OW since shortly after DDay

Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

the question then becomes - are we here because we feel we deserved some payback? a gimme, so to speak....
or are we here because we know more about affairs and although we are the collateral damage, it's really not about us?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

If it's OK for me to ask...

This question you are wondering, about whether you stay because you had an affair first instead of second - is this something you are going to work on? It seems like it's a way to punish yourself, or feeling like you "deserve it". That doesn't seem healthy. It seems like, if anything, you realize as you do the work that having boundaries against being mistreated are healthy, and that leaving is actually a viable option. What will you be learning from the punishment? When will the punishment end? It just doesn't seem healthy.

I know it's easier said than done. I've stayed (and still stay) in unhealthy relationships, from family to romantic. Saying no and walking away, one by one, has taken strength. It's not easy.

I am detaching again from my H. He has been yelling too much at our DS and me. It feels unsafe. No physical violence, but still, it sets a tone that I don't like and it upsets DS. His sister and brother-in-law will be visiting this weekend. He will meet her for the first time on Saturday. While it's possible that this is adding to his stress, he has ALWAYS had a temper. That, more than his infidelities, might be the real dealbreaker for me. Our son deserves better.

And that itself - it's hard to feel like we can and should have better, isn't it? That really should say DS and I deserve better, shouldn't it? Why am I so motivated to do well for my son, but not myself? We find ourselves doing for others before ourselves, either out of habit, or out of shame, or out of fear for being seen as selfish if we do for ourselves. After all, our A's were selfish. I think we need to learn a different kind of "selfish", a healthy version of "selfish". One that takes care of ourselves without compromising others. One that involves good boundaries.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

I think I've done enough work to realize that I'm staying because I realize what he did was about him. Sure, it might be because of what I did but I can't heal him, he had to do that himself and he didn't so... The wheels fell off the bus....
He's great now.
And I think I could forgive one affair. But I don't understand why he found another woman a couple months after the first, seeing what that one did to me. He must have teLly been angry and hurting. But he has no more strikes left. None. And even the crap he pulled after his affairs scream pain but should be deal breakers- he called my rape my 2nd affair, it took him 5 months to sell his affair car....
I can't handle any more. None. Afraid of I see either OW I'll run. And honestly, who wouldn't...


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:31 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

he called my rape my 2nd affair

I remember this. I remember you posting about telling about it in counseling, and how it sounded like it had hit him and he was beginning to understand what had happened to you... And then later part of his "why" was "You got to have 2, so I got to have 2". Sickening and heartless. What happened to you was NOT an affair; it wasn't even remotely consensual. And I find his attitude that it was to be very disturbing.

(((rachelc)))


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, November 15th (Friday)

Rachelc I think you need to examine why you're staying. Correct me here if I am remembering incorrectly but didn't you recently say the 2 of you are staying in shape and trying to keep attractive to make sure you can still attract someone in case it doesn't work? I really feel like you no longer want to be there 100%. The comments he's made about your rape, have you 2 fully discussed how they made you feel? I think a lot of what pisses me off as well is that after my confessions I could never imagine hurting my xSO that way again, but he had no issues continuously hurting me over and over and his need to compare to minimize his actions cut deeply as well. If we had stayed together there is no telling how much that would have impacted me. I hope you think on all this and keep talking to us.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, November 15th (Friday)

the 2 of you are staying in shape and trying to keep attractive to make sure you can still attract someone in case it doesn't work

I think we are both SUBCONSCIOUSLY doing this. He would never admit to it. I do because I do not feel 100% like I can jump in this marriage. plus, it makes me feel better about myself.

at any rate - I think we are clear about the rape/affair comment but there are some things you just can't unhear. Our MC set him straight on that.

We have good days. He's being great now. But, the hurt fog lasted a long time with him. I am still in limbo. I am here because I'm kind of waiting it out to see what happens. I'm giving what I can, trying to get myself healed.
But part of me feels like he doesnt' deserve this new me. There has been too much hurt.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:15 AM, November 15th (Friday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, November 16th (Saturday)

Hi there you all.

Just so you know, I might not be on here as much for a while. I reached the final straw tonight with Mr Silver.

His sister and brother-in-law are in town, which is wonderful. Of course I know my H is struggling with his own feelings on that.

The thing is, that's not an excuse to yell and curse at us. And that's something that's never gone away. It's time to be honest with myself and admit that this has ALWAYS been a problem and has absolutely no signs of changing on his part.

Tonight I was trying to change my son's diaper. He's sick right now, so he's even moodier and more resistant than usual, which I understand. But my H decided to help me change him. As my son struggled, my H began to yell at me for taking too long, and the cursewords began, even though I was fumbling as fast as I could. When I had wiped up son mostly, I was trying to calm him down, and apparently I did the wrong thing from H's perspective. He yelled at me about not using a baby wipe fast enough, a bunch of sarcasm about "do we know how to use a baby wipe?" and then slammed the door after himself. All things he does ordinarily. All things that are NOT OK when they happen several times a day.

When he came back, I told him that him cursing at me and yelling at me just now had really hurt me, and that it was not OK, that I had been trying my best with our son, and he tore me down. He turned it around on me to say that I was just trying to say he couldn't do anything right and that I was always trying to call him on something, always trying to make him feel bad about something, yelled and cursed at me some more, said more sarcastic and cruel things, then pulled the blanket over his head. I tried to call him on shutting me down when I tell him my feelings, said it wasn't fair to turn that around on me. And that was it. That will be the last time he has the privilege of knowing how I feel. That will be the last time I try to share my feelings and be open with him.

My caseworker is not going to help me find the applications. In spite of being in the mental health system, where a caseworker's job is to help the clients with their paperwork, which is something I've struggled massively with ever since I had to start doing paperwork at age 14 (my first job), she's going to leave me to figure it out for myself. OK then. I am going to find the paperwork for a new place to live, no matter how long it takes. I have no idea how or where to start, but I'm going to figure it out.

I am going to flense down every single possession in the basement until I can carry it out of here with my own two hands. I've already started tonight. If I can help it, son and I will be spending as little time as possible around either my H or my godmother, or really as little time as possible around anyone who is either manipulative or emotionally abusive. Who cares if we're alone, at least we'll be safe. I am leaving this asshole who cannot even bother to treat us with respect and who cannot even take responsibility when he hurts our feelings. He has not been a responsible father. He has not taken care of our son. And he tears me down.

I've got a lot to do now. Take care everyone.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, November 18th (Monday)

Oh silver please take care.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, November 18th (Monday)

(((silverhopes)))

Sending hugs and mojo your way. Take care of you and your little one!


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, November 18th (Monday)

((Silver))

Ultimately, you have to do what is best for you and for your son. That can't be an easy choice. Sending you strength, and please know that we are here for any support that you might need.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, November 18th (Monday)

Thank you everyone. I'm feeling completely nuts. Not well. The verbal abuse has got to stop. Even if that means son and I leaving.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, November 22nd (Friday)

How is everyone doing now? Are you all doing OK with the holidays coming up?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, November 23rd (Saturday)

Hi Silver - We're doing pretty good. We've got Thanksgiving, which is a trigger holiday, and the 3rd antiversary of d-day #1 coming up next week. All in all, I feel like things have been remarkably calm this year compared to the last two years.

I did have a dream about the OM last night, though. I dreamed that my wife and I were at some sort of event where OM's band was playing. He was there, along with all of his band mates, and all of their family and friends, many who were privy to some level of knowledge about the affair in real life.

I saw him strutting around getting ready for the show, and in my dream I could feel my anger rising. I started to feel that sense of murder that was familiar to me during the first two years past d-day. Then I turned to my wife and said firmly, "I need to go for a walk".

She said, "Good for you", and we both walked out of there, and ended up having a nice walk on the beach as I calmed down, and the dream got happier from there.

Pretty intense dream, and very symbolic of letting go, if you ask me!

Hope everyone is hanging in there as we come up on this holiday season.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
notsosureanymore
Member
Member # 18051
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, November 23rd (Saturday)

I have been reading here from time to time. i belong here too. best wishes.

Posts: 221 | Registered: Feb 2008
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Hope everything will go well for your this week, Losfer. Thanksgiving must definitely be a very triggery time of year for you guys. That is such an interesting dream. I agree - it sounds very symbolic of letting go. What did your wife think about the dream? It is so neat that in the dream you were able to say what you needed, she was able to hear you, and you two left as a united front and things got better from there. Definitely healing!

notsureanymore and all other lurkers - feel free to post whenever you need! Or read. Sometimes the forum might go through some quiet periods, but someone will always eventually respond. We're still here.

It's weird, this season ought to be triggery for me. It was when my H was carrying on with main OW, after I'd been kicked out of the house (but H and I were still together) and she was yet another housemate. But for some reason, I could care less about my H and his wimmenz. This time of year is completely about someone special in my family for me now. Her birthday would have been last week. My thoughts have been on her completely. A much better way to spend this time of year, I think, thinking about her.

Otherwise, struggling. Having trouble getting everything done to get life in order. Mostly mental health related, and it's frustrating and kinda scary sometimes. With Mr Silver, he ridiculed me again while his family was visiting, and I went off on him. He actually apologized. And he's drastically reduced having the outbursts because I called him on it. I'm a royal bitch at the moment. I hope I temper it so I can be firm without being mean or rude.

Take care everyone, and Happy Thanksgiving!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:07 AM, November 28th (Thursday)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I have some peace, due to detachment.
The thought of experiencing the holidays having to share our children makes me so sad...

i'm thinking of just settling for good enough.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, November 30th (Saturday)

I hate hate hate this. You all know I'm still living here and detachment was my way to go. We would talk but I wouldn't allow myself to get emotional and talking would be mundane subjects. He got rly rly sick this week. High fever, delirious, couldn't walk without help so of course I backslide and help take care of him because that's what I always did. Now I caught whatever he had on top of my bronchitis, hacking cough, high fever, I have to miss work and I'm scared they will fire me but my boss tells me I cant answer phones like this (the bronchitis had me out for 2 weeks with no voice). I feel miserable and he's better and has helped take care of me but nowhere near how I helped him. Cant say I'm surprised, he tossed food in the oven for me and I had to take it out. He did go to the store and buy me juice, and is getting medicine when I need it so he isn't doing nothing. I don't know I just feel miserable and woe is me so his may also be partly pity party.

Another thing he asker me to move my stuff out of storage and back in the house. He says so I can save on the bill and not have to go back and forth when I need something. I think I had a blank look on my face because he asked me what was wrong. In my head I'm going we broke up, why would moving my stuff back in be a good idea? You think I want to go through having to pack it all again when I leave or when you're ready to date, which is looking to buy much sooner then me.

Okay sry this was partial pity party and partial vent. Not sure I'm looking for an answer but feel better no that its out.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, November 30th (Saturday)

Unagie- so you are a person who helps others out. When they desperately need it. Be proud that you are this way.
Hugs to you! Wish I had more advice.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, December 9th (Monday)

Just checking in with all of you.

Still in limbo land. 18 months post d day, I think I'm starting to really hate year two. I feel so crazy. Someone posted a pic in general that describes it perfect for me. I want to snuggle with him on the couch eating popcorn and light him on fire and throw him into a tornado at the same time.

Gah.

What to do.

Doesn't help that he's so amazing and wonderful. Now.

Gah.

Blah.

Plain of lethal flatness, party of one please.


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 600 | Registered: Dec 2012
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, December 9th (Monday)

918 - that popcorn/fire/tornado picture sums it up for me too.

I can't really know where I am. I only know it's not where I want it to be. Or it *is* where I want to be because apparently I'm still not ready (strong enough) to just walk away...


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, December 9th (Monday)

(((Justashadow)))

I got nothing but hugs.

Pass the popcorn...


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 600 | Registered: Dec 2012
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, December 13th (Friday)

Any other madhatters who also have mental health issues?

Not sure what to write, I want to write so much and ask for help, but the mental health symptoms are making it challenging right now. So I guess just acknowledging it will have to be enough right now.

Aside from that and other stuff, there were three things that happened with H and other girls this week. I know the answer right now is to detach, and I'm acknowledging that mental health makes it harder sometimes.

1) he said he "tried to do things with those girls but couldn't get their numbers". He thinks there's nothing wrong with this. That he admitted he "tried to do things" was the new part.

2) at my mother's birthday he left to smoke and a young woman got close to his face asking for cigarette and light (he complied). Claimed he tried to non-verbally signal he was married; his repeated language about "all those girls there in their short (ETA: or was it "little"?) black dresses" negates the effect.

3) today, said something about his TA telling him about graduation. First of all, he knows I want to know everything about his classes, and he never mentioned even having a TA… a female one at that. Is that why he didn't want my help on math, after asking me so long ago and planning that I would help him? He yelled at me outright and cursed me out when I offered a couple of months ago… Was it because he has HER now? He could have told me. He's talked about his female teacher, never about the TA (and his first real love affair back in the day was with a married TA; he was 19. Plus he used to hit on some of the counselors from our programs)... So what else hasn't he said?

I know the drill. Detach. Note to self: "he's single" mindset needs to be employed. Not to mention, he has made it clear that I cannot come to him to talk about these things without facing serious emotional consequences (he brutally cuts me down when I try).

Why do I feel lost?

Maybe now is a time where I know I'm alone, know it's been like this for a long time in terms of having no one to turn to… But it really sucks especially right now, with the goddamn voices. But being alone is important right now, because for my own vulnerability, my boundaries are weakest right now. So it's time to enjoy it sucking to be alone.

Any good comedies to recommend? Maybe a life-planning book?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:43 AM, December 13th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, December 13th (Friday)

this may be TMI but does anyone else feel they HAVE to make love when the other spouse wants it because they GAVE it to someone else at some point in time? I feel like I can never say no. To be clear, it's not bad love-making, but sometimes I feel like he wants to do it just to scratch an itch, not connect emotionally and I can't stand that.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, December 13th (Friday)

Silver - hugs to you. It sucks when you can't share and feel at least some empathy from your partner. I'm in some sort of something right now and formulating words is tough. Just wanted to let you know that I'm listening.

Comedies? if you have Netflix streaming 3 seasons of this is online.

* The Vicar of Dibley (TV show). Quirky silly humor set in small town England (sort of a more comedic Northern Exposure). 30 minute episodes so easy to jump in and out of. Watch through the credits of each episode for a joke. (And if you don't have Netflix then most episodes can be found on YouTube - most though in 5 minute increments. Just search for "Vicar of Dibley Season 1"


Rachelc - sorry I can't chime in on this one.

I wish a good weekend for all of us.

[This message edited by JustAShadow at 3:15 PM, December 13th (Friday)]


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:24 PM, December 13th (Friday)

Thank you JAS. I will check out the Vicar of Dibley. I could use some laughter.

I just casually asked, "So your class finally got a TA?" He mentions that there has already been a TA, sometimes two. But won't say anything else about them/her. Love the way he lies. We had a serious conversation at the beginning of his classes a year and a half ago, and I wanted to know who was in them and if he noticed any of them. He only mentioned the teacher and a bunch of students he didn't pay attention to. Repeatedly, over the past year and a half, he's reassured me he has no designs on the teacher (even though I didn't ask after the first month). Never mentioned having a TA. Pretty big lie, considering his history. And she's a girl? No wonder. I am feeling so upset right now.

Sorry, rachelc, I wish I had advice.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, December 14th (Saturday)

Damn it. It just keeps getting better. I asked more questions about the TA. One thing I've noticed: whenever Mr. Silver has a LACK of detail about someone, it usually means he's had inappropriate conversations with them minimum and tried (or succeeded) in getting together with them on the other end. It was that way for all the OWs. Guess who he was being as vague about as possible just now? That's right. The TA. When I asked questions, I said "he" just to test him. He didn't correct me. Then I outright asked again if she were a she, and he said she was. Then he tried to change the subject and mentioned how crazy it is that everyone who works at the school are girls. He has all sorts of details about how short the receptionist lady is, or the way the teacher's eye wanders, and yet he couldn't talk about the TA. His tone even changed when he was answering questions about her. It got flatter, the way it always does when I'm asking him something uncomfortable.

I am so angry.

I have felt so uncomfortable the last several months where he asked me if he looked nice before going to class two times a week. I saw all the effort he put into it, and also the way he was less interested in sex on those days, and I wondered who he was trying to impress. But tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. Tried to convince myself that he was just dressing to feel good about himself. I asked him several times if anyone gave him any compliments, and he always said no (flatly). I think he must be dressing for her. What a fricken asshole. How the hell am I going to get away from him now? I am alone.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 4:38 AM, December 14th (Saturday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, December 15th (Sunday)

Small update…

Been focusing on my clutter problem for the last day. It's taking my thoughts and emotions off Mr. Silver. If I can put all that energy into the clutter instead of into Mr. Silver's choices, then I may one day have cleanliness and order over my things yet! Small steps. It will get easier.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:31 PM, December 15th (Sunday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:31 AM, December 23rd (Monday)

How is everyone doing during the holiday season? How are you handling triggers? Sending out warm wishes to all the MadHatters here and away...


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, December 23rd (Monday)

Hi Silver - I have had de-cluttering the garage on my mind for quite some time. Unfortunately, I've not gotten beyond the "thinking" stage. Glad you are making strides. I think that it *is* a good thing to do (for so many reasons).

Best wishes to all on this thread (lurkers and posters) that we make it through the holiday season unscathed.

I'm not one for resolutions and such but I'll be very happy to say good riddance to 2013. Hoping for a better 2014 (or at least a better *me* in 2014!)


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
hikingwithkoda
Member
Member # 41891
Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Hello, all -

I'm new and apparently, I'm a "Madhatter" (I haven't found the origin of this term here, but I guess it applies to me). I'm still in the "Just Found Out" phase, having just discovered my wife of 19 years has been having a PA with our daughter's softball coach for the past few months (at least, that's what she admits to).

But, 14 or 15 years ago, I had a PA with a coworker that actually lasted a little longer than my WW's. I can't bring myself to hate my WW, because I lied, cheated and deceived as well.

I keep focusing on why hers is "worse", or at least "different." Then I think I'm just deluding myself to justify what I did. Back then, our sex life was almost non-existent, due to a combination of physical and emotional issues. I tried to be supportive, but I met my OW at a time when it had literally been months since my wife and I had been intimate. She had been dumped by her husband and we both needed reassurance we were attractive and desirable. I broke it off when things with my BW improved and we decided to try to start a family.

This current A, though, takes place when we have a 10-year-old daughter, and if our sex life is unsatisfying, it's entirely because she has once again withdrawn from me. I've stopped trying to initiate intimacy so much, (because one can only get sexually rejected a few thousand times before you get the message!)but have never stopped expressing my desire for my beautiful wife. She, however, got what she needed outside the marriage.

Am I just deluding myself? Is an A just an A? Or is there an actual difference between what we did: I sought sexual satisfaction outside of a cold, sexless marriage and she spurned a willing partner to have the excitement and novelty of an A?


Me: BH, 50
Her: WW, 50
D-Day 12/27/2013 3-month PA with family friend

But also:
Me: WH, 50
Her: BW, 50
D-day: 12/27/2013 (about A that happened 14-15 years ago w/coworker)


Posts: 69 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Southern California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Hello, and welcome, hikingwithkoda.

A "madhatter" as it is referred to on this site is someone who has worn both hats within their current relationship: the betrayed and the wayward.

Affairs all have some commonalities. For one, in order for a person to have an A, they choose to. It's not because of the current state of the marriage or relationship. If things are not going well for either or both parties, counseling can be sought, or the couple can split up. An A is an active breaking of a commitment with another person.

That being said, you and your wife both have some work to do. First one is trying to dig for root causes for the affair. What made you decide to do that? That's a question your wife should be digging for as well. The flip side of the coin is that you are both going to be hurting for same and for different reasons. You both had A's, but they had different aspects to them, etc.

It's a complicated thing. I hope you stick around, because there are a lot of folks here with really good advice. I'd also recommend "The Healing Library" in the upper left hand corner of the page to help you get started.

Are either of you in individual or marriage counseling? That can be of great help.

There are plenty of books suggested in The Healing Library, one of them being "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, another being "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald. Both great books to help you get started.

Keep posting and reading here. I'm really sorry for the circumstances that brought you here, but I'm glad you came to the right place.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Begrudgingly trudging back to mh.
Hope for a better year.
I hate that lump in the throat i get when i think of her now.
Anyways,,,

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 9:44 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

I know i throw stuff out there haphazardly, so trollish.
But it seems to help me to see u all.
Im reading, and pulling the same load.
Rainbows and unicorns farting candy hearts to all.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:07 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Hey, EH! Good to see you. Hope you are hanging in there.

Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:00 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Thank u los, just feeling crappy today. Only saw the kids whej relatives brought them. Two whole days. Yay.
Good thing though, we r on the divorce road for sure.
Relief.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

Welcome hikingwithkoda. I'm sorry that you find yourself here but glad that you have found us. SI is full of great advice and supportive people (even if that support needs to be a knock on the head with a friendly 2 x 4).

I'm going to reiterate a lot of what Losfer has already said (because it's good and sometimes we need to read things more than once to have them sink in).

Each A is the same and each A is different. It's often recommended that you and your W don't get into comparing A's (in your IRL conversations or in the conversations you have with yourself). The round robin of, "Well I least *I* didn't do XYZ" can just keep going back and forth and gets you nowhere. You chose to have an A and it affected your wife. Your wife chose to have an A and it is affecting you. The fact that you had an A first does NOT give her a "pass" to have her A now.

Being lied to and deceived hurts. The fact that we, as madhatters, have been both the deceiver and the deceived doesn't make any of this easier. It only makes the unraveling of the why's & how's & what now's more complicated (in an already complicated situation).

You don't say how you and your W got over/through your A? Was there marriage and/or individual counseling (MC / IC)? Did the both of you "work" through it or just rugsweep? (rugsweep: the A is over, we're together, let's just forget this whole thing happened).

IF you rugswept, I'd make a strong recommendation to NOT do that this time. I say that as one who has rugswept 3 times - my H wants to rugsweep a 4th time and I'm trying to get him to NOT rugsweep a 4th time. One reason he wants to rugsweep (besides the standard reasons...) is that we rugswept both of my affairs so why should he be "punished" by not getting to rugsweep this one? (see the round robin there? And how it leads nowhere?)

You do have choices - and you don't have to choose right now (if you don't want to).

Read, read, read (Healing Library, General, Wayward, and go back to the beginning of this thread - or a previous one. for us MH's there's good info in each area).

EH - I'm glad you popped in to give an update. I hope that 2014 is a much better year for you. I'm sorry that you say you are on the road to D but am glad that you say you are feeling some relief. This is certainly draining stuff.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
hikingwithkoda
Member
Member # 41891
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

Thanks Losfer and JustAShadow. To answer your question, JAS, she never knew about my A. I admitted it in the feverish daze of Dday. She's been awesome, actually, in not using it to excuse or deflect her own behavior (a big part of why I think we'll be able to R).

Right now I'm really stuck on "how can I be so hurt when I did the same thing to her?" So I look for what's different, to justify how awful I feel. My affair was before our daughter was born, she didn't know the OW, but the OM is a family friend, I ended it but my WW got caught, etc.

I know that that's bullshit.

Being lied to and deceived hurts. The fact that we, as madhatters, have been both the deceiver and the deceived doesn't make any of this easier. It only makes the unraveling of the why's & how's & what now's more complicated (in an already complicated situation).

Thank you for this. It really helps.

[This message edited by hikingwithkoda at 10:00 AM, January 3rd (Friday)]


Me: BH, 50
Her: WW, 50
D-Day 12/27/2013 3-month PA with family friend

But also:
Me: WH, 50
Her: BW, 50
D-day: 12/27/2013 (about A that happened 14-15 years ago w/coworker)


Posts: 69 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Southern California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

hikingwithkoda - Love the name, by the way. I have a dog named Koda that I like to go hiking with!

Your situation is similar in ways to mine, and I have also struggled with not comparing. My A involved two physical encounters within a week, and then I stopped the A. My wife and I weren't married at the time, in fact we were only dating for about four months, and prior to the A my wife (girlfriend at the time) told me that the status of our relationship was "up in the air". Yet I did what I did, when neither of us had agreed to be with other people. I had all sorts of justifications in my head. My AP was my friend's wife. I partially justified my actions by the fact that he was openly cheating on her, and had actually tried to get me to sleep with her one night when I was over at their house and there was another girl there that he wanted to sleep with. Things weren't going well in my own relationship. My AP basically threw herself at me. I was young. I was stupid. While all of these statements are true, the only responsibility that I had was for my own actions, which eventually did hurt my wife when I told her, 15 years later, two weeks after I discovered her affair.

In my wife's case the OM was someone whom I thought was a friend of mine as well. This affair went on behind my back for the first 15 years of our relationship, until I caught them. The biggest disappointment was finding out that my then seven year old son was not biologically mine.

As you can see, the implications and the circumstances of my affair and my wife's affair were pretty drastically different. The common theme is that my wife and I both had some damaged parts of us that allowed us to choose to have our own respective affairs. My wife's reasons were different than mine. The other common theme is that both of us were hurt by each others affairs. I personally feel like my hurt is deeper and further reaching, but that doesn't negate the fact that my wife was still hurt by my affair, and that I kept it a secret for so long.

One thing that has helped me is a bit of compartmentalization. Viewing the affairs as two separate entities. We try really hard not to intermix the two affairs into the same conversation, as that results in a major breakdown of communication into comparisons, finger pointing, and competition for who is feeling the most pain. As madhatters, you'll have to eventually come up with some "ground rules" for how you are going to divide your time when discussing these things. In the case of our relationship, the majority of the time was admittedly focused upon my wife's affair, and all of the implications involved. You may or may not have a similar experience.

Tailor things to your needs, your wife's needs, and the dynamics of your relationship, and things can work out in the long run, with a lot of time, love, work, transparency, honesty, and time (yes, I mentioned time twice for a reason). In the meantime do not forget to focus on you and your own individual healing. That is of utmost importance. You've been through a trauma, and now is the time to make sure you are eating when you can, drinking plenty of water, and taking some time for yourself to gain mental clarity via whatever healthy method you can find.

Take care.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

hiking - I just got caught up with your story and other posts. I'm sorry that I didn't take notice of the larger picture earlier.

If you haven't seen the FAQs in the healing library take a look at # 24 on the FAQ for BS's
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ24 (How to know if my WS is committed to R)

Also, take a look at the book, "After the Affair" by Janis Spring. It's a pretty quick read and there are chapters with questions / exercises on for both you and your W to help reconnect & talk through things after the discovery of an affair. I think it and "Not Just Friends" are the two most recommended books here - and with good reason (IMO).

Remind yourself that it's OK for you to feel traumatized / in shock / up & down because your world has turned upside down. NOTE: Although your W is handling news of your A seemingly fine now - there may come a time as you both work through this that it starts to dawn on her.

I'm glad to hear that your W is being awesome and open right now - I hope that continues and that you two can support each other as you work through this.

Take what you need and leave the rest. YMMV.

[This message edited by JustAShadow at 11:17 AM, January 3rd (Friday)]


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 4:12 AM, January 4th (Saturday)

So,,,its 3am local time, and i just got a call from relatives in albuquerque. Wtf.
This dumb woman i married was thrown in the clink tonight.
But no, not in alb, where she was supposed to be. Here, in denver. She was arrested trying to carry contraband into the county lock up. I dont know what,,,but i do know shes being held on felony charges. Here. In denver. Shes supposed to be in alb, with the kids. Where the hell is that jerry springer kat...
My relatives are going to bring my little ones sunday.
I win, rite?....
Gee i wonder wat fuking jail rat she went to see.
This has got to freekin stop.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 4:23 AM, January 4th (Saturday)

Damn, but this really will be a game changer. Any obsevations from u guys? As shtty as it sounds, my first reaction is a bit of giddy anticipation, as the papers have already been filed.
I just couldnt get her out of my life fast enough, but this?

And yep, im still a madhatter through it all. Sux.
Reap wat u sow.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 4:30 AM, January 4th (Saturday)

So....anyway, good morning. I cant sleep now.
Im going to watch some MST3K. And pop a dozen or so zoloft.
Make that ambien.
Well, this IS denver, maybe just go to wall mart and get some weed.
Crap im loopy.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 4:34 AM, January 4th (Saturday)


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, January 4th (Saturday)

That is all sorts of crazy, EH. Any idea what she was trying to smuggle in? From what I understand, charges can be different based upon what she was trying to smuggle in. If it was something like cash or cigarettes, she would probably get a slap on the wrist. If it was something like hard drugs, weapons, or a cell phone, she could be looking at a felony/jail time. If you say she was hit with a felony charge, she may be in there for awhile. That is my uninformed understanding of it, anyway, I could be completely wrong.

Do you know if there's anyone that is going to try to bail her out while she awaits sentencing, or if bail is even an option? For your own sake and your kids' sake, it'd probably be best to know if/when she makes bail, so you know if she is out and about. I don't know if she would do something like try to grab the kids and head back down south across the state line.

Plus, what kind of people is she hanging around? Now is definitely the time to bring your kids under your wings, protect them, and keep them safe and out of harm's way.

Good luck!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, January 5th (Sunday)

Well ive since found out she was trying to transport heroin
Hence, the felony charges. From convos with mutual friends, family , shes been going , as her aunt puts it, "going out with thugs" all the time now.
Me, im so over it. Theres no one to bail her out, shes not even tried to call me, so...my kids will be here today, im going to hold them all day tight.
On a somewhat positive note, my attorney like this development...a lot.
She says to me on the phone yesterday, practically shouting,
We got her where we want her.

Shark,,,she is..


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, January 5th (Sunday)

I dont drink ,,,much but im grabbing a beer. At

8 am. Cheerr. S.
Kids ll b here thiz aftr noon.
Whoops. Drank two before posting.
No more.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, January 6th (Monday)

Hey EH - That's quite another turn of events. Continue working on detaching from her and protecting your kids. The crazy vortex that she has put herself in - you don't have to be any part of that. Keep eating, drinking water, and try to steer clear from too much of the other stuff. You will survive this. I hope today is a better day for you.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
MegM
Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 2:31 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)

Hello MH Forum

I have stopped into post for the first time in a very long time on SI and just wanted to make sure I said hello to old friends and newbies here.

I have been off SI for pretty much the whole two year marker of H's affair season. The last few months have been quite crazy with personal and work demands.

With the New year under way I guess like we do, I have done a bit of a reassessment. I hope to be around a little bit more.

take care everyone.

Meg


BS / fWS me 41 (@ DDay)
fWS / BS him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 ch(6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulders"

Posts: 669 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:30 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)

Hey Meg nice to hear from you. I hope you'll start posting again.

EH that's insane. I know you're happy you're getting out but omg she is screaming for help. She sounds like she's going to hit her rock bottom soon but unfortunately it may take jail time to do so.I'm so sorry.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
MegM
Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, January 8th (Wednesday)

Thanks for the 'welcome back' Unagie.

I have just read back over the last month of posts.

Hi Rachelc , Losfer, Silver - how are you all doing?

EH - I wholeheartedly support your priority in protecting your children. Have you had further legal advice? Given the nature of the allegations against her - can you push for temporary custody and a protection order against her - pending an outcome? Detachment is certainly your friend and good on you for the clarity you have achieved in such difficult circumstances.

Silver - I have read through you posts over December - how has the last couple of weeks gone for you?
I understand from many of our conversations how difficult your path is and the complexity that mental health issues bring to it. I don't have a clinical condition - I have moved in and out of clincal depression over my adult life and that with my childhood experiences certainly magnified my trauma post discovery.
I hope you are doing ok. (( Silver))

Meg


BS / fWS me 41 (@ DDay)
fWS / BS him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 ch(6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulders"

Posts: 669 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

Hi Meg! It's good to see you again!

The mental health issues have been worse lately and for the last few weeks. It's probably a combination of the holidays, unrealistic expectations, and in general being stressed. I think the last big hurdle has been crossed; yesterday was my birthday, and I posted something on Dad's Facebook (after he liked a picture my mom posted of me) thanking him for giving me life and sending him love. Not only didn't he respond, but he liked something someone else posted afterward on his wall. I just discovered this, and it hurts. I promised myself that this was the year I would let him go, but I'm having a hard time picturing what that works like. Do I not acknowledge his birthday or Father's Day this year? Do I block his email address so I won't keep looking to see if he wrote? Unfriend him? How do I move on from my father turning his back on me?

Anyway, that plus a million other things… One thing at a time. But not doing so well.

hikingwithkoda:

Remind yourself that it's OK for you to feel traumatized / in shock / up & down because your world has turned upside down. NOTE: Although your W is handling news of your A seemingly fine now - there may come a time as you both work through this that it starts to dawn on her.

I think JAS makes a good point. If/when this happens, what can help is taking turns, about who is wearing what hat. Perhaps for this day of healing, one person wears the BS hat and the other wears the WS hat. But the important thing is to switch off and fully embrace/own each role, so you can help each other heal.

exhaustedheader: How is everything going at home? How old are your kids?

Hope everyone here is doing OK. Happy 2014! May this be a healthier year, day by day


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
datura222
New Member
Member # 39766
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

I am new to this thread.

Here is our story.

We met at age 17, and have been together ever since. I should have noticed various red flags back when I met H that he had issues, but I chalked them up to his age, and that boys will be boys.

I found a mega stash of porn mags within a month of dating him. It devastated me....he threw them out.

I came to realize that he was a mother-enmeshed man (covert/emotional incest victim) and he ALWAYS put her feelings above mine and allowed her to boundary stomp and say toxic comments to me...I took this, as I had no family (left home at 15) and H was all I had back then when we were dating.

After we married, I just hoped he would grow out of his mommy issues. I did also occasionally catch him viewing porn...I did get upset, and he would abstain for awhile.

7 years ago, I found a job I loved which included a lot of socializing with many people (a fitness center). I began to receive attention from other men; men who seemed more adult-like and emotionally available than my H. I began to emotionally disconnect from my husband due to the years of resentment and anger at his PA tendencies, emotional unavailability and mommy issues. I have to admit that I was a terrible wife to him during this time. I was 30, going to bars with friends and completely compartmentalizing my life into 2 parts: a) my married self, b) my work self. I met a man and formed a friendship with him after a few months...no dating, just subtle flirting. Once night he joined myself and a friend out to a club, I drank a little too much and wound up back at his house for a ONS.

During the act, I knew that what I was doing was wrong...I began to dissociate, and just wanted it over. I am an expert at dissociation due to working in the adult entertainment industry at a very young age-again, I had no parental support from the age of 15 and had lost my way-DH back then when he was just my BF knew what I did for a living).

Anyhow, the next day, I quit my job (I was only part-time, and looked elsewhere for a job) and shut down my facebook account. I never spoke to the OM ever again. I also never told H of my ONS.

Let's fast forward to June 2013. My son finds some pictures that he tells me "are bad" on his tablet. I look at them. There are 2 pictures of the same woman in lingerie...I notice a watermark...google it, and learn that the pictures were of an escort at a local agency. My heart sinks.

He swears he was just looking at pictures, and was not looking at escort agencies.

I don't believe him. I schedule a polygraph...he still denies doing anything and says he will gladly take the test to prove it to me.

he takes poly#1 and fails. He discloses that he had one encounter with an escort that same year (7 years ago) that I had my ONS (remember, he did not know I had my ONS yet). This is why he thought he could pass....that his ONS had happened so many years ago. I told him he would need to disclose EVERYTHING and would need to take another poly. He passes the next 2 polys...it was only once, and those pictures were from google images, not an agency, which I tested for myself...if you clicked on the picture it would take you to a page with just her pictures, and automatically download them to the tablet without you being aware. If he had been looking for escorts, there would have been so many pics downloaded while he went "shopping". He said he felt guilty for using porn and would sometimes "downgrade" to using pics to not feel so guilty. It is now very apparent that he has coping issues, and uses porn to self-medicate when stressed (he did not used to open up to me, as he didn't know how...both of his parents are emotionally stunted/unavailable as well)

I realized that I had to be honest myself and finally told him about my ONS. I offer to do a poly myself, which he says is not required as I read like a book during that time. He said he thought something was up as he felt so rejected and that I was emotionally absent for that entire year. He said he felt like crap that the only person he had in his life (he doesn't have many close friendships with other men, and no other siblings) was utterly rejecting him in every way. He said he felt he cold not approach me with his thoughts because it was clear I did not care about him (which I can say was true as I was completely disconnected from him...I didn't want him touching me).

In retrospect, after lots of soul searching, I now know I should have just left when it became evident that he would not put me first in the marriage. he was essentially "married to his mother". I threatened separation so many times before I had my ONS....I told him other men were interested in me....told him I was miserable etc....I should have done the right thing, and not had such shitty boundaries.

Anyhow, here we are...7 years later, 3 kids in the mix, trying to get through everything and it has been so tough on both of us.

I constantly compare what he did to what I did....I now know I cannot ever win doing this. We both fucked up and are broken people.

I hope we can get through this nightmare :(

[This message edited by datura222 at 1:39 PM, January 9th (Thursday)]


In R
Dday: Father's Day 2013
We are madhatters.
Husband took a polygraph due to the risky nature of his infidelity.
Polygraphs: 1 fail, disclosure, passed 2

Posts: 44 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Bay Area CA
hikingwithkoda
Member
Member # 41891
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

I constantly compare what he did to what I did....I now know I cannot ever win doing this. We both fucked up and are broken people.

I've read all these Madhatter posts in this thread and I still don't know how to avoid this, either. I mean, I know in my head that it's pointless to compare, that my A doesn't justify hers or vice versa, but I keep doing it, and in a totally self-serving way. "Mine wasn't as bad as hers because..." Luckily, I'm not saying such ridiculous bullshit out loud, but that's where my thoughts go.


Me: BH, 50
Her: WW, 50
D-Day 12/27/2013 3-month PA with family friend

But also:
Me: WH, 50
Her: BW, 50
D-day: 12/27/2013 (about A that happened 14-15 years ago w/coworker)


Posts: 69 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Southern California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

I've read all these Madhatter posts in this thread and I still don't know how to avoid this, either.

Part of what can help is to focus solely on your affair at first, even if it's not that way in talks. In your own mind, truly own your WS hat. It might even help to act for a moment that you're solely the WS (long enough to own the hat and learn not to compare). When you have time to yourself, focus on your choices. Feel the shameful feelings. I think the "mine isn't as bad as my partner's" is a way we try to minimize the bad feelings from what we did. A very wise member here, UO, said that the deepest work is done when a person wears their WS hat (or something to that effect - she said it much better). I've noticed this is true for myself. When I post about my H's WS actions, I notice I tend to spin in circles. But when I examine my own choices, that's when the necessary changes tend to happen.

So much of the healing is based on helping your partner heal. But it can obscure the very real need for a wayward to change for themselves, not only for their partner. To be a healthier person.

Have you written a timeline on your own A? When I did mine, it was eye-opening and sickening. That's what I needed to own.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

Welcome datura - when did all of these disclosures come out? Are you both committed to working on each of your own issues (regardless of whether that leads to R or not) or is one person looking to rugsweep and the other is trying to figure out what direction you want to go?

Hiking - I *think* that the comparisons stop when a) you 'own' your own transgressions and b) you accept that you have no control over what your partner does/did. I think the comparisons are our defense mechanisms mixing in with our emotions about being cheated on.

For me, I don't really compare, for whatever reason, BUT I do find myself (as I am currently) sometimes really focusing on what my H is doing (as I believe...but don't have beyond-reasonable-doubt proof) that my H is still in an EA. They are still on the same team and they still chit-chat (he claims the 'love' stuff is done...he will not go NC. He's not transparent, he's not 'working' on anything (because people never change, he says)...but he comes home on time and doesn't go to her house so he considers that sufficient. So, what I'm working on is accepting that *this* is probably all I'll get from him and to actually decide for myself a course of action. I'm one of those great planners / not-so-great implementers...



ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
datura222
New Member
Member # 39766
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

Justashadow:

Dday for both of us was 2 days after Father's Day, when he failed the first polygraph. I found out about his ONS, then while talking about the why's, when's etc, I confessed to by own ONS.

We are in MC, I am in IC (I have PTSD over this for many reasons relating to my childhood and general history), and he is in IC (but only on a rotating schedule with our MC, he sees her alone 1 out of 3 appts-she is a CSAT, but he has not been diagnosed with SA). So, we are trying. He wants to R 100%...I do too, but I always get scared about his porn or that he would do it again...I know I will never, ever do that to anyone ever again...the agony of being a BS is unbelievably excruciating, and I don't want to be "that" kind of person ever again :(

He tends to rugsweep, whereas, I tend to want to talk ALL.DAY.LONG. about what has happened.
he is trying to become more emotionally available and is fully transparent in every way (as am I). I am also trying to stop raging at him (and have virtually succeeded) to get him to feel more safe opening up.

When I think about what he has done and I start to get all anxious, I try to redirect my thoughts to what I did....the whole hooker thing is so hard to digest on so many levels....but the baseline act is the same, and somehow I have to learn to accept that fact.


In R
Dday: Father's Day 2013
We are madhatters.
Husband took a polygraph due to the risky nature of his infidelity.
Polygraphs: 1 fail, disclosure, passed 2

Posts: 44 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Bay Area CA
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

Hey datura, you posted your story in wayward and I told you a lot there. Glad you're here.

Hiking I've told you my personal thought on the comparing. One thing I am having an issue with is this

Luckily, I'm not saying such ridiculous bullshit out loud, but that's where my thoughts go.

The fact that you know its ridiculous bullshit but you're allowing your mind to go there.

[This message edited by Unagie at 6:29 PM, January 9th (Thursday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, January 9th (Thursday)

F**K! I just got my proof. I am shaking like it's D-day again...but I'm going to go to yoga. The asshat is at a class right now anyways. F**************CK!!!!!!!!!


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:09 AM, January 10th (Friday)

JAS breathe, lean on us. When you're ready to share we will be here.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, January 10th (Friday)

Datura - There's so much that is good in your post and it's great that you both are actively trying. I don't AT ALL intend for that to sound like "why aren't you happy?" - it's totally not that. It's just good to acknowledge the good stuff when it happens. It also shows just how much muckety-muck there is to sift through when trying to get through this process (it's like, "I'm happy the sun is shining but I'm still wading through a pool of crap")

Major kudos to you for getting control of your rages. That's an issue (one of many) that I really struggle with. It was like kismet that my friend and I had a yoga class scheduled last week (we have started going on Saturdays but that had to change this week). If I had seen him without that I'm certain there would have been some fireworks when he got home.

One suggestion I read from another person was that they would have a little fishbowl and any time a question popped up, she'd write it down and put it in the fishbowl (or whatever other device). Then once a week they had a scheduled time for sitting down and talking. Her H would pull a question out of the fishbowl and answer it. And keep answering questions that way until the allotted time was up. It was a way for her to still be able to ask questions and yet keep those conversations to a mutually agreed upon time. I don't know if something like that would be helpful for you?


Unagie - thanks so much for the response! I read it in the middle of the night and it was nice to not feel so alone.

As I mentioned above, yoga was a total blessing last night. It allowed me to being able to pretend that I didn't know what I knew. Well, he knew I was sad but didn't know I was mad...so that's a good thing (for me...I need to work on controlling my emotions better). I had told myself that if I found one more instance of hard proof that something was going on then that would be it. What I need to do is move quickly and not tell him until my stuff is already out. If I confront him before that then the gaslights flicker, emotions flicker (in both of us) and I don't go...leaving myself to being both a)left to be a patsy and b) blamed for not leaving (even though he begged me not to leave). The past two years have really affected my work product and the past two weeks I've known something was up and was so focused on figuring out what it was that I've been absolutely useless at work.

So, I have to be brave enough to take control and be different than who I have been.



ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
hikingwithkoda
Member
Member # 41891
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, January 11th (Saturday)

Hiking I've told you my personal thought on the comparing. One thing I am having an issue with is this

Luckily, I'm not saying such ridiculous bullshit out loud, but that's where my thoughts go.

The fact that you know its ridiculous bullshit but you're allowing your mind to go there.

Yeah, sorry I haven't mastered the ability to control all my thoughts and feelings completely. That must be great to be able to do so. Until then, judgmental criticisms are helpful, though, so thanks.


Me: BH, 50
Her: WW, 50
D-Day 12/27/2013 3-month PA with family friend

But also:
Me: WH, 50
Her: BW, 50
D-day: 12/27/2013 (about A that happened 14-15 years ago w/coworker)


Posts: 69 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Southern California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, January 11th (Saturday)

JustAShadow, I am so sorry to hear. How are you doing today? What are your next steps?

hikingwithkoda,

I haven't mastered the ability to control all my thoughts and feelings completely.

It takes time. It's a habit you can build. Can you redirect your thoughts to something else when the comparisons begin?

I know for myself, I worried at first that owning my choices meant giving up my BS hat somehow (it didn't meant that, but I worried it did). Can you relate?

Have you written a timeline of your A?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, January 11th (Saturday)

Hi Silver - thanks for asking! I'm not a mess of emotions today but the emotions are certainly all over the board. Yoga this morning helped (I'm going to try to do some regular yoga sessions these next days/weeks? to try to help me keep from going off the rails.

I should know Monday if the movers can move my big stuff next week. I've got so much crap going on at work (mainly because I've not been able to function the last couple of weeks) that taking a day off to move sucks but I'm hoping that I can get out this week. In this moment I really just want to be free.

H knows something is up but I don't think he knows exactly what.

How are things with you Silver? Were you able to get some de-cluttering done?


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, January 11th (Saturday)

Had the talk...we are now separated.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, January 11th (Saturday)

I'm so sorry to hear that, JustAShadow. Was he even remotely remorseful? Did he deny what you found? What do you need right now? I'm imagining you're in a lot of pain right now. Do you feel your separation is permanent? Are you two taking time to see about R later, or heading directly for divorce? (((hugs)))


I hope Yoga helps.

So you're moving out of the home and not him? Are you moving into an apartment? Will you two have to manage anything about the marital home together?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Until then, judgmental criticisms are helpful, though, so thanks.

I wasn't being judgemental in any way shape or form. I was pointing out something I find to be bullshit. I'm not here to point a finger and feel better then others. I cheated and was cheated on, same as everyone else on this thread. I have no reason to judge anyone else but I don't censor what I say here I got tired of people pleasing around dday 1.5 years ago.

Let me clarify now why I highlighted that line. The fact is you know its ridiculous bullshit but your mind goes there immediately because that thought process is a safety net. It allows you to stop facing the hard shit for awhile. When your mind goes there do you immediately think "stop that's ridiculous bullshit" or do you allow the thought process to continue? Honestly you don't have to answer me either if you don't want to just something to think on.

[This message edited by Unagie at 4:49 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Justashadow I am so sorry. Please take care of yourself and know that you can still heal and be happy.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
MegM
Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Silver: I am so sorry that you feel you are not doing so well. I hope you are drawing on the kindness and strength you have offered so many here in SI. I know that impact your father has had has caused you pain for so long. It is an important goal that you have set yourself in letting him go. Expressing that goal and taking those first steps are incredibly brave. For us as women that desire for acceptance, love and pride from our fathers contributes so much to our sense of self and relationships with others. That is why it is so challenging for you.
Do I acknowledge his birthday or Father’s Day this year?
I think there is a bigger question to answer and it is the one posed in your goal … what does letting him go look like? What enables you to do that emotionally? The answer to that will guide you on the smaller day to day questions. It will guide your boundary setting with your father.
I am working from memory here regarding some of the issues in your family. So I am sorry if I am off the mark. I am sure you know that looking for validation from him his giving him power over your feelings again. It is the most hurtful thing that a parent can’t / won’t give us love and show us their acceptance. What can keep you safe from him misusing his power? What protects you and a through you your babies?
I have a longing for an extended family which is intact, happy and loving. My eldest sister is an unsafe person, she has put a wedge so high in our family that it is insurmountable . What keeps me safe from her, is to accept that the sister I want is not real. She never was. The person that she is not a member of my family. That is my boundary. We are not related. It meant potentially letting go of her children (one of whom I helped raise until he was 2 ½ ) It has meant a lot of pain for my parents. But it keeps me, and my children safe from her violence and manipulation. So for me it meant all that – changing my numbers, blocking on FB etc. I don’t pretend this is as challenging as it would if that person was a parent.
How are things at home with Mr Silver? Are you still working towards exit? I know that it is very challenging for you.

Datura & Hiking: I too struggled with the concept of ‘not comparing’ and I will offer a slightly different perspective to those above. For us – the ‘not comparing thing’ was driving us a bit bonkers. Thinking that it was chasing rabbits down holes we kept avoiding it and trying to be deliberate. During MC we realised that what was happening though was we were both superimposing our own stories onto one another. For example: My H – BlindFreddy began to rewrite my infedilty in his own mind and starting to re-traumatise himself with the idea that I would have been duplicitous in the way he was, run around and meeting the Affair Party without his knowledge, have secret phone conversations etc. None of that happened. I also underestimated the extent and breadth and length of his affair by assuming it wore the same face as mine. This enabled his half-truths and lies and prolonged full disclosure.
In the end we both needed to revisit our timlines and process a type of inventory. Fully understand how our affairs were different, their different MO. To some people details matter. ( I am one) Having the facts avoids unnecessary pain later.
So rather than confuse language. I don’t support ‘comparing’ for the purpose of justification and self-dillusion. But I do suggest inventories and clear communication if you have the same dynamic as us.

JustAshadow – I am very sorry for how hard things are just now. I strongly agree with the other posters here.


BS / fWS me 41 (@ DDay)
fWS / BS him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 ch(6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulders"

Posts: 669 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, January 13th (Monday)

Thank you everyone for the support - it is much appreciated!

He did break down and I'm certain they were real emotions but it's nothing I haven't seen periodically in these last two years and then the next day it's back to nothing changes. As to the "home" situation, we are apartment dwellers so that fortunately makes things easier.

I'm a little numb right now.


Last night I had a dream that we were prisoners and a group was told that they would be freed the next day. Both H and I were put in the to-be-freed group but I decided that I would go with the other group knowing that I had chosen the group that would probably be killed (but my intention was to try to get to a grenade and at least go down taking down my captors). Right before I woke up we were each in our different lines starting to move in our divergent paths...

A car load taken over to the new place yesterday and again this morning. Now to try to stoke the fire under my butt for work.

Silver - I'm sorry about the situation with your father. I think Meg has provided some good food for thought.



ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, January 13th (Monday)

The love bombing has commenced (H to JAS)...if only his nice words and dreams equated to nice actions...

:|


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Actions will always win out JAS. I send you strength, know that you are not alone. Take time to truly figure out what you want and need and go from there. Remember those wants and needs can change along the way. Take care.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
JustAShadow
Member
Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Much appreciated, Unagie.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, January 16th (Thursday)

One thing I really struggle with is the concept of comparisons. I know that comparing hurts in this situation only leads to MORE hurt, and roadblocks...but sometimes it seems like I can''t help it, and part of it is due to my own personal history, I think.

I hurt my wife about 3 years ago by flirting briefly with three women I knew via Facebook. I don''t know what to label it, but I don''t know that the label really matters. It was one-sided flirting the girls didn''t flirt back. My wife saw the messages in my history about a month or so after the conversations had taken place. About a year later, I discovered that my wife was having an EA with my friend/coworker. To be completely honest, I was not really all that hurt. I was more embarrassed and annoyed because it was someone we worked with and it made life complicated, but I didn''t view it as some great betrayal. I guess I always felt like people having ''crushes'' is just one those things that happens...to me, having the feelings is not the crime, but acting upon them is. So we established NC with the former friend and moved on. I don''t really consider it rugsweeping, because I honestly really didn''t care that much. I just kind of rolled my eyes the way you would at a silly middle-schooler. I don''t mean to be condescending, I just really didn''t view it as that big of a deal.

Here''s where it gets more complicated. The NC held for about a month and a half....and then it was broken, the EA was resumed, and then it became a PA until I discovered it in January of 2013. When I discovered THIS I was super pissed...because after her EA, we had the boundary talk. We talked at length about the reasons they had to have NC. So I guess the reasons I was pissed were twofold: 1) She had all the info about why she could never talk to him again, and chose to ignore it. 2) Despite my historical tendency to be a flirt (which I''m not excusing), I''ve always been really careful about not discussing things of a deeply personal nature with people of the opposite sex. Throughout my life, I''ve always been considered as a flirty, social person....but despite that, I''ve never been in a PA. In fact, if I got the impression that a woman was ever interested in me beyond being a friend, I made a conscious decision to avoid or limit contact...so it''s really hard for me to understand how my wife allowed it to become a PA, you know?

I don''t want to give the impression that I still think this kind of flirty behavior on my part is ok...at almost three years or so since my self-made shit hit the fan, I''ve done a whole lot of thinking, writing, reading, and some IC about it. I feel like I understand why I was the way I used to be...my ''whys'' and all that. So I guess my question is this: having been in my WW''s shoes up to a point, I can (and kind of did) empathize with her...up to a point. But I''m struggling with everything after NC was broken and it went underground, because I''ve always been careful to avoid that aspect, you know?


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:37 AM, January 17th (Friday)

Despite my historical tendency to be a flirt (which I'm not excusing), I've always been really careful about not discussing things of a deeply personal nature with people of the opposite sex. Throughout my life, I've always been considered as a flirty, social person....but despite that, I've never been in a PA. In fact, if I got the impression that a woman was ever interested in me beyond being a friend, I made a conscious decision to avoid or limit contact...so it's really hard for me to understand how my wife allowed it to become a PA, you know?

If you don't mind my asking… Why in the past would you draw a boundary at discussing personal things, no PA, etc? What did you say to yourself to make it OK to flirt with other women? What were you getting from flirting? When you flirted, did you hide it from your wife at the time, or did you think it wasn't a big deal and then felt surprised when she found the messages and was hurt? Did you ever flirt in front of her?

Your wife will need to examine her own boundaries. How did her EA with the OM begin? Was it with flirting? A crush that they acted on? Where did she first cross her boundaries? And by the time it was an EA, did PA seem like the next step, since the EA boundary had already been crossed?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:04 AM, January 17th (Friday)

I have a question, and I think here is the right place to ask.

For anyone here who is dealing with a spouse who isn't "doing the work", for anyone here who has done the 180 - are you afraid of what happens when you disconnect from your spouse?

I am. I have detached from him so much since summer 2012. That scares me. What if I am not mindful enough of my boundaries? I am alone. Mothering alone, changing alone, trying to ask for help from him (and friends and family and therapy and a hoarding support group) and not getting it. How do I stick with the loneliness? It's not good to try to escape painful feelings. I don't just mean escape as in affair - I mean escape into anything that dilutes reality.

How do you avoid the strong desire to escape pain? How do you accept all the pain, especially if that pain comes from being alone? How do you deal with all the uncertainties that come from loneliness? For me, it's about the voices in my head and the growing paranoia. Don't know how to manage that. I reach out to Mr. Silver, and he isn't there. Need to keep it together somehow. Writing fiction, drinking Bailey's, excessive video games, hanging out too much with friends when I'm sick, finding some kind of imaginary outlet starts to look more and more appealing, and they don't appear to be healthy outlets because I don't know how to enjoy them in moderation. How do I stay grounded?

I'm at a low point right now. I don't want to screw up.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JustAShadow
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Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, January 17th (Friday)

FacePunched - you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and good boundaries in place for yourself.

I've always thought that the "don't compare" statement is just a shorthand way to say, 'own your own actions and don't use the comparison/blame-game as a defense mechanism for the purposes of shirking responsibility for your own actions.'

It appears as though you have taken ownership that something you did hurt your wife and have put a lot of effort into shoring up your boundary walls. So, if you are feeling bad that you are 'comparing'...IMO you aren't actually comparing (at least not in the same sense that I get when I hear or say 'don't compare') so free yourself of that burden (if you felt it was a burden of sorts).

I think you can leave the last sentence as just this:

But I'm struggling with everything after NC was broken and it went underground.

That's a wholly valid thing to be struggling with, in and of itself.

What effort has your W put in over the last year?


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
JustAShadow
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Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, January 17th (Friday)

((((silver))))

You mentioned writing fiction...I think that might be a healthy outlet for you - if you enjoy it. On the non-fiction side, are you a person who keeps a journal?

Maybe you want to start writing one thing a day that made you proud (of yourself) or happy (even if it was just a happy moment). It sounds like you and me are alike in that (I'm guessing) feeling anything positive about yourself is a struggle. It may be that you start out struggling to come up with one thing...but maybe in a week or month or two you'll find that you are finding more than one thing.

It could be something as simple (and seemingly inconsequential) as "I'm proud of myself for taking a shower today".

I don't mean to sound as if I know where you are "at" at the moment but I, personally, have had times where, if I had been trying to find something 'good' in a day, I may have only come up with that. It's just a way to remind yourself that the sun did come out, even if it was just for a moment.


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
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Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, January 17th (Friday)

If you don't mind my asking…
Not at all. That's why I'm here.
Why in the past would you draw a boundary at discussing personal things, no PA, etc? What did you say to yourself to make it OK to flirt with other women?
There was a part of me that didn't see the harm in casual flirting...I had seen other guys do it who seemed happily married and (to my knowledge) had never cheated. My dad was always a very casual flirt, and (again, to my knowledge) had never cheated on my mom, was always effusive in praise of her, and never had a bad word to say about her. As far as discussing personal things? Part of it was modeling from my dad, I think, part of it was my experience seeing other people have problems in their relationships that way. Like I stated above, I knew lots of guys who casually flirted but didn't 'cheat'...but all the guys and girls I knew who ended up cheating were the ones who shared personal info with others of the opposite sex, and I never wanted to "be one of THOSE people." On some level I felt like one way (being flirtatious) was just something harmless that normal adults did, while the other way (sharing personal information) built a kind of intimacy that could be dangerous.
What were you getting from flirting?
I think that I was just looking for ego kibbles, mostly. I've always had chronic low self-esteem, and on the few occasions in earlier relationships where I did get flirted back with, it probably (temporarily) shored up my self-esteem. Also, when I was younger, I was always jealous of guys that were easygoing when it came to interactions with the opposite sex, and when I developed a little more into my skin later on, and got (some) confidence to flirt it was like proving something to myself in some fucked up way, like, "See? Those guys weren't better than you."
When you flirted, did you hide it from your wife at the time, or did you think it wasn't a big deal and then felt surprised when she found the messages and was hurt? Did you ever flirt in front of her?
So, this was an issue of contention: meaning, my wife categorized every interaction I had with the opposite sex as 'flirting'. So (and this is not an exaggeration) if we went to Target together, for example, and the clerk asked me how my day was going, and I answered and returned the question, my wife thought it was flirting. If I asked the Walgreens clerk what they thought about the weather, it was flirting. It would be conversations about normal, everyday stuff, just the sorts of things two humans talk about, and she thought it was flirting. We never really came to agreement on it, and I offered us to go to MC to resolve the issue, but she wan't interested. Now that being said, the FB stuff was for sure flirting. I don't think I was shocked that she was hurt, but I think I was surprised HOW hurt she was.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, January 17th (Friday)

So, this was an issue of contention: meaning, my wife categorized every interaction I had with the opposite sex as 'flirting'. So (and this is not an exaggeration) if we went to Target together, for example, and the clerk asked me how my day was going, and I answered and returned the question, my wife thought it was flirting. If I asked the Walgreens clerk what they thought about the weather, it was flirting. It would be conversations about normal, everyday stuff, just the sorts of things two humans talk about, and she thought it was flirting.

So this is interesting. Where did her reaction come from? Was it hypersensitivity on her part, based on experiences in past relationships? Or had she already seen you flirting and felt upset and became extra sensitive after? Or insecurities of her own? Something to explore.

Also, was the contention a two-parter? Part one is what constituted flirting to each of you was different, and part two is that you found flirting harmless and she didn't?

I had similar issues with my H early in our relationship. Once I detached from him, it was easier to see the areas where it wasn't flirting and I'd been overreacting, and the areas where I was accurate and it was. It wasn't a matter of being right or not, it was a matter of understanding where our boundaries and therefore comfort levels differed. It made understanding the reality of our situation different. In our case, I realized he did not wish to change, he simply wished to avoid consequences (now he's claiming to be different, but his actions are inconsistent). So if I stick with him, I'd better get used to his boundaries being in a different place than mine.

I meant to say, it is good to see you here questioning these things and exploring them. Welcome to the MH thread!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, January 17th (Friday)

You mentioned writing fiction...I think that might be a healthy outlet for you - if you enjoy it. On the non-fiction side, are you a person who keeps a journal?

Fiction is a good outlet. I feel tremendously guilty for writing it though… I feel I should be playing with my son instead. I pretty much raise him by myself, even when my husband is in the same room. I feel like a bad mother because we've been having some struggles recently, with potty training, weaning, and his tantrums/anxiety. No free time. I used to keep a journal, then it turned into a page here or there writing whatever the voices were bothering me about. I sort of kept one here for a while.

Maybe you want to start writing one thing a day that made you proud (of yourself) or happy (even if it was just a happy moment). It sounds like you and me are alike in that (I'm guessing) feeling anything positive about yourself is a struggle.

So true! It feels easier sometimes to think of the areas that need improvement. It feels dangerous, leaving myself open for attack, to let myself feel that everything is as it should be for even a minute. It's like - think everything's fine, then something will come along and make me sorry for relaxing.

How are you doing? How is your week going? Do you keep a journal? Is it helping you - did you move into the new place? Any remorse from your H?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JustAShadow
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Member # 38370
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, January 17th (Friday)

Silver - maybe when your little one takes a nap or after he goes to bed you can give yourself 20 - 30 minutes to write something. Consistency is good for all of us (not just the little ones!).

I don't journal - I have no doubt that it could be beneficial but I just have a real block with it. Instead, I use other people's words (and music) and doing yoga helps get me out of my head for a bit. I'm not super into it even though I like it (but there's another example of my commitment issues cropping up!) but when I do it - even if it's a 10 minute version from YouTube it somehow does help me center myself for a little while.

I'm slowly moving in - a carload every day. H talks a sweet game but has only talked about doing things that are easy/dreamy (we could travel to X or move to a nice new apt together). But, for some reason, I'm just kind of disassociated this week. I'm not sleeping well and not focusing at work but I'm also not tracking H and not really concerned about what he is doing at any given time. He's been working until very late this week (2nd job) so I'm just doing what I'm doing and letting sleeping dogs lie during the week. I may take him to the apt this weekend so that he can be reminded that *this* is really in place. There is nothing that he is doing that is showing actual remorse.

[This message edited by JustAShadow at 2:06 PM, January 17th (Friday)]


ME: 41 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 1997, 2003
Him: 35 - Madhatter, 2 PAs, 2004, 3/2012 - 3/2014
Status: Living Apart

Posts: 200 | Registered: Feb 2013
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Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, January 18th (Saturday)

So this is interesting. Where did her reaction come from? Was it hypersensitivity on her part, based on experiences in past relationships? Or had she already seen you flirting and felt upset and became extra sensitive after? Or insecurities of her own? Something to explore. Also, was the contention a two-parter? Part one is what constituted flirting to each of you was different, and part two is that you found flirting harmless and she didn't?
So, the long answer is that my wife has a limitless need for appearance-based validation. Her ‘bucket’ is never full. She was always of the opinion that I didn’t compliment her enough, specifically on how beautiful she looked. It’s a half-truth, in my opinion. I complimented her a TON, but usually on things that were not related to her looks. I was more likely to compliment her on being a hard worker, or a good mother, or a good wife, or being super smart. That’s not to say that I NEVER complimented her on her looks, but there’s a wide gulf between how often that she says I did (or didn’t) do it, and how often I believe that I did. It’s interesting, because after reading 5LL one of the realizations I had was that we were both ‘speaking’ the language that we wanted to receive. My wife used to tell me I was handsome all the time. I always appreciated it, but it didn’t really “move the needle” as far as temporarily boosting my self-esteem. (Which is NOT her responsibility; I’m just relaying how different love languages affected us differently). I would’ve felt a lot more validated if she had told people how proud of me she was, or told me I was a good father and husband. I gave her my ‘language’: being proud and vocal about her accomplishments, and she gave me hers: compliments on physical appearance.

As far as why she was ‘hyper-sensitive’ pre-FaceBook flirting? I honestly think it was a little bit of projection…my wife has always had a tendency in her past relationships to do some things that are related to one-another: She had a tendency to develop romantic feelings for people that were close to her and were nice to her; i.e. friends. She’s a gorgeous woman, and many guys are not respectful of relationships if they think they have a shot with a pretty girl…so many times she had one plane on the tarmac before the other one had landed, to turn a phrase. She always had options, and she always left herself JUST available enough for her male friends to think they might have a chance. Talking it over with her, it seems like many of her relationships started as EAs with (supposedly) platonic male friends, and so for her she sees the progression as Friendship (and normal, surface level chatting)->blurring of the lines (letting boundaries and walls slip with more emotionally intimate talk)->full-blown EA->leaving her relationship for the next one. For her, that’s how it has ALWAYS progressed; ipso facto, that’s how it must always progress for everybody. To be fair, that IS how a great many affairs progress as evidenced by this site, so I can’t say she’s really wrong, just that it hasn’t been MY personal history. Also, I found out later that she was fishing for attention from one of her ex boyfriends even prior to my FB stuff, so I think like many waywards, there is a tendency to get all suspicious when your own shady activity is occurring.
She has a really hard time expressing emotions; like, impossible. It’s one of the main reasons our MC told us we had to wait until she did some serious IC to continue in MC…she was unable to put words to even the most basic feelings. I think that she’s one of those people that relies on other sources to feel her feelings for her….other people, TV shows, music. When someone likes her, she likes them.
Since I don’t want this post to be about my wife, and since her dealing with her issues is her own problem, let me speak on my own.
There is a very good chance that I have ADD. There’s a genetic component there, my son has it (diagnosed), and my grandfather, my father, and myself all exhibit the traits associated with it, both now and in childhood. Well, one of the effects of growing up with that is that you constantly are told (over and over), “You’re super smart, you just don’t apply yourself.” Or “You’re better than this grade, if you’d try harder.” You get told, ad nauseam, that you’d be the best.person.evah. if you could just get out of your own way, and you start to internalize a lot of self-hate, self-criticism, and low self-esteem. I know for me, I would mentally murder myself for failure. You know how some people blame others for their problems? I was the exact opposite. I almost NEVER blamed others. I blamed myself for every problem. Every shitty situation I was in was my fault because I didn’t work hard enough to NOT be in that situation in the first place. That coin has two sides, thought.

That trait has worked negatively against me in that I always want people to tell me how good of a job I’m doing, or how good of a person I am, or how nice I am. In that area, my bucket is never full. That trait has worked positively for me in my professional life, because people learn that you hold yourself accountable first and foremost. I’ve always had a good relationship with all of my superiors at work, because I’m always willing to step up and say, “You know what? My fault.” I mean, even when the shit with the FB flirting went down, I never once blame-shifted my wife. She gave me the opportunity to, she even asked me, “Is this my fault, is there something I could be doing better to make you happy?” and I told her flat-out, “No. This is on me, there is something wrong with me.” I think that’s where another of the core affair-related resentments resides, because on DDAY1, when I found out she was having an EA with my friend, she totally blame-shifted me, and due to my nature I totally bought into it. I believed her that I pushed her away, wasn’t affection enough, etc., because it fed into my internal narrative of “It’s ALWAYS your fault, FP”. So after DDAY1, I got all super-husband and tried to love her back into the marriage because she gave me the ol’ ILYBINILWY. I made concrete changes to how I interacted with women, I tried to be more attentive and helpful. I bought her gifts, and flowers. She told me herself that things were better….and then DDAY2 in January of 2013 blew everything out of the water, because it showed me that even if I HAD been doing all that stuff, it wouldn’t have probably mattered.

I had similar issues with my H early in our relationship. Once I detached from him, it was easier to see the areas where it wasn't flirting and I'd been overreacting, and the areas where I was accurate and it was. It wasn't a matter of being right or not, it was a matter of understanding where our boundaries and therefore comfort levels differed. It made understanding the reality of our situation different. In our case, I realized he did not wish to change, he simply wished to avoid consequences (now he's claiming to be different, but his actions are inconsistent). So if I stick with him, I'd better get used to his boundaries being in a different place than mine.
For myself, it came down to a situation of “Ok, would I rather be happy or right?” I have made a concerted effort to curtail my interactions with the women I know to a level that my wife is comfortable with.
I meant to say, it is good to see you here questioning these things and exploring them. Welcome to the MH thread!
Thanks for having me! It’s taken me a while of really wearing my BS hat and getting some of the angries out to get to a point where I feel comfortable being in this thread…before that I worked it out in IC, reading, pondering, etc.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
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Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, January 18th (Saturday)

It’s taken me a while of really wearing my BS hat and getting some of the angries out to get to a point where I feel comfortable being in this thread…before that I worked it out in IC, reading, pondering, etc.

I truly could have written this sentence word for word, FP. Good to have you here, man!


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Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, January 24th (Friday)

Since FP brought it up.

JustAShadow:
I've always thought that the "don't compare" statement is just a shorthand way to say, 'own your own actions and don't use the comparison/blame-game as a defense mechanism for the purposes of shirking responsibility for your own actions.'

Thanks for throwing that out there. I think I've only posted in MadHatter once or twice because I do compare. And the mantra here is to not compare.

I still have a hard time using the word EA, by definition of it based on what is usually talked about on this site.....the need for constant contact, imagining a future with AP, seeing the AP as flawless or hiding/lying about the relationship to your spouse. None of that happened from my side. But there was something definitely not right, which included awful boundaries, and unhealthy interest and I didn't care about my husband's feelings, so in those ways it was an EA. I'd never heard of an EA prior to SI. I had a sense of my own line of right or wrong to not cross, but the line shouldn't have been as far in as it was.

To add to the comparison thing, my husband doesn't want call it an EA because HE also compares it to what he did. Plus, he didn't want to pile the label of WS on me because I was dealing with so much stuff already. Like FP said, I had to get some angries out before diving into anything else.

It's usually instinct for me to blame myself first. I knew that my actions were not based on anything my husband did or didn't do specifically. I didn't act the way I did because I felt neglected (although I did feel neglected), it's just the way I'd always acted. I've worked on things that lead to it all, off of SI. The flirty banter, the rescuer/KISA qualities, the mixing of love and pity. Giving a shit about my husband's feelings after he had an affair and lied to me about it took more time.

It also wasn't easy to SEE his hurt feelings (as WS say they needed to see their BS pain to absorb that) because at that time my husband was very bothered by this 'friendship' but yet he said nothing (other than some sarcastic comments, which had become his tone for just about everything, so I ignored it). That was part of the problem, I didn't know he was hurt by it because he didn't express his feelings. He rarely did. He felt what would be the point -- and honestly there wouldn't have been a point because I would have minimized and disrespected his feelings. I had a 'you can't tell me what to do sort of attitude'. I've now learned my husband was always the jealous type. In 20 years I didn't know that because not once did he express how he was feeling until after dday.

The things I got hung up on comparing were -- when I got smacked in the face with reality that this was questioned/headed somewhere I wasn't going to go, I instinctively said 'NO, that would be wrong. I'm married.' There were no thoughts of I deserve this or no one would know. I would know and that's all that mattered. And I couldn't lie about it. I immediately went to my husband and said 'AP said this -- can you believe that?' Whoa, what did I do? Dodged a bullet there.' Maybe subconsciously in some ways I was hoping for a reaction from my husband. A sign that he cared, but he didn't give it. But mostly I was an open book, I didn't hide things. I assumed (wrongly) that my husband was the same way. I didn't know he lived his life in secret and when he came to the same point (after me), he had no moral issue with having an affair and got off on the secrecy. That was the fun part. I'll never really understand that and I was very angry and resentful when I compared the two. I got to slope and went one way and he chose to go the other.

Not sure why I'm wrote all that (and sorry it's so long) other than I relate to what FacePunched said.

FP:
She has a really hard time expressing emotions; like, impossible. It’s one of the main reasons our MC told us we had to wait until she did some serious IC to continue in MC…she was unable to put words to even the most basic feelings.

I'm the same way. We attended Retrouvaille and you have to express feelings and I had a panic attack when I found that out because it was a completely foreign concept. Identifying feelings...it still makes me cringe a little. It takes practice.

you constantly are told (over and over), “You’re super smart, you just don’t apply yourself.” Or “You’re better than this grade, if you’d try harder.”

Yep, me too. I didn't link it to ADD, just my stubborn/obstinate FTW attitude. My husband and I had the same comments on our report cards -- that should have been a sign.

[This message edited by DixieD at 9:44 AM, January 24th (Friday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, January 24th (Friday)

I think like many waywards, there is a tendency to get all suspicious when your own shady activity is occurring.

Right on the money here! Great post FP! TY!


***ooops, forgot quotes

[This message edited by Trying2Survive1 at 11:17 PM, January 24th (Friday)]


Madhatters, M 33 yrs
FWW/BS 58 BS/FWH 57
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 131 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
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Default  Posted: 11:34 PM, January 24th (Friday)

I think one of the reasons I do compare is that my wife and I both stopped at nearly the exact same spot on the slippery slope, and then we both made different decisions after that initial stop. I shut down my Facebook, and I never looked back, and I went NC with all 3 women I flirted with. I did some shitty wayward stuff, like getting mad when she brought it up out of nowhere, but I never said it was her fault, EVER. She, on the other hand, went NC for all of a month and a half before breaking NC to 'wish him a happy birthday', and then breaking it again a month and a half after that and re-establishing regular contact with OM, which led to the PA.

Oh, and she blamed me for the whole thing, initially.

So, I guess you cannot compare the pain, because that is relative to the person who's experiencing it....meaning, one person's 2 is another's 10, and so on. What I compare more often than not is the response to being caught and the aftermath. Speaking of comparing and not comparing, I have a post in General that I think many MH might be able to relate to.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=520345

[This message edited by FacePunched at 11:36 PM, January 24th (Friday)]


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, January 25th (Saturday)

Something that came to my mind right now… Just need a place to talk about it.

I have been a madhatter twice over. This post is about the first time.

In my first situation, there was a coworker. He was single, I was single, and we began hooking up in a FWB kind of way. Except that he was very abusive. I was in over my head on some other issues, where I felt I earned abuse, and so stuck with it. In the beginning, he said that we were to tell each other if we'd found someone else. He began pursuing his friend's girlfriend, but I didn't find out about it for months. During a break I had a ONS. Because we got back into our arrangement later and I didn't tell him, I felt like this was the first time cheating, even though we technically were not together at this point (and, unbeknownst to me, he was actively pursuing the friend's girlfriend). After several more months together, and more abuse, and finding out that he was pursuing this other girl, even taking my car in order to drive her around and who knows what else, I made a second terrible decision. At 3:30AM one morning, he called me and threatened me into picking him up downtown. Once I was there, he said he wanted me out of my own car so he could drive the friend's girlfriend around and "talk" to her, while I stayed on the street downtown at 4AM and he returned "whenever". I tricked him into getting out of the car, drove away, and he called to say "so I guess this means we're over?" and hung up before I could respond. I had a ONS that night. For the longest time, I tried to tell myself I wasn't a cheater because of what he technically said. A couple of years ago I finally owned that in fact, I am a cheater, because I went against my morals and values and didn't tell him honestly what I was doing. If I didn't do anything wrong, then why is this intense guilt here, you know?

But the weird thing is this: I own that I'm a cheater. I am. But I feel as though I shouldn't have been hurt or upset that he was pursuing this other girl (except for the part about him pursuing another guy's girl, in other words, his OM status). I mean, I never got confirmation that they slept together (though there was a lot of evidence that they did something), and we weren't in a *real* relationship anyway, right? So how could I have felt at all betrayed by him, shouldn't I have been cheering him on that he got his game on?

And yet, I feel like the dirty slut-whore who cheated, since I actually had physical contact with the OMs, and since I didn't outright tell ex-FWB about the encounters (I told him about the first one much later, though I was not straightforward about it, and all he said was that I needed to use condoms). I feel like I was wayward but not betrayed. Like I should be hated. I should always be a lesser person for what I did. ETA: Like I have no right to expect fidelity from anyone, or am even deserving of a relationship, because I myself was not faithful.

I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe that's the reality. And that's not even getting into the madhatter situation with my husband and all the complicated feelings around that. That's another post.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 4:27 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Trying2Survive1
Member
Member # 40022
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, January 25th (Saturday)

Like I have no right to expect fidelity from anyone, or am even deserving of a relationship, because I myself was not faithful.

awwwww Silver, the past does not always predict the future. IMHO being faithful is a choice I can make for the future and I hope that my H will make the same choice. Through years of IC I have learned that my choice to be unfaithful was an unhealthy coping skill as result of many factors(FOO, Molestation, abandonment, etc.)

Yes, I WAS an unfaithful GF, then Wife before, but I CAN choose to move past that and strive toward the healthy, honest relationship that I feel I deserve.

[This message edited by Trying2Survive1 at 5:44 PM, January 25th (Saturday)]


Madhatters, M 33 yrs
FWW/BS 58 BS/FWH 57
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 131 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 12:42 AM, January 26th (Sunday)

Newest member of the "club" here......

I cheated almost 2 years ago. PA with a co worker of his. Dday was alittle over a year ago. I had a short period of time where I did not make changes needed but around a month after Dday I changed everything. Showing remorse and empathy. Went NC and stayed NC. I have been working hard at showing my I've and commitment and he has said he was trying to work on it too. We were finally in R.

He cheated. For almost the entire year I thought we were in R he was talking to girls on an app called KIK. He would download it when he was at work or I was at work and delete it before he came home or I got home. Naked pictures....sexting....and of course one of them he "has feelings for" I had a feeling last night and checked his phone. Spent over an hour going through and couldn't find anything. And then I went into the App Store, not sure what I was looking for and noticed KIK was the last thing he'd searched. So I downloaded it, and his password was MY name....and sure enough there were the convo's.....

I'm heart broken. He tried to argue with me that it wasn't an A and wasn't as bad as what I did to him. I told him an A is an A no matter what. I made him send NC messages to them (as they are all women from other states, 2 of which he doesn't even know their real names) and block them on the app. I now have the app downloaded on my phone and signed into his name so of he were to get back on there and message them o would get it as well.

I have cried, thrown up, screamed, been to that scarily cm point, and now am just hurt and confused. I love him. And I've been working so hard this past year. It's so hard for me to understand how he could be preaching about me earning his trust back from my A and at the same time having one of his own.


Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
Trying2Survive1
Member
Member # 40022
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, January 26th (Sunday)

I'm sorry you are here Hisbunnyonly. I would be devastated as well.


Madhatters, M 33 yrs
FWW/BS 58 BS/FWH 57
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 131 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, January 30th (Thursday)

This is my first post here, I know BW used to post in here, but she has stopped coming to Si, and it's taken me a while to get in touch with my MH status.

What brought it all up was I found a picture of BW and I during the time of her affair. At the time she asked me to grow a goatee and mustache, which I found out sometime in the last two years, was because her AP had one.

I knew the picture was somewhere, and it finally turned up. I remember the night very well. We were out to dinner with some people, I thought we were having a great time, but when I look at her eyes in the picture, I can only image what was going through her mind. We are S so I cannot ask her. I wanted to give her the pictures, so she could get rid of them. A way to hurt her a little, but then i thought, why...didn't i already hurt enough? why extend the pain. We are mostly NC, so all it will do in add drama to the S. So they sit here on my counter. I am not ready to throw them out, just letting them remind me of what was.

Anyway, it brings everything back up. I struggle, because as soon as I think about it, i think of everything I did to her, and compare the As, and think what she did was no where nearly as bad as what i did, so my guilt makes me feel like i dont deserver to be hurt.

Then i think, she cheated first, didnt tell me until i was busted in my first A, so for those two years or so she hid it and lied to me.

Then i wind up feeling like a chump. I was happy back then, unhealthy in my own ways, but I thought we were happy. then the guilt comes back in, lather, rinse, repeat.

I don't speak to anyone about it because while I have discussed my As with friends and family, i have never discussed hers. I guess I will bring it up in IC.

I dont really have a point i guess. Just thought sharing will ease the load a little bit, plus some of the 'free pass' threads in WW were bringing this up even more lately.

thanks for reading.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, February 2nd (Sunday)

Welcome Hisbunny,

How are you doing today? Has your H given you transparency? What are your next steps? I'm so sorry. This must be a devastating time for you. Is he at all remorseful? Was this a dealbreaker for you? Are you feeling in limbo?

Hi badchoice,

It sounds like you're struggling with your feelings as a BS. You feel that you shouldn't feel hurt because when you compare the A's you feel yours is worse. But the lies hurt you too, didn't they? Do you journal? Sometimes it might help to work through your feelings. I think it's normal to feel mixed up inside. I don't think being a MH is an EITHER/OR, but rather AND/AND. Both things are true. Doesn't make it any easier, but it means one hat doesn't have to discount the other.

Thank you Trying2Survive1. I know that what you're saying is true. As people we all grow, we all make bad decisions, and we grow and change and try to do better. I just wonder sometimes if this unhealthiness will always be here in me, no matter how much I try to change it. Seems like it takes a lot of courage to accept a partner's imperfections as well as the rest of them. And being a cheater isn't minor. I consider it a lifelong goal to never cheat again nor help another person cheat. Never betray any more morals than I already have. Seems like a fair goal.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 6:15 PM, February 10th (Monday)

Figured id shake the tree, and see who falls out...

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, February 10th (Monday)

Is anyone else here just existing ?
The plane of lethal flatness for sure...

Cant even get excited for kids.
They have asked...

Ona lighter note, i bought a volvo.
I roll...for u lovers of dead language.

It has a soul. Deus ex machina, baby...


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 2:31 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Ok, so, i will shake the tree a little harder...

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Revenge  Posted: 2:44 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I noticed something bout my posts,,,
I do a lot of this,,,
And a lot ot this... ... ... ... ,,, ,,, ,,,
Looks like morse code,,, get me off this cray zee train,,,
Sorry just venting...
Any way, NC with stbxw, d going along quickly, shes not asking for any support.
That will change im sure.
Ive read alot here last few days. Lots of hurt.
(((All madhatterz)))


Any excuse to use my favorite barfing yellow circle...


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:21 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

So the divorce is moving along, EH? That's good. Hope it goes smoothly for you all. How are the kids doing? They're probably needing lots of extra support right now. Is your W still going through the case with the possession charges etc?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:29 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Silver, yep, d going along. Oddly smooth, considering.
As far as criminal charges, its her ap who has charges,
Hes out o picture now, transferred to prison in texas.
He will not be a factor in anything anymore.
Other than letters.
Let her have the letters.
My kids r here with me, i dont even care bout her now.
Sad


Silver, hows your situation?


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

My situation is the best it can be right now. Mr Silver met more of his family this week, and that was a big step. He needs to know he's not alone anymore and that he can finally go home to people who unconditionally support him. So it feels like I'm doing my job by helping him reconnect with them. I felt sad most of the time we were there, because if/when he cheats again and finds the love of his life, his family will be happy that they get to form memories with the new girl - actually see Mr Silver get married, get another girl pregnant, etc, play the role of proud family - and it will hurt when they throw me away. These could just be paranoid thoughts but because he is unremorseful, I feel fear a lot of the time and wonder when it will finally happen, and that makes it hard to live in the present. So not dwelling on it has become my challenge. I'm taking care of my son and I. Mr Silver is trying to be thoughtful and that's very sweet. But since he's unremorseful and still has good memories of the OWs… I think he loves me now because he's successful right now, in school and in finding his family again, and he loves me for the support I'm giving him (not because he's particularly attracted to me). So trying to view myself as his best friend and supporter. I'll feel peace if I care about him and help him, because it's who I was before I became unhealthy, I was the person who looked out for people just because. That feels better than trying to strive to be his lover, when he rejected that part of me so many times. For the longest time, I wasn't even his second choice. Hard to believe I'm his #1 now. I just want him to be happy.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

The other unfortunate major sticking point on my situation is that I'm the only adult in this relationship. He flat out is not being a father to our son, or rather not being a coparent with me. He'll make food for him sometimes, which is great - but discipline, playing, watching him, putting him to bed, actually spooning the food into his mouth, bathing him, potty training him, even helping me fill out the damn application for our son to go to preschool (which I'm stressing over right now and asked for help) - his answer is "I can't." And that sucks. Time to get my big girl boots on and be a responsible individual without him, I guess.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:31 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Last post, silver, was...unacceptable.
Not to sound harsh, but where the hell does he get this idea that he does not need to engage his family. ???
Ive not read the back story, i just got home.from work, i will read the back story from u and see if i have anything in my rotten madhatter brain that helps,,,
Back soon,,,

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:35 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Sorry, to clarify, i mean as family, you and your child.
For heavens sake, man, potty train the boy!!!
Ill b bac...

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Silver,


I cant.

He says, i cant.

Pretty much says alot.
Dont it?

Ive heard this too.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:19 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)

Yeah… When he says he can't… That's the part that scares me. He can be so sweet to me sometimes, and others… I know he loves our son dearly, but… Anything to do with caretaking our son, and I'm on my own. And that scares me, not only because I need help, but more importantly because my son needs a healthy relationship with him. So it's very upsetting. I need to do whatever is in the best interests of my son.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)

On a good note, though… a long time ago, I posted here that my H was using weed and had claimed he would stop smoking "next year after his birthday". He stuck to his word, and I am surprised and proud of him. He's been clean for 11 days. He's never done this before and has taken steps to remove all his former drug paraphernalia from the home. There is nothing left. So I truly think he will be much healthier from now on. He does not want to go back. Next step: eventually he will probably try to quit smoking cigarettes. So… I want to give him that credit. He is doing the work for his health: finishing school, meeting his family, quitting pot. I'm very proud of him.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:12 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)

WOW.
Quitting pot. Not easy at all. Was he a long time smoker?
I, being in denver, home of all thats 420, smoked from 14, thru
37 years old. My "weapon" of choice...
My wife put up with that dream and desire killler for far too long.
At this point, theres no excuse. Get in gear and engage your child, man. This boy will need to have a man to show him how to be a man. NO ONE in my messed up fam ever showed me, and my choices sucked for so long because of that.
In my teens, no one even bothered to ask where i was going.
Your husband will need to step up. Now.


Side hug for stranger....
(((Silver
Bear hug for da hubby
(((((Silvers hubby)))))


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:24 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)

People at my NA meeting see me coming with a bear hug, and are not sure wat to do, im not a small guy. Theres no resistance. HHa.
Silver, with this info, give at least a month for him to level out the chemical imbalances.
I have a feeling he might turn round on this when the thc works its way out of his system.
Tell him a 6,4 225 pd guy in denver is comin at him with a thirty day chip and a hug.

All joking aside, time will change this.
One odd thing bout pot, after quitting as a long time user, he will have weird,almosg flashback type effects of still feeling super stoned even when not.
There is a real fog that lifts, it will be noticable to you..
All prayers and hopees for u two..


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

Thank you EH. I will definitely try to give him the strongest support and encouragement to stick it out for the first month, and see how much better things get afterward. In the first days he was so depressed. He's a happy guy and he just couldn't smile those first days. Since seeing his family (2 siblings and a cousin, and their spouses and kids), he's definitely had a mood boost but still lots of uncertainties. What you said about not having a family to show you how to be healthy - same with him. He was put in the foster care system when he was five and bounced around from family to family until he was 20 (and the very last family was the one who got him hooked on pot, since they smoked), at which point he became homeless for several years. Never had any positive role models at all. His sister only found him recently, and he's 32 now. He's the only one of his family who had to go through the system: everyone else was adopted right away and kept the same consistent loving family growing up and even now. I can't even imagine how painful that must be for him. In a way, he thinks of me and my family as another adoptive family, except that he married me. I've been trying to show him how to take care of our son. It's when he says he "doesn't feel like it" that I get frustrated. A person has to try. I get scared about my child-raising skills too, considering some of the scary things my family put me through (my mother's heroin addiction, physical abuse, sexual abuse by a couple of family members, abandonment - among other things). But his complete and utter lack of role models… I get why he's apprehensive. He didn't have anyone.

Thank you so much for your encouragement EH. It helps to hear from someone who was on the other side and made it. Definitely going to give him extra strength this month.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:59 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

Silver, the "i dont feel like it" sounds like the thc talkin.
Just my observation. Been there, yuck.
The family issues you both face sadden me to hear.
Does your husband talk at all bout counseling, help of any kind,? I really dont like na myself, but in the dark vortex of addiction, its ok. It does help. Do you talk to him bout whats goin on inside him with regards to his quitting recently?

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

He's been in therapy for several years, since before I met him - but he's been through so much of the system that he doesn't trust his therapists. They're assigned to him based on his disabilities, so he thinks they're looking for any excuse to put him in program or jail. It's really sad. I looked up some Marijuana Anonymous groups in our city and told him about it, so he knows it's out there. He's mentioned it a few times in the last year, so it might be something he tries some time. I looked up the information again for him recently.

That was something I found encouraging: he openly told me how depressed he felt, or when he feels sick, or sad, or tired, or when he needs food (and then I get some for him to help his mood, gently push him to eat so he'll feel better, and then he does). I've asked him to ask me when he needs something so I can help. He was gentler about how he expressed himself (another long term issue we've been facing is his temper. He believed that smoking would make him nicer and, in his words, "less of a jerk", but it didn't work that way at all actually. He still had a hurtful raging temper). A few times in the last 12 days he went back to yelling and saying hurtful things and slamming doors, and I called him on it. Our communication is getting gentler. Just a couple hours ago, he tried to reassure me that he wouldn't leave me or move on to another girl if something happened. Then he walked us to the bus stop. It feels like he's trying. So maybe it was the THC talking before.

I think we're going to have struggles, but it feels indescribably good to see him getting healthy.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

EVERYTHING you described in the last post is EVERYTHING that happens wen coming off pot long term.
Deprssion, fits, etc. Its actually a good sign.
U let him know hes not alone. Ive been reading some earlier posts from u, i am pulling for you both.
Cheers!

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, February 13th (Thursday)

I will definitely keep reminding him he's not alone. Thank you, and I'll check back in about how it goes.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
mezmer
Member
Member # 42406
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, February 13th (Thursday)

Inappropriate reply.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:14 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]


Posts: 55 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Washington
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:08 AM, February 17th (Monday)

Arggh.
This sux.
Tonight, it hit hard.
Im at fault.
I had no morals.
I had no boundaries.
I tore her heart out.
Stomped it.


Well, i deserve this sht.
Dont i?

I wonder what mezmer posted.
Its driving me nuts.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:12 AM, February 17th (Monday)

Silver, ma'am, hows the sitooashun?


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:14 AM, February 17th (Monday)

Silver, ma'am, hows the sitooashun?


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:16 AM, February 17th (Monday)

Sorry, half crazed irishman trying to navigate an android phone.
Double post anyone?

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:49 PM, February 17th (Monday)

The situation is… I think it's what he needs. He's been opening up about some horrible things he went through, and I really think that the weed was preventing him from doing it before. The weed was numbing everything, and now he's processing it finally (and seeing his family has brought up a lot of memories of the things that happened during his alone years). He apologized to me out of nowhere today for all the things he had said about our relationship and other women and for all the ways he made me feel insecure.* We talked for a long time. It was amazing. I hope it helped him. He asked me to bring up my insecurities from now on so he could apologize for each thing specifically. I don't think we need to do that, we need to focus on him right now and all the things he's trying to heal from, especially the sexual and all other kinds of abuse he suffered. It's his first time really dealing with some of this stuff. He threatened me a few nights ago because he thought I had done something, but it was one of his abusers. There is a lot of stuff he has buried. I hope that as he detoxes from the THC, he also starts to detox from all the awful things that have happened to him. This is his healing journey now.

*I asked him one question about a particular time in our relationship and got somewhat of a confirmation… I will deal with that pain in time, but right now the focus is on making it safe for him to talk about - right now, I get the feeling he needs to talk about everything and let everything in his life out.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:49 PM, February 17th (Monday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

He's been opening up every night now. 19 days clean. He misses pot sometimes. Just learned yesterday that his mother died of an overdose. He found out in September that both his parents (who he's been wanting to find for several years now) both passed away - his mother in 2002 and his father in 2012. But he didn't know his mom's cause of death until yesterday. It hit him hard. He spent the evening mourning and also talking about more of the abuse he dealt with and expressing a strong desire to go back and get revenge on all the people who hurt him. He also started talking about some of his exes, about this one encounter in particular. That one was hard to listen to for me, but I listened. He's also started several stories about other girls (at one point, it was going to be something about some girls in his class, at another point something about a different ex) and abruptly stopped talking the moment he said "she"… I want to know what he's not telling me about other women, but now isn't the time to pry about them. He's processing a lot of painful stuff. I told myself I'd be a good friend to him. I'll deal with my own feelings and insecurities separately from him. Wondering how tonight will go, his memories and painful feelings are always worse at night. He has school tomorrow and therapy on Friday, and he's supposed to get more meds on Friday. I hope his therapist can help him.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

One of the things he said at some point in the last few days was that he saw me as "a cute girl" to him at this particular point of our relationship. I had thought we were already in a relationship at the time, and he was beginning his EA. We had had the exclusivity talk. But now he's telling me that on one of the nights when he called, one of the nights when he was having an episode, that he had said "maybe we should see other people". I didn't ever remember hearing him say that. And if he did, he was mumbling. I asked him if that was what he said to give himself permission to get involved with one of the OW. He still maintains that he didn't have sex with her and therefore was never "with" her. H does not seem to believe in EAs or at least he doesn't believe they are the same as cheating. When I said - "you saw me as a cute girl…but not as your girl?" he backtracked. But I think I have my answer.

To him, nothing he did will ever be cheating. Either because it was an EA and not "real" cheating, or because in his mind (even for a moment) we weren't "together". So in his mind, he gets a pass.

I'm not sure if I'm ever going to be able to move on from this. And that worries me. I think there's something wrong with me. I must be petty to hold onto this. But I don't feel special to him. I don't think I ever was. And now, I'm just someone who gives him stability. He's in love with the stability he has. If another girl came along and offered him even greater stability (in addition to attention and sensual appeal), he'd take it.

I don't even know what to say. I just want to shut down. But he needs support right now, since he's still detoxing from the weed and he's finally processing all his painful memories. So…what to do? Maybe promote friendship instead of romance.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

Just had a thought. I was asking the wrong question. The one I should have asked was: "At that point in time, did you see yourself as my boyfriend?" And for later incidents: "Did you see yourself as my fiancé? As the father of our unborn child? As my husband?" for each incident with an OW. If I asked that question… I wonder what kind of answer I would get. It ties right into his little admission two summer ago, when he admitted that at times with other women, he'd "still felt single" (which he later backtracked, but that was the realest thing he had told me at that point, aside from what his actions were telling me). Sorry for the long aside.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Silver - just checking in with you. It sounds like things have changed quite a bit recently with Mr. Silver. I am very proud of him for his decision to end his use of pot. It seems like he was using that as a coping mechanism/escape from a lot of horribly painful things that he has gone through in his life, yeah?

On the same token, it sounds like he is revealing some painful truths to you. You seem to be taking them fairly well in light of wanting to help him, but I can see and feel the pain in your words. I am so sorry. You may not feel comfortable addressing those feelings with him just yet as he goes through what he is going through, but just know that we are here for you if you need to vent or let any of those feelings out. We're here for you.

I haven't been posting a whole lot these last few weeks, but whether I am posting or not, I am still avidly reading, and sending good mental vibes to all.

EH - How is the new Volvo working out for you? And how are things going for you this week?


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Thank you Losfer. I might be venting more here as some of this stuff ruminates. I'm not angry at him. I'm just more…sad. Really sad. I am realizing how little of a relationship we've actually had this whole time, even when I thought we did. He would just say a little word, half to me and more to himself, and excuse himself for us not "having a connection" - or a connection he was choosing to invalidate. And then go act single for a few days or off and on, whenever he felt the slightest like he didn't want to be pinned down, without making a clear choice one way or another with me - and as a result, I always thought we were more committed than we really were. I feel played. But I can't regret it, because I am so deeply thankful for my son. It was all worth it to have him. So… I can be a good listener to my husband, and I think that's the best way I'm going to be able to help him now. That and making sure he eats enough. 21 days today, 3 weeks, he should feel proud!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Sorry, what do you do when that really sinks in? All this time, none of what he did was cheating because we weren't really "committed". I thought we were, but in his mind we weren't. So this whole time, everything I've thought we had… Was all in my own head. I'm having a very hard time dealing with this. I gave him everything for nothing. No wonder he doesn't think either of us cheated. I feel like I gave myself away to someone who didn't deserve me (or value me), and I feel… so disgusted with myself.

I don't know what to do. I want to isolate right now, sleep until there's some distance between these feelings and reality. And I feel extremely conflicted when he wants to kiss me or when he says he loves me. It feels like there's something wrong. Out of place.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Helpless  Posted: 2:50 AM, February 26th (Wednesday)

He has fallen off the wagon. He left just now to go buy some pot. 25 days… I couldn't talk him out of it or distract him for long enough. It looks like I might have to reconsider my plans of moving out and reestablish this as a possibility for my son and I. This is so sad.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, February 27th (Thursday)

Ah, man... I'm so sorry to hear that, Silver.

Is there anything in particular that triggered him to fall off of the wagon, or do you think it was the draw of his addiction pulling him back in? How is he feeling about himself today, after breaking his 25 day streak?

How are you holding up?

Sending mojo and strength...


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, February 28th (Friday)

Left fora bit. Had to go to NM.
Silver, im catching up.
Los, good to see you..

Warning,,,excessive use of barfing yellow circle ahead.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, February 28th (Friday)

Silver, umm,, would u allow a pm?


Respecting your boundaries,,


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, February 28th (Friday)

Los,,,haha,,,the volvo works like any other car ive ever owned.
It has four wheels, and moves under its own power when asked. My friends laugh at me though, they tell me ive gone to the dark side inthat i always said id never buy a four door sedan.


Im old.
My last car?
Nissan 350z.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, February 28th (Friday)

EH - I'm glad the Volvo is working out for you. From what I understand, those are some pretty solid cars! I hear you, though. I would probably catch flak from some of my friends if I were to ever get a vehicle with an automatic transmission. I'm sure that might happen at some point!

Nissans are good cars. I've been a Nissan driver since around '97. Been driving an XTerra for the past 10+ years.

But anyway, good to see you, too, EH. How have you been doing? I always enjoy seeing you check in, and I hope things are treating you well for you and your kiddos.

Thinking of you, Silver. Sending you continued strength.

Hope everyone is doing well.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:29 AM, March 1st (Saturday)

Hi Losfer and EH,

EH, PM is fine.

I am not in such a good place right now.

By sheer luck, he didn't manage to get pot the night he went out. But he came back and verbally took it out on me. Tonight we had a horrible fight. I'm afraid of him. He keeps talking about how he would love to put a bullet in the heads of all the people in the foster care system who hurt him. While it could just be the anger talking, late at night he'll come to bed saying cryptic things and picking fights. Hostile. I hate to even say this, because it's beyond wrong, but maybe he was right on our wedding night. He told me that he wouldn't be such a jerk if he was always on weed. But that can't be true, because he hurt me plenty when he was on it as well. But this, what we've been through for the past month, after every one of his outbursts or slow methodical comments I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I told him that. He left the room, locked the door behind him, and I'm scared to open the door to see where he is. It's just like at the beginning when we were dating. I thought I deserved abuse back then. When I began to get stronger, I thought he was changing, but I was wrong. I'm in a lot worse position than I previously thought.

He's 28 days clean, and I know this is hard for him. He's also terrifying me with his anger. I might not be on here for a while. I need to keep my son and I safe.

I'm sorry, and good luck.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 4:55 PM, March 1st (Saturday)

(((Silver)))

I'm not quite sure how to respond. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. Definitely keep you and your child's safety as a #1 priority. Keep these outbursts documented, and perhaps carry a VAR if necessary. Don't hesitate to contact authorities or seek out help from a women's shelter if things escalate and get out of control.

Keeping you and your son in my thoughts.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:23 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)

Los, good to hear frumya.
El kiddos are finally coming to terms, as much as can be expected. Lots of crying for mommy at first, its ok, i did too.
Oldest has begun to catch on as to wat happened. Ive beenss honest as possible with respect to her age.


Btw, been a nissan fan a long time.
High school had a 71-240, and a 76-260.
Sold those, bought a 96-300turbo, sold that, bought a 350.
Tried to sit in a 370, and realized,,,it aint happenen...
Volvo here i come.
Actually sitten in it was no problem.
Umm, getting out??
Really
Stbx has our altima...somewhere.

[This message edited by exhaustedheader at 12:25 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)]


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 12:47 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)

EH - I'd imagine that is rough, with the kids being caught up in the middle of things. Sounds like you are handling things graciously, and to the best of your ability. Kudos to you.

Prior to my current Nissan, I had a 2WD Nissan pickup. It was a great truck, but did horribly in the Colorado snow with the rear wheel drive, even with the 400 lbs of sand that I put in the back. I had a couple of Subarus before that. My first love, though, prior to my 4wd Subarus, was my '76 Toyota Landcruiser FJ40. Man, I miss that car... down to the manual locking Warn hubs. It had a 4l straight 6 engine that was easy for me to understand and work on. I'm not a very mechanical guy, so that was a blessing to me.

Anyway... sorry... had to shake my head to get out of daydreaming about my first car.

That sucks about your Altima.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)

Los, i didnt know you are here in co...
Hear bout the pile up here in denver?
I got five cars, and a tractor/trailer out of that mess.
I can now retire.

Yep, i had to grab the tractor that had the red car under it.
Only fatality ....if u see the red flatbed tow truck with two cars jammed up under it, thats my friends tow truck. He broke his lower back...first car hit full force, followed by the second at bout 40mph.
I live for that.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, March 2nd (Sunday)

I hope silver and her man r ok...
No answer to pm yet...

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:51 AM, March 3rd (Monday)

Thank you both so much. A VAR is a great idea, in case he has another outburst. He stayed in another room for most of the night on Friday. His main complaint was that he thinks I'm whispering under my breath - he gets paranoid sometimes (I think they might need to adjust his meds, but that's up to his caseworker). I've been trying not to talk so much - I wonder, is this a habit I have, and I need to be more mindful? Do I somehow talk under my breath without thinking about it now? If so, then it's a habit I need to change so I won't upset him anymore. I told him I would be mindful but wished he would talk calmly about what's bothering him before his anger bursts out. He's been angry yesterday night and tonight, but hasn't taken it out on me. But I keep smelling alcohol on his breath. I think he said something about whiskey a few nights ago, but I haven't seen the bottles - but he's still going out to smoke for longer periods, which he doesn't do when it's only cigarettes. He didn't used to drink every night. I think he's using alcohol in the meantime instead of pot. Less expensive, but the effect it has…?

So the plan is to wait another month and see if it gets better, identify his triggers and try very hard not to aggravate him, and to make sure he eats enough and sleeps by a certain hour.

I will support him as best I can. But my biggest focus needs to be on Lil Silver. Our son is #1.

Take care you all.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, March 7th (Friday)

Just checking in on you, Silver. How are things going? Been thinking of you and your son.

Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, March 11th (Tuesday)

I had a long post here and just realized I was breaking my New Year's Resolution of not complaining. More concise update: my husband has quit smoking pot, but he had resumed drinking, almost nightly, and his usual cigarettes. Not sure what he's going to do next. I am working on preparing Lil Silver for preschool. Got some good goals in mind.

How are you all doing?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 5:51 PM, March 12th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, March 13th (Thursday)

Hi Silver!

It's not complaining, it's 'discussing'.

Although I do understand the whole resolution thing, and completely respect that.

I guess the main things I can suggest are to keep an eye out first for anyone's safety being compromised with his drinking: your son's, yours, his, or anyone else. Second to that, keeping an eye out for any codependent type behaviors... planning activities around his drinking, being expected to act a certain way while he's drinking, etc.

Things are going pretty well here. We've had a couple of big fights this year, which were pretty discouraging at times, but we've worked our way through those issues for the most part.

My son turned 10 years old last month, which makes me feel really old, and makes me realize how quickly time goes by.

That's really exciting about Lil Silver going into preschool! My son really enjoyed his time at his preschool. I hope yours does, too!

Great to hear from you.

Hope everyone is doing well!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, March 14th (Friday)

I had a long post here and just realized I was breaking my New Year's Resolution of not complaining.
I read it before you yanked it....so there!
More concise update: my husband has quit smoking pot, but he had resumed drinking, almost nightly, and his usual cigarettes. Not sure what he's going to do next.
This would worry me, honestly. Alcohol was an issue of my wife's pre- and during- the affair, and it's a nasty trigger if she even seems so much as buzzed.

It's even worse, because part of the reason she felt disconnected from the marriage and myself was because I was essentially 180'ing her due to the booze. She's not totally wrong, I was detached from her....I wasn't mean, but I was focused on making the healthiest choices for myself and my son at the time....but for the abuser on the other side of the 180, I can see how it'd appear that your spouse doesn't care about you anymore, you know? Funnily enough, I was the happiest and healthiest I had been in quite some time prior to the 2 or so months before DDAY, when her behavior went off the charts crazy. After DDAY, I kind of snapped back to those codependent behaviors for a little bit, because they feel very natural for me....it's like my fallback position, you know? Logically I know that detaching was the right thing to do due to the drinking, but something nags the back of my brain saying, "Well, maybe if you weren't so distant she wouldn't have...."

Stupid brain.

being expected to act a certain way while he's drinking, etc.
This. All day.

My son turned 10 years old last month, which makes me feel really old, and makes me realize how quickly time goes by.

That's really exciting about Lil Silver going into preschool! My son really enjoyed his time at his preschool. I hope yours does, too!

I have an almost 7-year old finishing up first grade...looks like we all have kids a few years apart. Nice to see....there are a lot of members on here with grown kids, and there are some things that are more difficult to navigate having pre-adolescents in the house.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, March 14th (Friday)

Hi Losfer and Ascendant,

Good advice, thank you. I've been doing the eggshell dance lately so your points about codependent behavior are absolutely true. I'm going to read "Codependent No More" (it's sitting in front of me now) and see if I can practice some better skills.

She's not totally wrong, I was detached from her....I wasn't mean, but I was focused on making the healthiest choices for myself and my son at the time....but for the abuser on the other side of the 180, I can see how it'd appear that your spouse doesn't care about you anymore, you know?

Exactly this… Ideally in a family everyone looks out for each others' safety, both emotionally and physically. But when a person gets addicted to substances, they're not taking care of their own health and then they become careless with their family's health as well. And it's hard to agree on healthier behaviors, especially when they don't want to talk about the drugs (pot), alcohol, or cigarettes (which worsens my migraines sometimes). My husband says it's his business, and maybe he's right. But then he accuses me of playing games if I gather up my son to leave the room in response to his behavior. I thought leaving the room was a healthy alternative to fighting, but maybe there's a new skill I need to learn that's not fighting but not leaving either. I don't want to make him feel abandoned.

Was that complaining? I want to learn how to communicate better and discuss instead of complain

Things are going pretty well here. We've had a couple of big fights this year, which were pretty discouraging at times, but we've worked our way through those issues for the most part.

I'm sorry to hear about the fights. When you all have fights, does it set you guys back in terms of affair-related matters, or is it easier to get back on track together? Are there still things that are hard for you to talk about?

My son turned 10 years old last month, which makes me feel really old, and makes me realize how quickly time goes by.

Congratulations! Happy Belated Birthday to your son!

I have an almost 7-year old finishing up first grade...looks like we all have kids a few years apart. Nice to see....there are a lot of members on here with grown kids, and there are some things that are more difficult to navigate having pre-adolescents in the house.

True, these are such important years for them. These are the years where anything we went through as kids, we try to give them better, only we have a limited delicate time to make the best impression. Here's to all the folks on this site with little ones in the home

Shout out to EH! Your knowledge gave me the right things to say to my H and the right encouragement to get him through the first 28 days. He no longer keeps track of how many days he's been off the pot and no longer expresses a desire to smoke it. Thank you for all your good advice; it worked! Right now he's kinda in denial about some of his stuff, but if he ever opens up to support, I will encourage him to talk to you. How is everything going for you and your kids?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 4:56 PM, March 14th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:09 AM, March 15th (Saturday)

I definitely know I'm codependent if I spend my spare time wondering how to be a perfect wife and how to be his dream girl so he won't go cheating on my again and feeling like if I cannot be his dream girl then I deserve it. I still feel like I deprived him somehow because of how much more "alive" he seemed with the OWs. If he wanted me during those times, he would have been doing those things with me instead of them. So I'm the one who feels unworthy, after all this time. I keep thinking he was never in love with me and isn't now, and I'm responsible for that for not being the right person. The only person I'm not unworthy of is my son: it's the converse, I cannot afford to not be up to standards with him. He's the light in my world and the very best person I know, and knowing I'm the one who is responsible for making sure he grows up healthy? Never felt so READY to do the job RIGHT for him!!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 11:12 PM, March 17th (Monday)

I'm going to read "Codependent No More" (it's sitting in front of me now) and see if I can practice some better skills.

That is a great book. I'd recommend it to almost anyone. I had a lot of notes and highlights in that sucker! I hope you get as much out of it as I did.

I thought leaving the room was a healthy alternative to fighting, but maybe there's a new skill I need to learn that's not fighting but not leaving either. I don't want to make him feel abandoned.

This is a fine line with a child in the house. There are some things you just don't want your children to see or hear. On the other hand, if you are having a healthy argument, then I think it is beneficial to your child to see to adults debate and come to a healthy conclusion.

Was that complaining? I want to learn how to communicate better and discuss instead of complain

I didn't view that as complaining at all. It sounds like you still have some concerns about your relationship and your husband's behavior, and I feel you are talking about them openly and anonymously here without compromising or assassinating his character in any way. IMHO, of course.

I'm sorry to hear about the fights. When you all have fights, does it set you guys back in terms of affair-related matters, or is it easier to get back on track together? Are there still things that are hard for you to talk about?

Thanks, Silver. It all depends on the type of fight it is, and how far it escalates. If I feel my wife is being irrational and abusive, then I feel it sets me back quite a ways. It takes longer and longer to recover from those types of fights, because I question what I am working so hard for. When we are fighting over regular things that couples tend to fight about, it is usually over really quickly, we come to a mutually reasonable agreement, and I feel like that process actually brings us close together. To answer your other question, there are still a few affair and paternity-related things that are difficult for me to talk about.

Congratulations! Happy Belated Birthday to your son!

Thank you! It is scary how quickly it goes by, though. Like I was telling my dad, I keep looking for the pause button, but somebody has it stuck on fast forward.

Here's to all the folks on this site with little ones in the home

I'll second that!

Ascendant - When I first started going through this, my son was right around the same age as yours. D-day #1 was about four months shy of his 7th birthday.

I definitely know I'm codependent if I spend my spare time wondering how to be a perfect wife and how to be his dream girl so he won't go cheating on my again and feeling like if I cannot be his dream girl then I deserve it.

I think the key here is perhaps detaching your self worth from him, and maybe placing it on yourself. Be your own dream girl! I know it is easier said than done. I am still working on self worth issues as well. I think a lot of us here do struggle with that from time to time. You are talking about deserving the cheating, which makes me sad. There are many things that you do deserve... being treated lovingly and respectfully, just to start.

The only person I'm not unworthy of is my son: it's the converse, I cannot afford to not be up to standards with him. He's the light in my world and the very best person I know, and knowing I'm the one who is responsible for making sure he grows up healthy? Never felt so READY to do the job RIGHT for him!!

Even though I don't agree with you thinking your son being the only you are not unworthy of, I do completely agree that you are totally worthy of him! When you talk about him, your love and deep feelings of care and protectiveness of him shine through in your words. I'm glad you are there for him to be such a positive role model, and such a great mother!

Hope everyone is doing well and having a great St. Patrick's Day!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, March 19th (Wednesday)

It all depends on the type of fight it is, and how far it escalates. If I feel my wife is being irrational and abusive, then I feel it sets me back quite a ways. It takes longer and longer to recover from those types of fights, because I question what I am working so hard for. When we are fighting over regular things that couples tend to fight about, it is usually over really quickly, we come to a mutually reasonable agreement, and I feel like that process actually brings us close together. To answer your other question, there are still a few affair and paternity-related things that are difficult for me to talk about.

Abusive… that word always means a red flag to me. When you are feeling abused, does she deny it (do you two disagree on what's abusive so it's harder for you to be heard)? Is it something you guys have talked about? That's a serious matter, I think. If any one partner feels abused, then they can't feel safe in their relationship. And I know that's why we're all here - but if you're feeling abused, that's important to address and nip in the bud. Is it under certain circumstances where it seems to come up, or is it a general thing?

Yeah, this healing is a life-long deal, isn't it? Hope it'll gradually get easier for you to talk about the harder stuff and find your voice. Sometimes that's the hardest part, because there is so much pain to acknowledge.

This is a fine line with a child in the house. There are some things you just don't want your children to see or hear. On the other hand, if you are having a healthy argument, then I think it is beneficial to your child to see to adults debate and come to a healthy conclusion.

Definitely agree. In recent cases, it hasn't been a healthy argument unfortunately. I wish they were, because it's important that Lil Silver learn those healthy skills. But the arguments seem to differ from healthy ones in that healthy arguments have the undercurrent of respect, but the ones we've been having have one of disrespect. The other day Mr. Silver had an episode, scared me pretty bad, so I responded by keeping calm and trying to reality-test with him. He always apologizes the next morning, but in the moment his anger is terrifying. He kicked a shelf pretty hard and the slamming things around is something I've asked him to stop doing. He was going pretty well, so when he kicked the shelf - even more eggshells. Don't feel that's safe to be around. I didn't rugsweep, called attention to it instead. Fortunately he left the room on his own. It's been a couple of nights. I'm trying to come up with a good plan for the next time I sense either of us escalating. I know there are a lot of things on his plate that's making it difficult as well, and it was the wrong time for me to bring up certain subjects. I think my questioning him about some A-related things a few nights ago might have triggered him, and he wanted to retaliate. It's something he's always done, even before I became a MHer in our relationship.

For now, we need to focus on the things he's remembering from his childhood and early adulthood, the abuse, the abandonment, his feelings around all of it, all the stuff around meeting his family again and mourning his parents, the new addiction he has (alcohol), and our son obviously. To be honest, when he's not drinking, he's on the phone or texting with his sister (which is good, they're reconnecting, but it's also kinda triggery, but it feels douchey to bring it up), so it feels like Lil Silver and I are on our own more than before - maybe a good thing. Our relationship can and should wait, and he said something to me the other night that made it clear I'm on my own with my issues (the ones around both our infidelities). But for the first time, I truly feel I can handle them myself and go forward without asking him any more about it or looking for any more validation. He made me see that it's something he can never give, and that makes sense.

I think the key here is perhaps detaching your self worth from him, and maybe placing it on yourself. Be your own dream girl!

Sound advice! For a long time I thought 'dream girl' was about what I could be to Mr Silver, but now it's about rediscovering plants and creative writing (and being a mom), that rush from geeking out over all things botany related and writing stories and reading TVtropes, lol. Being your own 'dream girl' / 'dream guy' has to make you feel alive and inside your skin, not someone else, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. That's one thing no one should have to compete on.

Sorry for rambling. Happy return of Spring everyone.

ETA: Goal is to return here once I've read at least one chapter of Codependent No More. Gotta do the work! No excuses.

ETA again: Sorry, came back and clarified a bit more on question about abusive, hadn't worded it right.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:39 AM, March 20th (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
betraydtwice
Member
Member # 38921
Default  Posted: 1:33 AM, March 20th (Thursday)

Hi Everyone. Ok so story now....H had EA in 2012-2013. We have been reconciling although to him it is and always was business at usual. No discussion...Nothing ...Struggled from march 2013 til now almost a year to the date. Had huge blowout with H over no discussion and no talking about our relationship in Nov 2013. I told him if he won't talk to me then I need to make other plans. He makes plans for our future and I say nothing....But I keep thinking to myself is that what I want?

I do nothing I seem stuck.

Meanwhile in Nov after the fight I go on a dating site. I get lots of hits but really only talk to men I feel I have a connection with. I start talking to one man fairly soon. We seem to hit it off. We got to know each other and then in Feb the messaging became more sexual. He has been trying to come to me for about 2 months and I keep stalling him. He thinks we are separated.

I'm not separated, but H and I are not connected.
H thinks everything is just fine.
OM thinks we are starting a serious relationship.

I have feelings for both men but a new beginning sounds so great..so fresh...so exciting....such different men and such different lifestyles..........so many new hassles, fuss and muss and love and lust and hate and pity and sorrow....
One life with H safe secure? but i just don't care so much anymore for our relationship...something died. H tries hard but we don't communicate. So what is the point??

The OM comes with hope, promises, passion, growth, but also change, struggle, compromise, uncertainty of future (will it last)...Is he worth it? Should I just go for it and maybe it will be amazing??

HELP

STUPID STUPID ME


Posts: 148 | Registered: Apr 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, March 20th (Thursday)

I'm not separated, but H and I are not connected.

married is married. You're already cheating on him. Do the next right thing - telling your husband, and breaking it off with this guy. Get into IC to determine why you made this choice and if it's to feel validated and wanted by another man, then find a way to get your self esteem back without hurting yourself or other people.
Or, divorce your husband and live honestly, which requires you to tell the OM you're actually still with your husband. And think about it, if the guy knows you're separated he shouldn't be in a relationship with you either. Red Flags on this part.

Decide how you want to live, clarify your values and if they include honesty and integrity, you already know what to do.

Good luck!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 9:00 AM, March 20th (Thursday)

betraydtwice...

You have a PM.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, March 20th (Thursday)

Btrayedtwice,

Are you ending the A and coming clean to your H?

One life with H safe secure? but i just don't care so much anymore for our relationship...something died. H tries hard but we don't communicate. So what is the point??

If you choose your M, even for stability alone, there cannot be an OM. If you know you're done with your M, then put your energy into separating and divorcing. Either way, end the A - you're not free to date unless you're single, and you're not single, you know this.

The OM comes with hope, promises, passion, growth, but also change, struggle, compromise, uncertainty of future (will it last)...Is he worth it? Should I just go for it and maybe it will be amazing??

It wouldn't be. The reason why it seems so nice now (hopes, promised, etc), is because it's an escape from something. "Make the well illegal and see how sweet the water tastes" and all that. This affair began within your marriage, at the expense of your marriage and integrity. Can you imagine how much worse it would get as it continued? You'd have to keep lying… It would cost everyone.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, March 22nd (Saturday)

Read the first chapter of Codependent No More. This is a good book already. It sounded like the woman in the example was looking for her H's behavior to change for her to feel better. At first I denied feeling the same, since I don't look to Mr. Silver to define my happiness - but then started thinking, I give him an awful lot of control over my unhappiness. That's definitely codependent and definitely something to work on.

Thank you all for the book rec/encouragement! Hope everyone is having a safe weekend.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
tigereyes
Member
Member # 25318
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Do I belong here now or am I being harder on myself than necessary?

My WH had 2 EA's over the last 4 years. Before that, there were multiple "smaller" issues, mainly just lots of disrespect toward me. After his last EA (which was with my best friend) I have been done. We are separated and while I thought about R, I've already gone through a false one of those and he really hasn't changed. For financial reasons, we are going to have to stay married for a while, but there is no relationship between us. He wants to come back, but I don't want him to. I am done, I have been neglected for a long time, and i just don't love him anymore. The months of the fallout after this latest affair killed everything I could have ever felt for him, he was just selfish and only cared about "his pain".

So, I caught up with an old friend from high school. Really, not even an old friend. We went to school together from Kindergarten through the 12th grade but we never really hung out. But we started talking and found out we probably should have been friends before. Turns out, he is a pretty awesome guy.

I am not looking for any sort of relationship obviously, I am still married, although it is literally a paper marriage. I was the only one who remained faithful for 21 years, my H says he never took our vows seriously and he still doesn't think that what he did was "that bad".

So this weekend, he had the kids and I met up with the old friend and we ended up having sex. I have been celibate since H's affair with my friend was discovered so I'll just say I have been a little "frustrated". For the first time in years, I felt desired, appreciated, like someone cared about me.

I am not in love with this guy and he isn't in love with me either, we were very clear that this was a FWB situation. I'm not with my H, but this was the first time I have been with anyone else in 22 years. Should I feel guilty? H has already moved in with another woman even though he still claims he wants to get back together with me, but that isn't going to happen. Knowing we will have to be paper married for a while, is it ok if I start moving on with my life? I feel like I have wasted so many years on this man already and really would just like to live my life now.

Is it considered cheating when the marriage is already dead? Before, I believed the divorce should come first but I never imagined that I would HAVE to stay married for a while.


BW-40
WH-41 2 EA's that I know of, 1 with my "best" friend of 26 years
Married almost 22 years
4 kids - 21, 18, 14, and 11
He filed D 6/11/14
Fighting me for custody

Posts: 113 | Registered: Aug 2009
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 7:07 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

PM for you tigereyes


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37630 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
Seasickyetdocked
New Member
Member # 42876
Sad  Posted: 2:22 PM, March 24th (Monday)

Been lurking forums since last week and when I found this one I felt safe to ask questions here.

Long story not so short I found out less than a month ago my husband was having an EA/PA with an old co-worker for last six months. Gut had had suspicions something wrong but thought he would NEVER do something like this especially since I had out him thru this before. He has always been that perfect husband and great kind, sweet man in everyone's eyes including mine.

I had a EA/PA with an old boyfriend 14 yrs ago. We lived in different states so mostly thru email but contact whenever I went home to visit family. Lived 1000 miles from all family and had a one year old baby. Lonely, disconnected sexually and emotionally from husband, he disconnected as well. Two young kids with a baby and no help and no good examples of healthy family life. Excuses excuses excuses. We fought and cried and then rug swept. Both took 50% marriage blame but I don't know if he knew how sorry I really was since we didnt go to MC. There was NC as soon as A was discovered.

Flash forward five years and second son born. We had a better marriage but both should have been in IC for FOO. lack of sex drive and intimacy let me turn a friendship with male half of our 'couple friends' into an EA though I'm not sure I understood that then. I shared way TMI about grievances and said things in moments of anger, whether at myself or H, with this OP. OP was a cheater so I felt weirdly safe being "myself" or "honest" about all of mine and H's issues. OP turned physical with a kiss which I admittedly liked for the attention but never had even a flirty friendship so was not, so I thought, inviting this. Even though I didn't want more I was cake eating because I felt disgusted and didn't want to go down that road and hurt my H again but also thought it was ok to continue friendship. When H found out he was deeply wounded and as I recently found out, never believed it hadn't gone further physically. Immediate NC that has lasted to this day.

So flash forward again. H goes out of town a couple of times a year for work. This last trip he turned a very inappropriate EA into a PA though I suspect it may have actually become PA when she was here for work in October. We live on different coasts so no worries PA is still happening and swears he wants R and when given the choice sent an "it's over" email the day after dday. I don't call it NC because email lacked any emotion, just one sentence. "I'm sorry but the time has come." Her response "I understand, go work it out"

WTF?! I'm sure anyone here can understand my doubt that it was that easy but disgusted and reassured(?) when he said that they'd discussed the possibility of this happening and if so it would be short and final goodbye. Ugh!

So of course, still reeling and riding the emotional roller-coaster since its still so fresh. Hurt that he refused to come clean on how long the inappropriate EA had really gone on, he said six months. I found an old email 1 1/2 weeks after Dday &first MC session and on our son's tenth bday that lead to finding a chain of sporadic inappropriate emails for eight years.

I question everything now. He found us a MC and we went one week after Dday and have a weekly appt. I went to first IC and he goes to first IC tonight. Sick and hurt and raw and needy and GUILTY. For the first time in years I went into MC ready to talk about everything. Own up to my mistakes. Own up to my anger issues or emotional disconnect issues. Sadly before this I really though we'd come so far in last nine years and had a good, maybe even great marriage. We are great friends, we have better, more intimate and more frequent sex. He's a great dad and works his ass of as I am a SAHM and our kids our amazing and fairly normal and untroubled. My 15 yr old even talks to us about his relationship problems and friends and school, etc. Now I can't stop asking:

"How much of the last few years have been a lie? "
"Is this my fault? Karma? Just desserts?"
"Why couldn't he come to me?"

I've read a million postings and the favorite piece of wisdom is the: own up to your 50% responsible for the marriage troubles, he's 100% responsible for the affair. I fully accept that on my part for my past misdeeds and made sure MC knew of both at the start and apologized again and took responsibility

But it doesn't ease the gaping raw wound inside. After second MC sessions I felt close to suicide(no worries, lived thru two in my lifetime and would never do that to my children or my father, his mother committed suicide). He seems remorseful but obviously still in fog. Still not telling me everything, sometimes I want to hear sometimes I don't. Slight blame shifting in sessions that destroyed me cause I already was feeling guilt and zero self love. Took a few days to even understand that it was blame shifting. Found an email this am that contained no personal or emotional things but still was a kick in the face that it's not 100% NC. They work in same business but not same company and chances are they will see each other or have to email professionally occasionally. This email did not seem work related and was only a few words but didnt seem work related. He took passwords off of iPad and knows I've read email but deletes everything now and even browser history. Phone is a work phone so no access prior to Dday and all evidence erased after. Did find phone with no password for first time this am, it's how I found the email on his work account.

Sorry this is long and rambling and confused. I haven't slept all night and I just feel lost. Thank you for letting me share. Thank you all for sharing your stories. So depressed to see how infrequently they seem to end in D.

Has anyone here been thru this and come out on the R side?

Me-37
H-38
Married 17 yrs next week.
Two sons: 15 & 10


Posts: 2 | Registered: Mar 2014
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, March 25th (Tuesday)

Doing some catching up here on this thread...

Seasickyetdocked - Hello, and welcome to SI! I'm glad you have found some help through reading, and that you have decided to start posting here as well. I am really sorry to hear that you are hurting so much.

How did the IC session with your husband go? In my personal experience, being in a madhatter situation myself, I have found the individual counseling, healing, and work to be the most important.

It sounds like your d-day was very recent, so you will be questioning things for awhile. It's okay to continue to verify your husbands actions. It's also okay and normal for both of you to offer up full transparency at this point in time.

"Is this my fault? Karma? Just desserts?"

Absolutely not. Like you correctly stated, he is 100% responsible for his affair. The only actions that you can own are your own.

Has anyone here been thru this and come out on the R side?

We're still in the process of reconciling. I have a feeling we'll probably come out on the R side. I know of a few couples in madhatter situations who are pretty solidly in R. It can work! There is hope!

The most important thing to focus on healing is yourself first, though. If you can focus on healing yourself, then you will end up better and stronger, despite the outcome of your marriage. If you are both working on yourselves, then you will both be better partners for each other, too.

How have things been going for you this last day or so? Any better luck at sleeping last night?


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:14 PM, March 25th (Tuesday)

Silver,

Read the first chapter of Codependent No More. This is a good book already. It sounded like the woman in the example was looking for her H's behavior to change for her to feel better. At first I denied feeling the same, since I don't look to Mr. Silver to define my happiness - but then started thinking, I give him an awful lot of control over my unhappiness. That's definitely codependent and definitely something to work on.

I could tell just from you reading this first chapter that some of this is maybe hitting home with you. I can really relate to that. Have you continued reading in the book?

For someone who does tend to exhibit codependent behavior, and I am speaking of myself, it can be a tough book to read, but I also think it can be empowering. There were a lot of things I was doing that I had no idea that I was doing until I read this book. Like you said, giving your partner control of your unhappiness, that can be a big one to work on. My wife was once called "the barometer of the family". I think the intent behind that statement was that her mood and disposition could fairly easily and accurately predict the mood and disposition of everyone in the household. Hopefully things have turned around a bit with that.

When you are feeling abused, does she deny it (do you two disagree on what's abusive so it's harder for you to be heard)? Is it something you guys have talked about?

That first question is really interesting about whether we disagree on what's abusive. I think we do disagree on that. We have talked about it. I tell her that she was being abusive towards me, and she denies it. I think part of that may come from some of the abusive behavior she received as a child. Maybe what she redirects towards me isn't as extreme as what she experienced. One thing that she doesn't deny is that she says some really hurtful things towards me when she is angry.

Is it under certain circumstances where it seems to come up, or is it a general thing?

It is almost always under certain circumstances. So it is not a constant thing.

Yeah, this healing is a life-long deal, isn't it? Hope it'll gradually get easier for you to talk about the harder stuff and find your voice. Sometimes that's the hardest part, because there is so much pain to acknowledge.

Yes, it is a lifelong deal. Thanks for the encouragement, support, and understanding, though. Coming out here and discussing things can sure help at times.

I'm trying to come up with a good plan for the next time I sense either of us escalating. I know there are a lot of things on his plate that's making it difficult as well, and it was the wrong time for me to bring up certain subjects. I think my questioning him about some A-related things a few nights ago might have triggered him, and he wanted to retaliate. It's something he's always done, even before I became a MHer in our relationship.

How has that been going the last few days? I think it is important for everyone, regardless of BS, WS, or MH status, to have healthy and enforceable boundaries in their lives. The thing is, in order to enforce those boundaries, you almost have to have a plan in place. It's nearly impossible to determine what you are going to do when things are in the "heat of the moment". Have you had any more discussions about this incident that Mr. Silver had with kicking the shelf? It sounds like it frightened you pretty badly.

Have you had conversations with him about how he would like A-related conversations to be brought up? Perhaps give him a say in that, and then at the same time list out a couple of your boundaries as well?

I know you've mentioned that you feel as if you are going to have to deal with the A-related stuff on your own. I understand where you are coming from, within the context of the other information that you provided... about new things coming to light about his childhood, him reconnecting with his birth family, him dealing with a new addiction. Still, I don't think it's fair to take the A stuff off the table. If it is still causing you any type of discomfort, or even if you still have a strong desire to talk about it, it's still a viable topic of conversation within the relationship.

Sound advice! For a long time I thought 'dream girl' was about what I could be to Mr Silver, but now it's about rediscovering plants and creative writing (and being a mom), that rush from geeking out over all things botany related and writing stories and reading TVtropes, lol. Being your own 'dream girl' / 'dream guy' has to make you feel alive and inside your skin, not someone else, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. That's one thing no one should have to compete on.

That sounds really great! Why not concentrate on those interests and talents of yours? That's awesome.

Sorry for the delay in reply. I was tying up some loose ends before going on vacation last week, and ever since then... well, I've been on vacation.

How has everything else been going?


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
Seasickyetdocked
New Member
Member # 42876
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, March 26th (Wednesday)

Losfer

Thank you so much for the kind words and support! I couldn't even bare to look yesterday at the forums or this thread because in the end this whole thing is humiliating. Maybe even worse for those of us here. But with that bad comes the good(?) of knowing a little more or understanding easier the how and why of getting here? Maybe that's just hope, not a bad thing.

Sleeping a little better but honestly not without medication. The anxiety is crippling at times. Silence is the worst.

My H's IC seemed to go fine. He said it felt good to be able to talk to someone about everything on his own and it lifted a lot of his anxiety. He felt calm for the first time in weeks. I wanted to hit him. I cant eat, i cant sleep, i cry all the time when im alone and a general mess because he needed a big ego stroke but HE's now calm. But at the same time was happy for him because I love him and maybe more IC can snap him out of his fog and denial of how big a deal this is.

I have another IC today, hopefully I get out some of the anger before MC Friday.

Also I have a few questions that I know everyone has a different answer for but I'll throw them out and see what I get.

I've read a lot about HB or even people that still are having sex with spouse post Dday. How? How do you get to the point of wanting that again? How do you stop the mind movies and wondering if every touch or action was something THEY did together? After the second week I allowed my H to snuggle in bed and we hug and I like and crave the affection but nothing more. I don't think we've even kissed since then. It's so weirdly lonely and sad.

Everyone seems to be split on how much to ask about the A and details. Hearing him say that 'sometimes you just meet someone and feel this connection like this person truly understands me' soul mate crap just crushed me but it was also the big wake up I needed to realize how much he was still in the fog. Does asking the hard questions and knowing the timeline help snap them out of that fog? I want to get to the real hard work we have to do on bonding and communicating but I feel like MC is a waste of time if you BS is still in some fog.

I feel awful asking for complete transparency in regards to checking his email and texts even though I do it when he's not watching. For one just doing these things makes me a person i don't like being. also, I feel like talking about it will only make him delete the info before I can get it. Both his phone and computer are work issued so I have no access during the day. I guess this is where I have to start with the rebuilding of trust maybe? Trust that he will not delete browser history and emails?

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Also I would like to say to all the people who've posted before me, thank you. Thank you for sharing your stories and experience. Seeing other people's struggles has helped me understand my own better and every post gives me a new path to think about and explore. I wish all of you happiness and luck with your own struggles.


Posts: 2 | Registered: Mar 2014
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, March 27th (Thursday)

Hi Seasickyetdocked -

Just checking in a bit. Glad to hear that you had a bit better luck in the sleep department. It does get better with time. It is okay to rely on medication for sleep/depression issues, although I'd definitely recommend consulting your doc about that if you haven't already.

HB seems to be different for everyone. My wife went through a phase of it early on. I do understand the distance and detachment when it comes to intimacy as well. We've gone through phases of that also.

When it comes to asking the hard questions, and figuring out what level of detail to go into, I honestly thing that rests primarily on you. There are some people who want every last detail. I am not one of those people. I still had some fairly detailed questions, but a lot of the nitty gritty was just way too soul crushing to me. In my case, getting a timeline did help quite a bit. As far as snapping out of the fog is concerned... that doesn't seem to happen until true remorse happens. You'll know it when you see it.

Trust is slow to rebuild. Trust, but verify. If you are still early out, it is okay to be in espionage mode as well. If you have access to things he doesn't know about, it is okay at this point not to give up your sources. Nobody likes doing their own PI work, but at this point in time, it is important to look out for yourself as much as possible. Again, it takes a long time to rebuild trust.

Hope things are going well and that everyone is hanging in there this evening!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)

Welcome, Seasickyetdocked!

After the second week I allowed my H to snuggle in bed and we hug and I like and crave the affection but nothing more. I don't think we've even kissed since then. It's so weirdly lonely and sad.

Take your time, do what makes you feel comfortable. Talk about it. You don't have to pressure yourself to do more than you're ready to.

Does asking the hard questions and knowing the timeline help snap them out of that fog? I want to get to the real hard work we have to do on bonding and communicating but I feel like MC is a waste of time if you BS is still in some fog.

Sometimes. Sunlight can be a marvelous disinfectant. When he writes out a timeline, it might force him to answer some questions that make him uncomfortable, because all the secrets are being exposed. It might also really help you to have all the answers in one place. There is only so much you can do to "snap him out" of the fog, and largely it has to come from him. But timeline can really be helpful. Is he working on one for you? Is it something you can work on together?

I guess this is where I have to start with the rebuilding of trust maybe? Trust that he will not delete browser history and emails?

It might be too soon to trust, especially if he is still in a fog. But checking the history and emails together might help the process of rebuilding trust and accountability for him. If you have doubts, you can verify - do checks without him to see if he's deleting anything before doing checks together. Until he leaves the fog and until your gut is quiet, I think it's good to keep verifying so you can get as much of the truth as possible.

Can phone records be changed? If not, that might be a good thing to begin checking together.

Losfer,

That first question is really interesting about whether we disagree on what's abusive. I think we do disagree on that. We have talked about it. I tell her that she was being abusive towards me, and she denies it. I think part of that may come from some of the abusive behavior she received as a child. Maybe what she redirects towards me isn't as extreme as what she experienced. One thing that she doesn't deny is that she says some really hurtful things towards me when she is angry.

I think if you see it as abusive, then it's something for her to look closer at. It's important that you don't get invalidated. Maybe by looking closer at how you're feeling and validating you, it might also help her examine some of the abuse she went through as a child and validate her own experiences, and find common ground and compassion for both experiences. Is the childhood abuse something she's been exploring?

How was your vacation? Hope you all had a good time!

As for stuff happening at home...

About three days ago, my H said nasty/scary things late at night again. I told him that if he's really sorry about doing it (he apologizes the next morning and then does it again a day later), then don't do it for a week. He hasn't done it in three days so far. But there have been other things happening, and everything else caught up - feeling very depressed right now. Going to "think my way out of it" later, but for right now, just trying to accept it. Using those fabulous DBT skills.

I wish I could set up boundaries around A-talks with H, but he sticks to his guns that neither of us cheated, nothing happened with him and other girls, and therefore there's nothing to talk about. Complete and utter denial and minimization. Unfortunately, after four and a half years of this, I think it's time to accept that I will be healing from this alone. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:21 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)

Damn, I broke my rule again.

He did it again last night, started in on me. When he did, I was too angry to speak, so it ended sooner than usual. Now he's asking what we fought about last night.

Still angry with him, so trying to think of solutions. I think no longer engaging when it happens might help. I don't want to feed the dance.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:56 AM, April 3rd (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)

Hi Silver,

I think if you see it as abusive, then it's something for her to look closer at. It's important that you don't get invalidated. Maybe by looking closer at how you're feeling and validating you, it might also help her examine some of the abuse she went through as a child and validate her own experiences, and find common ground and compassion for both experiences. Is the childhood abuse something she's been exploring?

I completely agree with you that it is something that needs to be looked at. Continually, actually. My wife has addressed many of the things she went through during her childhood in IC, and through her own personal research and reading. I'm probably not going to talk about it too much more here, because she is a member here. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable if she does decide to come back here and read/post some more. One thing I will say is that she has been working very hard the last several weeks on her anger management, and not "blowing up". She has made noteworthy improvements, and I'm actually really proud of her for this, because I can see that it is a struggle for her, and I can see that she is making some very visible changes.

How was your vacation? Hope you all had a good time!

The vacation was fantastic, thanks! We stayed local, so I guess it was more of a "staycation"? Got a lot of stuff done around the house, caught up on some much needed sleep, and had a few fun family outings. It was really refreshing for all of us.

About three days ago, my H said nasty/scary things late at night again. I told him that if he's really sorry about doing it (he apologizes the next morning and then does it again a day later), then don't do it for a week. He hasn't done it in three days so far. But there have been other things happening, and everything else caught up - feeling very depressed right now. Going to "think my way out of it" later, but for right now, just trying to accept it. Using those fabulous DBT skills.

I can't really speak to the DBT skills, although I have heard it is a really powerful, yet intensive therapy. I'd say definitely to use those skills that you've learned from DBT to the best of your ability. It sounds like you really did a fantastic job at staying cool and collected, and standing your ground. Has the depression gotten any better? Sending you many kind thoughts as far as that in particular is concerned...

I wish I could set up boundaries around A-talks with H, but he sticks to his guns that neither of us cheated, nothing happened with him and other girls, and therefore there's nothing to talk about. Complete and utter denial and minimization. Unfortunately, after four and a half years of this, I think it's time to accept that I will be healing from this alone. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

That really sucks that you are carrying this weight on your own, Silver. One thing that I am impressed with is that you are continuing with your own healing anyway. Throughout my own experience, and what I've witnessed from others here, that really seems to be the healthiest path, no matter the outcome. You may not be able to heal your marriage or relationship on your own, but one thing you do have control over is your own healing. That definitely does not have to be a bad thing. That is a sign of strength. I've read a lot of your posts over the last couple of years, and I can see you healing, and see your strength shine through. Definitely keep up with that.

Damn, I broke my rule again.

You know... it's okay to vent if you ever need to. I understand your personal rules, but sometimes you just have to get this stuff off of your chest, even if you are just talking things through with yourself.

He did it again last night, started in on me. When he did, I was too angry to speak, so it ended sooner than usual. Now he's asking what we fought about last night.

This sounds to me like it is probably related to his alcohol usage. I'm not quite sure how to advise you here. If he has had too much and is not listening to reason, it is okay to draw your boundaries and disengage for the evening. Maybe shelve things until the next day? Perhaps you could even write down what he is angry about, and let him know you aren't playing games, it is late at night, and you'd prefer to talk about it tomorrow? I'm just kind of grasping at straws here, trying to help you figure out how to deal with the situation. Definitely take or leave whatever suggestions I come up with.

Still angry with him, so trying to think of solutions. I think no longer engaging when it happens might help. I don't want to feed the dance.

I think you might be right that some form of detachment or disengagement might be key here.

How have things been going the last day or so?

Seasickyetdocked - You still with us? Hope things are going well.

ETA: Edited for grammatical discombobulation.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 10:40 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, April 4th (Friday)

I'm probably not going to talk about it too much more here, because she is a member here. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable if she does decide to come back here and read/post some more.

That definitely makes sense, and it sounds very respectful of her boundaries.

One thing I will say is that she has been working very hard the last several weeks on her anger management, and not "blowing up". She has made noteworthy improvements, and I'm actually really proud of her for this, because I can see that it is a struggle for her, and I can see that she is making some very visible changes.

That is so wonderful to hear! It sounds like there's a lot of healing going on right now

Has the depression gotten any better?

Not yet. I think this has been a good learning experience that I still look too much to friends and family to help stabilize - too much external validation. And there's been a lot of interpersonal drama with just about everyone lately. I've got to picture what life would be like if I were my only support system… What would be my first step to getting stable again? I'm stuck at the first step. Is it NC with everyone?

I can't really speak to the DBT skills, although I have heard it is a really powerful, yet intensive therapy.

They really really really are! I'm one of those nuts who think EVERYONE would benefit from the DBT skills just because they help you manage your life so well. Apparently they take a lot from Buddhist principles and incorporate them into the lessons.

Perhaps you could even write down what he is angry about, and let him know you aren't playing games, it is late at night, and you'd prefer to talk about it tomorrow?

I think this is a great idea! It's always easier to talk about the next day when he's not angry, and I think he knows it too - the next morning he always says that he didn't mean what he said the night before, but I think it's worth talking through again, because he wouldn't keep bringing up similar things when he gets drunk if it were really "nothing". I've also been trying to use the VAR on nights when I think he's winding up.

Throughout my own experience, and what I've witnessed from others here, that really seems to be the healthiest path, no matter the outcome. You may not be able to heal your marriage or relationship on your own, but one thing you do have control over is your own healing.

So true! I learned that from the WS side more than anything. When you take charge of your own healing, you take charge of your own life.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 8:34 PM, April 4th (Friday)

Just a thought… Maybe I can list the things that I'm stuck on in my personal life:

- Readying Lil Silver for preschool - having some difficulties with behavioral issues (he hits and bites me a lot) and toilet training. Also need to take him to the playground to be around other kids everyday, and it's sometimes hard to leave the home with the depression and anxiety.

- Addressing my hoarding/cluttering issue. I've been working hard on all my things in the basement (complicated situation - my godmother has a habit of making my things disappear - that's what triggered the depression earlier this week, when she threw away some of my chief cooking spices and I discovered this in the middle of preparing a meal), and I've almost gotten through the "sorting" phase. Got about ten more boxes I'm having trouble sorting… Figure the next step after is "purging" within each category (S.P.A.C.E. = sorting, purging, assigning a home, containerizing, equalizing). Having trouble getting motivated with the depression. Thinking a second trash sweep. Preferably will get rid of a bunch and make it all look presentable before my aunt returns from DC in June, since she and the other extended relatives are pressuring us all to empty the basement (for no reason at all - not to renovate, not to put something down there, they just simply want an empty basement… I'm not thrilled about this idea, since the majority of my things are down there).

- H's anger issues and supporting him as he gets some family back (sister, brother, cousin, in-laws), and deals with losing others (both his parents).

- Friend drama to the max. Suspect two are having an A, another one is suicidal, a family of friends have suddenly dropped off and I'm paranoid I inadvertently offended them (it's probably just that they're busy - I'm trying to tell myself this), and my BFF is struggling with lots of life things and I'm getting tongue-tied and dealing with general social anxiety around all of them. And a new friend on a writing support site has just told me she has brain cancer. Super worried for half my friends, super pissed with the two I think are having an A.

- Anxiety about eventually returning to work. I'm asking around about opportunities in my old field. Struggling with knowing what job skills I'll need, hoping to start volunteering when Lil Silver goes to preschool (stressing big time about financial aid)… I'm on disability income right now, but the constant fear for both H and I is that we'll be kicked off eventually and be expected to make it in the job world - with our disabilities - and that we won't have the skills we need. Both that and the de-hoarding tie in to my fears about eventually finding another place to live - the Section 8 housing list in our city is CLOSED, so finding low income housing (without getting evicted in under 28 days, as is the practice of several low income housing landlords here) is going to be difficult.

My own family stuff is still in the background, but I'm trying hard to NOT think about my dad anymore. I still miss my Nana all the time.

There's so much to do, and I feel overwhelmed. I know logically I need to think of a plan. The depression is making that difficult. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

On the bright side, got the living room looking great. Anyone in the household who complains gets put on compost duty


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:52 AM, April 7th (Monday)

In slight disbelief…

My father wrote me today - just got his email. So did the family of friends who I'd been trying to reach. And the forms came in yesterday for preschool financial aid. At first I thought Mr. Silver and I were going to be a team - he said he'd go in with me. A little while ago he abruptly told me to go into the preschool and have them walk me thought it - said it rather nastily - because I know one of the people there. Sudden change, with cursing and total disrespect in his tone, as if I wasn't doing or planning well enough. I could write it off as stress, but I don't curse him out when I get stressed.

As for Dad… I will write him back. Not sure it will be right now, though. I'm deeply hurt he took so long, and that he responded to none of what I asked him in my emails to him. No talk about my Nana, none about my family (of course)… And he was so chipper. No apologies for not writing in so long (8 months since the memorial service). And he informed me that my grandparents (the ones I had the frightening falling out with) are moving to this state. I hope they stay far, far away from me. As far as I'm concerned, they're unsafe for me and my son. Which is making me wonder what I should say back to my father. Should I just validate him for the fun he's been having in the kitchen? Ask him simple recipe advice? Say I'm glad the grandfather's surgery went OK? And nothing more? I don't want him to know too much personal information anymore. He threw me away. He doesn't want to know my issues. He's not a support system.

Upset about the two friends who appear to be in an affair. Upset about the cheating (if I'm right and that's what's happening), upset about losing friends, and weirdly upset about being made to feel like the third wheel for so many months before now. I have no proof of the cheating, just the vibe from their messages - it's a group conversation email type thing, between four of us - one friend, the other friend, the other friend's spouse, and me (three of us are college friends). I've noticed that the one's spouse and I haven't been responding to as many emails lately - I wonder if he's feeling the same discomfort I am (the times he does respond seem forced, like he's trying to be happy when the two write poetry to each other). The three of them hang out in person a lot more (and lately have been seeming to try to hide this from me, in a weird way, which just adds to the secretive/inappropriate vibes), and it seems like the two always have these flirty inside jokes, or one only ever responds to what the other one says, either ignoring or disagreeing with what I or the one's spouse says. It's sickening. Luckily the couple is moving at the end of the month to another state. Hope that puts an end to this whole mess. The worst thing is, I keep doubting myself - what if they really are only friends and I'm being paranoid for no reason (but my instincts have almost never been wrong before), or what if (if they do have some kind of connection) the one's spouse is somehow above board on it? Ugh. Going NC with them.

Looking forward to hanging out with the other family of friends.

Anyway… going to do the best we can on the financial aid app. Just going to accept that this will be a very stressful week. But once we get this in, it's probably over being stressful for a while at least with that battle. Once April's over, we can begin to let go of the stress. We will find a way.

Peace...


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, April 7th (Monday)

anyone else's spouse answer a question with "the same reason you did." infuriating. Why? fucking blameshifter. Just answer the question.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, April 7th (Monday)

Silver-

You''ve got a ton on your plate right now. The thing about your friend''s affairs sucks. I''m in a similar situation with a former buddy who became a WS and his BS who are reconciling... I don''t want anything to do with him, but he''s recently popped back in to my life.

Rachel- No advice, sorry. It''s never happened to me.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, April 7th (Monday)

anyone else's spouse answer a question with "the same reason you did." infuriating. Why? fucking blameshifter. Just answer the question.

Did he say that recently to you, Rachelc? Has he ever looked deeper than this, or has he always blameshifted?

I''m in a similar situation with a former buddy who became a WS and his BS who are reconciling... I don''t want anything to do with him, but he''s recently popped back in to my life.

Sorry to hear, Ascendant. How are you handling the situation right now, with him trying to get back in your life? Is it bringing up triggers for you?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:21 PM, April 7th (Monday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, April 8th (Tuesday)

yeah he did. and he said, "this is a cop out answer but the same reason you did." I said, "yep, cop out answer."


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, April 10th (Thursday)

That's so strange. He acknowledges it as a "cop out answer" but then gives it anyway? What work is he doing on himself to take responsibility for his affairs, and to help you heal?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, April 12th (Saturday)

Just checking in here. It has been quite a few days since I've posted in this thread, but it does always kind of feel like 'home', if that makes sense.

Silver - It sounds like you have gone through some pretty heavy things personally and with your FOO in the last week or so, how are things going now? Did you write your Dad back?

I'm not sure how to advise you with the awkwardness that you seem to be feeling in your response to him. If it is of any comfort or commiseration, I talk to my parents once or twice a week, and I am so different from them that the awkwardness is still there. I think that's just the way it is with some people and their folks. It's like we're from different planets. I know you have a hell of a lot more going on than just that, but I wanted to at least let you know that I understand to a certain extent. It's okay if you want to respond to him and respond to kitchen and cooking topics. I talked to my folks about gardening and ham today, even though there is so much more that I would like to say.

How are things going with NC with your friends? That's gotta be tough. I'm so sorry you are having to deal with that. Even this far out from d-day, I bet that is triggery as hell.

Rachel - My wife and I have never said that flat out, "the same reason you did". We have done some stare and compare type conversations, where we compare our mindsets with each other while in the midst of our respective bullshit, which has actually been a constructive thing. To me it sounds like your husband said this out of exasperation, and not wanting to deal. Do you think this is a temporary thing, or is this his attitude in general?

Ascendant - How are things going for you recently?

As for me, things are going pretty well, especially in the last two or three months. I hope it sticks.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, April 14th (Monday)

If it is of any comfort or commiseration, I talk to my parents once or twice a week, and I am so different from them that the awkwardness is still there. I think that's just the way it is with some people and their folks.
I'm like that with my mother....but I'm really tight with my dad. We have similar intellectual viewpoints, senses of humor, etc. I don't "get" my mom in the same way I "get" my dad, you know? Even when my dad does things I don't agree with, I understand his mental space and the machinations behind the decision-making process....but with my mom it's like trying to listen to someone's conversation through a wall...it just seems like unintelligible jargon.
Ascendant - How are things going for you recently?
Honestly? I don't know. I mean, no fights or anything, but still a lot of resentment there inside me....and I don't know how to deal with it, or resolve it.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, April 14th (Monday)

I'm a reluctant madhatter...after enduring five years of my WH''s EA/PA I found comfort in the arms of a married man. I realize that that sounds as though I'm blaming WS and I'm not---I chose this path and it's my fault. Things went fast and furious with my AP and I ended things today when I realized the hopeless nature of our relationship. We were together less than three months. Yes I'm going through huge withdrawal already but my IC can address some of those feelings. My question is do I have to tell WS? He has no suspicions and we are trying to figure our own relationship out. Yes, I realize I am hiding something huge from him but if it's over, and it is, why must he know? My own trip down Infidelity Lane has sure given me a different perspective on why WH strayed. I think I have finally understood why he did it and can move on. Anyway thanks to all.


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, April 14th (Monday)

My question is do I have to tell WS?

yes. do you really want to be someone who has to trick someone into staying married to you? Love him enough to give him the choice. Love him enough to want to have a chance at true intimacy. If there is a big secret, there is no chance for this, IMHO.
It's tough - I've been there - but it's the right thing to do. AND, if your AP has a spouse she needs to be informed.

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:03 AM, April 14th (Monday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, April 14th (Monday)

Ugh. I've read enough on this board to know that would be the answer. I don't relish this conversation tonight with Mr. D. I just hope he will listen before making a rash decision. Wow do I hate the thought of telling AP's wife. She's really innocent in all this. Although I sure wish someone would've told me five times before. I cannot believe how weak and stupid I've been to even be in this situation.


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, April 19th (Saturday)

Do you know what hits me hard sometimes? There were a couple people who knew about my attraction to AP. No one knew when it went physical. I told my bff and she told me to keep my mouth shut. 3 days later I confessed. She and I are no longer friends. What hits me though is how many suspected? I remember mentioning I thought he was attractive to a coworker and she asked me why I didn't do anything and I told her I'd never do that to xSO and I meant it at the time. I think of a time AP texted me after we went out drinking with everyone from work. I was with a coworker and showed her the text saying he was an idiot and I was going home to my boyfriend. The text was asking me to go to his place. This is also before it got physical. At that moment I got ego kibbles and I wanted nothing to do with him....I just wanted to go home. I wonder if any of my old coworkers think badly of me. Think I am a slut or cheater. Think I am a liar or a fool. I know I can post this in wayward but I don't want to, it feels right over here. I spoke to another coworker about being uncomfortable because he flirted. Same person who was with me when I got the texts.

Then I think of myself during that time as a person. I was still me but a me with aspects I do not like. I wanted a promotion but treated the people I was supervising as friends. I remember one claimed on a table after work one day and was dancing. I scolded her but never reported her. One mooned us one day, I scolded him but manager was there too and nothing was mentioned. I listened to music with them when we closed and acted silly dancing while we closed up. I wanted to be light hearted and fun but wonder now if I was overly friendly and a fool. Was it just another step on this path of stupidity? Who I was in that time frame of 6 months I rly do not like. I analyze everything now. Fuck my life. I want to move to a state where no one knows me and start anew. Is that cowardice?


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
chefwifie
New Member
Member # 43187
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, April 24th (Thursday)

Is it OK to feel like I'm better than my WH husband? Because I do. =/

I had an unintentional long distance EA a long time ago. And when I realized what I was doing I cut it off and haven't looked back because I didn't want to do that to my husband. I never told him about it then because I didn't want to hurt him. I never intended to do anything like that again -- and I haven't.

Last year my husband had an EA and I understood where he was coming from because I had been there. I "came clean" about my EA so I could show him how I understood the loneliness and felt like my WH didn't care about me anymore. We rug swept the entire thing and tried to work things out. And I really did forgive him and really did try to make things better.


Clue up dd #2. He had a PA with my only real friend. (His best friends wife!) I just feel like I was a better person than him because I had refused to do anything like that to my spouse.


me: 34, mad hatter. EA in 2005. I broke it off.
wh: 39, EA + PA
DD 1 - Feb 1, 13, EA
DD 2 - Apr 17, 14, PA, double betrayal
incredible, sensitive, smart, and beautiful boy: 10

Posts: 19 | Registered: Apr 2014
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

forget the part about being better than him. You did do that to your spouse.

Figure out why you guys rug swept both affairs and didn't deal with it. did you go to MC or IC?
was transparency in place on both sides?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Chefwife,

Can you look at WHY you need to feel better than him?

Being a madhatter is very difficult. R in that status is hard. Not placing ourselves as being better than our partner is one of the things that can make that possible.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
chefwifie
New Member
Member # 43187
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Thank you. Both good points from both of you.

I think I know why we rug swept our EAs. I came clean of mine when I discovered his. We both were transparent about what happened for those things. And I felt as if I really understood why he did what he did. I was willing to overlook/forgive him for what he did. I guess he never really reacted to my EA as he was still engrossed in emotional reactions to being discovered, etc. We never went to any sort of MC or IC then. But now we are.

As for why I felt the need to feel better, I don't really feel the 'need' to feel like I am a better person than him. I was feeling really angry this morning. I felt like I had realized all of the wrong I was doing all those years ago and stopped it on my own. My anger over the past week was really eating at me right then and I felt superior.

When does this anger stop? =(


me: 34, mad hatter. EA in 2005. I broke it off.
wh: 39, EA + PA
DD 1 - Feb 1, 13, EA
DD 2 - Apr 17, 14, PA, double betrayal
incredible, sensitive, smart, and beautiful boy: 10

Posts: 19 | Registered: Apr 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Ahhh the anger. That will go up and down for quite awhile. And don't be under any expectations of yourself at this point that it should go away. There is a legitimate reason for you to be angry. The key is in how you deal with that anger and that you not stuff it.
I know that right now you are looking at your EA and his EA and comparing how far you took it vs how far he took it. The thing that you need to look at is the fact that you allowed yourself to cross boundaries at all. If you have looked at all the reasons why that happened, and shored up and fixed all the coping mechanisms that were faulty that allowed that to happen, then you are probably ok at this point. If you have not done that digging, then at some point, it will need to happen. Right in the aftermath of your 2nd DD is probably not the best time.
Big hugs to you, I went through a 2nd DD with my own H, it is very hard.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, April 25th (Friday)

Agreed. I'm no better or worse than my husband; I just had different motivations for my affair (revenge initially and it morphed into marriage-ending.) Betrayal is betrayal and I see no difference in the level of the breach of trust.


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
soosorrymom
Member
Member # 24046
Default  Posted: 6:20 AM, April 28th (Monday)

So DDay 2 was in January we are currently in house seperated and in limbo . BH wanted 6 months to figure out what he wanted. He has since since admitted to joining a dating site and texting and emailing OW. Don't think actually gone on date but spends all his time on phone texting.

Here is my struggle . He thinks its fine to have me do his errands cook and clean for him and then go upstairs and text .
I'm in IC reading trying to make up for what I have done but find it hard when I know what he is doing .
I keep telling myself I should pull away !
Last night I even gave him a massage . As soon as I finished he weren't in bathroom for 20 min to text .

So what do I do ?? Do I do the 180 ?? Pull away ?? Trying to work on myself but his behavior is making me ill.
I now on medication . I don't want to get angry I feel I have no right but won't be taken advantage of either .

Please I need advise from mad hatters


me- FWS 40
Him- FBS 42
Married 13 years together 22years
2 amazing kids 12 & 8
DDay May 2008

Posts: 70 | Registered: May 2009
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, April 28th (Monday)

Soosorrymom, I'm too new to give advice but it seems to me that you're entitled to have deal breakers too and this sounds like one of them. Good luck to you as you sort this out.


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, April 28th (Monday)

sosorry,

I know it feels like you can't have boundaries right now because of what you did, but you can, and you need to.

I would recommend rather than doing the 180, start focusing on you, fixing you. Take your eyes off of him and what he is doing. That will be a sort of 180 but without all of the rules. Once you start working on you and deciding what is best for you right now and what your boundaries are, you will start to get some distance on this and you can better make a decision on what you want to do. Right now you are so close to it and have not drawn any boundaries because you feel that you have no rights.

When you start to work on you, you can start to see that you DO deserve better treatment than this, even though you cheated. Him going out and adding to this pile will not help your M. So the reasoning he is handing you right now is not sound. Your feelings are valid, so get into IC and get to work on you.

This is really the best advice I can give you. Luckily, I had been working on me for a good solid year before HL went out and cheated again. That gave me the knowledge that I did not deserve what he was doing, even though I had cheated. When it happens this close, as in your case it is a little harder.

Big hugs, this is not easy at all.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
soosorrymom
Member
Member # 24046
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, April 28th (Monday)

So basically I should ignore what he is doing and just work on me??? I was trying but so consumed by this I stopped.
I was in IC but we lost out Insuramce for next 3 months so I can't do that anymore .

What about my actions to him ? Do I still go out of my way or just do the basics of what's needed ? I feel like if I pull away too much he will go further in what he is doing but i also don't have it in me to be used


me- FWS 40
Him- FBS 42
Married 13 years together 22years
2 amazing kids 12 & 8
DDay May 2008

Posts: 70 | Registered: May 2009
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 1:42 PM, April 28th (Monday)

soosorrymom...

As explained earlier to you this morning via PM.

You are not a madhatter which prevents you from posting on this thread.

Thank you.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
soosorrymom
Member
Member # 24046
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, April 28th (Monday)

Sorry didn't see the PM


me- FWS 40
Him- FBS 42
Married 13 years together 22years
2 amazing kids 12 & 8
DDay May 2008

Posts: 70 | Registered: May 2009
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Hi there. Back to write an update, think of MH as my home, and sometimes it helps to think "out loud" or in writing.

I think my H really needs me to be his friend right now. So that's been going OK. It feels like with the change in perspective, a lot of pressure is suddenly gone. We're getting him ready to meet his sister's adoptive parents in a month and to visit his mother's grave. He's the type to obsess over details, so maybe he's looking for someone to listen and be just as excited or attentive over the details? He's finishing up his last class and it's in his worst subject, so trying to be supportive there without being his mother. Just showing interest without prying or bothering him too much.

Aside from that, trying to come up with a good list of duties I could perform that would contribute positively to our marriage. I wish I knew his main love language. It's not physical touch… I'm not sure how to narrow it down from the others. I thought it was gifts, and he always appreciated the ones I gave him (ones he explicitly asked for at that), but over the last two months, I noticed every day when he would receive a gift, he would go off on me later that night. Feeling a little shy about trying it again, and concerned about budget.

Hope everyone's doing well, keep on doing the work!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:18 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Sorry, realized I forgot to mention something big that's happened, and I mean to be accountable for my health.

I had kind of a setback recently and had something akin to a nervous breakdown. Couldn't stop thinking about the Golden Gate Bridge and felt very helpless. I called the on-call desk at the therapy center and got the support I needed, now just dealing with the aftereffects. It's been about two weeks now. Right now trying to rebuild my health, remembering DBT skills, reading a writer called Adyashanti that a friend likes, trying something brand-new and loving the voices in my head instead of fighting them all the time… Trying to focus on relearning healthy skills, taking accountability for my own emotions, backing away from unhealthy people, and being a better mother to my son. Finally found a firm way to deal with his hitting, and it's getting better. Playing with him a lot more too (play doh and balloons are the stuff of joy for Lil Silver! ). Slowly. Just got to remember that it doesn't all happen at once, it takes a while to get healthy. My goal is not to judge if it takes time, not to rush. That might well lead to incomplete healing. Gotta make sure to do it right. So right now is a rough personal time, but it's going to be OK. Didn't someone's tagline say: "It'll be alright in the end. If it's not alright, it's not the end"? Love that tagline.

G'night everyone. Take care

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:20 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
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Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

Hi Silver,

Great to hear from you!

First off, I am so glad that you sought out help when you were feeling that way. You are so important to us here, and I can't imagine how important you are to your son. If it helps at all, I have had to seek out similar help, and I am glad that I did. So, really great job on using the tools and resources you have at hand. That is called survival, and I am so glad you chose that route.

I think my H really needs me to be his friend right now. So that's been going OK. It feels like with the change in perspective, a lot of pressure is suddenly gone.

There really is a lot of power to be gained by letting go of expectations of other people, isn't there? As long as you are continuing to keep your long term goals of your own happiness into account, I see no problem with this. I feel there have been times in my marriage where my wife and I have been more 'friends' than anything. Those periods of time seem to have been phases more than anything, and we've always drifted back into that territory of 'friends and lovers', which is my ultimate goal, marriage-wise.

He's the type to obsess over details, so maybe he's looking for someone to listen and be just as excited or attentive over the details?

I think that is probably what he is looking for in you right now. I'd guess that if he is the type to obsess over the details that he has a fair amount of anxiety over them. Sometimes talking through those details over and over again is the best way to alleviate the anxiety about those details.

I wish I knew his main love language. It's not physical touch… I'm not sure how to narrow it down from the others.

Could it be words of affirmation and quality time? It sounds to me like you are already giving a lot of both of those. Have you talked to him about how you feel about him going off on you when you buy him a gift?

How are things continuing to go with your son? Sounds like you are making a lot of progress there. He is so lucky to have you in his life.

Things are going pretty good here, for the most part. There was some stress around the Easter holiday regarding family interactions, and some current stress about my wife's cousin who has cancer. My wife really does not handle familial stress very well, and it ties directly in to her coping mechanisms in the past. Comparison of now versus then, she has gotten a lot better at coping in (mostly) healthy ways. The main thing that comforts me is that I don't have any doubts about her fidelity. That part of her seems to have changed 100%.

As far as my own coping mechanisms are concerned, I've been cutting back a lot on my drinking, and making great strides at it. I've been focusing a lot more on gardening and activities with my son. My head has been a lot clearer this week, too. As a side affect, I really haven't had any desire to smoke. I haven't had a cigarette since Sunday. Yay! Good stuff!

Hope everyone is doing well, and is gearing up for a nice weekend.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, May 5th (Monday)

Thank you so much, Losfer. You all here on SI have supported and taught me so much, and I'm so thankful for that. You guys all taught me that health really is #1. And yes, my son is my whole world. He's my Number One reason why I'm keeping it together.

I wrote way too much now. Sorry about that. To summarize: I tried to talk to him about his getting angry on the same days I'd given him gifts, but I can't remember the resolution on there. I think he tried to say there wasn't a connection and it wasn't intentional and he loves all the gifts.

My son is doing OK, still working on the hitting, but he knows how much both of us love him.

The suicidal thoughts aren't here now, but I'm still feeling very depressed. In general, but also I have more and more accidents when I'm depressed: the most recent one is that I ruptured my left eardrum last Thursday. Just need my caseworker to give me a nice neat To Do list to keep functioning and feeling like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Making a list of all the ways to help H. I am having trouble kissing him, dressing up nicely for him, and responding to his compliments and flirting. Haven't gotten past the "not his best" thing. Also worried about the sexual abuse he endured and all the things he's going through in getting his family back but losing both his parents. Worried about how he's healing, need to make this a safe time for him. So simultaneous feelings of upset because I'm not special to him, and also extreme worry about his mental health. Need to NOT be selfish right now. His health is priority. I'm a list person, I need numbered lists or guides with steps to stay on track.

Things are going pretty good here, for the most part. There was some stress around the Easter holiday regarding family interactions, and some current stress about my wife's cousin who has cancer. My wife really does not handle familial stress very well, and it ties directly in to her coping mechanisms in the past. Comparison of now versus then, she has gotten a lot better at coping in (mostly) healthy ways. The main thing that comforts me is that I don't have any doubts about her fidelity. That part of her seems to have changed 100%.

It sounds like from what you've posted before that some of her family members really hurt her. I can see why any sort of interaction with them would bring up a lot of tension. How do you two cope now, and how is it going?

As far as my own coping mechanisms are concerned, I've been cutting back a lot on my drinking, and making great strides at it. I've been focusing a lot more on gardening and activities with my son. My head has been a lot clearer this week, too. As a side affect, I really haven't had any desire to smoke. I haven't had a cigarette since Sunday. Yay! Good stuff!

That is good stuff! It's hard to quit either alcohol or cigarettes. Sounds like you are channeling your energy in a positive way with gardening and your son! What all are you guys growing? When you were drinking or smoking, was it in response to stress?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:10 AM, May 6th (Tuesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, May 6th (Tuesday)

So i suppose its time to start posting in the divorce side of things.

On a lighter note...hi everyone...and goodbye.
Moved to albuquerque...
shes long gone. Has not even talked to the kids. In a month
divorce clicking along .............


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, May 6th (Tuesday)

Good heavens. Its been almost a year now.
I truly did not realize that...

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, May 6th (Tuesday)

Compared to some, this has been easy.
Really not much in the drama deptartment.
Ehhhh...who am i kidding.
I started it.
U fine mdhttrs keep going.
Luva ya alla.

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, May 6th (Tuesday)

Take care, EH. I'm sorry things didn't work out as you had hoped with your wife. Here's to brighter horizons on your future.

You are always welcome to check back in with us on this thread. You can also PM me at any time.

Best of luck!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
exhaustedheader
Member
Member # 39459
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, May 6th (Tuesday)

Kooll. Thx. Los, i aint goin to far. Just over to the divorce section or new beginings. Maybe. Oddly enough i like the quiet.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: exhaustedheader
tired girl
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Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:48 AM, May 7th (Wednesday)

Good luck EH.

Silver it is good to see that you are doing better. I hope that things continue to improve for you. I know that things are not easy for you, try to remember to take care of you too.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, May 7th (Wednesday)

Hi EH! It's good to hear from you, though I'm sorry things didn't work out and you're going through D. Wishing you a smooth process, and we're here to support you!

Thank you TG and I'm glad you're back! I will remember to take care of myself. I'm trying to learn how. Lots of skills I'm still struggling to learn, but one day at a time, right?

How is everyone doing?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:48 PM, May 7th (Wednesday)

Silver,

You all here on SI have supported and taught me so much, and I'm so thankful for that.

Likewise! I feel like I am constantly getting more back than I contribute, and it is such a blessing to be here. I really appreciate you and everyone else here on SI.

You guys all taught me that health really is #1. And yes, my son is my whole world. He's my Number One reason why I'm keeping it together.

Absolutely. Continue to hang on to that. Your health and your son's health are definitely priority #1. No question about it.

I wrote way too much now. Sorry about that. To summarize: I tried to talk to him about his getting angry on the same days I'd given him gifts, but I can't remember the resolution on there. I think he tried to say there wasn't a connection and it wasn't intentional and he loves all the gifts.

You didn't write too much at all, Silver. I saw your original post. It sounds like you had a lot to get off your chest, even if you did end up going back and editing/summarizing afterwards. It's all good!

Maybe there is a pattern with the gift giving that Mr. Silver just didn't see? The key thing is you talked about it, and he'll now have the opportunity to be more cognizant of that in the future. It may have seemed like the conversation might not have had a resolution, but I don't think that means it was fruitless. I think that was still good communication.

My son is doing OK, still working on the hitting, but he knows how much both of us love him.

Good... keep wrapping him in your love and consistency. Kids can't get enough of that.

The suicidal thoughts aren't here now, but I'm still feeling very depressed. In general, but also I have more and more accidents when I'm depressed: the most recent one is that I ruptured my left eardrum last Thursday. Just need my caseworker to give me a nice neat To Do list to keep functioning and feeling like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Ouch! I'm really sorry to hear about the ruptured eardrum. My eardrum was ruptured a few years back when I got an ear infection, so I do know how painful and uncomfortable that is. Sending healing thoughts in your direction.

I am relieved to hear that the suicidal thoughts aren't there anymore. I am sorry you are still feeling depressed, though. Is it possible for you to start a to do list, and then have your caseworker expand it from there? I know he/she keeps wanting to push things back in your court, so you might have to be a bit insistent on that. A book that helped me with my depression was "Feeling Good" by David Burns. There are some really good tools in there for combating depression. For me, that helped, along with counseling, medication, and the help I have found here on this site. I think it does really take a multi-pronged approach.

Making a list of all the ways to help H. I am having trouble kissing him, dressing up nicely for him, and responding to his compliments and flirting. Haven't gotten past the "not his best" thing. Also worried about the sexual abuse he endured and all the things he's going through in getting his family back but losing both his parents. Worried about how he's healing, need to make this a safe time for him. So simultaneous feelings of upset because I'm not special to him, and also extreme worry about his mental health. Need to NOT be selfish right now. His health is priority. I'm a list person, I need numbered lists or guides with steps to stay on track.

That is very kind of you to help your husband with the struggles that he is going through. Ultimately, his healing is his responsibility. You being willing to support him and help him as much as possible is great, as long as you don't lose yourself in the process.

It sounds like from what you've posted before that some of her family members really hurt her. I can see why any sort of interaction with them would bring up a lot of tension. How do you two cope now, and how is it going?

We're still learning to cope as a team, but the key is, we are doing it as a team! That really makes me happy to be on the same side as her when going through this stuff. I think it takes quite a bit of trust on her part to allow me to be on her side, so this is great progress, and things have been steadily improving in that department this year. There are few bumps here and there, but overall, things are progressing and improving.

That is good stuff! It's hard to quit either alcohol or cigarettes. Sounds like you are channeling your energy in a positive way with gardening and your son! What all are you guys growing? When you were drinking or smoking, was it in response to stress?

Thanks! I haven't quit completely, but I am working on moderation on both of those. I am growing mainly vegetables, but I also have some flowers started. Last night I planted four rose bushes and a cherry tree, and put some mulch down. It feels good to see an immediate result from my efforts and to make the yard prettier. I'm really hoping to get lots of good vegetables this year. My drinking has been twofold. It is something I enjoy, but it is also I do in response to stress. I'm cutting out the coping mechanism part of it, but still enjoying a cold beer after work or doing work in the yard. Typically I only smoke when I drink, so that is naturally being cut down as I cut down the alcohol.

Anyway... I am rambling.

Hope everyone is doing well! If there are any struggling madhatters out there, please feel free to post here. We are here to help.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:30 AM, May 8th (Thursday)

the only thing we talked about last night is that many people say (including therapists) that our marriage can be stronger/better after an affair.
I certainly can understand that if there was abuse, addiction, etc going on, but there wasn't in our case - just hard work and sacrificing.

So, sure, we are kinda enjoying being empty nesters, we both help out around the house, have some fun, but we have never had substance abuse or emotional abusive issues... so there is really no big change - just us getting back on our track.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, May 8th (Thursday)

Rachelc,

Do you feel that there is a big change in you?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, May 8th (Thursday)

ha ha yes! i'm stronger, but I put up with less bullshit. and that makes my world smaller, which is scary for me, as I usually put up with a lot in my relationships. so this may be a scary time for me but as I assert myself I may attract a DIFFERENT kind of person to myself, not men, but like female friends and different family members. And of course, it makes my relationship with hubby different.

And I feel like I'm smack dab in the middle of this change. not nearly on the other side yet.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, May 8th (Thursday)

I see that as a good thing

It will mean that the quality of people in your life will be higher. You will expect more of them, because you expect more of yourself. This is not a bad thing. It only becomes bad when you become intolerant of mistakes and flaws. Everyone is human and we have to be ok with that. But I don't think that is what you are expressing here.

I see your changes as good. So even though the A's were a bad thing, and it has sucked to go through it, it has brought about some positives in you. And in a roundabout way, your M.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

Hello!

A bit late to the party but I guess I have to face up to it that this is where I belong.

I don't really know where to start.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:34 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

Hello and welcome, BBT!

Making your first post here is a great start.

I've been keeping up with your post in wayward today. Hope you and the kiddos are hanging in there.

Definitely make yourself at home here and feel free to discuss anything that is going on right now.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

Welcome BBT,

This has been my home here for awhile as well

I am sure that acknowledging your feelings with regards to what your H did will take some time. You have spent quite awhile denying that they exist.

I can relate to that. Take your time. No hurry.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

Looking at your last few posts on your most recent thread in WS, I'd have to agree with TG. It will take some time to even start to process your betrayed side.

Take your time, and know that we're here for you.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

Thank you LW and TG

I'm really resisting identifying as a MH. As I said over in wayward, I have a voice in my head shouting 'you're not a MH' but I think that voice might belong to my husband.

I did feel like he cheated on me. Absolutely no question of a doubt, I went through everything a BS went through. But part of me feels that we were separated and it's only because he continued to have a sexual relationship with me that I felt that way and the fact I allowed him to have a sexual relationship with me after he left me, well that's my lack of boundaries and it's not his fault.

It was five years ago too, I have healed from it in my own way. It was an open wound, now it's healed. I can look at the scar and be reminded of the pain I felt at the time but it doesn't hurt every day, or even every week or every month. Just once in awhile. Although I'll admit, since my own A and all the work I've put in to healing I've realised just how little BH did back then and it upsets me.

I could sit and look at the scar left by that wound, see our M as a MH situation but my husband will never see it that way. He refuses to acknowledge my feelings about it. So I'm a bit stuck on how to move forward from it apart from to have the strength to finally have some deal breakers if we should ever attempt R.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 8:55 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:38 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

I would agree that the voice in your head is your H's. I think that you have spent a lot of time denying and minimizing how you have felt about it. So while it may feel completely healed to you, if your H were to show you some remorse over what he did, you may have different feelings about it.

My H, HL had his first EA 18 years ago. While I am healed about that particular event, what I wasn't healed about was the behaviors that my H continued to exhibit over the next 18 years that let me know that things were continuing to happen.

The behaviors that your H has continued to exhibit to you is not taking your feelings into account at any point. I believe these are the things that you are continuing to struggle with and are still triggers for you.

As you continue down this path, you will discover your own areas that are not quite as healed as you think and you will work on those. What is really important right now is that you focus on your own healing. Your H has made it clear that he is not interested right now in fixing himself. Don't focus on that. You will know when the time is right to focus on that.

Big hugs. I am thinking about you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:46 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

I think that you have spent a lot of time denying and minimizing how you have felt about it. So while it may feel completely healed to you, if your H were to show you some remorse over what he did, you may have different feelings about it.....

The behaviors that your H has continued to exhibit to you is not taking your feelings into account at any point. I believe these are the things that you are continuing to struggle with and are still triggers for you.

Yup. That's it. Wow.

I still have massive triggers. Reading on here after my own Dday I thought it was relatively normal but now I realise that I'm triggering because of my H, not over random reminders like a song or a place.

For example, the whole separation and limbo situation is very similar to our separation a few years ago. Being intimate with him during limbo was triggering me, he was telling me about meeting girls in clubs and texting them and it was triggering me.

I've fought really hard over the last four months to get rid of those feelings because I kept telling myself it was selfish, wayward thinking and that I wasn't 'getting it' for him.

I'm bit angry that he has never even acknowledged that he hurt me or admitted that he cheated. Is that normal?

I feel like 180 would be a good move for me at the moment, I need to detach. But I'm torn between that and acknowledging that he is still very hurt and might need support from me.

I can bet my life on the fact that the minute I turn away from him, he will come back saying he wants to R.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 3:41 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Being intimate with him during limbo was triggering me, he was telling me about meeting girls in clubs and texting them and it was triggering me.

This was happening during this separation?

You are not alone. During all of our separations HL and I continued to be intimate. It was during this last one that I cheated. I was the one that left, I had never left before, and I was having a very difficult time being away from our kids. We continued to have sex, all the while HL was telling me that it wasn't going to work and he wasn't going to go to MC with me. In a meltdown rage, I texted him what I was about to do and that our M would be over by morning if he didn't text me back. He never texted me back and I went out and slept with someone else. This is why I say that even though you two were separated, you were still M. I was still M, and I had no right to do what I did. I had not filed for D. I had not asked for D.

I think that the 180 has components that are good. That are meant to help a person focus on their healing. That is what I think you should do. Do I think that he will take notice when you start to detach? Yes. Will he want to come back? Maybe. You have to be prepared with a list of your own demands that you hold fast too. He needs to change and fix his own shit. You cannot waver on that. What you have put up with is not healthy for you, it has taken me two years to figure that out and deal with the fact that I did the same thing that you did.

Two years in to our R, HL cheated again. And I busted him this time. That is when he finally decided to fix his own shit and came here and started his own IC and we have been working on it together. But it was a close call of me leaving all together.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:05 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Yes. BH moved out at the end of February, about two months after Dday. He said he needed space to think about what he wanted to do. He came home from work, packed his stuff and left. Later that evening he walked back through the door and burst into tears. He told me he was scared I wouldn't wait for him while he sorted himself out and that I would find someone else.

Ever since then he has been back and forth. He would come round to see the boys, stay to have dinner and then stay the night with me. He would trigger after sex and not speak to me for a few days. Then it would all repeat.

Any time he needed comfort or intimacy from me I would be there for him. He says he continued to have sex with me because he was 'testing the waters' to see if it could be any different without the mind movies and triggers.

Having sex while separated and him not really talking to me about anything was a trigger for me but I tried to ignore it.

He goes out a lot with his single friends. About a month ago he told me that he had met a girl in a club, exchanged numbers and had been texting her, flirting and 'getting to know her'. When she invited him over to her house to 'watch a film', he stopped talking to her.
Then his friends decided he needed to get laid so they introduced him to a girl they knew who had a thing for bedding soldiers. He was snap chatting and texting her for a while but couldn't actually go through with sleeping with her.
I have no idea if he's telling the truth or not. All of that was a huge trigger for me too.

I have no doubt that if I do the 180 and turn away from him, he will panic and want to reconnect with me but if I think about it, the best thing I can do for both of us is to stop enabling him. If I heal myself I will change the unhealthy dynamic of our relationship and then he can either choose to heal himself or not.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

You do recognize that the behaviors that he is engaging in are wayward behaviors right? These are not the behaviors of a married man. He is not sorting himself out, he is getting validation from the opposite sex. At this point you are going to have to figure out what your boundaries are regarding him. That will be hard, because you haven't had any. It was hard for me. Figuring out that I was worth saying no to my H, and that I didn't have to put up with it anymore. It wasn't easy, because after all, I had cheated too. When you enter MH status, it becomes very difficult to feel like you have to right to stand up for yourself. But you do.

If I heal myself I will change the unhealthy dynamic of our relationship

You will, but more importantly, you will change the unhealthy dynamic of your thinking.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
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Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

After I posted my previous reply I've done a lot of thinking about those girls he was texting.

My A was the more recent one and I have done everything I can to change that part of myself. He is still engaging in wayward behaviour and he won't even admit to himself that's what he's doing let alone admit it to me. I know why, looking in the mirror is really difficult!

At the time he was texting those girls he was telling me he was undecided about R or D, the separation was for space and he was still having sex with me. He only told me about it after he stopped texting them.
I cried when he told me about those girls his response was 'are you fucking serious? You're crying over some texts?' Then he started telling me about how he couldn't sleep with those girls because that would be cheating and that's the difference between him and me.

I've had some huge revelations in the last 12 hours. Part of me wants to tell him what I'm thinking and be angry with him but the other half of me knows it would be wasted because I don't think he'll ever see it as cheating.

Chapman does an apology language test, just like the love languages. It identifies what is important to you when you have been wronged/hurt. The most important things to me are expressing regret (for hurting me) and accepting responsibility (for what they did).
This is really important to me and I don't think I'll ever get either of those from him. I know from past experiences with other people it takes me a lot longer to heal if the person who has hurt me doesn't acknowledge my pain.

He doesn't know how I feel about those girls though, I never pushed the issue because it was so soon after my A.

I don't know whether to talk to him about it and see where I get or just keep quiet and focus on me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Maybe work on detaching a bit more. Maybe in the future, he will be more open to hearing you. Your feelings on this are very important, and writing them down, such as journaling would be good. Trying to get him to hear you when he is not in a place to acknowledge you is only going to hurt you more.

I believe that he is going to have to do his own work on himself before he can ever really hear you on this. HL had to do that. He couldn't really hear my hurt until he could acknowledge that yes, he was actually doing something wrong. Up to that point, he blamed it all on me. Your H is doing something similar. And it hurts a lot when they can't hear your pain.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
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Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Took your advice, just wrote a long, rather pain filled letter. Then I put it in an envelope and tucked it at the back of a drawer in my bedroom.

I feel better for getting it off my chest. I'm going to read the 180 and write out the bits I feel will be helpful to me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

I am hoping for your sake that there comes a day when he wakes up and realizes that he needs to fix himself as well and he does it. Then you are able to share that letter with him and he will hear you. Really hear you.

Hugs. Feeling our pain as both a BS/WS is not easy.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
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Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Doing some digging and lots of thinking about the current situation and a few things my IC has said.

I think I'm co-dependent. Actually, that's crap. I know I am. I just started reading Co-dependent no more and it's like it was written about me.

Anyone else experienced this?


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 7:31 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

I haven't actually read that book, but have heard enough about most of the dynamics to know that HL and I practiced being very co-dependent with each other. It is something that we both try to watch now.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 7:33 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

A lot of things in that book hit home with me, BBT. Lots of annotations and highlights in that one!

The positive thing is, once you recognize the behavior, you can start to change it.


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Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 8:44 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

For sure, regarding the Codependent No More book. Some of it I already knew due to the addiction issues in my FOO and those family members working programs and my dad doing Alanon...but there was a lot of revelatory stuff in there for me regarding the reasons why us codependents are that way...i.e., the desire for control.

It was kind of a bitter pill to swallow, because you spend so long telling yourself "I don't want to control them, I just want them to do exactly what I'm telling them to! They'd be SO much better off if they'd just listen to me!!!"

...and then you read the book, and you're like, "Duh."

For myself, that revelation was the easy part...the 'letting go of the outcome', hands-off-the-steering-wheel aspect was hardest for me. Not criticizing, complaining, or getting angry when my wife wouldn't do what I thought was the {best/healthiest/most logical} course of action.

Took me a while to get that part down...or to improve, anyway. I still have to choke down some controlling-type stuff that pops into my head from time to time.

The only issue I had with the book is the religious tone of it. That's not a criticism of the book itself, it's just an aspect that has zero resonance with me...I can mentally reframe some of the ideas, but when it's God this or God that, it loses me.

I'd still really recommend it to someone who needed it.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2262 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
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Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

This may be a really dumb question, but...what is the Madhatters Only Thread? Or who is it for? I know what a Madhatter is, but just not getting this...I guess?? HaHa


Me:BS
Him:FWH
2 DS:35 & 30 , 2 D Grandchildren
"Oh the webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive"....My WH quotes this often.
I found out about H's affair 25 yrs later.Mine is my own "Life is a journey, travel with Care."

Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: New Mexico
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Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, May 14th (Wednesday)

Trying2LoveAgain - A "Madhatter" on SI is someone who has worn both "hats" in their current relationship: wayward and betrayed. This thread is for those of us whom are specifically in that situation.

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Default  Posted: 1:35 AM, May 15th (Thursday)

It's going to take a while for me to sort through it, I don't really know where my co-dependency comes from. I don't know any alcoholics or anything like that.

I did have an abusive boyfriend when I was 16, I was with him for three years. And BH's drug use in the first two years of our relationship while I was pregnant and with a newborn was a real problem but I don't think he was an addict.

I can relate to every word of your post, Ascendant. The bits about God lose me too.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 1:36 AM, May 15th (Thursday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
rachelc
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Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, May 15th (Thursday)

I'm not sure if I was co-dependent before the affairs, but I sure was during his acting out. One of the hardest lessons to learn was letting him own his actions, even if he DIDN'T own them, that didn't mean I needed to. very hard.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
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Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, May 15th (Thursday)

Many times when both or just one partner get healthy, they realize it was the dysfunction that held the union together. It's scary to just work your process and not know what the outcome will be. There is no guarantee we'll get healed and still want to be married to the same person. It may no longer work for either partner. In the end though, better to be healthy and strong and be set free.

Rebreather said this on a post in Recon.

Hit me like a ton of bricks. But maybe in a good way?!

There are over 200 points on that checklist in Co-D No More and it's a list of my entire personality. There are only a handful of points I can't recognise in myself. How I have not realised this before is beyond me. I must have been living under a rock.

I don't know for sure but I doubt co-dependency is usually linked to A's. However, BH had been away for nearly five months when I had my A and I'm thinking his absence + my co-dependency = A? Will need to dig into it in IC.

I have all the answers for BH's problems. If only he would listen to me, he would feel so much better
I can't fix him. My A caused him incomprehensible damage but ultimately, his healing isn't my responsibility.

I've got a long way to go before I am undependent. One day at a time, right?

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 8:03 AM, May 15th (Thursday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, May 16th (Friday)

I can't even begin to make sense of what happened tonight.

The last couple of days I've been doing the 180, focusing on myself and doing well with processing my feelings. I've felt really good about myself, much stronger.

Husband called me on it. Said I'd been acting weird, like I hate him. I think he means that I haven't been following him around like a lost puppy.
I said I didn't hate him, I was just working on a lot of personal stuff, healing etc. He started talking about how I'd been lying this whole time by saying I wasn't going to give up on our marriage and would wait for him until he was sure and that it was obvious now that I wasn't even bothered that it was over.

He ends our marriage, says he doesn't love me and can't forgive me. And now he's angry that I'm not falling apart and concerned that I won't 'wait' for him

I said that I had been fighting tooth and nail for this marriage but that falling apart wasn't going to help either of us or the kids. I was fixing my shit and that was me doing the best thing for my family.

Then he got angry saying breaking up with me was the best decision he ever made. Then he got angrier saying he was doing me a favour, that I could be happy now for the first time in six years.

I don't even....

What the hell?

Someone help please!

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 4:51 PM, May 16th (Friday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
rachelc
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Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, May 17th (Saturday)

I imagine that when one starts the 180, things get worse before they get better. It's a change and I'm guessing the fact that the spouse being 180'd can't control the other spouse pisses them off royally and they try to get the BS to jump back in the drama ring with them. Don't fall for it.


However this:

saying breaking up with me was the best decision he ever made

would be hard to recover from. Stay the course and HIS true nature will be revealed.

I'm no expert on the 180 but this is what I would do.

[This message edited by rachelc at 7:34 AM, May 17th (Saturday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, May 17th (Saturday)

I''ve never done the strict 180 in the context of infidelity, but I can tell you from experience of detaching for other reasons: it does indeed get really hard before it gets easier.

It just takes a while to get all those emotional ''hooks'' out of the other person...meaning, to get to a place where their every emotional twist-and-turn doesn''t result in you being yanked about. It''s gut-wrenching at first, because your heart (and the corresponding codependent brain processes) are telling you to chase, pursue, fix, and soothe the other person as a means of calming your own anxiety that has been fastened to their emotional state for so long.

It takes a while to to be able to tell those inner voices to STFU, because you now know better you''ve been burned by those processes before.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 9:44 AM, May 17th, 2014 (Saturday)]


I have a competition in me.

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Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, May 17th (Saturday)

It's gut-wrenching at first, because your heart (and the corresponding codependent brain processes) are telling you to chase, pursue, fix, and soothe the other person as a means of calming your own anxiety that has been fastened to their emotional state for so long.

This is what's going on today.

He's at the house, we always spend weekends together as a family. He's being affectionate and flirting.

It's really hard because all the old emotions are still there. But things are different now, my boundaries are different, I'm different. If he wants to be in this M he has to own his shit and fix himself. He can't 'nice' his way back in.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

He's at the house, we always spend weekends together as a family. He's being affectionate and flirting.

It's really hard because all the old emotions are still there. But things are different now, my boundaries are different, I'm different. If he wants to be in this M he has to own his shit and fix himself. He can't 'nice' his way back in.

Good. What he is doing is called the push and pull power dynamic. He pushed you away, and now he is trying to pull you back in. Since you are not falling for it right away, expect him to amp it up. If that doesn't work, don't be surprised if he gets mad or accuses you of being in another affair. Be prepared for what is coming down the road emotionally from him, he has been used to pulling your strings for awhile. All you need to do is control yourself, you don't have to take responsibility for what he is feeling. Easy to say, hard to do.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
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Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

What TG is talking about here has also been called "Hoovering". Here's a great link on it for you, if you'd like to learn more:

http://wwwq.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=480828


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Default  Posted: 6:13 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

He left a little while ago. He triggered over something on the telly. I asked if he was ok, he said he was and shortly after he went back to his place.

Then he started texting me asking how to deal with triggers. I'm not a complete bitch, he triggers because of my A so I put the 180 on hold and talked to him about it. Gave him advice from SI on how to cope with them.

Throughout the conversation I kept reminding myself of my responsibilities; I cannot fix it for him, it's not my job to help him heal but I can support him in his own healing.

We had a really good chat about it all. He seemed to be willing to help himself.

We'll see. I'm going to keep doing my own thing. If he does the work, great! If not, I'll still be working on the new and improved version of me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

LW, great minds think alike. I was talking to YOP earlier and I said BH was hoovering!

ETA, I must stop calling him BH at some point. What do MH's call their spouces on here?

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 6:15 PM, May 17th (Saturday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

I still will refer to HL as my BH when I am on a thread, after all he is. And he will refer to me as BW, or sometimes you can use BS if that feels easier.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
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Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

For quite some time I have just been referring to my wife out here as "my wife". As far as labels go, I guess she would be my BG/FWW (betrayed girlfriend/former wandering wife), and I would be FWB/BH (former wandering boyfriend/betrayed husband). MUCH easier just to say "wife".

Besides... I am quite proud of calling her my wife these days.


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Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

I was going to say what Losfer did, sort of. If I'm speaking in general (where it's necessary and/or appropriate), in the Menz thread for example, I'll use WW as a catch all. If I'm speaking specifically to my situation, I just say 'my wife'. I'm not a huge fan of labels, but I understand the need for shorthand in forums such as these.

Also, I came to find SI in my role as a BH. My selfish behavior happened earlier in our marriage...doesn't make it better or worse, just that in terms of this site and how I use it, I 'wear that hat (the BS)' more often than not.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 9:17 PM, May 17th (Saturday)]


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Default  Posted: 9:22 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

I agree with what Ascendant is saying here. There are many times I will refer to HL as H, I think it is more when I am speaking to a new member that I will refer to him as my BH.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, May 17th (Saturday)

Same as everyone else, I just call him my H, my husband, or Mr. Silver… It just feels right, but it's really whatever feels right to you…

Welcome (((BrokenButTrying))). I'm sorry you know the pain of both sides. We're here to support you. It sounds like addressing your BW side has been a struggle, especially with your H's lack of remorse. You're doing awesome work, don't give up!

Something happened today. Recently H has been saying he needs to go to the store, and then going and remaining gone for longer than it takes. Plus him even volunteering to go to the big store, making a special trip out for it, seemed unusual. We got iPhones a month ago, and it just occurred to me last night that this means I can use "find my iPhone". He just so happened to decide to "go to the store" today as well. I tracked him. Not surprised where he went. Not sure if there's another girl or not, but it seems he's smoking marijuana again - and hiding it from me. Lying. He went to the spot he used to buy from, or near there. Stayed for a long while. Then stopped at the big store on the way home. He is a lying liar liar with pants on fire! No wonder. Short tempered again, uninterested in physical intimacy again.

Well, this is who he is. Guess that's what this means, and that's all. Not taking it personally. Could this be detachment? I think this started on April 20th - no surprise. Said he'd be going to the store and was gone for several hours. Claimed he'd taken a long walk all over. I wondered if he'd relapsed, or if he was out with a girl. I confirmed one of those at least now. Trust your instincts!

He graduates next week, and then we go to Disneyland and see his sister, and visit his mother's grave. Rough time for him, I get it. Excuse to lie to me? No, no I don't think so. But that's part of who he is. ETA: But maybe he'll change. He's acting like Sir Lies-a-Lot right now, but maybe he'll strive for being King Authentic someday. I don't think I should make judgements about whether or not he'll change, even though I'm hurt. I think saying "this is who he is" was too harsh. This is his journey, he's going to grow at his own pace. I need to focus on what I'm doing instead and be a responsible good person and not become an ugly person ruled by negative feelings.

Still very depressed, but it really doesn't depend on him anymore. More like knowing he won't be able to support me struggling to get well… But he's not a cause of my depression. No one should have that much power. Just going to focus on that right now until I get well again.

(((hugs to all the madhatters)))

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:53 AM, May 18th (Sunday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

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Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, May 18th (Sunday)

Thanks everyone! I came to this site as a WW and that's essentially what I identify as. So he will be 'husband' here and BH everywhere else.

It took the mods on here giving me MH status to allow myself permission to feel those feelings from years ago. I have to process and heal, husband's remorse at this point makes little difference. I know I'll be alright whether he's supportive or not.
I'm still struggling with feeling selfish about this, husband is hurting because of me so that should be my focus and my priority. I have to keep reminding myself that I can't fix his shit for him, the besr way I can help him right now is to heal myself.

Obviously, none of my healing from that interferes with my remorse about my own A. Husband is the father of my children, I want him to be happy and healed no matter what the outcome of our M. So if I can support him then I will, just no longer to the point of sacrificing myself or ignoring my own feelings.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 2:51 AM, May 18th (Sunday)

Hi SH,

Thanks for the support :)

I'm so sorry about your discovery. I've been through similar with my husband years ago, secrecy surrounding drug use is awful. I think your attitude towards it is a very healthy one. Focus on you and what you need to do.

Are you going to speak to him about it? I would imagine that having him lie to you about where he's going will be very difficult now you know the truth, no matter how detached you might feel.

(((((Silverhopes))))))


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 3:44 AM, May 18th (Sunday)

ugh!
I just want to scream right now! I randomly decided to download an app on his phone that he hasn't had in months (I remember when and why he deleted it) and when I log into the app I find sexual convoys with a woman from august..... ok that wouldn't have bothered me TOO bad as I can clearly see the convo did not continue but I am an extremely self conscious person... something I've been working on in IC. and in reading this convo with this woman he becomes very graphic in explaining to her how he wants her more than me (specific body parts of hers) and then sent her pictures of me and him being intimate together...... telling her that he wishes it was her and not me and how she would look better in the uniform (one of the pics was inhisnpolice uniform that I took for him).
He of course now says he didnt mean any of it.... but how do I get by this and believe him on not to mention not let it further ruin my self worth.... I guess I just dont get that part... when I had my A I truthfully did not talk bad about H to my AP. Never said I wanted him more or anything....we actually talked alot about how great of a person my H was. I was the horrible person amd I knew it even then. So I guess the concept of talking trash about your B.S. just doesnt click with me. Can anyone please help me out?

Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, May 18th (Sunday)

((((HBO))))

Oh that is fantastically shit! I'm so, so sorry.
Not only a very obvious display of wayward behaviour, a return of old unhealthy coping mechanism and lies of omission but a complete violation of your privacy. He showed her pictures of you??! What the actual fuck?? I'm furious for you!!!

How are you doing at the moment? I have no advice, I've never had to deal with anything like that. Hopefully someone will be along with some words of wisdom very soon.

Hope you're ok, sending lots of strength.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 12:30 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 4:55 PM, May 18th (Sunday)

He showed her pictures of you??! What the actual fuck?? I'm furious for you!!!

My thoughts exactly. I told him not only did he violate my privacy and my trust but he put me in danger....what if this woman was psycho and decided she wanted to stalk me or kill me....here I am out in town with my 3 year old and I've got some psycho bitch stalking me and knows what I look like and I'm clueless. Yes I watch too many lifetime movies lol but this shit happens.

Im tired today. Didnt get any sleep last night. And had to take care of the three year old. He offered. But it would be my luck that he got no sleep and then went to work tonight and got in a wreck and died or killed someone from lack of sleep (he works midnights) and im like i told him we cant fix our marriage if hes deas or in jail.


Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, May 19th (Monday)

When asked why he sent her pictures of me his response was that she had expressed an interest in females and he knew it was the closest he would get to a threesome. Well thanks jackass.....you showed some girl pictures of me to get off on without my knowing and permission. You for all intensive purposes allowed someone to cyber rape me.... OH MY FUCKING GOD! Ugh....sorry guys I've got alot of anger over that part of the situation.

Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, May 19th (Monday)

Is he comprehending the depth of what you are feeling about this? If not, you two need to get into counseling like ASAP. Hugs, this is not going to be easy for you, I am so sorry he did this.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, May 19th (Monday)

He claims he understands but idk. I was already in IC and made a call to her first thing this morning to see if she does MC as well ofn if she can recommend someone who does. Hoping she gets back to me sometime today.

Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, May 19th (Monday)

So sorry, HBO. That is so beyond wrong that he did that. He says he understands? Is he remotely sorry for doing something so despicable? I'm sorry, that is just appalling. How are you doing today?

How are you doing today, BBT?

Are you going to speak to him about it? I would imagine that having him lie to you about where he's going will be very difficult now you know the truth, no matter how detached you might feel.

It is strangely easy for me not to say anything. He "taught" me what would happen if I confronted him about his lies when we had struggles over porn three years ago. If I question him, it won't go well for me, and it creates even more secrecy and exclusion on his part. Just knowing what he's really up to is enough for me. It sucks not being able to talk about it with him. It sucks realizing just how alone I really am when we're together. It shouldn't be that way.

Reconsidering being detached. I want to be a good wife. Still want to. Just not sure how when nothing I do for him really matters. I wish I knew how to put him at ease.

ETA: Three years ago not two, sorry

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:28 PM, May 19th (Monday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)

HBO my concern is that he didn't tell you about this. You discovered it yourself, so he's been keeping it from you for near enough a year.
I think that needs to be discussed too.

I'm ok thanks SH. Had such a nice weekend, whole day in the garden with the boys playing football and having water fights on Sunday. Then on Sunday we went to the beach which was lovely although I'm a bit pink now!
H is laying it on thick with the affection, being really flirty with me, lots of holding hands and hugging me.

I'm not going to lie, it's nice. We've talked a lot about triggers and about the mind movies he gets when we're intimate. Really productive conversations, he talked about what actually happens when he triggers and what he thinks about when he gets mind movies (he's never shared that with me before) he talked about his feelings and what he was worried about. I listened, validated and offered support in the form of advice I'd read here on SI.
He starts IC next week which is great and I think will help him a lot, he's been completely resistant to it in the past so it's a big step.

I'm still just watching and listening, making sure I look after myself.

I've read your profile SH but not familiar with the whole story. So if you spoke to him about it, he would just take it under ground and lie even more?
I can understand that with drug use. My H uses very, very occasionally too and I've been through so much stress with it in the past that I'm honestly past caring about it as long as it's not hidden from me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Hisbunnyonly
Member
Member # 38414
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)

Is he remotely sorry for doing something so despicable? I'm sorry, that is just appalling. How are you doing today?

he says he is. i suppose it's too soon for me to truly know if there is remorse for saying such things and sending the pictures, or if it's just i'm sorry that you found out i did those things....last night i had a breakdown b/c i changed clothes in the bathroom instead of in our bedroom as ususal, and he asked me why i wouldn't change clothes in front of him, i had to explain to him that i feel absolutly dirty. i feel violated. and in my words as if i was "cyber raped" and not only did he allow it but he participated in and encouraged it....i honestly think when i worded it that way it hit him a little more just how horrible this is. he said that at the time he was doing it he wasn't thinking and was just so angry at me for my A that he just did it, he didn't realize the true magnitude of those actions, and at the time didn't think it was as bad as what i had done and didn't think of what could have been or still could be the consequences. i mean the fact remains that some person ( it was only ever cyber so hell how do i even know if it was REALLY a woman) has pictures of me, and is doing and can do god knows what with them, and there is nothing i can do about it. this person, got their jolly's off of very personal pictures of me....and even told him in their convo how many times she "got off" to the pictures of me..... ughhh just typing it just gives me the heebie jeebies. i took his phone and deleted every personal picture he had of me. he now has face shots only. which would still infuriate me for him to send to any other women, BUT at least face shots couldn't potentially ruin my life.... sigh. i never thought that i would be in THIS situation.... i watch alot of dr phil...and have watched him warn people against pictures like that and the position they were putting themselves in.... i never thought that by sharing those intimate moments with my H that i would be putting myself in the same boat. I had a fear that he would betray me and have a RA but never in this capacity.

HBO my concern is that he didn't tell you about this. You discovered it yourself, so he's been keeping it from you for near enough a year.
I think that needs to be discussed too.

oh yes it's definitly being discussed as well. I found 3 months ago an app called KIK that he had been having sexual convo's with women on back in august (thank God none of those included pictures of me, that i saw, and i believe i saw all the convo's, they didn't appear to have missing pieces that had been deleted) at that time he had already deleted the other app (voxer) and i remember he deleted it in september b/c a guy he had arrested had gotten ahold of his info and wouldn't stop harassing him. so anyways, i knew that he had convo's back in august with 3 women b/c i found them, but i did not think at the time to redownload voxer and check it...it only hit me a couple of nights ago that i had not done that and thats when i found this stuff. he claims that he forgot about her and the convo b/c it only carried on for a few days and "meant nothing" to him, i just can't believe not remembering that you sent pictures of your wife out to someone....i can still to this day name every person in my life that i've sent pictures like that to, and you are telling me you can't remember doing it 9 months ago??


Posts: 75 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: TN
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)

BBT,

H is laying it on thick with the affection, being really flirty with me, lots of holding hands and hugging me.

I'm not going to lie, it's nice.

How do you feel about the fact that your H became like this only when you pulled back and started detaching, not when you were wanting him and needing him?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:55 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Yeah it sucks.

My IC identified that H and I have a 'pursuer/distncer' relationship dynamic. I am constantly chasing him, he is constantly running away.

She has kept reminding me that I need to stop chasing him. I initiate all conversation, all intimacy, all physical touch. I never leave him room to do it because I do it for him. If I stop chasing him, he'll have room to move towards me.

I've been making some pretty big plans the last few days that I'm quite excited about. My youngest starts nursery in January which will give me three full days a week to do voluntary work. Then when he starts school 18 months later I'm going back to school to do my social work degree. The UK is brilliant with this sort of stuff, I get all kinds of funding and help with living costs.

No matter what happens with H, the boys and I will be just fine. I am, for the first time in a long time, realising that I make myself happy. Sure, other people add to my happiness but ultimately, I am responsible for my own life and my own feelings. My sole purpose in life is not to be the person that worries about H, I can do anything I want!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:58 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Plus, the boys and I are going on holiday next week down to the Isle of Wight to stay with my dad who lives there. We go every year and always have a brilliant time. My sister is coming with us too, I'm very close with her and she's the boys 'fun aunt'. So we're all really excited!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I think that this is really good that you are being able to step back and see some of these things and starting to see some of the patterns that are present in your relationship. The next step is stopping them as they are happening. That is harder, lol. And I have found that it gets easier as you get healthier.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
What?  Posted: 9:36 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I'm hoping to get some advice here in this thread. I broke my vows with my H 12.5 years ago, had an EA that became PA, then back to EA, which ended 10+ years ago. Today, my husband has been engaged in an EA for 2 months and three days and is unremorseful. I immediately ended my relationshit when discovered, so I am crushed by this.

I am doing 180 with my H and he is sleeping in another room. I haven't had contact with him since Monday night.

We are supposed to go to MC tomorrow, but H isn't sure he wants to do the CS work to hammer out the details around that because he is angry that I outed OW to her boyfriend and he ended their relationship. In the same conversation where he told me that, he learned that there was more to my infidelity than just EA. So I'm thinking we're going to have to go through that stuff tomorrow too.

If he is no longer willing to do the CS, is it even worth it to give him the full transparency and honesty? I feel genuinely remorseful and I'm not afraid to be honest, but how do I protect myself from the current abuse he's heaping on me simultaneously?

He only had his first IC session yesterday. It's gonna be such a long road for him, but I know I have to focus on my own needs. At this time, I believe I need to file, because I can't do R all by myself.

Also, I'm so sad, because we are scheduled to go on a second (really, first) honeymoon in 6 weeks. I want to go on the trip, even if we're not married. And I want to go together.

Please, any advice, or just ramblings would be ok too. I just want people to talk to.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

So you never told him that your A went PA?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

No, I did not. Because he was not ready to go there, and he just swept everything under the rug. I did not know how to be properly remorseful, so I just ended the A, told myself I wouldn't burden him with more pain just to assuage my guilt, and set about spending the next 10 years working on being a better W. Unfortunately, our codependency was never addressed. I let him continue to not seek counseling, trying to fix it all myself. I also just realized I probably permanently put myself in the Giver role out of guilt, and he got so good at being the Taker that now he's unremorseful in this EA.

Karma's a bitch.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

So what are your thoughts about being completely honest now and letting go of the outcome? Don't you feel that it is about time for you to be completely authentic in this relationship? What he chooses to do or not do is not in your control.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

No, I did not. Because he was not ready to go the
re

do you see that you are making decisions for him and how harmful, unnecessary and manipulative this is?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Of course I see that. I was selfish and horrible. I am genuinely remorseful. That's why when I met with our MC individually yesterday I told her I would be willing to lay that all out there. Just as I deserve to have all the information to make an informed decision, and OW's XBF deserved all the information, so too does my H.

I will be completely honest with you, and tell you that I am a little bit scared of letting go of the outcome. But since I don't really have a choice since I don't really have control of the outcome, I am choosing to behave like the kind of person I want to be. That includes doing hard things that make me look bad and put my feelings at risk. I put myself in this position 12.5 years ago with my stupid choices.

Thank you for reminding me to be authentic.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

But still my question remains, how do I protect myself from this current abuse that I am receiving from my H?


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am glad to see that this is the choice that you are going to make. It is really the only way that you can go forward and have a truly authentic relationship with your H on your end. He has to decide if he is going to do it on his. Should he decide not to, then you can make a decision on your end to not stay in the relationship. But you will know that you have done your part to be honest and real.

Being in a madhatter M is not easy and it lengthens the healing time by quite a bit, that is my opinion. Can it still happen, yes. But it takes a lot of work, a lot of patience and a willingness to not hold up what the other partner did all the time. Only you know if you have it in you to go forward. We are here for you to talk to, as this situation is different from others.

I wish you the best in going forward with being honest with your H.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am choosing to behave like the kind of person I want to be.

this is good!

and regarding your relationship now - you have a right to have boundaries. Dont' think that because you did this first that it's ok for your husband to have an affair too.

Put boundaries in place, tell him what you need, and stick to them! He is not owed an affair.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am choosing to behave like the kind of person I want to be.

this is good!

and regarding your relationship now - you have a right to have boundaries. Dont' think that because you did this first that it's ok for your husband to have an affair too.

Put boundaries in place, tell him what you need, and stick to them! He is not owed an affair.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I have no idea why this posted so many times. Sorry!

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:46 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I sure would like to know how to proceed from here. He doesn't want D, I don't want D. We're separated in-home, and to my knowledge, he has not ended contact. He wants to do it face-to-face (insanity, I know) and I think he was planning to have her come to town Friday and tell her that he is going off-grid for a month while he and I do IC and MC. I need to tell him tomorrow that I won't be married to a man with a girlfriend. I want so badly to be able to work this out. I am willing to be separated for a very long time while we do IC and MC.

But assuming he does agree to NC, how do we reach out to one another a little bit and have safe interactions? Or do we just not do that for now? How do we know when the time has come to do that?


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Frustrated  Posted: 11:22 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Anyone have any ideas? I have to leave for IC in a couple of hours and I would like to know what my best use of my time will be for this session.

I am not able to get any work done and I haven't even fed myself or my cats yet today.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, June 1st (Sunday)

He talked to me for several hours Friday night (after DDay2 Thursday), and really lashed out at me. I was so remorseful I sat there and took it. And because I had been telling a few people that I thought I might kill myself, he had me stay with a friend that night, and then another friend yesterday. She asked if I would text H and ask him to change the combination on our gun safe, so I gave her the phone and let her do it, then gave him her contact info and they traded a few texts.

I spoke with H a little last night, and he loves me very much, so I am doing whatever they ask me to around suicide prevention, because I know how important I am to him and how much it would hurt him if I killed myself.

I felt so sorry that I was dragging him back into this when he's supposed to be off dealing with his own pain. I just don't seem to be able to control my own pain from the fear of losing him very much.

He still says that if I mean "being married to him" is what I'm afraid of losing then that is a "distinct possibility", but for now he seems to still be sleeping under this roof. He's going to continue his IC and will take MC one appointment to the next.

I know I'm holding on to hope in vain, but I won't have to die for now like this.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, June 1st (Sunday)

Do you have any plans to start exploring in IC why this M is more important to you than your own life?

Being a madhatter it is difficult when we have both the pain of being a BS and a WS going on at the same time. It is important that you learn to start sorting out and dealing with your pain on each level. It can start to feel like it is going to swallow you up if you sit with it for too long. Make sure you have a good IC.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, June 1st (Sunday)

NoDoormat, you have some severe and dangerous depression going on. You need help. I have been there. I have felt the frustration in my psychologist's voice as she tried to talk me through it. Ultimately I ended up having to seek the help of a licensed psychiatrist and get medication. It was probably the only thing that saved my life at the time. I tried talk therapy, talking to friends, reading ("Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns is a great book and I did get a lot of tools out of it, by the way), drinking my way to the bottom of countless bottles of liquor, redirecting my rage to my wife's AP and having to be talked out of murdering him multiple times, joining a suicide forum, etc. Really the only thing that ultimately worked *for me* was psychiatric help.

Most importantly, the only person that can really save you is you. There are countless people here genuinely worried and concerned for you here.

Please seek and find the help that you need and deserve.

You might come out the other side of things and surprise the hell out of yourself with the realization of how beautiful and rewarding life can really be when you are not fighting that constant depression. It really can get better and more beautiful. I swear this to be true!

(((NoDoormat)))


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
redwall77
New Member
Member # 41261
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, June 4th (Wednesday)

I have been lurking around this sight for months now off and on. My fiance has been on here for alot longer he is here religiously. I have Made numerous attempts to post and have chickened out everytime. I have come to the point now in my life and in my relationship that I need to do something to help me heal from my fiancé ' s infidelity and to find out why I thought it was ok for me to have one years later. I have questions tons of them that I don't think I deserve simply because I didn't want to face them when I found out about his. I made the decision to forgive and forget and I actually thought I could do that. But look at me know I am a member of a SI family and I'm posting on a mad hatters page. Never thought I would find myself here. I need help understanding things I don't know what I'm doing wrong I feel like a disappointment to my F everytime we sit and talk about my A. I feel like I'm being blamed at times. I have told him lies about my A from the very beginning. There where a lot of TT and minimizing also. I have fixed all the lies and TT but is it too late? Have I completely f***ed my relationship and the possible chance of reconciliation? I know I have never forgave him for his A and we never talked about it I chose not to and of course he climbed on board with that decision. I made that mistake and now I don't know how to give him what he needs. I need help, I need advice, I need just a little glimpse of hope if there is any.


ME-36
HIM-57
M-11 YEARS
KIDS- 7,7,12,13
DDAY-10*8*13
* I'm afraid to tell people how I feel because it will destroy them. so I bury it deep inside myself where it destroys me.

Posts: 9 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: redwall77
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, June 6th (Friday)

Welcome Redwall. Are you in counseling?


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
redwall77
New Member
Member # 41261
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, June 6th (Friday)

Thank you for the welcome. As for your question no i am not in counseling although I should be. And I want to be. I have other things besides infidelity that needs to be worked on I am also a survivor of CSA.


ME-36
HIM-57
M-11 YEARS
KIDS- 7,7,12,13
DDAY-10*8*13
* I'm afraid to tell people how I feel because it will destroy them. so I bury it deep inside myself where it destroys me.

Posts: 9 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: redwall77
JaneDeaux
Member
Member # 42630
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, June 6th (Friday)

Yes counseling is so helpful. It's hard but fixing yourself is so important. Especially in the crazy world of a MadHatter. You've come to a great place for support.


We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey. Kenji Miyazawa

Posts: 76 | Registered: Mar 2014
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, June 6th (Friday)

Hello and welcome, redwall!

I agree with JaneDeaux on the counseling. My wife and I pretty much concentrated on our own IC's more than anything else, and that seemed to be the best plan of attack for us. We both had long standing individual issues that we needed to work on outside of our relationship and infidelity as well.

Best of luck. I am glad to see you posting here.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, June 6th (Friday)

redwall: there is hope. a LOT of it. But first, you must be willing to stare yourself in the face. Look at the person you are, define what you value, get some clarity about the kind of person you want to be. In other words - work on you first. Then, you need to look at what he did and how/why you reacted the way you did.

get into IC. There is also a sexual abuse thread in the I Can Relate forum on this website. That may be a place to get some understanding as well.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, June 9th (Monday)

Just wondering how you guys handle discussions about the A's?

H and I thought it would be best to schedule talks that specifically centred on one of our A's. So discuss one at a time, that way we're only focused on one person's feelings.

Anyone else do it a similar way? Or got a better suggestion?


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 9:28 PM, June 9th (Monday)

BBT - We didn't really have any organized schedule or plan. We did and do tend to talk about the A's one at a time. Part of that stems from our fair fight/fair discussion agreement, where we keep our arguments and discussions to one topic at a time so things don't get "stacked" or "snowballed".

Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:02 PM, June 9th (Monday)

We also try to keep it like Losfer and his wife are doing. Keep it to one at at time.

For instance, if HL is telling me about something that has triggered or is bother him, I don't talk to him about something that is bothering me as well. I will wait until another time.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:29 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Until recently, H has been very defensive about his A and wayward behaviour. I've found it difficult to talk about how I feel because he just gets angry and then he will bring up my A.

Good to know that tackling one at a time works for other people.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

BBT,

Is he talking to you now about his A?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

it works but its very difficult. When they say "do you know what it's like when you did _____?" and you do but you bite your lip because this is about them being heard.

We struggle with it. I will bring something up and suddenly we're talking about him. When he brings something up I try really hard to just listen and not talk about my own situation.

Also, I want to suggest, fix, do something that worked for me and that's another thing that's hard to keep quiet about. Our journeys are different, our healing is different.

2.5 years out, its time to watch actions. If he hasn't figured it out by now he probably won't. However, this has given me peace.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Yes, TG. One conversation at a time, tiny baby steps but things are getting better. He has really pulled his finger out!

He's by no means perfect but he's trying, I can see it.

Rachel, I can really relate to you wanting to suggest things to fix and heal. I'm Co-D so it's hardwired into me! I'm doing well in stepping back though and it's done us both the world of good.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tagalong
Member
Member # 41770
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, June 14th (Saturday)

Are you a MH if you were only a BS in your marriage and are now an AP in someone else's?


living together separately, preparing for divorce

my WS is 7 years older
we have been together 21 years
DDay for last known EA: December 15, 2013
WS had prior known short EA with a kiss years before
WS exhibiting textbook mid-life crisis behaviors,


Posts: 65 | Registered: Dec 2013
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, June 15th (Sunday)

Tagalong,

A madhatter is someone who is a betrayed spouse and a wayward spouse in their current marriage.

The marital status of your AP has nothing to do with whether you're a madhatter.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tagalong
Member
Member # 41770
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, June 15th (Sunday)

Thanks!


living together separately, preparing for divorce

my WS is 7 years older
we have been together 21 years
DDay for last known EA: December 15, 2013
WS had prior known short EA with a kiss years before
WS exhibiting textbook mid-life crisis behaviors,


Posts: 65 | Registered: Dec 2013
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, June 16th (Monday)

*sigh*

Awful, awful weekend. This is going to be long.

We went down to stay with family this weekend. We stayed with H's family Saturday (none of them know anything) we went out with all the kids, had a BBQ in the afternoon which was all fine, really fun. In the evening we went out with H's sister and her husband to a charity event and to watch the England world cup game (we lost - shocker! ) H got very drunk. First time I've been with him while he's been drinking since his Dday.

During half time I was talking to one of my sister in law's friends (we'll call her Laura) and Laura's husband, they are expecting a baby in two weeks and we were discussing baby names. It was a funny conversation, Laura and I were laughing a lot.

H triggered. Talking to people I didn't know, getting to know them, letting them see my personality and them laughing at my jokes all made him think of AP, him getting to know me, thinking I was funny, cute etc and falling in 'love' with me.

After about five minutes I turned round and joined in with the conversation H was having with some other people. I could tell he had triggered so I took his hand and whispered that I could see he was hurting and if there was anything I could do just let me know. He insisted he was fine but he struggled for the remainder of evening. I stayed close to him, lots of physical contact (his LL is physical touch) and trying to make him feel as safe as possible.

The next day was no better. We left H's sister's house and went to visit my mum for lunch. My mum knows so at least he didn't have to 'pretend' around her, he was distant and just played with the kids in the garden.
On the drive home the kids fell asleep and we had a chance to talk.

H was saying he is sick of feeling like this. He wants to feel better. There's nothing I can do to help him (I already know I can't fix it for him and I don't try to, I just offer support) it's been six months and he feels hopeless.

He is depressed, won't go to the doctor. The funding for his counselling has come through, he won't book an appointment.

I have tried validating his feelings, reassuring him it's all normal. It just makes him more depressed because he doesn't want to feel like this anymore and the five year timeline feels like an eternity.
I've explained that recovery is not linear, he will have bad days and set backs, a lapse/relapse isn't the same as a total collapse. I've also reminded him of how far he has come in the last six months, how much healing he has already done. He rarely gets mind movies or images and has a very effective coping mechanism in place if they do occur. He has taken very positive steps on feeling better about himself, lots of exercise, going to the gym and working out. He has good friends who he can rely on if he's in a bad place.

I've also gave a bit if tough love. I created this situation, handed him the shit sandwich but I cannot help him eat it. I cannot heal him, I cannot fix it for him. He has to do that himself, I will support him absolutely, without wavering, be there for him. But I cannot do it for him, nor will I try to (like I would have done in the past) because our co-D dynamic isn't healthy so I refuse to be caught in the cycle. He's definitely angry about that, the unfairness of it all. I apologised for it but he loathes apologies so that just made it worse.

I don't think it's a LPOF, he's not numb. But he says he feels hopeless and like things will never be different. I can relate to that, I've been depressed before so I know how that feels.
I feel for him, it's a horrible place to be in.

To make it worse, I triggered too. On the way to my mum's house we drove past the place he took OW#1 on a date. First time we've been in the area since I stopped rugsweeping my feelings about his A. I'm proud of myself for how I handled it. I have a thought process, like self soothing steps I do in my head to stop me going to the 'bad place'. I thought about why it was upsetting but didn't allow the feelings to overwhelm me. I thought very logically about whether there was any reason to feel threatened or anxious at that moment and calmed myself down.

H didn't even notice. I don't blame him, he was wrapped up in his own trigger which was on going from the night before. I don't really need him to comfort me or reassure me (huge step for me) but a squeeze of my hand would have been nice. Just some sort of acknowledgement, you know?

This sucks.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, June 16th (Monday)

BBT - Wow, that does sound like a brutal weekend! I don't really have any words of advice, since it sounds like you are doing everything that you can.

I think a big positive is you staying calm, and trying to talk through this logically and reasonable. One either or both of you are triggering, it can be really easy to get past that tipping point of things breaking down.

Hang in there, and continue to work on yourself. I wish there would be a way to convince your H to seek some of the help that it sounds like he needs, but I know he needs to take those steps and make those decisions for himself. Maybe continued gentle encouragement in that area?

Sorry to hear about the rough weekend. I'm hoping this is a dip in the roller coaster, and you both will have some easier and better moments in the near future.

Hang in there, and take care.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 3:47 PM, June 16th (Monday)]


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, June 16th (Monday)

Thanks Losfer :)

I think a big positive is you staying calm, and trying to talk through this logically and reasonable.

And there's the rub.
Before my A I was the irrational, hysterical, crazy drama queen constantly chasing H, obsessing over our M and trying to fix things. Now, I'm calm and logical and rational and healing. He hates that, with very good reason.

I think he knows he has to heal himself and he's approaching the point where he's ready to start. I really don't want to leave him behind.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, June 16th (Monday)

Before my A I was the irrational, hysterical, crazy drama queen constantly chasing H, obsessing over our M and trying to fix things. Now, I'm calm and logical and rational and healing. He hates that, with very good reason.

This was the same dynamic that was happening in my M with HL. Hl referred to it as me stepping off the dance floor. Not only did I stop doing those things but I refused to get pulled into our same old argument patterns, man did that piss him off. He no longer knew how to react. I don't know that your H thinks that he has to get healthy so much as he can't figure out why the dynamic has shifted. He knows something is very different, he doesn't know why. Keep going, you are doing great!!


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:07 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)

That analogy me laugh, TG! Yep, it's like I've stepped off the dance floor and H has realised he's dancing by himself. He's doesn't really know what to do with himself now. It's awkward and unfamiliar for him.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
butterfly1384
New Member
Member # 43743
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, June 17th (Tuesday)

Hello everyone!
I am new to this thread so I will just begin by telling my story and see if there's anyone that's had a similar situation and can give me some advice and support.
Four years ago I cheated on my husband. I told him about the A immediately and never contacted the AP ever again. It happened one time and nothing after that or before that. I let my XH decide on if he wanted to reconcile or not and he did. So we went to MC for quite awhile and then had our youngest daughter. We have 3 daughters together. On 10/27/2014 my XH came home and said he didn't love me anymore and wanted a divorce. Our divorce became final on 4/28/2014. On Mother's Day weekend I found out my XH introduced his "girlfriend" to our children and her and her 4 children spent the weekend with them. Soon after that, I found out she was pregnant...and about a week later him and her were married...on 5/19/14 to be exact. Their baby is due in September. So as you can probably guess by now, he'd been having an A with her the entire time and lied about it to me and our children.
Now he's trying to justify his A by bringing up mine. Is there even a comparison?

Posts: 9 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: Minnesota
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, June 17th (Tuesday)

Hi Butterfly, happy to see you've found this thread but still sorry to see you here.

His A had NOTHING to do with your A or you. The excuses he is using are just that... excuses. It's down to his bad coping mechanisms, his own brokenness, his issues.

Please don't get into discussions with him comparing your affairs and your pain, neither of you can win that argument and it's not good for either of you.

What you need to do now is the 180, focus on you and your own healing. Take legal steps to ensure your children are safe emotionally and physically while visiting their father. Go no contact with him unless it's about the children. Be strong.

What do you want now? Are you happy with the divorce or would you like to reconcile?


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
butterfly1384
New Member
Member # 43743
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, June 17th (Tuesday)

Thanks for the response, BBT. I may have considered reconciling before I found out about the A but he has now married the OW and they are expecting a baby. Don't really see any reconciliation a possibility and not sure I would want to...would cause more problems b/c there are so many issues we can't deal with together unless we deal with them separately and he's not willing to do that. I am in IC and he is supposed to be per court order and we are supposed to be in JC but he has refused.

I would like our relationship to be civil for the sake of our children but I don't see that becoming a possibility as long as the OW is now his wife. There are too many negative things I know about her and I am concerned about the safety emotionally and physically of my children when they are in their home. But not sure how to go about getting that changed. Didn't find out about the A until after our D was final so he manipulated me in Court to get what he wanted.


Posts: 9 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: Minnesota
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:27 AM, June 20th (Friday)

Blameshifting son of a bitch

I think I'm probably done.

He brought up his drug use last night, saying it was something I'm still angry about and he doesn't ever want to have another conversation about it.

I explained that I wasn't angry about it at all. He says he doesn't want to do it anymore and I believe that he believes that and that's enough for me. I don't need to talk about it, I'm perfectly capable of processing my feelings about it by myself.

He became angry. Said it was years ago and asked why I would still need to process my feelings about it.
I gently reminded him that it wasn't years ago, he used again in November last year and I only found out about it in March this year as well as finding out about the other time he used in 2012 which he also hid from me.

He said he was angry in November, he knew about my A even though I hadn't confessed at that point (he was in denial) so it was my fault he relaped and used again.

Yeah... I forced him to shovel three grams of coke up his nose and risk his career. My fault entirely.

I didn't say anything other than I was sorry for hurting him. I've been holding onto the hope that he can't see his own issues right now because he's hurting from my A. But sometimes I get the distinct feeling he actually believes I make him do these things and he has no choice.

The drugs are not the dealbreaker. Hell, his A's aren't even the dealbreaker. It's blaming me for them that's the dealbreaker.

I'm quietly done. Detach. Detach. Detach.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 5:06 AM, June 20th (Friday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, June 20th (Friday)

It's blaming me for them that's the dealbreaker.

and this is the crux of being a MH. IF we each can't take complete 100% responsibility for our actions it just won't work, IMO..

((BBT))


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, June 20th (Friday)

I'm torn between giving him more time because he's only six months out from Dday, I realise he's so devastated he can't focus on anything besides his own pain right now. But knowing in the back of my mind that he never took responsibility for his behaviour before his Dday (the drugs or his A) so I find it hard to believe that he would do it in the future.

I think I was the most blamshifty wayward alive so if I can change, it's got to be possible for him, right?

He has been trying in recent weeks but that happened after I started detaching and stepped out of our co-D dynamic. But last night revealed that he was probably just hoovering.

I'm so conflicted right now!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, June 20th (Friday)

Hey, BBT - I'm sorry to hear you are hurting and frustrated right now. I think your hurt and frustration is valid, and I'm glad you came here to talk about it.

I think I was the most blamshifty wayward alive so if I can change, it's got to be possible for him, right?

Absolutely. I think just about anybody can change if they are willing to take ownership and put in the hard work.

The whole blame shifting thing needs to stop. I think you might have to be firm with him on this one. You cannot take ownership of any of his choices or actions, past, present, and future. He is his own living, breathing, autonomous human being with a free will of his own. Yes, he was gravely hurt by your actions. How he chose to deal with that is his choice. I'm willing to bet drugs were a coping mechanism long before infidelity was an issue? Maybe before you two even met?

Let him know you are there to support him, but you can't take on ownership of what he decides to do. If you had that kind of power over him, I bet you would choose for him not to take that coke or be anywhere near it in the first place.

Hang in there, and keep talking with him.

Are you still having some good moments as a couple, too? I think it is important to take some time out and enjoy a nice walk or a nice meal together, too. I'm still rooting for you two.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, June 20th (Friday)

Yes, drugs were his coping mechanism long before he met me.

We are still having some nice moments. He came round earlier and needed a cuddle, then he cooked me dinner. I did bring up the blameshifting thing, he didn't say much.

He's scared. Scared of my feelings, scared of his own feelings. He's scared to start healing so he denies that he needs to.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
butterfly1384
New Member
Member # 43743
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, June 24th (Tuesday)

BBT, blameshifting is all part of not wanting to deal with our own mistakes. I take on fully responsibility for my A and NEVER once blamed my X for it, but he continually blames his A on me saying if I hadn't had one then he wouldn't have either or that living with me was so horrible it's what he had to do. He also blamed me for his gambling and drinking and smoking. He said they were a diversion to escape from being at home and an outlet. Blameshifting!!!!!

Posts: 9 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: Minnesota
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:15 PM, June 24th (Tuesday)

if I hadn't had one then he wouldn't have either

I get this too. Although not recently. It's a very convenient way of letting themselves off the hook.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, June 25th (Wednesday)

Ok, so I had IC yesterday. Not been for awhile because C was away on courses. We really talked things out and she gave me some 2x4's.

So here's what we worked out.

We are six months and two days out from Dday. H isn't in IC. He's not reading at all and he's not talking about anything unless I initiate the conversation and even then he doesn't say much.

BUT he's here at the house every day. He comes round, give the kids dinner, plays with them, gives them a bath, reads bed time stories and puts them to bed. Then he stays and has dinner with me and hangs out for a bit.

He doesn't want to be in this house. If I was him I probably wouldn't come within 100 yards of it. He can't live here but he wants to be with his family and the effort it takes to come here every day to do that is HUGE.

His anxiety was so severe in March that he had a panic attack resulting in convulsions while out with his friends. He has come up with his own coping strategies for that. He can talk himself down when he's feeling anxious and his anxiety in general is massively improved.

He has dealt with the mind movies using the CBT techniques he learned in the few MC sessions we attended immediately after Dday (we abandoned them because it was far too soon, MC then became my IC)
He used to get mind movies and flash backs hundreds of times a day, now he says he rarely gets them and he can make them stop when they do happen.

He IS healing. He's just doing it in his own way. It's not the SI way, in some ways it doesn't even look particularly healthy. But it works for him and that's what matters right?

He is depressed. He admits that but says he's not at a point where he feels he can do anything about it yet. It's not my job to fix it for him, at some point he will reach rock bottom and then the only way is up. All I can do is be patient and supportive.

My C said she was really impressed with how well I'm doing at working on my Co-D. It was a good session :)

H and I talked about the blameshifting again last night. He apologised and said he knows deep down his actions are not my fault. He said he goes into self preservation mode and gets defensive when those topics come up. He says it's magnified at the moment because he's so hurt and feels vulnerable.

I told him my feelings weren't going anywhere (like under a rug!) I really need to be heard and have some support with the triggers but I understand that it can take awhile to over come the defensiveness (it took me awhile too and I had SI to help!) so we'll try to work on it together.

H's birthday is coming up. H's step dad passed away the day before his birthday six years ago so it's always been a difficult day. Add in the fact H hasn't been at home on his birthday for four years (always been away with work) so he's never actually heard his kids wish him a happy birthday before. And then I rubbed salt in an already painful wound... A season starts three days after his birthday. It's going to be a difficult time.

We talked yesterday about how to handle it all. We discussed 'reclaiming' but H said he wants as much normality as possible. He doesn't want an actual celebration, he said just time with me and the boys is enough.
I have got him some amazing presents and the kids have made cards and we'll bake a cake the day before. Hopefully he'll like that.

I think we're both feeling calmer and better about things this week. It's been a good week so far.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

BBT,

I think you are doing an amazing job with your progress and recognizing the co dependent issues. The fact that you guys were able to talk about the upcoming birthday and come up with some sort of plan sounds like progress for the two of you. That is awesome!!! How are you feeling about that?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

Good! It felt productive and like we were working as a team.

I definitely feel more separate from him. My mood doesn't mirror his mood but I'm still able to empathise and offer comfort and support, more so than before really. It does still feel strange, like I'm fighting an instinct, but I can see how much healthier it is.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
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Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

I know exactly what you mean. When I started doing that it felt so weird, but good. Not normal at all because it was not how I had done things at all. Now it feels normal after a few years of doing it. You are doing really good


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, June 29th (Sunday)

Yesterday was all kinds of awesome! Three REALLY good conversations.

The first two involved some wayward friends of ours.

The first is a guy I have been friends with for eleven years. After Dday I started work on my boundaries and realised my friendship with this guy had blurry boundaries. Nothing like an EA but he would call me 'hun' or 'babe' or 'gorgeous', he was quite flirty and I allowed him to be. MrBBT had always said he didn't like this friend, not because he thought anything would happen because he could see I didn't reciprocate but just because he felt the guy didn't know where the line was and I wasn't prepared to put him in his place.
After Dday, I enforced the boundaries and the friend has so far respected them. Until yesterday! He called me for a catch up and told me about an EA/sexting relationship he'd been having with another woman. This guy is engaged, getting married next year!

Immediately a big red flag went up for me. The friend told me he had broken off the EA but had no plans to confess to his fiancé. I told him I didn't want wayward behaviour in my life in any way, shape or form. I said I was very uncomfortable in being made part of the lie. I told him not to contact me again and then blocked his number from my phone.

As soon as MrBBT came to the house I told him what had happened. He was annoyed at the behaviour, said it was awful but he was surprised at my reaction, said going NC seemed a little extreme. I explained it wasn't, this was a boundary breech for me and I won't tolerate it. I also understood how this would make MrBBT feel about the friendship with this guy and I wasn't about to disregard his feelings. MrBBT just smiled, gave me a cuddle and a big kiss.

Second is a mutual friend of ours. We'll call her M.
M was part of a group of our friends but then she moved out of the area. Recently a guy from this group of friends, we'll call him J, told MrBBT that M had been sending him explicit photos of herself on snapchat. M is married. J has a long term girlfriend who he lives with, he never responded to the photos that M sent him but he also hasn't told his girlfriend about it.

Following so far?!

MrBBT and I were discussing how to handle the situation because M is still pursuing a friendship with me and I wanted to talk about going NC. We agreed that NC with M was a good idea for both of us seeing as MrBBT is also friends with her. MrBBT decided he would have a chat with J about the importance of telling his girlfriend, boundaries etc but ultimately because J hadn't been unfaithful, he had only been presented with the opportunity to be and turned it down, it wasn't our place to tell J's girlfriend. We don't know M's husband so there's nothing we can do about that. We discussed everything, made a plan of action that protected our M and our personal boundaries

Third one was about this upcoming week. MrBBT is going away today with work until Friday. Not long but it will be the first time he's been away since Dday and my A happened while he was away last year. So last night I talked about what I could do this week to help him feel safer, give him peace of mind. His response was 'nothing that you aren't already doing. Just be as you are.'

It feels good to be on the same page about things.

Our next step is for me and the kids to move away from the army base. We're only be going a half hour drive but not being in this house will make so much difference. MrBBT will live in the single accommodation during the week and come to the new house at weekends and during leave. He is signing off from the army and will come to live with us permanently once his year's notice is up.

So next weekend we will be doing something for MrBBT's birthday (we're having a date night on Friday!) and then we'll be going to view houses!

I'm enjoying this 'up'.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 9:11 AM, June 29th (Sunday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, June 30th (Monday)

This is a really great update. Feels good to start enforcing those boundaries doesn't it?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, June 30th (Monday)

Really nice update, BBT. That sounds like some great progress. So happy to hear some positive things happening for you and your H.

Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, June 30th (Monday)

Thanks guys

Yeah the boundary thing feels great. I don't get out much (I really don't!) So it was felt good for me to put my work on boundaries into practice and realise I am capable and it was great to demonstrate to H how far I've come.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

This is gonna sound like a dumb question, but curious to hear others' thoughts:

Does anyone else ever feel really upset when someone says something nice about them? Ever want to scream: "Just hate me, give me instructions on how to not be a hurtful person, but don't compliment me! Compliments are standards I'll never be able to live up to!"

If you can relate, any insights on what it's about? Are we just so afraid of failing at higher standards that we keep our standards low for ourselves? Just the basic minimum: try not to hurt anyone else.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
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Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Hi Silver!

I don't think that's a dumb question at all. Very thought provoking, actually.

What types of compliments draw these reactions from you? (You don't have to answer this specifically or at all, because that is a hard one for me to answer myself.)

I don't have the exact same types of reactions that you have, but I honestly don't have the best history of processing compliments very well. For me, it is more just feeling nervous, uncomfortable, and awkward towards certain types of compliments or praise. I think for me that has a lot to do with an unfair and low self image of myself that probably borders on dysfunctional. It's like I get a compliment, and I externally and gratefully accept it with the person giving it to me, but then there is an internal self-bashing that goes on inside my head.

As far as not wanting to "hurt anyone else" is concerned, I can see that. I am horrified at hurting anyone else, to the point where I would rather self-sacrifice. Maybe that is where some of this reluctance to accept compliments comes from? I don't know. Great question. I'd like to hear some feedback from others as well.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:46 AM, July 4th (Friday)

It's like I get a compliment, and I externally and gratefully accept it with the person giving it to me, but then there is an internal self-bashing that goes on inside my head.

I am horrified at hurting anyone else, to the point where I would rather self-sacrifice.

Same here.

What types of compliments draw these reactions from you?

All of them. Another thought just came to mind: maybe it's paranoia about external validation and wanting to avoid it at all costs. But then… when we're trying to support someone, be it a family member or friend, then don't we usually give compliments? Some sort of acknowledgement to that person for everything they do? And why wouldn't they try to give acknowledgement to others as well (sometimes that means us)? But it's all screwed up! It's external validation! It's the precise thing we're NOT supposed to be looking for, as waywards who are trying to change for better!

Feel like I don't take enough responsibility sometimes for the pain I caused others. Like I deserve more consequences, more punishment. But when punishment happens, it tends to be the people I love who suffer. So I'm afraid of consequences because it means pain for them. I need consequences that only hurt me and no one else.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:48 AM, July 4th (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, July 5th (Saturday)

This is to both silver and losfer,

Do either of you still see yourselves as people that would hurt others willingly NOW?

If not, then you need to work on acceptance of the person that you are now, and understand that you are no longer the person that you were then. You have changed.

Compliments can still sometimes be difficult for me, especially ones based on my looks. I have poor self body image. Ones based on who I am are getting easier, because I am really accepting the person that I am NOW. I have worked hard to be where I am now. I don't see it as external validation but as a compliment.

My counselor has worked hard with me on this. I think this is where an IC comes in real handy. Writing down the things you like about yourself and then things you want to work towards can help.

Hope that helps guys, and hope you both had a great holiday!


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, July 5th (Saturday)

Do either of you still see yourselves as people that would hurt others willingly NOW?

Oh, absolutely not. That's where some of this stems from. When I cheated 18 years ago, I was young and full of myself, even though I didn't see that about myself back then. Now I really do care about my treatment of others. I just need to make sure I am taking care of myself, too.

You have changed.

Thank you! I absolutely have changed, especially in the last few years since joining this site and going to counseling and doing some deep digging.

My holiday yesterday was nice and peaceful. We all had a great day here in the Losfer household. Hope you and HL had a great day, too!!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
WaywardInHayward
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Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, July 7th (Monday)

Subject: Madhatter trying to find remorse... it's hard!!

My story is a long, winding road filled with all kinds of angst, but true love does exist here... it's just covered in all kinds of shitty past behaviors.

We met within the first few weeks of college, doing a musical together... yes, we're actors - there's your first clue to the drama that will ensue. :-)

I was a wide-eyed Christian boy, who'd never really had a real relationship, other than dating a few girls in high school for a few weeks max, never amounting to more than making out: no oral sex - not even heavy petting. I was still a virgin at 19... both proud and embarrassed by this fact, knowing I was coming out of a private school situation and going into the "lion's den" of public institution higher ed. I was nervous about this, knowing I'd been very cautious around women all my life, mostly because I was scared shitless of what sex would really be like, but wanting it SO badly at the same time. I'd been masturbating like mad since puberty, also believing this was "sinful" behavior for much of that time. My "ideal" first time, I thought, would be to find another virgin so that there would be no comparisons, and that it would be an exploratory experience and new discoveries for us both. So... plenty of self-generated and church-generated angst "going in" to my first experience.

She was a non-Christian girl, who acted more Christian than most believers. She was (and is) a gorgeous, tall, long-haired beauty, who treated everyone with respect, had a great sense of humor and was very disarming. She had that same look of wide-eyed innocence I did, and I fell hard. It took a while for me to work up the courage to actually make a move. We "hung out" a lot with others, as I watched to try to be sure she would respond in kind... I was very cautious with my heart. But she was exactly what I was looking for - that "ideal" virginal woman with whom I could discover our first time together.

We started dating, and moving very slowly toward getting more and more intimate together. At the time I had thought this cautiousness was two-way - that she was also nervous about her first time. A few months in, she reveals to me that she is not a virgin. My heart sank. How could I have been so wrong? I know it's ridiculous thinking now, but I truly felt I'd been cheated on. If I had waited for the ideal mate, why hadn't she? I was in emotional agony at this revelation, because she still was, in every other way, the "ideal" girl I was looking for. The closest person to me at the time was my mother and I confided in her my angst over this situation. She basically said "honey, at your age, you're not necessarily going to find your "ideal virgin" out there. If you truly love this girl and she loves you, should it really matter?" At first my naïve response to this was "YES! It matters!" but I wrestled in earnest with these thoughts for several weeks. It didn't help that I was seriously embarrassed to talk to my girlfriend (future wife) about any of these feelings, because I had felt so naïve originally having thought we were "the same" and had basically "equal experience" sexually. The thought that she would know exactly what we were in for during my first experience and could *compare* me to someone else, killed me, but I loved her and knew I had to get over it.

It also didn't help that in the next couple of weeks I very timidly asked her questions about her experience, and it came out that not only did he have a "very big" penis, but that she really did genuinely love him. It wasn't just a typical "god, I was so stupid" first time high school experience. It was a long-term, loving relationship. In hindsight, I'm not sure ANY story would have made me feel much better about it, but those facts were hard to swallow, knowing that was what she'd be comparing me against. I was an emotional mess, but with the help of my family's advice, I eventually pulled myself together and decided she was more than worth the silly angst I was putting myself through. I "forgave" her earlier "transgressions" with this other boy, who I had now villainized. Yes, it was that messed up in my head.

So after my few weeks of emotional thrashing and finally giving up on my perfect dream of how I'd lose my virginity, we did end up having sex. It was magical for me. I felt like a new man. Like there was "virgin me" of the past, and "post-virgin me", and I felt more confident, more like a real man. My ego had exploded. Yes, I had built it up that much in my wee 19 years of Christian anti-premarital sex angst. And, of course, there was inevitable the years of church-induced guilt that comes along with that.

This started a new emotional roller coaster in our relationship, of me wanting more and more sex and her trying to put on the brakes and approach it a bit more rationally rather than hormonally. I understood, of course, particularly since my guilt agreed with her requests, but the torrent of "more, more, more!" in my 19 year old hormonal overdrive kept me a strong nuisance, and she often gave in to keep the peace.

And then there's the level of commitment imbalance between us. For me, I understood this to be my "first real relationship" - a learning experience, which was not likely to continue on to marriage, but it might... someday... WAY into the future. For her, it was absolutely the path to marriage, and as soon as she could convince me to agree to it. This was mostly unspoken between us, but it was obvious from our behaviors and our conflicts. Sadly, this approach continued into our marriage, but that's further along. I'll get back to that.

Several big events occurred at about the 11-month mark of our relationship: she told me she had agreed to go out with her ex boyfriend - yes, *that* boyfriend - canceling a dinner date with my family. When I objected, she didn't understand. She went out with him anyway. This confused and hurt me deeply, and she never understood why, even when I tried to explain it. Then she told me she wanted me to buy her a ring for Christmas. Not a wedding ring, mind you, but she wanted that token of romantic appreciation. I bought it for her. We started arguing around this time, much of it centered around the topic of commitment. It was not fun, and felt like it could be over soon.

Then the biggest event that occurred is that we went on a foreign exchange program to London. We went with very different agendas: I went in wanting to explore a new world and experience freedom from the parental units, being with a bunch of friends there on the same program. She saw it as a romantic getaway, and reminded me at every step how I wasn't being romantic, especially if I wanted to go be with my friends instead of her. I felt trapped and did not appreciate this nagging one bit on this trip. She felt snubbed and gilted, understandably. It was a toxic environment. We broke up and got back together several times, the first time being when she handed me the ring back saying "I don't know what this means to you". It simply meant I bought you a ring she asked for! She needed it to mean something more, and it simply didn't at that stage in my life.

During this time, she started calling a male friend of hers back home, lamenting about how I was treating her. I also lamented to friends in London. We were not happy together and it was obvious things were very likely to end. She even cruelly jabbed to me that my penis was too small for her during this time... DEEP wound. In the aftermath of that, I did confide in a female friend there in London and we did kiss a couple of times very lightly and quickly stopped ourselves because we were both involved with others, feeling ashamed of what we'd done.

She absolutely flabbergasted me when we got back, the next night after getting back she slept with this guy she'd been calling, and confessed the very next day, still with the full intention of leaving me for him. When she told him she confessed, he basically started back-pedaling, and she figured out then he was only in it for the sex, so she ended it with him.

I was a complete mess, and I didn't understand why - nobody did. I had been talking so long about wanting to end things with her that I couldn't understand why this hurt me so badly and deeply. I think because it was such a big deal for me to entrust her with my virginity, it really, REALLY hurt that she just cavalierly slept with another guy so quickly after he told her all the things she wanted to hear. I thrashed and kicked and screamed (privately, to myself) for months and months. Nobody understood what I was going through, and I had no one to talk to about it. There was no survivinginfidelity site to go to 24 years ago. I also felt I probably deserved it for kissing another girl, even though she never knew about that - it did feel a bit like justice being served, albeit with a big overdose. Needless to say, we broke up after that, but not without the thrashing that goes along with post-affair hysterical bonding, etc. and trying to get as much information out of her as I could about WHY she did it, with no satisfying (is it ever?) reason given.

We did end up getting married 10 years later, with several "interludes" in between where we'd get together for fun no-strings-attached sex over those 10 years. The reason we got married at that 10th year was that she got pregnant, and we decided to do the right thing by the child and provide her with a family. We also did re-discover a love for each other that had never really died even after all that.

In an earnest attempt to resolve my feelings about her cheating, I told her I wanted to talk about everything in our past relationship and that I wanted to do it with a therapist before we get married. I confessed the kiss with another girl (which I had done years before as well, but she had forgotten) and that was it - no remorse when her cheating came up. She did not want to talk about it at all. That ended therapy pretty quickly, but not my intention of marrying the woman carrying my child, who I indeed still loved.

Over the first few years of our marriage I gently brought it up a couple more times saying "I'd really love to be able to talk to you about my feelings over your affair sometime" and was met with "I don't want to talk about that" each time, along with "you were a horrible boyfriend in London". So I gave up, realizing she was never going to want to actually *deal* with what she'd done to me, and that forcing the issue would simply push her to say things under duress. I was on my own again... and it simply festered and built. Every time I thought of the affair it hurt.

Fast forward to the 6th year of our marriage and I discovered what the cuckold world was all about, and it really resonated with me. I can turn my painful memories over her affair into pleasurable ones? Sign me up! I dove in, learning all I could about that world, and found out that many in that world come from past unresolved affairs in their lives. It's a pretty common entry point into cuckoldry. I brought it up with her a few times, letting her know I had these very strange desires, but once again, she wasn't interested in talking about such things - she was okay with me exploring it, but it wasn't something she was willing to entertain or discuss at length. I understood and was on my own again with my festering feelings, but felt much better about them since they were now feelings of immense, but very guilty pleasure that I had to hide from everyone.

We also started having arguments again, very similar to our first relationship, only a lot more intense. The worst was about my mother. She hated her. I loved my mother and felt trapped between two women I loved. My mother was dying of breast cancer at the time, so I obviously felt I needed to be there for her, while at the same time my wife was jealous and bitter about my interactions with her. My old habit of lying to keep the peace went into full force. This did not create a happy or healthy marital environment. When my mother finally passed (March 2013) it flipped a switch in me. I was so angry at my wife for being such an incredible bitch to my mother, and she was angry at me for not being supportive of *her* feelings about my mother, it started a downward spiral for me.

I had now decided I was okay with possibly finding someone else and being open to an affair with them. It was only a matter of time. I had also decided to keep this secret since I did not want to blow up our family life and create huge distress for our daughter. Yes, very wayward thinking. So the affair happened. I picked a despicable woman because I knew I didn't want to fall in love or have any strings, and this woman turned out to be not only despicable but a psychopath. She started threatening all kinds of retaliation and exposure - even played the wayward "I'm pregnant" card, which I believed because I wasn't aware there was a playbook - and I knew at that point I needed to confess before my wife found out any other way.

I fully expected her to pack up and leave since she had said she would do that if I ever cheated. She did not, and we started the process of healing / reconciliation, with the help of this site. When I once again tried bringing in *her* cheating into the mix, she denied that this was a madhatter situation because we weren't married at the time and that it was so long ago. Because she was in so much pain, I agreed to that stipulation, however, it never felt right to me that I had to do all the wayward work that she never had. In fact, she has always been a very UN-remorseful wayward, saying things like "well, you were a lousy boyfriend in London", like that's her justification for fucking someone else.

But the wounding was still there in me and because it had never been dealt with, came back with a vengeance into our reconciliation for this affair.

So that's where we are, and as has been stated many times for madhatters, it is a very difficult and unique journey. She still doesn't want to admit that we are madhatters - she wants to be the betrayed and still have me solely in the role of wayward. But the wounding is fresh again with all that has happened in the aftermath.

So I'm hear to ask your help, other madhatters/waywards. Any advice you can provide is very appreciated. I accept all 2-by-4 and kindly advice. I've been lurking here a while and know how the game works. I'm just lost now as to how to help her through this, and how to ask for what I need as well.

Thanks for reading this epic post!

[This message edited by WaywardInHayward at 2:19 PM, July 7th (Monday)]


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, July 7th (Monday)

Hi WaywardInHayward.

Good to see you back here posting, and thanks for sharing the details of your story. That helps a lot for any of us wanting to help you with your specific situation.

You are definitely in a madhatter situation, as defined by the rules of this web site, in that you have both cheated and been betrayed within your current relationship.

Both affairs have to be worked on in order to move forward, IMHO. Rug sweeping does not work, and I think you are finding this out, as the pain from your wife's affair keeps reoccurring, and will continue to do so until it is processed and dealt with.

When I cheated, my wife and I had been dating for maybe six months, tops. We were going through a rocky period in our relationship. In fact my wife (girlfriend at the time), even suggested that maybe we take a break from each other, and that she wasn't sure where she stood in the relationship. That's when I cheated, and slept with my friend's wife two times within a one week period. No, my wife and I weren't married, or even engaged. We were boyfriend/girlfriend, though, with the understanding that we weren't seeing anyone else. What I had was an affair. I cheated. I committed infidelity. No question about it.

When I told her about this 15 years later, it hurt her like hell, even though she had betrayed me so horribly. To give a brief summary of my betrayal, she had a 15 year affair with another married man that started a few months before I met her, and continued through our dating, engagement, and marriage. I then found out that our only child, my son, was not biologically mine, when he was almost seven years of age.

So here's the thing. You can tell that my affair and my wife's affair were different, when it comes to length of time it went on, her bringing the OM into our marital bed, the biological disconnect with my son, etc. We've honestly spent a lot more time healing from that affair versus mine. At the same time, it's really not fair to compare the affairs. My wife still had to go through her pain, anger, resentment, all of those feelings, which were 100% valid. I still had to go through the process of figuring out why I did what I did. I still had to work on myself and fix the things that were wrong with me that caused me to cheat.

So yeah, these are tough waters to navigate. You do need to work on yourself as a wayward, but you do need to also recognize that you have been betrayed. You need to heal from that.

Whatever justifications your wife had for cheating back then don't matter. It was her choice to cheat, and she did cheat on you, whether she admits it or not. How you behaved towards her in London does not excuse or justify her behavior.

Are either of you in counseling? MC is great, but my wife and I benefited most from our own IC, or individual counseling.

Best of luck. Keep posting here. We're here to support both you and your wife through this. Overall, you sound like a good couple, and I hope that you all can work through this together.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
WaywardInHayward
New Member
Member # 41964
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, July 7th (Monday)

Thank you, Losfer... I have always enjoyed your posts and insight into this particularly difficult situation.

So here's the thing. You can tell that my affair and my wife's affair were different, when it comes to length of time it went on, her bringing the OM into our marital bed, the biological disconnect with my son, etc. We've honestly spent a lot more time healing from that affair versus mine. At the same time, it's really not fair to compare the affairs. My wife still had to go through her pain, anger, resentment, all of those feelings, which were 100% valid. I still had to go through the process of figuring out why I did what I did. I still had to work on myself and fix the things that were wrong with me that caused me to cheat.

Question for you: did you find that discovering the things that caused you to cheat were helpful to your wife? To hear your reasons? Or did it just frustrate and/or infuriate her that you would have the gall to compare your situations?

Are either of you in counseling? MC is great, but my wife and I benefited most from our own IC, or individual counseling.

I am in IC with an Imago therapist. She did visit twice to attempt MC with him, but his approach did not suit her well.

She is not in IC, and had been relying on me to do all the work in her healing, at least in terms of IC. She does read SI voraciously to help understand what others go through and how it relates to our situation.

She has always had a very adverse relationship with therapy - doesn't trust it at all. I worry that she'll never find someone she likes, or if she *does* it will be because they are saying the things she wants to hear, rather than things she needs to hear. But that's all her side of the street. I can worry about that, but it won't get me anywhere. I have to stay on my side and do my work.

A serious problem we have is in our conflict styles. I often want to put on the brakes when either of our lids are flipped, and that's when she really wants to start angrily pushing me hard for answers. That's when I have historically slipped into "saying whatever I can to make her stop coming after me - even if it's a lie". That's my wounding and I know it's something I need to deal with, but when she won't even take a break and come back at a calmer time, it's really hard for me. She likes having me up against the ropes, presumably because that's when she has historically gotten me to say what she wants to hear, which have sadly been lies.

That's the "rock and a hard place" I'm in between now. Knowing I need to stay truthful, but also wanting her to feel better as well. Sometimes the truth really DOES hurt. Me saying I don't feel remorseful is very painful. I understand it, but I don't want to rug sweep it either.

Sigh... it's really, really hard.

ETA: I posted some of this in Wayward forum, but probably should have put it in this forum: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=535446

[This message edited by WaywardInHayward at 4:23 PM, July 7th (Monday)]


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, July 7th (Monday)

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to focus on your healing and continue to be authentic in your feelings. She will either have to figure herself out or not. You cannot own that side of the street for her. You have to heal as a betrayed and a wayward. I can tell you for a fact that I did my best work as a wayward, not a betrayed. Stay on the wayward board, those people will steer you right.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 10:51 PM, July 7th (Monday)

Question for you: did you find that discovering the things that caused you to cheat were helpful to your wife? To hear your reasons? Or did it just frustrate and/or infuriate her that you would have the gall to compare your situations?

Working on my "why" was more beneficial to me than my wife. Ultimately, figuring out the "why" helps to determine the "why not", i.e. why I will never cheat again. That is helpful to my wife. Also, working on the "why" helped me find some key flaws within myself that I could pinpoint, focus on, and work on. That helped my wife, because that work has helped me become a better person and a better partner to her.

We didn't really have too many issues with comparing our affairs, luckily. One thing that helped me was some work that I did with Hardlessons (Tired Girl's H), which helped me realize that no matter what type of affair mine was or hers was, they were both rooted in very similar fuckedupness and wayward thinking. Those are things that all affairs have in common, whether they are a one night stand, an LTA, multiple partners, an EA, a PA, etc., etc., etc.

I agree with Tired Girl about the wayward forum. The Madhatter's thread is great for discussing difficulties that you run into specifically with being on both sides of the fence. A lot of introspective, self reflective, and difficult work is done in the wayward forum. One benefit to that forum is that it opens you up to many seasoned waywards who have been there done that, not just specifically people from the MH camp.

Hang in there, and tell the truth no matter how difficult it is, or what the repercussions may be. Now is the time to let go of the outcome and live authentically. You can doo eeet. Cheering you on, man.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
burntashes
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Default  Posted: 2:13 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

WaywardInHayward, you sound similar to my husband when you said you want to put on the breaks if either of you flip, except my husband wouldn't say lies. He would go into another room and close the door, or say "I am really thinking of leaving you. I can't wait to get the f out of here." I would go into another room and cry until I am exhausted or try to calm myself done. We can't talk about anything about our relationship without H flipping out and threatening to leave.

At this point I feel he's here because of our daughter whom he loves very much. He says he does love me when I get depressed and ask if he's just "putting up with me", but he also told me he will never hold hands and act like lovers with me again because I am not the type of woman he would love with my cheater history. We sleep on the same bed, but there's no intimacy unless I ask him, which is twice this year, and I consciously make myself stop because it feels like asking him to do a chore. He very rarely initiate any contact with me, so we can go thru months with no physical contact daily except for sleeping in the same bed. It makes me very depressed when days go by with no contact I reach out to give him a hug or kiss now and then, but there's no response from him, just feels like he tolerates them.

I battle the feeling of depression, resentment from the rejection everyday. I understand my betrayal made me someone he can't feel in love with anymore. Occasionally he told me he felt romantic, a couple times this year, but the vast majority of time we are like roommates from my view. It makes me trigger about his sleeping around with multiple women the first 2 years after DDay and saying he would have never done that had I not cheated. He doesn't do that anymore, but it still hurts and I can't talk about it. I can't say sorry for my cheating because he gets angry when I do. He doesn't want to talk about us: "I just don't think about it."

The feeling that it will never get better - he said he'd have to be dumb or shallow if he would love someone that betrayed him again - is hard to deal with. It makes me drained. I keep reminding myself I can only control me. How he thinks and responds to me is his choice, and I have no control over that. It's only futile to wish he would see differently. I focus on working on me and look to my honest feelings about who I am now. We are peaceful and both love our daughter. I know my daughter is much happier with my husband in the house. I owe it to her to provide her the best stable environment to grow up in. It's my actions that cause things to suck now for all of us. I need to put my daughter first. It's just hard for me because I've been such a selfish person for so long.

Sorry for rambling on and on. I just needed to share it with someone. Thanks for listening.


Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Daughter
LTA, not divorced with no R
I confessed PA 6/10. Detailed confession: 9/10. All the truth 9/11.

Posts: 381 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

Burnt ashes - as an adult if your DD finds out the lengths of what you had to do to stay married to her father she would be so sad for you. Do you really want this life for yourself?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

Burnt ashes,

I think your DD will end up resenting the fact that you sacrificed your life for her. Get out and live your life. Being a martyr does no one any good.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
butterfly1384
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Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

burntashes,

saying he would have never done that had I not cheated

I have heard this EXACT same comment from my X repeatedly about my affair and his affair. He tries to compare them and justify his by blaming me. And he will tell anyone that he comes into contact with that doesn't approve of his current situation that I cheated first, therefore, I'm the bad one and his affair is justified.

As my counselor said, his affair was HIS choice. My affair (or yours in this example) had NOTHING to do with his. We all have to be responsible for our own choices.


Posts: 9 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: Minnesota
WaywardInHayward
New Member
Member # 41964
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)

In the aftermath of her affair and my own father's, one very unhealthy way I learned to cope with them was to decide "cheating really isn't that bad", and this idea is taken further into extremes with ideas like open relationships, swinging and cuckolding... all things wayward mindsets like mine enjoy agreeing with and exploring online, if not in reality. It makes what I think/feel/want to do feel justified.

I'm certainly guilty of this hurtful thinking. I *wanted* to be in a situation where cheating had no consequences... to have my cake and eat it too. I had already set myself up to be an unremorseful wayward. The key is breaking out of that poisonous belief system.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
burntashes
Member
Member # 29446
Default  Posted: 12:33 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

rachelc and TG,

Thanks for your replies. I don't know how my daughter will feel about this when she's grown, but she really likes spending time with her dad, much more than me. He's much more fun to be with. She would be very sad and missing him a lot if he's not here. I already damaged her childhood memories with the mess I created and the ugly aftermath. I can't bring more sadness in her life just because I don't feel loved enough by my H whom I betrayed so badly. That seems so selfish. When I think about the lies and disgusting ways I treated him when he was devoted to me, I am so angry at myself, how can I expect him to feel loving toward me after that? It feels unreasonable to expect love from him, as much as I want it. I already threw it away.

I feel since my H is unfairly having to suffer the pain from my betrayal, and he's willing to stay with me even though he's settling for less, shouldn't I also put our daughter's needs first? When I struggle I feel like I am being extremely selfish and entitled, the way I was in my A. I don't want to be that selfish person anymore. I just still have a hard time letting go of wanting love and closeness with H. I feel if I keep working on being more independent and self sufficient I can be more content accepting this consequence of my actions. My feelings change back and forth.

Butterfly, I agree that his actions are his choices, but I also believe how wouldn't have done that if I never cheated. So I caused the emotion behind it. Not sure how to work that out. He's not going to change his thinking and I am tired of thinking about the f'upness. Thanks for listening.


Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Daughter
LTA, not divorced with no R
I confessed PA 6/10. Detailed confession: 9/10. All the truth 9/11.

Posts: 381 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

I caused the emotion behind it. Not sure how to work that out. He's not going to change his thinking and I am tired of thinking about the f'upness.

this is sad. I suspect my husband still kinda feels this way. Thing is, I could point to all kinds of crap he did that caused my emotions too - I felt neglected, unappreciated, etc. Doesnt' really matter. We could both point at each other way back to the day we met! But the choices we justify based on someone else's actions are ours to own. In fact, it's a crappy way of living. You did this, so I get to do this. The minute someone thinks this is ok is the minute you're in trouble.

If you don't want to do anything about it that is your choice. Does your husband post here?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
burntashes
Member
Member # 29446
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

rachelc, the thing is I do want to do something about it, I just don't know what to do. I feel like I am dying inside living like this. Yesterday just like any other day, a hug when I get home and I kissed him goodnight. That's it. No affection. None. No ILY, no tenderness. My question is am I expecting too much? Am I being too needy while this is how it just goes after I hurt him badly? I have to fight the urge to leave constantly. I feel bad that I feel this way. I feel so frustrated.

He doesn't post here. I don't think he even reads here. He wants us to "make the best of it" but it feels so cold and distant, but anytime I bring it up he gets angry and said "you did this. You f'ed someone else. I just don't feel that way about you." What can I do when he doesn't feel affectionate?


Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Daughter
LTA, not divorced with no R
I confessed PA 6/10. Detailed confession: 9/10. All the truth 9/11.

Posts: 381 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: California
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 9:06 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

burntashes...

You have a PM.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
WaywardInHayward
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Member # 41964
Shocked  Posted: 2:30 AM, July 10th (Thursday)

My wife is, understandably, having a devastatingly hard time with the revelation that I'd been faking a lot of the remorseful statements I'd made. It's triggering my instinct to want to tell her something hopeful that isn't necessarily true.

I try to give her hope that we're now on a better path, but it doesn't seem to help. She says she feels like I keep handing her grenades that she needs to hold onto tightly to keep from being destroyed.

I tell her I'm very sorry and that I love her and want nothing more than to be truthful *and* healing, but the two seem to be complete opposites for her.

What have others done in similar situations to provide hope?

I'm trying to determine what percentage of my work on reconciliation was true and false. It feels like I did a lot of good work, but the mad hatter bullshit that kept creeping up made it feel false, but something I felt I had to hide at the time. Now that it's out, she's wondering if ANYTHING I said or did was true, which I certainly understand.

Any advice/insight is appreciated. I feel like I'm swimming in the dark when talking to her in this state. I have no idea what to say because everything I say (even the loving/hopeful statements) seems to hurt her more.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, July 10th (Thursday)

So let me ask you this. Do you not have any problems with the fact that you betrayed yourself let alone her? Take her out of the picture, what about your choices? Look at yourself. Is this the person that you wanted to be? Did you set out to be this kind of person? Are you ok with who you are and who you have become?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
WaywardInHayward
New Member
Member # 41964
Sad  Posted: 10:47 AM, July 10th (Thursday)

So let me ask you this. Do you not have any problems with the fact that you betrayed yourself let alone her? Take her out of the picture, what about your choices? Look at yourself. Is this the person that you wanted to be? Did you set out to be this kind of person? Are you ok with who you are and who you have become?

All great questions. Yes, I feel terrible that I committed this crime against her.

I guess I don't feel that *who* I have become has become lessened by my horrific choice.

So I wrote that sentence above and just stopped. It is infused with all kinds of feelings about how I had devalued infidelity in my early 20s, with thoughts like "Yes, my dad cheated, but he isn't a bad person... he made a bad choice" Which I still feel is true.

It also makes me think of when she cheated and how it changed who I thought she was because I now knew what she is capable of. Yes, at the time, I had moments where I did consider her an evil person, but I knew that wasn't true in my heart. She was a good person who made an extremely bad and painful choice, but it took me a while to get that realization.

So I can see why she thinks the same of me - that I'm evil - and really wants me to see it that way too.

So, is the goal in remorse to be able to see and agree that I'm a horrible person? Or am I twisting your words?


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, July 10th (Thursday)

I think what TG is probably getting at, and I don't want to speak for her, is that committing infidelity is a betrayal of self as well. It is something that instantly causes you to lose integrity, yet with so little to gain in return.

I'd like to be able to look back on my life and say that I've never cheated. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, and then sunk. Worse yet, I was the one that sunk that ship. It's not about saying that you are a horrible person, it is about realizing that your spouse wasn't the only person you fucked over. You fucked yourself over, too. Know what I mean?

Then there is the balancing act of realizing you fucked yourself over, but not wallowing in shame about it, as you have to be strong for your partner and your self. The ship can't be unsunk, but you can find new ways to tread water and move forward.

Good to see you posting, and digging deeper into this stuff!


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
WaywardInHayward
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Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Then there is the balancing act of realizing you fucked yourself over, but not wallowing in shame about it, as you have to be strong for your partner and your self. The ship can't be unsunk, but you can find new ways to tread water and move forward.

That's definitely closer to how I feel about it.

In all honesty, there is conflicting feelings in there as well which is that she sunk the ship long ago and left me in the lifeboat all alone. I bailed by myself for a long time, and when I saw other ships going by and no one offering a ride, I decided that this leaky lifeboat is where I belong, and that I need to be okay with it. That I'm hurt, broken and that's okay... in fact I felt empowered in being okay with my patched up lifeboat, and that infidelity isn't the end of the world. You can build yourself a new perspective and enjoy life in a patched up lifeboat that leaks from time to time.

It gave me a whole new outlook on life, but perhaps one that isn't healthy for relationships.

When she came back into my life (before marriage), I tried to show her "hey! I'm still sitting here in this shitty little lifeboat you put me in", but it never got through ... till recently. So for most of our marriage, I led her to believe that I was happily up on the stable marriage ship with her, when I was really still sitting in the lifeboat, hanging on to the edge of the ship.

I guess where I get stuck is that I want her to see that it really isn't that bad being down here in the leaky boat, but she's screaming at me to hurry up and patch it up quickly, so we can get back on a stable marriage ship.

Yup, I can see how messed up my thinking is, but it's honest, and I'm okay being there. She's not, and I probably shouldn't be either. Ugh

ETA: re-reading this I can also see how what I did was blast her ship and bring her down to her own lifeboat, and instead of jumping in and helping her bail, I'm saying "see? not so bad - stop bailing and just patch!" while I'm sitting in my own rickety boat. I can see how uncaring that would feel.

She may rightly feel like she needs to jump out and swim away from me as quickly as possible, because I'm not being helpful, but hurtful.

[This message edited by WaywardInHayward at 2:15 PM, July 10th (Thursday)]


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
LosferWords
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Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

I don't want to get too caught up in the analogy, but I wasn't really talking about the "marriage ship" I was talking about an individual ship, representing integrity.

Your wife's infidelity did nothing to your integrity. That was still solid and intact. When you chose to commit infidelity, you single-handedly caused yourself to sink your own ship of integrity.

That's a really tough concept to grasp, because marriages are often viewed as partnerships, working 100% in unity. In reality (as I see it), it is made up of two autonomous parts that make up the whole.

Your analogy of the "marriage ship" is a valid one, it is just a different analogy than I was trying to portray. Hopefully I'm making sense here.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
WaywardInHayward
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Member # 41964
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Yes, indeed, I see your point. And yes, the analogy got pretty thick there, I admit!

I guess I'm seeing how I had caused my own ship of integrity to sink way before the affair when I devalued the importance of fidelity altogether... and she only became aware of it through my affair.

My choice is whether I will decide fidelity really IS a big deal to me moving forward. And yes, I know how incredibly foggy wayward that sounds, but I think getting it out here and not hiding it is my best chance at seeing it and analyzing it for what it truly is.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

I guess I'm seeing how I had caused my own ship of integrity to sink way before the affair when I devalued the importance of fidelity altogether... and she only became aware of it through my affair.

This sounds like good insight on your part - that you are able to look back and see where your wayward mindset started to kick in, even before you went through with the cheating.

My choice is whether I will decide fidelity really IS a big deal to me moving forward.

You are right, in that it is your choice. None of us can decide that for you, and I agree that it is good for you to be talking about it out here. I can personally say, it feels good for me to have everything out in the open with my wife. We've been through some rough patches because of behavior on both of our parts, but it is nice to be authentic and have things out in the open. Things are only getting better. If either of us had stayed in our old patterns, things would have gotten worse, or we would have had to go our separate ways, in order for either of us to have any hope of healing.


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, July 11th (Friday)

It sounds like you are starting to make some real progress as to what your thought processes were prior to what you did. Do you think that fidelity was something that you valued prior to what you did?

[This message edited by tired girl at 9:40 AM, July 11th (Friday)]


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
WaywardInHayward
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Default  Posted: 12:43 AM, July 14th (Monday)

Do you think that fidelity was something that you valued prior to what you did?

No, it had lost its value LONG before I cheated. I remember when finding out about my father's infidelity (20 years ago), I said to myself "Oh good! Now *he'll* never be able to judge ME if/when I cheat!" and it was almost like a permission slip: "It's okay - everything works out in the end, even if you cheat. A very positive life change awaits you afterward."

Yup. That's the message I got (or at least manufactured) from that experience.

Even though their marriage dissolved, my parents relationship improved afterward, at least from what I could see. So it was like "wow, no biggie!"

I was an adult at the time and had been through a couple of gut-wrenching breakups, so it fit right into how I was thinking at the time: very cynical about relationships.

Digging through this stuff is finally getting me to some truth laid bare.

[This message edited by WaywardInHayward at 12:46 AM, July 14th (Monday)]


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
badchoice
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Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, July 14th (Monday)

OK- I am starting to deal with my MH status. I have owned my wayward-ness, but I don't think I have dealt with my BS status.

W and I are separated, so it's not like I can work on this with her. I don't think I can ask her to listen to me as I process these feelings - and I believe that closure is a myth anyway.

Have any of you worked through this without your Spouse? I assume most of you here are in R, I could be wrong.

How did you separate your hurt from your guilt and shame?


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, July 14th (Monday)

WIH,

I had a feeling that this was what was going on with you given your childhood. So given that this was how you had viewed fidelity, why do you feel that her cheating on you hurt so much?

BC,

You are correct that most of us here are in R, but I don't think that it matters that much when trying to deal with the fact that we have to deal with both ourselves and with betrayal. I have found it easiest to keep then separate. If I am feeling with feelings of what HL did, then I keep it to that. I don't bring in my wayward side to try to let my feelings of shame then cover that up. I feel all my feelings and deal with them accordingly. I hope that helps.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, July 14th (Monday)

Hi BC, good to see you here processing this.

I'm not in R... at least, I don't think so anyway. Your guess is as good as mine!
Anyway, I am processing my husband's infidelities alone.

Keeping it separate is hard. I find mindfulness helps, so I can identify exactly what I'm feeling (shame, guilt, pain, betrayal etc) and deal with one emotion at a time.

It's crazy making, they don't call it the rabbit hole for nothing! Post here as much as you need.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
WaywardInHayward
New Member
Member # 41964
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, July 14th (Monday)

So given that this was how you had viewed fidelity, why do you feel that her cheating on you hurt so much?

She cheated before I found out about my father's infidelity... before I had decided infidelity was okay... in fact *her* infidelity was part of why I decided it wasn't such a bad thing - so that it wouldn't hurt ME as much.

Here's the thing... I was also unfaithful to her during that relationship. I kissed another girl several times, knowing it was wrong and eventually stopped because I knew it was wrong. So even then my "infidelity is wrong" barometer wasn't necessarily strong.

So, in a way, I also felt like I deserved her infidelity.

Another piece that totally didn't make sense to me at the time, was that I was over our relationship. Part of me really *wanted* it to end. So this actually made that piece of it (ending it) easy.

But there I was, processing her infidelity and it ate me up like nothing I'd ever felt in my life. It was horrible, even though I kept telling myself "why??? I wanted this relationship to end!"

So many conflicting feelings. It was a truly nightmarish time for me, and I had nothing like SI to guide me through it. I was alone and in hindsight I can see how I processed it in a very negative way.

I decided love was a sham. Infidelity was okay, as was revenge. Not good, especially when we got back together 10 years later. She had no idea how broken I was, and I played it off like I was perfectly healed and above it all - above her - and I wielded that like a sword in our marriage. I used it very selfishly, and when things wouldn't go my way, I started stacking up her "offenses" in a long list to create a justification for all my selfishness.

So that's the emotional crap I'm wading through right now. I'm glad I'm able to share it here, too and get feedback/wisdom from others who have waded through these festering waters before.

[This message edited by WaywardInHayward at 8:14 PM, July 14th (Monday)]


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Hayward, CA
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Sometimes even when we want something to end because we know the relationship is not good for us, when rejection happens or betrayal it keeps us locked up in needing that person or that person's approval. That could be what happened with you.

I think it is good that you are looking at the fact that you have not held fidelity high on your list as something to value, and therefore would not treat as something that should be respected. This would certainly come out in your attitude and I am sure this is what your W is seeing and having a problem with. This should be explored by you and determined if you can live in a monogamous relationship. Some people are not happy living their lives that way as it is not high on their value or morals list. No problem with that other than if it is high on their partners, well you see where I am going.

My father is one that monogamy was never high on his list, and he pretty much lived that way until he was much older and then finally settled down in a monogamous marriage. I never witnessed him being faithful until then. Even now, he has difficulty not flirting with everything when he is not with her. It is who he is.

Only you can decided who you are really underneath everything. It will be a journey that you take. It is one that we all take on this road.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
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Default  Posted: 5:29 AM, July 17th (Thursday)

Warning: vent.

We've had a pretty good few weeks. Lots of healthy discussions, working together to tackle issues, feeling really connected.

Then came an accusation from a family member that he had cheated on me a few years ago by kissing a guy.
I don't think the accusation is true but I had a niggling thought in the back of my mind so I asked him outright. His reaction to me asking left me speechless.

I do believe he is telling the truth, I don't think he kissed this other guy. But the way he handled the whole situation was really awful. He wouldn't discuss it calmly, he was just defensive and sarcastic.

Then he triggered about my A and said he couldn't talk to me anymore, so discussion about anything else was stopped.

He came round last night, he had calmed down but was obviously still feeling bad/triggering about my A.
We had quite a good talk about things, sorted some stuff out.

He made some comments about his views on needing support to overcome depression, he thinks it's a sign of weakness. These comments, added together with his past behaviour WRT my depression years ago and his more recent opinions on his brother's depression and suicide attempts made me think that he might be of the opinion that needing support is weak because he thinks people will get fed up and lose patience with the person suffering from depression.

I asked him if this was the case and offered reassurance that I wasn't going to lose patience. He just blew up. Accused me of making it all about me (because I mentioned my depression) shouting and swearing at me, really vile stuff.
I lost my temper. I'm so ashamed of myself, I called him a prick. He left the house shouting and swearing at me.

We are supposed to be going to visit family this weekend (he's going to see his mum and I'm taking the kids to see my family) as he was getting in the car he said I could go fuck myself this weekend, he would just see me on Monday. Meaning he would make the two hour trip alone, leaving me and the children in the house with no car and unable to see our family.

I didn't respond, I just let him leave. I called him later to say I would need the car to go to the supermarket and he 'granted me permission' to use the car today. I apologised for name calling, told him I had crossed the line and behaved in an unacceptable way. He said he would talk to me when he had calmed down.

I'm just so sick of this. I was upset on Tuesday night, it wasn't nice having to ask him if the accusation was true. It's not my fault there is doubt. His reaction was horrible and then he triggered so discussion was impossible.

I feel very selfish for being annoyed about that but if I'm honest, I am. I was upset and triggering, he reacted defensively and then made it all about him and his feelings so I wasn't allowed to talk to him anymore.

Not allowing me to use the car is his way of punishing me, he did it after his Dday and admitted he was doing it as a punishment. It hasn't been an issue for several months now and if I'm perfectly honest it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to me. But now I have to tell the kids they can't see their Nanna and their Aunt and the rest of their family, who they haven't seen in over a month and Daddy won't see them this weekend either.
He's punishing the kids too. That's not fair.
Plus there's the safety issue of being in a remote location for a whole weekend with no public transport and two kids.

Edited for spelling

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 5:33 AM, July 17th (Thursday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
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Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, July 17th (Thursday)

BBT,

I am sorry that that happened. It can be really hard when emotions are running high like that to keep things separated.

I know that you are having a hard time right now with the idea that this may have happened and his defensive posture is not helping to ease your mind at all. Have you guys tried to set any kind of ground rules on only discussing one affair at a time? I think that it can really help, it did with HL and I. If we were discussing or one of us was triggering over one affair, the other was not allowed to be brought up as a defense. It helped us a lot to stay present with the other partner's pain.

I hope that he will come to his sense's before the weekend and you guys can have a good weekend. Hugs.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, July 17th (Thursday)

Yeah we agreed that a few weeks ago and things have been going really well since.

This is the first time in a long time that he's figuratively shouted over my feelings with his own.

We have been texting on and off today, just about the kids, shopping and a few other things. He did apologise for being 'irratible and in a bad mood'. He has an impacted wisdom tooth and an infection in the gum surrounding it, he's out on manoeuvres at work in the sweltering heat and he's not in a good place emotionally.

I can sympathise with that, he's not having an easy few days. But that doesn't mean my feelings about this accusation and the way he handled it are irrelevant.

Tomorrow I am going to suggest a barbecue dinner for the kids and then once they've gone to bed we can talk about each of our feelings in turn.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, July 17th (Thursday)

Being in pain can definitely lower a persons ability to handle emotions. I have learned to not discuss things if I am in pain, hungry, or tired. It helps a lot. I hope that things go better this next time for the two of you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
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Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, July 18th (Friday)

He's still furious that I asked because he thinks it means that I am questioning his sexuality.

I'm not, the gender of the person he is accused of kissing is irrelevant to me. All I know is he has bad boundaries.

I just keep saying that I will not apologise for asking whether the accusation is true or not, because it isn't my fault I am in the position of having doubt.

He keeps shouting 'you think I'm fucking gay!!'

I really don't know how to respond.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, July 18th (Friday)

Also, what's going on at the moment is the dynamic that existed before my A.

If I was upset or wanted to discuss something, he would get angry, shout and storm out and then refuse to discuss it. After a few days he would calm down and the issue would be resolved and 'over' according to him.

I'm starting to realise he just doesn't give a shit about how I feel. It's all about him, isn't it?


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
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Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, July 18th (Friday)

For someone that is conflict avoidant and acts very P/A this is the only way they know how to shut someone else down when they want to avoid what is being discussed. Maybe doing the 180 right now would be helpful for you until he is willing to discuss this in a calm manner with you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:30 PM, July 18th (Friday)

Yeah I think you're right. Thanks TG, you give such great advice

Just to check... is P/A passive aggressive? Might have to have a read of the ICR thread if so.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, July 18th (Friday)

Yes, it is passive aggressive


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
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Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, July 18th (Friday)

I've just spent about an hour reading about passive aggressiveness and conflict avoidance. Pretty much sums him up. Then I realised it doesn't even matter, I can't do anything about it.

What I'm interested in is how I ended up married to him. What was it about me that caused me to be attracted to and enter into a relationship with him.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 12:19 AM, July 19th (Saturday)

Hi BBT - for what it is worth, I consider myself a recovering passive aggressive person. But you should know that, right?

And when I say, "But you should know that, right?", it is in jest, but also kind of punctuate what a passive aggressive person does. They/we expect you to read their minds and emotions. There were so many years where I expected my wife to know how I was feeling because of the mood I was in. How fair is that?

In my experience as a recovering passive aggressive person is to make some rules about talking about things. Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

Another tactic of a passive aggressive person is you ask them how they are doing, and they say "Fine.... *sigh*". Yet another thing I have been guilty of in the past.

Probably the best way to deal with that is to take their words into account above all else. They say they are doing fine, then they are doing fine. Ignore the *sigh*. Ignore the drama, the slammed doors, the storming off. You can't be a mind reader.

In my personal opinion, healthy, straightforward communication is key to overcoming this. A passive aggressive person has feelings and thoughts, too, but there is a layer of bullshit around those feelings and thoughts. True communication is key above all else.

I feel like I bared a little bit of some uncomfortable parts of my soul there in this response, but it is all good. Whew.

What I'm interested in is how I ended up married to him. What was it about me that caused me to be attracted to and enter into a relationship with him.

I'm sure there are some things... what were they?


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
BrokenButTrying
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Default  Posted: 3:07 AM, July 19th (Saturday)

You can't be a mind reader.

Haha! I think I say this to him at least once a week!

Thank you for your reply Losfer, I really appreciate your honesty.

I'm sure there are some things... what were they?

I think on some level I fear rejection so intimacy is a scary concept. Marrying a PA conflict avoider means that true intimacy is almost impossible.

I am/was Co-D and that has something to do with it too I guess. We have a always had a pursuer/distancer relationship dynamic with me doing the chasing.

My issues etc are divided between FOO and an abusive relationship I was in during my teenage years. That relationship is where my Co-D started.

I haven't done enough work on this to know for sure, these are just my initial thoughts.

MrBBT and I have very similar issues; low self esteem, no self worth, fear of abandonment and rejection, dependency etc. We just have opposite coping mechanisms. He builds walls to protect himself and keeps everyone at a distance. I need(ed) other people to boost me up and make me feel better.

I used to be like that. Walls all around myself, I had very strong boundaries when it came to members of the opposite sex. Then I met my ex and slowly he eroded everything. That relationship changed me completely.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 7:27 AM, July 19th (Saturday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
justme1264
Member
Member # 42890
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

I have a question. I think I already know the answer. But, I just want clarification:

Is a madhatter someone who has sex with another person while they are still married, regardless if their spouse had forced a separation, and wanted a divorce? For example, my wife demands I leave the house and separate, declares the marriage is over, I move out. Months later nothing changes. Papers are being filed. I sleep with another woman knowing full well the marriage is in divorce (but not divorced yet).

This happened to me but BEFORE I knew about the fact she had an affair while we were together and during the separation.

Maybe someone here can help me clear up my confusion. I don't believe I am a madhatter. I didn't have an affair because she clearly ended our marriage after our MC, and I had moved out that evening. I was lonely, and it had been over 3 months after I moved out, and no progress towards reconciliation was being made. In fact, papers were already being filed. I don't see myself as having an affair but am I justifying?


Me 30s = BS
Her 20s= WW
She had two affairs between 2012-2014 that are confirmed. DD#1 3/2014. DD#2 11/2014.
Divorcing 11/2014
R? = I am still trying to figure that out.

Posts: 469 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, July 25th (Friday)

So you two were already S and papers were filed and no move was being made towards R?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
justme1264
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Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 25th (Friday)

Yes, we were S, papers were filed, and no move was being made towards R because she didn't want R. And this was the second time she forced a S. Only, I didn't know she was having an affair this whole time. She has told me to not contact her anymore and D was the only option. I was extremely depressed because she let me think we were divorcing because of me, but in fact they were because of her own guilt and shame. I had let go at this point. Then comes along this woman who pays attention to me, pursues me, and I sleep with her a dozen or so times before ending it, because I knew I had to be alone to deal with losing my wife and the D. About two months after I ended it my wife comes back and wants to R. We try, but it is false on her part. This is when I find out about the affair but not from my wife. She constantly gave me TT till she couldn't deny the evidence anymore. We separated again because she "couldn't do it anymore." Again, I move out and work on D and moving forward. Rinse and repeat...she does it again and wants R. And again it is false only this time I pulled the plug entirely and vowed to never take her back.

I don't think I am a madhatter. But it makes me feel as if somehow I deserved her affair because I was sleeping with someone else. I know that is illogical because she started her affair before I slept with this other woman (she had forced a separation and D because of her A) I think it is just me trying to reach and take on some of the blame so I can feel in control of a situation I had no control over. Or am I in denial? Am I a madhatter?

[This message edited by justme1264 at 9:56 AM, July 25th (Friday)]


Me 30s = BS
Her 20s= WW
She had two affairs between 2012-2014 that are confirmed. DD#1 3/2014. DD#2 11/2014.
Divorcing 11/2014
R? = I am still trying to figure that out.

Posts: 469 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: California
PrtyInPink
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Member # 44148
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, July 25th (Friday)

hhmm...I'm not the one who created the "madhatter" phrase, and I'm not really sure if there is a hard and fast rule to what places you in that category. IMO, it sounds like you were under false assumptions that you were getting a divorce. You didn't think that you were going to be married anymore, so in a sense, you were "moving on" but technically not because it sounds like your sex was purely based on the fact that you were getting attention and felt desired by someone other than your wife. Now, I think if your W would have said "we are on a trial S" then maybe your actions would have been different. You would have told yourself "no, we are getting back together, I will not have sex with this woman because of that". So I guess IMO, no, you wouldn't be considered a madhatter. But like I said, I didn't make the "rule" so I guess we'll see what others reply with.

On the other hand...do NOT take responsibility for her A and do NOT think that you deserve it at all!!! She chose her actions. You were not holding a gun up to her head telling her to screw someone else!!! Just take this time to realize that you can move on with your life.


Me: 30ish Him: 30ish (99% sure he has NPD)
Together 14 yrs, Married 9 yrs
His #1 EA D-day 10/20/09
His #2 PA/EA D-day 7/11/14
My PA D-day 10/21/09
My brain says leave, my heart says stay

Posts: 308 | Registered: Jul 2014
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, July 27th (Sunday)

Hi, I guess I can post in here although I don't reay feel like I should come under this category...I had a 3 month PA plus a long false R where I broke NC several times. I feel terrible about this now, i am really working on understanding why I did it so I will never go down that road again. I do not ever want to be that person again.

I am struggling with some things though - a couple of months before my A started my BH took another girl out on a date. Nothing happened apparently, but at the time things were not good between us. He has often said to me why didn't I say I was unhappy before I had my A, why didn't I force us to go to counselling. But part of me is really sad that he went on a date and didn't come home and try to work things out with me. He carried on as before.

He also had a ONS during our false R and then another during our 2 month separation (which he only told me about last week). He says he can look at himself in the mirror for all of these but I can never look at myself in the mirror again and that he has never done anything wrong. Obviously i have done many many things wrong, I know I have done so much worse.

But for some reason I am really upset about his first date. And also that somehow he can do all these things and it's totally fine. How do you deal with this when you know you have done a thousand times worse but you still feel hurt?


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 64 | Registered: Jul 2014
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, July 28th (Monday)

justme, I would say you are not a MH.

Lostcat,

Are you two in R? What are you doing to work on you right now? You know that what he did was not right and whether he wants to admit to it or not, he was wrong. At some point you will have to figure out if you are ok with him not being remorseful and looking at why he did it. The fact that you had an A is not the reason or a good why. He has to dig further just as you do.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
jo2love
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Member # 31528
Red  Posted: 10:55 AM, July 28th (Monday)

justme1264 -

You have a pm.


Posts: 36485 | Registered: Mar 2011
BrokenButTrying
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Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

Ok WTF just happened??!

MrBBT and I were having text conversation about him going out with his friends tonight, sorting out getting the car to me in case I need it. Him going out drinking with friends is a HUGE trigger for me, we sorted the car situation and I decided to tell him about triggering and feeling anxious.

Me: In the interest of being honest, I want to tell you that you going out is a big trigger for me. I get very anxious, which is how I'm feeling now. I think that's why I am so focused on having the car, I have no control over the choices you make but I can control myself and having the car while you are out (apart from being a safety issue) allows me independence and control over my own life.

Him: Ok, well that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for telling me. Is there anything I can do?

Me: In an ideal world I would like some reassurance, words of affirmation are my LL so it really makes a difference to me.

Him: I am not going to do anything that will breech my boundaries or cause you any upset, I promise.

Me: It means a lot to me to hear you say that, thank you. I love you.

Him: I love you too. I'll text you when I get back and see you tomorrow.


In six and half years this is the first time he has actually heard me and not become defensive.

I'm crying and I don't even know why.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 4:50 PM, July 31st (Thursday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
LosferWords
Guide
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Default  Posted: 8:02 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

That sounds like a very constructive conversation to me, BBT. I've had some breakthroughs in my relationship that have caused my allergies to unexpectedly kick in as well. Damn allergies...

Thanks for the awesome update. I hope this becomes a trend for you.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 8:23 PM, July 31st (Thursday)]


Posts: 8018 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Been thinking about this question a lot (from a few pages ago):

Do either of you still see yourselves as people that would hurt others willingly NOW?

My immediate response was, I still hurt people a lot. So I wondered why and how. How do I do it - is it on purpose? It's something I've been trying to explore in therapy. I have a lot of work to do. Is it because I don't do what needs to be done to be healthy? Somehow that resonates. That translates to hurting others, because if I'm not healthy, then I'm not interaction healthily, and I'm spreading unhealthiness instead… Or so it feels. It's really hard to tell. The other thing is, it feels like a lot of people in my life push my boundaries. So some of my doubts might come from the backlash when I stick up from my boundaries. Still sorting it all out… if that makes sense?

Just realized something, reading another post somewhere on the site. I think of myself as an object at times. And when it comes to sex with my H… I'm not sure how to describe what happens. It's shameful. It's almost like both of us are 2D. I'm having trouble thinking of how to explain this. I'm having trouble interacting with H as both of us being two people together. We're ideas rather than people - he's this idea of the handsome jock I don't deserve, or the guy who doesn't value sex so that any and every encounter we have is him lowering himself. I don't want to feel this way. I want to love and respect my H as a person. He seems to want physical intimacy now - which is why I make sure I don't initiate anymore and make sure he always does, which is similar to what he did in the beginning of our relationship. He wanted to kiss me, but he knew I'd been abused before I met him, so he waited for me to initiate to make sure he didn't make me uncomfortable. I want to make sure he's never uncomfortable, so if he initiates, then I know he's where he wants to be. It's that respect we have for each other that's special. But I just can't stop remembering the many times he rejected me, for the first three years together. Called me a freak for wanting intimacy, but enjoyed the porn and acting single with other girls all the time. I've internalized it. There's something gross about me. I feel like the sexual predators who molested me, just by wanting intimacy. So I try to block out that part of myself. I wonder if I remind myself of how single H acted as a way to deny intimacy between us. Maybe I hold on to how repulsed he used to act toward me, in order to keep a distance between us, because I feel repulsive. But it's not his fault. This is something I've been carrying for a very long time.

I know he loves video games. I believe he likes gifts as well, like cologne or a slice of pizza if I'm out. Or words of affirmation, he wants to know he has good fashion sense when he puts together an outfit. Or someone to listen to him about his worries. Those are the things my husband values. That's part of who he is. He just wants his family. I think deep down he wants a good relationship with our son as well. That might be the ultimate gift for both of them. That's who he is. That's who I need to love. I need to forgive the rest. But struggling with how.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:13 PM, August 1st (Friday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, August 2nd (Saturday)

BBT,

Sometimes when we have been invalidated for so long that when we are finally validated by that person that our feelings do matter it can feel very overwhelming. I am glad that he heard you, that is awesome !!!

Silver,

I have noticed that you often have trouble validating your own feelings and that they are as important as that of your H's and everyone else's. Do you realize that your feelings are as important?
I hope that you do


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, August 3rd (Sunday)

You're right, TG, I do have trouble with that. I'm afraid of validating my feelings too much and letting them skew reality or not being sensitive enough to others' feelings. But maybe I'm more unbalanced when I overcompensate and try to downplay them… My feelings are as valid as everyone else's… And I can still be a good listener and supporter knowing that.

Maybe the trouble is with the word "better". Always thoughts around "get/be better", others are "better than me", etc. What if I start saying "equal" in my head instead of "better" or "worse"? Hmm.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3921 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

with some recents posts by others, I've realized I need to be very steadfast in my commitment to maintaining my own boundaries. Nothing has happened but sometimes I feel a pull. It's at this point that I really need to sit down and dig to find out the root of it.

The feeling of being unwanted is very strong for me. I'm not sure that means being validated, maybe it is, but I want someone to be with me for me, not because it's a hassle or embarrassment to be divorced but because they actually love me.

Because I cheated first and have worked on why I chose that as a coping mechanism, I'm pretty astute to when I need this feeling. It's SO DAMN HARD because the message one receives when our spouse has an affair is emotionally "I don't want you." when logically it is, "I am broken."


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, August 23rd (Saturday)

rachelc,

I had this discussion with HL yesterday, the fact that I am totally ok with who I am, but what he does makes me not ok with who I am inside of this M. In other words, I feel unwanted by him, and the fact that other women have always been present in way or another in this M, it has made it hard for me to feel that I was enough for him. So there is just no trust there for this. I don't need anyone else to validate me that I am this or that, what I want to know is that he wants only me. That seems to be something that he has a problem with.

Do you feel that you need someone else to fill in that need for you or are you able to do it for yourself?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, August 24th (Sunday)

I am totally ok with who I am, but what he does makes me not ok with who I am inside of this M. In other words, I feel unwanted by him

yes, this has been a stickler with me. But it's not an ongoing or previous issue with him but still hit me hard when the affairs happened. And his current choice of wanting to stay here.

I guess I feel that the pull was a standard MO for me but now it's not. So, I recognize it right away when it happens because it's fleeting rather than all the time. It doesn't scare me but concerns me rather, because then I know I'm not totally healthy.

I just keep following it down the rabbit hole.
We talked in depth at IC about abandonment issues - really both parents did this to me and I really hate that it affects me at age freaking 48. But, those scars run deep, I suppose, and I'm trying to clean out every closet in my head. IC said, wow, you've had enough hassles in your life. ya think?

Does HL have abandonment issues?
Thank you for responding!

[This message edited by rachelc at 7:37 PM, August 24th (Sunday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, August 26th (Tuesday)

well, TG and all, if you're reading this - the "you started all this" - not sure how to interpret that when someone says they take full responsibility for their own affair but continues to say this.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, August 31st (Sunday)

Rachel,

Have you asked him what he means?


BBT,

Where have you been?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:37 AM, September 1st (Monday)

I'm here!

Just logged back on after a month away. We've had a whole month of H being off work and the kids being off school so I took some time off from SI to be present and in the moment with them all. It's been lovely, things are going really well. He's been living at the house while he's been on leave and he's moving back in properly this week.

We are currently trying to find a good MC and communication is a lot better.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:56 AM, September 1st (Monday)

Have you asked him what he means?

yes, that there's been enough suffering and he shouldn't have to suffer anymore when he hasn't been the sole instigator, I think was his words.

welcome back BBT! Glad things are going well.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, September 1st (Monday)

That is awesome news BBT!

Rachel,

What do you think about what he is saying to you?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
thisheremama
New Member
Member # 44521
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, September 8th (Monday)

Really struggling today. Going to make this question as general as possible,

How do you, as Madhatters, deal when one spouse in the relationship sees of actions of the other spouse "worse," so whenever you try to talk about their actions, it turns into a name-calling, blame game and they never take ownership of their actions or stop their actions because they aren't as "bad" as what you did?

So any discussion makes you feel so bad about yourself that you just ignore what you know that spouse is doing/has done because you just aren't up to hearing what a horrible person you are after 5+ years of feeling it every day.


Posts: 21 | Registered: Aug 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, September 8th (Monday)

THM,

That can be a common problem with madhatters. Are either of you in counseling or marriage counseling?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, September 8th (Monday)

TG,

What do you think about what he is saying to you?

just saw this...
Agree with him on the suffering.
I think he is saying to me that even though he takes responsibility for his actions, he wouldn't have done it had I not done it so why should he suffer for something he wouldn't have done had my actions not precipitated it.
Also, that he's certainly not gonna throw all his eggs in the marriage basket anymore. His job is meaningful to him and he wants more of that in his life.

oh, I really didn't answer the question. I think then that I'm not the most important thing in his life. Same as before all the A's. And I need to decide if I can live with this.

[This message edited by rachelc at 12:47 PM, September 8th (Monday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
thisheremama
New Member
Member # 44521
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, September 8th (Monday)

tired girl,

Thanks so much. Glad to see it's common with madhatters. Well, not glad, but you know what I mean.

We did two rounds of MC. One after DDay. And one after TT. I did IC for a while after the second round. He was supposed to do IC too but refused. We haven't done anything for at least 3 years.

Any time we discuss anything relating to his behaviors, he downplays it, or denies it (even when I have strong proof), rug-sweeps, or goes straight for name calling.

The latest confrontation ended with him telling me that I'm bad person, he doesn't trust me, and that his self-esteem is low from my A (which started 6 years ago/ended 5+ years ago) and he says my A is why he does the things he does now.

My guilt and sadness over what I did (which I take full responsibility for) makes me just keep my mouth shut most of the time. I do feel like what I did was worse. I hate myself for it.

We have a baby now. Things seemed to be going so well. I want to raise her in a healthy marriage. I worry that my actions 6 years ago are going to F up my child's life because, while my H and I are best friends and get along great in so many ways, there's still so much fucked up and this pain that's never going to go away (on both sides), and he's going to keep doing anything he wants because I know he's not going to stop. And I don't feel like I can demand it, since I had the A. (Even though, even before marriage, there was basically madhatter behavior.)

He won't go back to MC. I already asked. I'm just so sad and mad at myself. I don't know how to legitimize (or is there a better word?) the pain I'm feeling about what he's done in the relationship since what I've done is "worse." Or how to even discuss it without him bringing up my shit, bad mouthing me.

Appreciate any thoughts SO much.


Posts: 21 | Registered: Aug 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, September 8th (Monday)

rachel,
yes, that there's been enough suffering and he shouldn't have to suffer anymore when he hasn't been the sole instigator, I think was his words.

To me this reads that he wants to get on with life and doesn't want to deal with A stuff anymore. Does it sound that way to you possibly?


THM,

It sounds like you need to get back into counseling for yourself so that you can understand that having boundaries for yourself is a good and healthy thing. It is necessary. You don't have those and this is why this is continuing to happen in your M. Will you come out of this with your M intact, maybe not. But you can be healthier and happier in the end no matter what if you get yourself healthy. That is what is important and what will help you and your child in the end. What he does is ultimately up to him. Maybe he will follow your lead if he wants to save the M. Maybe not. Only time will tell. But you have to start with you. Big hugs, the beginning is always the hardest.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, September 8th (Monday)

TG - probably that too...


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
thisheremama
New Member
Member # 44521
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, September 8th (Monday)

Thanks TG,

I think you're right. II've said before on another forum that I think he denies most of it or rug-sweeps because he likes having the moral authority over me. I am still devastated at how much I hurt him. I really need to go back to IC. I want to be a strong example for my daughter. Right now, I'm more insecure, ashamed, weak and filled with anxiety than maybe ever. God, I want a do over on it ALL. Thanks again.


Posts: 21 | Registered: Aug 2014
Glassgirl13
Member
Member # 44702
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, September 12th (Friday)

I've posted bits of my story elsewhere but wanted to jump in here because it's one of the places I guess I actually fit.

I had an affair about 11-12 years ago. My husband never knew until I confessed to him about 9 years ago. He refused to go to counseling or really talk about it with me. He asked me maybe three questions and was done. I saw a counselor a few times but financially couldn't continue and felt kind of selfish for wanting to work on me when he didn't even want to invest in our marriage. Stupid, I know.

Fast forward about five years and he's acting distant and maybe depressed. I catch him sneaking a phone call and it's to his best friend. He tells me his miserable and wants to leave. He leaves that night, then goes out of town to a conference and while there texts with me some and basically says he'll keep trying but not with so many words, I don't think, more with the song, Close by Pete Yorn. We still never talk about it, or finances or anything of importance and I've long since learned I won't get anywhere even if I try asking.

A few years ago he started watching some kids. The boy was a friend of my son's and their divorced mother worked in a daycare so during the summer when my WH was off work he would watch them, sometimes at our house, sometimes at theirs because they have a big pool, so they didn't have to go to the day care all summer. It wasn't long before the other workers were spreading rumors that they were having an affair. He was furious and went to the owner and told him to tell his workers to stop the slander. About a year after that he actually did start pursuing a relationship with her. There were times I felt funny about it because her kids were rarely at our house anymore, he never talked to her on the phone in front of me (and I didn't realize how much he was on the phone with her) but he had no problems talking in front of me with another woman who we swap childcare with or having her daughter at our house. There were other things, but I always told myself he knew how bad it was, he'd never do that, I didn't have the right to ask what was going on or ask for what I needed, like him actually spending some time with me or holding my hand or whatever. When I did ask him to watch a movie with me it was like pulling teeth and when he finally agreed he stayed far away from me and fell asleep almost immediately. That hurt enough for me to know better than to ask again.

So, I got a phone call one morning from a guy telling me our spouses had been sexting. I confronted my husband that night and he told me that he wanted a divorce, he was miserable, he couldn't stand to be around me, and he left. He'd already basically been out of the house for two months before dog sitting (and apparently he actually was). We hardly talked or saw each other all weekend. The other woman's husband asked me to look at his phone records to see how often they'd actually talked on the phone because he couldn't see his wife's history and in doing so I realized he made about 10xs the number of phone calls to the kids' mom as he did to me. And there were other numbers that he was calling frequently and spending long periods of time on the phone talking. So four days after DDay1 I called him as he was leaving the OW's house from watching her kids after school and told him to take our kids to a friend's house and come home to talk. He did and this time he told me about the 2 year affair he'd had with her, and that there'd been another person as well during that time. He repeated that he wanted a divorce, didn't love me, was miserable, that he had tried to get over my affair but couldn't. I begged him to at least try for the sake of our kids. He finally left, went and talked to a friend who had a similar history who told him to get on his knees and pray and go see a counselor. So he came back and told me he would say it was over yet, called the other woman to tell her I knew and it was over (even though he'd been telling her the whole time he was leaving me) and he moved out for good.

We've been living apart for five months now. We didn't make a formal NC agreement, his actions of calling her on his own and then blocking her on his phone were reassuring to me. We were both in such shock it took about a month for us to each get started in IC. A week after DDay I saw that he'd called her and asked why. He said he'd really hurt her but implied that was it. I noticed some longer phone calls to a certain number and looked it up. I knew it was probably nothing but confronted him anyways and he explained the situation in a way that was very believable and said there was no one else. So I continued to trust him. Then in July my son said something about playing a video game with his friend and I asked when that was. He said the time they came over to fireworks and I thought I was going to throw up. So then I confronted WH about and he said he had contacted her and seen her twice, once with the kids and once without but nothing happened. Later in MC, which we did just so that I could ask questions about the affairs, he said that she saw him for what he is, a liar. And that she'd told him she didn't want to wait anymore for someone who was just lying to her (or something to that effect). I can only imagine that she'd given him some sort of ultimatum about leaving me and starting back up with her because otherwise why would she see him twice? He said he'd contacted her because he was lonely. I'm sure he missed her and what they had, fantasy as it was.

We agreed to a controlled separation arrangement, or rather the counselor asked questions, I answered, he agreed with whatever I said. We'll revisit the relationship again around the six month mark. But last Friday was my son's 8th birthday and we had a party here. Afterwards I had to leave and do some work so he was here with the boys before taking them to his place (which doesn't have internet access). He then left his computer at our house Wednesday to let something download so I took the opportunity to look at his search history. I know he does most of on his phone, like he texts quite a bit, and none of that I have access to unless I were to ask and I never have because I don't know where we actually stand and when he's asked by the counselor he says he doesn't see a future for us. In his history I found that he'd looked up divorce without a lawyer in our state. Apparently after the party as he was sitting on the couch looking at his laptop, hopefully not while I was standing there talking with him :(

I feel like my world is dropping out again. I realize it could just be a momentary thing, but I honestly don't know. He says that his desire for intimacy with me (not sex, still had that but it definitely became sex, like we were fuck buddies, looking back on it now) died when I told him about my affair.

I don't know if he can come back from that. He's in a deep depression and has been for years, even feeling suicidal at times, but is such an expert in compartmentalizing that it only rarely slipped out and was noticeable by the people who know him better (although I'm not sure anyone really KNOWS him). Between the affair fog, the depression fog, and the years of bitterness towards me I don't know if there's hope.

There's so much more but that's probably already too much for this thread.

Has anyone else had a similar experience with a better outcome?


His DDay: 11/05 when I confessed my '02 affair
My DDays: 4/17/14 (sexting), 4/21/14 (SAs and EAs)
Kiddos: 10 and 8

Not in limbo any more. He wants a divorce. Or maybe not.

Chin up, eyes ahead, one foot in front of the other.


Posts: 74 | Registered: Aug 2014
burntashes
Member
Member # 29446
Default  Posted: 4:09 AM, September 14th (Sunday)

Glassgirl13,

Sorry to hear you are in such a painful situation. I can relate somewhat. After I confessed my A to my husband, he had multiple hook ups with other women while still living with me and fluctuating back and forth for 2 years. The third year no more hook ups, but the verbal and physical abuse continued, to the point that I moved out with our DD. He became suicidal and I talked to him on the phone all night. He asked me to move back but with no promise that we can rebuild our relationship. The whole time I was plagued by guilt for how much I've hurt him and feeling I deserved whatever he needed to dish out. Now at 4 years out he's completely detached and said we are not married, that he would have left if it wasn't for DD, but we should live together to give DD a complete home, but he doesn't feel and will never want to feel romantic love with me again.

I regret moving back in with him. We coordinate and get along fine, but whenever I think about the fact that there's no marriage in this, that he feels stuck being here and clearly does not care to be with me for me, it takes me down a deep pit of depression in a heartbeat. There's no affection and last time we had sex after months of none destroyed my progress of detaching after he told me he will never have a real relationship with me. I've tried and tried but just can't find peace in living in this arrangement for the rest of my life. I find myself wishing to be divorced, to have my own place without his presence so I can start moving on with my life. For some reason I find it hard to tell him how strongly I feel this way, although I have told him before that I don't want to live in a loveless marriage.

In your situation you have found out repeatedly that he lied and continued contact with OW. Add to that his telling MC that he can't get over your A after 9 years. That must hurt. Have you asked him whether he wants to be married to you or divorce? A very honest conversation is needed at this point. For the M to continue, he would need to want to be with you for you on some level, and if he doesn't, can you see yourself living the rest of your life with his attitude of caring about not hurting the OW more than how much you are hurt? I've been told on SI that even though you cheated first, doesn't mean you don't get to have boundaries or ask for commitment front your husband. I hope things get better for you.


Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Daughter
LTA, not divorced with no R
I confessed PA 6/10. Detailed confession: 9/10. All the truth 9/11.

Posts: 381 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: California
Glassgirl13
Member
Member # 44702
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, September 14th (Sunday)

burntashes, thanks for your reply. I honestly don't know how you do it. It's hard enough not living with him but interacting regularly and knowing that he feels so disconnected. He sometimes acts just as friendly and playful as he ever did, waving to me when we happen to pass while driving, calling to tell me something that happened to him. But it seems like maybe there's less and less of that. I don't know. I really think in your situation though I'd need to move on. He's made his decision, you need to make yours. A loveless marriage teaches your daughter nothing good about what a relationship should be. And you and your husband are stuck, so to speak. I would think it would make dealing with your own issues and moving on almost impossible.

You're right, we need to have a talk. I've been holding out until date we set out in our controlled separation agreement to discuss the status of the relationship. I don't know if he is also or he's just feeling so depressed and just trying to survive that he's not pursuing anything overtly. But I can't live like this for the next several weeks waiting. I tried to talk to him about some texting we'd done the evening after I asked more questions about his affair. I ended up trying to explain some of why I thought I'd had my affair (not about him). Really bad idea to try to do that via text. I think he misunderstood a lot of what I was saying and I realized he's, not surprisingly because he didn't want any details, made a lot of false assumptions about my affair that are worse than need to be. I felt panicky until I was able to talk to him about it, a week and a half later (my life/work has been crazy and I barely was keeping my head above water). I had just found the divorce stuff on his computer and I was falling apart. I tried to talk to him at a really bad time, when the kids kept coming around. It didn't go well. But he also didn't know what I was talking about and didn't remember the messaging. He was clearly upset in the texts, how could he just forget about them? He seemed genuinely confused. We'd also discussed that we need to tell our kids what's going on. They keep asking when he'll be done living at the other house and my older son mentioned that with me living here and him living there it's kind of like how divorced families do it

Anyway, I rather angrily left it with him to let me know when he was ready to talk. That hasn't happened yet. I may not be able to wait much longer though because if I do, I'll get to that point where I feel like I'm exploding with anxiety and fear and I won't be able to control my emotions well enough to actually talk.

If he can't ever love me again then this needs to end. But I don't know how long we both need to wait for enough fog to clear so that he can really know for sure. I suspect though that because the hurt and dislike of being with me are part of what pushed him to his affairs, he's much less likely to come out of his fog with a sudden revelation that he wants to be with me the rest of his life. I can't help but be angry with him for his total unwillingness to deal with it and trying to just will it away. The fucked up thing (well one of many) is that we both have counseling degrees, he's a school counselor but still. FOO shit has such a powerful hold sometimes. I'm realizing anytime I tried to get close or move into areas that made him uncomfortable he shut me down completely. He wanted intimacy, as evidenced by all his hours of friendly chatting, sexting (shared some personal FOO stuff with her I know, not sure about the others), and the affairs he was looking for intimacy but he doesn't really know how to do it and never even gave me a chance. So yeah, I had an affair, but I'm pissed that I spent 17 years with a man who wouldn't let me in. And when it was really shitty after my confession and we had two small kids, my health was shot (a long, slow road to get functioning again), I was miserable, too. But I finally realized that love isn't just something you feel, it's a choice you make every day so I chose to love him even when I didn't feel it and over time the feelings came back, too. But by then he was so distant from me he wouldn't kiss me, hold my hand, sit with me and watch a show. He would still have sex with me (but not really kiss me and I thought it was just because I must have bad breath from my sickness, nope, it was him). He's really sad that he didn't deal with his shit years ago, too, but I'm not sure that realizing he should have now is going to change how he ends up feeling. And I'm pretty sure he's not making the same choice I made to love despite the feelings.

This just sucks. If it's going to be over I just want it over but at the same time I want to know that I did everything I could to give it one last shot.


His DDay: 11/05 when I confessed my '02 affair
My DDays: 4/17/14 (sexting), 4/21/14 (SAs and EAs)
Kiddos: 10 and 8

Not in limbo any more. He wants a divorce. Or maybe not.

Chin up, eyes ahead, one foot in front of the other.


Posts: 74 | Registered: Aug 2014
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, September 29th (Monday)

let's talk resentment: you know, I have no idea how or if my husband is healing. That is his thing.

However, I can say for a fact that he didn't heal after my affair or between his own affairs or they wouldn't have happened. So, I would like to not have resentment about his lack of healing and work on himself during that time.

I always say to myself, if I am trying to heal and become a better person, or at least attempting to do it and not hurting him, why didn't he?

This is more I have to accept. That he just didn't do it.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
PrtyInPink
Member
Member # 44148
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, September 29th (Monday)

My BH didn't heal from my EA. He was basically a different person for 2 years. I just recently found out about his revenge affair that happened at the tail end of his 2 years craziness, and it continued as an EA for another 3 years. He claims he kept her around "just in case". I think he was afraid I'd have another A and he'd have someone as backup in case he needed to be "even" with me again. He hasn't healed and I don't think he ever will. Honestly thinking D is in our future.


Me: 30ish Him: 30ish (99% sure he has NPD)
Together 14 yrs, Married 9 yrs
His #1 EA D-day 10/20/09
His #2 PA/EA D-day 7/11/14
My PA D-day 10/21/09
My brain says leave, my heart says stay

Posts: 308 | Registered: Jul 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, September 30th (Tuesday)

Rachel,
At the beginning of your post you say that it is his thing but by the end of your post you are pointing your finger at him and asking why you have to accept it if he doesn't.

At some point youhave to look inward and quit looking at him all the time for what you should do or shouldn't do. What he does doesn't determine yourhealing.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, October 1st (Wednesday)

TG - I'm referring to the no healing he did after mine and between his. Not now. I resent that he didn't do this. It was his thing. He didn't do it. Already in the past. i have to make peace with that and I am having resentment that he didn't do it.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Glassgirl13
Member
Member # 44702
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, October 11th (Saturday)

I need madhatters' perspective on this. The quick back story. I had an affair about 11-12 years ago. I confessed it to my husband about 2 years later, after we had a child. He asked about three questions, who it was, did we have sex, not sure what else, and that was it. I asked if he would get counseling with me or by himself, he said no. It really never came up, except for a few occasions where he said something to the effect that he would have left me if we didn't have a child together. Fast forward about four years ago I caught him talking on the phone to a friend (guy friend) and he confessed he was miserable and wanted to leave, he was depressed and didn't care if he saw anyone again except for the kids. He went away to a conference for a few days and during that time kind of came around. As in he told me to look up this song, Close by Pete Yorn, and seemed better. We might have talked indirectly a bit. This was the best I could do. I learned a long time ago that if he didn't want to go "there," wherever that was, marriage, finances, anything, he wasn't going regardless of what I said or did. So I'd ask, get turned down, walk away and not push.

Then I find out he's sexting with someone, which leads to the discovery of a two year affair with someone I should have seen was going on, and a confession from him about another brief affair during that time, too (my only consolation is that he not only cheated on me but on his "second chance," too). There were also other betrayals, emotional, and more recently he lied about something because it was shameful to him. But the lie hurt worse than any of the other things I've uncovered so far and much worse than the actual thing he was hiding.

Since I found out he's answered my questions so that I can move forward but has not offered information and has said in various ways that he doesn't see a future with me, he cares about me but doesn't love me, or when he flipped out the other night, couldn't wait to be done with me.

I triggered one of his big fears the other night and he unloaded on me with cursing and name calling like he's never done before. He apologized the next day via text for being so out of control, said I didn't deserve that kind of disrespect and sorry for the pain he's causing and has a lot of anger mostly at himself, that he's having a hard time controlling. Later we talked on the phone about telling the kids finally and filing for divorce. He came over shortly after that and hugged me, apologized again, said I don't deserve to be in limbo and should move on and be with someone I'm not always having to wonder about, among other things. He offered to bring me food. Then the next night he had to come drop something off and the boys started jumping on him and I was trying not to cry (I'd also had only a few hours of sleep over the past two days because of my job) and he noticed and reached over and rubbed my foot. Then he called the next day just to say hi, called again around dinner time and said he'd grilled food and made a plate for me if I wanted it. It's confusing to me and I told him that yesterday (via text of course). I said that if he's doing it because he feels sorry for me (I have had more trauma thanks to his betrayals in the past 10 days over this affair and possibly in life than at any other point and I'm feeling extremely anxious, tired, barely functional at times) then to stop it. It makes me wonder if he's feeling differently towards me, and if he's not, which is what I suspect, then it's just making it harder for me. He said he's conflicted, he's sorry, he cares about me on many levels.

I said I'm okay with conflicted and if there's a part of him that cares for me I'll take that. Just not the pity party that makes him feel better while he plans his exit strategy. He said it wasn't pity. I'm the person that helps him feel human and a little grounded. Maybe because I'm the only person in his life who really knows him and what's going on.

This feels so complicated because he has all the crap from my affair he never dealt with and still doesn't want to know about. He usually says he doesn't care about what happened because he doesn't care about me anymore or who I'm with, etc. Part of me wonders if it's less painful for him to not care than to deal with it, being the master avoider that he is. Of course I can't change that for him if he doesn't want to change it for himself.

But I guess I'm wondering if it's any different because of our madhatter status. I may be asking you all to read his mind I guess I would just appreciate hearing how it was/is for others in this situation, how the past hurts affected the current one.


His DDay: 11/05 when I confessed my '02 affair
My DDays: 4/17/14 (sexting), 4/21/14 (SAs and EAs)
Kiddos: 10 and 8

Not in limbo any more. He wants a divorce. Or maybe not.

Chin up, eyes ahead, one foot in front of the other.


Posts: 74 | Registered: Aug 2014
Cherry Tomato
Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, November 4th (Tuesday)

For BH's who became WH's, what were your reasons for choosing your OP? Was it then someone that you had feelings for or just a trist? And if you ended it & attempted R with your W, how did it or is it going? Do you feel like your W is responsible for your A? Did deal with your issues surrounding your A & how it affected you both? If so, how did you cope with that?

These may sound like redundant questions or ones I should already know the answer to, but I am looking for a fresh male perspective. I am 5 1/2 years into R & my H is really struggling again, which is making me question everything all over again too.


FWW/FBW(me)-43; FBH/FWH(him)-44; DDay 12/25/07; M 18 yrs, 1 DD
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1163 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
Cherry Tomato
Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, November 6th (Thursday)

e is saying to me that even though he takes responsibility for his actions, he wouldn't have done it had I not done it so why should he suffer for something he wouldn't have done had my actions not precipitated it.
Also, that he's certainly not gonna throw all his eggs in the marriage basket anymore.

Rachelc, precisely where I am with my H.

Let's talk resentment: you know, I have no idea how or if my husband is healing. That is his thing.
However, I can say for a fact that he didn't heal after my affair or between his own affairs or they wouldn't have happened. So, I would like to not have resentment about his lack of healing and work on himself during that time.

I always say to myself, if I am trying to heal and become a better person, or at least attempting to do it and not hurting him, why didn't he?

This is more I have to accept. That he just didn't do it.

This is also true, except I know he has done zero to heal himself. That is not on him, it's on me. Well, we all know how this will work out for him. It's taken me so very long to come to grips with this reality & know I must accept that he may never change.

[This message edited by Cherry Tomato at 2:06 PM, November 6th (Thursday)]


FWW/FBW(me)-43; FBH/FWH(him)-44; DDay 12/25/07; M 18 yrs, 1 DD
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1163 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, November 6th (Thursday)

Welcome cherry tomato,

Why do you say that him not healing himself is on you?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Cherry Tomato
Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, November 6th (Thursday)

Tired girl, I'm not saying that...my husband says it. Which is precisely why he isn't healing at all.


FWW/FBW(me)-43; FBH/FWH(him)-44; DDay 12/25/07; M 18 yrs, 1 DD
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1163 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, November 7th (Friday)

Ahhhh, ok. So he has done nothing to heal or fix himself for what he did? Are you willing to stay in a M like that?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Cherry Tomato
Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, November 7th (Friday)

Ahhhh, ok. So he has done nothing to heal or fix himself for what he did? Are you willing to stay in a M like that?

tired girl, I debate this every hour of every day it seems. I love him, but honestly I don't know if this M is still healthy for me. I have a daughter who would be crushed if we separated (again) & as with most people, it would be a huge financial struggle.

If he gets help & works on his issues, I would more than willing to stay & help anyway I can. The thing is, he needs to muscle up & help me too. He give me zero emotional support & I need it. I stuff everything so far down inside that I feel sometimes I will explode. I have deep-seated issues from childhood that can't be ignored & if I don't feel safe with him, I tend to revert back to the controlling, untrusting self I was before. I don't want to be that woman anymore...she lived in a very dark place.

I need to get back in IC. I know this. Money has been tight & I exhausted my "freebies" while back.


FWW/FBW(me)-43; FBH/FWH(him)-44; DDay 12/25/07; M 18 yrs, 1 DD
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1163 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, November 7th (Friday)

You healing and fixing yourself is not reliant on what he is doing. If you cannot go to IC, you can read books and go to meetings that fit what is going on with you to help work on your issues. You have to get healthy for yourself, not because he is going to help you or your M is going to survive.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Cherry Tomato
Member
Member # 19255
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, November 14th (Friday)

Started back in IC this week. It will help me at least get my thoughts straight & really work on my healing. I will admit I had gotten lazy about doing this the past couple of years & now I am seeing the further damage from it.

So yesterday, I emailed my H letting him know that as part of my personal healing, I want to let go of some resentment I have been holding on to. I decided to let go of my resentment over his A. It is just time for me to do that as I know some things won't ever change about how he & I see that situation & it's not healthy for me to dwell on it any longer. It felt good to put it down on paper that I am letting it go. I want to...I need to.

I didn't expect any kind of response or reaction from my H, but he did express some more frustration with me. Basically, I am a horrible unrtrustworthy person who he just doesn't think he can ever believe in again. OK...that's his choice. It won't stop me from pushing forward with my healing. I won't let it & I will focus on fixing the broken mess of a soul I've been carrying around my entire life. I got one life & I choose to live better. After all the negative texts from H last night, I didn't think I would feel positive at all today, but oddly enough I do.

Don't get me wrong...I know he's hurting & has no clue how to push forward with me right now. We hit a huge wall this past month & I don't really know what will end up happening. I don't blame him for how he feels...those are his to work through & find some peace.


FWW/FBW(me)-43; FBH/FWH(him)-44; DDay 12/25/07; M 18 yrs, 1 DD
Separated 8/6/08; H moved back home 1/6/09; In R 4/24/09
"You and I’ll ride tonight till the past is out of sight. We don't have to look back now." ----Puddle of Mudd

Posts: 1163 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Wonderful New Happy Place
MCJLM
New Member
Member # 40283
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, November 19th (Wednesday)

This is my first post in the madhatters thread and I never thought I would be here. My situation is tricky and so very convoluded. I had an EA/PA with my boss 2 and a half years ago. My H found out and contacted the other BS. They never stopped contact and had their own EA/PA over the last year. I found a new job and haven't had contact with my ex-AP since I left my job. (Almost 1 year ago and contact was business only after the affair had come out, which I really abided by). All of the contact between my H and the other BS was hidden and lied about. It started out to monitor my ex-AP and me but then turned into their own relationship. He confessed after her H (my ex-AP) found out. This was 6 weeks ago. He claims he has maintained NC,and has given me full transparency, for what I know to be. During the uncovering of my affair, he became a very good detective, so anything could go and I wouldn't know the difference.
We have been talking, but he isn't sure he wants to be married. We are just "trying to figure it out". I have spent 2 years in IC and have really figured out my "whys". He seems to be still attached in many ways to the feelings he had during his affair and the fact that he doesn't have them with me. He has been honest in sharing his feelings, (again, what do I know,) and is sorry for hurting me and lying, etc., but said he has taken away some good things from the affair. These would be "feeling" again, looking forward to things, laughing, etc. He does not have many, or really, any friends and she was his only "friend" for a very long time. He still values their friendship and feels she helped him out of a really bad place. (my doing from my affair, understandably so). He now says he doesn't miss her but having someone to talk to. He sees so many negatives in me yet still sees so many positives in her and what he took from the affair. He says this is not specific to her, but he liked a lot of things he felt during his affair. We communicate regularly and he is there to help me process his affair.
After being through this as a WS, it helps me have a level of understanding to all of this. At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see an affair for what it is, no matter what circumstance, and I feel he is placing his affair in a different ballpark. He says the right things about it being non-reality based, but I feel he is chasing to find a connection like he had with her during his affair. Whether this is with me or someone else, I feel put in a very difficult position. One, that type of connection just isn't real. The heightened sense of emotions, everything during an affair is just not 100 percent real. I don't think he sees that because he says they were "real" with each other, going through a horrible time with raw emotions, etc. He really cared/cares about her. I am all about making connections, etc. with him and I have been trying to for a very long time and he has been unavailable. I assumed it was from him being in pain from my affair when, in reality, he was in his own. I don't feel he has given enough credit to the impact his affair has on where we are today. I know the bomb I dropped on our marriage first, so I am not discounting that, but he has been the BS that has created distance and kept me in limbo for well over a year.
We have tried MC on and off and still go now. I am hesitant because he attended MC while in his affair and lied there, so for me, it brings a lot of crappy feelings. He has been to IC but stopped a long time ago. Says he wants to go back but to someone different, but has yet to go.
I have put demands of full transparency but that's about it. I am trying to respect his healing and my part in having my own affair.

We have had honest conversations about our marriage and what went wrong, in addition to his affair and mine too. We have done a decent job of going back and forth between all three things. I just feel like because of his affair and how recent it was, and his mindset about it, it is very difficult to be able to juggle all of this. I feel I have recovered from mine personally, I know he probably has not and now is in this new situation. He is not sure he loves me.
How can there ever be this great "connection" like he just had from me when he is still so conflicted about our marriage? And now I am too.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated......


Posts: 16 | Registered: Aug 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 10:53 PM, November 19th (Wednesday)

I don't post here often though I read a lot. Being a MH is it's own special kind of hurt. So starters you must separate your A and his A. One line stood out to me when you said you dropped the bomb first. Well yes you did then he went and dropped another one that wiped out any foundations you had been trying to build. So you are both back at step one in your new roles. You must be able to still work on you and deal with the pain of being betrayed as well without blaming that betrayal on your actions. It seems you are using your insight as a FWW to see his actions for what they are, and that's good. It will help you to call them for what they really are. He needs to go into IC, or seek help somewhere to handle his pain in a healthy way and to figure out what in him made him capable of his own A. TBH if you feel like MC should be shelved until he accepts what he actually did then you should shelve it. MC does not work when someone is lying and he has done nothing but.

What has he said about his actions? Is he blaming you or himself? If he is talking about how real they were and their connection it certainly sounds like he is not exactly remorseful and is that is the case what are you doing for you? The other MH's will be along to give you sound and sage advice as well, hang in there.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"There are times when our reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind." Patrick Rothfuss


Posts: 2802 | Registered: Oct 2012
PenitentMan
Member
Member # 43174
Default  Posted: 9:04 AM, November 20th (Thursday)

So, BW says that when she was talking to someone online 9 years ago, when we were living another life in another town, that technically it's an OEA and that I'm really a mad hatter and suddenly I can't post on anything in wayward with a stop sign? Say it ain't so? Because I don't feel betrayed.. She says she stopped talking to him when she realized what it was becoming. I knew she spent a lot of time online - even when I wasn't working I remember it was hard getting her off the computer to do anything. I've been as wayward as they come and I feel like I've done some good on some of those stop sign posts. In many cases I know exactly what the person is going through - I want to share my experience with them.... and they want other waywards such as myself to do so.
I'm not sure I understand this particular policy/guideline, but if it's true, it's a bummer.
And if her slapping OEA on it really does mean I'm now a BS, what do I do about that knowledge? 9 years is a long time and we clearly had issues. It didn't give her the right to do what she did anymore than my EA #1. If anything her experience has helped her understand how I could've done what I did. It was really the PA #2 which I was not emotional/foggy about that pissed her off. That was something where the four of us together crossed boundaries and then I took it further despite her cautioning me many times, quite clearly, that she didn't and would never approve of anything between me and AP by ourselves.
So, I feel like my A's were "worse" and her thing was no big deal, and understandable considering I was putting my job before her at the time and spent long hours at it. I really don't feel any differently and I certainly didn't have my A's because of it - It was not even remotely a thought in my mind. But now that she's calling it an OEA, I forgive her and it doesn't change anything for me. Maybe had she been physical it would be a bigger deal to me.

So... what does all this mean?


Me: FWH (39)
Her: BW (34)
DDay 1: March 2013 (EA/PA that *I* rugswept)
DDay 2: April 2014 (PA with double betrayal. OW was wife's friend)
Married: 13 Years
1 Handsome and Amazing Son (10)

Posts: 477 | Registered: Apr 2014
Ayla
Member
Member # 45275
Default  Posted: 10:38 PM, November 26th (Wednesday)

MCJLM,

I concur that your marriage is starting over. I would try to read the articles and boooks suggested for a BS as if you have never read them before. Like a textbook or research. I would start with the fog. At 6 weeks out your husband is still in it especially if he is openly discussing his feelings for the OW outweighing his feelings for you.

I read here that for every month of an affair the fog can last about a week. I have found that to be quite true in my case. Go back to the basics.

I can only imagine how odd you must feel knowing your AP's wife had an affair with your husband. Trust me I hold no judgement but, this just screams revenge affair and revenge on your AP at the top of my intuitions lungs. The dynamics of this boggle the mind. However, there is STILL nothing new under the sun. There is a path out of it and into healing.

Take care of your physical needs. Try to stay focused on whatever the next right thing is. I am sure more experienced MH will chime in soon. You are reaching out for help, that is an excellent thing. Keep posting.


Madhatter M 16 years and counting.
One Day at a Time.

Posts: 103 | Registered: Oct 2014 | From: Just outside the fog
Topic Posts: 486